KIS-List Digest Archive

Fri 08/09/13


Total Messages Posted: 13



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 07:16 AM - Re: SV: TR-1 Nose gear leg - again (mark_trickel)
     2. 07:22 AM - Re: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox? (Robert Reed)
     3. 08:00 AM - Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox? (mark_trickel)
     4. 09:21 AM - Re: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox? (Scott Stearns)
     5. 10:28 AM - Re: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox? (Robert Reed)
     6. 10:37 AM - Re: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox? (Alfred Rosa)
     7. 11:01 AM - Re: Re: SV: TR-1 Nose gear leg - again (Scott Stearns)
     8. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox? (Robert Reed)
     9. 12:17 PM - Re: Re: SV: TR-1 Nose gear leg - again (Alfred Rosa)
    10. 01:38 PM - Re: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox? (Owen Baker)
    11. 01:55 PM - Re: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox? (Mark Kettering)
    12. 02:04 PM - Re: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox? (Robert Reed)
    13. 02:11 PM - Re: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox? (Robert Reed)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 07:16:50 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: SV: TR-1 Nose gear leg - again
    From: "mark_trickel" <marktrickel@gmail.com>
    Hello Hans, I am not so sure I would be so quick to edit your KIS Pilot Handbook. TR-1(Lyc.O-235 powered) builder Ken P. has flown his aircraft more than 1000 hours off a grass strip in front of his house. He moved the main gear forward, extended the elevator, and has had great success. Unfortunately his daughter recently banged the nose gear and he is currently working on that and giving it a new paint job while it is down for repairs. He considered upgrading to the heavier nose gear but that would require re-engineering the firewall, a process he wants to avoid. I know there are a bunch of nose gears not being used out there somewhere but I am having trouble finding about 45 TR-1 kits. Should you be considering the heavier nose gear, Texan TR-4 builder Dennis F. recently had Lyle build a gear for him and the cost was $2800.00 U.S. dollars. The TR-1 version would probably be similar in price. Maybe I should add a few new columns to the KIS builders and owners list Nose Gear Type, Main Gear position, and Elevator mod. Mark T. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406313#406313


    Message 2


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    Time: 07:22:09 AM PST US
    From: Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net>
    Subject: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox?
    Scott,=0A-=0AI put the oil cooler on the firewall with a feed from the pr essure cowling behind #3 cylinder.- If that doesn't prove adequate I will put an NACA inlet on side of cowling to pickup the air and block off the c urrent outlet.- I am really thinking it will be enough but if there are i ssues they will probably be in providing enough exits for the air.- I am not planning on putting the cowling extensions below the fuselage as was do ne on some planes for appearance since I believe they will restrict the air going out.- I think it will look just fine with the way the exhaust syst em will flow under the fuselage.- If necessary I could put a lip on the b ottom to help produce a low pressure area.=0A-=0AI also remember seeing s ome adjustable louvered cowl vents but darned if I can remember who had the m.- I got my louvers from Aircraft Specialty LLC, a small specialty shop producing parts for various aircraft.- They only cost $16 each and they o ffer a service to custom fabricate the louvers to your specifications.- T hey could probably produce the cockpit adjustable louvers without too much trouble.- They also do hoses and power cables to order.-- http://www. aircraftspecialty.com/index.html=0A-=0ABob Reed=0A =0A=0A________________ ________________=0A From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>=0ATo: "kis-li st@matronics.com" <kis-list@matronics.com> =0ASent: Friday, August 9, 2013 1:08 AM=0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Re: How long does it take to build an thro ttle body airbox?=0A =0A=0A=0AHi Bob,=0A=0AI forgot you had the FADEC engi ne. -I had major cooling problems with my 360 in the TR-1. -I have the 4 into 1 tuned exhaust and it does take up a big chunk of the exit area. -I opened up the inlets and exit by 50% and went from a 6 row to a 10 row oil cooler. -Cooling is good now but it was a long road. - If your eng ine is set up to spray oil on the back of the pistons like mine is then I w ould recommend the 10 row oil cooler. -It just fits on the vans baffles i f you make the hole bigger.=0A=0ASomewhere I saw a louvered cowl vent that was cockpit adjustable for airflow, but now I cant find it. Have you seen a nything like that? -=0A=0AScott=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Aug 8, 2013, at 11:06 PM , Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net> wrote:=0A=0A=0AScott,=0A>-=0A>The thro ttle body is just an air control unit which in my mind should be shorter bu t the dual sensors for manifold pressure and temperature required for the F ADEC system take up a large portion of the height.- The blue tape is cove ring the mounts for the censors in the photo.- They also protrude out sev eral inches from the throttle body not including the wiring.- I looked at the filtered air box from Vans.- Another builder on the field has one an d I looked at the measurements and they would have required me to also cut the bottom out of the cowling.- I might have been able to use the Vans sc oop but it would have required almost as much surgery on the cowling.- Th e main difference though is going to come down to cost.- When I am done t he total cost for the air box, scoop, and modifications will be about $75 v s several hundred for any other option.- Cost in time should be about the same overall.=0A>-=0A>I did get the baffle kit from Vans and you are rig ht, it was a great starting point and saved considerable time.- I used it to create a pressure cowling shown in the photo.- Used piano hinges to p rovide quick easy access.- My concern living in Texas is getting maximum cooling to the engine which is why I am using a pressure cowling along with vents-on the side of the cowling.- I am still concerned about getting enough air through the engine with the use of 4 into 1 exhaust.- I am a b it concerned the exhaust system will block the air from the rear of the cow ling.- I am hoping I will have enough air flow.=0A>-=0A>Bob=0A>-=0A> =0A> =0A>=0A>________________________________=0A> From: Scott Stearns <sste arns2@yahoo.com>=0A>To: "kis-list@matronics.com" <kis-list@matronics.com> =0A>Sent: Thursday, August 8, 2013 10:02 PM=0A>Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: H ow long does it take to build an throttle body airbox?=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>I u sed the airbox, air scoop, and baffle kit from vans on my airplane. -I ha d to modify them in places and graft the scoop onto the existing cowl, but it was a great starting point. -The baffle kit saves tons of time.=0A>=0A >=0A>http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1376017121-472-6 &browse=engines=0A>=0A>=0A>Why is the throttle body so long? -mine is h alf that long...=0A>=0A>=0A>Scott=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On Aug 8, 2013, at 3:2 0 PM, Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net> wrote:=0A>=0A>=0A>Al,=0A>>-=0A>>Th e air box ended up an inch below the bottom of the cowling before I started with the connection-to the scoop.- I was able to bring that up a littl e and keep the bottom aligned with the bottom of the cowling.- The air in let-extended the connection forward even further below the original cowli ng shape.- The current layup gives me some wiggle room to shape it and cu t it back some but my main goal was to keep the smooth flow.- What you se e right now is a lot of extra foam that will be cut away as the shape is de veloped.- The attached photo shows the basic shape that I am going for an d that will transition into the existing cowling-shape as much as possibl e.- =0A>>-=0A>>Please let me finish it before you start labeling it a s team locomotive.=0A>>-=0A>>BOB=0A>>=0A>> =0A>>=0A>>______________________ __________=0A>> From: Alfred Rosa <fredorosa@gmail.com>=0A>>To: kisbuilders <kis-list@matronics.com> =0A>>Sent: Thursday, August 8, 2013 1:40 PM=0A>>S ubject: Re: KIS-List: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body a irbox?=0A>> =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Bob,=0A>>I'm sure that will be an efficient air scoop but the front of your plane is beginning to resemble a locomotive ra ther than a streamlined airplane. -Couldn't the scoop be curved upward an d follow the the cowling shape somewhat? -Just a thought from a retired i ndustrial designer. =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Al-=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 12:15 PM, Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net> wrote:=0A>>=0A>>Mark,=0A >>>- =0A>>>Looks like you had a great trip, wish I had been there, looks great.=0A>>>-=0A>>>Regarding the fuel tank....Good luck with that.- I h ave NO idea how to fix except sand and try to recoat with Jeffcoat or somet hing.- The flaking looks really bad and I wonder if the second bay is as bad.- Makes me want to scope out mine before I go any further. =0A>>>- =0A>>>The flap hinge doesn't look too bad from the photo but may need repla cement if binding.=0A>>>-=0A>>>The hole in the wing looks like a reverse construction process.- Layup two or three ply flat sheet of fiberglass wi th peel ply on one side to make good bonding surface.- Fit the sheet to t he inside of the wing hole and bond all the way around.- Fill in the midd le with foam and bond to the inside skin.- Finally, glass over the outsid e-and flair into existing skin.- The result should be just as strong as the original skin if not a bit more so. =0A>>>=0A>>>Sounds so easy doesn't it?- The devil is always in the details though.- =0A>>>=0A>>>I am havi ng to do much the same operation on the cowling trying to fabricate an air scoop.- It sure looks funny in the intermediate stages but I am hopeful t he final result won't look quite so odd.- It would have looked a lot bett er if I has used the same color foam.- I will try to get back to it this weekend-and start the shaping with a rasp and sandpaper.- I figure it w ill take a couple of weekends to shape it, fill it, shape it some more, fil l it some more, and then start the glass work.--Followed by-more sand ing, filling, and repeat until sick of it.- The foam I am using can-eas ily be shaped, filled with epoxy micro mix for a bondable surface and then -be dissolved with Acetone when finished.- It won't look pretty on the inside but I can live with that.- I am doing it all in place to make sure the air inlet is properly positioned for the air box attachment. =0A>>>=0A >>>It is hard to see from the photos but the underside is a flat sheet of 4 -ply fiberglass that I fabricated for some other parts that I cut to form t he bottom of the scoop and cowling.- I used pop rivets and bonded- (bel t and suspenders) it to the existing cowling bottom.- When it took the ro unded shape it carried it forward to help flair into the existing-contour s.- I will post additional photos of the process and the completed-cowl ing.- (BUT ONLY IF IT COMES OUT LOOKING RIGHT)=0A>>>=0A>>>Bob Reed=0A>>>M aking slow but steady progress.=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>> From: mark_tr ickel <marktrickel@gmail.com>S=0A>>>To: kis-list@matronics.com =0A>>>Sent: Thursday, August 8, 2013 10:26 AM=0A>>>Subject: KIS-List: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox?=0A>>> =0A>>>=0A>>>--> KIS-List m essage posted by: "mark_trickel" <marktrickel@gmail.com>=0A>>>=0A>>>Hello R obert,=0A>>>=0A>>>I just return from a wilderness canoe camping trip in New York's Adirondack Park to find you have overcome yet another problem. I li ke your idea of ducting cabin heat off the airbox intake. I also know how h ard it is to work in extreme heat and humidity conditions. My dad and I reb uilt an Ercoupe and when we brought it back to the hanger to finish it off over a couple of summers the heat inside the back tar coated roof was unbea rable no matter how early we arrived to work on the airplane. I hope I have as good as results as you when it comes to solving some of my dilemmas. I have attached a few pics of a couple of things I need to address:=0A>>>=0A> >>Underside of wing-the scrap on the right is from the time Ken ran over th e runway light at Oshkosh. The scrap on the left=0A from the hole in the ta nk is from Kens last flight when he hit a fence post, maybe a result of the tail being cut off. The way hole is cut in is a lesson on how not to prepa re to patch a laminated composite structure.=0A>>>=0A>>>Flap hinge-as the a irplane rolled over the fence post it caught on the flap hinge and bent it. The wing came to rest on the post about a foot out board on the flap. That gouge has been patched.=0A>>>=0A>>>Inside the slosh tank-Ken took a differ ent tack on the fuel tanks, they do not have to standard flapper system to close the tank, it has some kind of metal ball in a track that seals off th e tank. He also did not coat the tank with the prescribed two coats of resi n he used a slosh compound. A cool idea but after 20 years it is peeling of in areas like the tank filler and bottom fuel tester drain where the resin is real smooth from gluing in these parts.=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Re ad this topic online=0A here:=0A>>>=0A>>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewto pic.php?p=406238#406238=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Attachments: =0A>>> =0A>>>http://forums.matronics.com//files/bog_river_to_lows_lake_173.jpg=0A> >>http://forums.matronics.com//files/km3_slosh_tank_599.jpg=0A>>>http://for ums.matronics.com//files/km3_flap_hinge_123.jpg=0A>>>http://forums.matronic s.com//files/km3_wing_392.jpg=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A> >>=0A>>> =0A>> =0A>>http://www.matronics.com/contri======= ======== =0A>>=0A>> =0A><ESMSPITF-89F-47.jpg> =0A>http:// www.matronics.c==================/ =0A> ====


    Message 3


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    Time: 08:00:01 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox?
    From: "mark_trickel" <marktrickel@gmail.com>
    Hey Robert, Attached is a pic of the locomotion end of Scotts - King of all KISes. It shows the RV scoop and how he blended it onto the stock cowling. The part is about 80 bucks, but would remove the individuality that you have expressed in your build so far. I must say Robert when I look through the pics of your build your level of quality and innovation is first class. When Ken McCormick built the airplane I have he spent 500 hours to complete the airframe. When I look at yours I see more than 500 hours in the cockpit alone. Keep on Cruisin. Thanks everybody for you input on my fuel tank situation. One thing I should have mentioned is it was fueled with auto gas. But it only flew about one year and there appears to be no damage or any signs of leaking, plus all the fuel leaked out of that big hole anyway. I plan to check the tanks out thoroughly with some kind of bore scope. I hate the idea of cutting holes in the wing but I will do what I must. Mark K how about this idea, if I cant use the existing tanks-use the wing tips from the last rib outward and maybe make longer wing tips? Mark T. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406317#406317 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/scotts_tr_1c_cowling_138.jpg


    Message 4


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    Time: 09:21:53 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox?
    From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>
    Hey Mark, Harbor freight has a cheapish camera on a flexible arm thing. Works pretty well. Be sure to find a 20% off coupon. They call it a digital inspection camera. Scott On Aug 9, 2013, at 9:59 AM, "mark_trickel" <marktrickel@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hey Robert, > > Attached is a pic of the locomotion end of Scotts - King of all KISes. It shows the RV scoop and how he blended it onto the stock cowling. The part is about 80 bucks, but would remove the individuality that you have expressed in your build so far. I must say Robert when I look through the pics of your build your level of quality and innovation is first class. When Ken McCormick built the airplane I have he spent 500 hours to complete the airframe. When I look at yours I see more than 500 hours in the cockpit alone. Keep on Cruisin. > > Thanks everybody for you input on my fuel tank situation. One thing I should have mentioned is it was fueled with auto gas. But it only flew about one year and there appears to be no damage or any signs of leaking, plus all the fuel leaked out of that big hole anyway. I plan to check the tanks out thoroughly with some kind of bore scope. I hate the idea of cutting holes in the wing but I will do what I must. Mark K how about this idea, if I cant use the existing tanks-use the wing tips from the last rib outward and maybe make longer wing tips? > > Mark T. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406317#406317 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/scotts_tr_1c_cowling_138.jpg > > > > > > >


    Message 5


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    Time: 10:28:49 AM PST US
    From: Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net>
    Subject: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox?
    Mark,=0A=C2-=0AThanks so much for your encouraging comments.=C2- I will say though that the individuality, innovation, and sometimes quality are a ll great but I am past the point where I just want it finished and flying. =C2- As you mentioned, all those innovations took a lot of time both from planning and construction.=C2- Were I to go back and be able to do it al l again, there would not be as many innovations or individuality in this pl ane AND it would be flying by now.=0A=C2-=0AAs to the fuel tanks, I alway s felt that our wings were built upside down when they should have been bui lt top side up but I do understand some of the reasoning behind it.=C2- T he peeling shown on your photos really looks serious from both contaminatio n and lamination standpoint.=C2- Have you detected any fuel penetration i nto the foam core of the wing?=C2- Other than cleaning and adding more la mination followed by Jeffcoat, I have no suggestions.=C2- =0A=C2-=0ABob =0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: mark_trickel <marktrick el@gmail.com>=0ATo: kis-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Friday, August 9, 2013 9:59 AM=0ASubject: KIS-List: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle ktrickel@gmail.com>=0A=0AHey Robert,=0A=0AAttached is a pic of the =9Clocomotion=9D end of Scott=99s - King of all KISes. It shows the RV scoop and how he blended it onto the stock cowling. The part is abo ut 80 bucks, but would remove the individuality that you have expressed in your build so far. I must say Robert when I look through the pics of your b uild your level of quality and innovation is first class. When Ken McCormic k built the airplane I have he spent 500 hours to complete the airframe. Wh en I look at yours I see more than 500 hours in the cockpit alone. Keep on Cruisin=99.=0A=0AThanks everybody for you input on my fuel tank situa tion. One thing I should have mentioned is it was fueled with auto gas. But it only flew about one year and there appears to be no damage or any signs of leaking, plus all the fuel leaked out of that big hole anyway. I plan t o check the tanks out thoroughly with some kind of bore scope. I hate the i dea of cutting holes in the wing but I will do what I must. Mark K =93 how about this idea, if I can=99t use the existing tanks-use the wing tips from the last rib outward and maybe make longer wing tips?=0A=0AM ark T.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matron ics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406317#406317=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AAttachments: =0A=0Aht tp://forums.matronics.com//files/scotts_tr_1c_cowling_138.jpg=0A=0A=0A=0A ==C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ==C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-


    Message 6


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    Time: 10:37:30 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox?
    From: Alfred Rosa <fredorosa@gmail.com>
    Bob, With me it has become the journey rather than the destination. Al Sent from my iPhone On Aug 9, 2013, at 1:28 PM, Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net> wrote: > Mark, > > Thanks so much for your encouraging comments. I will say though that the i ndividuality, innovation, and sometimes quality are all great but I am past t he point where I just want it finished and flying. As you mentioned, all th ose innovations took a lot of time both from planning and construction. Wer e I to go back and be able to do it all again, there would not be as many in novations or individuality in this plane AND it would be flying by now. > > As to the fuel tanks, I always felt that our wings were built upside down w hen they should have been built top side up but I do understand some of the r easoning behind it. The peeling shown on your photos really looks serious f rom both contamination and lamination standpoint. Have you detected any fue l penetration into the foam core of the wing? Other than cleaning and addin g more lamination followed by Jeffcoat, I have no suggestions. > > Bob > > From: mark_trickel <marktrickel@gmail.com> > To: kis-list@matronics.com > Sent: Friday, August 9, 2013 9:59 AM > Subject: KIS-List: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body air box? > > > Hey Robert, > > Attached is a pic of the =9Clocomotion=9D end of Scott=99 s - King of all KISes. It shows the RV scoop and how he blended it onto the s tock cowling. The part is about 80 bucks, but would remove the individuality that you have expressed in your build so far. I must say Robert when I look through the pics of your build your level of quality and innovation is firs t class. When Ken McCormick built the airplane I have he spent 500 hours to c omplete the airframe. When I look at yours I see more than 500 hours in the c ockpit alone. Keep on Cruisin=99. > > Thanks everybody for you input on my fuel tank situation. One thing I shou ld have mentioned is it was fueled with auto gas. But it only flew about one year and there appears to be no damage or any signs of leaking, plus all th e fuel leaked out of that big hole anyway. I plan to check the tanks out tho roughly with some kind of bore scope. I hate the idea of cutting holes in th e wing but I will do what I must. Mark K =93 how about this idea, if I can=99t use the existing tanks-use the wing tips from the last rib ou tward and maybe make longer wing tips? > > Mark T. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406317#406317 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/scotts_tr_1c_cowling_138.jpg > > > > ; -Matt Dral============ > > > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= >


    Message 7


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    Time: 11:01:41 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: SV: TR-1 Nose gear leg - again
    From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>
    Or just convert it to a taildragger! Scott On Aug 9, 2013, at 9:16 AM, "mark_trickel" <marktrickel@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hello Hans, > > I am not so sure I would be so quick to edit your KIS Pilot Handbook. TR-1(Lyc.O-235 powered) builder Ken P. has flown his aircraft more than 1000 hours off a grass strip in front of his house. He moved the main gear forward, extended the elevator, and has had great success. Unfortunately his daughter recently banged the nose gear and he is currently working on that and giving it a new paint job while it is down for repairs. He considered upgrading to the heavier nose gear but that would require re-engineering the firewall, a process he wants to avoid. I know there are a bunch of nose gears not being used out there somewhere but I am having trouble finding about 45 TR-1 kits. Should you be considering the heavier nose gear, Texan TR-4 builder Dennis F. recently had Lyle build a gear for him and the cost was $2800.00 U.S. dollars. The TR-1 version would probably be similar in price. Maybe I should add a few new columns to the KIS builders and owners list Nose Gear Type, M! > ain Gear position, and Elevator mod. > > Mark T. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406313#406313 > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 11:53:29 AM PST US
    From: Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net>
    Subject: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox?
    Al,=0A=C2-=0AUnderstood, but I would eventually like to get there and the n start on another while still flying this one.=C2- =0A=C2-=0AI have be en thinking about building some of the pedal planes as my keep busy work af ter retiring (like that is ever going to happen...4 1/2 years I HOPE!) but would consider=C2-a wood and fabric plane project too or maybe a LSA of s ome type.=C2- =0A=C2-=0ABOB=0A =0A=0A________________________________ =0A From: Alfred Rosa <fredorosa@gmail.com>=0ATo: "kis-list@matronics.com" <kis-list@matronics.com> =0ASent: Friday, August 9, 2013 12:37 PM=0ASubject : Re: KIS-List: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox? =0A =0A=0A=0ABob,=0AWith me it has become the journey rather than the dest ination.=C2-=0AAl=0A=0ASent from my iPhone=0A=0AOn Aug 9, 2013, at 1:28 P M, Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net> wrote:=0A=0A=0AMark,=0A>=C2-=0A>Thank s so much for your encouraging comments.=C2- I will say though that the i ndividuality, innovation, and sometimes quality are all great but I am past the point where I just want it finished and flying.=C2- As you mentioned , all those innovations took a lot of time both from planning and construct ion.=C2- Were I to go back and be able to do it all again, there would no t be as many innovations or individuality in this plane AND it would be fly ing by now.=0A>=C2-=0A>As to the fuel tanks, I always felt that our wings were built upside down when they should have been built top side up but I do understand some of the reasoning behind it.=C2- The peeling shown on y our photos really looks serious from both contamination and lamination stan dpoint.=C2- Have you detected any fuel penetration into the foam core of the wing?=C2- Other than cleaning and adding more lamination followed by Jeffcoat, I have no suggestions.=C2- =0A>=C2-=0A>Bob=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>__ ______________________________=0A> From: mark_trickel <marktrickel@gmail.co m>=0A>To: kis-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Friday, August 9, 2013 9:59 AM =0A>Subject: KIS-List: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body ickel@gmail.com>=0A>=0A>Hey Robert,=0A>=0A>Attached is a pic of the =9Clocomotion=9D end of Scott=99s - King of all KISes. It shows the RV scoop and how he blended it onto the stock cowling. The part is abo ut 80 bucks, but would remove the individuality that you have expressed in your build so far. I must say Robert when I look through the pics of your b uild your level of quality and innovation is first class. When Ken McCormic k built the airplane I have he spent 500 hours to complete the airframe. Wh en I look at yours I see more than 500 hours in the cockpit alone. Keep on Cruisin=99.=0A>=0A>Thanks everybody for you input on my fuel tank sit uation. One thing I should have mentioned is it was fueled with auto gas. B ut it only flew about one year and there appears to be no damage or any sig ns of leaking, plus all=0A the fuel leaked out of that big hole anyway. I p lan to check the tanks out thoroughly with some kind of bore scope. I hate the idea of cutting holes in the wing but I will do what I must. Mark K =93 how about this idea, if I can=99t use the existing tanks-use t he wing tips from the last rib outward and maybe make longer wing tips?=0A> =0A>Mark T.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A>http://f orums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406317#406317=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Atta chments: =0A>=0A>http://forums.matro============= =========; =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2 - =C2- =C2- -Matt Dral==============0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>================== ==================0A//www.matronics.com/N avigator?KIS-List=================== ================ cs.com ====== ==== matronics.com/contribution=0A=========== ======================== ==============


    Message 9


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    Time: 12:17:45 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: SV: TR-1 Nose gear leg - again
    From: Alfred Rosa <fredorosa@gmail.com>
    I'm sure the 2,800. price tag on the Lyle built nosegear was for a complete gear with all the attachments. All Hans needs is a bent tube of heavier gauge that can be fabricated locally. Al On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Or just convert it to a taildragger! > > Scott > > > On Aug 9, 2013, at 9:16 AM, "mark_trickel" <marktrickel@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Hello Hans, > > > > I am not so sure I would be so quick to edit your KIS Pilot Handbook. > TR-1(Lyc.O-235 powered) builder Ken P. has flown his aircraft more than > 1000 hours off a grass strip in front of his house. He moved the main gea r > forward, extended the elevator, and has had great success. Unfortunately > his daughter recently banged the nose gear and he is currently working on > that and giving it a new paint job while it is down for repairs. He > considered upgrading to the heavier nose gear but that would require > re-engineering the firewall, a process he wants to avoid. I know there ar e > a bunch of nose gears not being used out there somewhere but I am having > trouble finding about 45 TR-1 kits. Should you be considering the heavier > nose gear, Texan TR-4 builder Dennis F. recently had Lyle build a gear fo r > him and the cost was $2800.00 U.S. dollars. The TR-1 version would probab ly > be similar in price. Maybe I should add a few new columns to the KIS > builders and owners list =93 Nose Gear ! > Type, M! > > ain Gear position, and Elevator mod. > > > > Mark T. > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406313#406313 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > >


    Message 10


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    Time: 01:38:05 PM PST US
    From: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox?
    8/9/2013 Hello Robert Reed, You wrote: =9C..... the dual sensors for manifold pressure and temperature required for the FADEC system take up a large portion of the height.=9D 1) Lycoming has actually fielded engines with a FADEC (Full Authority Digital Engine Control) system? What engine models? 2) Why would not a FADEC system take advantage of / require fuel injection? Thanks, OC ===== From: Robert Reed Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 12:06 AM Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox? Scott, The throttle body is just an air control unit which in my mind should be shorter but the dual sensors for manifold pressure and temperature required for the FADEC system take up a large portion of the height. The blue tape is covering the mounts for the censors in the photo. They also protrude out several inches from the throttle body not including the wiring. I looked at the filtered air box from Vans. Another builder on the field has one and I looked at the measurements and they would have required me to also cut the bottom out of the cowling. I might have been able to use the Vans scoop but it would have required almost as much surgery on the cowling. The main difference though is going to come down to cost. When I am done the total cost for the air box, scoop, and modifications will be about $75 vs several hundred for any other option. Cost in time should be about the same overall. I did get the baffle kit from Vans and you are right, it was a great starting point and saved considerable time. I used it to create a pressure cowling shown in the photo. Used piano hinges to provide quick easy access. My concern living in Texas is getting maximum cooling to the engine which is why I am using a pressure cowling along with vents on the side of the cowling. I am still concerned about getting enough air through the engine with the use of 4 into 1 exhaust. I am a bit concerned the exhaust system will block the air from the rear of the cowling. I am hoping I will have enough air flow. Bob


    Message 11


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    Time: 01:55:47 PM PST US
    From: Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox?
    Mark T and Scott, Walmart also has them if you do not have a HF local. Another type you can get on ebay for about $13 to $30 has a USB connector and you need to plug into a computer or tablet (with master USB) for the display. I prefer the USB bore scopes due to the larger screen on the computer and the freedom of the long cable. Mark K -----Original Message----- >From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com> >Sent: Aug 9, 2013 12:21 PM >To: "kis-list@matronics.com" <kis-list@matronics.com> >Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox? > > >Hey Mark, > >Harbor freight has a cheapish camera on a flexible arm thing. Works pretty well. Be sure to find a 20% off coupon. They call it a digital inspection camera. > >Scott > > >On Aug 9, 2013, at 9:59 AM, "mark_trickel" <marktrickel@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> Hey Robert, >> >> Attached is a pic of the locomotion end of Scotts - King of all KISes. It shows the RV scoop and how he blended it onto the stock cowling. The part is about 80 bucks, but would remove the individuality that you have expressed in your build so far. I must say Robert when I look through the pics of your build your level of quality and innovation is first class. When Ken McCormick built the airplane I have he spent 500 hours to complete the airframe. When I look at yours I see more than 500 hours in the cockpit alone. Keep on Cruisin. >> >> Thanks everybody for you input on my fuel tank situation. One thing I should have mentioned is it was fueled with auto gas. But it only flew about one year and there appears to be no damage or any signs of leaking, plus all the fuel leaked out of that big hole anyway. I plan to check the tanks out thoroughly with some kind of bore scope. I hate the idea of cutting holes in the wing but I will do what I must. Mark K how about this idea, if I cant use the existing tanks-use the wing tips from the last rib outward and maybe make longer wing tips? >> >> Mark T. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406317#406317 >> >> >> >> >> Attachments: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/scotts_tr_1c_cowling_138.jpg >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >


    Message 12


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    Time: 02:04:05 PM PST US
    From: Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net>
    Subject: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox?
    Owen,=0A=C2-=0AI am using the Superior IOF-360 engine with the Aerosance (Continental) FADEC system.=C2- I understand that Lycoming has now come o ut with their own version of the FADEC but I don't have any details on it. =C2- I just happened to see it while reading another article.=0A=C2-=0A The censors are on either side of the throttle body which ONLY controls the air flow and not the fuel flow.=C2- Fuel is directly injected into the e ngine with injectors that are electronically controlled on each injector. =C2- They use a magnetic coil system that triggers the fuel valve in the injector for a measured fuel flow.=C2- Almost everything having to do wit h the FADEC is totally redundant.=C2- There are two fuel pressure sensors , two intake manifold pressure and temperature sensors, two electrical syst ems, and too many wires to keep track of.=C2- As a result, I will end up with a=C2-dual electrical system including two batteries and two alternat ors.=C2- The electrical system is a version of Bob Nuckolls Z-14 Dual Bat tery / Dual Alternator modified for the FADEC.=0A=C2-=0AHave a great day, =0A=C2-=0ABOB=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Owen Bak er <bakerocb@cox.net>=0ATo: kis-list@matronics.com; REED ROBERT <robertr237 @att.net> =0ASent: Friday, August 9, 2013 3:37 PM=0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox?=0A =0A=0A=0A8/ 9/2013 =0A=0AHello Robert Reed, You wrote: =9C..... the dual sensors for manifold pressure and temperature =0Arequired for the FADEC system take up a large portion of the =0Aheight.=9D =0A=C2- =0A1) Lycoming has actually fielded =0Aengines with a FADEC (Full Authority Digital Engine Co ntrol) system? What engine =0Amodels? =0A=C2- =0A2) Why would not a FADEC system take =0Aadvantage of / require fuel injection? =0A=C2- =0AThanks, =0A=C2- =0AOC =0A=C2- =0A=============== ================ =0A=C2- =0AFrom: Robert Reed =0ASent: Friday, August 09, 2013 12:06 AM =0ATo: kis-list@matronics.c om =0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Re: How long does it take to build an =0Athro ttle body airbox? =0A Scott, =0A=C2- =0AThe throttle body is just an air control unit which in my mind should =0Abe shorter but the dual sensors for manifold pressure and temperature required =0Afor the FADEC system take up a large portion of the height.=C2- The blue tape =0Ais covering the moun ts for the censors in the photo.=C2- They also protrude =0Aout several in ches from the throttle body not including the wiring.=C2- I =0Alooked at the filtered air box from Vans.=C2- Another builder on the field has =0Ao ne and I looked at the measurements and they would have required me to also cut =0Athe bottom out of the cowling.=C2- I might have been able to use the Vans =0Ascoop but it would have required almost as much surgery on the cowling.=C2- =0AThe main difference though is going to come down to cost. =C2- When I am done =0Athe total cost for the air box, scoop, and modific ations will be about $75 vs =0Aseveral hundred for any other option.=C2- Cost in time should be about the =0Asame overall. =0A=C2- =0AI did get th e baffle kit from Vans and you are right, it was a great =0Astarting point and saved considerable time.=C2- I used it to create a pressure =0Acowlin g shown in the photo.=C2- Used piano hinges to provide quick easy =0Aacce ss.=C2- My concern living in Texas is getting maximum cooling to the =0Ae ngine which is why I am using a pressure cowling along with vents on the si de =0Aof the cowling.=C2- I am still concerned about getting enough air t hrough the =0Aengine with the use of 4 into 1 exhaust.=C2- I am a bit con cerned the exhaust =0Asystem will block the air from the rear of the cowlin g.=C2- I am hoping I will =0Ahave enough air flow. =0A=C2- =0ABob =0A ====================


    Message 13


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    Time: 02:11:50 PM PST US
    From: Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net>
    Subject: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox?
    I bought the bore scope from HF and it is satisfactory for most purposes. =C2- It would work great for the tank inspections and worked OK for the i nspection of my cylinder heads.=C2- The unit has a flexible neck and the camera head with light is just barely small enough to fit into the spark pl ug opening.=C2- The only problem I had was that it isn't as flexible as I would have liked and the focus isn't adjustable.=C2- The unit that my AP used last week was much smaller and more flexible with the capability to t ake and store photos.=C2- He works at Texas Air Salvage and uses his for accident investigation inspections so he spent a good deal more than $30 fo r it.=C2- =0A=C2-=0AConsidering how cheap they have gotten it seems lik e a worthwhile investment for all of us.=0A=C2-=0ABob=0A =0A=0A__________ ______________________=0A From: Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>=0ATo : kis-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Friday, August 9, 2013 3:55 PM=0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: Re: How long does it take to build an throttle body airbox? k.net>=0A=0AMark T and Scott,=0A=0AWalmart also has them if you do not have a HF local.=C2- Another type you can get on ebay for about $13 to $30 ha s a USB connector and you need to plug into a computer or tablet (with mast er USB) for the display.=C2- I prefer the USB bore scopes due to the larg er screen on the computer and the freedom of the long cable.=0A=0AMark K=0A =0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0A>From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.co m>=0A>Sent: Aug 9, 2013 12:21 PM=0A>To: "kis-list@matronics.com" <kis-list@ matronics.com>=0A>Subject: Re: KIS-List: Re: How long does it take to build rns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>=0A>=0A>Hey Mark,=0A>=0A>Harbor freight has a chea pish camera on a flexible arm thing.=C2- Works pretty well.=C2- Be sure to find a 20% off coupon.=C2- They call it a digital inspection camera. =C2- =0A>=0A>Scott=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On Aug 9, 2013, at 9:59 AM, "ma rk_trickel" <marktrickel@gmail.com> wrote:=0A>=0A>> --> KIS-List message po sted by: "mark_trickel" <marktrickel@gmail.com>=0A>> =0A>> Hey Robert,=0A>> =0A>> Attached is a pic of the =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93locomotion=C3=A2=82 =AC end of Scott=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s - King of all KISes. It shows the RV scoop and how he blended it onto the stock cowling. The part is about 8 0 bucks, but would remove the individuality that you have expressed in your build so far. I must say Robert when I look through the pics of your build your level of quality and innovation is first class. When Ken McCormick bu ilt the airplane I have he spent 500 hours to complete the airframe. When I look at yours I see more than 500 hours in the cockpit alone. Keep on Crui sin=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2.=0A>> =0A>> Thanks everybody for you input on m y fuel tank situation. One thing I should have mentioned is it was fueled w ith auto gas. But it only flew about one year and there appears to be no da mage or any signs of leaking, plus all the fuel leaked out of that big hole anyway. I plan to check the tanks out thoroughly with some kind of bore sc ope. I hate the idea of cutting holes in the wing but I will do what I must . Mark K =C3=A2=82=AC=9C how about this idea, if I can=C3=A2=82 =AC=84=A2t use the existing tanks-use the wing tips from the last rib ou tward and maybe make longer wing tips?=0A>> =0A>> Mark T.=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> Read this topic online here:=0A>> =0A>> http://forums.matronics .com/viewtopic.php?p=406317#406317=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> Attachmen ts: =0A>> =0A>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/scotts_tr_1c_cowling_138 .jpg=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A=0A=0A ==C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ==C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-




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