Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:32 AM - Seat backs (Tony Renshaw)
2. 01:56 AM - europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit (Dave Disney)
3. 02:12 AM - Re: Seat backs (Alan Burrill)
4. 02:13 AM - europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
5. 02:18 AM - Re: Seat backs (Brian Davies)
6. 04:05 AM - Re: Seat backs (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
7. 05:02 AM - europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit (h&jeuropa)
8. 07:34 AM - Re: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit (Fred Klein)
9. 07:37 AM - Re: Seat backs (flyingphil2)
10. 11:26 AM - The Weather (Alan Carter)
11. 11:50 AM - Re: Fuel return line one-way-valve (Raimo Toivio)
12. 12:14 PM - Re: Seat backs (graeme bird)
13. 12:38 PM - Re: Texel weather ,,,...... (Raimo Toivio)
14. 05:24 PM - =?windows-1252?Q?Instrument_Panel_Sub_Panel_Setup=85=2E=2ERunner?= =?windows-1252?Q?s=3F_? (Tony Renshaw)
15. 07:41 PM - Re: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit (Jeremy Fisher)
16. 09:14 PM - Re: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit (Fred Klein)
Message 1
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Gidday,
Considering seating solutions I was wondering if anyone has an opinion on whether
there might be an argument to take a plaster moulding of my back, then laying
it up with cloth, then applying a suitable depth of foam to that plug, and
then re-laying more cloth on-top of that. This way you get an insert that has
your upholstery attached that you can drop in, and the plan is to then pack it
out appropriately. Would that be a worthy strategy, or am I thinking too much?
It might be a bit limiting for wriggle room I suppose, but as I see it, there
isn't much wiggle room anyway. I'm interested in the bean bag solution, but
I have never sat in one that was initially comfortable, and I don't know how you
could contain the beads such that they didn't migrate. So, any opinions on
my attempts to "redesign the wheel" ? I would love to find a product, a spray
foam, that would go off quickly and then be shapeable. It would be great to be
able to use a spray foam as a template-able material. If there is anything out
there that can do that, I'd love to know.
Regards
Tony Renshaw
Sydney Aussie
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit |
I need an additional cushion to raise my height in the aircraft so I have been
following this thread with interest.
There is a company in the UK that appears to supply just the sort of cushions that
I am looking for.
http://www.qbitus.co.uk/
If you click on the green tab on the right hand side for the 'Dynamic Range', there
is an interesting write up that includes reference to the thermo-reactive
problems of some foam products.
I haven't contacted the company yet to discuss my needs, but there may be some
interesting information on their site for others with regards to different types
of foam products and their attributes.
Dave
G-RJWX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408653#408653
Message 3
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As far as the shape of the setback to clear the spar pins mine has a clear curved
hardback which clears the pins and provides a firm base for the foam for the
back. It also offer s a little Lumbar support.
The seat cushion insert is the 'absorbing foam material which is a little hard
after a long flight and I'm looking to try and provide more thigh support to take
the pressure off and spread the load a little better.
No idea of the manufacture but I did let the Yorkshire lass at the LAA Rally Tent
have a look to see if it helped her seat design.
As far as shaping seats to persons profile I remember once watching a program on
formula one cars and they had the driver sit in a mould while they pumped in
a foam to get the exact shape required - sorry don't have any details other than
that.
Alan
G-OBJT
On 16 Sep 2013, at 09:31, Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Gidday,
> Considering seating solutions I was wondering if anyone has an opinion on whether
there might be an argument to take a plaster moulding of my back, then laying
it up with cloth, then applying a suitable depth of foam to that plug, and
then re-laying more cloth on-top of that. This way you get an insert that has
your upholstery attached that you can drop in, and the plan is to then pack
it out appropriately. Would that be a worthy strategy, or am I thinking too much?
It might be a bit limiting for wriggle room I suppose, but as I see it, there
isn't much wiggle room anyway. I'm interested in the bean bag solution, but
I have never sat in one that was initially comfortable, and I don't know how
you could contain the beads such that they didn't migrate. So, any opinions on
my attempts to "redesign the wheel" ? I would love to find a product, a spray
foam, that would go off quickly and then be shapeable. It would be great to
be able to use a spray foam as a template-able materia!
> l. If there is anything out there that can do that, I'd love to know.
> Regards
> Tony Renshaw
> Sydney Aussie
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit |
Dave=0Aa deep soft cushion WILL cause injury in a moderately heavy landing.
=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Dave Disney <da
vedisney@yahoo.co.uk>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, 16 S
eptember 2013, 9:56=0ASubject: Europa-List: europa-List: Re: Factory uphols
ney@yahoo.co.uk>=0A=0AI need an additional cushion to raise my height in th
e aircraft so I have been following this thread with interest.=0A=0AThere i
s a company in the UK that appears to supply just the sort of cushions that
I am looking for. =0A=0Ahttp://www.qbitus.co.uk/=0A=0AIf you click on the
green tab on the right hand side for the 'Dynamic Range', there is an inter
esting write up that includes reference to the thermo-reactive problems of
some foam products.=0A=0AI haven't contacted the company yet to discuss my
needs, but there may be some interesting information on their site for othe
rs with regards to different types of foam products and their attributes.
=0A=0ADave=0AG-RJWX=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://
forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408653#408653=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
===============
Message 5
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Tony
Take a look at www. Demon-tweaks.co.uk and look up expanding foam seat kit. I have used this in racing car and makes an exact foam shape of your body. I am not sure of the practicality of in a Europa because it be could uncomfortable for any one else who sat in the seat.
Regards
Brian Davies
Sent from my iPad
On 16 Sep 2013, at 09:31, Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Gidday,
> Considering seating solutions I was wondering if anyone has an opinion on whether
there might be an argument to take a plaster moulding of my back, then laying
it up with cloth, then applying a suitable depth of foam to that plug, and
then re-laying more cloth on-top of that. This way you get an insert that has
your upholstery attached that you can drop in, and the plan is to then pack
it out appropriately. Would that be a worthy strategy, or am I thinking too much?
It might be a bit limiting for wriggle room I suppose, but as I see it, there
isn't much wiggle room anyway. I'm interested in the bean bag solution, but
I have never sat in one that was initially comfortable, and I don't know how
you could contain the beads such that they didn't migrate. So, any opinions on
my attempts to "redesign the wheel" ? I would love to find a product, a spray
foam, that would go off quickly and then be shapeable. It would be great to
be able to use a spray foam as a template-able materia!
> l. If there is anything out there that can do that, I'd love to know.
> Regards
> Tony Renshaw
> Sydney Aussie
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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Tony=0Ayour idea is a good starting point. The trick with bean bags is that
they have to be only half full so that the beans can wriggle too. They don
't migrate through normal upholstery fabric.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______
_________________________=0A From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>
=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, 16 September 2013, 9:31
=0ASubject: Europa-List: Seat backs=0A =0A=0A--> Europa-List message posted
by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>=0A=0AGidday,=0AConsidering sea
ting solutions I was wondering if anyone has an opinion on whether there mi
ght be an argument to take a plaster moulding of my back, then laying it up
with cloth, then applying a suitable depth of foam to that plug, and then
re-laying more cloth on-top of that. This way you get an insert that has yo
ur upholstery attached that you can drop in, and the plan is to then pack i
t out appropriately. Would that be a worthy strategy, or am I thinking too
much? It might be a bit limiting for wriggle room I suppose, but as I see i
t, there isn't much wiggle room anyway. I'm interested in the bean bag solu
tion, but I have never sat in one that was initially comfortable, and I don
't know how you could contain the beads such that they didn't migrate. So,
any opinions on my attempts to "redesign the wheel" ? I would love to find
a product, a spray foam, that would go off quickly and then be shapeable. I
t would be great to be able to use a spray foam as a
template-able materia!=0Al. If there is anything out there that can do tha
t, I'd love to know. =0ARegards=0ATony Renshaw=0ASydney Aussie=0A=0A=0A=0A_
-========================
==============
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit |
We chose Oregon Aero for our seat cushions. They have years of experience engineering
seats that are comfortable and provide safety in the event of hard landing
/ crash. They now have a pattern for the Europa XS, with cut outs for the
spar pins. They sent us the cushions to try before upholstering. They can
do upholstery or you can have a local person do it. They also sold us lightweight,
aircraft quality (fire resistant) carpet which we cut & finished for our
interior.
We actually had 3 sets made - one for each seat plus a "booster" that can be used
in pilot or co-pilot side (since Heather couldn't reach pedals / see out to
land with normal seats). It works well for taking Young Eagles also.
Seats are very comfortable. When it is cold out, they initially feel hard, but
within minutes you don't even notice the seat. Most of our flights are 2-3 hours,
and it can be very cold in Michigan & at altitude. We've flown from Michigan
to Colorado and Arizona (6-7 hours in a day). Absolutely no back pain or
discomfort in flight and after arriving.
People complain that they are expensive, but between comfort & knowing that they
will protect in the event of hard landing, we think they are the best way to
go for seats.
Jim & Heather Butcher
N241BW
485 hrs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408660#408660
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| Subject: | Re: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit |
An excellent description and documentation of a Europa seat upholstery method can
be found at:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/justin@systemwise.co.uk.05.07.2007/
Message 9
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When I used to work in F1, we would have people come round to help with the seat
fitting for the new drivers.
The procedure was to get the driver to sit in their preferred position whilst sitting
on a bag full of polystyrene beads and resin (it may have been more glamorous
than that - just to get the price up to F1 standards). Once they had sat
there for a while and it had cured, the bag could then be taken away and used
as a mould to make a padded seat from.
So, all of the ideas so far and the link to demon tweaks are similar to this and
would achieve the same end result.
Regards,
Phil
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408670#408670
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Hi All.
The Met Office have given themselves 1000000 bonus for predicting the weather this
year,
Is, ant this what they are employed to do, or am I missing something.
Crazy country.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408687#408687
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel return line one-way-valve |
Hi Ron,
I try to elaborate this a bit:
Think what happen if you will get a leak to this line. Return fuel is
then coming out from engine as well as direct from the tank by gravity.
Remember =93 if installed as per manual =93 a fuel return
line is connected to the reserve side bottom of the tank.
Even worse scenario: during succesful forced landing your ac will suffer
minor damages to the fire wall etc. Before landing you have closed as
per POH your fuel valve but you have no valve in the fuel return line.
If it is broken your tank will go empty under you. Maybe you are not
able to escape in time. How is then sitting as jammed in the ac,
listening fuel splitting out and waiting the possible flames?
Of course it is possible to have also a manual fuel valve in the return
line also. Intead of that one-way-valve is automatic and works well if
located as close as possible from the tank.
Before installing my one-way-valve I closed the entire fuel return line
and I did not noticed any difference (there is a risk for a vapour lock
/fire upp engine difficulties when semi warm and reserve side of the
tank is then also not refreshed ie. always full).
If I were building now, I would like to instal the fuel return line
joint to the top of the tank instead of the bottom of it. That=C2=B4s
bad only if you are inverted...and damaging the ac same time.
How was my elaboration?
Cheers, Raimo Toivio
Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417
Updated flight hours /landings: 376 /604
(no damaged props so far)
37500 Lempaala
FINLAND
p +358-3-3753 777
f +358-3-3753 100
www.rwm.fi
From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 5:21 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filters
Hi Raimo
You mentioned:
Notice:
- Adding one-way-valve to the fuel return line
(idea by Frans Veldman) is a great must (and
mandatory at least for me).
Can you elaborate a little on why you might want to put a one-way-valve
on the fuel return line? Is this for a 914 fuel system?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
Message 12
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Maybe I am a Philistine; I just used 2" memory foam (blue) with a 6mm ply base
and back to match the headrest angle. It adapts to your shape, its absorbs energy,
I cant feel the spar pins, its square shape was easy to upholster. I used
3" for the seat, 2 blue and one pink. Just a rectangle. I cant see how it could
be more comfortable.
Dont forget you will be taking them in and out a lot and putting your muddy feet
on them and kneeling on them too.
I was very impressed with the upholstery for Europas at the LAA Rally though for
400 quid though
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 75 hours 18 months
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408692#408692
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| Subject: | Re: Texel weather ,,,...... |
Yes it definetely was - below windmills - and both
directions from and to the East. We elected to
climb to the clouds and relax in IMC.
Marke and Raimo
OH-XRT
-----Alkuper=E4inen viesti-----
From: David Joyce
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Texel weather ,,,......
<davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
Bob, Thanks. Could you be really helpful and post
a local
METAR at say 8.30 local tomorrow for the sake of
those
contemplating Sat arrival. The forecasts look
generally
good apart from RASP predictions which seem to
suggest a
cloudbase something below windmill height!
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
On Fri, 6 Sep 2013 08:53:35 +0100
"Bob Harrison" <ptag.dev@talktalk.net> wrote:
> Hi! Just to be helpful........I can confirm that
> the weather here is hot and
> humid with wall to wall blue sky.........what is
> it
>
> Cavok......
>
> Regards
>
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
browse
Un/Subscription,
FAQ,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Forums!
List Admin.
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| Subject: | =?windows-1252?Q?Instrument_Panel_Sub_Panel_Setup=85=2E=2ERunner?= |
=?windows-1252?Q?s=3F_?
Gidday,
I am interested in advice on what might be considered the best setup for the instrument
panel, in terms of ease of maintenance, removal etc. I am wondering if
the main sub panel could be removable forward on runners, like drawer sliders?
Big aircraft have these, as was my misfortune one day to realise when I grabbed
the two foot rests D rings either side of the panel and pulled to give my
shoulders a stretch, but little did I know that during maintenance the locking
screws had not been actuated, and the whole panel came forward up to the back
of the control column! I looked at the other guy with shock, and just gently
eased it back in place, hoping nothing had, or would disconnect in the process.
Yes, we were airborne! It left an indelible memory, but has inspired me as
to whether such a setup could work on the Europa. This idea is borne out of imagining
how unwieldy it might be with all the weight aft of the sub panel, to
remove it forward easily, especially with plumbing attached. Runners would make
it a lot easier.
If there is other options for these sub panels I'd appreciate knowing, or whether
my anxieties are unfounded. Thanks in anticipation.
Regards
Tony Renshaw
Sydney Aussie
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| Subject: | Re: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit |
Let me emphasize the importance of using a Temperfoam or Comforfoam seat
bottom cushion. Two years ago I flew my Lancair 360 when the engine
quit after only 8 hours from new, because the fuel transfer system
failed. I had to deadstick into a small field. A Lancair glides like a
brick so I had a long flare at the bottom. According to the FAA, I
clipped a tall tree, which caused me to land in a horizontal attitude,
but with a very high descent rate, and little forward speed. =46rom my
experience with ejection seats, I estimate that I pulled between 25 and
30 Gs. It was enough to snap the main spar, break the crankshaft and
break off the rear fuselage. I survived with relatively minor injuries,
broken ribs, two broken teeth and a very badly sprained neck. I believe
that this was due to two things. I had used Temperfoam with all 3
grades of hardness for the seat cushions, and I had repositioned the
upper seatbelt attachment points to the upper fuselage just behind the
canopy. The original seatbelt point is below the pilot's shoulder level
and well back, so that there is always some slack left, and it will
increase the likelihood of spinal injury.
If I had used ordinary upholstery foam, I think that I would have broken
my spine. Ordinary foam would have rebounded and increased the stress on
my back. As it was, I lost one full inch in height as the discs all
compressed. The original seat belt location would also have increased
the spinal loading. As it was the belt held rock solid, and I just had
bad bruising. Now that I am building a Europa, I see the same issues,
especially the upper seat belt mounting position. As you can guess, I
am using Temperfoam and have repositioned the upper belt mountings in a
similar way to that done by Frans Veldmann. I don't care if the seat
feels hard (it didn't), I want the protection.
As a slightly amusing side effect, I used to have a bad back, and
occasionally a slipped disc. Since the crash, my bad back is almost
cured, with no slipped discs; but I don't recommend it as a treatment!
Jerry Fisher
On Sep 14, 2013, at 2:21 PM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:
Fred Klein is right. Soft foam and a hard landing (not damaging the
airplane)
will probably cause serious back injury. Think about it, the foam will
still be compressing
and you are still going down ,when the airplane has started its bounce
so you hit the seat base twice as hard.
Best seat cushion is a styoroam bean bag in this situation.
Graham
From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
Sent: Saturday, 14 September 2013, 14:56
Subject: Europa-List: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit
On Sep 13, 2013, at 1:09 AM, Kelvin Weston wrote:
> I ordered enough foam for two seats to allow a bit of experimenting
and this only cost 20 uk pounds. Well worth the expense and time
getting it right if I'm going to spend several hundreds on the final
upholstered article.
Kelvin...I would urge that you consider using the very special (and
quite spendy) temperfoam for the seat bottoms rather than upholstery
foam...your tush will be very appreciative. My seat bottoms are 1" of
the green "crash foam" (very dense), 1" of blue (less dense), plus
triangular wedges of upholstery foam...it could save you some trauma
from a hard landing...sorry but I cannot source this material for you.
Good luck,
Fred
http://www.matronics.com/Naviet="_blank"
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics->
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit |
On Sep 16, 2013, at 7:41 PM, Jeremy Fisher wrote:
> I had used Temperfoam with all 3 grades of hardness for the seat
cushions, and I had repositioned the upper seatbelt attachment points to
the upper fuselage just behind the canopy. The original seatbelt point
is below the pilot's shoulder level and well back, so that there is
always some slack left, and it will increase the likelihood of spinal
injury.
Jeremy...as you're no doubt aware, the standard shoulder belt on the
Europa is at or below shoulder height and is apt to contribute to spinal
compression in a hard landing. I've raised mine w/ a hinged riser as
shown in the attached photos...I've stress-tested them to 15 Gs w/ no
collapse or deformation...the hinge allows for the normal "sitting on
the raised seat back" method for entering and exiting a XS mono...no
change in shoulder belt attach point.
The last photo shows my layers of blue and green Temperfoam, augmented
w/ regular upholstery foam wedges...note the ends of the lumbar support
visable at the seat back...backs are propped in place w/ blocks of pink
styrofoam.
Fred
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