Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:47 AM - Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure (Galin Hernandez)
2. 06:15 AM - Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure (Mark Kettering)
3. 06:21 AM - Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure (Galin Hernandez)
4. 06:22 AM - Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure (Galin Hernandez)
5. 06:43 AM - N819PR Nose Gear Failure (Owen Baker)
6. 06:53 AM - Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure (Robert Reed)
7. 07:13 AM - Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure (Tim Yoder)
8. 07:20 AM - Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure (Robert Reed)
9. 07:57 AM - Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure (Mark Kettering)
10. 11:41 AM - Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure (Scott Stearns)
11. 01:16 PM - Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure (Galin Hernandez)
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Subject: | Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
Initial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall damage at all, so the
actual damage is not a big deal. Engine will be completely overhauled, a
new nose gear installed, a new propeller installed, some fiberglass work
done and the airplane will be better than before. The airplane is a whole
lot stronger than it looks.
The rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket broke letting the entire
assembly rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this happened the main tube
held up for a little bit but eventually collapsed under the different
stress. I will ask Lyle if he can make the landing gear rear pin a little
bigger to better withstand the landing loads.
I will definitely look at moving the main gear an inch or two further
forward but not sure if it can be done at this stage. The other option is
to go with a CATTO composite prop, which is lighter than the
SENSENICH aluminum prop I have, but composite props and rain don't mix very
well and I fly real IMC.
On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 10:47 PM, Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>
> Hello Galin,
>
> I have seen quotes from under $2000 to about $4000 for a tear down and
> inspection on a certified IO-360 so while not cheap it is not too expensi
ve.
>
> I know I am about to sound like a broken record but the issue with the
> nose gear is the main gear placement. As designed and as most are built
> the main gear is WAY too far back. This places much more load on the nos
e
> gear and contributes to nose slam and Pilot induced oscillation. Current
ly
> the TR-4 has about 33% of the weight on the nose gear empty. At no time
> should it be over 25% (most forward CG) and typically should be about 10%
> at mid aft CG. At far aft CG it should be in the single digits. Actuall
y
> if you load to absolute aft CG and push the tail to the ground it should
> almost or even stay there.
>
> Everyone, move your main gear forward to save your nose gear, engine and
> prop. This is an easy and cheap change and I know you will love it once
> you have done it. And so will your nose gear.
>
> Mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Galin Hernandez
>
> Sent: Jul 23, 2014 8:45 AM
>
> To: "kis-list@matronics.com"
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>
>
> THANKS for the info. I am meeting with a mechanic today for his opinion.
I
> have decided not to do the work myself (too emotionally involved) and hav
e
> an impartial person help me with the decision. At least the airplane is i
n
> my hangar already so there is no need to move it.
>
> I don't think it will be written off as a total loss but lets see what
> happens. I like the idea of maybe using the RV-10 nose gear but am afraid
> it might be too heavy making the nose drop during landing even more
> pronounced.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 4:15 AM, <Keith.Miller@esa.int> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Galin,
>
>
> I know how your feeling , since i had a nose gear failure on my KIS (2)
>
> just after i completed her . It was a very bad nights sleep for me , an
d
>
> even worse after the insurance man turned up , since it doesn't take muc
h
>
> for the insurance company to consider a right off , but i was not
> accepting
>
> that and made a deal with them to settle for a lower amount plus the plan
e
>
> back . in the end it took an engine strip down and rebuild, new Prop, a
> new
>
> nose gear from Lyle ,a bit of glass fibre and paint and she has been
> flying
>
> great for the last 11 years. The engine strip down showed no interna
l
>
> damage and was completed for just 3500 pounds ( 5.5K$). it took me 6
> months
>
> to get back in the air but i ended up about 6 K pounds in profit . i
> would
>
> be surprised if there was any damage to the firewall from a slow taxi
> nose
>
> gear failure.
>
> The good thing is that the airframe and wings were not damaged, take the
>
> wings off , rent a trailer and get her home and into the workshop , pou
r
>
> yourself a stiff drink and make a list of what is required to get back i
n
>
> the air
>
> Engine strip and rebuild( 6K), (plus maybe 2K for parts).
>
> New Prop and spinner (8K)
>
> New Nose gear (1K)
>
> Bit of paint ( 1K )
>
> Repairs to the cowling (1K)
>
> Labour ( if you can't do it yourself ) 5K max
>
>
> Seriously consider making a deal with the insurance to get back the
> plane
>
> if they tell you it's scrap . even if you cant do the work yourself ther
e
>
> are plenty of people out there with the skill who can.
>
>
> Does any body know if Lyle is still making parts ? and does anyone want
> up
>
> update/ correct my estimates above .
>
>
> Keith
>
>
> From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>
>
> To: "kis-list@matronics.com" <kis-list@matronics.com>,
>
> Date: 07/23/2014 06:41 AM
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>
> Sent by: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
>
>
> The RV-10 nosegear looks like it would be a possible conversion, if vans
> will
>
> sell them... Or a taildragger conversion....
>
>
> http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1BUCUXrqtsE/TJqBGCqCJYI/AAAAAAAAAR8/eL7IweRFt3A/s80
0/rv-10.jpg
>
>
> Scott
>
>
> On Jul 22, 2014, at 4:28 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I am not smart enough to design anything like that on my own. If it
> was
>
> electrical or electronic THAT I can do. ;)
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:56 PM, Conners, Jerry L <
>
> jconners@dot.state.nv.us> wrote:
>
> I would design myself and then have it fabricated in a manner tha
t
>
> Lyle has done in the pastno short cuts in the constructi
on and
> using
>
> Paul Lamar=99s worst case math to determine the loads on im
pact.
>
>
> From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
>
> owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:53 PM
>
>
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>
>
> Jerry; Do you know where to get a "new and improved" nose gear? O
ne
>
> rated for about 150,000lbs? ;)
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Conners, Jerry L <
>
> jconners@dot.state.nv.us> wrote:
>
>
> The damage looks minimaltear down inspection being the m
ost costly
>
> repair (with resulting needed replacement parts)then a n
ew and
>
> improved new nose gearhope the aircraft returns to the a
ir soon
>
>
> From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
>
> owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:44 PM
>
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>
>
> With it being insured at only $75,000, it might wind up being mor
e
>
> than 50% just to repair it. If I do part it out, a GREAT
> plug-n-play
>
> instrument panel for a TR-4 will be available real soon.
>
>
> ;)
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Alfred Rosa <fredorosa@gmail.com
>
>
> wrote:
>
>
> So sorry to hear this Galin. It doesn't look bad enough to
> part-out
>
> but I know how insurance companies are.
>
>
> Al Rosa
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Galin Hernandez <
> galinhdz@gmail.com>
>
> wrote:
>
>
> Yesterday, after a day of flying, the nose gear on my TR-4 failed
>
> just before I exited the runway. The landings (three that day) we
re
>
> super smooth, which is not very common for me. I am not a
> mechanical
>
> engineer and didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express but preliminar
y
>
> check looks like the front pin on the nose gear assembly failed.
> When
>
> I went to make the right turn off the runway, the rear pin then
>
> failed which let the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees to the
> left.
>
> Once the assembly was 180 degrees off center the tube couldn't ho
ld
>
> the stress, it failed and the whole thing collapsed.
>
>
> The worst part is if I would have taken the previous exit it woul
d
>
> have happened on the non-movement area of the airport. But since
I
>
> taxied to an exit closer to my hangar it happened on the runway s
o
>
> now the FAA is involved. Like I said, "Murphy is alive and well i
n
>
> aviation".
>
>
> Depending on the firewall condition it could cost more to repair
> than
>
> the insured value. When the insurance company tells me what they
> are
>
> going to do about the claim I will make a decision to repair or t
o
>
> part the airplane out.
>
>
> Here are some photo's of the airplane on the runway.
>
>
> :(
>
>
> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
>
> tp://forums.matronics.com
>
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
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|
Subject: | Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
Moving the main gear forward is very simple. You do not more the gear where it
attaches to the fuselage you just angle it forward with a FLOX wedge. On my
TR1 I unbolted the main gear and dropped it down. Then I made two small wood blocks
about 3/8" thick to use as spacers. I placed these on the trailing edge
of the main gear center section and test bolted the gear in place now angled
forward due to the spacers. Remove and adjust as needed. When I was happy with
the new wheel location I lowered the gear again, covered it with packing tape
for a release, piled FLOX on the top of the gear and bolted it in place with
the spacers holding the angle. This took me about 3 hours total.
Some may be thinking that having the gear angled forward will put more stress on
the attachment. Actually the opposite is true. On landing there are two main
forces, the vertical load due to the rate of decent and the horizontal load
due to the rapid spin up of the wheels. This horizontal load is the main stress
on the attachment and is reduced due to the forward angle.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Galin Hernandez
Sent: Jul 24, 2014 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Initial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall damage at all, so the actual
damage is not a big deal. Engine will be completely overhauled, a new nose gear
installed, a new propeller installed, some fiberglass work done and the airplane
will be better than before. The airplane is a whole lot stronger than it
looks.
The rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket broke letting the entire assembly
rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this happened the main tube held up for a
little bit but eventually collapsed under the different stress. I will ask Lyle
if he can make the landing gear rear pin a little bigger to better withstand
the landing loads.
I will definitely look at moving the main gear an inch or two further forward
but not sure if it can be done at this stage. The other option is to go with a
CATTO composite prop, which is lighter than the SENSENICH aluminum prop I have,
but composite props and rain don't mix very well and I fly real IMC.
On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 10:47 PM, Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net> wrote:
Hello Galin,
I have seen quotes from under $2000 to about $4000 for a tear down and inspection
on a certified IO-360 so while not cheap it is not too expensive.
I know I am about to sound like a broken record but the issue with the nose gear
is the main gear placement. As designed and as most are built the main gear
is WAY too far back. This places much more load on the nose gear and contributes
to nose slam and Pilot induced oscillation. Currently the TR-4 has about
33% of the weight on the nose gear empty. At no time should it be over 25% (most
forward CG) and typically should be about 10% at mid aft CG. At far aft
CG it should be in the single digits. Actually if you load to absolute aft CG
and push the tail to the ground it should almost or even stay there.
Everyone, move your main gear forward to save your nose gear, engine and prop.
This is an easy and cheap change and I know you will love it once you have done
it. And so will your nose gear.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Galin Hernandez
Sent: Jul 23, 2014 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
THANKS for the info. I am meeting with a mechanic today for his opinion. I have
decided not to do the work myself (too emotionally involved) and have an impartial
person help me with the decision. At least the airplane is in my hangar
already so there is no need to move it.
I don't think it will be written off as a total loss but lets see what happens.
I like the idea of maybe using the RV-10 nose gear but am afraid it might be
too heavy making the nose drop during landing even more pronounced.
On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 4:15 AM, <Keith.Miller@esa.int> wrote:
Galin,
I know how your feeling , since i had a nose gear failure on my KIS (2)
just after i completed her . It was a very bad nights sleep for me , and
even worse after the insurance man turned up , since it doesn't take much
for the insurance company to consider a right off , but i was not accepting
that and made a deal with them to settle for a lower amount plus the plane
back . in the end it took an engine strip down and rebuild, new Prop, a new
nose gear from Lyle ,a bit of glass fibre and paint and she has been flying
great for the last 11 years. The engine strip down showed no internal
damage and was completed for just 3500 pounds ( 5.5K$). it took me 6 months
to get back in the air but i ended up about 6 K pounds in profit . i would
be surprised if there was any damage to the firewall from a slow taxi nose
gear failure.
The good thing is that the airframe and wings were not damaged, take the
wings off , rent a trailer and get her home and into the workshop , pour
yourself a stiff drink and make a list of what is required to get back in
the air
Engine strip and rebuild( 6K), (plus maybe 2K for parts).
New Prop and spinner (8K)
New Nose gear (1K)
Bit of paint ( 1K )
Repairs to the cowling (1K)
Labour ( if you can't do it yourself ) 5K max
Seriously consider making a deal with the insurance to get back the plane
if they tell you it's scrap . even if you cant do the work yourself there
are plenty of people out there with the skill who can.
Does any body know if Lyle is still making parts ? and does anyone want up
update/ correct my estimates above .
Keith
From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Sent by: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
The RV-10 nosegear looks like it would be a possible conversion, if vans will
sell them... Or a taildragger conversion....
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1BUCUXrqtsE/TJqBGCqCJYI/AAAAAAAAAR8/eL7IweRFt3A/s800/rv-10.jpg
Scott
On Jul 22, 2014, at 4:28 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com> wrote:
I am not smart enough to design anything like that on my own. If it was
electrical or electronic THAT I can do. ;)
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:56 PM, Conners, Jerry L <
jconners@dot.state.nv.us> wrote:
I would design myself and then have it fabricated in a manner that
Lyle has done in the pastno short cuts in the construction and using
Paul Lamars worst case math to determine the loads on impact.
From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:53 PM
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Jerry; Do you know where to get a "new and improved" nose gear? One
rated for about 150,000lbs? ;)
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Conners, Jerry L <
jconners@dot.state.nv.us> wrote:
The damage looks minimaltear down inspection being the most costly
repair (with resulting needed replacement parts)then a new and
improved new nose gearhope the aircraft returns to the air soon
From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:44 PM
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
With it being insured at only $75,000, it might wind up being more
than 50% just to repair it. If I do part it out, a GREAT plug-n-play
instrument panel for a TR-4 will be available real soon.
;)
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Alfred Rosa <fredorosa@gmail.com>
wrote:
So sorry to hear this Galin. It doesn't look bad enough to part-out
but I know how insurance companies are.
Al Rosa
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com>
wrote:
Yesterday, after a day of flying, the nose gear on my TR-4 failed
just before I exited the runway. The landings (three that day) were
super smooth, which is not very common for me. I am not a mechanical
engineer and didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express but preliminary
check looks like the front pin on the nose gear assembly failed. When
I went to make the right turn off the runway, the rear pin then
failed which let the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees to the left.
Once the assembly was 180 degrees off center the tube couldn't hold
the stress, it failed and the whole thing collapsed.
The worst part is if I would have taken the previous exit it would
have happened on the non-movement area of the airport. But since I
taxied to an exit closer to my hangar it happened on the runway so
now the FAA is involved. Like I said, "Murphy is alive and well in
aviation".
Depending on the firewall condition it could cost more to repair than
the insured value. When the insurance company tells me what they are
going to do about the claim I will make a decision to repair or to
part the airplane out.
Here are some photo's of the airplane on the runway.
:(
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
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|
Subject: | Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
I think this was already done on my airplane but I will check when we start
working on it.
On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>
> Moving the main gear forward is very simple. You do not more the gear
> where it attaches to the fuselage you just angle it forward with a FLOX
> wedge. On my TR1 I unbolted the main gear and dropped it down. Then I ma
de
> two small wood blocks about 3/8" thick to use as spacers. I placed these
> on the trailing edge of the main gear center section and test bolted the
> gear in place now angled forward due to the spacers. Remove and adjust a
s
> needed. When I was happy with the new wheel location I lowered the gear
> again, covered it with packing tape for a release, piled FLOX on the top
of
> the gear and bolted it in place with the spacers holding the angle. This
> took me about 3 hours total.
>
> Some may be thinking that having the gear angled forward will put more
> stress on the attachment. Actually the opposite is true. On landing the
re
> are two main forces, the vertical load due to the rate of decent and the
> horizontal load due to the rapid spin up of the wheels. This horizontal
> load is the main stress on the attachment and is reduced due to the forwa
rd
> angle.
>
> Mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Galin Hernandez
>
> Sent: Jul 24, 2014 8:46 AM
>
> To: "kis-list@matronics.com"
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>
>
> Initial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall damage at all, so the
> actual damage is not a big deal. Engine will be completely overhauled, a
> new nose gear installed, a new propeller installed, some fiberglass work
> done and the airplane will be better than before. The airplane is a whole
> lot stronger than it looks.
>
> The rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket broke letting the entire
> assembly rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this happened the main tube
> held up for a little bit but eventually collapsed under the different
> stress. I will ask Lyle if he can make the landing gear rear pin a little
> bigger to better withstand the landing loads.
>
> I will definitely look at moving the main gear an inch or two further
> forward but not sure if it can be done at this stage. The other option is
> to go with a CATTO composite prop, which is lighter than the SENSENICH
> aluminum prop I have, but composite props and rain don't mix very well an
d
> I fly real IMC.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 10:47 PM, Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hello Galin,
>
>
> I have seen quotes from under $2000 to about $4000 for a tear down and
> inspection on a certified IO-360 so while not cheap it is not too expensi
ve.
>
>
> I know I am about to sound like a broken record but the issue with the
> nose gear is the main gear placement. As designed and as most are built
> the main gear is WAY too far back. This places much more load on the nos
e
> gear and contributes to nose slam and Pilot induced oscillation. Current
ly
> the TR-4 has about 33% of the weight on the nose gear empty. At no time
> should it be over 25% (most forward CG) and typically should be about 10%
> at mid aft CG. At far aft CG it should be in the single digits. Actuall
y
> if you load to absolute aft CG and push the tail to the ground it should
> almost or even stay there.
>
>
> Everyone, move your main gear forward to save your nose gear, engine and
> prop. This is an easy and cheap change and I know you will love it once
> you have done it. And so will your nose gear.
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> From: Galin Hernandez
>
>
> Sent: Jul 23, 2014 8:45 AM
>
>
> To: "kis-list@matronics.com"
>
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>
>
> THANKS for the info. I am meeting with a mechanic today for his opinion.
I
> have decided not to do the work myself (too emotionally involved) and hav
e
> an impartial person help me with the decision. At least the airplane is i
n
> my hangar already so there is no need to move it.
>
>
> I don't think it will be written off as a total loss but lets see what
> happens. I like the idea of maybe using the RV-10 nose gear but am afraid
> it might be too heavy making the nose drop during landing even more
> pronounced.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 4:15 AM, <Keith.Miller@esa.int> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Galin,
>
>
> I know how your feeling , since i had a nose gear failure on my KIS (2)
>
>
> just after i completed her . It was a very bad nights sleep for me , an
d
>
>
> even worse after the insurance man turned up , since it doesn't take muc
h
>
>
> for the insurance company to consider a right off , but i was not
> accepting
>
>
> that and made a deal with them to settle for a lower amount plus the plan
e
>
>
> back . in the end it took an engine strip down and rebuild, new Prop, a
> new
>
>
> nose gear from Lyle ,a bit of glass fibre and paint and she has been
> flying
>
>
> great for the last 11 years. The engine strip down showed no interna
l
>
>
> damage and was completed for just 3500 pounds ( 5.5K$). it took me 6
> months
>
>
> to get back in the air but i ended up about 6 K pounds in profit . i
> would
>
>
> be surprised if there was any damage to the firewall from a slow taxi
> nose
>
>
> gear failure.
>
>
> The good thing is that the airframe and wings were not damaged, take the
>
>
> wings off , rent a trailer and get her home and into the workshop , pou
r
>
>
> yourself a stiff drink and make a list of what is required to get back i
n
>
>
> the air
>
>
> Engine strip and rebuild( 6K), (plus maybe 2K for parts).
>
>
> New Prop and spinner (8K)
>
>
> New Nose gear (1K)
>
>
> Bit of paint ( 1K )
>
>
> Repairs to the cowling (1K)
>
>
> Labour ( if you can't do it yourself ) 5K max
>
>
> Seriously consider making a deal with the insurance to get back the
> plane
>
>
> if they tell you it's scrap . even if you cant do the work yourself ther
e
>
>
> are plenty of people out there with the skill who can.
>
>
> Does any body know if Lyle is still making parts ? and does anyone want
> up
>
>
> update/ correct my estimates above .
>
>
> Keith
>
>
> From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>
>
>
> To: "kis-list@matronics.com" <kis-list@matronics.com>,
>
>
> Date: 07/23/2014 06:41 AM
>
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>
>
> Sent by: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
>
>
> The RV-10 nosegear looks like it would be a possible conversion, if vans
> will
>
>
> sell them... Or a taildragger conversion....
>
>
> http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1BUCUXrqtsE/TJqBGCqCJYI/AAAAAAAAAR8/eL7IweRFt3A/s80
0/rv-10.jpg
>
>
> Scott
>
>
> On Jul 22, 2014, at 4:28 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I am not smart enough to design anything like that on my own. If it
> was
>
>
> electrical or electronic THAT I can do. ;)
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:56 PM, Conners, Jerry L <
>
>
> jconners@dot.state.nv.us> wrote:
>
>
> I would design myself and then have it fabricated in a manner tha
t
>
>
> Lyle has done in the pastno short cuts in the constructi
on and
> using
>
>
> Paul Lamar=99s worst case math to determine the loads on im
pact.
>
>
> From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
>
>
> owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
>
>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:53 PM
>
>
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>
>
> Jerry; Do you know where to get a "new and improved" nose gear? O
ne
>
>
> rated for about 150,000lbs? ;)
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Conners, Jerry L <
>
>
> jconners@dot.state.nv.us> wrote:
>
>
> The damage looks minimaltear down inspection being the m
ost costly
>
>
> repair (with resulting needed replacement parts)then a n
ew and
>
>
> improved new nose gearhope the aircraft returns to the a
ir soon
>
>
> From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
>
>
> owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
>
>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:44 PM
>
>
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>
>
> With it being insured at only $75,000, it might wind up being mor
e
>
>
> than 50% just to repair it. If I do part it out, a GREAT
> plug-n-play
>
>
> instrument panel for a TR-4 will be available real soon.
>
>
> ;)
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Alfred Rosa <fredorosa@gmail.com
>
>
> wrote:
>
>
> So sorry to hear this Galin. It doesn't look bad enough to
> part-out
>
>
> but I know how insurance companies are.
>
>
> Al Rosa
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Galin Hernandez <
> galinhdz@gmail.com>
>
>
> wrote:
>
>
> Yesterday, after a day of flying, the nose gear on my TR-4 failed
>
>
> just before I exited the runway. The landings (three that day) we
re
>
>
> super smooth, which is not very common for me. I am not a
> mechanical
>
>
> engineer and didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express but preliminar
y
>
>
> check looks like the front pin on the nose gear assembly failed.
> When
>
>
> I went to make the right turn off the runway, the rear pin then
>
>
> failed which let the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees to the
> left.
>
>
> Once the assembly was 180 degrees off center the tube couldn't ho
ld
>
>
> the stress, it failed and the whole thing collapsed.
>
>
> The worst part is if I would have taken the previous exit it woul
d
>
>
> have happened on the non-movement area of the airport. But since
I
>
>
> taxied to an exit closer to my hangar it happened on the runway s
o
>
>
> now the FAA is involved. Like I said, "Murphy is alive and well i
n
>
>
> aviation".
>
>
> Depending on the firewall condition it could cost more to repair
> than
>
>
> the insured value. When the insurance company tells me what they
> are
>
>
> going to do about the claim I will make a decision to repair or t
o
>
>
> part the airplane out.
>
>
> Here are some photo's of the airplane on the runway.
>
>
> :(
>
>
> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
>
>
> tp://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> =============
>
>
> IS-List Email Forum -
>
>
> u>
>
>
> >
>
>
> tor?KIS-List" target="_blank">
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>
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>
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>
>
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>
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> content is not permitted.
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> If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delet
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|
Subject: | Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
How much further forward should the main tires end up after this?
On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>
> Moving the main gear forward is very simple. You do not more the gear
> where it attaches to the fuselage you just angle it forward with a FLOX
> wedge. On my TR1 I unbolted the main gear and dropped it down. Then I ma
de
> two small wood blocks about 3/8" thick to use as spacers. I placed these
> on the trailing edge of the main gear center section and test bolted the
> gear in place now angled forward due to the spacers. Remove and adjust a
s
> needed. When I was happy with the new wheel location I lowered the gear
> again, covered it with packing tape for a release, piled FLOX on the top
of
> the gear and bolted it in place with the spacers holding the angle. This
> took me about 3 hours total.
>
> Some may be thinking that having the gear angled forward will put more
> stress on the attachment. Actually the opposite is true. On landing the
re
> are two main forces, the vertical load due to the rate of decent and the
> horizontal load due to the rapid spin up of the wheels. This horizontal
> load is the main stress on the attachment and is reduced due to the forwa
rd
> angle.
>
> Mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Galin Hernandez
>
> Sent: Jul 24, 2014 8:46 AM
>
> To: "kis-list@matronics.com"
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>
>
> Initial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall damage at all, so the
> actual damage is not a big deal. Engine will be completely overhauled, a
> new nose gear installed, a new propeller installed, some fiberglass work
> done and the airplane will be better than before. The airplane is a whole
> lot stronger than it looks.
>
> The rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket broke letting the entire
> assembly rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this happened the main tube
> held up for a little bit but eventually collapsed under the different
> stress. I will ask Lyle if he can make the landing gear rear pin a little
> bigger to better withstand the landing loads.
>
> I will definitely look at moving the main gear an inch or two further
> forward but not sure if it can be done at this stage. The other option is
> to go with a CATTO composite prop, which is lighter than the SENSENICH
> aluminum prop I have, but composite props and rain don't mix very well an
d
> I fly real IMC.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 10:47 PM, Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hello Galin,
>
>
> I have seen quotes from under $2000 to about $4000 for a tear down and
> inspection on a certified IO-360 so while not cheap it is not too expensi
ve.
>
>
> I know I am about to sound like a broken record but the issue with the
> nose gear is the main gear placement. As designed and as most are built
> the main gear is WAY too far back. This places much more load on the nos
e
> gear and contributes to nose slam and Pilot induced oscillation. Current
ly
> the TR-4 has about 33% of the weight on the nose gear empty. At no time
> should it be over 25% (most forward CG) and typically should be about 10%
> at mid aft CG. At far aft CG it should be in the single digits. Actuall
y
> if you load to absolute aft CG and push the tail to the ground it should
> almost or even stay there.
>
>
> Everyone, move your main gear forward to save your nose gear, engine and
> prop. This is an easy and cheap change and I know you will love it once
> you have done it. And so will your nose gear.
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> From: Galin Hernandez
>
>
> Sent: Jul 23, 2014 8:45 AM
>
>
> To: "kis-list@matronics.com"
>
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>
>
> THANKS for the info. I am meeting with a mechanic today for his opinion.
I
> have decided not to do the work myself (too emotionally involved) and hav
e
> an impartial person help me with the decision. At least the airplane is i
n
> my hangar already so there is no need to move it.
>
>
> I don't think it will be written off as a total loss but lets see what
> happens. I like the idea of maybe using the RV-10 nose gear but am afraid
> it might be too heavy making the nose drop during landing even more
> pronounced.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 4:15 AM, <Keith.Miller@esa.int> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Galin,
>
>
> I know how your feeling , since i had a nose gear failure on my KIS (2)
>
>
> just after i completed her . It was a very bad nights sleep for me , an
d
>
>
> even worse after the insurance man turned up , since it doesn't take muc
h
>
>
> for the insurance company to consider a right off , but i was not
> accepting
>
>
> that and made a deal with them to settle for a lower amount plus the plan
e
>
>
> back . in the end it took an engine strip down and rebuild, new Prop, a
> new
>
>
> nose gear from Lyle ,a bit of glass fibre and paint and she has been
> flying
>
>
> great for the last 11 years. The engine strip down showed no interna
l
>
>
> damage and was completed for just 3500 pounds ( 5.5K$). it took me 6
> months
>
>
> to get back in the air but i ended up about 6 K pounds in profit . i
> would
>
>
> be surprised if there was any damage to the firewall from a slow taxi
> nose
>
>
> gear failure.
>
>
> The good thing is that the airframe and wings were not damaged, take the
>
>
> wings off , rent a trailer and get her home and into the workshop , pou
r
>
>
> yourself a stiff drink and make a list of what is required to get back i
n
>
>
> the air
>
>
> Engine strip and rebuild( 6K), (plus maybe 2K for parts).
>
>
> New Prop and spinner (8K)
>
>
> New Nose gear (1K)
>
>
> Bit of paint ( 1K )
>
>
> Repairs to the cowling (1K)
>
>
> Labour ( if you can't do it yourself ) 5K max
>
>
> Seriously consider making a deal with the insurance to get back the
> plane
>
>
> if they tell you it's scrap . even if you cant do the work yourself ther
e
>
>
> are plenty of people out there with the skill who can.
>
>
> Does any body know if Lyle is still making parts ? and does anyone want
> up
>
>
> update/ correct my estimates above .
>
>
> Keith
>
>
> From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>
>
>
> To: "kis-list@matronics.com" <kis-list@matronics.com>,
>
>
> Date: 07/23/2014 06:41 AM
>
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>
>
> Sent by: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
>
>
> The RV-10 nosegear looks like it would be a possible conversion, if vans
> will
>
>
> sell them... Or a taildragger conversion....
>
>
> http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1BUCUXrqtsE/TJqBGCqCJYI/AAAAAAAAAR8/eL7IweRFt3A/s80
0/rv-10.jpg
>
>
> Scott
>
>
> On Jul 22, 2014, at 4:28 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I am not smart enough to design anything like that on my own. If it
> was
>
>
> electrical or electronic THAT I can do. ;)
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:56 PM, Conners, Jerry L <
>
>
> jconners@dot.state.nv.us> wrote:
>
>
> I would design myself and then have it fabricated in a manner tha
t
>
>
> Lyle has done in the pastno short cuts in the constructi
on and
> using
>
>
> Paul Lamar=99s worst case math to determine the loads on im
pact.
>
>
> From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
>
>
> owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
>
>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:53 PM
>
>
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>
>
> Jerry; Do you know where to get a "new and improved" nose gear? O
ne
>
>
> rated for about 150,000lbs? ;)
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Conners, Jerry L <
>
>
> jconners@dot.state.nv.us> wrote:
>
>
> The damage looks minimaltear down inspection being the m
ost costly
>
>
> repair (with resulting needed replacement parts)then a n
ew and
>
>
> improved new nose gearhope the aircraft returns to the a
ir soon
>
>
> From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
>
>
> owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
>
>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:44 PM
>
>
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>
>
> With it being insured at only $75,000, it might wind up being mor
e
>
>
> than 50% just to repair it. If I do part it out, a GREAT
> plug-n-play
>
>
> instrument panel for a TR-4 will be available real soon.
>
>
> ;)
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Alfred Rosa <fredorosa@gmail.com
>
>
> wrote:
>
>
> So sorry to hear this Galin. It doesn't look bad enough to
> part-out
>
>
> but I know how insurance companies are.
>
>
> Al Rosa
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Galin Hernandez <
> galinhdz@gmail.com>
>
>
> wrote:
>
>
> Yesterday, after a day of flying, the nose gear on my TR-4 failed
>
>
> just before I exited the runway. The landings (three that day) we
re
>
>
> super smooth, which is not very common for me. I am not a
> mechanical
>
>
> engineer and didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express but preliminar
y
>
>
> check looks like the front pin on the nose gear assembly failed.
> When
>
>
> I went to make the right turn off the runway, the rear pin then
>
>
> failed which let the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees to the
> left.
>
>
> Once the assembly was 180 degrees off center the tube couldn't ho
ld
>
>
> the stress, it failed and the whole thing collapsed.
>
>
> The worst part is if I would have taken the previous exit it woul
d
>
>
> have happened on the non-movement area of the airport. But since
I
>
>
> taxied to an exit closer to my hangar it happened on the runway s
o
>
>
> now the FAA is involved. Like I said, "Murphy is alive and well i
n
>
>
> aviation".
>
>
> Depending on the firewall condition it could cost more to repair
> than
>
>
> the insured value. When the insurance company tells me what they
> are
>
>
> going to do about the claim I will make a decision to repair or t
o
>
>
> part the airplane out.
>
>
> Here are some photo's of the airplane on the runway.
>
>
> :(
>
>
> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
>
>
> tp://forums.matronics.com
>
>
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|
Subject: | N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
7/24/2014
Hello Galin, You wrote: =9C.... composite props and rain don't mix
very well....=9D
Would you consider a prince propeller with leading edge protection?
http://www.princeaircraft.com/
OC
========
From: Galin Hernandez
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Initial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall damage at all, so
the actual damage is not a big deal. Engine will be completely
overhauled, a new nose gear installed, a new propeller installed, some
fiberglass work done and the airplane will be better than before. The
airplane is a whole lot stronger than it looks.
The rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket broke letting the entire
assembly rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this happened the main tube
held up for a little bit but eventually collapsed under the different
stress. I will ask Lyle if he can make the landing gear rear pin a
little bigger to better withstand the landing loads.
I will definitely look at moving the main gear an inch or two further
forward but not sure if it can be done at this stage. The other option
is to go with a CATTO composite prop, which is lighter than the
SENSENICH aluminum prop I have, but composite props and rain don't mix
very well and I fly real IMC.
Message 6
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|
Subject: | Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
Galin,=0A=C2-=0ACatto has made some improvements to his prop and he has
=C2-added=C2-an optional nickel=C2-metal leading edge which should el
iminate any issues with the rain.=C2- There are photos of the updated pro
p on his website.=C2- http://www.cattoprops.com/=0A=C2-=0ANot sure what
his lead time is now but worth a look see.=0A=C2-=0ABob=0A=C2-=0APS: O
nce you get the nose gear off please take some photos and post for us to se
e.=0A=0AFrom: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com>=0ATo: "kis-list@matronic
s.com" <kis-list@matronics.com> =0ASent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 7:46 AM=0A
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure=0A=0A=0A=0AInitial check by
the mechanic indicates no firewall damage at all, so the actual damage is
not a big deal. Engine will be completely overhauled, a new nose gear insta
lled, a new propeller installed, some fiberglass work done and the airplane
will be better than before. The airplane is a whole lot stronger than it l
ooks.=0A=C2-=0AThe rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket=C2-broke le
tting the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this happened
the main tube held up for a little bit but eventually collapsed under the d
ifferent stress. I will ask Lyle if he can make the landing gear rear pin a
little bigger to better withstand the landing loads.=0A=C2-=0AI will def
initely look at moving the=C2-main gear an inch or two further forward bu
t not sure if it can be done at this stage. The other option is to go with
a CATTO composite prop, which is=C2-lighter than the SENSENICH=C2-alumi
num prop I have, but composite props and rain don't mix very well and I fly
real IMC.=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 10:47 PM, Mark Kettering <man
ing <mantafs@earthlink.net>=0A>=0A>Hello Galin,=0A>=0A>I have seen quotes f
rom under $2000 to about $4000 for a tear down and inspection on a certifie
d IO-360 so while not cheap it is not too expensive.=0A>=0A>I know I am abo
ut to sound like a broken record but the issue with the nose gear is the ma
in gear placement. =C2-As designed and as most are built the main gear is
WAY too far back. =C2-This places much more load on the nose gear and co
ntributes to nose slam and Pilot induced oscillation. =C2-Currently the T
R-4 has about 33% of the weight on the nose gear empty. =C2-At no time sh
ould it be over 25% (most forward CG) and typically should be about 10% at
mid aft CG. =C2-At far aft CG it should be in the single digits. =C2-Ac
tually if you load to absolute aft CG and push the tail to the ground it sh
ould almost or even stay there.=0A>=0A>Everyone, move your main gear forwar
d to save your nose gear, engine and prop. =C2-This is an easy and cheap
change and I know you will love it once you have done it. =C2-And so will
your nose gear.=0A>=0A>Mark=0A>=0A>-----Original Message-----=0A>=0A>From:
Galin Hernandez=0A>=0A>Sent: Jul 23, 2014 8:45 AM=0A>=0A>=0A>To: "kis-list
@matronics.com"=0A>=0A>Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure=0A>
=0A>=0A>=0A>THANKS for the info. I am meeting with a mechanic today for his
opinion. I have decided not to do the work myself (too emotionally involve
d) and have an impartial person help me with the decision. At least the air
plane is in my hangar already so there is no need to move it.=0A>=0A>=C2-
I don't think it will be written off as a total loss but lets see what happ
ens. I like the idea of maybe using the RV-10 nose gear but am afraid it mi
ght be too heavy making the nose drop during landing even more pronounced.
=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 4:15 AM, =C2-<Keith.Miller@esa.in
=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Galin,=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>I know =C2-how your feeling , since
i had a nose gear failure on my KIS (2)=0A>=0A>just after i completed her
. =C2-It was a very bad =C2-nights sleep for me , and=0A>=0A>even worse
after the insurance man =C2-turned up , since it doesn't take much=0A>
=0A>for the insurance company to =C2-consider a right off , but i was not
accepting=0A>=0A>that and made a deal with them to settle for a lower amou
nt plus the plane=0A>=0A>back . in the end =C2-it took an engine strip do
wn and rebuild, new Prop, =C2-a new=0A>=0A>nose gear from Lyle ,a bit of
=C2-glass fibre and paint and she has been flying=0A>=0A>great =C2-for
the last 11 years. The =C2-engine strip down =C2- showed no =C2-inter
nal=0A>=0A>damage and was completed for just =C2-3500 pounds ( 5.5K$).
=C2-it took me 6 months=0A>=0A>to get back in the air but i =C2-ended u
p about 6 K pounds in profit . =C2-i would=0A>=0A>be surprised if there w
as any =C2-damage to the =C2-firewall from a =C2-slow taxi nose=0A>
=0A>gear failure.=0A>=0A>The good =C2-thing is that the airframe and wing
s were not damaged, take the=0A>=0A>wings off , rent a trailer and get her
home =C2-and into the =C2-workshop , pour=0A>=0A>yourself a stiff drink
and =C2-make a list of what is required to get back in=0A>=0A>the air=0A
>=0A>=C2- =C2-Engine strip and rebuild( 6K), (plus maybe =C2-2K for p
arts).=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2-New Prop =C2-and spinner (8K)=0A>=0A>=C2-
=C2-New Nose gear =C2-(1K)=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2-Bit of paint ( 1K )=0A>
=0A>=C2- =C2-Repairs to the =C2-cowling =C2- =C2-(1K)=0A>=0A>=C2
- =C2-Labour ( if you can't do it yourself ) 5K max=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Seri
ously consider making a deal =C2- with the insurance to get back the =C2
-plane=0A>=0A>if they tell you it's scrap . =C2-even if you cant do the
work yourself there=0A>=0A>are plenty of people out there with the skill w
ho can.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Does any body know if Lyle is still making parts =C2
-? =C2-and does anyone want up=0A>=0A>update/ correct =C2-my estimate
s above =C2-.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Keith=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>From:
=C2- Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>=0A>=0A>To: =C2- =C2- "kis-li
st@matronics.com" <kis-list@matronics.com>,=0A>=0A>Date: =C2- 07/23/2014
06:41 AM=0A>=0A>Subject: =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-Re: KIS-List: N819PR No
se Gear Failure=0A>=0A>Sent by: =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-owner-kis-list-s
erver@matronics.com=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>The RV-10 nosegear looks
like it would be a possible conversion, if vans will=0A>=0A>sell them...
=C2-Or a taildragger conversion....=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>http://lh5.ggpht.com/_
1BUCUXrqtsE/TJqBGCqCJYI/AAAAAAAAAR8/eL7IweRFt3A/s800/rv-10.jpg=0A>=0A>=0A>
=0A>Scott=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On Jul 22, 2014, at 4:28 PM, Galin Hernandez <gali
nhdz@gmail.com> wrote:=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- I am not smart e
nough to design anything like that on my own. If it was=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2
- =C2- electrical or electronic THAT I can do. ;)=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:56 PM, Conners, Jerry L
<=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- jconners@dot.state.nv.us> wrote:=0A>=0A>=C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2- I would design myself and then have it fabricated
in a manner that=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Lyle has done in the pa
stno short cuts in the construction and using=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2-
=C2- =C2- Paul Lamar=99s worst case math to determine the loads
on impact.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2
- =C2- From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:=0A>=0A>=C2-
=C2- =C2- =C2- owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gal
in Hernandez=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 201
4 1:53 PM=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- To: ki
s-list@matronics.com=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Subject: Re: KIS-Li
st: N819PR Nose Gear Failure=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A
>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Jerry; Do you know where to get a "new and imp
roved" nose gear? One=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- rated for about 15
0,000lbs? ;)=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2-
=C2- =C2- On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Conners, Jerry L <=0A>=0A>
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- jconners@dot.state.nv.us> wrote:=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A
>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- The damage looks minimaltear
down inspection being the most costly=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- re
pair (with resulting needed replacement parts)then a new and=0A>
=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- improved new nose gearhope the air
craft returns to the air soon=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [
mailto:=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- owner-kis-list-server@matronics.
com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Sent:
Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:44 PM=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- To: kis-l
ist@matronics.com=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Subject: Re: KIS-List:
N819PR Nose Gear Failure=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- With it being insured at only $75,000, it might
wind up being more=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- than 50% just to rep
air it. If I do part it out, a GREAT plug-n-play=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2
- =C2- instrument panel for a TR-4 will be available real soon.=0A>=0A>
=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- ;)=0A>
=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- On
Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Alfred Rosa <fredorosa@gmail.com>=0A>=0A>=C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2- wrote:=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2-
=C2- So sorry to hear this Galin. =C2-It doesn't look bad enough to pa
rt-out=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- but I know how insurance companie
s are.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2-
=C2- Al Rosa=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2-
=C2- =C2- On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@g
mail.com>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- wrote:=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Yesterday, after a day of flying, the nose gear
on my TR-4 failed=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- just before I exited
the runway. The landings (three that day) were=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2-
=C2- super smooth, which is not very common for me. I am not a mechanical
=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- engineer and didn't sleep at a Holiday
Inn Express but preliminary=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- check looks
like the front pin on the nose gear assembly failed. When=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2
- =C2- =C2- I went to make the right turn off the runway, the rear pi
n then=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- failed which let the entire assem
bly rotate 180 degrees to the left.=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Once
the assembly was 180 degrees off center the tube couldn't hold=0A>=0A>=C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2- the stress, it failed and the whole thing collapse
d.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2
- The worst part is if I would have taken the previous exit it would=0A>
=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- have happened on the non-movement area of t
he airport. But since I=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- taxied to an exi
t closer to my hangar it happened on the runway so=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2
- =C2- now the FAA is involved. Like I said, "Murphy is alive and well
in=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- aviation".=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A
>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Depending on the firewall
condition it could cost more to repair than=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2
- the insured value. When the insurance company tells me what they are=0A
>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- going to do about the claim I will make a
decision to repair or to=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- part the airpla
ne out.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2-
=C2- Here are some photo's of the airplane on the runway.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A
>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- :(=0A>=0A>=0A>
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Message 7
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Subject: | N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
Mark,
What is the best location for the TR-1? Inches from firewall?
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Kettering
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 6:14 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Moving the main gear forward is very simple. You do not more the gear where
it attaches to the fuselage you just angle it forward with a FLOX wedge. On
my TR1 I unbolted the main gear and dropped it down. Then I made two small
wood blocks about 3/8" thick to use as spacers. I placed these on the
trailing edge of the main gear center section and test bolted the gear in
place now angled forward due to the spacers. Remove and adjust as needed.
When I was happy with the new wheel location I lowered the gear again,
covered it with packing tape for a release, piled FLOX on the top of the
gear and bolted it in place with the spacers holding the angle. This took
me about 3 hours total.
Some may be thinking that having the gear angled forward will put more
stress on the attachment. Actually the opposite is true. On landing there
are two main forces, the vertical load due to the rate of decent and the
horizontal load due to the rapid spin up of the wheels. This horizontal load
is the main stress on the attachment and is reduced due to the forward
angle.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Galin Hernandez
Sent: Jul 24, 2014 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Initial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall damage at all, so the
actual damage is not a big deal. Engine will be completely overhauled, a new
nose gear installed, a new propeller installed, some fiberglass work done
and the airplane will be better than before. The airplane is a whole lot
stronger than it looks.
The rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket broke letting the entire
assembly rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this happened the main tube held
up for a little bit but eventually collapsed under the different stress. I
will ask Lyle if he can make the landing gear rear pin a little bigger to
better withstand the landing loads.
I will definitely look at moving the main gear an inch or two further
forward but not sure if it can be done at this stage. The other option is to
go with a CATTO composite prop, which is lighter than the SENSENICH aluminum
prop I have, but composite props and rain don't mix very well and I fly real
IMC.
On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 10:47 PM, Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>
wrote:
Hello Galin,
I have seen quotes from under $2000 to about $4000 for a tear down and
inspection on a certified IO-360 so while not cheap it is not too expensive.
I know I am about to sound like a broken record but the issue with the nose
gear is the main gear placement. As designed and as most are built the main
gear is WAY too far back. This places much more load on the nose gear and
contributes to nose slam and Pilot induced oscillation. Currently the TR-4
has about 33% of the weight on the nose gear empty. At no time should it be
over 25% (most forward CG) and typically should be about 10% at mid aft CG.
At far aft CG it should be in the single digits. Actually if you load to
absolute aft CG and push the tail to the ground it should almost or even
stay there.
Everyone, move your main gear forward to save your nose gear, engine and
prop. This is an easy and cheap change and I know you will love it once you
have done it. And so will your nose gear.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Galin Hernandez
Sent: Jul 23, 2014 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
THANKS for the info. I am meeting with a mechanic today for his opinion. I
have decided not to do the work myself (too emotionally involved) and have
an impartial person help me with the decision. At least the airplane is in
my hangar already so there is no need to move it.
I don't think it will be written off as a total loss but lets see what
happens. I like the idea of maybe using the RV-10 nose gear but am afraid it
might be too heavy making the nose drop during landing even more pronounced.
On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 4:15 AM, <Keith.Miller@esa.int> wrote:
Galin,
I know how your feeling , since i had a nose gear failure on my KIS (2)
just after i completed her . It was a very bad nights sleep for me , and
even worse after the insurance man turned up , since it doesn't take much
for the insurance company to consider a right off , but i was not accepting
that and made a deal with them to settle for a lower amount plus the plane
back . in the end it took an engine strip down and rebuild, new Prop, a
new
nose gear from Lyle ,a bit of glass fibre and paint and she has been flying
great for the last 11 years. The engine strip down showed no internal
damage and was completed for just 3500 pounds ( 5.5K$). it took me 6
months
to get back in the air but i ended up about 6 K pounds in profit . i would
be surprised if there was any damage to the firewall from a slow taxi
nose
gear failure.
The good thing is that the airframe and wings were not damaged, take the
wings off , rent a trailer and get her home and into the workshop , pour
yourself a stiff drink and make a list of what is required to get back in
the air
Engine strip and rebuild( 6K), (plus maybe 2K for parts).
New Prop and spinner (8K)
New Nose gear (1K)
Bit of paint ( 1K )
Repairs to the cowling (1K)
Labour ( if you can't do it yourself ) 5K max
Seriously consider making a deal with the insurance to get back the plane
if they tell you it's scrap . even if you cant do the work yourself there
are plenty of people out there with the skill who can.
Does any body know if Lyle is still making parts ? and does anyone want up
update/ correct my estimates above .
Keith
From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Sent by: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
The RV-10 nosegear looks like it would be a possible conversion, if vans
will
sell them... Or a taildragger conversion....
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1BUCUXrqtsE/TJqBGCqCJYI/AAAAAAAAAR8/eL7IweRFt3A/s800/r
v-10.jpg
Scott
On Jul 22, 2014, at 4:28 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com> wrote:
I am not smart enough to design anything like that on my own. If it
was
electrical or electronic THAT I can do. ;)
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:56 PM, Conners, Jerry L <
jconners@dot.state.nv.us> wrote:
I would design myself and then have it fabricated in a manner that
Lyle has done in the past.no short cuts in the construction and
using
Paul Lamar's worst case math to determine the loads on impact.
From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:53 PM
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Jerry; Do you know where to get a "new and improved" nose gear? One
rated for about 150,000lbs? ;)
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Conners, Jerry L <
jconners@dot.state.nv.us> wrote:
The damage looks minimal.tear down inspection being the most costly
repair (with resulting needed replacement parts).then a new and
improved new nose gear.hope the aircraft returns to the air soon
From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:44 PM
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
With it being insured at only $75,000, it might wind up being more
than 50% just to repair it. If I do part it out, a GREAT plug-n-play
instrument panel for a TR-4 will be available real soon.
;)
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Alfred Rosa <fredorosa@gmail.com>
wrote:
So sorry to hear this Galin. It doesn't look bad enough to part-out
but I know how insurance companies are.
Al Rosa
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Galin Hernandez
<galinhdz@gmail.com>
wrote:
Yesterday, after a day of flying, the nose gear on my TR-4 failed
just before I exited the runway. The landings (three that day) were
super smooth, which is not very common for me. I am not a mechanical
engineer and didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express but preliminary
check looks like the front pin on the nose gear assembly failed.
When
I went to make the right turn off the runway, the rear pin then
failed which let the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees to the left.
Once the assembly was 180 degrees off center the tube couldn't hold
the stress, it failed and the whole thing collapsed.
The worst part is if I would have taken the previous exit it would
have happened on the non-movement area of the airport. But since I
taxied to an exit closer to my hangar it happened on the runway so
now the FAA is involved. Like I said, "Murphy is alive and well in
aviation".
Depending on the firewall condition it could cost more to repair
than
the insured value. When the insurance company tells me what they are
going to do about the claim I will make a decision to repair or to
part the airplane out.
Here are some photo's of the airplane on the runway.
:(
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
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Subject: | Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
As an add on to the Catto prop possibility.=0A=C2-=0AM T Propeller http:/
/www.mt-propeller.com/index.htm=C2-makes several different composite prop
s both fixed and constant speed with leading edge protection.=C2- A coupl
e of models are electric constant speed.=0A=C2-=0Aalso=0A=C2-=0AAero Co
mposites Inc. http://www.aerocomposites.com/=C2-has several different 2 a
nd 3 blade composite props which are worth a look.=0A=C2-=0ABoth of the a
bove are a bit more expensive than the Catto prop or at least they were whe
n I did my research.=C2- Each has also come out with new models and upgra
des since then.=0A=C2-=0ABob=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0AFrom: Robert Re
ed <robertr237@att.net>=0ATo: "kis-list@matronics.com" <kis-list@matronics.
com> =0ASent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 8:52 AM=0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: N819
PR Nose Gear Failure=0A=0A=0A=0AGalin,=0A=C2-=0ACatto has made some impro
vements to his prop and he has=C2-added=C2-an optional nickel=C2-meta
l leading edge which should eliminate any issues with the rain.=C2- There
are photos of the updated prop on his website.=C2- http://www.cattoprops
.com/=0A=C2-=0ANot sure what his lead time is now but worth a look see.
=0A=C2-=0ABob=0A=C2-=0APS: Once you get the nose gear off please take s
ome photos and post for us to see.=0A=0AFrom: Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gma
il.com>=0ATo: "kis-list@matronics.com" <kis-list@matronics.com> =0ASent: Th
ursday, July 24, 2014 7:46 AM=0ASubject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Fai
lure=0A=0A=0A=0AInitial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall damage
at all, so the actual damage is not a big deal. Engine will be completely o
verhauled, a new nose gear installed, a new propeller installed, some fiber
glass work done and the airplane will be better than before. The airplane i
s a whole lot stronger than it looks.=0A=C2-=0AThe rear pin on the landin
g gear "H" bracket=C2-broke letting the entire assembly rotate 180 degree
s backwards. Once this happened the main tube held up for a little bit but
eventually collapsed under the different stress. I will ask Lyle if he can
make the landing gear rear pin a little bigger to better withstand the land
ing loads.=0A=C2-=0AI will definitely look at moving the=C2-main gear a
n inch or two further forward but not sure if it can be done at this stage.
The other option is to go with a CATTO composite prop, which is=C2-light
er than the SENSENICH=C2-aluminum prop I have, but composite props and ra
in don't mix very well and I fly real IMC.=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Wed, Jul 23, 2014
at 10:47 PM, Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net> wrote:=0A=0A--> KIS-Lis
t message posted by: Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>=0A>=0A>Hello Ga
lin,=0A>=0A>I have seen quotes from under $2000 to about $4000 for a tear d
own and inspection on a certified IO-360 so while not cheap it is not too e
xpensive.=0A>=0A>I know I am about to sound like a broken record but the is
sue with the nose gear is the main gear placement. =C2-As designed and as
most are built the main gear is WAY too far back. =C2-This places much m
ore load on the nose gear and contributes to nose slam and Pilot induced os
cillation. =C2-Currently the TR-4 has about 33% of the weight on the nose
gear empty. =C2-At no time should it be over 25% (most forward CG) and t
ypically should be about 10% at mid aft CG. =C2-At far aft CG it should b
e in the single digits. =C2-Actually if you load to absolute aft CG and p
ush the tail to the ground it should almost or even stay there.=0A>=0A>Ever
yone, move your main gear forward to save your nose gear, engine and prop.
=C2-This is an easy and cheap change and I know you will love it once you
have done it. =C2-And so will your nose gear.=0A>=0A>Mark=0A>=0A>-----Or
iginal Message-----=0A>=0A>From: Galin Hernandez=0A>=0A>Sent: Jul 23, 2014
8:45 AM=0A>=0A>=0A>To: "kis-list@matronics.com"=0A>=0A>Subject: Re: KIS-Lis
t: N819PR Nose Gear Failure=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>THANKS for the info. I am meetin
g with a mechanic today for his opinion. I have decided not to do the work
myself (too emotionally involved) and have an impartial person help me with
the decision. At least the airplane is in my hangar already so there is no
need to move it.=0A>=0A>=C2-I don't think it will be written off as a to
tal loss but lets see what happens. I like the idea of maybe using the RV-1
0 nose gear but am afraid it might be too heavy making the nose drop during
landing even more pronounced.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 4:15
AM, =C2-<Keith.Miller@esa.int> wrote:=0A>=0A>=0A>--> KIS-List message pos
ted by: Keith.Miller@esa.int=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Galin,=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>I know
=C2-how your feeling , since i had a nose gear failure on my KIS (2)=0A>
=0A>just after i completed her . =C2-It was a very bad =C2-nights sleep
for me , and=0A>=0A>even worse after the insurance man =C2-turned up , s
ince it doesn't take much=0A>=0A>for the insurance company to =C2-conside
r a right off , but i was not accepting=0A>=0A>that and made a deal with th
em to settle for a lower amount plus the plane=0A>=0A>back . in the end =C2
-it took an engine strip down and rebuild, new Prop, =C2-a new=0A>=0A>n
ose gear from Lyle ,a bit of =C2-glass fibre and paint and she has been f
lying=0A>=0A>great =C2-for the last 11 years. The =C2-engine strip down
=C2- showed no =C2-internal=0A>=0A>damage and was completed for just
=C2-3500 pounds ( 5.5K$). =C2-it took me 6 months=0A>=0A>to get back in
the air but i =C2-ended up about 6 K pounds in profit . =C2-i would=0A
>=0A>be surprised if there was any =C2-damage to the =C2-firewall from
a =C2-slow taxi nose=0A>=0A>gear failure.=0A>=0A>The good =C2-thing is
that the airframe and wings were not damaged, take the=0A>=0A>wings off , r
ent a trailer and get her home =C2-and into the =C2-workshop , pour=0A>
=0A>yourself a stiff drink and =C2-make a list of what is required to get
back in=0A>=0A>the air=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2-Engine strip and rebuild( 6K),
(plus maybe =C2-2K for parts).=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2-New Prop =C2-and spi
nner (8K)=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2-New Nose gear =C2-(1K)=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2-
Bit of paint ( 1K )=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2-Repairs to the =C2-cowling =C2-
=C2-(1K)=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2-Labour ( if you can't do it yourself ) 5K m
ax=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Seriously consider making a deal =C2- with the insuranc
e to get back the =C2-plane=0A>=0A>if they tell you it's scrap . =C2-ev
en if you cant do the work yourself there=0A>=0A>are plenty of people out t
here with the skill who can.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Does any body know if Lyle is s
till making parts =C2-? =C2-and does anyone want up=0A>=0A>update/ corr
ect =C2-my estimates above =C2-.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Keith=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>From: =C2- Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>=0A>=0A>To:
=C2- =C2- "kis-list@matronics.com" <kis-list@matronics.com>,=0A>=0A>Da
te: =C2- 07/23/2014 06:41 AM=0A>=0A>Subject: =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-R
e: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure=0A>=0A>Sent by: =C2- =C2- =C2-
=C2-owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Th
e RV-10 nosegear looks like it would be a possible conversion, if vans will
=0A>=0A>sell them... =C2-Or a taildragger conversion....=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>h
ttp://lh5.ggpht.com/_1BUCUXrqtsE/TJqBGCqCJYI/AAAAAAAAAR8/eL7IweRFt3A/s800/r
v-10.jpg=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Scott=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On Jul 22, 2014, at 4:28 PM, G
alin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com> wrote:=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2
- I am not smart enough to design anything like that on my own. If it was
=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- electrical or electronic THAT I can do. ;)=0A>
=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:56 PM, C
onners, Jerry L <=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- jconners@dot.state.nv.us> wro
te:=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- I would design myself and then have
it fabricated in a manner that=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Lyle has
done in the pastno short cuts in the construction and using=0A>=0A
>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Paul Lamar=99s worst case math to determ
ine the loads on impact.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2- From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On
Behalf Of Galin Hernandez=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Sent: Tuesday
, July 22, 2014 1:53 PM=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2-
=C2- To: kis-list@matronics.com=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Subje
ct: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Jerry; Do you know where to get
a "new and improved" nose gear? One=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- rat
ed for about 150,000lbs? ;)=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Conners, Jerry
L <=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- jconners@dot.state.nv.us> wrote:=0A
>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- The damage looks minimal
tear down inspection being the most costly=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2-
=C2- =C2- repair (with resulting needed replacement parts)then
a new and=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- improved new nose gear
hope the aircraft returns to the air soon=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A
>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- From: owner-kis-list-server@ma
tronics.com [mailto:=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- owner-kis-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2-
=C2- Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:44 PM=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2
- To: kis-list@matronics.com=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Subject:
Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- With it being insured at only $75,0
00, it might wind up being more=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- than 50%
just to repair it. If I do part it out, a GREAT plug-n-play=0A>=0A>=C2-
=C2- =C2- =C2- instrument panel for a TR-4 will be available real soo
n.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2
- ;)=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2-
=C2- On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Alfred Rosa <fredorosa@gmail.com>
=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- wrote:=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2-
=C2- =C2- =C2- So sorry to hear this Galin. =C2-It doesn't look bad
enough to part-out=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- but I know how insur
ance companies are.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2-
=C2- =C2- =C2- Al Rosa=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A
>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Galin Hernand
ez <galinhdz@gmail.com>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- wrote:=0A>=0A>
=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Yesterday, after a day of flyin
g, the nose gear on my TR-4 failed=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- just
before I exited the runway. The landings (three that day) were=0A>=0A>=C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2- super smooth, which is not very common for me. I a
m not a mechanical=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- engineer and didn't s
leep at a Holiday Inn Express but preliminary=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2-
=C2- check looks like the front pin on the nose gear assembly failed. Whe
n=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- I went to make the right turn off the
runway, the rear pin then=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- failed which l
et the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees to the left.=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2-
=C2- =C2- Once the assembly was 180 degrees off center the tube couldn
't hold=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- the stress, it failed and the wh
ole thing collapsed.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2-
=C2- =C2- =C2- The worst part is if I would have taken the previous e
xit it would=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- have happened on the non-mo
vement area of the airport. But since I=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-
taxied to an exit closer to my hangar it happened on the runway so=0A>=0A>
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- now the FAA is involved. Like I said, "Murphy i
s alive and well in=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- aviation".=0A>=0A>
=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Dependi
ng on the firewall condition it could cost more to repair than=0A>=0A>=C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2- the insured value. When the insurance company tell
s me what they are=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- going to do about the
claim I will make a decision to repair or to=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2-
=C2- part the airplane out.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Here are some photo's of the airplane on th
e runway.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2
- =C2- :(=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
=0A>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navi
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nvironment before printing this email.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=
===========0A>=0A>=C2-target="_blank">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List=0A>=0A>============0A>
=0A>MS -=0A>=0A>k">http://forums.matronics.com/=0A>=0A>======
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=================
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
As a rough estimate the main wheels should be about 6 inches aft of the aft CG.
This is based on the contact point being 10 degrees aft of the CG location (in
2D side view draw a line from the CG down to the ground but angled 10 deg aft).
So if you push your tail to the ground when loaded to the aft CG and you
can tilt the plane 10 degrees tail down then the plane will balance at that point.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Galin Hernandez
Sent: Jul 24, 2014 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
How much further forward should the main tires end up after this?
On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net> wrote:
Moving the main gear forward is very simple. You do not more the gear where it
attaches to the fuselage you just angle it forward with a FLOX wedge. On my
TR1 I unbolted the main gear and dropped it down. Then I made two small wood blocks
about 3/8" thick to use as spacers. I placed these on the trailing edge
of the main gear center section and test bolted the gear in place now angled
forward due to the spacers. Remove and adjust as needed. When I was happy with
the new wheel location I lowered the gear again, covered it with packing tape
for a release, piled FLOX on the top of the gear and bolted it in place with
the spacers holding the angle. This took me about 3 hours total.
Some may be thinking that having the gear angled forward will put more stress on
the attachment. Actually the opposite is true. On landing there are two main
forces, the vertical load due to the rate of decent and the horizontal load
due to the rapid spin up of the wheels. This horizontal load is the main stress
on the attachment and is reduced due to the forward angle.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Galin Hernandez
Sent: Jul 24, 2014 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Initial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall damage at all, so the actual
damage is not a big deal. Engine will be completely overhauled, a new nose gear
installed, a new propeller installed, some fiberglass work done and the airplane
will be better than before. The airplane is a whole lot stronger than it
looks.
The rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket broke letting the entire assembly
rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this happened the main tube held up for a
little bit but eventually collapsed under the different stress. I will ask Lyle
if he can make the landing gear rear pin a little bigger to better withstand
the landing loads.
I will definitely look at moving the main gear an inch or two further forward
but not sure if it can be done at this stage. The other option is to go with a
CATTO composite prop, which is lighter than the SENSENICH aluminum prop I have,
but composite props and rain don't mix very well and I fly real IMC.
On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 10:47 PM, Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net> wrote:
Hello Galin,
I have seen quotes from under $2000 to about $4000 for a tear down and inspection
on a certified IO-360 so while not cheap it is not too expensive.
I know I am about to sound like a broken record but the issue with the nose gear
is the main gear placement. As designed and as most are built the main gear
is WAY too far back. This places much more load on the nose gear and contributes
to nose slam and Pilot induced oscillation. Currently the TR-4 has about
33% of the weight on the nose gear empty. At no time should it be over 25% (most
forward CG) and typically should be about 10% at mid aft CG. At far aft
CG it should be in the single digits. Actually if you load to absolute aft CG
and push the tail to the ground it should almost or even stay there.
Everyone, move your main gear forward to save your nose gear, engine and prop.
This is an easy and cheap change and I know you will love it once you have done
it. And so will your nose gear.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Galin Hernandez
Sent: Jul 23, 2014 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
THANKS for the info. I am meeting with a mechanic today for his opinion. I have
decided not to do the work myself (too emotionally involved) and have an impartial
person help me with the decision. At least the airplane is in my hangar
already so there is no need to move it.
I don't think it will be written off as a total loss but lets see what happens.
I like the idea of maybe using the RV-10 nose gear but am afraid it might be
too heavy making the nose drop during landing even more pronounced.
On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 4:15 AM, <Keith.Miller@esa.int> wrote:
Galin,
I know how your feeling , since i had a nose gear failure on my KIS (2)
just after i completed her . It was a very bad nights sleep for me , and
even worse after the insurance man turned up , since it doesn't take much
for the insurance company to consider a right off , but i was not accepting
that and made a deal with them to settle for a lower amount plus the plane
back . in the end it took an engine strip down and rebuild, new Prop, a new
nose gear from Lyle ,a bit of glass fibre and paint and she has been flying
great for the last 11 years. The engine strip down showed no internal
damage and was completed for just 3500 pounds ( 5.5K$). it took me 6 months
to get back in the air but i ended up about 6 K pounds in profit . i would
be surprised if there was any damage to the firewall from a slow taxi nose
gear failure.
The good thing is that the airframe and wings were not damaged, take the
wings off , rent a trailer and get her home and into the workshop , pour
yourself a stiff drink and make a list of what is required to get back in
the air
Engine strip and rebuild( 6K), (plus maybe 2K for parts).
New Prop and spinner (8K)
New Nose gear (1K)
Bit of paint ( 1K )
Repairs to the cowling (1K)
Labour ( if you can't do it yourself ) 5K max
Seriously consider making a deal with the insurance to get back the plane
if they tell you it's scrap . even if you cant do the work yourself there
are plenty of people out there with the skill who can.
Does any body know if Lyle is still making parts ? and does anyone want up
update/ correct my estimates above .
Keith
From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Sent by: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
The RV-10 nosegear looks like it would be a possible conversion, if vans will
sell them... Or a taildragger conversion....
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1BUCUXrqtsE/TJqBGCqCJYI/AAAAAAAAAR8/eL7IweRFt3A/s800/rv-10.jpg
Scott
On Jul 22, 2014, at 4:28 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com> wrote:
I am not smart enough to design anything like that on my own. If it was
electrical or electronic THAT I can do. ;)
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:56 PM, Conners, Jerry L <
jconners@dot.state.nv.us> wrote:
I would design myself and then have it fabricated in a manner that
Lyle has done in the pastno short cuts in the construction and using
Paul Lamars worst case math to determine the loads on impact.
From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:53 PM
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
Jerry; Do you know where to get a "new and improved" nose gear? One
rated for about 150,000lbs? ;)
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Conners, Jerry L <
jconners@dot.state.nv.us> wrote:
The damage looks minimaltear down inspection being the most costly
repair (with resulting needed replacement parts)then a new and
improved new nose gearhope the aircraft returns to the air soon
From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:44 PM
To: kis-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
With it being insured at only $75,000, it might wind up being more
than 50% just to repair it. If I do part it out, a GREAT plug-n-play
instrument panel for a TR-4 will be available real soon.
;)
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Alfred Rosa <fredorosa@gmail.com>
wrote:
So sorry to hear this Galin. It doesn't look bad enough to part-out
but I know how insurance companies are.
Al Rosa
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com>
wrote:
Yesterday, after a day of flying, the nose gear on my TR-4 failed
just before I exited the runway. The landings (three that day) were
super smooth, which is not very common for me. I am not a mechanical
engineer and didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express but preliminary
check looks like the front pin on the nose gear assembly failed. When
I went to make the right turn off the runway, the rear pin then
failed which let the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees to the left.
Once the assembly was 180 degrees off center the tube couldn't hold
the stress, it failed and the whole thing collapsed.
The worst part is if I would have taken the previous exit it would
have happened on the non-movement area of the airport. But since I
taxied to an exit closer to my hangar it happened on the runway so
now the FAA is involved. Like I said, "Murphy is alive and well in
aviation".
Depending on the firewall condition it could cost more to repair than
the insured value. When the insurance company tells me what they are
going to do about the claim I will make a decision to repair or to
part the airplane out.
Here are some photo's of the airplane on the runway.
:(
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
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IS-List Email Forum -
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Message 10
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|
Subject: | Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
Hi Galin,
The whirlwind ground adjustable props are approved for rain and dirt strips.
They have a nickel leading edge. People on the vans site say to expect ab
out a 20lb weight savings over a metal prop and a few knots.
Are you concidering any engine modifications during the overhaul? Having th
e heads ported and flow matched is pretty common these days even on certifie
d engines. I run ported/balanced heads and 10:1 forged pistons in my 360 w
hich combined is worth 8-10% more power for a given fuel flow and they modif
ied the case so oil sprays on the back of the piston to cool them. Skydynam
ics makes a high lift rocker arm kit that I do not have. I usually do not r
un my engine over 180 HP, so the point of the mods is power/efficiency at al
titude and during hot/high takeoffs.
It may seem risky to deviate from the lycoming standard, but a 360 with fuel
injection, ported heads and 10:1 pistons has been the standard homebuilt bu
ild from performance shops like Lycon in CA for about 10 years now.
Anyhow, food for thought...
Scott
> On Jul 24, 2014, at 5:46 AM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Initial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall damage at all, so the a
ctual damage is not a big deal. Engine will be completely overhauled, a new n
ose gear installed, a new propeller installed, some fiberglass work done and
the airplane will be better than before. The airplane is a whole lot strong
er than it looks.
>
> The rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket broke letting the entire asse
mbly rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this happened the main tube held up f
or a little bit but eventually collapsed under the different stress. I will a
sk Lyle if he can make the landing gear rear pin a little bigger to better w
ithstand the landing loads.
>
> I will definitely look at moving the main gear an inch or two further forw
ard but not sure if it can be done at this stage. The other option is to go w
ith a CATTO composite prop, which is lighter than the SENSENICH aluminum pro
p I have, but composite props and rain don't mix very well and I fly real IM
C.
>
>
>> On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 10:47 PM, Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net> w
rote:
>>
>> Hello Galin,
>>
>> I have seen quotes from under $2000 to about $4000 for a tear down and in
spection on a certified IO-360 so while not cheap it is not too expensive.
>>
>> I know I am about to sound like a broken record but the issue with the no
se gear is the main gear placement. As designed and as most are built the m
ain gear is WAY too far back. This places much more load on the nose gear a
nd contributes to nose slam and Pilot induced oscillation. Currently the TR
-4 has about 33% of the weight on the nose gear empty. At no time should it
be over 25% (most forward CG) and typically should be about 10% at mid aft C
G. At far aft CG it should be in the single digits. Actually if you load t
o absolute aft CG and push the tail to the ground it should almost or even s
tay there.
>>
>> Everyone, move your main gear forward to save your nose gear, engine and p
rop. This is an easy and cheap change and I know you will love it once you h
ave done it. And so will your nose gear.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: Galin Hernandez
>>
>> Sent: Jul 23, 2014 8:45 AM
>>
>> To: "kis-list@matronics.com"
>>
>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>>
>>
>>
>> THANKS for the info. I am meeting with a mechanic today for his opinion. I
have decided not to do the work myself (too emotionally involved) and have a
n impartial person help me with the decision. At least the airplane is in my
hangar already so there is no need to move it.
>>
>> I don't think it will be written off as a total loss but lets see what h
appens. I like the idea of maybe using the RV-10 nose gear but am afraid it m
ight be too heavy making the nose drop during landing even more pronounced.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 4:15 AM, <Keith.Miller@esa.int> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Galin,
>>
>>
>>
>> I know how your feeling , since i had a nose gear failure on my KIS (2)
>>
>> just after i completed her . It was a very bad nights sleep for me , an
d
>>
>> even worse after the insurance man turned up , since it doesn't take muc
h
>>
>> for the insurance company to consider a right off , but i was not accept
ing
>>
>> that and made a deal with them to settle for a lower amount plus the plan
e
>>
>> back . in the end it took an engine strip down and rebuild, new Prop, a
new
>>
>> nose gear from Lyle ,a bit of glass fibre and paint and she has been fly
ing
>>
>> great for the last 11 years. The engine strip down showed no interna
l
>>
>> damage and was completed for just 3500 pounds ( 5.5K$). it took me 6 mo
nths
>>
>> to get back in the air but i ended up about 6 K pounds in profit . i wo
uld
>>
>> be surprised if there was any damage to the firewall from a slow taxi n
ose
>>
>> gear failure.
>>
>> The good thing is that the airframe and wings were not damaged, take the
>>
>> wings off , rent a trailer and get her home and into the workshop , pou
r
>>
>> yourself a stiff drink and make a list of what is required to get back i
n
>>
>> the air
>>
>> Engine strip and rebuild( 6K), (plus maybe 2K for parts).
>>
>> New Prop and spinner (8K)
>>
>> New Nose gear (1K)
>>
>> Bit of paint ( 1K )
>>
>> Repairs to the cowling (1K)
>>
>> Labour ( if you can't do it yourself ) 5K max
>>
>>
>>
>> Seriously consider making a deal with the insurance to get back the pl
ane
>>
>> if they tell you it's scrap . even if you cant do the work yourself ther
e
>>
>> are plenty of people out there with the skill who can.
>>
>>
>>
>> Does any body know if Lyle is still making parts ? and does anyone want
up
>>
>> update/ correct my estimates above .
>>
>>
>>
>> Keith
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>
>>
>> To: "kis-list@matronics.com" <kis-list@matronics.com>,
>>
>> Date: 07/23/2014 06:41 AM
>>
>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>>
>> Sent by: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The RV-10 nosegear looks like it would be a possible conversion, if vans w
ill
>>
>> sell them... Or a taildragger conversion....
>>
>>
>>
>> http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1BUCUXrqtsE/TJqBGCqCJYI/AAAAAAAAAR8/eL7IweRFt3A/s80
0/rv-10.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>> Scott
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 22, 2014, at 4:28 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I am not smart enough to design anything like that on my own. If it
was
>>
>> electrical or electronic THAT I can do. ;)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:56 PM, Conners, Jerry L <
>>
>> jconners@dot.state.nv.us> wrote:
>>
>> I would design myself and then have it fabricated in a manner tha
t
>>
>> Lyle has done in the pastno short cuts in the constructi
on and using
>>
>> Paul Lamar=99s worst case math to determine the loads on im
pact.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
>>
>> owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:53 PM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>>
>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jerry; Do you know where to get a "new and improved" nose gear? O
ne
>>
>> rated for about 150,000lbs? ;)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Conners, Jerry L <
>>
>> jconners@dot.state.nv.us> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The damage looks minimaltear down inspection being the m
ost costly
>>
>> repair (with resulting needed replacement parts)then a n
ew and
>>
>> improved new nose gearhope the aircraft returns to the a
ir soon
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
>>
>> owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:44 PM
>>
>> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>>
>> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> With it being insured at only $75,000, it might wind up being mor
e
>>
>> than 50% just to repair it. If I do part it out, a GREAT plug-n-p
lay
>>
>> instrument panel for a TR-4 will be available real soon.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ;)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Alfred Rosa <fredorosa@gmail.com
>
>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> So sorry to hear this Galin. It doesn't look bad enough to part-
out
>>
>> but I know how insurance companies are.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Al Rosa
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.
com>
>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yesterday, after a day of flying, the nose gear on my TR-4 failed
>>
>> just before I exited the runway. The landings (three that day) we
re
>>
>> super smooth, which is not very common for me. I am not a mechani
cal
>>
>> engineer and didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express but preliminar
y
>>
>> check looks like the front pin on the nose gear assembly failed. W
hen
>>
>> I went to make the right turn off the runway, the rear pin then
>>
>> failed which let the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees to the le
ft.
>>
>> Once the assembly was 180 degrees off center the tube couldn't ho
ld
>>
>> the stress, it failed and the whole thing collapsed.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The worst part is if I would have taken the previous exit it woul
d
>>
>> have happened on the non-movement area of the airport. But since I
>>
>> taxied to an exit closer to my hangar it happened on the runway s
o
>>
>> now the FAA is involved. Like I said, "Murphy is alive and well i
n
>>
>> aviation".
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Depending on the firewall condition it could cost more to repair t
han
>>
>> the insured value. When the insurance company tells me what they a
re
>>
>> going to do about the claim I will make a decision to repair or t
o
>>
>> part the airplane out.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Here are some photo's of the airplane on the runway.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> :(
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
>>
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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|
Subject: | Re: N819PR Nose Gear Failure |
I may just have to fly down to your place and do it there. :)
On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 10:28 AM, Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>
> As a rough estimate the main wheels should be about 6 inches aft of the
> aft CG. This is based on the contact point being 10 degrees aft of the C
G
> location (in 2D side view draw a line from the CG down to the ground but
> angled 10 deg aft). So if you push your tail to the ground when loaded t
o
> the aft CG and you can tilt the plane 10 degrees tail down then the plane
> will balance at that point.
>
> Mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Galin Hernandez
>
> Sent: Jul 24, 2014 9:21 AM
>
> To: "kis-list@matronics.com"
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>
>
> How much further forward should the main tires end up after this?
>
> On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Moving the main gear forward is very simple. You do not more the gear
> where it attaches to the fuselage you just angle it forward with a FLOX
> wedge. On my TR1 I unbolted the main gear and dropped it down. Then I ma
de
> two small wood blocks about 3/8" thick to use as spacers. I placed these
> on the trailing edge of the main gear center section and test bolted the
> gear in place now angled forward due to the spacers. Remove and adjust a
s
> needed. When I was happy with the new wheel location I lowered the gear
> again, covered it with packing tape for a release, piled FLOX on the top
of
> the gear and bolted it in place with the spacers holding the angle. This
> took me about 3 hours total.
>
>
> Some may be thinking that having the gear angled forward will put more
> stress on the attachment. Actually the opposite is true. On landing the
re
> are two main forces, the vertical load due to the rate of decent and the
> horizontal load due to the rapid spin up of the wheels. This horizontal
> load is the main stress on the attachment and is reduced due to the forwa
rd
> angle.
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> From: Galin Hernandez
>
>
> Sent: Jul 24, 2014 8:46 AM
>
>
> To: "kis-list@matronics.com"
>
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>
>
> Initial check by the mechanic indicates no firewall damage at all, so the
> actual damage is not a big deal. Engine will be completely overhauled, a
> new nose gear installed, a new propeller installed, some fiberglass work
> done and the airplane will be better than before. The airplane is a whole
> lot stronger than it looks.
>
>
> The rear pin on the landing gear "H" bracket broke letting the entire
> assembly rotate 180 degrees backwards. Once this happened the main tube
> held up for a little bit but eventually collapsed under the different
> stress. I will ask Lyle if he can make the landing gear rear pin a little
> bigger to better withstand the landing loads.
>
>
> I will definitely look at moving the main gear an inch or two further
> forward but not sure if it can be done at this stage. The other option is
> to go with a CATTO composite prop, which is lighter than the SENSENICH
> aluminum prop I have, but composite props and rain don't mix very well an
d
> I fly real IMC.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 10:47 PM, Mark Kettering <mantafs@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hello Galin,
>
>
> I have seen quotes from under $2000 to about $4000 for a tear down and
> inspection on a certified IO-360 so while not cheap it is not too expensi
ve.
>
>
> I know I am about to sound like a broken record but the issue with the
> nose gear is the main gear placement. As designed and as most are built
> the main gear is WAY too far back. This places much more load on the nos
e
> gear and contributes to nose slam and Pilot induced oscillation. Current
ly
> the TR-4 has about 33% of the weight on the nose gear empty. At no time
> should it be over 25% (most forward CG) and typically should be about 10%
> at mid aft CG. At far aft CG it should be in the single digits. Actuall
y
> if you load to absolute aft CG and push the tail to the ground it should
> almost or even stay there.
>
>
> Everyone, move your main gear forward to save your nose gear, engine and
> prop. This is an easy and cheap change and I know you will love it once
> you have done it. And so will your nose gear.
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> From: Galin Hernandez
>
>
> Sent: Jul 23, 2014 8:45 AM
>
>
> To: "kis-list@matronics.com"
>
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>
>
> THANKS for the info. I am meeting with a mechanic today for his opinion.
I
> have decided not to do the work myself (too emotionally involved) and hav
e
> an impartial person help me with the decision. At least the airplane is i
n
> my hangar already so there is no need to move it.
>
>
> I don't think it will be written off as a total loss but lets see what
> happens. I like the idea of maybe using the RV-10 nose gear but am afraid
> it might be too heavy making the nose drop during landing even more
> pronounced.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 4:15 AM, <Keith.Miller@esa.int> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Galin,
>
>
> I know how your feeling , since i had a nose gear failure on my KIS (2)
>
>
> just after i completed her . It was a very bad nights sleep for me , an
d
>
>
> even worse after the insurance man turned up , since it doesn't take muc
h
>
>
> for the insurance company to consider a right off , but i was not
> accepting
>
>
> that and made a deal with them to settle for a lower amount plus the plan
e
>
>
> back . in the end it took an engine strip down and rebuild, new Prop, a
> new
>
>
> nose gear from Lyle ,a bit of glass fibre and paint and she has been
> flying
>
>
> great for the last 11 years. The engine strip down showed no interna
l
>
>
> damage and was completed for just 3500 pounds ( 5.5K$). it took me 6
> months
>
>
> to get back in the air but i ended up about 6 K pounds in profit . i
> would
>
>
> be surprised if there was any damage to the firewall from a slow taxi
> nose
>
>
> gear failure.
>
>
> The good thing is that the airframe and wings were not damaged, take the
>
>
> wings off , rent a trailer and get her home and into the workshop , pou
r
>
>
> yourself a stiff drink and make a list of what is required to get back i
n
>
>
> the air
>
>
> Engine strip and rebuild( 6K), (plus maybe 2K for parts).
>
>
> New Prop and spinner (8K)
>
>
> New Nose gear (1K)
>
>
> Bit of paint ( 1K )
>
>
> Repairs to the cowling (1K)
>
>
> Labour ( if you can't do it yourself ) 5K max
>
>
> Seriously consider making a deal with the insurance to get back the
> plane
>
>
> if they tell you it's scrap . even if you cant do the work yourself ther
e
>
>
> are plenty of people out there with the skill who can.
>
>
> Does any body know if Lyle is still making parts ? and does anyone want
> up
>
>
> update/ correct my estimates above .
>
>
> Keith
>
>
> From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2@yahoo.com>
>
>
> To: "kis-list@matronics.com" <kis-list@matronics.com>,
>
>
> Date: 07/23/2014 06:41 AM
>
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>
>
> Sent by: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com
>
>
> The RV-10 nosegear looks like it would be a possible conversion, if vans
> will
>
>
> sell them... Or a taildragger conversion....
>
>
> http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1BUCUXrqtsE/TJqBGCqCJYI/AAAAAAAAAR8/eL7IweRFt3A/s80
0/rv-10.jpg
>
>
> Scott
>
>
> On Jul 22, 2014, at 4:28 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I am not smart enough to design anything like that on my own. If it
> was
>
>
> electrical or electronic THAT I can do. ;)
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:56 PM, Conners, Jerry L <
>
>
> jconners@dot.state.nv.us> wrote:
>
>
> I would design myself and then have it fabricated in a manner tha
t
>
>
> Lyle has done in the pastno short cuts in the constructi
on and
> using
>
>
> Paul Lamar=99s worst case math to determine the loads on im
pact.
>
>
> From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
>
>
> owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
>
>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:53 PM
>
>
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>
>
> Jerry; Do you know where to get a "new and improved" nose gear? O
ne
>
>
> rated for about 150,000lbs? ;)
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Conners, Jerry L <
>
>
> jconners@dot.state.nv.us> wrote:
>
>
> The damage looks minimaltear down inspection being the m
ost costly
>
>
> repair (with resulting needed replacement parts)then a n
ew and
>
>
> improved new nose gearhope the aircraft returns to the a
ir soon
>
>
> From: owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
>
>
> owner-kis-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin Hernandez
>
>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:44 PM
>
>
> To: kis-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Subject: Re: KIS-List: N819PR Nose Gear Failure
>
>
> With it being insured at only $75,000, it might wind up being mor
e
>
>
> than 50% just to repair it. If I do part it out, a GREAT
> plug-n-play
>
>
> instrument panel for a TR-4 will be available real soon.
>
>
> ;)
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Alfred Rosa <fredorosa@gmail.com
>
>
> wrote:
>
>
> So sorry to hear this Galin. It doesn't look bad enough to
> part-out
>
>
> but I know how insurance companies are.
>
>
> Al Rosa
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Galin Hernandez <
> galinhdz@gmail.com>
>
>
> wrote:
>
>
> Yesterday, after a day of flying, the nose gear on my TR-4 failed
>
>
> just before I exited the runway. The landings (three that day) we
re
>
>
> super smooth, which is not very common for me. I am not a
> mechanical
>
>
> engineer and didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express but preliminar
y
>
>
> check looks like the front pin on the nose gear assembly failed.
> When
>
>
> I went to make the right turn off the runway, the rear pin then
>
>
> failed which let the entire assembly rotate 180 degrees to the
> left.
>
>
> Once the assembly was 180 degrees off center the tube couldn't ho
ld
>
>
> the stress, it failed and the whole thing collapsed.
>
>
> The worst part is if I would have taken the previous exit it woul
d
>
>
> have happened on the non-movement area of the airport. But since
I
>
>
> taxied to an exit closer to my hangar it happened on the runway s
o
>
>
> now the FAA is involved. Like I said, "Murphy is alive and well i
n
>
>
> aviation".
>
>
> Depending on the firewall condition it could cost more to repair
> than
>
>
> the insured value. When the insurance company tells me what they
> are
>
>
> going to do about the claim I will make a decision to repair or t
o
>
>
> part the airplane out.
>
>
> Here are some photo's of the airplane on the runway.
>
>
> :(
>
>
> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
>
>
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>
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