Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:40 AM - Re: Re: A-2200 oil leak (Kayberg@aol.com)
2. 05:10 AM - Re: Re: A-2200 oil leak (Lynn Matteson)
3. 05:18 AM - Re: Re: A-2200 oil leak (Lynn Matteson)
4. 05:32 AM - Re: Re: A-2200 oil leak (BobsV35B@aol.com)
5. 12:07 PM - Wiring for the jab 3300 (mosquito56)
6. 12:50 PM - Re: Wiring for the jab 3300 (Rob Turk)
7. 01:37 PM - Re: Wiring for the jab 3300 (Craig Payne)
8. 02:13 PM - Re: Wiring for the jab 3300 (Rob Turk)
9. 05:32 PM - Re: A-2200 oil leak (ces308)
10. 08:51 PM - Re: Wiring for the jab 3300 (mosquito56)
11. 09:10 PM - Re: Re: Wiring for the jab 3300 (Craig Payne)
12. 09:42 PM - Re: Re: A-2200 oil leak (Ivan)
13. 10:50 PM - Re: A-2200 oil leak (ces308)
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| Subject: | Re: A-2200 oil leak |
I changed to multigrade oil too soon on a 2200 and had to go back to
straight oil for 50 hours to get more power and lower oil consumption.
Maybe the factory knows best?
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 6/9/2009 11:42:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
BobsV35B@aol.com writes:
Agreed Keith,
Most shops are still recommending a "break in" oil, but many top shops
have switched over to recommending using multigrade. I was an early adopter
and have been very happy.
I did follow the recommendation to fly it hard right away. Seventy-five
percent or higher with particular effort to keep cylinder pressures high..
I spent many hours as a young aviator slow timing engines. I now believe
that was a major waste of time and I do not think the engines ever ran as
good as do those that we break in hard and early. The slow time and heavy oils
may have been needed fifty to sixty years ago when fits and finish were
not as good as they are today.
My last two certificated engines I even broke in using lean of peak
mixtures. That is a bit trickier because you have to be sure the mixture
distribution to every cylinder is extremely accurate and well balanced, but it
does
work if all the bases are covered.
Unfortunately, I know of no way to do that with a Jabiru. I broke in a
3300 last year, but just used the mixture as it came from the factory. We did
run it hard though and used multi grade oil. In an effort to get it ready
for Sun and Fun, I flew the thing 24 hours in three days! Our son and his
daughter flew off the rest of the time in a couple of days before taking it
to the show.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 6/9/2009 10:10:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
kpickford@xtra.co.nz writes:
Hi Bob
That's interesting - as you say - is it an old wives tail - I believe
Jabiru and Lycoming still recommend straight oil initially. I believed the
reason was that the friction reducing additives would glaze the bores before
the rings were bedded in. I'm certainly no expert on oils, but have had a
good result with aviation multi grade with our variations of temperature
here. And of course we could start another discussion on the best way to break
in a new engine ???
Regards
Keith
--- On Wed, 10/6/09, BobsV35B@aol.com <BobsV35B@aol.com> wrote:
From: BobsV35B@aol.com <BobsV35B@aol.com>
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: A-2200 oil leak
Received: Wednesday, 10 June, 2009, 2:29 PM
Good Evening Keith,
Just out of curiosity, why do you want to use a different oil for break in
than you do for normal use?
Following the recommendation of a local Boutique engine shop owner, I have
broken in my last three engines using multigrade aviation oil. Seemed to
work just fine. They all ran good, broke in fast and seem to be doing just
fine. The rings were fully seated in way less than five hours. The first one
I broke in that way was retired after running eighteen hundred hours
without a cylinder being pulled or any major component needing service. I
think the old mineral oil idea is just an ancient Old Wive's Tale!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 6/9/2009 9:00:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
kpickford@xtra.co.nz writes:
Hi Chris
Only other thought at this stage is don't hurry to change from the
straight (running in) oil if the oil burn has not settled - we have one motor
done
42 hours and haven't changed to the multi grade yet.
Regards
Keith
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| Subject: | Re: A-2200 oil leak |
It sounds like this is a training airplane, perhaps? And it sounds
like you are in the maintenance end of things? That sounds like the
best way to get a lot of experience with Jabiru's, and keep on top of
what is going on with them.
When my rocker bushings went bad...273 hours....I replaced all of
them with plain bushings, no teflon coating, and this took care of
the changing valve lash problem. Now when I do a valve lash check, I
find only a rare valve that is off by one-thousandth or so.
Then when my crankshaft timing gear broke (engine stopped, landed in
a wheat field) I overhauled the whole engine, including new valves
and guides, rings, bearings, and a new crank. I've got about 110
hours on the rebuild.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 672.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46 Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
On Jun 9, 2009, at 9:46 PM, Keith Pickford wrote:
> Hi Lynn
>
> Yes checked them all - the two I replaced were both on number one
> cyl. Will be doing a top overhaul before too long. Went with the
> oil thermostat as we have many people of different experience
> levels flying the aircraft and I wanted to keep it simple.
> Also about to strip a earley hydraulic lifter engine (ser # 2440)
> that needs line boring after 500 hours.
>
> Regards
> Keith
>
> --- On Wed, 10/6/09, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps..net> wrote:
>
> From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: A-2200 oil leak
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Received: Wednesday, 10 June, 2009, 12:37 PM
>
> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Hi Keith-
> Did you look at all the rocker bushings when you did the two? I'm
> surprised only two needed replacing.
>
> I decided against the oil thermostat because of the extra fittings
> involved, and instead installed a butterfly-type valve to regulate
> the air to the oil cooler. It works very well until I forget
> sometimes to open it and that's when I wished I had the 'stat. : )
> I can actually leave it closed all winter long (flying on skis),
> and this gets me into the habit of sometimes forgetting it, but the
> warning light gets my attention.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 672.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46 Wood prop
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Status: flying
> do not archive
>
>
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
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| Subject: | Re: A-2200 oil leak |
I ran my (self) rebuilt engine for 50 hours on Aeroshell mineral oil
as per the Jabiru manual (the oil, not the hours), but was curious as
to why mineral oil, and a local aircraft engine rebuilder, as well as
other local fliers. told me that the rings seat better with no
additives. At least as far as I can tell, my engine is producing more
power now than it did before. Of course, the old rings had more than
double the end gap as the replacement rings, and this would probably
account for a lot of that.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 672.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46 Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
On Jun 10, 2009, at 6:32 AM, Kayberg@aol.com wrote:
> I changed to multigrade oil too soon on a 2200 and had to go back
> to straight oil for 50 hours to get more power and lower oil
> consumption.
>
> Maybe the factory knows best?
>
>
> Doug Koenigsberg
>
>
> In a message dated 6/9/2009 11:42:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> BobsV35B@aol.com writes:
> Agreed Keith,
>
> Most shops are still recommending a "break in" oil, but many top
> shops have switched over to recommending using multigrade. I was an
> early adopter and have been very happy.
>
> I did follow the recommendation to fly it hard right away. Seventy-
> five percent or higher with particular effort to keep cylinder
> pressures high..
>
> I spent many hours as a young aviator slow timing engines. I now
> believe that was a major waste of time and I do not think the
> engines ever ran as good as do those that we break in hard and
> early. The slow time and heavy oils may have been needed fifty to
> sixty years ago when fits and finish were not as good as they are
> today.
>
> My last two certificated engines I even broke in using lean of peak
> mixtures. That is a bit trickier because you have to be sure the
> mixture distribution to every cylinder is extremely accurate and
> well balanced, but it does work if all the bases are covered.
>
> Unfortunately, I know of no way to do that with a Jabiru. I broke
> in a 3300 last year, but just used the mixture as it came from the
> factory. We did run it hard though and used multi grade oil. In an
> effort to get it ready for Sun and Fun, I flew the thing 24 hours
> in three days! Our son and his daughter flew off the rest of the
> time in a couple of days before taking it to the show.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
> In a message dated 6/9/2009 10:10:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> kpickford@xtra.co.nz writes:
> Hi Bob
>
> That's interesting - as you say - is it an old wives tail - I
> believe Jabiru and Lycoming still recommend straight oil initially.
> I believed the reason was that the friction reducing additives
> would glaze the bores before the rings were bedded in. I'm
> certainly no expert on oils, but have had a good result with
> aviation multi grade with our variations of temperature here. And
> of course we could start another discussion on the best way to
> break in a new engine ???
>
> Regards
> Keith
>
> --- On Wed, 10/6/09, BobsV35B@aol.com <BobsV35B@aol.com> wrote:
>
> From: BobsV35B@aol.com <BobsV35B@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: A-2200 oil leak
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Received: Wednesday, 10 June, 2009, 2:29 PM
>
> Good Evening Keith,
>
> Just out of curiosity, why do you want to use a different oil for
> break in than you do for normal use?
>
> Following the recommendation of a local Boutique engine shop owner,
> I have broken in my last three engines using multigrade aviation
> oil. Seemed to work just fine. They all ran good, broke in fast and
> seem to be doing just fine. The rings were fully seated in way less
> than five hours. The first one I broke in that way was retired
> after running eighteen hundred hours without a cylinder being
> pulled or any major component needing service. I think the old
> mineral oil idea is just an ancient Old Wive's Tale!
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
> In a message dated 6/9/2009 9:00:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> kpickford@xtra.co.nz writes:
> Hi Chris
>
> Only other thought at this stage is don't hurry to change from the
> straight (running in) oil if the oil burn has not settled - we have
> one motor done 42 hours and haven't changed to the multi grade yet.
>
> Regards
> Keith
>
> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.ol?redir=http://
> www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%
> 26bcd=JunestepsfooterNO62>See yours in just 2 easy steps!
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| Subject: | Re: A-2200 oil leak |
Good Morning Lynn,
Just goes to show that anecdotal evidence doesn't mean a lot.
I have had much better luck with the engines I broke in using the same oil
I intended to operate them on, but I also now break in engines at a lot
higher cylinder pressures than I did in earlier days.
Times change and I am sure my ideas will change when other evidence
presents itself.
I think your ring gap is most likely the primary cause of any increase in
power!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 6/10/2009 7:18:34 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
lynnmatt@jps.net writes:
--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net
>
I ran my (self) rebuilt engine for 50 hours on Aeroshell mineral oil
as per the Jabiru manual (the oil, not the hours), but was curious as
to why mineral oil, and a local aircraft engine rebuilder, as well as
other local fliers. told me that the rings seat better with no
additives. At least as far as I can tell, my engine is producing more
power now than it did before. Of course, the old rings had more than
double the end gap as the replacement rings, and this would probably
account for a lot of that.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 672.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46 Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
On Jun 10, 2009, at 6:32 AM, Kayberg@aol.com wrote:
> I changed to multigrade oil too soon on a 2200 and had to go back
> to straight oil for 50 hours to get more power and lower oil
> consumption.
>
> Maybe the factory knows best?
>
>
> Doug Koenigsberg
>
>
> In a message dated 6/9/2009 11:42:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> BobsV35B@aol.com writes:
> Agreed Keith,
>
> Most shops are still recommending a "break in" oil, but many top
> shops have switched over to recommending using multigrade. I was an
> early adopter and have been very happy.
>
> I did follow the recommendation to fly it hard right away. Seventy-
> five percent or higher with particular effort to keep cylinder
> pressures high..
>
> I spent many hours as a young aviator slow timing engines. I now
> believe that was a major waste of time and I do not think the
> engines ever ran as good as do those that we break in hard and
> early. The slow time and heavy oils may have been needed fifty to
> sixty years ago when fits and finish were not as good as they are
> today.
>
> My last two certificated engines I even broke in using lean of peak
> mixtures. That is a bit trickier because you have to be sure the
> mixture distribution to every cylinder is extremely accurate and
> well balanced, but it does work if all the bases are covered.
>
> Unfortunately, I know of no way to do that with a Jabiru. I broke
> in a 3300 last year, but just used the mixture as it came from the
> factory. We did run it hard though and used multi grade oil. In an
> effort to get it ready for Sun and Fun, I flew the thing 24 hours
> in three days! Our son and his daughter flew off the rest of the
> time in a couple of days before taking it to the show.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
> In a message dated 6/9/2009 10:10:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> kpickford@xtra.co.nz writes:
> Hi Bob
>
> That's interesting - as you say - is it an old wives tail - I
> believe Jabiru and Lycoming still recommend straight oil initially.
> I believed the reason was that the friction reducing additives
> would glaze the bores before the rings were bedded in. I'm
> certainly no expert on oils, but have had a good result with
> aviation multi grade with our variations of temperature here. And
> of course we could start another discussion on the best way to
> break in a new engine ???
>
> Regards
> Keith
>
> --- On Wed, 10/6/09, BobsV35B@aol.com <BobsV35B@aol.com> wrote:
>
> From: BobsV35B@aol.com <BobsV35B@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Re: A-2200 oil leak
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Received: Wednesday, 10 June, 2009, 2:29 PM
>
> Good Evening Keith,
>
> Just out of curiosity, why do you want to use a different oil for
> break in than you do for normal use?
>
> Following the recommendation of a local Boutique engine shop owner,
> I have broken in my last three engines using multigrade aviation
> oil. Seemed to work just fine. They all ran good, broke in fast and
> seem to be doing just fine. The rings were fully seated in way less
> than five hours. The first one I broke in that way was retired
> after running eighteen hundred hours without a cylinder being
> pulled or any major component needing service. I think the old
> mineral oil idea is just an ancient Old Wive's Tale!
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
> In a message dated 6/9/2009 9:00:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> kpickford@xtra.co.nz writes:
> Hi Chris
>
> Only other thought at this stage is don't hurry to change from the
> straight (running in) oil if the oil burn has not settled - we have
> one motor done 42 hours and haven't changed to the multi grade yet.
>
> Regards
> Keith
>
> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.ol?redir=http://
> www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%
> 26bcd=JunestepsfooterNO62>See yours in just 2 easy steps!
> ist" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?
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> =======================
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| Subject: | Wiring for the jab 3300 |
I am trying to find explanations on the sensors for the 3300. Specifically the
electrical characteristics?
I am trying to wire them up to a microcontroller and some adcs.
Rpm--- will the hall effect work on 5v dc?
Oil pressure and temp--- are they just like the gas level resistor?
Thanks,
Don
--------
Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx
Apologies if I seem antagonistic.
I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions between individuals for assistance
in this thing we call life.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247590#247590
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring for the jab 3300 |
Many hall sensors can be operated on 5V. Here's an example of a gear-tooth
hall sensor datasheet: http://www.hallsensors.de/CYGTS101DC.pdf
As you can see, the sensor requires a pull-up resistor (probably open
collector). Many microcontrollers (eg. Atmel AVR) can be configured to
activate a suitable internal pull-up.
The pressure and temp sensors are variable resistors. If you add a known
pull-up to +5V then you should be able to get a level that an embedded ADC
can process.
Engine environments are truely harsh from an electrical design point of
view. Make sure you design plenty input protection (big spikes, load dumps,
overvoltage, reverse connections, short circuits) on your microcontroller,
or be prepared to see flakey results and blown parts. If at all possible,
avoid direct connections from the microcontroller to the outside world. Use
buffers on input and output. And when you start programming, be defensive.
Check all code paths and all variables for out-of-range values, and provide
some sort of visual "Lost my mind" indication. A watchdog timer can be
helpful too..
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "mosquito56" <mosquito-56@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 9:05 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Wiring for the jab 3300
> <mosquito-56@hotmail.com>
>
> I am trying to find explanations on the sensors for the 3300. Specifically
> the electrical characteristics?
>
> I am trying to wire them up to a microcontroller and some adcs.
>
> Rpm--- will the hall effect work on 5v dc?
> Oil pressure and temp--- are they just like the gas level resistor?
>
> Thanks,
> Don
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| Subject: | Wiring for the jab 3300 |
The RPM Hall effect sensor is not supplied with the engine. Most people with
electronic gauges or EFIS tie into the AC alternator field windings and look
for 6 pulses per revolution (3300).
Oil temp is a NTC resistive device - negative temperature coefficient. As
the temperature goes up the resistance goes down. The pressure sender is a
VDO part where a mechanical slider moves over a resistive element (that is
why they wear out). Look on the VDO site.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
mosquito56
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 1:05 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Wiring for the jab 3300
<mosquito-56@hotmail.com>
I am trying to find explanations on the sensors for the 3300. Specifically
the electrical characteristics?
I am trying to wire them up to a microcontroller and some adcs.
Rpm--- will the hall effect work on 5v dc?
Oil pressure and temp--- are they just like the gas level resistor?
Thanks,
Don
--------
Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx
Apologies if I seem antagonistic.
I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions between individuals for
assistance in this thing we call life.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247590#247590
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring for the jab 3300 |
And to add the caveat here, tying your microcontroller to the AC alternator
is lethal to the chip without proper precaution. If you really want to do
that, take a look at the signal with a scope to see what hostile signal
comes from the alternator.. Set scope for 20V per division...
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 10:26 PM
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Wiring for the jab 3300
> <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
> The RPM Hall effect sensor is not supplied with the engine. Most people
> with
> electronic gauges or EFIS tie into the AC alternator field windings and
> look
> for 6 pulses per revolution (3300).
>
> Oil temp is a NTC resistive device - negative temperature coefficient. As
> the temperature goes up the resistance goes down. The pressure sender is a
> VDO part where a mechanical slider moves over a resistive element (that is
> why they wear out). Look on the VDO site.
>
> -- Craig
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> mosquito56
> Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 1:05 PM
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Wiring for the jab 3300
>
> <mosquito-56@hotmail.com>
>
> I am trying to find explanations on the sensors for the 3300. Specifically
> the electrical characteristics?
>
> I am trying to wire them up to a microcontroller and some adcs.
>
> Rpm--- will the hall effect work on 5v dc?
> Oil pressure and temp--- are they just like the gas level resistor?
>
> Thanks,
> Don
>
> --------
> Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx
> Apologies if I seem antagonistic.
> I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions between individuals
> for
> assistance in this thing we call life.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247590#247590
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: A-2200 oil leak |
What kind of temps are you guys running cht/egt ?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247627#247627
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring for the jab 3300 |
Hmm, hall efffect not supplied? What is that a $2 transistor. I saw a pic with
the sensor installed on a Jab site. I ass-u-me-d that it was supplied.
I assume there is a mount for it on the engine?????
Thanx for all the pullup and protection advice. I will definetely be taking it
all to heart.
Glad to hear everything is just pots, the oil temp and pressure.
What is a vdo?
I hope to open my engine box next week and am beginning to plan for the microcontroller.
Don
--------
Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx
Apologies if I seem antagonistic.
I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions between individuals for assistance
in this thing we call life.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247649#247649
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring for the jab 3300 |
VDO is the German maker of senders and gauges.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
mosquito56
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 9:51 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: Wiring for the jab 3300
<mosquito-56@hotmail.com>
Hmm, hall efffect not supplied? What is that a $2 transistor. I saw a pic
with the sensor installed on a Jab site. I ass-u-me-d that it was supplied.
I assume there is a mount for it on the engine?????
Thanx for all the pullup and protection advice. I will definetely be taking
it all to heart.
Glad to hear everything is just pots, the oil temp and pressure.
What is a vdo?
I hope to open my engine box next week and am beginning to plan for the
microcontroller.
Don
--------
Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx
Apologies if I seem antagonistic.
I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions between individuals for
assistance in this thing we call life.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247649#247649
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| Subject: | Re: A-2200 oil leak |
As you know CHT's largely depend on the fuselage, cowling and aircraft which
all regulate airflow over the cylinders. EGT's depend on mixture.
It looks like you have a challenger?
Anyway at 8500ft, cruise power , 3300A engine, I get a range of 250-290 CHT
and EGT's of 1340-1392. Thus I have no great spread from front to back and
right to left.
Ivan
----- Original Message -----
From: "ces308" <ces308@ldaco.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 5:31 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Re: A-2200 oil leak
>
> What kind of temps are you guys running cht/egt ?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247627#247627
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: A-2200 oil leak |
My 2200 today...a 70* day at 2500ft had an oil temp of 198-212 and a cht of 230
and egt of 1240-1290 at 2800 rpm.
On another note what about the vent hole I have read about to be drilled in the
rear valve covers ?? Is this necessary? the engine is on a Kolb Mark 3 Xtra.
chris ambrose
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247655#247655
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