Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:53 AM - tail wheel (broschart)
2. 03:11 AM - Re: tail wheel (michel)
3. 03:47 AM - Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 04/18/04 (tom)
4. 04:47 AM - Kitfox on Full Lotus Floats (Marc Arseneault)
5. 05:46 AM - tail wheel/ground loop (Dee Young)
6. 05:53 AM - Re: Crosswind limits (Gary Algate)
7. 06:57 AM - Re: Crosswind limits ...Spin, (Aerobatics@aol.com)
8. 07:06 AM - Re: tail wheel/ground loop (michel)
9. 07:16 AM - Re: tail wheel (David & Maria Lumgair)
10. 07:46 AM - Annual Inspection (W Duke)
11. 07:57 AM - Re: Annual Inspection (Don Pearsall)
12. 09:08 AM - Re: tail wheel/ground loop I am a member too! (Aerobatics@aol.com)
13. 09:54 AM - Re: Annual Inspection (jeff.hays@aselia.com)
14. 10:16 AM - Re: tail wheel (Gary Algate)
15. 11:34 AM - Re: tail wheel/ground loop (RiteAngle3@aol.com)
16. 11:49 AM - Re: tail wheel/ground loop D 18, wow (Aerobatics@aol.com)
17. 01:48 PM - Re: Annual Inspection (W Duke)
18. 03:28 PM - Is it just me? (Randy Daughenbaugh)
19. 04:31 PM - Re: Kifox Trailer PRICE REDUCTION (Bruce Lina)
20. 04:46 PM - Re: Is it just me? (Don Pearsall)
21. 08:06 PM - Dresser tires... (Aerobatics@aol.com)
22. 08:43 PM - Re: Dresser tires... (Jay Fabian)
23. 09:28 PM - Re: Dresser tires... (JMCBEAN)
Message 1
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: broschart <cfbflyer@localnet.com>
not having flown since october when i landed the other day i did a 360
around a runway light
that's a little unnerving so i disabled the tail wheel release, that
makes parking hard so i made up a u shaped wedge that releases the tail
wheel and stays in place till removed, works good with a little
inconvenience in parking
Have a good day - Charlie
Message 2
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: michel <michel@online.no>
>===== Original Message From broschart <cfbflyer@localnet.com>
>not having flown since october when i landed the other day i did a 360
>around a runway light.
Charlie, that raises a question I have asked myself ... and now, I ask the
list:
If a ground loop is started, is it better to let the tailwheel free-castoring
or not? Somehow I feel that if it is too late to avoid it, it might be as well
that the tail offers no resitance on the ground and let the inertia die away
by itself (even if it makes you feel dizzy in your head :-). Because if the
plane meets sideway drag on both main and tail wheels, won't that force the
plane to tilt until the outside wing touches the ground? And if that ground is
uneven, I think it will stop the spin and pull the plane on its nose.
I have now idea, I am just asking.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 04/18/04 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: tom <ditapo@yahoo.com>
Kitfox-List Digest Server <kitfox-list-digest@matronics.com> wrote:*
==================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
==================================================
Today's complete Kitfox-List Digest can be also be found in either
of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked
Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII
version of the Kitfox-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic
text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list/Digest.Kitfox-List.2004-04-18.html
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list/Digest.Kitfox-List.2004-04-18.txt
================================================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
================================================
Kitfox-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Sun 04/18/04: 4
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:48 AM - OT: To Kurt Schrader (Michel Verheughe)
2. 06:21 AM - Re: Gap Sealing Tape:shelf liner (Tom Jones)
3. 08:35 AM - Re: Crosswind limits (kerrjohna@comcast.net)
4. 10:34 PM - Re: Crosswind limits ...Spin, (jimshumaker)
________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
Time: 03:48:51 AM PST US
From: Michel Verheughe
Subject: Kitfox-List: OT: To Kurt Schrader
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe
Kurt,
I have tried twice to send you an email private but it bounces back. If you
have changed your address, please send me a note, thanks.
Michel
do not archive
________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
Time: 06:21:06 AM PST US
From: Tom Jones
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Gap Sealing Tape:shelf liner
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Tom Jones
> Doesn't sound like we can! :-) Name the store and if possible the
> product........will check that out too! I haven't a clue as to what to
look
> for and our local Wally World doesn't carry anything like that. Where,
how,
> and when..........
> Sid
Sid, here's one brand available at "Office Depot"
http://www.office-discounts-online.com/store/SchoolCraftMaterials_CraftAccessories/950816.asp
I use this for covering documents...check lists etc...it is very flexible
and seems to last forever. A 24 inch X 36 foot roll was $5.99.
Here's the company web site http://www.kittrich.com/
Click on "Magic Cover"
Tom Jones
________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
Time: 08:35:33 AM PST US
From: kerrjohna@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
practice slipping at your (slow) approach speed until you are comfortable with
the handling.
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Tc9008@aol.com
>
> On short field landing over trees, is it better to slow and pull the stick back
> to get your speed down or to slip down? my problem with slipping is the speed
at
> flare. it too hot to touch down.
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
Time: 10:34:18 PM PST US
From: "jimshumaker"
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits ...Spin,
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker"
In Salinas we have two of the worlds best acro pilots. Wayne Handley holds
the worlds record for most inverted flat spins. While doing some spin
testing for an Agricultural Aircraft company he found that although the
plane was difficult to get into a spin, it would not recover from one spin
mode without a spin chute deployment. Yes the plane had a long wing and was
short coupled.
Sean D Tucker stepped out of a Pitts he was practicing in when it would not
recover. Of course it recovered and flew away after he was gone.
So even certified, spin resistant and profesional pilot does not guaranty
spin recovery. Perhaps this is the reason spins are no longer required by
the FAA for licensing.
Jim Shumaker
----- Original Message -----
From:
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Crosswind limits ...Spin,
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
>
> Wow 25,000 hours? er um ...my total now is only around 600
>
> But, I design model, radio control aircraft for a living (past 25 years)
and
> the evolutionary process for us is very fast, allowing us to make many
> changes, easily and quickly. We can learn a lot.
>
> The KF is a great plane, and not so great. The KF 2 I own, I love, BUT,
its
> short coupled and under-finned. We would never even consider doing a
model
> this way. I can only imagine, that with an aft CG location, is a formula
for
> disaster. I speak only from practical experience from models. Once
spinning, I
> suspect it could go flat further making recovery very difficult.
>
> With a forward CG location, it MIGHT be OK? But man, no way I want to
take
> that chance.
>
> Spinning can vary a lot. When they test a production plane I bet the
process
> is under a wide CG range, different types of entry, different weights and
so
> on.
>
> Unless someone can prove to me it was done with a plane... I wont do
it....
>
> Rent an aerobat like a Pitts, Extra, Cessna aerobat etc. and get
> isntruction. There are many that are a blast.
>
> I still talk about my limited dual ( 4 hours) in a Pitts S2B wow! I
mean
> really big wow!
>
> It was with a pro, in a certified aerobatic plane and I had a chute.....
>
> Dave
>
> KF 2 582
>
>
Not in particular defense of Sean D. Tucker ( great great pilot, my hero) but the
cg would in most aerobatic airplanes move forward after the pilot bails out
and also the rotatiing inertia would be less so it could contribute as to why
so many airplanes recover after the pilot departs. But then I'm sure sometimes
it is us ham handed pilots screwing up the recovery too. To be on topic - the
kitfox raps up real tight in spins - in my opinion.
---------------------------------
Message 4
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| Subject: | Kitfox on Full Lotus Floats |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Marc Arseneault" <northernultralights@hotmail.com>
Would anybody have pics of a Kitfox on Full Lotus Floats that they would be able
to send to me? It would be greatly appreciated! Please email me off list at
northernultralights@hotmail .com.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Best Regards,
Marc Arseneault
Ontario Canada
Message 5
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| Subject: | tail wheel/ground loop |
Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 05:46:03 -0700
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>
No one likes to admit to having a gound loop and I am no exception. Unfortunetly
it happened to me.
I had installed some new tires on the Fox and took it out for a taxi test. It was
really hard to handle and wanted to go every where but staight. Run it down
the stripe and when I pulled back on the throttle to slow the tail started to
drop and she darted off to the right and came up on the left wing, I slammed
down on the left rudder and recovered but not before the left wing was on the
gound and I was off the paved strip (30' wide). The Fox came back up on the mains
and I turned around and headed back to the hanger with one scuffed drooped
tip. I have never fixed it but have a small piece of duct tape on it to remind
me. That was the day I learned about over inflated tires. I had 22 lbs in each
tire. Now I get a little red faced every time I'm asked about the duct tape
but it reminds me to not get cocky.
Dee Young
Model II N345DY
----- Original Message -----
From: michel<mailto:michel@online.no>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 3:11 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: tail wheel
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: michel <michel@online.no<mailto:michel@online.no>>
> Original Message From broschart <cfbflyer@localnet.com<mailto:cfbflyer@localnet.com>>
>not having flown since october when i landed the other day i did a 360
>around a runway light.
Charlie, that raises a question I have asked myself ... and now, I ask the
list:
If a ground loop is started, is it better to let the tailwheel free-castoring
or not? Somehow I feel that if it is too late to avoid it, it might be as well
that the tail offers no resitance on the ground and let the inertia die away
by itself (even if it makes you feel dizzy in your head :-). Because if the
plane meets sideway drag on both main and tail wheels, won't that force the
plane to tilt until the outside wing touches the ground? And if that ground is
uneven, I think it will stop the spin and pull the plane on its nose.
I have now idea, I am just asking.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 6
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| Subject: | Crosswind limits |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Gary Algate" <algate@attglobal.net>
Just a few comments on slipping:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my problem with slipping is the
speed at flare. it too hot to touch down.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
If you are slipping at about 1.3 stall then when you kick rudder to
straighten up there should be no speed gain and no problem in landing within
normal parameters.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> IF you have to slip to get into the field, should you really
be going in there?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
When you are landing in bush locations ie lakes and field etc with
inhospitable approaches a slip is probably the safest way to land as it
allows you to maintain a high approach for safety and a guarantee that you
will make the landing site should the engine fail. Once you have verified
that you will make the site a slip lowers you to the tree line without any
forward build up of speed.
It is generally practiced by most Bush pilots in N.Canada.
Gary
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Crosswind limits ...Spin, |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
I believe Art Schol (Im sure I spelt it wrong) was also killed in a spin, and
he was world class .... in a Pitts .... hmmm
I have had some acro training in a Pitts, spins included. The world really
really is a blur !
But, a KF, or any plane? Unless it has been proven and properly documented
.... I aint gona do it!
Right tool for the right job.....
and I love flying my KF like a Cub ....
Have fun,
Dave KF 2
Message 8
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| Subject: | tail wheel/ground loop |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: michel <michel@online.no>
>===== Original Message From "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com> =====
> Now I get a little red faced every time I'm asked about the duct tape but it
> reminds me to not get cocky.
- "Hi, I am Dee and I am a ground-looper!"
- (everybody) "Hi Dee!"
:-)
Thanks for sharing, Dee. I have only 70 hours in my Kitfox and haven't ground
looped yet ... it is only a matter of time. I remember last year, when I was
doing my high-speed taxi training, I considered fixing some kind of
metal/small wheels at the tip of my drooped wings. I had just seen the video
of a Kitfox builder who, on his first flight, shaved half of his wing tip much
like you did. As long as there is no structural damage to the wing/plane, it's
only our pride that suffers. I am glad I have you, guys, to share this with,
and learn more about our plane we enjoy so much.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 9
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David & Maria Lumgair" <dlummy@visi.net>
I was always taught that the castering tailwheel was essential to keeping a
looping plane from rolling over when the tail swings outside the mains.
Having been in a minor loop (thank God the grass was wet and the mains slid
a little - we stayed upright and the plane never even tipped) I can attest
to the fact that the wheel worked. Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "michel" <michel@online.no>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: tail wheel
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: michel <michel@online.no>
>
> >===== Original Message From broschart <cfbflyer@localnet.com>
> >not having flown since october when i landed the other day i did a 360
> >around a runway light.
>
> Charlie, that raises a question I have asked myself ... and now, I ask the
> list:
>
> If a ground loop is started, is it better to let the tailwheel
free-castoring
> or not? Somehow I feel that if it is too late to avoid it, it might be as
well
> that the tail offers no resitance on the ground and let the inertia die
away
> by itself (even if it makes you feel dizzy in your head :-). Because if
the
> plane meets sideway drag on both main and tail wheels, won't that force
the
> plane to tilt until the outside wing touches the ground? And if that
ground is
> uneven, I think it will stop the spin and pull the plane on its nose.
> I have now idea, I am just asking.
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Annual Inspection |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: W Duke <n981ms@yahoo.com>
Does anyone have an annual inspection checklist. An IO 240 specific list would
be most helpful but any would be welcomed. I am starting with the Skystar supplied
"final inspection checklist"
Thanks in advance.
Maxwell
---------------------------------
Message 11
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| Subject: | Annual Inspection |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net>
There is one at http://www.sportflight.com/kfb/. Just scroll down the page
and click on Annual Inspection Form. It is pretty complete and was
contributed by Don Lorentzen. It is in HTML, but you can import it into Word
or other word processor for modification.
Don Pearsall
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: tail wheel/ground loop I am a member too! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
In fact, I was very lucky and tip didn't touch....
At about 50 hours ..I learned a LOT from that....
There was a good crosswind, paved runway and I had a 10,000 hour, mostly
taildragger pilot on board giving him a ride.... now that was embarrassing! But
he expliained what I had done wrong, best mistake I ever made.
Essentially, the tail was not planted and at low speeds, the fin is blanketed
from fuse when it is low, the plane now has a mind of its own.... trick is
to get the tail wheel on ground to simple have traction...
Keep that transtition to a minimium
Now have about 250 hours and been fine..:-)
Practice does help!!
Dave KF 2
Message 13
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| Subject: | Annual Inspection |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff.hays@aselia.com" <jeff.hays@aselia.com>
Get a copy of the IO-240B maintenance manual from TCM. It specifies
what to check.
Original Message:
-----------------
From: W Duke n981ms@yahoo.com
Subject: Kitfox-List: Annual Inspection
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: W Duke <n981ms@yahoo.com>
Does anyone have an annual inspection checklist. An IO 240 specific list
would be most helpful but any would be welcomed. I am starting with the
Skystar supplied "final inspection checklist"
Thanks in advance.
Maxwell
---------------------------------
Message 14
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Gary Algate" <algate@attglobal.net>
The closest I've been to a ground loop was when I landed on tarmac with a
flat tyre.
I was able to keep it straight (well on the runway) until we'd almost
stopped but at about 5mph the tail wheel free castored and the plane looped
completely and ended up facing the wrong way up the middle of the active.
Nice thing was the wing never really dipped and my passenger and I were able
to hold the wheel up and push CIGVW back to the taxi way
Gary Algate
Lite2/582
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I was always taught that the castering tailwheel was essential to keeping a
looping plane from rolling over when the tail swings outside the mains.
Having been in a minor loop (thank God the grass was wet and the mains slid
a little - we stayed upright and the plane never even tipped) I can attest
to the fact that the wheel worked. Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "michel" <michel@online.no>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: tail wheel
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: tail wheel/ground loop |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: RiteAngle3@aol.com
Luck helps!
I have been very very lucky. Once I should have gone around in a Twin Beech
in '71, but someone upstairs grabbed the airplane and kept it going in the
correct direction, full load of VIP's tires squealing, smoke flying from them
then suddenly went straight, I sure had help from somewhere! I had already
yelled at the passengers to hang on we were going around~a whirlwind had caught
us
just as the tail was starting down at LasVegas McCarran Field. Those who have
flown the fantastic D-18 know what it is like! Several other times I was
just plain lucky in various aircraft including a Pitts S-1 and my old Funk when
I
was rigging it and left tail wheel unhooked.
I remember this every time I fly a taildragger,
"Those who have and Those are going to"
I've been flying them a long time, hopefully I might make it a career without
groundlooping, but sure keeps one thinking and reminds one to never let their
guard down~and I don't wear shoes with stiff soles when flying taildraggers,
I don't care what type !! Currently flying a PA-18, instructing owner in it.
Elbie
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: tail wheel/ground loop D 18, wow |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
What a great story .....
I agree letting your guard down could not have been said better. Been there
BTW, I love the challenge of a TG. To be honest, slipping and landing my
little KF in a crosswind in my short strip gives me a lot of satisfaction.
We are so fortunate,
Best,
Dave KF 2
Message 17
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| Subject: | Annual Inspection |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: W Duke <n981ms@yahoo.com>
Don and Jeff,
Thanks for the info. That should get me what I need.
Maxwell
do not archive
---------------------------------
Message 18
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
All of a sudden, every email that I am getting from the list has an
attachment. I haven't opened any, but they appear to be the message. ???
Randy Series 5/7 912S N10NH
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Kifox Trailer PRICE REDUCTION |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Lina" <airlina@usadatanet.net>
Kevin, Still have the trailer for sale?
----- Original Message -----
From: <N35LS@aol.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kifox Trailer PRICE REDUCTION
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: N35LS@aol.com
>
> I've reduced the price of the Kitfox trailer to $1200, I live in N.
> California, can still deliver for costs.
> Kevin Johnson
>
>
Message 20
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net>
Randy, It must be just your system. I have not gotten any attachments via
the list, and in fact, the Matronics mailing system strips all attachments.
It just sends out text with very little formatting.
I bet it has something to do with your mail client settings and conversion
from the straight text of the list mail to HTML. Something must have
happened to the settings today. Check them and let us know if you still get
the attachments.
Don Pearsall
Admin.
Message 21
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| Subject: | Dresser tires... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
I tried Google to find them ..... no listing does some one know howt o
get in touch with them RE the KF 2 tires?
Thanks!
Dave KF 2
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Dresser tires... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jay Fabian" <experimental208nd@comcast.net>
Look on Landings.com I know they advertise on it.
Jay
----- Original Message -----
From: <Aerobatics@aol.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Dresser tires...
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
>
> I tried Google to find them ..... no listing does some one know howt o
> get in touch with them RE the KF 2 tires?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Dave KF 2
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Dresser tires... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JMCBEAN" <JDMCBEAN@cableone.net>
Try Desser.. http://www.desser.com/
Blue Skies!!
John & Debra McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Aerobatics@aol.com
Subject: Kitfox-List: Dresser tires...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
I tried Google to find them ..... no listing does some one know howt o
get in touch with them RE the KF 2 tires?
Thanks!
Dave KF 2
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