Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:36 AM - Cooling issues, once again! (Frans Veldman)
2. 04:26 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Lisbet og Gert Dalgaard)
3. 05:51 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Frans Veldman)
4. 06:30 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Kevin Klinefelter)
5. 07:09 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Frans Veldman)
6. 07:58 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Robert Borger)
7. 08:53 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Frans Veldman)
8. 09:44 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Paul McAllister)
9. 10:47 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (rampil)
10. 10:52 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (JEFF ROBERTS)
11. 11:00 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (G-IANI)
12. 11:02 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! ()
13. 11:02 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Robert Borger)
14. 11:39 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Mike Parkin)
15. 11:52 AM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Frans Veldman)
16. 12:23 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Frans Veldman)
17. 12:23 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Brian Davies)
18. 12:38 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Rob Housman)
19. 01:34 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Frans Veldman)
20. 01:41 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
21. 03:25 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Robert Hatton)
22. 03:47 PM - deviations from manual (Fred Klein)
23. 03:49 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (rparigoris)
24. 03:51 PM - Re: deviations from manual (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
25. 03:57 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
26. 04:11 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Tony Renshaw)
27. 04:25 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Tony Renshaw)
28. 04:54 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Paul McAllister)
29. 05:00 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (JEFF ROBERTS)
30. 08:04 PM - Re: Cooling issues, once again! (Kevin Klinefelter)
Message 1
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Cooling issues, once again! |
Gentlemen,
Although my initial cooling issues have been improved upon, I'm not
satisfied at all with the cooling of my 914.
Now, with increasing ambient temperatures, I have to severely limit my
climb outs. Cruising is ok. During climb, both the water temperature and
oil temperature approach the red line, more or less at the same time.
Water temperature recovers faster than the oil temperature after I power
down. At this time I can barely make it to circuit height and then have
to level off, build more speed, and then limit my climb with 200 ft/min
until I'm in cooler air. The engine has now 32 hours on it, so it might
still improve somewhat further, but I don't expect miracles from that.
I had to do something.
First I made an additional exit in the cowling, under the turbo, hoping
to provide more airflow. Whether the airflow in the cowling improved I
don't know, but it had zero effect on the water and oil temperatures.
Temperatures inside the cowling seem to be ok anyway, no discoloured
spark plug indicator labels (still bright yellow), no melted tie-wraps, etc.
My conclusion was that the problem is not in cooling of the cowling, but
somewhere in the efficiency of the radiators.
So then I built a new radiator inlet, somewhat larger than previous one,
with a lip to avoid digesting the boundary layer and making sure the
inlet receives ram air, angled straight into the airflow, and with a
diffuser for which I copied a profile out of a famous book.
It was no improvement over my "free style" sleeker inlet and diffuser.
None. Very frustrating, as I ruined my nicely shaped and painted
original inlet for this.
I need to do something, but to avoid ruining again something in order to
solve this problem, I need to hear some experiences:
1) A shroud over the cylinders. I don't have it, but instead I have two
naca ducts in the upper cowling, curved down to release air aimed at the
cylinders.
Has anyone ever tried whether the Rotax shroud (or home made shroud)
makes any difference? Sure, it will cool the cylinders, but does it have
any effect over the water temperature and/or oil temperature? Or is this
again going to be a loss in time and effort?
2) In my setup the oil cooler receives exit air from the water cooler. I
know there is a "trick" mentioned in the build manual for hot climates
to lower the oil radiator 2 inches to receive cold air instead of warm
air, but I didn't opt for this as I don't consider our climate as
extremely warm, and in winter the oild could actually get too cold.
Has anyone tried both options, and did it make much difference? Also,
did it have any influence over the water temperature? Relocating the oil
radiator will be a large project, and I fear that after that I will
still have to limit my climb outs to avoid the water from boiling.
Yesterday on the airfield I took a closer look at the Rotax 914 equipped
Dimona, which is used by the glider club to tow all day long gliders,
with full power at 50 knots, in all ambient temperatures. They never
have cooling problems.
What I saw was shocking. The water radiator is fully exposed to the
airstream, no diffuser whatsoever, it is just part of the cowling, as if
someone took out some skin of the cowling and fitted the radiator in the
resulting hole. The oil radiator is mounted in an angle behind a naca
duct (I was taught that a naca duct does not provide ram air and
shouldn't be used for cooling a radiator?). Both radiators just dump the
warm air inside the cowling! It can't be easier than that.
Then, at the bottom, the Dimona has a cowl flap which just opens the
cowling to dump *all* air overboard. If it is closed, all radiators, as
well as all cowling ventilation, is blocked.
How can this system, which looks less sophisticated than our system,
while violating all rules and knowledge, work so well?
Anyway. At the moment I'm grounded, can't fly like this, and after
spending a week trying to improve things with zero effect, I'm out of
options and I'm inclined to leave the airplane in the hangar and find
another hobby. :-(
Seriously, what should I do?
Frans
Message 2
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
Be 100% sure that no air are bleeding out through gaps around your air
baffles! Just a little gab is enough to spoil your day.
Regards Gert
OY-GDS / mono / 914 / 500 hours
Den 05/06/2010 kl. 12.28 skrev Frans Veldman:
<frans@privatepilots.nl>
>
> Gentlemen,
>
> Although my initial cooling issues have been improved upon, I'm not
> satisfied at all with the cooling of my 914.
>
> Now, with increasing ambient temperatures, I have to severely limit my
> climb outs. Cruising is ok. During climb, both the water temperature
and
> oil temperature approach the red line, more or less at the same time.
> Water temperature recovers faster than the oil temperature after I
power
> down. At this time I can barely make it to circuit height and then
have
> to level off, build more speed, and then limit my climb with 200
ft/min
> until I'm in cooler air. The engine has now 32 hours on it, so it
might
> still improve somewhat further, but I don't expect miracles from that.
>
> I had to do something.
> First I made an additional exit in the cowling, under the turbo,
hoping
> to provide more airflow. Whether the airflow in the cowling improved I
> don't know, but it had zero effect on the water and oil temperatures.
>
> Temperatures inside the cowling seem to be ok anyway, no discoloured
> spark plug indicator labels (still bright yellow), no melted
tie-wraps, etc.
>
> My conclusion was that the problem is not in cooling of the cowling,
but
> somewhere in the efficiency of the radiators.
>
> So then I built a new radiator inlet, somewhat larger than previous
one,
> with a lip to avoid digesting the boundary layer and making sure the
> inlet receives ram air, angled straight into the airflow, and with a
> diffuser for which I copied a profile out of a famous book.
>
> It was no improvement over my "free style" sleeker inlet and diffuser.
> None. Very frustrating, as I ruined my nicely shaped and painted
> original inlet for this.
>
> I need to do something, but to avoid ruining again something in order
to
> solve this problem, I need to hear some experiences:
>
> 1) A shroud over the cylinders. I don't have it, but instead I have
two
> naca ducts in the upper cowling, curved down to release air aimed at
the
> cylinders.
> Has anyone ever tried whether the Rotax shroud (or home made shroud)
> makes any difference? Sure, it will cool the cylinders, but does it
have
> any effect over the water temperature and/or oil temperature? Or is
this
> again going to be a loss in time and effort?
>
> 2) In my setup the oil cooler receives exit air from the water cooler.
I
> know there is a "trick" mentioned in the build manual for hot climates
> to lower the oil radiator 2 inches to receive cold air instead of warm
> air, but I didn't opt for this as I don't consider our climate as
> extremely warm, and in winter the oild could actually get too cold.
> Has anyone tried both options, and did it make much difference? Also,
> did it have any influence over the water temperature? Relocating the
oil
> radiator will be a large project, and I fear that after that I will
> still have to limit my climb outs to avoid the water from boiling.
>
> Yesterday on the airfield I took a closer look at the Rotax 914
equipped
> Dimona, which is used by the glider club to tow all day long gliders,
> with full power at 50 knots, in all ambient temperatures. They never
> have cooling problems.
>
> What I saw was shocking. The water radiator is fully exposed to the
> airstream, no diffuser whatsoever, it is just part of the cowling, as
if
> someone took out some skin of the cowling and fitted the radiator in
the
> resulting hole. The oil radiator is mounted in an angle behind a naca
> duct (I was taught that a naca duct does not provide ram air and
> shouldn't be used for cooling a radiator?). Both radiators just dump
the
> warm air inside the cowling! It can't be easier than that.
> Then, at the bottom, the Dimona has a cowl flap which just opens the
> cowling to dump *all* air overboard. If it is closed, all radiators,
as
> well as all cowling ventilation, is blocked.
> How can this system, which looks less sophisticated than our system,
> while violating all rules and knowledge, work so well?
>
> Anyway. At the moment I'm grounded, can't fly like this, and after
> spending a week trying to improve things with zero effect, I'm out of
> options and I'm inclined to leave the airplane in the hangar and find
> another hobby. :-(
>
> Seriously, what should I do?
>
> Frans
>
>
>
>
Message 3
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
On 06/05/2010 01:22 PM, Lisbet og Gert Dalgaard wrote:
> Be 100% sure that no air are bleeding out through gaps around your air
> baffles!
I replaced the entire Europa duct, but it mates with the cowling at some
point of course. I didn't have the impression that it was very leaky,
but at the moment I'm waiting for PUR-foam to cure (one side taped off
of course) to see if there was indeed a leak. I'm hoping there was a
leak, and I saw some bugs piled up in one corner just before the
radiator, so that is a hopefull sign. :-)
Frans
Message 4
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
I have the stock Europa cooling duct with the oil cooler lowered to the
bottom of the cowling. As Gert suggests below, all gaps are sealed well,
including the bottom of the oil cooler to the cowling and the sides of
both coolers to the aluminum duct.
I flew last week to Death Valley with a friend in the right seat. When
we departed furnace creek(L06) the OAT was about 90 F. The climb from
200' below sea level to 11,000' at 90 to 100 knots indicated showed oil
temps up to 240 F and the Evans coolant 230. CHT is always within 10
deg. of the coolant.
I have been climbing most of the time at airspeeds around 100 knots and
100% (34"map) which yeilds a healthy climb rate. The temps inside the
cowl have gotten high enough to deform the spark plug indicator labels.
I wraped the exhaust pipes, but I'm not sure if that helped really
because I don't have the cowl temps monitored.
The OAT should exceed 100F today. Whew!
Best of luck, Kevin
Mono intercooled 914 Airmaster prop
----- Original Message -----
From: Lisbet og Gert Dalgaard
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 4:22 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again!
Be 100% sure that no air are bleeding out through gaps around your air
baffles! Just a little gab is enough to spoil your day.
Regards Gert
OY-GDS / mono / 914 / 500 hours
Den 05/06/2010 kl. 12.28 skrev Frans Veldman:
<frans@privatepilots.nl>
Gentlemen,
Although my initial cooling issues have been improved upon, I'm not
satisfied at all with the cooling of my 914.
Now, with increasing ambient temperatures, I have to severely limit
my
climb outs. Cruising is ok. During climb, both the water temperature
and
oil temperature approach the red line, more or less at the same
time.
Water temperature recovers faster than the oil temperature after I
power
down. At this time I can barely make it to circuit height and then
have
to level off, build more speed, and then limit my climb with 200
ft/min
until I'm in cooler air. The engine has now 32 hours on it, so it
might
still improve somewhat further, but I don't expect miracles from
that.
I had to do something.
First I made an additional exit in the cowling, under the turbo,
hoping
to provide more airflow. Whether the airflow in the cowling improved
I
don't know, but it had zero effect on the water and oil
temperatures.
Temperatures inside the cowling seem to be ok anyway, no discoloured
spark plug indicator labels (still bright yellow), no melted
tie-wraps, etc.
My conclusion was that the problem is not in cooling of the cowling,
but
somewhere in the efficiency of the radiators.
So then I built a new radiator inlet, somewhat larger than previous
one,
with a lip to avoid digesting the boundary layer and making sure the
inlet receives ram air, angled straight into the airflow, and with a
diffuser for which I copied a profile out of a famous book.
It was no improvement over my "free style" sleeker inlet and
diffuser.
None. Very frustrating, as I ruined my nicely shaped and painted
original inlet for this.
I need to do something, but to avoid ruining again something in
order to
solve this problem, I need to hear some experiences:
1) A shroud over the cylinders. I don't have it, but instead I have
two
naca ducts in the upper cowling, curved down to release air aimed at
the
cylinders.
Has anyone ever tried whether the Rotax shroud (or home made shroud)
makes any difference? Sure, it will cool the cylinders, but does it
have
any effect over the water temperature and/or oil temperature? Or is
this
again going to be a loss in time and effort?
2) In my setup the oil cooler receives exit air from the water
cooler. I
know there is a "trick" mentioned in the build manual for hot
climates
to lower the oil radiator 2 inches to receive cold air instead of
warm
air, but I didn't opt for this as I don't consider our climate as
extremely warm, and in winter the oild could actually get too cold.
Has anyone tried both options, and did it make much difference?
Also,
did it have any influence over the water temperature? Relocating the
oil
radiator will be a large project, and I fear that after that I will
still have to limit my climb outs to avoid the water from boiling.
Yesterday on the airfield I took a closer look at the Rotax 914
equipped
Dimona, which is used by the glider club to tow all day long
gliders,
with full power at 50 knots, in all ambient temperatures. They never
have cooling problems.
What I saw was shocking. The water radiator is fully exposed to the
airstream, no diffuser whatsoever, it is just part of the cowling,
as if
someone took out some skin of the cowling and fitted the radiator in
the
resulting hole. The oil radiator is mounted in an angle behind a
naca
duct (I was taught that a naca duct does not provide ram air and
shouldn't be used for cooling a radiator?). Both radiators just dump
the
warm air inside the cowling! It can't be easier than that.
Then, at the bottom, the Dimona has a cowl flap which just opens the
cowling to dump *all* air overboard. If it is closed, all radiators,
as
well as all cowling ventilation, is blocked.
How can this system, which looks less sophisticated than our system,
while violating all rules and knowledge, work so well?
Anyway. At the moment I'm grounded, can't fly like this, and after
spending a week trying to improve things with zero effect, I'm out
of
options and I'm inclined to leave the airplane in the hangar and
find
another hobby. :-(
Seriously, what should I - The Europa-List -->
http://www.matroni &n -
&nbs -->
http://www.matronics.com/co================
Message 5
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
On 06/05/2010 03:26 PM, Kevin Klinefelter wrote:
> I flew last week to Death Valley with a friend in the right seat. When
> we departed furnace creek(L06) the OAT was about 90 F. The climb from
> 200' below sea level to 11,000' at 90 to 100 knots indicated showed oil
> temps up to 240 F and the Evans coolant 230. CHT is always within 10
> deg. of the coolant.
Amazing!
Do you have the Rotax shroud fitted over the cylinders?
Has your engine had initial (< 50 hours) cooling issues?
Has your oil cooler been lowered from the beginning, or did you relocate
it later? If so, did it make some difference to the CHT's as well?
Frans
Message 6
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
Frans,
I flew last summer in temperatures in the high 90's to low 100's (35C-41C) with
no signs of overheating.
I have the stock FWF 914 setup with the following changes:
1. The lowered oil cooler.
2. I have sealed the sides of the radiators to the aluminum duct with silicone
rubber seal
3. I have sealed the bottom of the oil cooler to the cowl with a foam strip
4. I replaced all the factory supplied tape for the front of the duct with wide
silicone rubber seal
5. I smoothed the inside lower lip of the cowl intake with blue foam and 2 lays
of glass to reduce turbulence and smooth flow
I do not have the Rotax shroud over the cylinders but will consider it should cooling
be inadequate this summer.
I hope this helps,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232
http://www.biplaneforumgallery.com/index.php?cat=10046
Europa Flying!
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Jun 5, 2010, at 5:28, Frans Veldman wrote:
>
> Gentlemen,
>
> Although my initial cooling issues have been improved upon, I'm not
> satisfied at all with the cooling of my 914.
>
> Seriously, what should I do?
>
> Frans
Message 7
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
On 06/05/2010 04:56 PM, Robert Borger wrote:
> I have the stock FWF 914 setup with the following changes:
>
> 1. The lowered oil cooler.
Ok, it seems the common solution here is to lower the oil cooler. As I
have fabricated my own duct, this is not possible in my setup. This
means I will probably have to relocate the oil cooler and give it a
dedicated inlet.
One question: if you lower the oil cooler, how are the two coolers
sealed against each other? Can air flow freely around the water cooler
to reach the oil cooler? This means that the air in front of the water
cooler will see an easier path and just forget about the water cooler?
Is there anyone with adequate cooling on warmer days with both radiators
behind each other, as the manual calls for? Or is this plainly
impossible to achieve?
Frans
Message 8
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
Hi All,
I am curious to know if there are any examples of standard XS cooling set
up's that do not have the oil radiator lowered that work fine.
Thanks, Paul
Message 9
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
>>>>How can this system, which looks less sophisticated than our system,
while violating all rules and knowledge, work so well?
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300132#300132
Message 10
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
Frans,
I have the 912 set up so I might not know what I'l talking about but...
I had the very same issues for the first 150 hours. Every time it got
hot I was in trouble with temps at their limit. I made the shroud for
over the cylinders. I lowered the oil radiator 2 inches behind the
water, I sealed everything, I made new inlets in the upper cowl, and
still didn't get it solved completely. I then finally lowered the
metal duct down an inch or so, so the bottom radiator reached the
lower cowl without the sealant and bam. My temps dropped 30 to 40
degrees. I believe two things helped in this. The radiators we're
getting more air but the big thing was by lowering the duct it opened
the bottom for escaping air. Not sure if this all applies to you but
if you have the duct up to high close to the muff all you need to do
is lower it. You'l be needing to ad a flap in colder days to get
things in the proper temp range.
By the way the shroud did even the cylinder temps out but it didn't do
much to cool the water or oil.
Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush
On Jun 5, 2010, at 5:28 AM, Frans Veldman wrote:
> >
>
> Gentlemen,
>
> Although my initial cooling issues have been improved upon, I'm not
> satisfied at all with the cooling of my 914.
>
> Now, with increasing ambient temperatures, I have to severely limit my
> climb outs. Cruising is ok. During climb, both the water temperature
> and
> oil temperature approach the red line, more or less at the same time.
> Water temperature recovers faster than the oil temperature after I
> power
> down. At this time I can barely make it to circuit height and then
> have
> to level off, build more speed, and then limit my climb with 200 ft/
> min
> until I'm in cooler air. The engine has now 32 hours on it, so it
> might
> still improve somewhat further, but I don't expect miracles from that.
>
> I had to do something.
> First I made an additional exit in the cowling, under the turbo,
> hoping
> to provide more airflow. Whether the airflow in the cowling improved I
> don't know, but it had zero effect on the water and oil temperatures.
>
> Temperatures inside the cowling seem to be ok anyway, no discoloured
> spark plug indicator labels (still bright yellow), no melted tie-
> wraps, etc.
>
> My conclusion was that the problem is not in cooling of the cowling,
> but
> somewhere in the efficiency of the radiators.
>
> So then I built a new radiator inlet, somewhat larger than previous
> one,
> with a lip to avoid digesting the boundary layer and making sure the
> inlet receives ram air, angled straight into the airflow, and with a
> diffuser for which I copied a profile out of a famous book.
>
> It was no improvement over my "free style" sleeker inlet and diffuser.
> None. Very frustrating, as I ruined my nicely shaped and painted
> original inlet for this.
>
> I need to do something, but to avoid ruining again something in
> order to
> solve this problem, I need to hear some experiences:
>
> 1) A shroud over the cylinders. I don't have it, but instead I have
> two
> naca ducts in the upper cowling, curved down to release air aimed at
> the
> cylinders.
> Has anyone ever tried whether the Rotax shroud (or home made shroud)
> makes any difference? Sure, it will cool the cylinders, but does it
> have
> any effect over the water temperature and/or oil temperature? Or is
> this
> again going to be a loss in time and effort?
>
> 2) In my setup the oil cooler receives exit air from the water
> cooler. I
> know there is a "trick" mentioned in the build manual for hot climates
> to lower the oil radiator 2 inches to receive cold air instead of warm
> air, but I didn't opt for this as I don't consider our climate as
> extremely warm, and in winter the oild could actually get too cold.
> Has anyone tried both options, and did it make much difference? Also,
> did it have any influence over the water temperature? Relocating the
> oil
> radiator will be a large project, and I fear that after that I will
> still have to limit my climb outs to avoid the water from boiling.
>
> Yesterday on the airfield I took a closer look at the Rotax 914
> equipped
> Dimona, which is used by the glider club to tow all day long gliders,
> with full power at 50 knots, in all ambient temperatures. They never
> have cooling problems.
>
> What I saw was shocking. The water radiator is fully exposed to the
> airstream, no diffuser whatsoever, it is just part of the cowling,
> as if
> someone took out some skin of the cowling and fitted the radiator in
> the
> resulting hole. The oil radiator is mounted in an angle behind a naca
> duct (I was taught that a naca duct does not provide ram air and
> shouldn't be used for cooling a radiator?). Both radiators just dump
> the
> warm air inside the cowling! It can't be easier than that.
> Then, at the bottom, the Dimona has a cowl flap which just opens the
> cowling to dump *all* air overboard. If it is closed, all radiators,
> as
> well as all cowling ventilation, is blocked.
> How can this system, which looks less sophisticated than our system,
> while violating all rules and knowledge, work so well?
>
> Anyway. At the moment I'm grounded, can't fly like this, and after
> spending a week trying to improve things with zero effect, I'm out of
> options and I'm inclined to leave the airplane in the hangar and find
> another hobby. :-(
>
> Seriously, what should I do?
>
> Frans
>
>
Message 11
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Cooling issues, once again! |
Frans and all
My aircraft (G-IANI)is a 914 with no shroud and the standard cowl. The
aircraft ran hot on UK "hot" days until I lowered the oil cooler. We also
had the same with G-IRON.
Lowering the Oil radiator as far as possible and ensuring complete sealing
all round fixed the problem. They both run cool in winter (oil temp 70 -
80c rather than the desirable 100c and this is the reason for the thermostat
mod.
I have used a rubber strip attached to the top of the oil rad to seal the
gap between it and the water rad. This stops the air taking the short cut.
You can just see this seal (black rubber) in the attached picture.
I have more pictures and details if you want them.
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours
Europa Club Mods Specialist
e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com
Message 12
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
Frans,I would suggest that you take a look at the bottom of the cowl, where all
of the air escapes from inside the cowl..No cooling will take place unless the
air inside the cowl can get out. You said you replaced the entire duct work...You
may have restricted the exit area in some form or other. If you see anything
that will restrict the flow of air to the outside, can it be moved? Can
it be reduced in size? It is critical thatthe exit area does not restrict the
flow of the exit air...
Jim Brown
Europa XS 914
---- Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl> wrote:
>
> On 06/05/2010 01:22 PM, Lisbet og Gert Dalgaard wrote:
> > Be 100% sure that no air are bleeding out through gaps around your air
> > baffles!
>
> I replaced the entire Europa duct, but it mates with the cowling at some
> point of course. I didn't have the impression that it was very leaky,
> but at the moment I'm waiting for PUR-foam to cure (one side taped off
> of course) to see if there was indeed a leak. I'm hoping there was a
> leak, and I saw some bugs piled up in one corner just before the
> radiator, so that is a hopefull sign. :-)
>
> Frans
>
>
>
>
Message 13
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
Paul,
I don't see how it can. Simple thermodynamics is against it. Heat transfer is
directly proportional to temperature difference. Both radiators are at about
the same temperature. Once the air has been heated by the first radiator its
ability to accept heat from the second has been greatly reduced if not eliminated.
And this is assuming that the area below the radiators has been sealed so that
the air goes through the radiators and not under them, doing no good at all.
Check six,
Bob Borger
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
Europa XS, Short Wing, Intercooled Rotax 914
rlborger@mac.com
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Jun 5, 2010, at 11:43 AM, Paul McAllister wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I am curious to know if there are any examples of standard XS cooling set up's
that do not have the oil radiator lowered that work fine.
>
> Thanks, Paul
>
>
>
Message 14
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Cooling issues, once again! |
Frans,
I have a standard XS 914 installation. In the early days I had a problem
with cooling until I lowered the oil cooler in accordance with the build
manual. Once the cooler was lowered I had no problems whatsoever until I
filled the system with Evans. That pushed the temperatures close to the
limit, so I threw the Evans away. Since then I have had no issues. True,
UK summer temperatures are not in the same league as our American friends...
I recall that the temperature in my yard in Phoenix, Az occasionally was
120+. However, UK temperatures are very similar to the Netherlands.
I refer to your email dated 2 Mar 2009, your theory and confidence was most
impressive. Your penultimate paragraph was quite damming. I quote.
>>Of course, al this is theory. Because the cooling properties of the
>>factory cowling are so bad, I believe that it would actually be
>>difficult to make it worse. So chances are that my cooling at least
>>gives some better cooling and aerodynamics.
Perhaps Ivan, Andy and Neville at Europa had a better clue than you give
them credit for.
If I was one of the boys, I might be tempted to send you a big piece of
'Humble Pie'.
Regards,
Mike
Message 15
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
On 06/05/2010 08:02 PM, Robert Borger wrote:
> Once the air has been
> heated by the first radiator its ability to accept heat from the second
> has been greatly reduced if not eliminated.
Ok, thanks everyone! The picture is much more clear to me now. It seems
that splitting up the oil and water radiator is the way to go.
About a month ago, the system was working quite ok. Amazing how little
OAT difference can spoil the setup.
When I saw the Europa radiator setup for the first time, I had some
doubts about it. But because the Europa lacks a thermostat, I figured
that the oil cooler behind the water radiator was on purpose, to prevent
the oil temps from dropping too low. The manual explicitely calls for
"hot climats" to use the "option" to lower the oil radiator. With
hindsight, I think this description is somewhat misleading.
As some have noticed, I trimmed down the cooling duct considerably,
added a diffuser, added a cowl flap, to optimize both aerodynamics and
cooling capacity. Although it seems my ship is indeed quite fast for a
tri-gear, the oil cooler is not going to work efficiently this way. Too
bad that I don't have room to lower the oil radiator, so I'm going to
have to relocate the oil cooler. I now appreciate the term "experimental
airplane". :-S
Some have mentioned that the exit area of the cowling might be a
problem. However, so far I have no indication that the exit area is the
bottleneck. In area it is bigger than the inlet, and I have no signs of
elevated cowling temperatures like discoloured spark plug labels. Also,
some experiments to open up more cowl space had zero effects on the
temperatures.
I'm glad to hear that the Rotax shroud isn't a necessary item.
Thanks everyone!
Frans
Message 16
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
On 06/05/2010 08:38 PM, Mike Parkin wrote:
> I have a standard XS 914 installation. In the early days I had a problem
> with cooling until I lowered the oil cooler in accordance with the build
> manual.
Ok, this is in line with other experiences. Thanks for sharing this.
> I refer to your email dated 2 Mar 2009, your theory and confidence was most
> impressive.
I was waiting for this to pop up. ;-) No problem at all, I'm still
behind it, I just feel somewhat mislead by the strong suggestion of the
manual that the oil cooler behind the water radiator is the standard
setup for normal climats, and I followed that guideline. Granted, I
should have known better.
Anyway, if I write something on this forum, it is "sharing knowledge"
and not a competitive attempt. I will as easily explain why I divert
from the manual some times, and as easily seek for help on this forum if
I experience problems. I don't really care about ego, so I find it
somewhat humorous if an attempt to receive some experiences from others
is answered by an answer like yours.
> Perhaps Ivan, Andy and Neville at Europa had a better clue than you give
> them credit for.
IF their original setup, with the non-lowered oil radiator as the
factory manual calls for, works better than my current setup. And that
remains to be seen...
At least it looks like my claim to have better aerodynamics might be
true, with a cooling system that performs, let's say, not worse than the
factory setup with the radiators in the "standard" configuration. ;-)
Well, I will split up the oil and water radiator, as apparently everyone
has done, and then we can do the comparison again. ;-)
> If I was one of the boys, I might be tempted to send you a big piece of
> 'Humble Pie'.
If I was one of these boys, I would be tempted so as well, IF my work
was a masterpiece of enginering, well thought out, working in hot
climates AND cold climates, and with no excess drag, and with even
cylinder temperatures. However, it looks like the standard factory
setup, with the coolers in series, is not exactly the best solution for
everyone.
So, have some fun about me. It is not the first time people laugh about
work in progress. Finally, I might end up with an improvement over the
factory setup, in both aerodynamics and in cooling capacity. Goal 1
appears to have been achieved already. I consider solving problems as a
privilege of building the airplane yourself, and you can't have it right
the first time everyime.
Frans
Message 17
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Cooling issues, once again! |
Yes, mine! but it is a 912S. I have always had low oil temps and have now
fitted the oil thermostat so that they are not too low in winter.
Regards
Brian Davies
Kit 454, Trigear
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister
Sent: 05 June 2010 17:44
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again!
Hi All,
I am curious to know if there are any examples of standard XS cooling set
up's that do not have the oil radiator lowered that work fine.
Thanks, Paul
Message 18
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Cooling issues, once again! |
While it is true that "heat transfer is directly proportional to temperature
difference" that does not tell the whole story. First, remember that the
relevant temperature difference is the difference between the temperature of
the fluid on the inside and the air on the outside, and even with pre-heated
air the second radiator could have the same delta T as the first radiator.
I'll grant you that there is probably a difference, however.
Also relevant, and non-trivial, are the area of the heat transfer surface,
the flow rate of the liquids inside the heat exchangers (radiators, in
common aircraft and automotive parlance), the flow rate of the air outside
these heat exchangers, the heat transfer coefficients for each of the fluids
involved, the heat transfer coefficients of the materials from which the
radiators are made, the effect of any scale or similar deposits on the heat
transfer surfaces (both inside and outside), Reynolds numbers for the
flowing fluids (a function of flow rates and fluid properties), and the
physical properties the radiators and of the coolant and oil flowing within
the heat exchangers.
Having said all of that, there is no doubt that "re-using" the cooling air
will affect heat transfer within the radiator using pre-heated air, and this
is undoubtedly why Europa recommend placing one below the other.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Borger
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again!
Paul,
I don't see how it can. Simple thermodynamics is against it. Heat transfer
is directly proportional to temperature difference. Both radiators are at
about the same temperature. Once the air has been heated by the first
radiator its ability to accept heat from the second has been greatly reduced
if not eliminated.
And this is assuming that the area below the radiators has been sealed so
that the air goes through the radiators and not under them, doing no good at
all.
Check six,
Bob Borger
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
Europa XS, Short Wing, Intercooled Rotax 914
rlborger@mac.com
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Jun 5, 2010, at 11:43 AM, Paul McAllister wrote:
Hi All,
I am curious to know if there are any examples of standard XS cooling set
up's that do not have the oil radiator lowered that work fine.
Thanks, Paul
Message 19
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
On 06/05/2010 09:26 PM, Rob Housman wrote:
> Having said all of that, there is no doubt that re-using the cooling
> air will affect heat transfer within the radiator using pre-heated air,
> and this is undoubtedly why Europa recommend placing one below the other.
Another reason might be that the oil cooler in the air exit path of the
water radiator is an obstacle that hinders the air flow in the water
radiator?
Looking closer to both radiators, It appears to me that the oil cooler
has closer spaced fins, thicker fluid canals, and an overall smaller
useful area.
It might be that this is the reason why lowering the oil radiator also
causes the water temperatures to drop.
Frans
Message 20
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
You could be right there Frans. btw theory says that cowl inlet should be m
uch smaller than rad area so that some pressure recovery can happen, also l
ips must be smooth.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________
=0AFrom: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics
.com=0ASent: Saturday, 5 June, 2010 21:27:33=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Co
dman <frans@privatepilots.nl>=0A=0AOn 06/05/2010 09:26 PM, Rob Housman wrot
e:=0A=0ALooking closer to both radiators, It appears to me that the oil coo
ler=0Ahas closer spaced fins, thicker fluid canals, and an overall smaller
=0Auseful area.=0AIt might be that this is the reason why lowering the oil
radiator also=0Acauses the water temperatures to drop.=0A=0AFrans=0A=0A=0A_
-========================
===============
Message 21
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Cooling issues, once again! |
I have been following the cooling topic and wondered what the forum
thought about using Evans coolant?
I noticed Kevin uses Evans from his Death Valley flight description, but
Mike Parkin threw his away!
I am about to refill my radiators and was considering Evans as the way
to go. I am based in Colorado and expect hotter temperatures in the
summer than northern Europe and cooler ones in the winter.
I would welcome anyone=99s advice and experiences.
BTW =93 on my 912UL installation the Oil cooler was lowered and
made a dramatic difference =93 stable temperatures and no sign of
overheating when the aircraft was flying in the UK. I am considering
lowering the Oil Cooler for my 914 installation for the temperatures get
up to the high end of the scale during climb out, but do stabilize in
the cruise.
Robert Hatton
email: roberthatton1@googlemail.com
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM
SINGLETON
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again!
You could be right there Frans. btw theory says that cowl inlet should
be much smaller than rad area so that some pressure recovery can happen,
also lips must be smooth.
Graham
_____
From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
Sent: Saturday, 5 June, 2010 21:27:33
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again!
<frans@privatepilots.nl>
On 06/05/2010 09:26 PM, Rob Housman wrote:
Looking closer to both radiators, It appears to me that the oil cooler
has closer spaced fins, thicker fluid canals, and an overall smaller
useful area.
It might be that this is the reason why lowering the oil radiator also
causes the water tem/Navigator?Europa-List"
="http://forums.matronics.com"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.
 tronics.com/contribution"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contri========
=======
Message 22
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | deviations from manual |
Deviating from the standard build can be a slippery slope...I find a
sense of humor helps,
Fred
A194
do not archive
DSCN2392.JPG
Message 23
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
Hi Frans
My 2 cents from someone not yet flying.
First off I have an XS with Monowheel with standard stainless firewall and intercooler
on starboard side, both hinder cooling.
Here is some information. Not in any sort of organized order:
**Gilles did a beautiful job making a cowl for his tiny 914 powered craft. No two
holes even in front, only one cooling air baffle intake. I think he has his
radiators stacked one behind other. anyway here is some links:
http://contrails.free.fr/engine_aerodyn_radia_en.php
http://contrails.free.fr/tunnel_en.php
http://contrails.free.fr/diap/phpslideshow.php?directory=diapo_capot_if
He says very sucessfull install.
**With Rotax 914 it is best to make sure you are not running too lean. Using a
carbon monoxide tester is an awful good solution. Not only can you measure each
cylinder when making war emergency power (115%), you can also verify 100% and
85% is OK too. Throwing a little gas on the fire in fact helps keep things cool.
I have incorporated a rich switch that activates the enrichment solenoid
at will, I suspect 85% on up will run cooler when you enrich a little (computer
does it for you over 100% power, best diode isolate your input so as to not
hurt TCU). If you are interested will give full details. Again mixture is critical
not running too lean at high power setting, mogas with alcohol will run leaner
than mogas without alcohol, thus even if 914 was factory jetted, I question
just how well the jetting is with the stuff coming out of mogas pump. Main
jet, jet needle and needle jet control 85% on up mixture, main jet mostly at
full throttle. I am going to run a bit rich and use mixture control to lean to
my liking.
**Constipation is a big problem, Ira mentioned using an airspeed indicator to see
where high and low pressure area is. You can read here what I am doing:
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=28737
I want to be able to cool in worst case scenario, and will warm things up with
an oil thermostat and an air plug in the intake of radiator duct (reversed direction
fan).
To unconstipate going to drop aft part of cowl ~3/4 to 1", and widen the exit
area of cowl a bit. I will also use two model aeroplane electric motors to exhaust
through gills on ground and in climb. Will use a model aeroplane folding
propeller fan in radiator duct to help pressurize duct on ground and in climb.
It will be reversible to hinder cooling (and hopeful drag) in cruise. You don't
need much amps to cause an awful clog.
**I am going to get my radiator coated with a coating that supposedly increases
efficency.
**I will have my exhaust coated with a coating that is supposedly time tested from
Rotax research arm, limits some heat going into cowl. If I want to limit more
heat going into cowl will wrap exhaust, but makes for harder inspection. BTW
Gilles wrapped his turbo.
**I am installing Rotax cooling air baffle. One problem with the baffle is upon
shut down it tends to hold in more heat than without the baffle. With my fans,
will just let run on low upon shut down.
**Using something like an automobile windshield washer pump and spray head misting
radiators with water could keep you cool till you hit on something that works.
I have a 2004 Volvo V-70 turbo and it has two, 3 stream spray head mister
that does a pretty good job, you would only need one. This is completely off
topic, but if you ever get someone tailgating you when driving and there is no
need for someone to be doing this, spray your windshield washer, I mean continuous,
yes it will cost you a refill but will make the tailgater back away (way
annoying to tailgater) and gratifying to you. Have a friend do this to you to
see just how well it works.
**Instead of guessing put some temp measuring instruments in various locations
FWF, once you get a baseline you can see how you are doing. That goes too for
measuring pressures.
**As far as dropping oil radiator, think an awful good idea (or move it), remember
Europa radiator is a lot deeper than other MFGs use.
**My decision to go route of tweaking supplied cowl/cooling system instead of major
rethink, is not only time required (ask Paul about speed of such a project),
but distinct fooling probably needed after the fact that it may never be
to my liking before I lose interest and ability.
Kudos to Gilles to bringing his cowl/cooling to fruition!
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300164#300164
Message 24
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: deviations from manual |
That got a chuckle Fred!=0A=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________
________=0AFrom: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>=0ATo: europa-list@matr
onics.com=0ASent: Saturday, 5 June, 2010 23:46:52=0ASubject: Europa-List: d
eviations from manual=0A=0A=0ADeviating from the standard build can be a sl
ippery slope...I find a sense of humor helps,=0A=0AFred =0AA194=0A=0Ado not
archive=0A=0A=0A=0ADSCN2392.JPG
Message 25
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
Frans=0Amight be worth doing an oil flow test flight. Paint old engine oil
on the fromnt of the cowling, fly at climb speed for a few minutes to stabi
lze the airflow pattern then land and take photos.=0AAll the EZ gurus do th
is and they have impressive results, especially Gary Hertzler, he's my favo
urite guru.=0A=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFr
om: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com
=0ASent: Saturday, 5 June, 2010 11:28:25=0ASubject: Europa-List: Cooling is
ans@privatepilots.nl>=0A=0AGentlemen,=0A=0AAlthough my initial cooling issu
es have been improved upon, I'm not=0Asatisfied at all with the cooling of
my 914.
Message 26
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
Hey Paul,
I'd like to give you a call and don't have your no? Would you be able to beam it
over, and your address? Are you a Skype person, and if so, what is your Skype
name.
So, how are your mods going on your plane?
Reg
Tony R.
On 06/06/2010, at 2:43 AM, Paul McAllister wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I am curious to know if there are any examples of standard XS cooling set
> up's that do not have the oil radiator lowered that work fine.
>
> Thanks, Paul
Message 27
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
Hey Frans,
Sorry to hear about your cooling issues, especially after your effort with mods.
What is this PUR-foam all about please?? How many hours have you clocked up,
and how are you finding the bird??
Reg
Tony Renshaw
On 05/06/2010, at 10:50 PM, Frans Veldman wrote:
>
> On 06/05/2010 01:22 PM, Lisbet og Gert Dalgaard wrote:
>> Be 100% sure that no air are bleeding out through gaps around your air
>> baffles!
>
> I replaced the entire Europa duct, but it mates with the cowling at some
> point of course. I didn't have the impression that it was very leaky,
> but at the moment I'm waiting for PUR-foam to cure (one side taped off
> of course) to see if there was indeed a leak. I'm hoping there was a
> leak, and I saw some bugs piled up in one corner just before the
> radiator, so that is a hopefull sign. :-)
>
> Frans
>
>
>
>
Message 28
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
H Frans,
I have a few questions. Have you tried 100% power in straight and level
flight. If so, do you get sufficient cooling ?
If you are able to get sufficient cooling at 100 or even 115% power while
flying level then you know that your radiator capacity is correct and you
have issues with the inlet at high angles of attack.
Another possibility is that air is flowing out of your NACA vents at a high
angle of attack thus reversing the direction of air flow under the cowling
while climbing. The reason this is a possibility is that the low pressure
area moves forward at higher angle of attacks.
A couple of suggestions.
1. A gentle flight around the pattern with an 'oil streak' test to see if
the diffusers are working as expected.
2. 100% level flight test to see if you have sufficient cooling capacity
3. Blocking the NACA vents and seeing if what happens in the climb.
Finally, Ron's suggestion of a spray bar is a good one, it will keep you
flying until you get this all figured out.
Good luck, Paul
Message 29
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
Just my two cents worth... Drop the Evans idea. 50 50 runs much cooler
and you can get it anywhere. Why risk it.
Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush
On Jun 5, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Robert Hatton wrote:
> I have been following the cooling topic and wondered what the forum
> thought about using Evans coolant?
>
> I noticed Kevin uses Evans from his Death Valley flight description,
> but Mike Parkin threw his away!
>
> I am about to refill my radiators and was considering Evans as the
> way to go. I am based in Colorado and expect hotter temperatures in
> the summer than northern Europe and cooler ones in the winter.
>
> I would welcome anyone=92s advice and experiences.
>
> BTW ' on my 912UL installation the Oil cooler was lowered and made a
> dramatic difference ' stable temperatures and no sign of overheating
> when the aircraft was flying in the UK. I am considering lowering
> the Oil Cooler for my 914 installation for the temperatures get up
> to the high end of the scale during climb out, but do stabilize in
> the cruise.
>
> Robert Hatton
> email: roberthatton1@googlemail.com
>
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-
> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON
> Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 9:38 PM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again!
>
> You could be right there Frans. btw theory says that cowl inlet
> should be much smaller than rad area so that some pressure recovery
> can happen, also lips must be smooth.
> Graham
>
> From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, 5 June, 2010 21:27:33
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again!
>
<frans@privatepilots.nl
> >
>
> On 06/05/2010 09:26 PM, Rob Housman wrote:
>
> Looking closer to both radiators, It appears to me that the oil cooler
> has closer spaced fins, thicker fluid canals, and an overall smaller
> useful area.
> It might be that this is the reason why lowering the oil radiator also
> causes the water tem/Navigator?Europa-List"
="http://forums.matronics.com
> " target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.
>  tronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://
> www.matronics.com/contri================
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
Message 30
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cooling issues, once again! |
Hi Franz,
No, I do not have the cylinder shroud.
My engine now has 180 hrs. Before these last few flights all my flying was
done at lower, winter, temperatures (I have spent my summers working in
Alaska and decided to leave the plane in the hanger at KBIH till I get more
confidence landing this thing.)
My oil cooler has been lowered from the begining, in fact all has remained
the same except for adding the exhaust wrap and a cabin heater flap off the
back of the cooling duct.
I just got back from flying today. OAT at KBIH was 38c. At 100knots
indicated climb the oil stabilised at 230F and CHT at 245. The temps will go
higher at lower climb speeds, but that is at 100% (not 115%) and 5500rpm.
I can tell that running for very long on the ground at these high OATs will
not be good.
Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frans Veldman" <frans@privatepilots.nl>
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling issues, once again!
>
> On 06/05/2010 03:26 PM, Kevin Klinefelter wrote:
>
>> I flew last week to Death Valley with a friend in the right seat. When
>> we departed furnace creek(L06) the OAT was about 90 F. The climb from
>> 200' below sea level to 11,000' at 90 to 100 knots indicated showed oil
>> temps up to 240 F and the Evans coolant 230. CHT is always within 10
>> deg. of the coolant.
>
> Amazing!
> Do you have the Rotax shroud fitted over the cylinders?
> Has your engine had initial (< 50 hours) cooling issues?
> Has your oil cooler been lowered from the beginning, or did you relocate
> it later? If so, did it make some difference to the CHT's as well?
>
> Frans
>
>
>
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|