Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:35 AM - =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_R?= =?UTF-8?Q?e=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Europa_Crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck=2FGermany? (houlihan)
2. 12:41 AM - Re: Europa Crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck?=/Germany (g-fizy)
3. 01:30 AM - Re: Re: Europa Crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck/Ger?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?many? (Pete Lawless)
4. 03:21 AM - Re: Re: Europa Crash in =?utf-8?Q?L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? (David Joyce)
5. 03:25 AM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-Lis?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?t=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Europa_Cras?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?h_in_L=FCbeck/Germany? (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
6. 03:43 AM - Re: Re: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in =?iso-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck/Germany? (David Joyce)
7. 04:10 AM - =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_R?= =?UTF-8?Q?e=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Europa_Cra?= =?UTF-8?Q?sh_in_L=C3=BCbeck=2FGermany? (houlihan)
8. 04:21 AM - Facebook/Twitter (Klaus Dietrich)
9. 04:27 AM - =?utf-8?Q?Re:__Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:?= =?utf-8?Q?__Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Europ?= =?utf-8?Q?a_Crash_in__L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? (Pete)
10. 06:02 AM - Re: Europa Crash in =?UTF-8?B?TMO8YmVjay9HZXJtYW55IA==?= =?UTF-8?B?LSBMaWZ0IFJlc2VydmUgSW5kaWNhdG9y? (Nigel Graham)
11. 06:35 AM - Smart Ass (DAVID JOYCE)
12. 07:01 AM - Re: Smart Ass (Karl Heindl)
13. 07:08 AM - =?utf-8?Q?Re:__Europa_Crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany_-?= =?utf-8?Q?_Lift_Reserve_Indicator? (Pete)
14. 07:17 AM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-Lis?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?t=3A_Re=3A__Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Euro?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?pa-List=3A_Europa_Crash_in__L=FCbeck/Germany? (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
15. 07:19 AM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-Lis?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?t=3A_Re=3A__Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Euro?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?pa-List=3A_Europa_Crash_in__L=FCbeck/Germany? (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
16. 07:42 AM - Re: Smart Ass (David Joyce)
17. 07:56 AM - Re: Smart Ass (DAVID JOYCE)
18. 08:02 AM - Re: Smart Ass (Ivor Phillips)
19. 08:10 AM - Re: Re: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in =?iso-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck/Germany? (David Joyce)
20. 08:27 AM - Re: Smart Ass (Fred Klein)
21. 08:49 AM - Re: Europa Crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck?=/Germany (graeme bird)
22. 09:25 AM - Re: Smart Ass (Jerry Rehn)
23. 09:35 AM - =?utf-8?Q?Re:__Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:?= =?utf-8?Q?_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Eu?= =?utf-8?Q?ropa-List:_Europa_Crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? (Alex Kaarsberg)
24. 10:06 AM - =?utf-8?Q?Re:__Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:?= =?utf-8?Q?_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Eu?= =?utf-8?Q?ropa-List:_Europa_Crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? (Alex Kaarsberg)
25. 10:07 AM - Re: Re: Europa Crash in =?utf-8?Q?L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? (David Joyce)
26. 10:59 AM - Re: Europa crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=C3=BCbeck?=/Germany (graeme bird)
27. 03:07 PM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa_crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Ger?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?many? (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
28. 09:29 PM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Europa?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?-List:_Re:?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Europa-Li?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?st:_Re:_Eu?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ropa_crash?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_in_L=C3=BCbec?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?k/Germany? (Bud Yerly)
29. 11:02 PM - Re: Eu ropa crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=C3=BCbec? (JonSmith)
Message 1
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| Subject: | =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_R?= |
=?UTF-8?Q?e=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Europa_Crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck=2FGermany?
Hi Graham.
We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true
then on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the
undercarriage before the ASI has moved from zero.
I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the
pressure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will
be indicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal
mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even
quicker using electronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head.
True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just want to be warned
if through lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to decay
, these lack of attention or distraction events usually build up slowly
without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over one or two
seconds.
best regards
Tim
On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>wrot
e:
> Tim
> don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraft ha
s
> accelerated, or worse slowed down and that takes many seconds.
> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use.
> Graham
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31
> *Subject:* Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in
> L=C3=BCbeck/Germany
>
> Hi Graham.
>
> I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I
> appreciate what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ?
> I bet the real figure is much less than a second.
> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the spee
d
> of light at times.
>
> Tim
>
>
> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>wr
ote:
>
> Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 2
0
> seconds too late.
> Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice
> Europa.
> Graham
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36
> *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany
>
> davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>
>
> I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the
> equivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>
>
> *
>
> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List <http://w
ww.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List>
> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution>
>
> *
>
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/con==============
== <http://www.matronics.com/con=============
===>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
===========
tronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List>
===========
===========
om/contribution>
===========
>
> *
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck?=/Germany |
hi david ,do you have the web address in the smartass device
regards jim
--------
owner g-fizy
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423142#423142
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck/Ger?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?many? |
Jim
http://www.smartavionics.com/
But note from the website
"September 2013 - The SmartASS and the Airspeed Monitor have now been
discontinued (their replacement is currently being developed and, if all
goes to plan, it will be available in Q1 2014)."
Pete
On 11/05/14 08:40, g-fizy wrote:
>
> hi david ,do you have the web address in the smartass device
>
> regards jim
>
> --------
> owner g-fizy
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423142#423142
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Crash in =?utf-8?Q?L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? |
Jim, Google Smart Avionics. Not sure whether the Mark 3
SmartASS is up on the site yet but if not it will be
shortly. The Mark 2 went out of production late last year.
The Mk 3 is in being , has been flight tested, will be on
sale shortly and slightly cheaper than the mark 2, I am
told.
On Sun, 11 May 2014 00:40:59 -0700
"g-fizy" <jim.davis1@me.com> wrote:
><jim.davis1@me.com>
>
> hi david ,do you have the web address in the smartass
>device
>
> regards jim
>
> --------
> owner g-fizy
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423142#423142
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Un/Subscription,
>Forums!
>Admin.
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-Lis?= |
=?iso-8859-1?Q?t=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Europa_Cras?=
=?iso-8859-1?Q?h_in_L=FCbeck/Germany?
Tim=0Amaybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes
in airspeed. =0AWhen AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instantly b
ut will take several seconds.=0AThe force causing change of airspeed is inc
rease or decrease in drag, usually quite a small force.=0ADuring take off a
cceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will record speed of course,
as soon =0Aas the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best cli
mb.=0AStall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I
'm thinking aloud here)=0AIn fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are al
so at fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but=0Achange as all up we
ight changes.=0AAoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. Tha
t's why fast jets use it.=0AA pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASI
s are!=0Abest regards=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A______________________________
__=0A From: houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>=0ATo: europa-list@matronic
s.com =0ASent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Europa
-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L
=FCbeck/Germany=0A =0A=0A=0AHi Graham.=0A=0AWe may be talking apples agains
t pears here BUT if what you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100'
thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the ASI has moved from
zero.=0A=0AI agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass b
ut the pressure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass
will be indicated within a small fraction of a second even using our norma
l mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even q
uicker using electronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head.=0A=0ATrue
an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just want to be warned if th
rough lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to decay , the
se lack of attention or distraction events usually build up slowly without
it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over one or two seconds.
=0A=0Abest regards=0A=0ATim-=0A=0A=0A=0AOn 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SING
LETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:=0A=0ATim=0A>don't think so ,
the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraft has accelerated, or w
orse slowed down and that takes many seconds.=0A>When it says "stall speed!
" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use.=0A>Graham=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
=0A>=0A>________________________________=0A> From: houlihan <houlihan@bluey
onder.co.uk>=0A>To: europa-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Saturday, 10 May 20
14, 14:31=0A>Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa
Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>Hi Graham.=0A>=0A>=0A>I think yo
u may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreciate what you
are suggesting but 20 seconds ?=0A>I bet the real figure is much less than
a second.=0A>Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move
at the speed of light at times.=0A>=0A>=0A>Tim=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On 10
May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
=0A>=0A>Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is al
ways 20 seconds too late.=0A>>Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building
. A very nice man and a nice Europa.=0A>>Graham=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A
>>=0A>>________________________________=0A>> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@
doctors.org.uk>=0A>>To: europa-list@matronics.com =0A>>Sent: Saturday, 10 M
ay 2014, 12:36=0A>>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germa
yce@doctors.org.uk>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>I strongly suspect that this another case
where a SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce
, G-XSDJ=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navig
ator?Europa-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com
/contribution =0A>=0A>http://www.matronics.com/con========
======== =0A>=0A>=0A>arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?Europa-List=0Atp://forums.matronics.com=0A_blank">http://www.
=========================0A
=======================
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: |
Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in =?iso-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck/Germany?
Graham, Sorry to be butting in on your debate with Tim,
and I see where you are coming from now, but can I just
add that the SmartASS is g compensated so it gives exactly
the same 'margin over stall' information as an AOA device
(and at a fraction of the price). It might appear that I
am pushing this as if I had some commercial tie up, which
is not the case. I am evangelical about it because we have
now had (subject to confirmation in this latest case) 6
Europas lost to stall/spin accidents, an appalling
statistic for a plane that flies so beautifully and is
slippery enough not to lose speed rapidly. There have of
course been countless crashes of other types also, but in
our relatively small and tight knit Europa community it is
truly sobering and we should all be asking ourselves are
we confident of not becoming number 7.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:22:00 +0100 (BST)
GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Tim
> maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure
>instantly changes in airspeed.
> When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change
>instantly but will take several seconds.
> The force causing change of airspeed is increase or
>decrease in drag, usually quite a small force.
> During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust
>and ASI will record speed of course, as soon
> as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at
>best climb.
> Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total
>weight is. (I'm thinking aloud here)
> In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at
>fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but
> change as all up weight changes.
> AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument.
>That's why fast jets use it.
> A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are!
> best regards
> Graham
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List:
>Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in
>Lbeck/Germany
>
>
>
> Hi Graham.
>
> We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what
>you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100'
>thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the
>ASI has moved from zero.
>
> I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a
>600kg mass but the pressure measurement showing movement
>relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a
>small fraction of a second even using our normal
>mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and
>could be even quicker using electronic pressure sensors
>close to the pitot head.
>
> True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just
>want to be warned if through lack of attention or being
>distracted I allow my speed to decay , these lack of
>attention or distraction events usually build up slowly
>without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens
>over one or two seconds.
>
> best regards
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON
><grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> Tim
>>don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until
>>the aircraft has accelerated, or worse slowed down and
>>that takes many seconds.
>>When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a
>>lot of use.
>>Graham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________
>> From: houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>
>>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31
>>Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List:
>>Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany
>>
>>
>>
>>Hi Graham.
>>
>>
>>I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong
>>place. I appreciate what you are suggesting but 20
>>seconds ?
>>I bet the real figure is much less than a second.
>>Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to
>>move at the speed of light at times.
>>
>>
>>Tim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON
>><grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The
>>ASI is always 20 seconds too late.
>>>Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very
>>>nice man and a nice Europa.
>>>Graham
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________
>>> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>>>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>>Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36
>>>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany
>>>
>>>
>>><davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>>>
>>>
>>>I strongly suspect that this another case where a
>>>SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both.
>>>David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>>>tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>http://www.matronics.com/con================
>>
>>
>>arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.=======================
> =======================
Message 7
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| Subject: | =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_R?= |
=?UTF-8?Q?e=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Europa_Cra?=
=?UTF-8?Q?sh_in_L=C3=BCbeck=2FGermany?
Hi Graham.
I agree with your comments about the availability of AOA indications, I
have not looked in depth at this but my understanding is the systems
available are both very expensive and difficult to install.
During development of the Jaguar aircraft the test aircraft had vane
sensors mounted well forward on the pitot boom these measured pitch and yaw
and validated the fuselage mounted incidence gauge. This was a fairly
standard device that had a tube with a pair of slots that rotates to equal
the pressure and aligns with the airflow
On a single engined piston plane anything mounted on the fuselage will be
affected by propwash and other factors, if it is mounted on the wing then
the results will be affected by the wing itself and vortcies and flow
breakdown probably at critical phases of flight. how would you check if the
installation is sound and reports correctly without having carried out
elaborate flight testing first.
I guess and its only a guess is that the pitot based versions are likely to
have the same limitations as standard pitots with things like position
error and other effects I expect these things are all able to be corrected
out one way or another with clever computation. Why is nothing simple ?
I stand by to be corrected
regards
Tim
On 11 May 2014 11:22, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>wrot
e:
> Tim
> maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in
> airspeed.
> When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instantly but will take
> several seconds.
> The force causing change of airspeed is increase or decrease in drag,
> usually quite a small force.
> During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will
> record speed of course, as soon
> as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best climb.
> Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I'm
> thinking aloud here)
> In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at fixed AoAs. They
> are not at fixed airspeeds but
> change as all up weight changes.
> AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. That's why fast
> jets use it.
> A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are!
> best regards
> Graham
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34
> *Subject:* Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re:
> Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany
>
> Hi Graham.
>
> We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true
> then on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the
> undercarriage before the ASI has moved from zero.
>
> I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the
> pressure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will
> be indicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal
> mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even
> quicker using electronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head.
>
> True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just want to be warned
> if through lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to deca
y
> , these lack of attention or distraction events usually build up slowly
> without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over one or two
> seconds.
>
> best regards
>
> Tim
>
>
> On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>wr
ote:
>
> Tim
> don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraft ha
s
> accelerated, or worse slowed down and that takes many seconds.
> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use.
> Graham
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31
> *Subject:* Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in
> L=C3=BCbeck/Germany
>
> Hi Graham.
>
> I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I
> appreciate what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ?
> I bet the real figure is much less than a second.
> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the spee
d
> of light at times.
>
> Tim
>
>
> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>wr
ote:
>
> Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 2
0
> seconds too late.
> Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice
> Europa.
> Graham
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36
> *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany
>
> davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>
>
> I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the
> equivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>
>
> *
>
> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List <http://w
ww.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List>
> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution>
>
> *
>
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/con==============
== <http://www.matronics.com/con=============
===>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List <http://w
ww.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List>
> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution>
>
> *
>
>
> <="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics
.co=======================
> " target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.m
at -->
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Facebook/Twitter |
I will not join FB or Twitter, I will continue with the Europa-List on matronics;
this is an excellent tool especially with the daily summery and all the search
functions!
Klaus
(OE-CKD, mono, classic 1200hrs)
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: f-8?Q?Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:?= =?utf-8?Q?__Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Europ?= |
=?utf-8?Q?a_Crash_in__L=C3=BCbeck/Germany?
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Crash in =?UTF-8?B?TMO8YmVjay9HZXJtYW55IA==?= |
=?UTF-8?B?LSBMaWZ0IFJlc2VydmUgSW5kaWNhdG9y?
Tim,
The creation of an AoA indicator does not need to be complex or
expensive. Unlike the military devices that you are used to working
with, a simple differential pressure gage can be made to measure the
change of the stagnation point as it moves up the leading edge of the
wing as its AoA approaches 16 degrees. It requires two carefully
positioned holes on the wing LE and cannot use the single pitot feed.
A few years ago, an enterprising company in the US began selling a
device called the "Lift Reserve Indicator". Shortly afterwards, the
attached document appeared on the internet.
Given a choice, I would endorse David's recommendation and plump for
Mark Burton's excellent "SmartAss".
Nigel
On 11/05/2014 12:09, houlihan wrote:
> Hi Graham.
>
> I agree with your comments about the availability of AOA indications,
> I have not looked in depth at this but my understanding is the systems
> available are both very expensive and difficult to install.
> During development of the Jaguar aircraft the test aircraft had vane
> sensors mounted well forward on the pitot boom these measured pitch
> and yaw and validated the fuselage mounted incidence gauge. This was a
> fairly standard device that had a tube with a pair of slots that
> rotates to equal the pressure and aligns with the airflow
> On a single engined piston plane anything mounted on the fuselage will
> be affected by propwash and other factors, if it is mounted on the
> wing then the results will be affected by the wing itself and vortcies
> and flow breakdown probably at critical phases of flight. how would
> you check if the installation is sound and reports correctly without
> having carried out elaborate flight testing first.
> I guess and its only a guess is that the pitot based versions are
> likely to have the same limitations as standard pitots with things
> like position error and other effects I expect these things are all
> able to be corrected out one way or another with clever computation.
> Why is nothing simple ?
>
> I stand by to be corrected
>
> regards
>
> Tim
>
>
Message 11
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|
-David=0A=0AI agree entirely, I have contacted Mark burton and he informs
me the mark 2 version is in test and is a few months away. Cost appears to
be very reasonable!=0A=0ACan you enlighten us all if it is retro fittable?
and how easy to do particularly on a classic?=0Argds=0ADJ=0ASent to you-
by David Joyce=0Awww.eastmidsspas.com- =0A-=0APLEASE NOTE WE HAVE MOVED
AND ARE NOW AT=0AThe Zycomm Building 51 Nottingham Road Ripley Derbys DE5
3AS=0A160 Meters from Sainsbury's Island=0A-=0ASame Phone 0800 4102122 an
d Direct Mobile 07973 675755=0A-=0A =0A=0A_______________________________
_=0A From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0ATo: europa-list@matron
ics.com =0ASent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 11:42=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re:
Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europ
a-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A =0A=0A--> Europa-List message
posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0A=0AGraham, Sorry to
be butting in on your debate with Tim, and I see where you are coming from
now, but can I just add that the SmartASS is g compensated so it gives exa
ctly the same 'margin over stall' information as an AOA device (and at a fr
action of the price). It might appear that I am pushing this as if I had so
me commercial tie up, which is not the case. I am evangelical about it beca
use we have now had (subject to confirmation in this latest case) 6 Europas
lost to stall/spin accidents, an appalling statistic for a plane that flie
s so beautifully and is slippery enough not to lose speed rapidly. There ha
ve of course been countless crashes of other types also, but in our relativ
ely small and tight knit Europa community it is truly sobering and we shoul
d all be asking ourselves are we confident of not becoming number 7.=0ARega
rds, David Joyce, G-XSDJ=0A=0A=0AOn Sun, 11 May 2014 11:22:00 +0100 (BST)
=0AGRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:=0A> Tim=0A> may
be we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in airspe
ed. When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instantly but will take
several seconds.=0A> The force causing change of airspeed is increase or d
ecrease in drag, usually quite a small force.=0A> During take off accelerat
ion is caused by engine thrust and ASI will record speed of course, as soon
as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best climb.=0A> Sta
ll occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I'm thinki
ng aloud here)=0A> In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at f
ixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but=0A> change as all up weight
changes.=0A> AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. That's
why fast jets use it.=0A> A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs
are!=0A> best regards=0A> Graham=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> _________________
_______________=0A> From: houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>=0A> To: euro
pa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34=0A> Subject: Europa-L
ist: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Eu
ropa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Hi Graham.=0A> =0A> We ma
y be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true then on
takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the undercarriage befo
re the ASI has moved from zero.=0A> =0A> I agree it takes time to accelerat
e or decelerate a 600kg mass but the pressure measurement showing movement
relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a small fraction of
a second even using our normal mechanical manometers that are calibrated i
n airspeed and could be even quicker using electronic pressure sensors clos
e to the pitot head.=0A> =0A> True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful
but I just want to be warned if through lack of attention or being distract
ed I allow my speed to decay , these lack of attention or distraction event
s usually build up slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely
happens over one or two seconds.=0A> =0A> best regards=0A> =0A> Tim-=0A>
=0A> =0A> =0A> On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@bti
nternet.com> wrote:=0A> =0A> Tim=0A>> don't think so , the ASI won't move (
or shouldn't!) until the aircraft has accelerated, or worse slowed down and
that takes many seconds.=0A>> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already s
talled. Not a lot of use.=0A>> Graham=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>>
=0A>> ________________________________=0A>> From: houlihan <houlihan@blueyo
nder.co.uk>=0A>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014,
14:31=0A>> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa
Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> Hi Graham.=0A>> =0A>> =0A>
> I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I apprecia
te what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ?=0A>> I bet the real figure is m
uch less than a second.=0A>> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my AS
I seems to move at the speed of light at times.=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> Tim=0A>>
=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON <graha
msingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:=0A>> =0A>> Or an AoA meter as primary att
itude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 20 seconds too late.=0A>>> Very s
ad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice Europa.
=0A>>> Graham=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> _____________
___________________=0A>>> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0A>
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36=0A>>> S
ubject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>
.uk>=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> I strongly suspect that this another case where a
SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ
=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navig
ator?Europa-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com
/contribution =0A>> =0A>> http://www.matronics.com/con=======
========= =0A>> =0A>> arget="_blank">http://www.matroni
cs.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A> tp://forums.matronics.com=0A> _blank">http
://www.======================
==/=0A> =====================
==================
Message 12
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|
David=2C
I was also looking for the installation manual=2C but without success. Ther
e is one website but they want my credit card details for a trial membershi
p. Has Mark got it online somewhere ?
regards Karl
From: stranfaer@btinternet.com
Subject: Europa-List: Smart Ass
David
I agree entirely=2C I have contacted Mark burton and he informs me the mark
2 version is in test and is a few months away. Cost appears to be very rea
sonable!
Can you enlighten us all if it is retro fittable? and how easy to do partic
ularly on a classic?rgdsDJ Sent to you by David Joyce
www.eastmidsspas.com PLEASE NOTE WE HAVE MOVED AND ARE NOW ATThe Zycomm B
uilding 51 Nottingham Road Ripley Derbys DE5 3AS160 Meters from Sainsbury's
Island Same Phone 0800 4102122 and Direct Mobile 07973 675755
From:=0A
David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday=2C 11 May 2014=2C 11:42
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-Li
st: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany
>
Graham=2C Sorry to be butting in on your debate with Tim=2C and I see where
you are coming from now=2C but can I just add that the SmartASS is g compe
nsated so it gives exactly the same 'margin over stall' information as an A
OA device (and at a fraction of the price). It might appear that I am pushi
ng this as if I had some=0A
commercial tie up=2C which is not the case. I am evangelical about it beca
use we have now had (subject to confirmation in this latest case) 6 Europas
lost to stall/spin accidents=2C an appalling statistic for a plane that fl
ies so beautifully and is slippery enough not to lose speed rapidly. There
have of course been countless crashes of other types also=2C but in our rel
atively small and tight knit Europa community it is truly sobering and we s
hould all be asking ourselves are we confident of not becoming number 7.
Regards=2C David Joyce=2C G-XSDJ
On Sun=2C 11 May 2014 11:22:00 +0100 (BST)
GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Tim
> maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in a
irspeed. When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instantly but will
take several seconds.
>=0A
The force causing change of airspeed is increase or decrease in drag=2C us
ually quite a small force.
> During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will reco
rd speed of course=2C as soon as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly
settle at best climb.
> Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I'm t
hinking aloud here)
> In fact best climb=2C cruise or glide speeds are also at fixed AoAs. They
are not at fixed airspeeds but
> change as all up weight changes.
> AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. That's why fast j
ets use it.
> A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are!
> best regards
> Graham
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday=2C 11 May 2014=2C 8:34
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List:
Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany
>
>
>
> Hi Graham.
>
> We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true t
hen on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the undercarria
ge before the ASI has moved from zero.
>
> I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the pr
essure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will be
indicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal mechani
cal manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even quicker us
ing electronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head.
>
> True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I=0A
just want to be warned if through lack of attention or being distracted I
allow my speed to decay =2C these lack of attention or distraction events u
sually build up slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely ha
ppens over one or two seconds.
>
> best regards
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> On 10 May 2014 22:28=2C GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
wrote:
>
> Tim
>> don't think so =2C the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraft
has accelerated=2C or worse slowed down and that takes many seconds.
>> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use.
>> Graham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday=2C 10 May 2014=2C 14:31
>> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in
L=FCbeck/Germany
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Graham.
>>
>>
>> I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreci
ate what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ?
>> I bet the real figure is much less than a second.
>> Mind you how would you measure the lag =2C my ASI seems to move at the s
peed of light at times.
>>
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 May 2014 13:19=2C GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com
> wrote:
>>
>> Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always
20 seconds too late.
>>> Very sad=2C I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a
nice Europa.
>>> Graham
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday=2C 10 May 2014=2C 12:36
>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany
>>>
>>>=0A
g.uk>
>>>
>>>
>>> I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the equiv
alent might have saved them both. David Joyce=2C G-XSDJ
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List tp://fo
rums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/con==============
==
>>
>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.==================
======/
> ============avigator?Europa-List" target="_blan
k">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?= Same great content also=0A
ttp://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com/
sp=3B -nics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://
www.matronics.com/contribut==============
=0A
=0A
=0A
============0A
============0A
============0A
============0A
=0A
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: f-8?Q?Re:_Europa-List:_Europa_Crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany_-?= =?utf-8?Q?_Lift_Reserve_Indicator? |
Fwiw, the differential pressure ports can also be on the pitot tube, if it is carefully
located out of the wing's interference. My homegrown pitot will be well
ahead of the wing. Dynon also has a differential pitot driving their aoa
display.
Cheers,
Pete
> On May 11, 2014, at 9:01 AM, Nigel Graham <nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Tim,
>
> The creation of an AoA indicator does not need to be complex or expensive. Unlike
the military devices that you are used to working with, a simple differential
pressure gage can be made to measure the change of the stagnation point as
it moves up the leading edge of the wing as its AoA approaches 16 degrees. It
requires two carefully positioned holes on the wing LE and cannot use the single
pitot feed.
>
> A few years ago, an enterprising company in the US began selling a device called
the "Lift Reserve Indicator". Shortly afterwards, the attached document appeared
on the internet.
>
> Given a choice, I would endorse David's recommendation and plump for Mark Burton's
excellent "SmartAss".
>
> Nigel
>
>
>> On 11/05/2014 12:09, houlihan wrote:
>> Hi Graham.
>>
>> I agree with your comments about the availability of AOA indications, I have
not looked in depth at this but my understanding is the systems available are
both very expensive and difficult to install.
>> During development of the Jaguar aircraft the test aircraft had vane sensors
mounted well forward on the pitot boom these measured pitch and yaw and validated
the fuselage mounted incidence gauge. This was a fairly standard device that
had a tube with a pair of slots that rotates to equal the pressure and aligns
with the airflow
>> On a single engined piston plane anything mounted on the fuselage will be affected
by propwash and other factors, if it is mounted on the wing then the results
will be affected by the wing itself and vortcies and flow breakdown probably
at critical phases of flight. how would you check if the installation is
sound and reports correctly without having carried out elaborate flight testing
first.
>> I guess and its only a guess is that the pitot based versions are likely to
have the same limitations as standard pitots with things like position error and
other effects I expect these things are all able to be corrected out one way
or another with clever computation. Why is nothing simple ?
>>
>> I stand by to be corrected
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Tim
>
> <Lift Reserve Indicator.pdf>
Message 14
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| Subject: | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-Lis?= |
=?iso-8859-1?Q?t=3A_Re=3A__Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Euro?=
=?iso-8859-1?Q?pa-List=3A_Europa_Crash_in__L=FCbeck/Germany?
David=0Aalways respect your remarks so no apology needed. =0AI need to scra
tch my bald patch to understand the G compensation aspect.=0AOne of the thi
ngs that disturbs me somewhat is that several of these accidents were with
Classics=0ADon's excellent airfoil section is very critical to inaccuracy a
round the leading edge and I noticed that sanding the LE with =0Atemplates
generated from computer printouts made a big difference to the way the wing
stalled. A single stroke=0Ain the wrong place with a flat abrasive sander
can destroy the LE profile.=0Aregartds=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________
___________________=0A From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0ATo:
europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 11:42=0ASubject: Re
: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Euro
pa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A =0A=0A--> Eu
ropa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0A
=0AGraham, Sorry to be butting in on your debate with Tim, and I see where
you are coming from now, but can I just add that the SmartASS is g compensa
ted so it gives exactly the same 'margin over stall' information as an AOA
device (and at a fraction of the price). It might appear that I am pushing
this as if I had some commercial tie up, which is not the case. I am evange
lical about it because we have now had (subject to confirmation in this lat
est case) 6 Europas lost to stall/spin accidents, an appalling statistic fo
r a plane that flies so beautifully and is slippery enough not to lose spee
d rapidly. There have of course been countless crashes of other types also,
but in our relatively small and tight knit Europa community it is truly so
bering and we should all be asking ourselves are we confident of not becomi
ng number 7.=0ARegards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ=0A=0A=0AOn Sun, 11 May 2014 11:
22:00 +0100 (BST)=0AGRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote
:=0A> Tim=0A> maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly
changes in airspeed. When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instan
tly but will take several seconds.=0A> The force causing change of airspeed
is increase or decrease in drag, usually quite a small force.=0A> During t
ake off acceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will record speed o
f course, as soon as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at be
st climb.=0A> Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weigh
t is. (I'm thinking aloud here)=0A> In fact best climb, cruise or glide spe
eds are also at fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but=0A> change
as all up weight changes.=0A> AoA is much the best primary flight control i
nstrument. That's why fast jets use it.=0A> A pity AoA meters aren't mass p
roduced like ASIs are!=0A> best regards=0A> Graham=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A>
________________________________=0A> From: houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co
.uk>=0A> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34=0A>
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re
: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Hi Graha
m.=0A> =0A> We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say
is true then on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the u
ndercarriage before the ASI has moved from zero.=0A> =0A> I agree it takes
time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the pressure measurement
showing movement relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a
small fraction of a second even using our normal mechanical manometers that
are calibrated in airspeed and could be even quicker using electronic pres
sure sensors close to the pitot head.=0A> =0A> True an AOA or alpha system
would be helpful but I just want to be warned if through lack of attention
or being distracted I allow my speed to decay , these lack of attention or
distraction events usually build up slowly without it being noticed and I w
ould guess rarely happens over one or two seconds.=0A> =0A> best regards=0A
> =0A> Tim-=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON <gr
ahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:=0A> =0A> Tim=0A>> don't think so , the
ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraft has accelerated, or wors
e slowed down and that takes many seconds.=0A>> When it says "stall speed!"
you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use.=0A>> Graham=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A
>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> ________________________________=0A>> From: houlihan <
houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>=0A>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturda
y, 10 May 2014, 14:31=0A>> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europ
a-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> Hi Graham.
=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong p
lace. I appreciate what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ?=0A>> I bet the
real figure is much less than a second.=0A>> Mind you how would you measure
the lag , my ASI seems to move at the speed of light at times.=0A>> =0A>>
=0A>> Tim=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM S
INGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:=0A>> =0A>> Or an AoA meter
as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 20 seconds too lat
e.=0A>>> Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and
a nice Europa.=0A>>> Graham=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>
> ________________________________=0A>>> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doct
ors.org.uk>=0A>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014
, 12:36=0A>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A
yce@doctors.org.uk>=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> I strongly suspect that this anothe
r case where a SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both. David
Joyce, G-XSDJ=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> arget="_blank">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Europa-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www
.matronics.com/contribution =0A>> =0A>> http://www.matronics.com/con==
============== =0A>> =0A>> arget="_blank">htt
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A> tp://forums.matronics.com
=0A> _blank">http://www.=================
========0A> ================
======================
Message 15
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| Subject: | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-Lis?= |
=?iso-8859-1?Q?t=3A_Re=3A__Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Euro?=
=?iso-8859-1?Q?pa-List=3A_Europa_Crash_in__L=FCbeck/Germany?
I also respect Mark Burton's work although I did fail to persuade him to us
e AoA..=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Da
vid Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASe
nt: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 11:42=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List:
Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europ
avid Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0A=0AGraham, Sorry to be butting in
on your debate with Tim, and I see where you are coming from now, but can
I just add that the SmartASS is g compensated so it gives exactly the same
'margin over stall' information as an AOA device (and at a fraction of the
price). It might appear that I am pushing this as if I had some commercial
tie up, which is not the case. I am evangelical about it because we have no
w had (subject to confirmation in this latest case) 6 Europas lost to stall
/spin accidents, an appalling statistic for a plane that flies so beautiful
ly and is slippery enough not to lose speed rapidly. There have of course b
een countless crashes of other types also, but in our relatively small and
tight knit Europa community it is truly sobering and we should all be askin
g ourselves are we confident of not becoming number 7.=0ARegards, David Joy
ce, G-XSDJ=0A=0A=0AOn Sun, 11 May 2014 11:22:00 +0100 (BST)=0AGRAHAM SINGLE
TON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:=0A> Tim=0A> maybe we are mixing
things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in airspeed. When AoA cha
nges aircraft speed will not change instantly but will take several seconds
.=0A> The force causing change of airspeed is increase or decrease in drag,
usually quite a small force.=0A> During take off acceleration is caused by
engine thrust and ASI will record speed of course, as soon as the aircraft
is flying AoA should quickly settle at best climb.=0A> Stall occurs at the
same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I'm thinking aloud here)
=0A> In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at fixed AoAs. The
y are not at fixed airspeeds but=0A> change as all up weight changes.=0A> A
oA is much the best primary flight control instrument. That's why fast jets
use it.=0A> A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are!=0A> best
regards=0A> Graham=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> _______________________________
_=0A> From: houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>=0A> To: europa-list@matron
ics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34=0A> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europ
a-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in
L=FCbeck/Germany=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Hi Graham.=0A> =0A> We may be talking a
pples against pears here BUT if what you say is true then on takeoff I woul
d be at 100' thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the ASI has
moved from zero.=0A> =0A> I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerat
e a 600kg mass but the pressure measurement showing movement relative to th
e local air mass will be indicated within a small fraction of a second even
using our normal mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and
could be even quicker using electronic pressure sensors close to the pitot
head.=0A> =0A> True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just wan
t to be warned if through lack of attention or being distracted I allow my
speed to decay , these lack of attention or distraction events usually buil
d up slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over
one or two seconds.=0A> =0A> best regards=0A> =0A> Tim-=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A
> On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> w
rote:=0A> =0A> Tim=0A>> don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!)
until the aircraft has accelerated, or worse slowed down and that takes ma
ny seconds.=0A>> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a
lot of use.=0A>> Graham=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> __________
______________________=0A>> From: houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>=0A>>
To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31=0A>> Subj
ect: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbec
k/Germany=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> Hi Graham.=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> I think you ma
y have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreciate what you are
suggesting but 20 seconds ?=0A>> I bet the real figure is much less than a
second.=0A>> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move
at the speed of light at times.=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> Tim=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>>
=0A>> =0A>> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinte
rnet.com> wrote:=0A>> =0A>> Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instr
ument. The ASI is always 20 seconds too late.=0A>>> Very sad, I met Manfred
while he was building. A very nice man and a nice Europa.=0A>>> Graham=0A>
>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> ______________________________
__=0A>>> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0A>>> To: europa-lis
t@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36=0A>>> Subject: Re: Europ
a-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> --> Europa-Lis
t message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0A>>> =0A>>>
=0A>>> I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the e
quivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>
>> =0A>>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List t
p://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A>
> =0A>> http://www.matronics.com/con=============
=== =0A>> =0A>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?E
uropa-List=0A> tp://forums.matronics.com=0A> _blank">http://www.===
======================0A> ==
=============
Message 16
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Karl, I could copy relevant sections of my mk 2
installation manual to you if you tell me what you are
after. David Joyce, G-XSDJ
PS Don't get confused over the multiple David Joyces in
this message!
On Sun, 11 May 2014 15:00:22 +0100
Karl Heindl <kheindl@msn.com> wrote:
> David,
> I was also looking for the installation manual, but
>without success. There is one website but they want my
>credit card details for a trial membership. Has Mark got
>it online somewhere ?
> regards Karl
>
> Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 14:31:30 +0100
>From: stranfaer@btinternet.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Smart Ass
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>
> David
> I agree entirely, I have contacted Mark burton and he
>informs me the mark 2 version is in test and is a few
>months away. Cost appears to be very reasonable!
> Can you enlighten us all if it is retro fittable? and
>how easy to do particularly on a classic?rgdsDJ Sent to
>you by David Joyce
> www.eastmidsspas.com PLEASE NOTE WE HAVE MOVED AND ARE
>NOW ATThe Zycomm Building 51 Nottingham Road Ripley
>Derbys DE5 3AS160 Meters from Sainsbury's Island Same
>Phone 0800 4102122 and Direct Mobile 07973 675755
>
> From:
> David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 11:42
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re:
>Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re:
>Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany
>
><davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>
> Graham, Sorry to be butting in on your debate with Tim,
>and I see where you are coming from now, but can I just
>add that the SmartASS is g compensated so it gives
>exactly the same 'margin over stall' information as an
>AOA device (and at a fraction of the price). It might
>appear that I am pushing this as if I had some
> commercial tie up, which is not the case. I am
>evangelical about it because we have now had (subject to
>confirmation in this latest case) 6 Europas lost to
>stall/spin accidents, an appalling statistic for a plane
>that flies so beautifully and is slippery enough not to
>lose speed rapidly. There have of course been countless
>crashes of other types also, but in our relatively small
>and tight knit Europa community it is truly sobering and
>we should all be asking ourselves are we confident of not
>becoming number 7.
> Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>
>
> On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:22:00 +0100 (BST)
> GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Tim
>> maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure
>>instantly changes in airspeed. When AoA changes aircraft
>>speed will not change instantly but will take several
>>seconds.
>>
> The force causing change of airspeed is increase or
>decrease in drag, usually quite a small force.
>> During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust
>>and ASI will record speed of course, as soon as the
>>aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best
>>climb.
>> Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total
>>weight is. (I'm thinking aloud here)
>> In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at
>>fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but
>> change as all up weight changes.
>> AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument.
>>That's why fast jets use it.
>> A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are!
>> best regards
>> Graham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014,
>>8:34
>> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List:
>>Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in
>>Lbeck/Germany
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Graham.
>>
>> We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what
>>you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100'
>>thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the
>>ASI has moved from zero.
>>
>> I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a
>>600kg mass but the pressure measurement showing movement
>>relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a
>>small fraction of a second even using our normal
>>mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and
>>could be even quicker using electronic pressure sensors
>>close to the pitot head.
>>
>> True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I
> just want to be warned if through lack of attention or
>being distracted I allow my speed to decay , these lack
>of attention or distraction events usually build up
>slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely
>happens over one or two seconds.
>>
>> best regards
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON
>><grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>> Tim
>>> don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!)
>>>until the aircraft has accelerated, or worse slowed down
>>>and that takes many seconds.
>>> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not
>>>a lot of use.
>>> Graham
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>
>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May
>>>2014, 14:31
>>> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List:
>>>Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Graham.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong
>>>place. I appreciate what you are suggesting but 20
>>>seconds ?
>>> I bet the real figure is much less than a second.
>>> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to
>>>move at the speed of light at times.
>>>
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON
>>><grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument.
>>>The ASI is always 20 seconds too late.
>>>> Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very
>>>>nice man and a nice Europa.
>>>> Graham
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May
>>>>2014, 12:36
>>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany
>>>>
>>>>
>
>>>><davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I strongly suspect that this another case where a
>>>>SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both.
>>>>David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>>>>tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>>_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/con================
>>>
>>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.========================/
>> ============avigator?Europa-List"
>>target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?= Same
>>great content also
> ttp://forums.matronics.com/"
>target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com/sp;
> -nics.com/contribution"
>target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribut==============
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ==========
> ==========
> ==========
> ==========
>
>
Message 17
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Multiple?=0A=0AOnly 2=0A=0AThat's enough for one list don't you think?=0A
=0A;-)-=0ASent to you-by David Joyce=0Awww.eastmidsspas.com- =0A-
=0APLEASE NOTE WE HAVE MOVED AND ARE NOW AT=0AThe Zycomm Building 51 Nottin
gham Road Ripley Derbys DE5 3AS=0A160 Meters from Sainsbury's Island=0A-
=0ASame Phone 0800 4102122 and Direct Mobile 07973 675755=0A-=0A =0A=0A__
______________________________=0A From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org
.uk>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 15:40=0A
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Smart Ass=0A =0A=0A--> Europa-List message poste
d by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0A=0AKarl, I could copy rel
evant sections of my mk 2 installation manual to you if you tell me what yo
u are after. David Joyce, G-XSDJ=0APS Don't get confused over the multiple
David Joyces in this message!=0A=0A=0AOn Sun, 11 May 2014 15:00:22 +0100=0A
Karl Heindl <kheindl@msn.com> wrote:=0A> David,=0A> I was also looking for
the installation manual, but without success. There is one website but they
want my credit card details for a trial membership. Has Mark got it online
somewhere ?=0A> regards Karl=0A> =0A> Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 14:31:30 +010
0=0A> From: stranfaer@btinternet.com=0A> Subject: Europa-List: Smart Ass=0A
> To: europa-list@matronics.com=0A> =0A> David=0A> I agree entirely, I have
contacted Mark burton and he informs me the mark 2 version is in test and
is a few months away. Cost appears to be very reasonable!=0A> Can you enlig
hten us all if it is retro fittable? and how easy to do particularly on a c
lassic?rgdsDJ Sent to you by David Joyce=0A> www.eastmidsspas.com- PLEAS
E NOTE WE HAVE MOVED AND ARE NOW ATThe Zycomm Building 51 Nottingham Road R
ipley Derbys DE5 3AS160 Meters from Sainsbury's Island Same Phone 0800 4102
122 and Direct Mobile 07973 675755=0A> =0A>- - - - From:=0A> David
Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0A> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: S
unday, 11 May 2014, 11:42=0A> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re
: Europa-List: Re:- Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa
avid Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0A> =0A> Graham, Sorry to be buttin
g in on your debate with Tim, and I see where you are coming from now, but
can I just add that the SmartASS is g compensated so it gives exactly the s
ame 'margin over stall' information as an AOA device (and at a fraction of
the price). It might appear that I am pushing this as if I had some=0A> com
mercial tie up, which is not the case. I am evangelical about it because we
have now had (subject to confirmation in this latest case) 6 Europas lost
to stall/spin accidents, an appalling statistic for a plane that flies so b
eautifully and is slippery enough not to lose speed rapidly. There have of
course been countless crashes of other types also, but in our relatively sm
all and tight knit Europa community it is truly sobering and we should all
be asking ourselves are we confident of not becoming number 7.=0A> Regards,
David Joyce, G-XSDJ=0A> =0A> =0A> On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:22:00 +0100 (BST)
=0A> GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:=0A>> Tim=0A>>
maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in ai
rspeed. When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instantly but will
take several seconds.=0A>> =0A> The force causing change of airspeed is inc
rease or decrease in drag, usually quite a small force.=0A>> During take of
f acceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will record speed of cour
se, as soon as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best cli
mb.=0A>> Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is.
(I'm thinking aloud here)=0A>> In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds
are also at fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but=0A>> change as
all up weight changes.=0A>> AoA is much the best primary flight control ins
trument. That's why fast jets use it.=0A>> A pity AoA meters aren't mass pr
oduced like ASIs are!=0A>> best regards=0A>> Graham=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>>
=0A>> ________________________________=0A>> From: houlihan <houlihan@blueyo
nder.co.uk>=0A>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8
:34=0A>> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa
-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A>> =0A>> =0A>>
=0A>> Hi Graham.=0A>> =0A>> We may be talking apples against pears here BUT
if what you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about
retracting the undercarriage before the ASI has moved from zero.=0A>> =0A>>
I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the pre
ssure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will be i
ndicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal mechanic
al manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even quicker usi
ng electronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head.=0A>> =0A>> True an
AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I=0A> just want to be warned if th
rough lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to decay , the
se lack of attention or distraction events usually build up slowly without
it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over one or two seconds.
=0A>> =0A>> best regards=0A>> =0A>> Tim =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> On 10 May 2014 22
:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:=0A>> =0A>> Ti
m=0A>>> don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircr
aft has accelerated, or worse slowed down and that takes many seconds.=0A>>
> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use.=0A>
>> Graham=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> _________________
_______________=0A>>> From: houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>=0A>>> To:
europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31=0A>>> Subject:
Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Ge
rmany=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> Hi Graham.=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> I think you
may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreciate what you a
re suggesting but 20 seconds ?=0A>>> I bet the real figure is much less tha
n a second.=0A>>> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to
move at the speed of light at times.=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> Tim=0A>>> =0A>>>
=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahams
ingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:=0A>>> =0A>>> Or an AoA meter as primary att
itude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 20 seconds too late.=0A>>>> Very
sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice Europa
.=0A>>>> Graham=0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>>>> ____
____________________________=0A>>>> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.o
rg.uk>=0A>>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12
:36=0A>>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A>>>
vidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>>>> I strongly suspect that thi
s another case where a SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them bot
h. David Joyce, G-XSDJ=0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>>>> arget="_blank">http
://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank
">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A>>> =0A>>> http://www.matronics.
com/con================ =0A>>> arget="_bl
ank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A>> tp://forums.matron
ics.com=0A>> _blank">http://www.==============
==========/=0A>> ============av
igator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?
= Same great content also=0A> ttp://forums.matronics.com/" target="_bla
nk">http://forums.matronics.com/sp;- - - - - - - - - -
-nics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribu
t================0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A>
- - =0A> =0A> ============0A> ======
======0A> ============0A> =====
=======0A> =0A> --- --- --- - ---
====================
Message 18
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I fitted the mk2 to G-IVER in 2007 before first flight,
it's very straight forward to fit and works a treat, the few times I left it switched
off for the bi annual flight test just goes to show how it reduces your
workload especially doing EFATO and simulated off airfield landings,
Without doubt it a highly recommended bit of kit for very little money IMO
Ivor Phillips
Sent from my iPad
> On 11 May 2014, at 15:40, "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Karl, I could copy relevant sections of my mk 2 installation manual to you if
you tell me what you are after. David Joyce, G-XSDJ
> PS Don't get confused over the multiple David Joyces in this message!
>
>
> On Sun, 11 May 2014 15:00:22 +0100
> Karl Heindl <kheindl@msn.com> wrote:
>> David,
>> I was also looking for the installation manual, but without success. There is
one website but they want my credit card details for a trial membership. Has
Mark got it online somewhere ?
>> regards Karl
>> Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 14:31:30 +0100
>> From: stranfaer@btinternet.com
>> Subject: Europa-List: Smart Ass
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> David
>> I agree entirely, I have contacted Mark burton and he informs me the mark 2
version is in test and is a few months away. Cost appears to be very reasonable!
>> Can you enlighten us all if it is retro fittable? and how easy to do particularly
on a classic?rgdsDJ Sent to you by David Joyce
>> www.eastmidsspas.com PLEASE NOTE WE HAVE MOVED AND ARE NOW ATThe Zycomm Building 51 Nottingham Road Ripley Derbys DE5 3AS160 Meters from Sainsbury's Island Same Phone 0800 4102122 and Direct Mobile 07973 675755
>> From:
>> David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 11:42
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List:
Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany
>> Graham, Sorry to be butting in on your debate with Tim, and I see where you
are coming from now, but can I just add that the SmartASS is g compensated so
it gives exactly the same 'margin over stall' information as an AOA device (and
at a fraction of the price). It might appear that I am pushing this as if I
had some
>> commercial tie up, which is not the case. I am evangelical about it because
we have now had (subject to confirmation in this latest case) 6 Europas lost to
stall/spin accidents, an appalling statistic for a plane that flies so beautifully
and is slippery enough not to lose speed rapidly. There have of course
been countless crashes of other types also, but in our relatively small and tight
knit Europa community it is truly sobering and we should all be asking ourselves
are we confident of not becoming number 7.
>> Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>> On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:22:00 +0100 (BST)
>> GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> Tim
>>> maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in airspeed.
When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instantly but will take
several seconds.
>> The force causing change of airspeed is increase or decrease in drag, usually
quite a small force.
>>> During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will record
speed of course, as soon as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle
at best climb.
>>> Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I'm thinking
aloud here)
>>> In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at fixed AoAs. They are
not at fixed airspeeds but
>>> change as all up weight changes.
>>> AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. That's why fast jets
use it.
>>> A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are!
>>> best regards
>>> Graham
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>
>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34
>>> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re:
Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany
>>> Hi Graham.
>>> We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true then
on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the undercarriage before
the ASI has moved from zero.
>>> I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the pressure
measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will be indicated
within a small fraction of a second even using our normal mechanical manometers
that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even quicker using electronic
pressure sensors close to the pitot head.
>>> True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I
>> just want to be warned if through lack of attention or being distracted I allow
my speed to decay , these lack of attention or distraction events usually
build up slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over
one or two seconds.
>>> best regards
>>> Tim On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
wrote:
>>> Tim
>>>> don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraft has
accelerated, or worse slowed down and that takes many seconds.
>>>> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use.
>>>> Graham
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>
>>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31
>>>> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany
>>>> Hi Graham.
>>>> I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreciate
what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ?
>>>> I bet the real figure is much less than a second.
>>>> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the speed
of light at times.
>>>> Tim
>>>>> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 20
seconds too late.
>>>>> Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice
Europa.
>>>>> Graham
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>>>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36
>>>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany
>>>>>
>>>>> I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the equivalent
might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>>>>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>> http://www.matronics.com/con================ arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>> _blank">http://www.========================/
>>> ============avigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?= Same great content also
>> ttp://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com/sp; -nics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribut==============
>> ==========
>> ==========
>> ==========
>> ==========
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: |
Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in =?iso-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck/Germany?
Graham, You should probably be contacting Mark Burton for
a definitive answer to that, but my understanding is that
the mark 2 SmartASS and the upcoming mk 3 (as opposed to
the mk 1) have solid state accelerometers built in and
they modify the speed slow & speed very slow messages in
realtion to the increased g effect on stall speed so that
if you are set for 60 as your approach speed if you pull a
60 degree bank whilst maintaining 60kt she will get
agitated
and tell you 'speed slow' or probably 'very slow'. You are
of
course increasing the AOA to achieve that bank angle and
the signal would go from probably yellow to red and the
associated audible warnings on the new Bendix King AOA
system would show comparable change.
I accept that inaccurate profiling might
change
the stall speed and behaviour and favour a wing drop, but
nevertheless I feel strongly that the underlying critical
factor in the sort of disasters we are talking about is
allowing the speed to decay dramatically whilst heavily
distracted in a highly stressed situation. A slightly
inaccurate Classic wing might stall at say 42kts whilst my
beautiful XS wing stalls at 38 but neither of us should be
anywhere near these speeds unless moments from touch down!
In serious emergencies such as EFATOs even the most
experienced & qualified pilots can be distracted enough to
totally ignore speed control, so we all need a system that
points out in unignorable fashion that our speed is
getting dangerously slow, when we are looking out of the
window desperately trying to identify a place we might
land without killing ourselves. Student pilots are
significantly
more likely to die from stall/spin accidents with an
instructor
on board than flying solo. My (& I suspect most)
stall warner does not fit that bill. It is in the head
rest and advancing deafness and super new head sets mean
it is only just audible, and on top of that I am
used to ignoring it for much of the take off and landing
runs. Regards, David
On Sun, 11 May 2014 15:14:08 +0100 (BST)
GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
> David
> always respect your remarks so no apology needed. I need
>to scratch my bald patch to understand the G compensation
>aspect.
> One of the things that disturbs me somewhat is that
>several of these accidents were with Classics
> Don's excellent airfoil section is very critical to
>inaccuracy around the leading edge and I noticed that
>sanding the LE with templates generated from computer
>printouts made a big difference to the way the wing
>stalled. A single stroke
> in the wrong place with a flat abrasive sander can
>destroy the LE profile.
> regartds
> Graham
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014,
>11:42
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re:
>Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re:
>Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany
>
>
><davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>
> Graham, Sorry to be butting in on your debate with Tim,
>and I see where you are coming from now, but can I just
>add that the SmartASS is g compensated so it gives exactly
>the same 'margin over stall' information as an AOA device
>(and at a fraction of the price). It might appear that I
>am pushing this as if I had some commercial tie up, which
>is not the case. I am evangelical about it because we have
>now had (subject to confirmation in this latest case) 6
>Europas lost to stall/spin accidents, an appalling
>statistic for a plane that flies so beautifully and is
>slippery enough not to lose speed rapidly. There have of
>course been countless crashes of other types also, but in
>our relatively small and tight knit Europa community it is
>truly sobering and we should all be asking ourselves are
>we confident of not becoming number 7.
> Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>
>
> On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:22:00 +0100 (BST)
> GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Tim
>> maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure
>>instantly changes in airspeed. When AoA changes aircraft
>>speed will not change instantly but will take several
>>seconds.
>> The force causing change of airspeed is increase or
>>decrease in drag, usually quite a small force.
>> During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust
>>and ASI will record speed of course, as soon as the
>>aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best
>>climb.
>> Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total
>>weight is. (I'm thinking aloud here)
>> In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at
>>fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but
>> change as all up weight changes.
>> AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument.
>>That's why fast jets use it.
>> A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are!
>> best regards
>> Graham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014,
>>8:34
>> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List:
>>Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in
>>Lbeck/Germany
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Graham.
>>
>> We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what
>>you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100'
>>thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the ASI
>>has moved from zero.
>>
>> I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg
>>mass but the pressure measurement showing movement
>>relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a
>>small fraction of a second even using our normal
>>mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and
>>could be even quicker using electronic pressure sensors
>>close to the pitot head.
>>
>> True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just
>>want to be warned if through lack of attention or being
>>distracted I allow my speed to decay , these lack of
>>attention or distraction events usually build up slowly
>>without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens
>>over one or two seconds.
>>
>> best regards
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON
>><grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>> Tim
>>> don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until
>>>the aircraft has accelerated, or worse slowed down and
>>>that takes many seconds.
>>> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a
>>>lot of use.
>>> Graham
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>
>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May
>>>2014, 14:31
>>> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List:
>>>Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Graham.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong
>>>place. I appreciate what you are suggesting but 20 seconds
>>>?
>>> I bet the real figure is much less than a second.
>>> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to
>>>move at the speed of light at times.
>>>
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON
>>><grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The
>>>ASI is always 20 seconds too late.
>>>> Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very
>>>>nice man and a nice Europa.
>>>> Graham
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May
>>>>2014, 12:36
>>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany
>>>>
>>>>
>>>><davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I strongly suspect that this another case where a
>>>>SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both.
>>>>David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>>>>tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>>_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/con================
>>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.=======================
>> ======================================
Message 20
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On May 11, 2014, at 8:00 AM, Ivor Phillips <ivor.phillips@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
> Without doubt it a highly recommended bit of kit for very little money
When attempting to go to =93www.smartavionics.com=94, I get an
=93Untrusted Connection=94 prompt indicating that
"If you usually connect to this site without problems, this error could
mean that someone is trying to impersonate the site, and you shouldn't
continue.=94
Has anyone else encountered this situation?
Fred
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck?=/Germany |
Is it a stall? my first thought was i would probably be putting the wheel away
to get some climb about there; what if a flap pin was a bit short or the flap
one side moved out board and only one was brought up?
Certainly those first few flights are risky even with the best inspections.
As for saying one wrong sweep when sanding the leading edge will radically affect
the stall characteristics, is that true or help our cause? Perhaps a little
alarmist - no sane builder is going to put a flat on it.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423177#423177
Message 22
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Fred
Site worked for me. Got a response from Mark this morning indicating that th
e device is currently in flight test and will be available in one or two mon
ths.
Jerry
Sent from my iPad
> On May 11, 2014, at 8:25 AM, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
>
>> On May 11, 2014, at 8:00 AM, Ivor Phillips <ivor.phillips@ntlworld.com> w
rote:
>>
>> Without doubt it a highly recommended bit of kit for very little money
>
> When attempting to go to =9Cwww.smartavionics.com=9D, I get an
=9CUntrusted Connection=9D prompt indicating that
>
> "If you usually connect to this site without problems, this error could me
an that someone is trying to impersonate the site, and you shouldn't continu
e.=9D
>
> Has anyone else encountered this situation?
>
> Fred
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: f-8?Q?Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:?= =?utf-8?Q?_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Eu?= |
=?utf-8?Q?ropa-List:_Europa_Crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany?
Tim et al,
Reflecting on your message, you may agree with me on a few points.
Pitch angle refers to the angle between the a/c longitudinal axis and level.
Angle of incidence, if not mistaken, to longitudinal axis and MAC(?)
The vanes in front of the Jaguar, I believe would measure AOA, which is rela
tive airflow to long. axis.
I do agree that measured AOA could be affected by proximity to the wing, but
isn't that the reason it is placed there, in order to read actual AOA on th
e wing and not theoretical?
Brgds and queuing up for correction :-)
Alex Kaarsberg
Em 11/05/2014, =C3-s 13:09, houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk> escreveu:
> Hi Graham.
>
> I agree with your comments about the availability of AOA indications, I ha
ve not looked in depth at this but my understanding is the systems available
are both very expensive and difficult to install.
> During development of the Jaguar aircraft the test aircraft had vane senso
rs mounted well forward on the pitot boom these measured pitch and yaw and v
alidated the fuselage mounted incidence gauge. This was a fairly standard de
vice that had a tube with a pair of slots that rotates to equal the pressure
and aligns with the airflow
> On a single engined piston plane anything mounted on the fuselage will be a
ffected by propwash and other factors, if it is mounted on the wing then the
results will be affected by the wing itself and vortcies and flow breakdown
probably at critical phases of flight. how would you check if the installat
ion is sound and reports correctly without having carried out elaborate flig
ht testing first.
> I guess and its only a guess is that the pitot based versions are likely t
o have the same limitations as standard pitots with things like position err
or and other effects I expect these things are all able to be corrected out o
ne way or another with clever computation. Why is nothing simple ?
>
> I stand by to be corrected
>
> regards
>
> Tim
>
>
> On 11 May 2014 11:22, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wr
ote:
> Tim
> maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in ai
rspeed.
> When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instantly but will take se
veral seconds.
> The force causing change of airspeed is increase or decrease in drag, usua
lly quite a small force.
> During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will recor
d speed of course, as soon
> as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best climb.
> Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I'm th
inking aloud here)
> In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at fixed AoAs. They ar
e not at fixed airspeeds but
> change as all up weight changes.
> AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. That's why fast je
ts use it.
> A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are!
> best regards
> Graham
>
>
> From: houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: R
e: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany
>
> Hi Graham.
>
> We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true th
en on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the undercarriage
before the ASI has moved from zero.
>
> I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the pre
ssure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will be in
dicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal mechanical
manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even quicker using e
lectronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head.
>
> True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just want to be warned i
f through lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to decay , t
hese lack of attention or distraction events usually build up slowly without
it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over one or two seconds.
>
> best regards
>
> Tim
>
>
> On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wr
ote:
> Tim
> don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraft has
accelerated, or worse slowed down and that takes many seconds.
> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use.
> Graham
>
>
> From: houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=C3
=BCbeck/Germany
>
> Hi Graham.
>
> I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreciat
e what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ?
> I bet the real figure is much less than a second.
> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the speed
of light at times.
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wr
ote:
> Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 20
seconds too late.
> Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice E
uropa.
> Graham
>
>
> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany
>
k>
>
>
> I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the equivale
nt might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>
>
>
>
> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/con================
>
>
>
>
>
> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> <="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.
co=======================
> " target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.ma
t -->
>
> t" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
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>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: f-8?Q?Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:?= =?utf-8?Q?_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Eu?= |
=?utf-8?Q?ropa-List:_Europa_Crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany?
And for something a little more authoritative than what I can extract from m
y moldy brain, here is a link to Wikipedia for better clarification:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_attack
Alex Kaarsberg
Em 11/05/2014, =C3-s 18:33, Alex Kaarsberg <kaarsberg@terra.com.br> escrev
eu:
> Tim et al,
>
> Reflecting on your message, you may agree with me on a few points.
> Pitch angle refers to the angle between the a/c longitudinal axis and leve
l.
> Angle of incidence, if not mistaken, to longitudinal axis and MAC(?)
> The vanes in front of the Jaguar, I believe would measure AOA, which is re
lative airflow to long. axis.
> I do agree that measured AOA could be affected by proximity to the wing, b
ut isn't that the reason it is placed there, in order to read actual AOA on t
he wing and not theoretical?
>
> Brgds and queuing up for correction :-)
>
> Alex Kaarsberg
>
> Em 11/05/2014, =C3-s 13:09, houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Crash in =?utf-8?Q?L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? |
Graeme, I can tell you that you can fly with one flap up &
one down! I am ashamed to say (but too old to be too
ashamed - having seen that pretty much everyone makes some
sort of cock up if they carry on flying long enough!),
that I managed to rig my mono with the flap pin on one
side in front of the flap socket. It looked normal on walk
around, but proved very entertaining when I put gear up
and only one flap came up, the other staying half down. It
wasn't too much of a problem although certainly would have
been had I been doing say 40kts. And just to say that your
near name sake who started this thread is a very sane and
very experienced builder responsible for numerous Europa
mods, who has enormous experience of the development of
the Europa. His remarks are worth taking seriously
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
On Sun, 11 May 2014 08:48:11 -0700
"graeme bird" <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk> wrote:
><graeme@gdbmk.co.uk>
>
> Is it a stall? my first thought was i would probably be
>putting the wheel away to get some climb about there;
>what if a flap pin was a bit short or the flap one side
>moved out board and only one was brought up?
> Certainly those first few flights are risky even with
>the best inspections.
>
> As for saying one wrong sweep when sanding the leading
>edge will radically affect the stall characteristics, is
>that true or help our cause? Perhaps a little alarmist -
>no sane builder is going to put a flat on it.
>
> --------
> Graeme Bird
> G-UMPY
> Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
> Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono
> g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423177#423177
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Un/Subscription,
>Forums!
>Admin.
>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Europa crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=C3=BCbeck?=/Germany |
Interesting to hear that you can fly with a flap down; but for me a lot is going
on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the VSI, changing prop
pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the leaver with the right hand
etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its first flight, I am not
sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudden roll at that point.
Yep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions; I am just thinking of the message,
unintentionally, its sending to current builders. The fact is hundreds
have been made by imperfect amateurs and the stall characteristics are one of
the first things explored during the test flights.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188
Message 27
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| Subject: | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa_crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Ger?= |
=?iso-8859-1?Q?many?
Graeme=0AI was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a sligh
t bump just=0Aunder the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose radius
is also quite small,=0Aagain easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine ab
rasive round the LE.Accurate =0Atemplates are essential and the plans versi
on isn't accurate enough for these subtle=0Acurves. That's what was wrong w
ith G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing in a flaps down=0Astall.=0AGraham
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: graeme bird <graem
e@gdbmk.co.uk>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, 11 May 2014
, 18:57=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany=0A
=0A=0AInteresting to hear that you can fly with a flap down; but for me a l
ot is going on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the VSI,
changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the leaver
with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its firs
t flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudden roll
at that point.=0A=0AYep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions; I am
just thinking of the message, unintentionally, its sending to current buil
ders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amateurs and the sta
ll characteristics are one of the first things explored during the test fli
ghts.=0A=0A--------=0AGraeme Bird=0AG-UMPY=0AMono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp
3000/3W=0ANewby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono =0Ag(at)gdbmk.co.uk=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/view
-========================
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List
======
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_Europa?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?-List:_Re:?= |
=?iso-8859-1?Q?_Europa-Li?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?st:_Re:_Eu?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ropa_crash?=
=?iso-8859-1?Q?_in_L=C3=BCbec?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?k/Germany?
Graham and others.
Good comment on the leading edge curve. My Classic wing has that slight cu
p sanded and filled off by my painter. It has a bit of a sharp stall like
a normal series 6 airfoil.
On the accident comments:
I hate to speculate=2C but the accident investigator training and extensive
flight envelope expanding time I have acquired=2C leads me to use caution
speculating at this time and to causes and early on assumptions on should h
ave had equipment=2C etc.
The initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft) needs to make sure i
t is made in baby steps.
After building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas (yes I am starting our 1
6th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other owners aircraft=2C many
things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident.
My last call from a US accident inspector was a very long time ago. Here i
s what we discussed on a takeoff leg=2C attempted turn back and high angle
impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft.
Off the top of my fuzzy balding head:
On takeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle. In tes
ting of 12AY (a Classic) with 914=2C the full flap takeoff has a deck angle
of 10 degrees (and about a 12.5 degree angle of attack) at 55 Knots. When
pulling the power back abruptly during test=2C at 55 knots=2C I found only
3 seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning.
Since the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is about 8 d
egrees glide slope or so=2C one can see that it requires a 13 degree push o
ver to try to preserve airspeed and control.
Lesson for everybody: Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires an a
ggressive nose down push to preserve airspeed.
Clean=2C it wasn't much better=2C in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the deck
angle is close to 15 degrees and the results were a very rapid bleed off u
nless a push over to nose slightly below the horizon (about 5 degrees) was
necessary to preserve airspeed.
To the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight testing:
A new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipment to he
lp determine his AOA. These systems require calibration and testing. I do
ubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft systems in flight t
est yet. Un-calibrated equipment often times leads to more cockpit distrac
tions early on.
I have no data on this accident and doubt I or we will get much other than
stall spin accident.
My flight test comments are as follows:
We know that in the preflight phase=2C Annex E for wing angles/tail plane a
ngles and control throws is not enough. Retract tests are essential to ver
ify gear lock=2C flap position/operation=2C and outrigger lock operates ful
l proof. The engine and fuel system must be bullet proof at level and max
angle nose up. The fuel system must be able to go from empty to fully prim
ed at max angle with only 5 gallons total (the main and reserve side holdin
g 2.5 each across the saddle) in 5 seconds or less. Complete Wt. and Balan
ce and a review of max forward=2C aft and test flight loads and CGs verifie
d on the Wt and Bal form. (I normally will fly with a minimum of 10 gallon
s US on test flights.) The engine must run flawlessly idle to full and not
overheat on the ground for 20-25 minutes running at summer time temps.
The electrical system must be able to handle the load=2C and if there is a
cockpit smoke situation=2C battery off=2C the engine must run with ignition
only. (914s don't forget the Aux pump operation.)
All engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pitot and static)
must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight. (Read as no re
d light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and altitude indications)
. Trim must be checked and verified operational.
All aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio is a
must=2C Transponder is often required=2C ELT operational=2C (I turn AOA and
Autopilots off).
The night before=2C I chair fly and prepare for the flight. I go over airc
raft systems=2C test parameters=2C panel layout and specifics of complex el
ectrical systems.
Flight one is 15 minutes to check for runs drips and errors. (Immediate ac
celeration to 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one of our planes ha
nds off=2C feet only=2C half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50 feet.) C
limb to 2500 feet or so and check the trim and rig from 70 to 100 Knots. R
eturn to the pattern=2C 80 on downwind=2C no slower than 75 in the turns=2C
and no slower than 70 on final. One of two low approaches if in a mono is
OK. Land and pull the cowl and inspect. Fix any and everything you foun
d abnormal.
Flight two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and performance
. Check CS prop operation=2C and climb 3 mistakes high and do A/S verifica
tion=2C stalls=2C falls and pitch and roll stability. Typically our engine
s are flawless so it is only a 45 minute flight. If all goes well and we h
ave good stall characteristics=2C go back and review the flight. (I have
needed stall strips on the root to get a good early burble feel prior to st
all.
Once I am convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my aircraft for ab
out 5 hours and is very current in other types) is ready=2C I prebrief with
him and hand him the keys for a test hop.
However=2C I have been guilty of flying a test flight early into the flight
phase dual. Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high to do thi
s. A thorough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on takeoff is
a must. The aircraft is the last thing I will attempt to save. Two people
flying an untested aircraft is too much exposure and sometimes weight. (
My rule is the plane is not ready for test flight unless you are prepared t
o knock on the test pilots door and explain her husband is dead=2C and ther
e was nothing that you could have done to make the aircraft safer.)
Typically in the flight phase we go out dual and do stalls=2C slow flight
=2C advance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the pilot is comfor
table=2C the stalls are predictable and easily recognized. ( I am the tech
nical observer who is verifying airspeeds=2C pitch angles=2C stall buffet
=2C system operation and calibration while the client flies.) This is wher
e the AOA=2C Autopilot etc. gets calibrated or rung out.
Frankly=2C my opinion is that an AOA systems in straight wing aircraft is a
waste of money for me and I prefer a well installed stall strip (swept win
g aircraft are different). That said=2C after the 3rd 300 mile leg in 90F
degree weather=2C sometimes it is nice to have "Bitching Betty" remind me t
hat I am not paying attention. Fatigue and complacency do set in to us all
. If one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability=2C watch your speed
as the aircraft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean=2C you could be fal
ling with style and not know it unless looking at the airspeed. Here is wh
ere an AOA=2C Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator=2C and proper
stall strip can be handy. Right now all I can do is pray for the families
heartbreak and learn from the lessons hard learned from previous aircraft a
ccidents and my own experiences. Then when appropriate=2C pass on the har
d learned lessons to those who may benefit. Regards to all=2CBud
From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germ
any
Graeme
I was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a slight bump ju
st
under the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose radius is also quite
small=2C
again easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine abrasive round the LE.Accu
rate
templates are essential and the plans version isn't accurate enough for the
se subtle
curves. That's what was wrong with G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing in
a flaps down
stall.
Graham
From: graeme bird <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk>
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday=2C 11 May 2014=2C 18:57
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany
Interesting to hear that you can fly with a flap down=3B but for me a lot i
s going on just after take off=2C watching the gauges=2C the speed the VSI
=2C changing prop pitch=2C unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the le
aver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its
first flight=2C I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudde
n roll at that point.
Yep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions=3B I am just thinking of
the message=2C unintentionally=2C its sending to=0A
current builders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amateur
s and the stall characteristics are one of the first things explored during
the test flights.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188
p=3B -Matt Dralle=2C Libution"=0A
======
=0A
=0A
=0A
============0A
============0A
============0A
============0A
=0A
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Europa-List: Re: Eu ropa crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=C3=BCbec? |
Hey Bud, great posting - one of your best (and they're all good!)
Especially the bit about "aggressive nose down push required to preserve airspeed".
I feel many pilots just DO NOT REALISE THIS!! The subject has been continually
covered since god and man first invented aeroplanes but over 100 years
later the same mistakes get made. Some pilots seem to labour under the misapprehension
that "a 180 degree turn back can be made following an engine out at
(say) 500 feet". Following an engine failure at this sort of height, by the
time the pilot has recognised and responded, the speed will have washed off further.
With the nose now (hopefully) well down speed must be regained to a safe
manoeuvring speed. By this time the plane will just about be at ground level
again. The amount and rate of nose down pitch change and the deck attitude
that will be required to attain and maintain MUST NOT BE UNDERESTIMATED.
Sure it can be demonstrated that FROM AN ALREADY ESTABLISHED AND STABILISED GLIDE
a 180 deg turn can be made with a very small height loss. Some instructors
may demonstrate this but I feel this is a very highly dangerous demonstration
for a student's future if it is in any way linked to engine failure after take
off scenarios.
My comments above relate to ANY aircraft of course and not just the Europa. Nor
in any way am I speculating that my above scenario of attempted turn back is
connected to the very sad German crash.
--------
G-TERN
Classic Mono
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423204#423204
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