Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:40 AM - You'll Cry Pip Pins (Tony Renshaw)
2. 12:57 AM - Re: You'll Cry Pip Pins (David Joyce)
3. 01:07 AM - Re: You'll Cry Pip Pins (Frans Veldman)
4. 01:27 AM - Scottish trip - advice? (gtagr)
5. 02:42 AM - Re: You'll Cry Pip Pins (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
6. 02:56 AM - Re: You'll Cry Pip Pins (Bob Harrison)
7. 03:08 AM - Re: Scottish trip - advice? (Bob Harrison)
8. 06:45 AM - Re: You'll Cry Pip Pins (William Daniell)
9. 06:51 AM - Re: You'll Cry Pip Pins (houlihan)
10. 06:52 AM - Re: Scottish trip - advice? (David Joyce)
11. 06:59 AM - Spar pin (was You'll cry..) ()
12. 08:37 AM - Re: Spar pin (was You'll cry..) (gtagr)
13. 08:48 AM - Contact of Europa now at Wombleton .... (Bob Harrison)
14. 08:57 AM - Re: You'll Cry Pip Pins (Pete)
15. 08:59 AM - Re: Scottish trip - advice? (gtagr)
16. 08:59 AM - Re: Contact of Europa now at Wombleton .... (Donald Cameron)
17. 09:00 AM - Re: Spar pin (was You'll cry..) (Pete)
18. 09:01 AM - Re: Re: Spar pin (was You'll cry..) (Pete)
19. 09:03 AM - Re: Contact of Europa now at Wombleton .... (John Heykoop)
20. 09:54 AM - Re: Re: Scottish trip - advice? (Bob Harrison)
21. 10:02 AM - Re: You'll Cry Pip Pins (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
22. 10:06 AM - Re: You'll Cry Pip Pins (William Daniell)
23. 01:02 PM - Re: Scottish trip - advice? (graeme bird)
24. 01:15 PM - Re: You'll Cry Pip Pins (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
25. 01:48 PM - Re: You'll Cry Pip Pins (William Daniell)
26. 03:13 PM - Re: You'll Cry Pip Pins (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
27. 03:20 PM - Re: Contact of Europa now at Wombleton .... (Trevpond)
28. 03:57 PM - Re: Contact of Europa now at Wombleton .... (Bob Harrison)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | You'll Cry Pip Pins |
Hi Fred and co,
Isn't the width of the spars and seat back the depth of the shank of the pip pin?
Don't have it with me to measure.
Talking about pip pins, does anyone see any merit in using two of the Port pip
pins, another for the Std spar too?
Regards
Tony Renshaw
Sent from my iPad
On 07/06/2013, at 4:01 PM, Europa-List Digest Server <europa-list@matronics.com>
wrote:
> 1 _____________________________________
>
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: You'll Cry Pip Pins |
Tony, I opted to have 2 pippinned spar pins on the logic
that it confines the ends of the spars both sides and
almost certainly improves the strength of he combination,
which tend to twist and depart from the straight and
narrow under high load. It also looks neater! Regards,
David Joyce, GXSDJ
On Fri, 7 Jun 2013 16:40:13 +0900
Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com> wrote:
><tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>
>
> Hi Fred and co,
> Isn't the width of the spars and seat back the depth of
>the shank of the pip pin?
> Don't have it with me to measure.
> Talking about pip pins, does anyone see any merit in
>using two of the Port pip pins, another for the Std spar
>too?
>
> Regards
> Tony Renshaw
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 07/06/2013, at 4:01 PM, Europa-List Digest Server
><europa-list@matronics.com> wrote:
>
>> 1 _____________________________________
>>
>
>
>Un/Subscription,
>Forums!
>Admin.
>
>
>
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: You'll Cry Pip Pins |
On 06/07/2013 09:40 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote:
> Talking about pip pins, does anyone see any merit in using two of the Port pip
pins, another for the Std spar too?
If I recall correctly, there was some technical reason why both pip pins
are different. I forgot the details, but this discussion has been held
before and someone with insight argued why using a pip pin on the
starboard side was not such a good idea. It had something to do with the
different arrangement and thus different torsional loads on the
starboard side because the spars overlay "the other way around". The pin
had to be longer there to allow some movement, and because it needs to
have some play a pip pin can not be used (unless you make it longer than
it should be but then you need an additional retaining mechanism which
of course negates the whole idea of using a pip pin in the first place.)
Although I have modified my aircraft quite a lot, this is an area where
I am shy to deviate from the build plan, as it is one of the most
critical structural area's. As all of the other pins are pip pins my bet
is that there must have been a reason why to use a different arrangement
on this specific pin. Surely it can't be because it was cheaper or so,
or the designer was short of one pip pin and decided to work around it...
Regards,
Frans
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Scottish trip - advice? |
Fellow Europa flyers,
I'm planning to fly to Lerwick in the Shetlands and back, 6-13 July departing Wellesbourne.
Any thoughts/advice/recommends on fuel availability/routes/accommodation
please from those that have done a similar trip or who live in the localities?
Clive Sutton, G-TAGR
:)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402187#402187
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: You'll Cry Pip Pins |
Frans=0AThe pip pin on the port side is there to prevent the starboard spar
from twisting away from the =0Aport spar under high load. The starboard si
de has no need of retention because the overlapping =0Aspar provides that f
unction.=0AStrictly speaking the bush in the seat back bulkhead is of no va
lue, in fact it increases the load on the spars.=0ABe better without it as
per the motor glider. (but DYOR)=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A___________________
_____________=0A From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>=0ATo: europa-
list@matronics.com =0ASent: Friday, 7 June 2013, 9:07=0ASubject: Re: Europa
s Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>=0A=0AOn 06/07/2013 09:40 AM, Tony Rensha
w wrote:=0A=0A>- Talking about pip pins, does anyone see any merit in usi
ng two of the Port pip pins, another for the Std spar too?=0A=0AIf I recall
correctly, there was some technical reason why both pip pins=0Aare differe
nt. I forgot the details, but this discussion has been held=0Abefore and so
meone with insight argued why using a pip pin on the=0Astarboard side was n
ot such a good idea. It had something to do with the=0Adifferent arrangemen
t and thus different torsional loads on the=0Astarboard side because the sp
ars overlay "the other way around". The pin=0Ahad to be longer there to all
ow some movement, and because it needs to=0Ahave some play a pip pin can no
t be used (unless you make it longer than=0Ait should be but then you need
an additional retaining mechanism which=0Aof course negates the whole idea
of using a pip pin in the first place.)=0A=0AAlthough I have modified my ai
rcraft quite a lot, this is an area where=0AI am shy to deviate from the bu
ild plan, as it is one of the most=0Acritical structural area's. As all of
the other pins are pip pins my bet=0Ais that there must have been a reason
why to use a different arrangement=0Aon this specific pin. Surely it can't
be because it was cheaper or so,=0Aor the designer was short of one pip pin
=============
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | You'll Cry Pip Pins |
Hi! Frans/all.
I used two spar pip pins from the outset since it needs remembering by a
novice helper as to which side is which. But my suggestion is that the last
thing I would wish is for one spar to migrate off the end of the pin . This
whole concept was protected somewhat by the installation of the "cuff"
encompassing both spars which came later in the development. Perhaps Neville
will elucidate somewhat, since he does helpfully monitor this forum? It is
my opinion that the original Europa team did decide to go for the cheap
option. Any end play on the pip pins has been taken up by stacking washers
under the heads of the pins when first installing the seat back bushings.
However it is critical to ensure that the pip pins have got right "home" to
allow their safety balls to expand.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman
Sent: 07 June 2013 09:07
Subject: Re: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins
--> <frans@privatepilots.nl>
On 06/07/2013 09:40 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote:
> Talking about pip pins, does anyone see any merit in using two of the
Port pip pins, another for the Std spar too?
If I recall correctly, there was some technical reason why both pip pins are
different. I forgot the details, but this discussion has been held before
and someone with insight argued why using a pip pin on the starboard side
was not such a good idea. It had something to do with the different
arrangement and thus different torsional loads on the starboard side because
the spars overlay "the other way around". The pin had to be longer there to
allow some movement, and because it needs to have some play a pip pin can
not be used (unless you make it longer than it should be but then you need
an additional retaining mechanism which of course negates the whole idea of
using a pip pin in the first place.)
Although I have modified my aircraft quite a lot, this is an area where I am
shy to deviate from the build plan, as it is one of the most critical
structural area's. As all of the other pins are pip pins my bet is that
there must have been a reason why to use a different arrangement on this
specific pin. Surely it can't be because it was cheaper or so, or the
designer was short of one pip pin and decided to work around it...
Regards,
Frans
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Scottish trip - advice? |
Hi! Clive
I can offer a little advice in that Wick is of first class service and
eager to oblige. However my experience of Sumburgh if you should need to
flight plan back was not a good one. They refused to accept a flight plan to
Wick because it was closed on a Sunday, so it was necessary to land with a
suspect problem with the engine! Not unusual with the Jabiru anyway ! The
manager at Wick went ballistic at the Sumburgh people for diverting business
from him!
Also there are extensive Military activities to watch out for and you are to
be recommended to constantly speak to the Regional FIS .
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gtagr
Sent: 07 June 2013 09:27
Subject: Europa-List: Scottish trip - advice?
Fellow Europa flyers,
I'm planning to fly to Lerwick in the Shetlands and back, 6-13 July
departing Wellesbourne. Any thoughts/advice/recommends on fuel
availability/routes/accommodation please from those that have done a similar
trip or who live in the localities?
Clive Sutton, G-TAGR
:)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402187#402187
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | You'll Cry Pip Pins |
Graham
I am very interested by this statement ..so as I understand it the spars are
the main load bearing structure in the airpcraft. if the seat back bush does
not do the this what does? How does the motorglider work?
Will
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM
SINGLETON
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 04:42
Subject: Re: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins
Frans
The pip pin on the port side is there to prevent the starboard spar from
twisting away from the
port spar under high load. The starboard side has no need of retention
because the overlapping
spar provides that function.
Strictly speaking the bush in the seat back bulkhead is of no value, in fact
it increases the load on the spars.
Be better without it as per the motor glider. (but DYOR)
Graham
_____
From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
Sent: Friday, 7 June 2013, 9:07
Subject: Re: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins
On 06/07/2013 09:40 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote:
> Talking about pip pins, does anyone see any merit in using two of the
Port pip pins, another for the Std spar too?
If I recall correctly, there was some technical reason why both pip pins
are different. I forgot the details, but this discussion has been held
before and someone with insight argued why using a pip pin on the
starboard side was not such a good idea. It had something to do with the
different arrangement and thus different torsional loads on the
starboard side because the spars overlay "the other way around". The pin
had to be longer there to allow some movement, and because it needs to
have some play a pip pin can not be used (unless you make it longer than
it should be but then you need an additional retaining mechanism which
of course negates the whole idea of using a pip pin in the first place.)
Although I have modified my aircraft quite a lot, this is an area where
I am shy to deviate from the build plan, as it is one of the most
critical structural area's. As all of the other pins are pip pins my bet
is that there must have been a reason why to use a different arrangement
on this specific pin. Surely it can't be because it was cheaper or so,
or the designer was short of one pip pin and decided to wo= -->
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
_ref="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronbsp;
Thank you for your generous nbsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: You'll Cry Pip Pins |
Hi.
I would guess that its the lift and drag pins on the fuselage side that "
carries" the load.
Tim
On 7 June 2013 14:45, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport@gmail.com> wrote:
> Graham****
>
> ** **
>
> I am very interested by this statement =85.so as I understand it the spar
s
> are the main load bearing structure in the airpcraft=85 if the seat back
bush
> does not do the this what does? How does the motorglider work?****
>
> ** **
>
> Will****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *GRAHAM SINGLETON
> *Sent:* Friday, June 07, 2013 04:42
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins****
>
> ** **
>
> Frans
> The pip pin on the port side is there to prevent the starboard spar from
> twisting away from the
> port spar under high load. The starboard side has no need of retention
> because the overlapping
> spar provides that function.
> Strictly speaking the bush in the seat back bulkhead is of no value, in
> fact it increases the load on the spars.
> Be better without it as per the motor glider. (but DYOR)
> Graham****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Friday, 7 June 2013, 9:07
> *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins****
>
>
>
> On 06/07/2013 09:40 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote:
>
> > Talking about pip pins, does anyone see any merit in using two of the
> Port pip pins, another for the Std spar too?
>
> If I recall correctly, there was some technical reason why both pip pins
> are different. I forgot the details, but this discussion has been held
> before and someone with insight argued why using a pip pin on the
> starboard side was not such a good idea. It had something to do with the
> different arrangement and thus different torsional loads on the
> starboard side because the spars overlay "the other way around". The pin
> had to be longer there to allow some movement, and because it needs to
> have some play a pip pin can not be used (unless you make it longer than
> it should be but then you need an additional retaining mechanism which
> of course negates the whole idea of using a pip pin in the first place.)
>
> Although I have modified my aircraft quite a lot, this is an area where
> I am shy to deviate from the build plan, as it is one of the most
> critical structural area's. As all of the other pins are pip pins my bet
> is that there must have been a reason why to use a different arrangement
> on this specific pin. Surely it can't be because it was cheaper or so,
> or the designer was short of one pip pin and decided to wo= -->
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> _ref="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">
> http://forums.matronbsp; Thank you for your generous nbsp;
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.*
>
>
> *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List*
>
> *< - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -*
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Scottish trip - advice? |
Clive, There is a nice hotel about 3/4 mile from the
airport and a friendly local taxi driver. The admin guy at
Lerwick was also very friendly and helpful. Regards, David
Joyce, G-XSDJ
On Fri, 7 Jun 2013 01:27:03 -0700
"gtagr" <clive.maf@googlemail.com> wrote:
><clive.maf@googlemail.com>
>
>Fellow Europa flyers,
>
> I'm planning to fly to Lerwick in the Shetlands and
>back, 6-13 July departing Wellesbourne. Any
>thoughts/advice/recommends on fuel
>availability/routes/accommodation please from those that
>have done a similar trip or who live in the localities?
>
> Clive Sutton, G-TAGR
> :)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402187#402187
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Un/Subscription,
>Forums!
>Admin.
>
>
>
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Spar pin (was You'll cry..) |
Fred,
Wow, you hit a note there, that lines up with what I've come to
believe. By leaning 'way back from the belly panel opening, I can see the
pintle and believe that an extended hacksaw blade of about 30 inches would
rest on it and begin sawing. The blade is attached to a speed-controlled
scroll saw so we can start slowly and establish an early cut to follow. The
route would be the same, near the back of the panel hole, up behind the
pitch tube and behind the aileron bracket. I mean to guide it with the
boroscope, with a buddy who has taken an interest at the hangar.
Due to a combination of lassitude and ignorance, I can't seem to
achieve the Matronics graphic skills for a photo, but will send it directly.
Cheers, Ferg
Ferg...there is a space of 1.75" (45mm) between the face of my tank and
the aft edge of the 0.5" rod which connects to the aileron friction
plate. I'm suggesting that this gap would allow ample space for a
reciprocating saw blade of proper length to saw your pintle from
below...the trick will be to establish some reference points so that the
opening for the saw can be determined with some accuracy.
My suggestion would be to use a hole saw to cut a hole in the bottom of
the fuselage...say about 2" in diameter...if you make hatch marks for
the center point extending beyond the circumference of the circle, they
would make it easy to align the cut-out circle when you go to patch it
in once the problem's solved and your wings are off.
To locate the center point of your hole, perhaps starting from a
reference line drawn between the two fuel tank access holes would
do...?...if this sounds like a sensible approach to you (and to others
lurking on the list), I can give you a dimension fore and aft from that
line, and a second dimension off the centerline of the fuselage
bottom to locate the center point for the hole.
Let me know if you would like me to determine those dimensions and
establish that point.
My suggestions are based on the idea that a solution lies in finding a
way to cut off your "tapered pintle" which will then allow for you to
drive out the remaining portion which is now stuck in the spar holes.
But perhaps more experienced minds can find a better alternative.
Fred
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Spar pin (was You'll cry..) |
Gentlemen, if I may offer a late suggestion, a wire saw might bring something - here's a link: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Commando-Stainless-Steel-Cutter-Strong/dp/B000O6EL50
These things have the advantage of not requiring a 'reciprocating gap' beyond the
item being cut, and possibly quite a small entry and exit slot in the belly
- though you'd need to thread it over the item to be cut somehow of course.
I'm sure the handle rings could be detached somehow to make this 'threading' operation
easier . . .
Like BCB's other products, worth carrying in the aircraft in a survival kit too.
Clive. :)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402210#402210
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Contact of Europa now at Wombleton .... |
Hi! All you clever administrators ....
Having been out of circulation in the Arctic recently I noticed a message
come through about Europa Spares moving out to Wombleton . Does anyone who
files such useful info have a new contact number I can get through to them
please?
Regards
Bob H
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: You'll Cry Pip Pins |
All the lifting loads are taken by the lift pins on the side of the fuse. Th
e pip pins function only to tie the spars together and keep the wings from f
olding up under G.
The geometry is such that when the main spars are flexing under load, the pi
p pin locations on the spars move downward relative to the lift pins at the s
ide of the fuse (as the lift pins are further out along the radius of the fl
exing spars), so the net result is that the pip pins actually push DOWNWARDS
on the seat back under high positive G's.....totally counter productive. T
he seat back bushes should be clearance vertically IMHO to avoid this situat
ion.
The seat back bushes may however provide some (weak?) support in keeping the
pip pins from twisting out of the spars under their asymmetrical twisting l
oad. Many gliders use fork-spar arrangements to avoid this.
Cheers,
Pete
A239
On Jun 7, 2013, at 9:45 AM, "William Daniell" <wdaniell.longport@gmail.com> w
rote:
> Graham
>
> I am very interested by this statement .so as I understand it the
spars are the main load bearing structure in the airpcraft if the s
eat back bush does not do the this what does? How does the motorglider work
?
>
> Will
>
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-ser
ver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON
> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 04:42
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins
>
> Frans
> The pip pin on the port side is there to prevent the starboard spar from t
wisting away from the
> port spar under high load. The starboard side has no need of retention bec
ause the overlapping
> spar provides that function.
> Strictly speaking the bush in the seat back bulkhead is of no value, in fa
ct it increases the load on the spars.
> Be better without it as per the motor glider. (but DYOR)
> Graham
>
>
> From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, 7 June 2013, 9:07
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins
>
>
> On 06/07/2013 09:40 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote:
>
> > Talking about pip pins, does anyone see any merit in using two of the P
ort pip pins, another for the Std spar too?
>
> If I recall correctly, there was some technical reason why both pip pins
> are different. I forgot the details, but this discussion has been held
> before and someone with insight argued why using a pip pin on the
> starboard side was not such a good idea. It had something to do with the
> different arrangement and thus different torsional loads on the
> starboard side because the spars overlay "the other way around". The pin
> had to be longer there to allow some movement, and because it needs to
> have some play a pip pin can not be used (unless you make it longer than
> it should be but then you need an additional retaining mechanism which
> of course negates the whole idea of using a pip pin in the first place.)
>
> Although I have modified my aircraft quite a lot, this is an area where
> I am shy to deviate from the build plan, as it is one of the most
> critical structural area's. As all of the other pins are pip pins my bet
> is that there must have been a reason why to use a different arrangement
> on this specific pin. Surely it can't be because it was cheaper or so,
> or the designer was short of one pip pin and decided to wo= --> http://
www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> _ref="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matr
onbsp; Thank you for your generous nbsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admi
n.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> < - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> http://forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Scottish trip - advice? |
Thanks for the suggestions. By way of a bit more detail to comment upon, my outline
route at the moment is:
Day 1: Wellesbourne to Fishburn.
Day 2: Fishburn to Cumbernauld (an uncle lives nearby)
Day 3: Cumbernauld to Wick via Aberdeen with the direct water crossing
Day 4: Wick to Lerwick, overflying Kirkwall, Sanday, FairIsle and Sumburgh
Day 5: Stay local to Lerwick, possibly fly around/to Fetlar and around Out Stack
Day 6: Return to Inverness via Wick
Day 7: Inverness to Islay
Day 8: Islay to EGBW via Carlisle
Further thoughts?
Clive.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402218#402218
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Contact of Europa now at Wombleton .... |
Hi
I believe the temporary contact details are as follow 01751 432 356
Or via email:
info@europa-aircraft.co.uk
Hope these work as I got this from the news page on europa website.
Kind regards
Donald
Sent from my iPhone
On 7 Jun 2013, at 16:46, "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev@talktalk.net> wrote:
> Hi! All you clever administrators ....
> Having been out of circulation in the Arctic recently I noticed a message
come through about Europa Spares moving out to Wombleton . Does anyone who
files such useful info have a new contact number I can get through to them p
lease?
> Regards
> Bob H
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Spar pin (was You'll cry..) |
No idea if this is of any value or not, but might a campers thin "rope saw" m
ay be of use to get into a tight space? I guess threading it would be diffic
ult tho.
On Jun 7, 2013, at 10:02 AM, <f.kyle@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Fred,
> Wow, you hit a note there, that lines up with what I=99v
e come to believe. By leaning =98way back from the belly panel opening
, I can see the pintle and believe that an extended hacksaw blade of about 3
0 inches would rest on it and begin sawing. The blade is attached to a speed
-controlled scroll saw so we can start slowly and establish an early cut to f
ollow. The route would be the same, near the back of the panel hole, up behi
nd the pitch tube and behind the aileron bracket. I mean to guide it with th
e boroscope, with a buddy who has taken an interest at the hangar.
> Due to a combination of lassitude and ignorance, I can=99
t seem to achieve the Matronics graphic skills for a photo, but will send it
directly.
> Cheers, Ferg
>
> Ferg...there is a space of 1.75" (45mm) between the face of my tank and
> the aft edge of the 0.5" rod which connects to the aileron friction
> plate. I'm suggesting that this gap would allow ample space for a
> reciprocating saw blade of proper length to saw your pintle from
> below...the trick will be to establish some reference points so that the
> opening for the saw can be determined with some accuracy.
>
> My suggestion would be to use a hole saw to cut a hole in the bottom of
> the fuselage...say about 2" in diameter...if you make hatch marks for
> the center point extending beyond the circumference of the circle, they
> would make it easy to align the cut-out circle when you go to patch it
> in once the problem's solved and your wings are off.
>
> To locate the center point of your hole, perhaps starting from a
> reference line drawn between the two fuel tank access holes would
> do...?...if this sounds like a sensible approach to you (and to others
> lurking on the list), I can give you a dimension fore and aft from that
> line, and a second dimension off the centerline of the fuselage
> bottom to locate the center point for the hole.
>
> Let me know if you would like me to determine those dimensions and
> establish that point.
>
> My suggestions are based on the idea that a solution lies in finding a
> way to cut off your "tapered pintle" which will then allow for you to
> drive out the remaining portion which is now stuck in the spar holes.
>
> But perhaps more experienced minds can find a better alternative.
>
> Fred
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Spar pin (was You'll cry..) |
Oops.....collision, apologies for my duplicate post...
Cheers,
Pete
On Jun 7, 2013, at 11:35 AM, "gtagr" <clive.maf@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> Gentlemen, if I may offer a late suggestion, a wire saw might bring something - here's a link: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Commando-Stainless-Steel-Cutter-Strong/dp/B000O6EL50
>
> These things have the advantage of not requiring a 'reciprocating gap' beyond
the item being cut, and possibly quite a small entry and exit slot in the belly
- though you'd need to thread it over the item to be cut somehow of course.
I'm sure the handle rings could be detached somehow to make this 'threading'
operation easier . . .
>
> Like BCB's other products, worth carrying in the aircraft in a survival kit too.
>
> Clive. :)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402210#402210
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Contact of Europa now at Wombleton .... |
Bob
The Europa Aircraft website says that their temporary contact number is 0175
1 432356. Alternatively you can contact them by email.
Regards
John
On 7 Jun 2013, at 16:46, "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev@talktalk.net> wrote:
> Hi! All you clever administrators ....
> Having been out of circulation in the Arctic recently I noticed a message
come through about Europa Spares moving out to Wombleton . Does anyone who
files such useful info have a new contact number I can get through to them p
lease?
> Regards
> Bob H
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Scottish trip - advice? |
Hi! Clive,
When you have paid for landing and services at Inverness you will think you
own a piece of the airfield !
There's a flying farmer up there ......I think James Austin Just had new
Torque tube clamps from me I'm late for a dinner date so must shoot off
o'wise I would research his e-mail for you he has his own landing strip .
Regards
Bob H
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gtagr
Sent: 07 June 2013 16:57
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Scottish trip - advice?
Thanks for the suggestions. By way of a bit more detail to comment upon, my
outline route at the moment is:
Day 1: Wellesbourne to Fishburn.
Day 2: Fishburn to Cumbernauld (an uncle lives nearby) Day 3: Cumbernauld to
Wick via Aberdeen with the direct water crossing Day 4: Wick to Lerwick,
overflying Kirkwall, Sanday, FairIsle and Sumburgh Day 5: Stay local to
Lerwick, possibly fly around/to Fetlar and around Out Stack Day 6: Return to
Inverness via Wick Day 7: Inverness to Islay Day 8: Islay to EGBW via
Carlisle
Further thoughts?
Clive.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402218#402218
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: You'll Cry Pip Pins |
Pete=0Ayour explanation is correct. Thanks for expanding my criptic remarks
!=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Pete <pe
terz@zutrasoft.com>=0ATo: "europa-list@matronics.com" <europa-list@matronic
s.com> =0ASent: Friday, 7 June 2013, 16:55=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: You'
ll Cry Pip Pins=0A =0A=0A=0AAll the lifting loads are taken by the lift pin
s on the side of the fuse. The pip pins function only to tie the spars toge
ther and keep the wings from folding up under G.=0A=0AThe geometry is such
that when the main spars are flexing under load, the pip pin locations on t
he spars move downward relative to the lift pins at the side of the fuse (a
s the lift pins are further out along the radius of the flexing spars), so
the net result is that the pip pins actually push DOWNWARDS on the seat bac
k under high positive G's.....totally counter productive. =C2-The seat ba
ck bushes should be clearance vertically IMHO to avoid this situation.=0A
=0AThe seat back bushes may however provide some (weak?) support in keeping
the pip pins from twisting out of the spars under their asymmetrical=C2-
twisting load. =C2-Many gliders use fork-spar arrangements to avoid this.
=0A=0ACheers,=0APete=0AA239=0A=0AOn Jun 7, 2013, at 9:45 AM, "William Danie
ll" <wdaniell.longport@gmail.com> wrote:=0A=0A=0AGraham=0A>=C2-=0A>I am v
ery interested by this statement .so as I understand it the spars
are the main load bearing structure in the airpcraft if the seat b
ack bush does not do the this what does?=C2- How does the motorglider wor
k?=0A>=C2-=0A>Will=0A>=C2-=0A>From:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.c
om [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SING
LETON=0A>Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 04:42=0A>To: europa-list@matronics.com
=0A>Subject: Re: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins=0A>=C2-=0A>Frans=0A>The
pip pin on the port side is there to prevent the starboard spar from twist
ing away from the =0A>port spar under high load. The starboard side has no
need of retention because the overlapping =0A>spar provides that function.
=0A>Strictly speaking the bush in the seat back bulkhead is of no value, in
fact it increases the load on the spars.=0A>Be better without it as per th
e motor glider. (but DYOR)=0A>Graham=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>=0A>___________
_____________________=0A>=0A>From:Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>=0A
>To: europa-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Friday, 7 June 2013, 9:07=0A>Subje
ct: Re: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins=0A>=0A>--> Europa-List message pos
ted by: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>=0A>=0A>On 06/07/2013 09:40 A
M, Tony Renshaw wrote:=0A>=0A>>=C2- Talking about pip pins, does anyone s
ee any merit in using two of the Port pip pins, another for the Std spar to
o?=0A>=0A>If I recall correctly, there was some technical reason why both p
ip pins=0A>are different. I forgot the details, but this discussion has bee
n held=0A>before and someone with insight argued why using a pip pin on the
=0A>starboard side was not such a good idea. It had something to do with th
e=0A>different arrangement and thus different torsional loads on the=0A>sta
rboard side because the spars overlay "the other way around". The pin=0A>ha
d to be longer there to allow some movement, and because it needs to=0A>hav
e some play a pip pin can not be used (unless you make it longer than=0A>it
should be but then you need an additional retaining mechanism which=0A>of
course negates the whole idea of using a pip pin in the first place.)=0A>
=0A>Although I have modified my aircraft quite a lot, this is an area where
=0A>I am shy to deviate from the build plan, as it is one of the most=0A>cr
itical structural area's. As all of the other pins are pip pins my bet=0A>i
s that there must have been a reason why to use a different arrangement=0A>
on this specific pin. Surely it can't be because it was cheaper or so,=0A>o
r the designer was short of one pip pin and decided to wo==C2- --> http
://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A>_ref="http://forums.matroni
cs.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronbsp; Thank you for your gene
rous nbsp; =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Adm
in.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>http://www.matronics.com/Nav
igator?Europa-List=0A><=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -=0A>http://forums.matronics.com=0A>h
ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A>=C2-=0A>========
===0Atp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A======
=====0Acs.com=0A=================
===================0Amatronics.com/cont
ribution=0A=====================
==
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | You'll Cry Pip Pins |
Well I damned, I=99d never have thought that. Those thick spars
look like they should be supporting the aircraft but the weedy looking
fuze pins are actually do all the (lifting) work. So the spars=99
main job is to prevent the wings folding forward or back?
So the really important thing is to keep the spars together not tie the
spars into the fuze?
I am woefully ignorant.
Will
From: Pete [mailto:peterz@zutrasoft.com]
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 10:56
Cc: wdaniell.longport@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins
All the lifting loads are taken by the lift pins on the side of the
fuse. The pip pins function only to tie the spars together and keep the
wings from folding up under G.
The geometry is such that when the main spars are flexing under load,
the pip pin locations on the spars move downward relative to the lift
pins at the side of the fuse (as the lift pins are further out along the
radius of the flexing spars), so the net result is that the pip pins
actually push DOWNWARDS on the seat back under high positive
G's.....totally counter productive. The seat back bushes should be
clearance vertically IMHO to avoid this situation.
The seat back bushes may however provide some (weak?) support in keeping
the pip pins from twisting out of the spars under their asymmetrical
twisting load. Many gliders use fork-spar arrangements to avoid this.
Cheers,
Pete
A239
On Jun 7, 2013, at 9:45 AM, "William Daniell"
<wdaniell.longport@gmail.com> wrote:
Graham
I am very interested by this statement .so as I understand it
the spars are the main load bearing structure in the airpcraft
if the seat back bush does not do the this what does? How does the
motorglider work?
Will
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM
SINGLETON
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 04:42
Subject: Re: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins
Frans
The pip pin on the port side is there to prevent the starboard spar from
twisting away from the
port spar under high load. The starboard side has no need of retention
because the overlapping
spar provides that function.
Strictly speaking the bush in the seat back bulkhead is of no value, in
fact it increases the load on the spars.
Be better without it as per the motor glider. (but DYOR)
Graham
_____
From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
Sent: Friday, 7 June 2013, 9:07
Subject: Re: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins
<frans@privatepilots.nl>
On 06/07/2013 09:40 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote:
> Talking about pip pins, does anyone see any merit in using two of the
Port pip pins, another for the Std spar too?
If I recall correctly, there was some technical reason why both pip pins
are different. I forgot the details, but this discussion has been held
before and someone with insight argued why using a pip pin on the
starboard side was not such a good idea. It had something to do with the
different arrangement and thus different torsional loads on the
starboard side because the spars overlay "the other way around". The pin
had to be longer there to allow some movement, and because it needs to
have some play a pip pin can not be used (unless you make it longer than
it should be but then you need an additional retaining mechanism which
of course negates the whole idea of using a pip pin in the first place.)
Although I have modified my aircraft quite a lot, this is an area where
I am shy to deviate from the build plan, as it is one of the most
critical structural area's. As all of the other pins are pip pins my bet
is that there must have been a reason why to use a different arrangement
on this specific pin. Surely it can't be because it was cheaper or so,
or the designer was short of one pip pin and decided to wo= -->
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
_ref="http://forums.matronics.com/"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronbsp; Thank you for your generous
nbsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
< - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Scottish trip - advice? |
so going the same way, shame we cant tie up.
Looks a great scheme. Personally, though I would have thought it unlikely to get
eight consecutive flyable days in a mountainous UK region. My plan is to watch
the weather and pick my day or two days and use the coast if I need to fly
low level.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 55 hours 1 year
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402238#402238
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: You'll Cry Pip Pins |
William=0Ajust a bit more ignorant than me! The wing spars stop the wings f
olding up, (or down), the rear lift pins take the weight of the fuselage=0A
into the wings and stop them folding forwards at high G loading, (that's no
ne intuitive isn't it?) the front pins carry the resat of the fuse weight i
nto the wings.=0AThe spars don't need to be tied the the fuselage.=0AGraham
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: William Daniell <w
daniell.longport@gmail.com>=0ATo: 'Pete' <peterz@zutrasoft.com>; europa-lis
t@matronics.com =0ASent: Friday, 7 June 2013, 18:05=0ASubject: RE: Europa-L
ist: You'll Cry Pip Pins=0A =0A=0A=0AWell I damned, I=99d never have
thought that.=C2- Those thick spars look like they should be supporting t
he aircraft but the weedy looking fuze pins are actually do all the (liftin
g) work. =C2-So the spars=99 main job is to prevent the wings foldi
ng forward or back?=0A=C2-=0ASo the really important thing is to keep the
spars together not tie the spars into the fuze?=0A=C2-=0AI am woefully i
gnorant.=0A=C2-=0AWill=0A=C2-=0AFrom:Pete [mailto:peterz@zutrasoft.com]
=0ASent: Friday, June 07, 2013 10:56=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ACc:
wdaniell.longport@gmail.com=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pin
s=0A=C2-=0AAll the lifting loads are taken by the lift pins on the side o
f the fuse. The pip pins function only to tie the spars together and keep t
he wings from folding up under G.=0A=C2-=0AThe geometry is such that when
the main spars are flexing under load, the pip pin locations on the spars
move downward relative to the lift pins at the side of the fuse (as the lif
t pins are further out along the radius of the flexing spars), so the net r
esult is that the pip pins actually push DOWNWARDS on the seat back under h
igh positive G's.....totally counter productive. =C2-The seat back bushes
should be clearance vertically IMHO to avoid this situation.=0A=C2-=0ATh
e seat back bushes may however provide some (weak?) support in keeping the
pip pins from twisting out of the spars under their asymmetrical=C2-twist
ing load. =C2-Many gliders use fork-spar arrangements to avoid this.=0A
=C2-=0ACheers,=0APete=0AA239=0A=0AOn Jun 7, 2013, at 9:45 AM, "William Da
niell" <wdaniell.longport@gmail.com> wrote:=0AGraham=0A>=C2-=0A>I am very
interested by this statement .so as I understand it the spars are
the main load bearing structure in the airpcraft if the seat back
bush does not do the this what does?=C2- How does the motorglider work?
=0A>=C2-=0A>Will=0A>=C2-=0A>From:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLE
TON=0A>Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 04:42=0A>To: europa-list@matronics.com
=0A>Subject: Re: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins=0A>=C2-=0A>Frans=0A>The
pip pin on the port side is there to prevent the starboard spar from twist
ing away from the =0A>port spar under high load. The starboard side has no
need of retention because the overlapping =0A>spar provides that function.
=0A>Strictly speaking the bush in the seat back bulkhead is of no value, in
fact it increases the load on the spars.=0A>Be better without it as per th
e motor glider. (but DYOR)=0A>Graham=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>=0A>___________
_____________________=0A>=0A>From:Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>=0A
>To: europa-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Friday, 7 June 2013, 9:07=0A>Subje
ct: Re: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins=0A>=0A>--> Europa-List message pos
ted by: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>=0A>=0A>On 06/07/2013 09:40 A
M, Tony Renshaw wrote:=0A>=0A>>=C2- Talking about pip pins, does anyone s
ee any merit in using two of the Port pip pins, another for the Std spar to
o?=0A>=0A>If I recall correctly, there was some technical reason why both p
ip pins=0A>are different. I forgot the details, but this discussion has bee
n held=0A>before and someone with insight argued why using a pip pin on the
=0A>starboard side was not such a good idea. It had something to do with th
e=0A>different arrangement and thus different torsional loads on the=0A>sta
rboard side because the spars overlay "the other way around". The pin=0A>ha
d to be longer there to allow some movement, and because it needs to=0A>hav
e some play a pip pin can not be used (unless you make it longer than=0A>it
should be but then you need an additional retaining mechanism which=0A>of
course negates the whole idea of using a pip pin in the first place.)=0A>
=0A>Although I have modified my aircraft quite a lot, this is an area where
=0A>I am shy to deviate from the build plan, as it is one of the most=0A>cr
itical structural area's. As all of the other pins are pip pins my bet=0A>i
s that there must have been a reason why to use a different arrangement=0A>
on this specific pin. Surely it can't be because it was cheaper or so,=0A>o
r the designer was short of one pip pin and decided to wo==C2- --> http
://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A>_ref="http://forums.matroni
cs.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronbsp; Thank you for your gene
rous nbsp; =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Adm
in.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Europa-List=0A><=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -=0A>http://forums.matronics.com
=0A>http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A>http://forums.matronics.c
=======
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | You'll Cry Pip Pins |
Well i damned again and you=99re right it=99s not in the
least intuitive. It=99s fascinating!
Did I understand that tie bar between the rear lift pins in the XS is
not present in the classic? If so the these folding forward forces are
merely supported by the fuselage sides.
Thanks
Will
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM
SINGLETON
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 15:15
Subject: Re: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins
William
just a bit more ignorant than me! The wing spars stop the wings folding
up, (or down), the rear lift pins take the weight of the fuselage
into the wings and stop them folding forwards at high G loading, (that's
none intuitive isn't it?) the front pins carry the resat of the fuse
weight into the wings.
The spars don't need to be tied the the fuselage.
Graham
_____
From: William Daniell <wdaniell.longport@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, 7 June 2013, 18:05
Subject: RE: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins
Well I damned, I=99d never have thought that. Those thick spars
look like they should be supporting the aircraft but the weedy looking
fuze pins are actually do all the (lifting) work. So the spars=99
main job is to prevent the wings folding forward or back?
So the really important thing is to keep the spars together not tie the
spars into the fuze?
I am woefully ignorant.
Will
From: Pete [mailto:peterz@zutrasoft.com]
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 10:56
Cc: wdaniell.longport@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins
All the lifting loads are taken by the lift pins on the side of the
fuse. The pip pins function only to tie the spars together and keep the
wings from folding up under G.
The geometry is such that when the main spars are flexing under load,
the pip pin locations on the spars move downward relative to the lift
pins at the side of the fuse (as the lift pins are further out along the
radius of the flexing spars), so the net result is that the pip pins
actually push DOWNWARDS on the seat back under high positive
G's.....totally counter productive. The seat back bushes should be
clearance vertically IMHO to avoid this situation.
The seat back bushes may however provide some (weak?) support in keeping
the pip pins from twisting out of the spars under their asymmetrical
twisting load. Many gliders use fork-spar arrangements to avoid this.
Cheers,
Pete
A239
On Jun 7, 2013, at 9:45 AM, "William Daniell"
<wdaniell.longport@gmail.com> wrote:
Graham
I am very interested by this statement .so as I understand it
the spars are the main load bearing structure in the airpcraft
if the seat back bush does not do the this what does? How does the
motorglider work?
Will
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM
SINGLETON
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 04:42
Subject: Re: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins
Frans
The pip pin on the port side is there to prevent the starboard spar from
twisting away from the
port spar under high load. The starboard side has no need of retention
because the overlapping
spar provides that function.
Strictly speaking the bush in the seat back bulkhead is of no value, in
fact it increases the load on the spars.
Be better without it as per the motor glider. (but DYOR)
Graham
_____
From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
Sent: Friday, 7 June 2013, 9:07
Subject: Re: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins
<frans@privatepilots.nl>
On 06/07/2013 09:40 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote:
> Talking about pip pins, does anyone see any merit in using two of the
Port pip pins, another for the Std spar too?
If I recall correctly, there was some technical reason why both pip pins
are different. I forgot the details, but this discussion has been held
before and someone with insight argued why using a pip pin on the
starboard side was not such a good idea. It had something to do with the
different arrangement and thus different torsional loads on the
starboard side because the spars overlay "the other way around". The pin
had to be longer there to allow some movement, and because it needs to
have some play a pip pin can not be used (unless you make it longer than
it should be but then you need an additional retaining mechanism which
of course negates the whole idea of using a pip pin in the first place.)
Although I have modified my aircraft quite a lot, this is an area where
I am shy to deviate from the build plan, as it is one of the most
critical structural area's. As all of the other pins are pip pins my bet
is that there must have been a reason why to use a different arrangement
on this specific pin. Surely it can't be because it was cheaper or so,
or the designer was short of one pip pin and decided to wo= -->
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
_ref="http://forums.matronics.com/"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronbsp <http://forums.matronbsp/> ;
Thank you for your generous nbsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
< - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.ma <http://www.ma%22nofollow> "nofollow" target="_blank"
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://f=========
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: You'll Cry Pip Pins |
Yes,=0AGraham=0Ano comment!=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________
=0A From: William Daniell <wdaniell.longport@gmail.com>=0ATo: europa-list@m
atronics.com =0ASent: Friday, 7 June 2013, 21:48=0ASubject: RE: Europa-List
: You'll Cry Pip Pins=0A =0A=0A=0AWell i damned again and you=99re ri
ght it=99s not in the least intuitive. It=99s fascinating!=0A
=C2-=0ADid I understand that tie bar between the rear lift pins in the XS
is not present in the classic?=C2- If so the these folding forward force
s are merely supported by the fuselage sides.=0A=C2-=0AThanks=0A=C2-=0A
Will=0A=C2-=0AFrom:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-e
uropa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON=0ASent: Frid
ay, June 07, 2013 15:15=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Euro
pa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins=0A=C2-=0AWilliam=0Ajust a bit more ignorant
than me! The wing spars stop the wings folding up, (or down), the rear lift
pins take the weight of the fuselage=0Ainto the wings and stop them foldin
g forwards at high G loading, (that's none intuitive isn't it?) the front p
ins carry the resat of the fuse weight into the wings.=0AThe spars don't ne
ed to be tied the the fuselage.=0AGraham=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=0A___________
_____________________=0A=0AFrom:William Daniell <wdaniell.longport@gmail.co
m>=0ATo: 'Pete' <peterz@zutrasoft.com>; europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent:
Friday, 7 June 2013, 18:05=0ASubject: RE: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins
=0A=C2-=0AWell I damned, I=99d never have thought that.=C2- Those
thick spars look like they should be supporting the aircraft but the weedy
looking fuze pins are actually do all the (lifting) work. =C2-So the spa
rs=99 main job is to prevent the wings folding forward or back?=0A=C2
-=0ASo the really important thing is to keep the spars together not tie t
he spars into the fuze?=0A=C2-=0AI am woefully ignorant.=0A=C2-=0AWill
=0A=C2-=0AFrom:Pete [mailto:peterz@zutrasoft.com] =0ASent: Friday, June 0
7, 2013 10:56=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ACc: wdaniell.longport@gmail
.com=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: You'll Cry Pip Pins=0A=C2-=0AAll the lif
ting loads are taken by the lift pins on the side of the fuse. The pip pins
function only to tie the spars together and keep the wings from folding up
under G.=0A=C2-=0AThe geometry is such that when the main spars are flex
ing under load, the pip pin locations on the spars move downward relative t
o the lift pins at the side of the fuse (as the lift pins are further out a
long the radius of the flexing spars), so the net result is that the pip pi
ns actually push DOWNWARDS on the seat back under high positive G's.....tot
ally counter productive. =C2-The seat back bushes should be clearance ver
tically IMHO to avoid this situation.=0A=C2-=0AThe seat back bushes may h
owever provide some (weak?) support in keeping the pip pins from twisting o
ut of the spars under their asymmetrical=C2-twisting load. =C2-Many gli
ders use fork-spar arrangements to avoid this.=0A=C2-=0ACheers,=0APete=0A
A239=0A=0AOn Jun 7, 2013, at 9:45 AM, "William Daniell" <wdaniell.longport@
gmail.com> wrote:=0AGraham=0A>=C2-=0A>I am very interested by this statem
ent .so as I understand it the spars are the main load bearing str
ucture in the airpcraft if the seat back bush does not do the this
what does?=C2- How does the motorglider work?=0A>=C2-=0A>Will=0A>=C2
-=0A>From:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON=0A>Sent: Friday, June
07, 2013 04:42=0A>To: europa-list@matronics.com=0A>Subject: Re: Europa-Lis
t: You'll Cry Pip Pins=0A>=C2-=0A>Frans=0A>The pip pin on the port side i
s there to prevent the starboard spar from twisting away from the =0A>port
spar under high load. The starboard side has no need of retention because t
he overlapping =0A>spar provides that function. =0A>Strictly speaking the b
ush in the seat back bulkhead is of no value, in fact it increases the load
on the spars.=0A>Be better without it as per the motor glider. (but DYOR)
=0A>Graham=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>=0A>________________________________=0A>
=0A>From:Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>=0A>To: europa-list@matronic
s.com =0A>Sent: Friday, 7 June 2013, 9:07=0A>Subject: Re: Europa-List: You'
ans@privatepilots.nl>=0A>=0A>On 06/07/2013 09:40 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote:=0A
>=0A>>=C2- Talking about pip pins, does anyone see any merit in using two
of the Port pip pins, another for the Std spar too?=0A>=0A>If I recall cor
rectly, there was some technical reason why both pip pins=0A>are different.
I forgot the details, but this discussion has been held=0A>before and some
one with insight argued why using a pip pin on the=0A>starboard side was no
t such a good idea. It had something to do with the=0A>different arrangemen
t and thus different torsional loads on the=0A>starboard side because the s
pars overlay "the other way around". The pin=0A>had to be longer there to a
llow some movement, and because it needs to=0A>have some play a pip pin can
not be used (unless you make it longer than=0A>it should be but then you n
eed an additional retaining mechanism which=0A>of course negates the whole
idea of using a pip pin in the first place.)=0A>=0A>Although I have modifie
d my aircraft quite a lot, this is an area where=0A>I am shy to deviate fro
m the build plan, as it is one of the most=0A>critical structural area's. A
s all of the other pins are pip pins my bet=0A>is that there must have been
a reason why to use a different arrangement=0A>on this specific pin. Surel
y it can't be because it was cheaper or so,=0A>or the designer was short of
one pip pin and decided to wo==C2- --> http://www.matronics.com/Naviga
tor?Europa-List=0A>_ref="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">
http://forums.matronbsp; Thank you for your generous nbsp; =C2- =C2-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A><
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-- MATRONI
CS WEB FORUMS -=0A>http://forums.matronics.com=0A>http://www.matronics.com/
contribution=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A>http://forums.matronics.com=0A>http://www.ma
tronics.com/contribution=0A>=C2-=0Ahttp://www.ma"nofollow" target="_bla
nk" href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://f========
===0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navig
ator?Europa-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/c
====================
Message 27
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Contact of Europa now at Wombleton .... |
Better than a number lads, Karen at Europa says I, (we) can fly in now to pi
ck up our spares and have a look round with a cup of tea thrown in gratis!!
Regards
Trev G-LINN
Sent from my iPad
On 7 Jun 2013, at 16:46, "Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev@talktalk.net> wrote:
> Hi! All you clever administrators ....
> Having been out of circulation in the Arctic recently I noticed a message
come through about Europa Spares moving out to Wombleton . Does anyone who
files such useful info have a new contact number I can get through to them p
lease?
> Regards
> Bob H
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 28
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Contact of Europa now at Wombleton .... |
Many thanks to all who provided the "heads up " on this issue.
Regards
Bob Harrison
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Harrison
Sent: 07 June 2013 16:47
Subject: Europa-List: Contact of Europa now at Wombleton ....
Hi! All you clever administrators ....
Having been out of circulation in the Arctic recently I noticed a message
come through about Europa Spares moving out to Wombleton . Does anyone who
files such useful info have a new contact number I can get through to them
please?
Regards
Bob H
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|