Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:34 AM - Re: AC 520 (jlyle)
2. 06:44 AM - Re: Re: AC 520 (B777atkins@aol.com)
3. 07:26 AM - Re: Re: AC 520 (Jim Crunkleton)
4. 10:28 AM - Re: Re: AC 520 (Bruce Campbell)
5. 11:42 AM - Re: Checklists anyone? (css nico)
6. 11:51 AM - Re: Checklists anyone? (css nico)
7. 01:03 PM - Re: Checklists anyone? (Tom Fisher)
8. 02:58 PM - Re: Checklists anyone? (Bruce Campbell)
9. 10:27 PM - Re: Checklists anyone? (YOURTCFG@aol.com)
Message 1
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--> Commander-List message posted by: jlyle <jlyle@thomsonaviation.com>
After a great deal of work and help form Morris and several others, I am about
to get N11L back in the air in a few days. We had hoped to have it ready for the
recent TCFG Fly In.
However, we couldn't get it ready in time.
With the help of my son who is an A&P IA we have spent nearly a year restoring
our 520 to better than new condition. He operates the FBO in Thomson, Georgia
(HQU).
Almost everything on the aircraft has been replaced and/or rebuilt.
In addition to the mechanical side we trimed it off with new paint and a new panel
with a Garmin 430 and an Stec autopilot.
It looks like a show plane!
N11L was a new project begun last year to restore it to the best 520 in the world.
I will get some photo's as soon as we complete the detailing of the engines.
Now, I need some help/advice from experienced 520 flyers.
I have very few hours in geared engines and could use any advice/tips on flying
the 520.
maniford pressure/RPM, speeds etc.
I have copied some information from the TCFG website.
However, now I want to pick the brains of some experienced flyers with real world
experience.
Thanks,
James Lyle
N11l
Thomson, Georgia
> ==================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> ==================================================
>
> Today's complete Commander-List Digest can be also be found in either
> of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
> formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked
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> text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list/Digest.Commander-List.2003-10-20.html
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> http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list/Digest.Commander-List.2003-10-20.txt
>
>
> ================================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ================================================
>
>
> Commander-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Mon 10/20/03: 7
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 07:02 AM - Re: ANYBODY OUT THERE?? (Randy Dettmer, AIA)
> 2. 09:04 AM - Re: ANYBODY OUT THERE?? (YOURTCFG@aol.com)
> 3. 04:34 PM - Re: Checklists anyone? (W J R HAMILTON)
> 4. 05:41 PM - Re: Checklists anyone? (Bill Bow)
> 5. 06:53 PM - Re: Checklists anyone? (Chris Schuermann)
> 6. 07:29 PM - Re: Checklists anyone? (W J R HAMILTON)
> 7. 08:50 PM - Re: Checklists anyone? (Tom Fisher)
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:02:18 AM PST US
> From: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer@charter.net>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: ANYBODY OUT THERE??
>
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer@charter.net>
>
> Great trip this weekend ..San Luis Obispo to SanDiego (Lindbergh Field...I
> love that airport). Spent two days in Mexico visiting our daughter. Son
> Todd flew in from Denver to meet us. Gorgeous flight home last
> night...twinkling stars, lites of the LA basin. Ain't it great..!!
>
> Randy Dettmer
> N6253X/680F
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <YOURTCFG@aol.com>
> Subject: Commander-List: ANYBODY OUT THERE??
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
> >
> > HI KIDS.
> >
> > Pretty quite. I flew triple 2 to Mccminville Oregon (home
> of
> > the Spruce Goose) yesterday to take another look at a derelict 500 parked
> > there. Had a great trip. Wonderful weather the last couple of days.
> Flew up
> > the gorge and around Moultnoma falls. Had my neighbors along.
> > Sue has retired from her job (Yea!) Friday was her last day. We
> don't
> > know what the future holds for us, but we trust God. We will be through
> FL
> > next week briefly as we board a cruse ship for a week. The president of
> the
> > Navion Society and his wife will be going as well as another airport
> buddy. It
> > should really be fun.
> > Anybody else flying there Commander?? jb
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:04:34 AM PST US
> From: YOURTCFG@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: ANYBODY OUT THERE??
>
> --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 10/20/2003 7:02:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> rcdettmer@charter.net writes:
>
> > Ain't it great..!!
>
> AMEN!! jb
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 04:34:26 PM PST US
> From: W J R HAMILTON <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
>
> --> Commander-List message posted by: W J R HAMILTON <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
>
> All,
> There is a nice little "official" 500A checklist, I have an original, nice
> Rockwell blue cover and all, if anybody wants a copy, I guess I could scan
> each page, and send it.
> It would be a good start for anybody creating their own version.
> Cheers,
> Bill BIll Hamilton.
>
>
> At 23:24 10/19/03 -0700, you wrote:
> >--> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
> >
> >I am a convert. Never used a checklist. Never wrote a clearance down either.
> >But I see the dangers in not doing it. Especially now that more brain cells
> >are on pension than on duty. The little bastards flirt with calcium, I
> >guess.
> >Nico
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> >To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> >
> >
> > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher"
> ><tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> > >
> > > The longer I am in the game (35 yrs.) the MORE I rely on check lists and
> > > they always serve a purpose, that's why they exist.
> > > Don't let familiarity with any aircraft stop the use of check lists....
> > > please.
> > > Tom F.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Alan Kucheck" <akucheck@hotmail.com>
> > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Alan Kucheck"
> > > <akucheck@hotmail.com>
> > > >
> > > > I am sure most of the veterans on this list are well past checklist and
> > > > all. But I'm still just starting out and for me a checklist still
> > > > serves a purpose. I have created one for N811D, my 1962 500A Colemill
> > > > Twin Commander. I have pulled together information from the 500A flight
> > > > manual, the Colemill supplement to the AFM, and advice from several
> > > > folks I have flown with or spoken to.
> > > >
> > > > It is available at http://www.kucheck.net/Aircraft/Checklist.html.
> > > >
> > > > Any feedback, corrections, suggestions wil be appreciated. Feel free to
> > > > take the doc and modify it to suit your needs.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks in advance,
> > > >
> > > > Alan
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> COMMUNICATIONS
> CHANGES: All Recipients Please Note.
> The new email address for all Glenalmond Group Companies, W.J.R.Hamilton,
> Fighter Flights Internet Services and Warbirds.Net is:
> <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> <fighterf@ozemail.com.au> will remain valid for about three months.
> All phone numbers remain unchanged, but changes will take place in about
> three months, the date will be notified.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:41:50 PM PST US
> From: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
>
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
>
> As someone who makes a living from this industry, I would say NEVER stop
> using a checklist.
>
> bilbo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "W J R HAMILTON" <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
>
>
> --> Commander-List message posted by: W J R HAMILTON
> <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
>
> All,
> There is a nice little "official" 500A checklist, I have an original, nice
> Rockwell blue cover and all, if anybody wants a copy, I guess I could scan
> each page, and send it.
> It would be a good start for anybody creating their own version.
> Cheers,
> Bill BIll Hamilton.
>
>
> At 23:24 10/19/03 -0700, you wrote:
> >--> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
> >
> >I am a convert. Never used a checklist. Never wrote a clearance down
> either.
> >But I see the dangers in not doing it. Especially now that more brain cells
> >are on pension than on duty. The little bastards flirt with calcium, I
> >guess.
> >Nico
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> >To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> >
> >
> > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher"
> ><tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> > >
> > > The longer I am in the game (35 yrs.) the MORE I rely on check lists and
> > > they always serve a purpose, that's why they exist.
> > > Don't let familiarity with any aircraft stop the use of check lists....
> > > please.
> > > Tom F.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Alan Kucheck" <akucheck@hotmail.com>
> > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Alan Kucheck"
> > > <akucheck@hotmail.com>
> > > >
> > > > I am sure most of the veterans on this list are well past checklist
> and
> > > > all. But I'm still just starting out and for me a checklist still
> > > > serves a purpose. I have created one for N811D, my 1962 500A Colemill
> > > > Twin Commander. I have pulled together information from the 500A
> flight
> > > > manual, the Colemill supplement to the AFM, and advice from several
> > > > folks I have flown with or spoken to.
> > > >
> > > > It is available at http://www.kucheck.net/Aircraft/Checklist.html.
> > > >
> > > > Any feedback, corrections, suggestions wil be appreciated. Feel free
> to
> > > > take the doc and modify it to suit your needs.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks in advance,
> > > >
> > > > Alan
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> COMMUNICATIONS
> CHANGES: All Recipients Please Note.
> The new email address for all Glenalmond Group Companies, W.J.R.Hamilton,
> Fighter Flights Internet Services and Warbirds.Net is:
> <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> <fighterf@ozemail.com.au> will remain valid for about three months.
> All phone numbers remain unchanged, but changes will take place in about
> three months, the date will be notified.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:53:51 PM PST US
> From: Chris Schuermann <cschuerm@cox.net>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
>
> --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann <cschuerm@cox.net>
>
>
> Bill Bow wrote:
> > As someone who makes a living from this industry, I would say NEVER stop
> > using a checklist.
>
> Amen brother Bow!
>
> Okay, the topic does remind me of something, so I'll share in hopes of
> providing some amusement...
>
> A couple years ago, a relative came to town for a visit. Said in-law
> had never been in a "little airplane" before and asked if I'd take him
> for a ride. Anyway, we went out for a short sight-seeing jaunt around
> the countryside, and as always, I tried to be as professional as
> possible and tried to give a smooth, stress-free, enjoyable ride to this
> newbie. Although I tried to inject a little conversation about the
> scenery and explain some of the stuff about the airplane, I noticed that
> my passenger remained mostly silent during the flight.
> When we got back to the house, his wife asked him if he enjoyed the
> ride. He just mumbled that it was "nice". After I left the room, he
> explained further (my wife was also there) that he was pretty
> uncomfortable that I was having to read the instructions all of the time
> and thought that it would be better once I'd learned how to fly. My
> wife literally fell off her chair laughing and eventually managed to
> regain enough composure to explain the concept of checklists to the poor
> fellow.....
>
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:29:54 PM PST US
> From: W J R HAMILTON <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
>
> --> Commander-List message posted by: W J R HAMILTON <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
>
> Chris and all,
> This reminds me of many years ago, before there were virtually standard
> rank insignia on civil uniforms, 4 bars for Captains etc.
> British United Airlines ( now long gone) was a consolidation of a number of
> smaller carriers, largely put together by the rightly famous/infamous
> Freddy Laker, and based at Southend in UK.
>
> Some bright spark decided to "rationalised" rankings.
>
> Captains of "big" aeroplanes would carry 4 bars on their uniform, smaller
> aircraft Captains 3 bars, and cross channel car freighters, the old Bristol
> "Frightener" only 2 bars. First Officers would in each case wear 1 or 2 bars.
>
> There was an alarming drop off in traffic, to the very great benefit of the
> competition.
>
> In an early example of a "public relations" survey, it was determined that
> customers were reluctant to fly BUA cross channel services, because "their
> pilots were not as experienced" as the competition.
>
> So now everybody from the Seneca "Captain" up seems to wear 4 bars.
>
> Cheers,
> Bill Hamilton.
>
> PS After 40 years/25,000 or so hours, I need checklists. Beware the truism
> "familiarity breeds contempt. You are only as good as your last sector. No
> pilot who rigidly adheres to proper checklists and a proper checklist
> attitude will land gear up, or take off with the fuel off.
>
> Down here we had a most amazing accident a while ago. A hot house cadet
> pilot graduate had an engine failure, it was quite recoverable by
> switching on an electric boost pump. The pump was never turned on.
> In the interviews the pilot described how she had been taught to "touch"
> the various controls in a simulated emergency, and that is what she did,
> "touch" them, and no more. Fortunately, there was no loss of life or
> serious injuries, but what does this say about training ??
>
> WH.
>
>
> At 21:03 10/20/03 -0500, you wrote:
> >--> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann <cschuerm@cox.net>
> >
> >
> >Bill Bow wrote:
> > > As someone who makes a living from this industry, I would say NEVER stop
> > > using a checklist.
> >
> >Amen brother Bow!
> >
> >Okay, the topic does remind me of something, so I'll share in hopes of
> >providing some amusement...
> >
> >A couple years ago, a relative came to town for a visit. Said in-law
> >had never been in a "little airplane" before and asked if I'd take him
> >for a ride. Anyway, we went out for a short sight-seeing jaunt around
> >the countryside, and as always, I tried to be as professional as
> >possible and tried to give a smooth, stress-free, enjoyable ride to this
> >newbie. Although I tried to inject a little conversation about the
> >scenery and explain some of the stuff about the airplane, I noticed that
> >my passenger remained mostly silent during the flight.
> >When we got back to the house, his wife asked him if he enjoyed the
> >ride. He just mumbled that it was "nice". After I left the room, he
> >explained further (my wife was also there) that he was pretty
> >uncomfortable that I was having to read the instructions all of the time
> >and thought that it would be better once I'd learned how to fly. My
> >wife literally fell off her chair laughing and eventually managed to
> >regain enough composure to explain the concept of checklists to the poor
> >fellow.....
> >
> >
> >Chris
> >
> >
>
>
> COMMUNICATIONS
> CHANGES: All Recipients Please Note.
> The new email address for all Glenalmond Group Companies, W.J.R.Hamilton,
> Fighter Flights Internet Services and Warbirds.Net is:
> <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> <fighterf@ozemail.com.au> will remain valid for about three months.
> All phone numbers remain unchanged, but changes will take place in about
> three months, the date will be notified.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:50:23 PM PST US
> From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
>
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
>
> I have another two cents to add.
> In Canada, if you go on a Transport Canada IFR check ride you better make
> sure that your "personalized checklist" has everything on it and in the
> order it is in the approved flight manual or your ride will never get to the
> take-off stage.
>
> Tom F.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "W J R HAMILTON" <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: W J R HAMILTON
> <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> >
> > Chris and all,
> > This reminds me of many years ago, before there were virtually standard
> > rank insignia on civil uniforms, 4 bars for Captains etc.
> > British United Airlines ( now long gone) was a consolidation of a number
> of
> > smaller carriers, largely put together by the rightly famous/infamous
> > Freddy Laker, and based at Southend in UK.
> >
> > Some bright spark decided to "rationalised" rankings.
> >
> > Captains of "big" aeroplanes would carry 4 bars on their uniform, smaller
> > aircraft Captains 3 bars, and cross channel car freighters, the old
> Bristol
> > "Frightener" only 2 bars. First Officers would in each case wear 1 or 2
> bars.
> >
> > There was an alarming drop off in traffic, to the very great benefit of
> the
> > competition.
> >
> > In an early example of a "public relations" survey, it was determined that
> > customers were reluctant to fly BUA cross channel services, because "their
> > pilots were not as experienced" as the competition.
> >
> > So now everybody from the Seneca "Captain" up seems to wear 4 bars.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Bill Hamilton.
> >
> > PS After 40 years/25,000 or so hours, I need checklists. Beware the truism
> > "familiarity breeds contempt. You are only as good as your last sector. No
> > pilot who rigidly adheres to proper checklists and a proper checklist
> > attitude will land gear up, or take off with the fuel off.
> >
> > Down here we had a most amazing accident a while ago. A hot house cadet
> > pilot graduate had an engine failure, it was quite recoverable by
> > switching on an electric boost pump. The pump was never turned on.
> > In the interviews the pilot described how she had been taught to "touch"
> > the various controls in a simulated emergency, and that is what she did,
> > "touch" them, and no more. Fortunately, there was no loss of life or
> > serious injuries, but what does this say about training ??
> >
> > WH.
> >
> >
> > At 21:03 10/20/03 -0500, you wrote:
> > >--> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann <cschuerm@cox.net>
> > >
> > >
> > >Bill Bow wrote:
> > > > As someone who makes a living from this industry, I would say NEVER
> stop
> > > > using a checklist.
> > >
> > >Amen brother Bow!
> > >
> > >Okay, the topic does remind me of something, so I'll share in hopes of
> > >providing some amusement...
> > >
> > >A couple years ago, a relative came to town for a visit. Said in-law
> > >had never been in a "little airplane" before and asked if I'd take him
> > >for a ride. Anyway, we went out for a short sight-seeing jaunt around
> > >the countryside, and as always, I tried to be as professional as
> > >possible and tried to give a smooth, stress-free, enjoyable ride to this
> > >newbie. Although I tried to inject a little conversation about the
> > >scenery and explain some of the stuff about the airplane, I noticed that
> > >my passenger remained mostly silent during the flight.
> > >When we got back to the house, his wife asked him if he enjoyed the
> > >ride. He just mumbled that it was "nice". After I left the room, he
> > >explained further (my wife was also there) that he was pretty
> > >uncomfortable that I was having to read the instructions all of the time
> > >and thought that it would be better once I'd learned how to fly. My
> > >wife literally fell off her chair laughing and eventually managed to
> > >regain enough composure to explain the concept of checklists to the poor
> > >fellow.....
> > >
> > >
> > >Chris
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > COMMUNICATIONS
> > CHANGES: All Recipients Please Note.
> > The new email address for all Glenalmond Group Companies, W.J.R.Hamilton,
> > Fighter Flights Internet Services and Warbirds.Net is:
> > <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> > <fighterf@ozemail.com.au> will remain valid for about three months.
> > All phone numbers remain unchanged, but changes will take place in about
> > three months, the date will be notified.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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|
--> Commander-List message posted by: B777atkins@aol.com
Jim, I have quite a bit of time in several Commanders, including the 520.I
flew them as a corporate pilot years ago and Crunk and I partnered in a 520 for
several years. We just recently sold it.I am recently retired from United
Airlines. 20,000 Hrs. plus total time ,mostly multi.If I can help let me know.
I
am pretty intimate with the 520 mechanically and flying, including one engine
crapping out on takeoff. Sweet airplane. I envy you and hope I can help. I live
just south of the Atlanta airport.Phone no. is 706-538-0308. Thanks, Cliff
Atkins
Message 3
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Jim Crunkleton" <crunk12@bellsouth.net>
Cliff,
We need to take a RV-8 trip to Thomson, GA!
Crunk
Message 4
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--> Commander-List message posted by: "Bruce Campbell" <baruch@intelligentflight.com>
I've been flying mine now for a couple of years. I have a checklist to offer
(if I can find it)....
Do you have the excellent AC520 for FS2002? It really is quite accurate and
an inexpensive way to try things.
Bruce Campbell
----- Original Message -----
From: "jlyle" <jlyle@thomsonaviation.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Re: AC 520
> --> Commander-List message posted by: jlyle <jlyle@thomsonaviation.com>
>
> After a great deal of work and help form Morris and several others, I am
about to get N11L back in the air in a few days. We had hoped to have it
ready for the recent TCFG Fly In.
> However, we couldn't get it ready in time.
> With the help of my son who is an A&P IA we have spent nearly a year
restoring our 520 to better than new condition. He operates the FBO in
Thomson, Georgia (HQU).
> Almost everything on the aircraft has been replaced and/or rebuilt.
> In addition to the mechanical side we trimed it off with new paint and a
new panel with a Garmin 430 and an Stec autopilot.
> It looks like a show plane!
> N11L was a new project begun last year to restore it to the best 520 in
the world.
> I will get some photo's as soon as we complete the detailing of the
engines.
> Now, I need some help/advice from experienced 520 flyers.
> I have very few hours in geared engines and could use any advice/tips on
flying the 520.
> maniford pressure/RPM, speeds etc.
> I have copied some information from the TCFG website.
> However, now I want to pick the brains of some experienced flyers with
real world experience.
> Thanks,
> James Lyle
> N11l
> Thomson, Georgia
>
>
> > ==================================================
> > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> > ==================================================
> >
> > Today's complete Commander-List Digest can be also be found in either
> > of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
> > formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features
Hyperlinked
> > Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII
> > version of the Commander-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic
> > text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser.
> >
> > HTML Version:
> >
> >
http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list/Digest.Commander-List.2003-10-20.html
> >
> > Text Version:
> >
> >
http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list/Digest.Commander-List.2003-10-20.txt
> >
> >
> > ================================================
> > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> > ================================================
> >
> >
> > Commander-List Digest Archive
> > ---
> > Total Messages Posted Mon 10/20/03: 7
> >
> >
> > Today's Message Index:
> > ----------------------
> >
> > 1. 07:02 AM - Re: ANYBODY OUT THERE?? (Randy Dettmer, AIA)
> > 2. 09:04 AM - Re: ANYBODY OUT THERE?? (YOURTCFG@aol.com)
> > 3. 04:34 PM - Re: Checklists anyone? (W J R HAMILTON)
> > 4. 05:41 PM - Re: Checklists anyone? (Bill Bow)
> > 5. 06:53 PM - Re: Checklists anyone? (Chris Schuermann)
> > 6. 07:29 PM - Re: Checklists anyone? (W J R HAMILTON)
> > 7. 08:50 PM - Re: Checklists anyone? (Tom Fisher)
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 07:02:18 AM PST US
> > From: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer@charter.net>
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: ANYBODY OUT THERE??
> >
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Randy Dettmer, AIA"
<rcdettmer@charter.net>
> >
> > Great trip this weekend ..San Luis Obispo to SanDiego (Lindbergh
Field...I
> > love that airport). Spent two days in Mexico visiting our daughter.
Son
> > Todd flew in from Denver to meet us. Gorgeous flight home last
> > night...twinkling stars, lites of the LA basin. Ain't it great..!!
> >
> > Randy Dettmer
> > N6253X/680F
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <YOURTCFG@aol.com>
> > Subject: Commander-List: ANYBODY OUT THERE??
> >
> >
> > > --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
> > >
> > > HI KIDS.
> > >
> > > Pretty quite. I flew triple 2 to Mccminville Oregon
(home
> > of
> > > the Spruce Goose) yesterday to take another look at a derelict 500
parked
> > > there. Had a great trip. Wonderful weather the last couple of days.
> > Flew up
> > > the gorge and around Moultnoma falls. Had my neighbors along.
> > > Sue has retired from her job (Yea!) Friday was her last day.
We
> > don't
> > > know what the future holds for us, but we trust God. We will be
through
> > FL
> > > next week briefly as we board a cruse ship for a week. The president
of
> > the
> > > Navion Society and his wife will be going as well as another airport
> > buddy. It
> > > should really be fun.
> > > Anybody else flying there Commander?? jb
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 09:04:34 AM PST US
> > From: YOURTCFG@aol.com
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: ANYBODY OUT THERE??
> >
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
> >
> > In a message dated 10/20/2003 7:02:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> > rcdettmer@charter.net writes:
> >
> > > Ain't it great..!!
> >
> > AMEN!! jb
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 04:34:26 PM PST US
> > From: W J R HAMILTON <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> >
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: W J R HAMILTON
<wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> >
> > All,
> > There is a nice little "official" 500A checklist, I have an original,
nice
> > Rockwell blue cover and all, if anybody wants a copy, I guess I could
scan
> > each page, and send it.
> > It would be a good start for anybody creating their own version.
> > Cheers,
> > Bill BIll Hamilton.
> >
> >
> > At 23:24 10/19/03 -0700, you wrote:
> > >--> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico"
<nico@cybersuperstore.com>
> > >
> > >I am a convert. Never used a checklist. Never wrote a clearance down
either.
> > >But I see the dangers in not doing it. Especially now that more brain
cells
> > >are on pension than on duty. The little bastards flirt with calcium, I
> > >guess.
> > >Nico
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> > >To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > >Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher"
> > ><tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> > > >
> > > > The longer I am in the game (35 yrs.) the MORE I rely on check lists
and
> > > > they always serve a purpose, that's why they exist.
> > > > Don't let familiarity with any aircraft stop the use of check
lists....
> > > > please.
> > > > Tom F.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Alan Kucheck" <akucheck@hotmail.com>
> > > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > > Subject: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Alan Kucheck"
> > > > <akucheck@hotmail.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > I am sure most of the veterans on this list are well past
checklist and
> > > > > all. But I'm still just starting out and for me a checklist still
> > > > > serves a purpose. I have created one for N811D, my 1962 500A
Colemill
> > > > > Twin Commander. I have pulled together information from the 500A
flight
> > > > > manual, the Colemill supplement to the AFM, and advice from
several
> > > > > folks I have flown with or spoken to.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is available at http://www.kucheck.net/Aircraft/Checklist.html.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any feedback, corrections, suggestions wil be appreciated. Feel
free to
> > > > > take the doc and modify it to suit your needs.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks in advance,
> > > > >
> > > > > Alan
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > COMMUNICATIONS
> > CHANGES: All Recipients Please Note.
> > The new email address for all Glenalmond Group Companies,
W.J.R.Hamilton,
> > Fighter Flights Internet Services and Warbirds.Net is:
> > <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> > <fighterf@ozemail.com.au> will remain valid for about three months.
> > All phone numbers remain unchanged, but changes will take place in about
> > three months, the date will be notified.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 05:41:50 PM PST US
> > From: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> >
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow"
<bowing74@earthlink.net>
> >
> > As someone who makes a living from this industry, I would say NEVER stop
> > using a checklist.
> >
> > bilbo
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "W J R HAMILTON" <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> >
> >
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: W J R HAMILTON
> > <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> >
> > All,
> > There is a nice little "official" 500A checklist, I have an original,
nice
> > Rockwell blue cover and all, if anybody wants a copy, I guess I could
scan
> > each page, and send it.
> > It would be a good start for anybody creating their own version.
> > Cheers,
> > Bill BIll Hamilton.
> >
> >
> > At 23:24 10/19/03 -0700, you wrote:
> > >--> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico"
<nico@cybersuperstore.com>
> > >
> > >I am a convert. Never used a checklist. Never wrote a clearance down
> > either.
> > >But I see the dangers in not doing it. Especially now that more brain
cells
> > >are on pension than on duty. The little bastards flirt with calcium, I
> > >guess.
> > >Nico
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> > >To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > >Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher"
> > ><tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> > > >
> > > > The longer I am in the game (35 yrs.) the MORE I rely on check lists
and
> > > > they always serve a purpose, that's why they exist.
> > > > Don't let familiarity with any aircraft stop the use of check
lists....
> > > > please.
> > > > Tom F.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Alan Kucheck" <akucheck@hotmail.com>
> > > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > > Subject: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Alan Kucheck"
> > > > <akucheck@hotmail.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > I am sure most of the veterans on this list are well past
checklist
> > and
> > > > > all. But I'm still just starting out and for me a checklist still
> > > > > serves a purpose. I have created one for N811D, my 1962 500A
Colemill
> > > > > Twin Commander. I have pulled together information from the 500A
> > flight
> > > > > manual, the Colemill supplement to the AFM, and advice from
several
> > > > > folks I have flown with or spoken to.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is available at http://www.kucheck.net/Aircraft/Checklist.html.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any feedback, corrections, suggestions wil be appreciated. Feel
free
> > to
> > > > > take the doc and modify it to suit your needs.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks in advance,
> > > > >
> > > > > Alan
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > COMMUNICATIONS
> > CHANGES: All Recipients Please Note.
> > The new email address for all Glenalmond Group Companies,
W.J.R.Hamilton,
> > Fighter Flights Internet Services and Warbirds.Net is:
> > <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> > <fighterf@ozemail.com.au> will remain valid for about three months.
> > All phone numbers remain unchanged, but changes will take place in about
> > three months, the date will be notified.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 06:53:51 PM PST US
> > From: Chris Schuermann <cschuerm@cox.net>
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> >
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann
<cschuerm@cox.net>
> >
> >
> > Bill Bow wrote:
> > > As someone who makes a living from this industry, I would say NEVER
stop
> > > using a checklist.
> >
> > Amen brother Bow!
> >
> > Okay, the topic does remind me of something, so I'll share in hopes of
> > providing some amusement...
> >
> > A couple years ago, a relative came to town for a visit. Said in-law
> > had never been in a "little airplane" before and asked if I'd take him
> > for a ride. Anyway, we went out for a short sight-seeing jaunt around
> > the countryside, and as always, I tried to be as professional as
> > possible and tried to give a smooth, stress-free, enjoyable ride to this
> > newbie. Although I tried to inject a little conversation about the
> > scenery and explain some of the stuff about the airplane, I noticed that
> > my passenger remained mostly silent during the flight.
> > When we got back to the house, his wife asked him if he enjoyed the
> > ride. He just mumbled that it was "nice". After I left the room, he
> > explained further (my wife was also there) that he was pretty
> > uncomfortable that I was having to read the instructions all of the time
> > and thought that it would be better once I'd learned how to fly. My
> > wife literally fell off her chair laughing and eventually managed to
> > regain enough composure to explain the concept of checklists to the poor
> > fellow.....
> >
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 07:29:54 PM PST US
> > From: W J R HAMILTON <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> >
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: W J R HAMILTON
<wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> >
> > Chris and all,
> > This reminds me of many years ago, before there were virtually standard
> > rank insignia on civil uniforms, 4 bars for Captains etc.
> > British United Airlines ( now long gone) was a consolidation of a number
of
> > smaller carriers, largely put together by the rightly famous/infamous
> > Freddy Laker, and based at Southend in UK.
> >
> > Some bright spark decided to "rationalised" rankings.
> >
> > Captains of "big" aeroplanes would carry 4 bars on their uniform,
smaller
> > aircraft Captains 3 bars, and cross channel car freighters, the old
Bristol
> > "Frightener" only 2 bars. First Officers would in each case wear 1 or 2
bars.
> >
> > There was an alarming drop off in traffic, to the very great benefit of
the
> > competition.
> >
> > In an early example of a "public relations" survey, it was determined
that
> > customers were reluctant to fly BUA cross channel services, because
"their
> > pilots were not as experienced" as the competition.
> >
> > So now everybody from the Seneca "Captain" up seems to wear 4 bars.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Bill Hamilton.
> >
> > PS After 40 years/25,000 or so hours, I need checklists. Beware the
truism
> > "familiarity breeds contempt. You are only as good as your last sector.
No
> > pilot who rigidly adheres to proper checklists and a proper checklist
> > attitude will land gear up, or take off with the fuel off.
> >
> > Down here we had a most amazing accident a while ago. A hot house cadet
> > pilot graduate had an engine failure, it was quite recoverable by
> > switching on an electric boost pump. The pump was never turned on.
> > In the interviews the pilot described how she had been taught to "touch"
> > the various controls in a simulated emergency, and that is what she did,
> > "touch" them, and no more. Fortunately, there was no loss of life or
> > serious injuries, but what does this say about training ??
> >
> > WH.
> >
> >
> > At 21:03 10/20/03 -0500, you wrote:
> > >--> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann
<cschuerm@cox.net>
> > >
> > >
> > >Bill Bow wrote:
> > > > As someone who makes a living from this industry, I would say NEVER
stop
> > > > using a checklist.
> > >
> > >Amen brother Bow!
> > >
> > >Okay, the topic does remind me of something, so I'll share in hopes of
> > >providing some amusement...
> > >
> > >A couple years ago, a relative came to town for a visit. Said in-law
> > >had never been in a "little airplane" before and asked if I'd take him
> > >for a ride. Anyway, we went out for a short sight-seeing jaunt around
> > >the countryside, and as always, I tried to be as professional as
> > >possible and tried to give a smooth, stress-free, enjoyable ride to
this
> > >newbie. Although I tried to inject a little conversation about the
> > >scenery and explain some of the stuff about the airplane, I noticed
that
> > >my passenger remained mostly silent during the flight.
> > >When we got back to the house, his wife asked him if he enjoyed the
> > >ride. He just mumbled that it was "nice". After I left the room, he
> > >explained further (my wife was also there) that he was pretty
> > >uncomfortable that I was having to read the instructions all of the
time
> > >and thought that it would be better once I'd learned how to fly. My
> > >wife literally fell off her chair laughing and eventually managed to
> > >regain enough composure to explain the concept of checklists to the
poor
> > >fellow.....
> > >
> > >
> > >Chris
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > COMMUNICATIONS
> > CHANGES: All Recipients Please Note.
> > The new email address for all Glenalmond Group Companies,
W.J.R.Hamilton,
> > Fighter Flights Internet Services and Warbirds.Net is:
> > <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> > <fighterf@ozemail.com.au> will remain valid for about three months.
> > All phone numbers remain unchanged, but changes will take place in about
> > three months, the date will be notified.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 08:50:23 PM PST US
> > From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> >
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher"
<tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> >
> > I have another two cents to add.
> > In Canada, if you go on a Transport Canada IFR check ride you better
make
> > sure that your "personalized checklist" has everything on it and in the
> > order it is in the approved flight manual or your ride will never get to
the
> > take-off stage.
> >
> > Tom F.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "W J R HAMILTON" <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> >
> >
> > > --> Commander-List message posted by: W J R HAMILTON
> > <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> > >
> > > Chris and all,
> > > This reminds me of many years ago, before there were virtually
standard
> > > rank insignia on civil uniforms, 4 bars for Captains etc.
> > > British United Airlines ( now long gone) was a consolidation of a
number
> > of
> > > smaller carriers, largely put together by the rightly famous/infamous
> > > Freddy Laker, and based at Southend in UK.
> > >
> > > Some bright spark decided to "rationalised" rankings.
> > >
> > > Captains of "big" aeroplanes would carry 4 bars on their uniform,
smaller
> > > aircraft Captains 3 bars, and cross channel car freighters, the old
> > Bristol
> > > "Frightener" only 2 bars. First Officers would in each case wear 1 or
2
> > bars.
> > >
> > > There was an alarming drop off in traffic, to the very great benefit
of
> > the
> > > competition.
> > >
> > > In an early example of a "public relations" survey, it was determined
that
> > > customers were reluctant to fly BUA cross channel services, because
"their
> > > pilots were not as experienced" as the competition.
> > >
> > > So now everybody from the Seneca "Captain" up seems to wear 4 bars.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Bill Hamilton.
> > >
> > > PS After 40 years/25,000 or so hours, I need checklists. Beware the
truism
> > > "familiarity breeds contempt. You are only as good as your last
sector. No
> > > pilot who rigidly adheres to proper checklists and a proper checklist
> > > attitude will land gear up, or take off with the fuel off.
> > >
> > > Down here we had a most amazing accident a while ago. A hot house
cadet
> > > pilot graduate had an engine failure, it was quite recoverable by
> > > switching on an electric boost pump. The pump was never turned on.
> > > In the interviews the pilot described how she had been taught to
"touch"
> > > the various controls in a simulated emergency, and that is what she
did,
> > > "touch" them, and no more. Fortunately, there was no loss of life or
> > > serious injuries, but what does this say about training ??
> > >
> > > WH.
> > >
> > >
> > > At 21:03 10/20/03 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >--> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann
<cschuerm@cox.net>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Bill Bow wrote:
> > > > > As someone who makes a living from this industry, I would say
NEVER
> > stop
> > > > > using a checklist.
> > > >
> > > >Amen brother Bow!
> > > >
> > > >Okay, the topic does remind me of something, so I'll share in hopes
of
> > > >providing some amusement...
> > > >
> > > >A couple years ago, a relative came to town for a visit. Said in-law
> > > >had never been in a "little airplane" before and asked if I'd take
him
> > > >for a ride. Anyway, we went out for a short sight-seeing jaunt
around
> > > >the countryside, and as always, I tried to be as professional as
> > > >possible and tried to give a smooth, stress-free, enjoyable ride to
this
> > > >newbie. Although I tried to inject a little conversation about the
> > > >scenery and explain some of the stuff about the airplane, I noticed
that
> > > >my passenger remained mostly silent during the flight.
> > > >When we got back to the house, his wife asked him if he enjoyed the
> > > >ride. He just mumbled that it was "nice". After I left the room, he
> > > >explained further (my wife was also there) that he was pretty
> > > >uncomfortable that I was having to read the instructions all of the
time
> > > >and thought that it would be better once I'd learned how to fly. My
> > > >wife literally fell off her chair laughing and eventually managed to
> > > >regain enough composure to explain the concept of checklists to the
poor
> > > >fellow.....
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Chris
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > COMMUNICATIONS
> > > CHANGES: All Recipients Please Note.
> > > The new email address for all Glenalmond Group Companies,
W.J.R.Hamilton,
> > > Fighter Flights Internet Services and Warbirds.Net is:
> > > <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> > > <fighterf@ozemail.com.au> will remain valid for about three months.
> > > All phone numbers remain unchanged, but changes will take place in
about
> > > three months, the date will be notified.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Checklists anyone? |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
But it's never too late to start, huh?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" <bowing74@earthlink.net>
>
> As someone who makes a living from this industry, I would say NEVER stop
> using a checklist.
>
> bilbo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "W J R HAMILTON" <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
>
>
> --> Commander-List message posted by: W J R HAMILTON
> <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
>
> All,
> There is a nice little "official" 500A checklist, I have an original, nice
> Rockwell blue cover and all, if anybody wants a copy, I guess I could scan
> each page, and send it.
> It would be a good start for anybody creating their own version.
> Cheers,
> Bill BIll Hamilton.
>
>
> At 23:24 10/19/03 -0700, you wrote:
> >--> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico"
<nico@cybersuperstore.com>
> >
> >I am a convert. Never used a checklist. Never wrote a clearance down
> either.
> >But I see the dangers in not doing it. Especially now that more brain
cells
> >are on pension than on duty. The little bastards flirt with calcium, I
> >guess.
> >Nico
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> >To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> >
> >
> > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher"
> ><tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> > >
> > > The longer I am in the game (35 yrs.) the MORE I rely on check lists
and
> > > they always serve a purpose, that's why they exist.
> > > Don't let familiarity with any aircraft stop the use of check
lists....
> > > please.
> > > Tom F.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Alan Kucheck" <akucheck@hotmail.com>
> > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Alan Kucheck"
> > > <akucheck@hotmail.com>
> > > >
> > > > I am sure most of the veterans on this list are well past checklist
> and
> > > > all. But I'm still just starting out and for me a checklist still
> > > > serves a purpose. I have created one for N811D, my 1962 500A
Colemill
> > > > Twin Commander. I have pulled together information from the 500A
> flight
> > > > manual, the Colemill supplement to the AFM, and advice from several
> > > > folks I have flown with or spoken to.
> > > >
> > > > It is available at http://www.kucheck.net/Aircraft/Checklist.html.
> > > >
> > > > Any feedback, corrections, suggestions wil be appreciated. Feel free
> to
> > > > take the doc and modify it to suit your needs.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks in advance,
> > > >
> > > > Alan
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> COMMUNICATIONS
> CHANGES: All Recipients Please Note.
> The new email address for all Glenalmond Group Companies, W.J.R.Hamilton,
> Fighter Flights Internet Services and Warbirds.Net is:
> <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> <fighterf@ozemail.com.au> will remain valid for about three months.
> All phone numbers remain unchanged, but changes will take place in about
> three months, the date will be notified.
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Checklists anyone? |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
I appreciate the value of a checklist, and as I said, I am a convert, but,
surely, there are times when you have to employ your drills, such as when
aborting a landing at a late stage or having an in-flight emergency. I used
to make very short hops between Inhaca Island and Maputo in Mozambique
several times a day in my Commander. If I had to use a checklist I would
have had to delay the approach to Maputu to get the checklist-work slotted
in. Instead I would prepare for the phases of the flight from memory (and
still forgot the fuel pump once or twice -- like the undercarraige it's only
a switch!).
Is there a point where over-reliance on a checklist would show up in one's
emergency drills?
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher"
<tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
>
> I have another two cents to add.
> In Canada, if you go on a Transport Canada IFR check ride you better make
> sure that your "personalized checklist" has everything on it and in the
> order it is in the approved flight manual or your ride will never get to
the
> take-off stage.
>
> Tom F.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "W J R HAMILTON" <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: W J R HAMILTON
> <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> >
> > Chris and all,
> > This reminds me of many years ago, before there were virtually standard
> > rank insignia on civil uniforms, 4 bars for Captains etc.
> > British United Airlines ( now long gone) was a consolidation of a number
> of
> > smaller carriers, largely put together by the rightly famous/infamous
> > Freddy Laker, and based at Southend in UK.
> >
> > Some bright spark decided to "rationalised" rankings.
> >
> > Captains of "big" aeroplanes would carry 4 bars on their uniform,
smaller
> > aircraft Captains 3 bars, and cross channel car freighters, the old
> Bristol
> > "Frightener" only 2 bars. First Officers would in each case wear 1 or 2
> bars.
> >
> > There was an alarming drop off in traffic, to the very great benefit of
> the
> > competition.
> >
> > In an early example of a "public relations" survey, it was determined
that
> > customers were reluctant to fly BUA cross channel services, because
"their
> > pilots were not as experienced" as the competition.
> >
> > So now everybody from the Seneca "Captain" up seems to wear 4 bars.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Bill Hamilton.
> >
> > PS After 40 years/25,000 or so hours, I need checklists. Beware the
truism
> > "familiarity breeds contempt. You are only as good as your last sector.
No
> > pilot who rigidly adheres to proper checklists and a proper checklist
> > attitude will land gear up, or take off with the fuel off.
> >
> > Down here we had a most amazing accident a while ago. A hot house cadet
> > pilot graduate had an engine failure, it was quite recoverable by
> > switching on an electric boost pump. The pump was never turned on.
> > In the interviews the pilot described how she had been taught to "touch"
> > the various controls in a simulated emergency, and that is what she did,
> > "touch" them, and no more. Fortunately, there was no loss of life or
> > serious injuries, but what does this say about training ??
> >
> > WH.
> >
> >
> > At 21:03 10/20/03 -0500, you wrote:
> > >--> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann
<cschuerm@cox.net>
> > >
> > >
> > >Bill Bow wrote:
> > > > As someone who makes a living from this industry, I would say NEVER
> stop
> > > > using a checklist.
> > >
> > >Amen brother Bow!
> > >
> > >Okay, the topic does remind me of something, so I'll share in hopes of
> > >providing some amusement...
> > >
> > >A couple years ago, a relative came to town for a visit. Said in-law
> > >had never been in a "little airplane" before and asked if I'd take him
> > >for a ride. Anyway, we went out for a short sight-seeing jaunt around
> > >the countryside, and as always, I tried to be as professional as
> > >possible and tried to give a smooth, stress-free, enjoyable ride to
this
> > >newbie. Although I tried to inject a little conversation about the
> > >scenery and explain some of the stuff about the airplane, I noticed
that
> > >my passenger remained mostly silent during the flight.
> > >When we got back to the house, his wife asked him if he enjoyed the
> > >ride. He just mumbled that it was "nice". After I left the room, he
> > >explained further (my wife was also there) that he was pretty
> > >uncomfortable that I was having to read the instructions all of the
time
> > >and thought that it would be better once I'd learned how to fly. My
> > >wife literally fell off her chair laughing and eventually managed to
> > >regain enough composure to explain the concept of checklists to the
poor
> > >fellow.....
> > >
> > >
> > >Chris
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > COMMUNICATIONS
> > CHANGES: All Recipients Please Note.
> > The new email address for all Glenalmond Group Companies,
W.J.R.Hamilton,
> > Fighter Flights Internet Services and Warbirds.Net is:
> > <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> > <fighterf@ozemail.com.au> will remain valid for about three months.
> > All phone numbers remain unchanged, but changes will take place in about
> > three months, the date will be notified.
> >
> >
>
>
Message 7
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|
| Subject: | Re: Checklists anyone? |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Absolutely emergency drills in a single pilot environment have to be
conducted from memory and at the first opportunity the check list should be
referenced to insure all items have been completed.
In a multipilot environment the check list is brought out sooner.
Tom F.
----- Original Message -----
From: "css nico" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico"
<nico@cybersuperstore.com>
>
> I appreciate the value of a checklist, and as I said, I am a convert, but,
> surely, there are times when you have to employ your drills, such as when
> aborting a landing at a late stage or having an in-flight emergency. I
used
> to make very short hops between Inhaca Island and Maputo in Mozambique
> several times a day in my Commander. If I had to use a checklist I would
> have had to delay the approach to Maputu to get the checklist-work slotted
> in. Instead I would prepare for the phases of the flight from memory (and
> still forgot the fuel pump once or twice -- like the undercarraige it's
only
> a switch!).
> Is there a point where over-reliance on a checklist would show up in one's
> emergency drills?
> Nico
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher"
> <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> >
> > I have another two cents to add.
> > In Canada, if you go on a Transport Canada IFR check ride you better
make
> > sure that your "personalized checklist" has everything on it and in the
> > order it is in the approved flight manual or your ride will never get to
> the
> > take-off stage.
> >
> > Tom F.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "W J R HAMILTON" <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> >
> >
> > > --> Commander-List message posted by: W J R HAMILTON
> > <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> > >
> > > Chris and all,
> > > This reminds me of many years ago, before there were virtually
standard
> > > rank insignia on civil uniforms, 4 bars for Captains etc.
> > > British United Airlines ( now long gone) was a consolidation of a
number
> > of
> > > smaller carriers, largely put together by the rightly famous/infamous
> > > Freddy Laker, and based at Southend in UK.
> > >
> > > Some bright spark decided to "rationalised" rankings.
> > >
> > > Captains of "big" aeroplanes would carry 4 bars on their uniform,
> smaller
> > > aircraft Captains 3 bars, and cross channel car freighters, the old
> > Bristol
> > > "Frightener" only 2 bars. First Officers would in each case wear 1 or
2
> > bars.
> > >
> > > There was an alarming drop off in traffic, to the very great benefit
of
> > the
> > > competition.
> > >
> > > In an early example of a "public relations" survey, it was determined
> that
> > > customers were reluctant to fly BUA cross channel services, because
> "their
> > > pilots were not as experienced" as the competition.
> > >
> > > So now everybody from the Seneca "Captain" up seems to wear 4 bars.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Bill Hamilton.
> > >
> > > PS After 40 years/25,000 or so hours, I need checklists. Beware the
> truism
> > > "familiarity breeds contempt. You are only as good as your last
sector.
> No
> > > pilot who rigidly adheres to proper checklists and a proper checklist
> > > attitude will land gear up, or take off with the fuel off.
> > >
> > > Down here we had a most amazing accident a while ago. A hot house
cadet
> > > pilot graduate had an engine failure, it was quite recoverable by
> > > switching on an electric boost pump. The pump was never turned on.
> > > In the interviews the pilot described how she had been taught to
"touch"
> > > the various controls in a simulated emergency, and that is what she
did,
> > > "touch" them, and no more. Fortunately, there was no loss of life or
> > > serious injuries, but what does this say about training ??
> > >
> > > WH.
> > >
> > >
> > > At 21:03 10/20/03 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >--> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann
> <cschuerm@cox.net>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Bill Bow wrote:
> > > > > As someone who makes a living from this industry, I would say
NEVER
> > stop
> > > > > using a checklist.
> > > >
> > > >Amen brother Bow!
> > > >
> > > >Okay, the topic does remind me of something, so I'll share in hopes
of
> > > >providing some amusement...
> > > >
> > > >A couple years ago, a relative came to town for a visit. Said in-law
> > > >had never been in a "little airplane" before and asked if I'd take
him
> > > >for a ride. Anyway, we went out for a short sight-seeing jaunt
around
> > > >the countryside, and as always, I tried to be as professional as
> > > >possible and tried to give a smooth, stress-free, enjoyable ride to
> this
> > > >newbie. Although I tried to inject a little conversation about the
> > > >scenery and explain some of the stuff about the airplane, I noticed
> that
> > > >my passenger remained mostly silent during the flight.
> > > >When we got back to the house, his wife asked him if he enjoyed the
> > > >ride. He just mumbled that it was "nice". After I left the room, he
> > > >explained further (my wife was also there) that he was pretty
> > > >uncomfortable that I was having to read the instructions all of the
> time
> > > >and thought that it would be better once I'd learned how to fly. My
> > > >wife literally fell off her chair laughing and eventually managed to
> > > >regain enough composure to explain the concept of checklists to the
> poor
> > > >fellow.....
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Chris
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > COMMUNICATIONS
> > > CHANGES: All Recipients Please Note.
> > > The new email address for all Glenalmond Group Companies,
> W.J.R.Hamilton,
> > > Fighter Flights Internet Services and Warbirds.Net is:
> > > <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> > > <fighterf@ozemail.com.au> will remain valid for about three months.
> > > All phone numbers remain unchanged, but changes will take place in
about
> > > three months, the date will be notified.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 8
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|
| Subject: | Re: Checklists anyone? |
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Bruce Campbell" <baruch@intelligentflight.com>
I beleive a checklist should be employed *especially* after an emergency. A
checklist is not a "do" list. Use you flows or memory items, but use the
checklist to ensure you got everything. Under high stress is a classic time
for an *oopsie*
Bruce Campbell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher"
<tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
>
> Absolutely emergency drills in a single pilot environment have to be
> conducted from memory and at the first opportunity the check list should
be
> referenced to insure all items have been completed.
> In a multipilot environment the check list is brought out sooner.
>
> Tom F.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "css nico" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
>
>
> > --> Commander-List message posted by: "css nico"
> <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
> >
> > I appreciate the value of a checklist, and as I said, I am a convert,
but,
> > surely, there are times when you have to employ your drills, such as
when
> > aborting a landing at a late stage or having an in-flight emergency. I
> used
> > to make very short hops between Inhaca Island and Maputo in Mozambique
> > several times a day in my Commander. If I had to use a checklist I would
> > have had to delay the approach to Maputu to get the checklist-work
slotted
> > in. Instead I would prepare for the phases of the flight from memory
(and
> > still forgot the fuel pump once or twice -- like the undercarraige it's
> only
> > a switch!).
> > Is there a point where over-reliance on a checklist would show up in
one's
> > emergency drills?
> > Nico
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> >
> >
> > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher"
> > <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> > >
> > > I have another two cents to add.
> > > In Canada, if you go on a Transport Canada IFR check ride you better
> make
> > > sure that your "personalized checklist" has everything on it and in
the
> > > order it is in the approved flight manual or your ride will never get
to
> > the
> > > take-off stage.
> > >
> > > Tom F.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "W J R HAMILTON" <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Checklists anyone?
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: W J R HAMILTON
> > > <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> > > >
> > > > Chris and all,
> > > > This reminds me of many years ago, before there were virtually
> standard
> > > > rank insignia on civil uniforms, 4 bars for Captains etc.
> > > > British United Airlines ( now long gone) was a consolidation of a
> number
> > > of
> > > > smaller carriers, largely put together by the rightly
famous/infamous
> > > > Freddy Laker, and based at Southend in UK.
> > > >
> > > > Some bright spark decided to "rationalised" rankings.
> > > >
> > > > Captains of "big" aeroplanes would carry 4 bars on their uniform,
> > smaller
> > > > aircraft Captains 3 bars, and cross channel car freighters, the old
> > > Bristol
> > > > "Frightener" only 2 bars. First Officers would in each case wear 1
or
> 2
> > > bars.
> > > >
> > > > There was an alarming drop off in traffic, to the very great benefit
> of
> > > the
> > > > competition.
> > > >
> > > > In an early example of a "public relations" survey, it was
determined
> > that
> > > > customers were reluctant to fly BUA cross channel services, because
> > "their
> > > > pilots were not as experienced" as the competition.
> > > >
> > > > So now everybody from the Seneca "Captain" up seems to wear 4 bars.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Bill Hamilton.
> > > >
> > > > PS After 40 years/25,000 or so hours, I need checklists. Beware the
> > truism
> > > > "familiarity breeds contempt. You are only as good as your last
> sector.
> > No
> > > > pilot who rigidly adheres to proper checklists and a proper
checklist
> > > > attitude will land gear up, or take off with the fuel off.
> > > >
> > > > Down here we had a most amazing accident a while ago. A hot house
> cadet
> > > > pilot graduate had an engine failure, it was quite recoverable by
> > > > switching on an electric boost pump. The pump was never turned on.
> > > > In the interviews the pilot described how she had been taught to
> "touch"
> > > > the various controls in a simulated emergency, and that is what she
> did,
> > > > "touch" them, and no more. Fortunately, there was no loss of life or
> > > > serious injuries, but what does this say about training ??
> > > >
> > > > WH.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 21:03 10/20/03 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > >--> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann
> > <cschuerm@cox.net>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Bill Bow wrote:
> > > > > > As someone who makes a living from this industry, I would say
> NEVER
> > > stop
> > > > > > using a checklist.
> > > > >
> > > > >Amen brother Bow!
> > > > >
> > > > >Okay, the topic does remind me of something, so I'll share in hopes
> of
> > > > >providing some amusement...
> > > > >
> > > > >A couple years ago, a relative came to town for a visit. Said
in-law
> > > > >had never been in a "little airplane" before and asked if I'd take
> him
> > > > >for a ride. Anyway, we went out for a short sight-seeing jaunt
> around
> > > > >the countryside, and as always, I tried to be as professional as
> > > > >possible and tried to give a smooth, stress-free, enjoyable ride to
> > this
> > > > >newbie. Although I tried to inject a little conversation about the
> > > > >scenery and explain some of the stuff about the airplane, I noticed
> > that
> > > > >my passenger remained mostly silent during the flight.
> > > > >When we got back to the house, his wife asked him if he enjoyed the
> > > > >ride. He just mumbled that it was "nice". After I left the room,
he
> > > > >explained further (my wife was also there) that he was pretty
> > > > >uncomfortable that I was having to read the instructions all of the
> > time
> > > > >and thought that it would be better once I'd learned how to fly.
My
> > > > >wife literally fell off her chair laughing and eventually managed
to
> > > > >regain enough composure to explain the concept of checklists to the
> > poor
> > > > >fellow.....
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Chris
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > COMMUNICATIONS
> > > > CHANGES: All Recipients Please Note.
> > > > The new email address for all Glenalmond Group Companies,
> > W.J.R.Hamilton,
> > > > Fighter Flights Internet Services and Warbirds.Net is:
> > > > <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
> > > > <fighterf@ozemail.com.au> will remain valid for about three months.
> > > > All phone numbers remain unchanged, but changes will take place in
> about
> > > > three months, the date will be notified.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 9
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|
| Subject: | Re: Checklists anyone? |
--> Commander-List message posted by: YOURTCFG@aol.com
In a message dated 10/21/2003 1:05:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca writes:
> Absolutely emergency drills in a single pilot environment have to be
> conducted from memory
How about a "memory checklist" I use C-I-G-A-R T-I-P. As I ferry or write
about many different airplanes, many (most) don't have a reliable written
checklist. I believe firmly that a memory checklist is essential to safety.
Emergencies require it. There are also the items that are not currently found
on
the Commander written checklist, such as turning off the aux hyd pump after TO
or checking the aux fuel valve operation prior to engine start. These items
are not found on the written checklist, but extremely important in the real
world. I have chosen to memorize them. There are certainly airplanes that are
to complex to commit their operation to memory, but Commander is not one of
them. Just my thoughts. jb
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