Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:36 AM - Re: Autogas - color (dave)
2. 03:31 AM - Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) (dave)
3. 03:36 AM - Re: Off topic...New Year's Day flight (dave)
4. 03:48 AM - Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (dave)
5. 04:00 AM - Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (dave)
6. 05:03 AM - Re: Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) (fox5flyer)
7. 06:10 AM - Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) (dave)
8. 07:22 AM - Re: Off topic...New Year's Day flight (Tom Jones)
9. 07:29 AM - Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (Gary)
10. 07:36 AM - Re: Re: Off topic...New Year's Day flight (john oakley)
11. 07:44 AM - Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (dave)
12. 07:52 AM - Re: Kitfox training (Tom Jones)
13. 08:03 AM - Engine stoppage-ethanol blended gas (Bob Jones)
14. 08:14 AM - Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (Tom Jones)
15. 08:52 AM - Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (Marco Menezes)
16. 09:36 AM - Re: Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) (Lowell Fitt)
17. 10:33 AM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (Dan Billingsley)
18. 11:09 AM - Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (dave)
19. 03:14 PM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (Steve Shinabery)
20. 03:23 PM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (84KF)
21. 03:36 PM - Gear allignment (Dee Young)
22. 03:49 PM - Re: Gear allignment (Sbennett3@aol.com)
23. 03:54 PM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (john oakley)
24. 04:19 PM - Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (kitfoxmike)
25. 04:44 PM - Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (kitfoxmike)
26. 04:52 PM - Introduction of new member (Dale H)
27. 05:15 PM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (RAY Gignac)
28. 05:19 PM - Re: Introduction of new member (RAY Gignac)
29. 05:56 PM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (Michael Gibbs)
30. 05:56 PM - Re: Introduction of new member (Steve Shinabery)
31. 06:07 PM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (Michael Gibbs)
32. 06:07 PM - Re: Gear allignment (Bill Malpass)
33. 06:07 PM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (john oakley)
34. 06:38 PM - Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) (dave)
35. 06:51 PM - Re: Gear allignment (dave)
36. 06:51 PM - Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (dave)
37. 06:54 PM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (Steve Shinabery)
38. 06:56 PM - Re: Introduction of new member (dave)
39. 06:59 PM - TAKE A LOOK MY VIDEOS... (PEDRO PEREZ)
40. 07:00 PM - Short Changing Ourselves!! (fox5flyer)
41. 07:09 PM - Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (dave)
42. 07:11 PM - Re: TAKE A LOOK MY VIDEOS... (Dan Billingsley)
43. 07:17 PM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (Steve Shinabery)
44. 07:30 PM - Re: TAKE A LOOK MY VIDEOS... (john oakley)
45. 07:51 PM - Re: TAKE A LOOK MY VIDEOS... (Michael Gibbs)
46. 07:53 PM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (Michael Gibbs)
47. 08:00 PM - Re: Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) (Michael Gibbs)
48. 08:38 PM - Re: Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) (Lowell Fitt)
49. 08:59 PM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (patrick reilly)
50. 09:43 PM - Re: TAKE A LOOK MY VIDEOS... (Guy Buchanan)
51. 10:14 PM - Orange Peel!!! (wadegreaves)
52. 10:21 PM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! Steve, are you out there? (Lowell Fitt)
53. 11:07 PM - Re: Orange Peel!!! (84KF)
54. 11:08 PM - Re: Orange Peel!!! (84KF)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Autogas - color |
BJ, I have seen the same in bench tests that same as you have.
Now If you add some blue pre mix oil into misture and shake it, it turns blue.
NOW let it settle, you will see the gas oil mix stays blue and water /ethanol
will not adhere to the oil.
I have had no issues yet but I also buy gas in smaller quantities now and use sealed
containers and filter all my gas. I also use a gascolator.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155496#155496
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| Subject: | Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) |
> I think if you want perfection they should be right to the stops, but a
> little sag doesn't hurt anything, in my opinion. I notice you use the
> safety cables. Many years ago there was a long thread on this subject.
> There were reports of some members who made hard landings, hard enough so
> that the safety cables maxed out and bent the lateral bulkhead that the
> cables are wrapped around.
Deke, thanks. Yes I agree tighter might be optimum but like i said i have the
last 2 seasons flying with one less wrap and not tight against the stops. Perhaps
this has helped the bungees last longer as well? I do have on with the
outer jacket frayed but strands seem intact so far.
Bending the tubes would not be nice but would be the lesser of evils then smacking
prop and bending a gearbox or crank and/or more damage to wingtips,gear etc.
Man you would have to hit hard to bust a cable like that .
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155502#155502
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| Subject: | Re: Off topic...New Year's Day flight |
I downloaded both movies in under 10 mins. Your server is slower than my connection
or I would have had them in about 3 mins.
Good flicks thanks
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155503#155503
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement |
> But something to think about is also the camber, if the wheels is leaning
> out or in, they want to turn that way, having same effect as toe-in/out,
> this can be compensated for by toe-in/out on some aircraft types.
back in the '70s I spent the first 3 years of my apprenticeship for Autos/Trucks
doing alignments. The car will pull to high camber ( wheel leaning out at
top)
and to low caster(caster is the angle in the kingpin or balljoints, only relevant
here on tailwheels and my Amphib nose gear )
If your wheels spin ture with no wobble measure the inside of the wheel both from
and rear at the same height. If not spin hte wheel and make a mark in it as
it spins. You will want to see from zero to 1/8" toe out on your taildrager.
I use inches as most can likely comprehend that over degrees as it makes
it far easier for most.
Remember this is not rocket science, it just a simple measurement.
Now I might confess I have never measured my Toe in as They look ok to me and
seem to handle ok. BUT I will say that after i put on the King fox tires ,
my first asphault landing was ona a paved strip about 30' wide with near 90
degree crosswind wigh winds 10 to 15 knots. I found that I really had to be
on top of the rudder moreso that with my previous 16.5 x 8 Gold cart type tires.
I have skis on now and for Kicks I will measure them today .
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155505#155505
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! |
> Do you realize the cost of the 100 HP Rotax 912S just went up to $19,500 +/-
by itself? I think some out there are treating the IVs like a toy an ultralight
maybe, and it is actually a real airplane. Look at the competition for Kitfoxes
they are LSAs which are either 60+ year old Piper Cubs/Vagabonds/Champs/Chiefs
that are FABRIC airplanes that are selling for $20 to 30K (and generally
need another $10K of work to be safe or really as flyable as any Kitfox),
Don you make some great points. I Too have been bewildered why Kitfox are SO DAMN
CHEAP!!!!
According to some on supercub.org forum Kitfox are not real airplanes like cubs
..... HEll who wold want a cub that is 60 years old and got worse performances
?
Look at it this way most CUBS cannot CARRY their won weight on top of empty weight.
Can a Kitfox ? -- Depends on empty weight of course.
NEw Super sprt i think is about 700 lbs or so and it goes to 1550 ?
MY 1050 is 550 empty on wheels and can carry me a nd passenger 450lbs plus
18 gals of gas (110lbs plus another 6 gals in 3 - 2 gal jerry ans bedind seat
and about 700 emtpy on amphibs and can carry same 2 guys plus baggage plus 16 more
gallons in floats --add it up
700 + 110 plus 450 + 96 lbs + case beer and food. --yeah it adds up eh !!
even takes 40 to 50 secdons to get off water ..... try loading a 65 HP cub to
2300 to 2500 lbs.
certainly for referance only
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155507#155507
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) |
That's exactly the problem. The cables don't break so something has to
give.
Deke
>
>> I think if you want perfection they should be right to the stops, but a
>> little sag doesn't hurt anything, in my opinion. I notice you use the
>> safety cables. Many years ago there was a long thread on this subject.
>> There were reports of some members who made hard landings, hard enough so
>> that the safety cables maxed out and bent the lateral bulkhead that the
>> cables are wrapped around.
>
>
> Deke, thanks. Yes I agree tighter might be optimum but like i said i
> have the last 2 seasons flying with one less wrap and not tight against
> the stops. Perhaps this has helped the bungees last longer as well? I
> do have on with the outer jacket frayed but strands seem intact so far.
>
> Bending the tubes would not be nice but would be the lesser of evils then
> smacking prop and bending a gearbox or crank and/or more damage to
> wingtips,gear etc.
>
> Man you would have to hit hard to bust a cable like that .
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
> http://www.cfisher.com/
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155502#155502
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) |
> That's exactly the problem. The cables don't break so something has to
> give.
> Deke
>
So are you saying the cables should break? I would that in the event of bungee
failure the cable would arrest the gear from total collapse and potentially saving
a prop strike and possibly more.
I will add that I have 1/8" cable attached to engine in 2 places ,routed through
the firewall, and looped around the fuselage aft of the firewall in the event
of a prop failure where you could lose the engine and would lose control. In
this case again the cable would save you again from more damage but at the cost
of possibly denting,collapsing or destroying fuselage tubing.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155519#155519
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Off topic...New Year's Day flight |
I enjoy reading these winter flying adventures and it has gotten me to thinking
about building some skis. Our local airport is not ski friendly however so I'll
probably wait until I find a hay field or such to use.
Here's a couple pictures winter kitfox flying in Central Washington. For those
new to Kitfoxes, the blue line on the windshield is to line up on the centerline
when landing, I'm a new kitfox pilot. The hole in the cowl is my windshield
defroster, an advantage of the 503 Rotax
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV, Phase one
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155530#155530
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/stewart_range_r_wing_701.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/mt_rainier_949.jpg
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! |
I bought an unbuilt Kitfox IV on Ebay back in Sept/07. It never met the minimum
reserve but the elderly (second) owner wanted it sold after the auction. The
top 3 bidders were contacted by email and I purchased it for 22K (the other
2 guys must of walked away from their computers at the close of bidding :D ).
Add delivery, exchange, taxes and my price of admission to the Kitfox club was
around 25K. I have no regrets, despite the fact a ready to fly machine can
be had for the same money. I wanted the total fly what you built experience with
the full knowledge that my labour will be probably be worth little in the
end.
--------
Gary Del Bel Belluz
Toronto, IV / 912UL
Just getting started
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155531#155531
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Off topic...New Year's Day flight |
Great pictures, thank tom. It is these types of pictures that kept me
building on my project.
John Oakley
Speedster 4 912ul cap
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Jones
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 8:21 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Off topic...New Year's Day flight
I enjoy reading these winter flying adventures and it has gotten me to
thinking about building some skis. Our local airport is not ski friendly
however so I'll probably wait until I find a hay field or such to use.
Here's a couple pictures winter kitfox flying in Central Washington. For
those new to Kitfoxes, the blue line on the windshield is to line up on the
centerline when landing, I'm a new kitfox pilot. The hole in the cowl is my
windshield defroster, an advantage of the 503 Rotax
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV, Phase one
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155530#155530
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/stewart_range_r_wing_701.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/mt_rainier_949.jpg
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! |
Gary, still a good deal for a kit.
912 worth over 15k now plus muffler etc for Kitfox so figure up t0 18k or so.
You basically got your kit for 5k in that case.
NICE JOB !!
Hard to believe flyin planes so cheap.
I have a AVID Heavy Hauler for sale 3 miles from me .
near pristine, 200hrs TT registered as amatuer built in Canada
TURN KEY -- buy and fly........ owner wants 22k/ with trailer...........
I am sure he would let it go for 20k without trailer--open to offers.
Plane is Located 5 miles from London, Ontario, Canada
dave @ cfisher.com
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155536#155536
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox training |
Pete, I was a 300 hour Cherokee pilot when I first tried to fly my kitfox with
an instructor. He could handle it easily but I could not even come close to
keeping it straight on the ground. My Kitfox sat for six years as a hangar queen
and I thought a lot about never trying to fly it again.
I then decided it was time to fly it or sell it so started taking lessons in a
1946 Stinson 108. that was much easier and after 10 hours could handle it fairly
well. Then 4 hours dual in a 1940 J3 Cub, all in the back seat. That was
pretty tough for me to master. At this point my instructor signed me off with
a tail wheel endorsement. Then 7 hours dual in a different model 4 Kitfox.
It was a little squirrelly for me but much easier than my own kitfox.
Now it was time to fly my own Kitfox solo. In the meantime...six years since I
had last tried to fly my Kitfox...I had checked the wheel alignment and found
the left wheel to be about one half inch toe in. I straightened the alignment
to zero toe in or out with the tail up. I must say it is the easiest of all
the tail wheel planes I have flown. The dual instruction definitely helped,
but I can't stress enough, for a low time or new tail wheel pilot, Make sure
the wheel alignment on your kitfox is good!!!
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV, Phase one
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155540#155540
Message 13
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| Subject: | Engine stoppage-ethanol blended gas |
Dave,
Adding blue pre-mix oil to auto gas, so that if alcohol settleout occurs,
it can be identified because the settleout will not have the same blue tint
as the gas strikes me as a logical option if I have to use an ethanol
blended auto gas. Sump testing at the gascolator, filtering fuel and using
fresh fuel are all clearly prudent.
Someone on this thread seemed to want to hear real world evidence of a
problem with ethanol blended gas before buying into the safety concerns put
out by the FAA, EAA and AOPA. Since I have had engines quit running because
of alcohol phase seperation and settleout and did not notice anyone else
respond I shared a bit of my experience.
I see using ethanol blended gas in an aircraft somewhat like I see driving
under the influence of alcohol. One may be able to do both for years
without incident. However, both do entail some level of increased risk. I am
sensitive to the risk of using ethanol blended gas because I have
experienced engine stoppage.
Having owned and operated about two dozen planes and lots of boats over 30
years I never experienced fuel related engine stoppage until ethanol blended
auto gas came into the picture. Now I have and it was obviously and clearly
due to phase seperation and settleout of the alcohol-water layer.
The following comments are pure speculation, but might be important. I can
rationalize that phase seperation could occur IN FLIGHT as our wing tank
fuel temperture decreases with prolonged exposure to the lower temperatures
at higher altitudes so that a good sump check prior to departure may not
insure against an engine out due to alcohol phase seperation at altitude.
Even if this theory makes sense it could probably only occur in rare
circumstances when the alcohol was just on the verge of seperation on the
ground. Once back on the ground and at warmer temps the equilibrium involved
in the settleout may reverse itself and not be apparent to investigators so
the cause of engine stoppage might go undocumented and unrecognized within
the flying community. If anyone has technical expertise on this please chime
in.
Having experienced engine stoppage caused by ethanol blended gas and having
read about other problems related to ethanol blended gas, I routinely use a
variation of the EAA test for ethanol in auto gas before I buy auto gas and
put it in my Kitfox IV with a 912. I also go out of my way to obtain
"straight" gas.
As an aside, I recently returned from a camping, flying, driving tour
(over12,000 miles) across the US and flew my Kitfox over some spectacular
scenery from the Florida Keys and Dry Tortugas off of Key West, along the
still devastated hurricane Katrina coastline, thru many of our national
parks in the southwest including monument valley, Lake Powell, below sea
level in Death Valley and into the Grand Canyon, to California's Big Sur
coastline and the Golden Gate Bridge. What a kick in a Kitfox!
BJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 5:35 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Autogas - color
>
> BJ, I have seen the same in bench tests that same as you have.
>
> Now If you add some blue pre mix oil into misture and shake it, it turns
> blue.
>
> NOW let it settle, you will see the gas oil mix stays blue and water
> /ethanol will not adhere to the oil.
>
> I have had no issues yet but I also buy gas in smaller quantities now and
> use sealed containers and filter all my gas. I also use a gascolator.
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
> http://www.cfisher.com/
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155496#155496
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! |
Here's my thoughts on current used Kitfox prices. A big part of the FAA implementing
the LSA catagory was to stimulate interest in aviation by creating an affordable
airplane. It didn't happen. A year ago a new basic sport cub was about
$85,000 and they couldn't build them fast enough to meet the demand for em.
Now the sport cub is about $119,000 and they still can't build em fast enough.
Prices on new LSA are not going to come down.
I went on a tour of the Cubcrafter's factory a year ago and it really made me think.
They were actually getting $100,000 ($1,000 per horse power) by the time
a few accessories...like a useable fuel tank and a radio...were added. I had
a perfectly good Kitfox sitting in my shop not flying because I hadn't mastered
the tail wheel thing. My plane looks just as good too, and is better in a
lot of ways. That was the push I needed to bite the bullet, get the training,
and fly my kitfox. Thanks Cubcrafters!
There are some very good deals on Kitfoxes listed on Barnstormers right now. Somebody
better buy one of those before those guys come to their senses. Ready
to fly LSA prices are not going to come down.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV, Phase one
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155548#155548
Message 15
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| Subject: | Toe-in, was Bungee replacement |
FWIW, my advice to anyone getting ready to bend bungee gear weldments to "correct"
a minor toe-in/out condition is, don't. I agree with those who advise that
such conditions really do not have any noticible effect on ground handling characteristics.
At least that's been my experience.
There was alot of discussion on this two or three years ago. Because I was about
to begin flight testing and wanted the airplane to be perfect, I almost tried
the "fix" myself. It seemed so radical and risky, however, that I decided
to fly it first and see how it handled. Admittedly, there was one embarrassing
moment with the first high-speed taxi test but that was completely attributable
to the pilot.
steve eccles <eccles@Chartermi.net> wrote:
everyone ,
I'm not wanting to argue about the toe in or out I'm just stating what
worked for me. since you are all the manufactures you can do whatever you
want and that is the GREAT part of building your own aircraft. the Kitfox
is a very well designd aircraft and fits the homebuilder very well
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve eccles
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 7:53 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement
Gary In my experience with aircraft and autos when you speak of toe in you
are talking about 1/16 of an inch toe in when the toe is out the wheels get
really squirley once the aircraft moves forward , In my experience as an A&P
mechanic to much of either on will cause a handling problem, you also need
to keep in mind that the friction of the wheels against the ground will pull
them rearward and if you have a little toe in they will be closer to neutral
, but with a toe out situation they will have a negative number, my model 5
has about 1/16 inch toe in and handles great I have around 600hrs on it and
the tires show very little wear Like I said just my .02
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 6:20 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement
Steve, with all due respect, this is incorrect and this type of setup will
cause bent airplanes. It might be good for cars, but not airplanes.
Picture yourself with a small crosswind that causes you to veer slightly to
the right. The inside wheel is already turned left which will exacerbate
the turn. The more toe-in the more squirrely the airplane will be. If,
when level, the airplane has toe-in it will have more in the three point
attitude which partly why people lose control as they start to let the tail
down from the two point attitude. Add to this the loss of airflow over the
rudder and you have a ground loop.
The best is slightly toe-out when in level attitude. This will put the
wheels in a neutral attitude when in three point. Of course, there are lots
of airplanes out there with a little toe-in and some with more than a
little, and they are flyable, but are more difficult to keep straight when
in three point, especially when a swerve starts.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT
"Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be
overcome".- Samuel Johnson
>
> Gary
> I think that the toe out situation is far worse than the toe in .Just my
> .02
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
> Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 4:20 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Bungee replacement
>
>
> At 07:13 AM 12/30/2007, you wrote:
>>I found out yesterday that I have some gear misalignment. As I push
>>the aircraft into the hanger the gear droops about 1 1/2 inch from
>>the stops and as I go forward about 15 ft it tightens up against the
>>stops.
>
> Be careful with this. If you have any camber, as I do, there will
> always be "apparent" toe in when in a three point attitude. (Camber
> is when the bottoms of the tires are closer together than the tops.)
> If you picture rotating the aircraft so it points straight up and
> then setting the tires on a table, you'll see the maximum extreme of
> the toe in associated with camber. Even though it's much less in a
> three point it's still there. (Toe-in due to camber will
> theoretically be zero when the fuselage is horizontal.)
>
> My plane has a bunch of camber resulting in about 2.5 degrees of
> toe-in in a three point attitude and about 1 1/4 degrees when the
> fuselage is horizontal. I have no problem with this configuration
> other than that I have to replace my tires after 200 hours and ?
> landings. I think the reason for my camber and toe-in is that when
> the plane hits hard and the camber goes negative then the toe-in will
> go to zero. Just a theory. (The original builder built beefy new tube
> gear with more camber and a little toe-in.)
>
> You'll see many toe-in arguments in the archives. I personally
> believe toe-out is theoretically better, but as you can see I've been
> flying with toed-in tube gear and have had virtually no problems in a
> wide variety of conditions: high speed, low speed, wheelies,
> three-point, crosswind, pavement, dirt, and mud. Go figure.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
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| Subject: | Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) |
Dave,
I don't think you got Deke's point. There have in fact been guys that had
to trailer their Model IVs to the Skystar factory for replacement of the
bulkhead the bungees wrap around because of a hard landing caught by the
limit cables which essentially destroyed the bulkhead. Securing the
engine - smart move, but securing the landing gear - very questionable move,
in my opinion and Skyster corrected their design error.
I guess it is up to the individual what he would prefer replacing - the prop
and possibly the gear box (crank) on his engine or the bulkhead weldment
with all the fabric repair, paint, etc. Believe it or not, the damage
incidents are factual rather than the typical argued opinions so very common
on aviation forums.
I don't know if these reports still appear in the available archives, (When
I last checked, I couldn't find anything prior to the turn of the century)
but these reports were the real reason I went to the Hammerhead gear.
Consider Hammerhead and Grove, the same way we consider Kitfox and Avid,
however in this case it was Hammerhead that went south first.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 6:09 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv)
>
>
>> That's exactly the problem. The cables don't break so something has to
>> give.
>> Deke
>>
>
>
> So are you saying the cables should break? I would that in the event of
> bungee failure the cable would arrest the gear from total collapse and
> potentially saving a prop strike and possibly more.
>
>
> I will add that I have 1/8" cable attached to engine in 2 places ,routed
> through the firewall, and looped around the fuselage aft of the firewall
> in the event of a prop failure where you could lose the engine and would
> lose control. In this case again the cable would save you again from more
> damage but at the cost of possibly denting,collapsing or destroying
> fuselage tubing.
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
> http://www.cfisher.com/
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155519#155519
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! |
Tom, with prices like the Cubs and the previously mentioned LSA Cessna, The sellers
of Kitfoxes should come to their senses...It would be good for all of us
in the Kitfox family. :>)
Dan B
Mesa, AZ 314DW
Finishing Covering
http://www.azshowersolutions.com/Build1.html
Tom Jones <nahsikhs@elltel.net> wrote:
Here's my thoughts on current used Kitfox prices. A big part of the FAA implementing
the LSA catagory was to stimulate interest in aviation by creating an affordable
airplane. It didn't happen. A year ago a new basic sport cub was about
$85,000 and they couldn't build them fast enough to meet the demand for em.
Now the sport cub is about $119,000 and they still can't build em fast enough.
Prices on new LSA are not going to come down.
I went on a tour of the Cubcrafter's factory a year ago and it really made me think.
They were actually getting $100,000 ($1,000 per horse power) by the time
a few accessories...like a useable fuel tank and a radio...were added. I had
a perfectly good Kitfox sitting in my shop not flying because I hadn't mastered
the tail wheel thing. My plane looks just as good too, and is better in a lot
of ways. That was the push I needed to bite the bullet, get the training, and
fly my kitfox. Thanks Cubcrafters!
There are some very good deals on Kitfoxes listed on Barnstormers right now. Somebody
better buy one of those before those guys come to their senses. Ready to
fly LSA prices are not going to come down.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV, Phase one
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155548#155548
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! |
Well i been saying for a year or so now that Kitfox prices are close if not bottomed
out. Surely if you bought at million $ worth of Used Kitfoxes you could
likely see a return of 50 to 100% over the next 1 to 5 years.
Plus you could corner the Kitfox used market and have a lot of fun at the same
time !!
As of now The Kitfox IV is not in production so that should really help the IV
and pre IV models. The super sport can capture some of the LSA action. Funny
how LSA planse sell for 100k and basically the same plane as a 20k to 30k
used plane.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155582#155582
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! |
Not 2 shoot down any bodys airplane..But there is a flip side to this
all so..I bought my KF2 used ,I did not build it either.I have all ways
wanted a KF since the mid 80s.,but the cost at the time was too much $$
and too much time to build,.and never built a plane and did not know any
thing about building one.and no one to help..so this did not happen for
me at that time..But I never forgott the little KF,,and over time I
bought and sold a few airplanes.and then I was able to buy the plane
that I wanted way back then.and now I was able to buy the airplane that
I wanted way back then,that i could not afford.and today because of the
great price.and the very nice KF that I bought.a flying KF.that I now
have and love.N554KF KF2.even today I could not afford to buy a LSA
$40,000-over-$100,000.00.another reason that I bought N554KF.the KF is
very reasonable to buy,FLY,and own.may be if all LSA was priced as KFs
there would be more people buying.building,and flying.LSA has out priced
many people out of avaition.that want 2 FLY and can not afford to do so
because of LS companys out pricing them.thoes $100,000.00 LSA is not
worth the big bucks.I can now afford to fly my KF using 4-5 gal an
hour.the KF fits my needs.to the T,,,,,you can keep buying the big $$$.I
will stick with my low cost KITFOX 2 with the 582.but some day,,SOON it
will have the new Jabiru 2200 in her.for more cheap flying fun..This is
what flying is all about guys.to have fun at a affordable cost.Steve
Shinabery,N554KF,,,KF2 with the mighty 582
Don McIntosh wrote:
>
> I would say quite definitely. I am generally just a lurker on this site but I
finally had to get up on my soapbox and speak. I cant believe you guys think
these AIRPLANES are worth only what a few people are giving them away on Ebay
for! The market price of anything is based on recent comparable sales of similar
items. I believe some old guy died a ways back and his old widow had no idea
of the value of his Kitfox, and didnt remember to put any value on the 1000
to 1500 hours he put into building it, so she basically gave it away (just to
be rid of it) to some spam-canner that said it was just a TOY and only worth $15K
tops. Now someone finds out about this sale and puts his on Ebay (how did
Ebay get to be the marketplace for airplanes anyway? Probably a new thread here...)
because it is THE quick way to sell it, and he wasnt the one that built
it either, so there goes another Kitfox for way below a reasonable price. I believe
that part of the problem t!
> he Model IIIs and IVs are having with value now is that the majority of current
owners either did not build the plane, or do not remember what it took to
build it and are also only recovering the cost they put into it in yesterdays
dollars instead of current dollars. Do you realize the cost of the 100 HP Rotax
912S just went up to $19,500 +/- by itself? I think some out there are treating
the IVs like a toy an ultralight maybe, and it is actually a real airplane.
Look at the competition for Kitfoxes they are LSAs which are either 60+ year
old Piper Cubs/Vagabonds/Champs/Chiefs that are FABRIC airplanes that are selling
for $20 to 30K (and generally need another $10K of work to be safe or really
as flyable as any Kitfox), or they are $80 to 120K S-LSAs! Make some of
these prospective buyers go fly the competition first before they make you an
offer on your Kitfox (I guess you cant do this on Ebay). The majority of the flying
Series 7s that have sold, that I kno!
> w about, have gone in the $70 to 90K range, which seems reason!
> able for
>
> this airplane. Sure, there are always going to be some fire sales out there
and there always will be, but some of the things I brought up should be considered
when placing a value on your Kitfox to sell it. Gentlemen, these are real
airplanes and yes, you are shortchanging yourselves, not to mention hurting
the rest of us.
>
> --------
> Don McIntosh
> Kitfox Series 7 under construction
> Jabiru 3300
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155486#155486
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! |
It was recently posted.
>
> "I believe some old guy died a ways back and his old widow had no idea of
> the value of his Kitfox, and didn't remember to put any value on the 1000 to
> 1500 hours he put into building it, so she basically gave it away (just to
> be rid of it) to some spam-canner that said it was just a TOY and only worth
> $15K tops...."
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I was someone... perhaps THE one, who purchased a (possibly the mentioned)
> Kitfox for $15,000.
>
> It is a Series 5, with a 912 UL.
>
> It had a grand total of..... 26 hours flying time.
>
> As the great radio personality Paul Harvey says...
>
> "Now..., for the rest of the story....."
>
> For 10 years prior to the death of the original owner and builder, Ray,
> I was the A&P \IA who maintained and inspected his "fleet" of aircraft. This
> was composed of a Dehavilland Super Chipmunk, a Cessna 337, and 2 Fairchild
> 24's and a North American "Yale". (a WWII trainer.) This coincided with my
> working on his neighbors North American AT-6 and Boeing Stearman. I was in
> the Warbird restoration business at the time and my qualifications
> unquestionable.
>
> I did this work at a very (very) low hourly rate, after hours from my
> "day" job, as I enjoyed working on the aircraft mentioned and we often went
> on late evening flights in the various aircraft, all in the name of
> "maintenance tests"....naturally.
>
> My flying experience began with the purchase of a 1948 PA-15 Vagabond
> for $4500.00 back in 19(cough cough) and I owned and flew the plane for 15
> years before selling it to help finance the kids college. I did a total
> restoration of it about half way through that time and learned the art of
> dope and fabric at that time. To this day I consider it my speciality and
> there are many local examples of my work flying, be it individual flight
> controls or entire airframes.
>
> Over the past 30 years I have (honestly) logged 1300 + hours in aircraft
> ranging from that original PA-15 Vagabond (first solo) to J-3's, 4's, 20's,
> Cessnas 120\140's, Champs, Citabrias Stearmans, T-6's, and best of all, 4
> different WWII German Fi-156 Fieselers "Storch's" If you ever saw a "Storch"
> at Oshkosh during the '90's....I flew one of them there.
>
> Hardly a "spam-canner" pilot,
>
> Soon after Ray's death, the widow asked me to determine a "value" for
> the Kitfox, but not being familiar with the Experimental Amateur-Built
> market all I could was go through his receipts he maliciously saved during
> construction and determined that he had spent $41,000 which included
> airframe kit, engine and installation kit, King digital flip-flop comm,
> transponder, encoder, elt, panel design and installation, Kitfox interior,
> and upgrades such as Grove gear, Hooker Harness setup, Cleveland wheels and
> brakes and a Scott tail wheel assembly.
>
> Ray did, in my opinion, a beautiful job of constructing the aircraft,
> and the covering job is excellent. Everything was done, as I later
> discovered, "by the book", the construction manuals check-off squares dated
> and initialed. All work performed is what we in the business would refer to
> as "aircraft quality" Top notch all the way..That is how Ray was too.
>
> For 5 years after his death ( we now have 15 years of family
> association) I helped the widow with the upkeep of the hanger, lawn
> equipment servicing and repair and once or twice a year would run the Kitfox
> up and change the oil. It was a "cute" little thing, but I had no interest
> in it and was not in a position to purchase and assume the cost of ownership
> of another aircraft.
>
> All this time the aircraft was advertised for sale and she was asking
> $35,000, plus or minus.
>
> Every so often I would get a call from her saying that potential buyers
> would be coming to look at it and could I be there at the time. "Sure..., no
> problem.".
>
> I lost count of the tire kickers, Yeager wannabe's and Kitfox "experts"
> who would try to con the poor old lady, thinking she had no idea of what she
> was trying to sell. They all tried to lowball her price, many stating that
> it was just "junk", with no finish paint, and good for a few parts only. I
> stayed out of $ negotiation as she could take care of herself.
>
> Others wanted a "fresh annual" (it's a "condition report"...jeeze!) No
> one ever brought an A&P or professional appraiser with them. Some even
> wanted to fly it as is...just to "get the feel for it" I do not recall one
> person who stated " It's a fine piece of workmanship, I could trailer it out
> of here , give it a good once-over, and be happy, Let's negotiate on the
> price."
>
> Everyone wanted to be the one who had discovered the "barn find" of the
> century and steal it away from the old widow. Not to be....
>
> Note: I would not do the "condition report" because...
>
> #1, In this litigation crazy, sue everyone for anything world we have now,
> I didn't want to "get involved".with these "strangers".
>
> #2, I was not familiar with the Kitfox type aircraft and even less
> knowledgeable about the Rotax 912UL engine.
>
> She understood this completely and was fine with it. .
>
> Last year the widow lady called and said the plane was leaking
> fuel...could I come over and fix it as she was intent on emptying the hanger
> so she could move from the airpark home into a local condo. The leak
> originated at the mil-6000 fuel lines, which I replaced with quality
> automotive hose. I suspect this was due to ethanol contamination over the 5
> years of inactivity.
>
> At this time she was tired of the cons and asked if I was interested it
> the plane, even though she knew my financial situation would not allow me to
> pay her asking price. She stated a "quite" lower price then I expected, but
> still out of my reach.
>
> I went home that night and realized that she was intent on selling the
> plane, now not to recover the cost but to be able to move off the property.
> She really didn't need the money. She was (is) quite well off financially.
> She just wanted to get out from under it and be done with it.
>
> After a sleepless night I went back and told her I would love to give
> the bird a good home, but just didn't have the money. She asked what I could
> afford, and I blurted out that $15,000 was the most I could do with out
> taking out a loan. And that was the God's honest truth. If my home furnace
> went out, or my roof developed a leak, I would be "up a creek..." as they
> say...
>
> She looked at me, and, I swear, with a tear in her eye, she looked "up" to
> where Ray now resides and asked him, out loud...., "Raymond...? Is that OK
> with you?? (pause..)
>
> She then said to me..."That's fine."
>
> The next day, she got paid, and I, with help, folded the wings and pulled
> it home with the tailwheel tied down over the top of a padded pick-up truck
> lift gate to my garage. I spent the better part of the next few weeks going
> over every nut, bolt and pop rivit to determine it's condition. It was
> perfect, as I have said, By the book . The little nubbies were still on the
> tires, the seats still had fuzz on them. It had that "new airplane" smell
> too.
>
> I have now put another 40 or so hours flight time on it this past
> season. I have also worked out a deal with a T-6, CubCrafter and Bonanza
> owner where as I receive a free, insulated, heated hanger at a local airport
> in exchange for my occasional A&P and IA services. So far my cost of
> ownership, with the exception of the purchase price, has been $00.00. (My
> personal vehicle fuel cost to "work" on these aircraft is also reimbursed.)
>
> I tell this story for a number of reasons.
>
> First, you don't need to be rich to fly if you are willing to make
> sacrifices.
>
> Second, treat people right and they will treat you the same.
>
> Third, if the potential buyers hadn't tried to cheat and lie to the widow,
> and offered her a reasonable price for what was obviously a fine product,
> they would be flying a great airplane today for a cost less the the
> investment in the airframe kit and engine alone, not me.
>
> Now, when I approached this group a year or so ago I was immediately
> condemned by the self-called "experts" when I inquired about Sport Pilot
> Privileges with a Series 5. These "experts", who "knew it all" said I didn't
> "deserve" to own or fly such a craft as I hadn't built it myself. One went
> so far as to send E-mail glorifying his "vast" experience and "requesting"
> that I never, ever, fly "over his house" as he considered me a danger due to
> my "limited knowledge of aviation."
>
> That person then proceeded within the year to ball his own aircraft up in
> a field for reasons that have never been explained in this forum.
>
> . I shouldn't admit it but I find that quite ironic.
>
> I am pleased to say that I am able to, and do, fly my "5" under Sport
> Pilot privileges. Perfectly legal under the LSA rules and regulations. Learn
> what "Maximum Takeoff Weight" is, as defined by the FAA in regards to LSA
> issues, and apply it.
>
> In the words of Forest Gump..."That is all I have to say about that."
>
> Steve B.
>
> Michigan
>
>
Message 21
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For what its worth, I have found thru personal experience the tire
pressure can have a serious effect on ground handling.
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
Do not archive
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Gear allignment |
I agree Dee, When I bought my fox 4 my flight instructor made me take my
pants off :-)
Wheel pants that is... He said takem off or they might get knocked off...
When we got them off the pressure looked very low in the tires... We aired
them up to a nice solid sidewall appearence. I did appx 10 squirrely hours with
15-20 psi in them and a fellow kitfoxer heard me complain about it being
squirrely on the ground. He told me that I should purchase an ATV air pressure
guage and have no more then 7 psi in the tires. After learning with too much
air in the tires, having 7 psi suddenly makes groundhandling easy...My
observation... Steve Bennett n109BB North Carolina
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! |
Steve,
Great explanation of the experience with not only the plane but the group. I
some times am embarrassed with the input of the group. I have been on this
list since if bought my plane in 92, my input has not been all I have wanted
to do. It cost me 86 thousand dollars to build my fox the way I wanted,
when, if ever I sale, it will be for what I have invested or to a friend,
like you were to them.
John Oakley
Speedster 4 912ul cap.
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 84KF
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!
It was recently posted.
"I believe some old guy died a ways back and his old widow had no idea of
the value of his Kitfox, and didn't remember to put any value on the 1000 to
1500 hours he put into building it, so she basically gave it away (just to
be rid of it) to some spam-canner that said it was just a TOY and only worth
$15K tops...."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
I was someone... perhaps THE one, who purchased a (possibly the mentioned)
Kitfox for $15,000.
It is a Series 5, with a 912 UL.
It had a grand total of..... 26 hours flying time.
As the great radio personality Paul Harvey says...
"Now..., for the rest of the story....."
For 10 years prior to the death of the original owner and builder, Ray, I
was the A&P \IA who maintained and inspected his "fleet" of aircraft. This
was composed of a Dehavilland Super Chipmunk, a Cessna 337, and 2 Fairchild
24's and a North American "Yale". (a WWII trainer.) This coincided with my
working on his neighbors North American AT-6 and Boeing Stearman. I was in
the Warbird restoration business at the time and my qualifications
unquestionable.
I did this work at a very (very) low hourly rate, after hours from my
"day" job, as I enjoyed working on the aircraft mentioned and we often went
on late evening flights in the various aircraft, all in the name of
"maintenance tests"....naturally.
My flying experience began with the purchase of a 1948 PA-15 Vagabond for
$4500.00 back in 19(cough cough) and I owned and flew the plane for 15 years
before selling it to help finance the kids college. I did a total
restoration of it about half way through that time and learned the art of
dope and fabric at that time. To this day I consider it my speciality and
there are many local examples of my work flying, be it individual flight
controls or entire airframes.
Over the past 30 years I have (honestly) logged 1300 + hours in aircraft
ranging from that original PA-15 Vagabond (first solo) to J-3's, 4's, 20's,
Cessnas 120\140's, Champs, Citabrias Stearmans, T-6's, and best of all, 4
different WWII German Fi-156 Fieselers "Storch's" If you ever saw a "Storch"
at Oshkosh during the '90's....I flew one of them there.
Hardly a "spam-canner" pilot,
Soon after Ray's death, the widow asked me to determine a "value" for the
Kitfox, but not being familiar with the Experimental Amateur-Built market
all I could was go through his receipts he maliciously saved during
construction and determined that he had spent $41,000 which included
airframe kit, engine and installation kit, King digital flip-flop comm,
transponder, encoder, elt, panel design and installation, Kitfox interior,
and upgrades such as Grove gear, Hooker Harness setup, Cleveland wheels and
brakes and a Scott tail wheel assembly.
Ray did, in my opinion, a beautiful job of constructing the aircraft, and
the covering job is excellent. Everything was done, as I later discovered,
"by the book", the construction manuals check-off squares dated and
initialed. All work performed is what we in the business would refer to as
"aircraft quality" Top notch all the way..That is how Ray was too.
For 5 years after his death ( we now have 15 years of family association)
I helped the widow with the upkeep of the hanger, lawn equipment servicing
and repair and once or twice a year would run the Kitfox up and change the
oil. It was a "cute" little thing, but I had no interest in it and was not
in a position to purchase and assume the cost of ownership of another
aircraft.
All this time the aircraft was advertised for sale and she was asking
$35,000, plus or minus.
Every so often I would get a call from her saying that potential buyers
would be coming to look at it and could I be there at the time. "Sure..., no
problem.".
I lost count of the tire kickers, Yeager wannabe's and Kitfox "experts"
who would try to con the poor old lady, thinking she had no idea of what she
was trying to sell. They all tried to lowball her price, many stating that
it was just "junk", with no finish paint, and good for a few parts only. I
stayed out of $ negotiation as she could take care of herself.
Others wanted a "fresh annual" (it's a "condition report"...jeeze!) No one
ever brought an A&P or professional appraiser with them. Some even wanted to
fly it as is...just to "get the feel for it" I do not recall one person who
stated " It's a fine piece of workmanship, I could trailer it out of here ,
give it a good once-over, and be happy, Let's negotiate on the price."
Everyone wanted to be the one who had discovered the "barn find" of the
century and steal it away from the old widow. Not to be....
Note: I would not do the "condition report" because...
#1, In this litigation crazy, sue everyone for anything world we have now, I
didn't want to "get involved".with these "strangers".
#2, I was not familiar with the Kitfox type aircraft and even less
knowledgeable about the Rotax 912UL engine.
She understood this completely and was fine with it. .
Last year the widow lady called and said the plane was leaking
fuel...could I come over and fix it as she was intent on emptying the hanger
so she could move from the airpark home into a local condo. The leak
originated at the mil-6000 fuel lines, which I replaced with quality
automotive hose. I suspect this was due to ethanol contamination over the 5
years of inactivity.
At this time she was tired of the cons and asked if I was interested it the
plane, even though she knew my financial situation would not allow me to pay
her asking price. She stated a "quite" lower price then I expected, but
still out of my reach.
I went home that night and realized that she was intent on selling the
plane, now not to recover the cost but to be able to move off the property.
She really didn't need the money. She was (is) quite well off financially.
She just wanted to get out from under it and be done with it.
After a sleepless night I went back and told her I would love to give the
bird a good home, but just didn't have the money. She asked what I could
afford, and I blurted out that $15,000 was the most I could do with out
taking out a loan. And that was the God's honest truth. If my home furnace
went out, or my roof developed a leak, I would be "up a creek..." as they
say...
She looked at me, and, I swear, with a tear in her eye, she looked "up" to
where Ray now resides and asked him, out loud...., "Raymond...? Is that OK
with you?? (pause..)
She then said to me..."That's fine."
The next day, she got paid, and I, with help, folded the wings and pulled it
home with the tailwheel tied down over the top of a padded pick-up truck
lift gate to my garage. I spent the better part of the next few weeks going
over every nut, bolt and pop rivit to determine it's condition. It was
perfect, as I have said, By the book . The little nubbies were still on the
tires, the seats still had fuzz on them. It had that "new airplane" smell
too.
I have now put another 40 or so hours flight time on it this past season.
I have also worked out a deal with a T-6, CubCrafter and Bonanza owner where
as I receive a free, insulated, heated hanger at a local airport in exchange
for my occasional A&P and IA services. So far my cost of ownership, with the
exception of the purchase price, has been $00.00. (My personal vehicle fuel
cost to "work" on these aircraft is also reimbursed.)
I tell this story for a number of reasons.
First, you don't need to be rich to fly if you are willing to make
sacrifices.
Second, treat people right and they will treat you the same.
Third, if the potential buyers hadn't tried to cheat and lie to the widow,
and offered her a reasonable price for what was obviously a fine product,
they would be flying a great airplane today for a cost less the the
investment in the airframe kit and engine alone, not me.
Now, when I approached this group a year or so ago I was immediately
condemned by the self-called "experts" when I inquired about Sport Pilot
Privileges with a Series 5. These "experts", who "knew it all" said I didn't
"deserve" to own or fly such a craft as I hadn't built it myself. One went
so far as to send E-mail glorifying his "vast" experience and "requesting"
that I never, ever, fly "over his house" as he considered me a danger due to
my "limited knowledge of aviation."
That person then proceeded within the year to ball his own aircraft up in a
field for reasons that have never been explained in this forum.
. I shouldn't admit it but I find that quite ironic.
I am pleased to say that I am able to, and do, fly my "5" under Sport Pilot
privileges. Perfectly legal under the LSA rules and regulations. Learn what
"Maximum Takeoff Weight" is, as defined by the FAA in regards to LSA issues,
and apply it.
In the words of Forest Gump..."That is all I have to say about that."
Steve B.
Michigan
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! |
Steve,
Bravo, stay with it. Have fun. And most of all don't listen to the so called
experts.
--------
kitfoxmike
model IV, 1200
speedster
912ul
building
RV7a
slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit
"if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying
enough"
Do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155617#155617
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! |
Oh, one more thing steve.
In the four years that I've had my P license I have had enough trouble from pilots
that it would make you vomit if I told you.
I have this saying, I'm not a pilot, I fly airplanes, pilots are axx hxxxx, and
I don't want to be one of them.
--------
kitfoxmike
model IV, 1200
speedster
912ul
building
RV7a
slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit
"if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying
enough"
Do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155620#155620
Message 26
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| Subject: | Introduction of new member |
Hello Kitfox list,
I just joined up and looking forward to reading more about the Kitfox.
I have a friend who is building a Model IV, who is also a member of this
list. (Hi Dan B). Dan renewed my interested in the Kitfox after seeing
the nice job his is doing on his. I don't have the time to build one
right now but I may look into buying a flying one.
I have owned several planes in the past, everything from Cherokee's to
Ultralights. Currently I have a Cessna 150. I'm hoping to find a plane
that will out perform my C-150 in every category while still maintaining
a relatively low fuel burn. I'm thinking a Kitfox IV with a Rotax 100hp
would do that. The little Cessna is a fun plane, I just want a little
more....<fill in the blank>
I have very little time in conventional wheel airplanes (about 3 hours
in a Champ) so I'm a little concerned about buying a TD but not totally
against it.
I will probably sit back and read for a while, I just want to jump in
and intoduce myself.
Thanks,
Dale H
Mesa, Arizona
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! |
WOW! WOW!, When I introduced this topic a few weeks ago, I did not know wh
at to expect! I only put this subject out there because, well maybe my own
feelings of what I thought this fine airplane should be worth. Everyone h
as made good points on the value of the Kitfox!! I to purchased a built Mo
del IV 1200 with a 912 ULS and never flew a tailwheel plane in my life. I
have found that everytime I fly my Fox I enjoy it more and more. I hope I
did not hurt fealings in any way. By the way, if anyone wants to take a ga
nder at my bird, go t pgrcclub.com and look under photographs for 2007 summ
er. I flew my plane to there little field for a show and tell.
Ray
From: john@leptron.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Kitfox-List
: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:52:48 -0700
Steve,
Great explanation of the experience with not only the plane but the group.
I some times am embarrassed with the input of the group. I have been on thi
s list since if bought my plane in 92, my input has not been all I have wan
ted to do. It cost me 86 thousand dollars to build my fox the way I wanted,
when, if ever I sale, it will be for what I have invested or to a friend,
like you were to them.
John Oakley
Speedster 4 912ul cap.
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 84KFSent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:19 P
MTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing
Ourselves!!
It was recently posted.
"I believe some old guy died a ways back and his old widow had no idea of t
he value of his Kitfox, and didn't remember to put any value on the 1000 to
1500 hours he put into building it, so she basically gave it away (just to
be rid of it) to some spam-canner that said it was just a TOY and only wor
th $15K tops...."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
I was someone... perhaps THE one, who purchased a (possibly the mentioned)
Kitfox for $15,000.
It is a Series 5, with a 912 UL.
It had a grand total of..... 26 hours flying time.
As the great radio personality Paul Harvey says...
"Now..., for the rest of the story....."
For 10 years prior to the death of the original owner and builder, Ray, I
was the A&P \IA who maintained and inspected his "fleet" of aircraft. This
was composed of a Dehavilland Super Chipmunk, a Cessna 337, and 2 Fairchil
d 24's and a North American "Yale". (a WWII trainer.) This coincided with m
y working on his neighbors North American AT-6 and Boeing Stearman. I was i
n the Warbird restoration business at the time and my qualifications unques
tionable.
I did this work at a very (very) low hourly rate, after hours from my "da
y" job, as I enjoyed working on the aircraft mentioned and we often went on
late evening flights in the various aircraft, all in the name of "maintena
nce tests"....naturally.
My flying experience began with the purchase of a 1948 PA-15 Vagabond for
$4500.00 back in 19(cough cough) and I owned and flew the plane for 15 yea
rs before selling it to help finance the kids college. I did a total restor
ation of it about half way through that time and learned the art of dope an
d fabric at that time. To this day I consider it my speciality and there ar
e many local examples of my work flying, be it individual flight controls o
r entire airframes.
Over the past 30 years I have (honestly) logged 1300 + hours in aircraft
ranging from that original PA-15 Vagabond (first solo) to J-3's, 4's, 20's,
Cessnas 120\140's, Champs, Citabrias Stearmans, T-6's, and best of all, 4
different WWII German Fi-156 Fieselers "Storch's" If you ever saw a "Storch
" at Oshkosh during the '90's....I flew one of them there.
Hardly a "spam-canner" pilot,
Soon after Ray's death, the widow asked me to determine a "value" for the
Kitfox, but not being familiar with the Experimental Amateur-Built market
all I could was go through his receipts he maliciously saved during constru
ction and determined that he had spent $41,000 which included airframe kit,
engine and installation kit, King digital flip-flop comm, transponder, enc
oder, elt, panel design and installation, Kitfox interior, and upgrades suc
h as Grove gear, Hooker Harness setup, Cleveland wheels and brakes and a Sc
ott tail wheel assembly.
Ray did, in my opinion, a beautiful job of constructing the aircraft, and
the covering job is excellent. Everything was done, as I later discovered,
"by the book", the construction manuals check-off squares dated and initia
led. All work performed is what we in the business would refer to as "aircr
aft quality" Top notch all the way..That is how Ray was too.
For 5 years after his death ( we now have 15 years of family association)
I helped the widow with the upkeep of the hanger, lawn equipment servicing
and repair and once or twice a year would run the Kitfox up and change the
oil. It was a "cute" little thing, but I had no interest in it and was not
in a position to purchase and assume the cost of ownership of another airc
raft.
All this time the aircraft was advertised for sale and she was asking $35,0
00, plus or minus.
Every so often I would get a call from her saying that potential buyers wo
uld be coming to look at it and could I be there at the time. "Sure..., no
problem.".
I lost count of the tire kickers, Yeager wannabe's and Kitfox "experts" w
ho would try to con the poor old lady, thinking she had no idea of what she
was trying to sell. They all tried to lowball her price, many stating that
it was just "junk", with no finish paint, and good for a few parts only. I
stayed out of $ negotiation as she could take care of herself.
Others wanted a "fresh annual" (it's a "condition report"...jeeze!) No on
e ever brought an A&P or professional appraiser with them. Some even wanted
to fly it as is...just to "get the feel for it" I do not recall one person
who stated " It's a fine piece of workmanship, I could trailer it out of h
ere , give it a good once-over, and be happy, Let's negotiate on the price.
"
Everyone wanted to be the one who had discovered the "barn find" of the c
entury and steal it away from the old widow. Not to be....
Note: I would not do the "condition report" because...
#1, In this litigation crazy, sue everyone for anything world we have now,
I didn't want to "get involved".with these "strangers".
#2, I was not familiar with the Kitfox type aircraft and even less knowledg
eable about the Rotax 912UL engine.
She understood this completely and was fine with it. .
Last year the widow lady called and said the plane was leaking fuel...cou
ld I come over and fix it as she was intent on emptying the hanger so she c
ould move from the airpark home into a local condo. The leak originated at
the mil-6000 fuel lines, which I replaced with quality automotive hose. I s
uspect this was due to ethanol contamination over the 5 years of inactivity
.
At this time she was tired of the cons and asked if I was interested it the
plane, even though she knew my financial situation would not allow me to p
ay her asking price. She stated a "quite" lower price then I expected, but
still out of my reach.
I went home that night and realized that she was intent on selling the pl
ane, now not to recover the cost but to be able to move off the property. S
he really didn't need the money. She was (is) quite well off financially. S
he just wanted to get out from under it and be done with it.
After a sleepless night I went back and told her I would love to give the
bird a good home, but just didn't have the money. She asked what I could a
fford, and I blurted out that $15,000 was the most I could do with out taki
ng out a loan. And that was the God's honest truth. If my home furnace went
out, or my roof developed a leak, I would be "up a creek..." as they say..
.
She looked at me, and, I swear, with a tear in her eye, she looked "up" to
where Ray now resides and asked him, out loud...., "Raymond...? Is that OK
with you?? (pause..)
She then said to me..."That's fine."
The next day, she got paid, and I, with help, folded the wings and pulled i
t home with the tailwheel tied down over the top of a padded pick-up truck
lift gate to my garage. I spent the better part of the next few weeks going
over every nut, bolt and pop rivit to determine it's condition. It was per
fect, as I have said, By the book . The little nubbies were still on the ti
res, the seats still had fuzz on them. It had that "new airplane" smell too
.
I have now put another 40 or so hours flight time on it this past season.
I have also worked out a deal with a T-6, CubCrafter and Bonanza owner whe
re as I receive a free, insulated, heated hanger at a local airport in exch
ange for my occasional A&P and IA services. So far my cost of ownership, wi
th the exception of the purchase price, has been $00.00. (My personal vehic
le fuel cost to "work" on these aircraft is also reimbursed.)
I tell this story for a number of reasons.
First, you don't need to be rich to fly if you are willing to make sacrific
es.
Second, treat people right and they will treat you the same.
Third, if the potential buyers hadn't tried to cheat and lie to the widow,
and offered her a reasonable price for what was obviously a fine product, t
hey would be flying a great airplane today for a cost less the the investme
nt in the airframe kit and engine alone, not me.
Now, when I approached this group a year or so ago I was immediately cond
emned by the self-called "experts" when I inquired about Sport Pilot Privil
eges with a Series 5. These "experts", who "knew it all" said I didn't "des
erve" to own or fly such a craft as I hadn't built it myself. One went so f
ar as to send E-mail glorifying his "vast" experience and "requesting" that
I never, ever, fly "over his house" as he considered me a danger due to my
"limited knowledge of aviation."
That person then proceeded within the year to ball his own aircraft up in a
field for reasons that have never been explained in this forum.
. I shouldn't admit it but I find that quite ironic.
I am pleased to say that I am able to, and do, fly my "5" under Sport Pilot
privileges. Perfectly legal under the LSA rules and regulations. Learn wha
t "Maximum Takeoff Weight" is, as defined by the FAA in regards to LSA issu
es, and apply it.
In the words of Forest Gump..."That is all I have to say about that."
Steve B.
Michigan
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_________________________________________________________________
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_1220
07
Message 28
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| Subject: | Introduction of new member |
I also have a Kitfox IV with the rotax 912uls, and man does it out perform
the 150 in every way! oh, I also caught up and passed a 172 on a flat out r
un, way cool ha.
Ray
From: dh5465@cox.netTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Kitfox-List: Intr
oduction of new memberDate: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 17:51:26 -0700
Hello Kitfox list,
I just joined up and looking forward to reading more about the Kitfox. I h
ave a friend who is building a Model IV, who is also a member of this list.
(Hi Dan B). Dan renewed my interested in the Kitfox after seeing the nic
e job his is doing on his. I don't have the time to build one right now bu
t I may look into buying a flying one.
I have owned several planes in the past, everything from Cherokee's to Ultr
alights. Currently I have a Cessna 150. I'm hoping to find a plane that w
ill out perform my C-150 in every category while still maintaining a relati
vely low fuel burn. I'm thinking a Kitfox IV with a Rotax 100hp would do t
hat. The little Cessna is a fun plane, I just want a little more....<fill
in the blank>
I have very little time in conventional wheel airplanes (about 3 hours in a
Champ) so I'm a little concerned about buying a TD but not totally against
it.
I will probably sit back and read for a while, I just want to jump in and i
ntoduce myself.
Thanks,
Dale H
Mesa, Arizona
_________________________________________________________________
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_1220
07
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! |
Steve sez:
>...when I approached this group a year or so ago I was immediately
>condemned by the self-called "experts" when I inquired about Sport
>Pilot Privileges with a Series 5. These "experts", who "knew it all"
>said I didn't "deserve" to own or fly such a craft as I hadn't built
>it myself.
Your revisionist history is quite creative, Steve. Having sat
through this entire debacle the first time around I'm hard pressed to
see where your persecution complex originates. Can you point us to a
message from the archives in which someone said you don't deserve to
own or fly a plane that someone else built? As I recall, you spent a
great deal of time trying to convince others of your interpretation
of the sport rules, likely giving the impression that you are an
"expert" in legal matters. You're not an attorney, are you Steve?
No, I think we established that last time.
>One went so far as to send E-mail glorifying his "vast"
>experience...then proceeded within the year to ball his own aircraft
>up in a field for reasons that have never been explained in this
>forum.
What a slimey thing to say! Kick 'em while they're down, is that
your motto? Maybe it's time to apply your second lesson ("treat
people right and they will treat you the same.").
Members are under no obligation to provide this forum with anything.
If someone elects not to share the details of a harrowing experience
with this group that is their choice. Read the NTSB report if you
want to know what happened.
>I am pleased to say that I am able to, and do, fly my "5" under
>Sport Pilot privileges. Perfectly legal under the LSA rules and
>regulations. Learn what "Maximum Takeoff Weight" is, as defined by
>the FAA in regards to LSA issues, and apply it.
Nobody ever said that a Series 5 Kitfox could not be operated under
Sport Pilot rules. The argument was whether or not an aircraft that
had ever been operated above the weight limit for sport category
could be operated under those rules, as yours seems to have been. If
you are that confident, why don't you post your tail number and
address and we'll have the FAA come over and confirm your assertion?
Shouldn't be a problem, right? We could put this to bed right now
and shut all the "experts" up.
Mike G.
N728KF
Phoenix, AZ
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Introduction of new member |
Wecome Dale H,to the Kitfox family,Steve Shinabery N554KF,KF2
Dale H wrote:
> Hello Kitfox list,
>
> I just joined up and looking forward to reading more about the
> Kitfox. I have a friend who is building a Model IV, who is also a
> member of this list. (Hi Dan B). Dan renewed my interested in the
> Kitfox after seeing the nice job his is doing on his. I don't have
> the time to build one right now but I may look into buying a flying one.
>
> I have owned several planes in the past, everything from Cherokee's to
> Ultralights. Currently I have a Cessna 150. I'm hoping to find a
> plane that will out perform my C-150 in every category while still
> maintaining a relatively low fuel burn. I'm thinking a Kitfox IV with
> a Rotax 100hp would do that. The little Cessna is a fun plane, I just
> want a little more....<_fill in the blank_>
>
> I have very little time in conventional wheel airplanes (about 3 hours
> in a Champ) so I'm a little concerned about buying a TD but not
> totally against it.
>
> I will probably sit back and read for a while, I just want to jump in
> and intoduce myself.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dale H
>
> Mesa, Arizona
>
> *
>
>
> *
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! |
Ray sez:
>I only put this subject out there because, well maybe my own
>feelings of what I thought this fine airplane should be worth.
>Everyone has made good points on the value of the Kitfox!
What we have proven with this discussion is that opinions are like
butt holes--everybody has one. Anyone who has poured their blood,
sweat, and tears into building an airplane will have a different
notion of the value of their creation than someone looking to
low-ball a seller on price.
Nobody has brought up the less tangible aspects of buying or selling
an experimental aircraft. Like it or not, we live in an increasingly
litigious world and the builder has considerable liability exposure
when they sell their aircraft. I find the notion of selling an
airplane I built to a stranger very frightening! The buyer is also
at risk because the seller likely does not have the means to back up
the product in the event of a problem.
Unfortunately, every seller has their own circumstances to be
concerned with and ultimately it comes down to what a willing buyer
and willing seller agree to. Take a look at the housing market right
now--encouraging sellers to hold out doesn't change a thing.
Mike G.
N728KF
Phoenix, AZ
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Gear allignment |
I'll definately copy that.......I have a moele III and I run 8 pounds
after trying to taxi/land with 15 pounds. I found as much as 2 pounds of
air can make a difference.
----- Original Message -----
From: Sbennett3@aol.com
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Gear allignment
I agree Dee, When I bought my fox 4 my flight instructor made me take
my pants off :-)
Wheel pants that is... He said takem off or they might get knocked
off... When we got them off the pressure looked very low in the tires...
We aired them up to a nice solid sidewall appearence. I did appx 10
squirrely hours with 15-20 psi in them and a fellow kitfoxer heard me
complain about it being squirrely on the ground. He told me that I
should purchase an ATV air pressure guage and have no more then 7 psi in
the tires. After learning with too much air in the tires, having 7 psi
suddenly makes groundhandling easy...My observation... Steve Bennett
n109BB North Carolina
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! |
Ray,
That is a good looking plane, and a great place to fly it.
John oakley
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RAY Gignac
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 6:15 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!
WOW! WOW!, When I introduced this topic a few weeks ago, I did not know
what to expect! I only put this subject out there because, well maybe my
own feelings of what I thought this fine airplane should be worth. Everyone
has made good points on the value of the Kitfox!! I to purchased a built
Model IV 1200 with a 912 ULS and never flew a tailwheel plane in my life. I
have found that everytime I fly my Fox I enjoy it more and more. I hope I
did not hurt fealings in any way. By the way, if anyone wants to take a
gander at my bird, go t pgrcclub.com and look under photographs for 2007
summer. I flew my plane to there little field for a show and tell.
Ray
_____
From: john@leptron.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!
Steve,
Great explanation of the experience with not only the plane but the group. I
some times am embarrassed with the input of the group. I have been on this
list since if bought my plane in 92, my input has not been all I have wanted
to do. It cost me 86 thousand dollars to build my fox the way I wanted,
when, if ever I sale, it will be for what I have invested or to a friend,
like you were to them.
John Oakley
Speedster 4 912ul cap.
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 84KF
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!
It was recently posted.
"I believe some old guy died a ways back and his old widow had no idea of
the value of his Kitfox, and didn't remember to put any value on the 1000 to
1500 hours he put into building it, so she basically gave it away (just to
be rid of it) to some spam-canner that said it was just a TOY and only worth
$15K tops...."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
I was someone... perhaps THE one, who purchased a (possibly the mentioned)
Kitfox for $15,000.
It is a Series 5, with a 912 UL.
It had a grand total of..... 26 hours flying time.
As the great radio personality Paul Harvey says...
"Now..., for the rest of the story....."
For 10 years prior to the death of the original owner and builder, Ray, I
was the A&P \IA who maintained and inspected his "fleet" of aircraft. This
was composed of a Dehavilland Super Chipmunk, a Cessna 337, and 2 Fairchild
24's and a North American "Yale". (a WWII trainer.) This coincided with my
working on his neighbors North American AT-6 and Boeing Stearman. I was in
the Warbird restoration business at the time and my qualifications
unquestionable.
I did this work at a very (very) low hourly rate, after hours from my
"day" job, as I enjoyed working on the aircraft mentioned and we often went
on late evening flights in the various aircraft, all in the name of
"maintenance tests"....naturally.
My flying experience began with the purchase of a 1948 PA-15 Vagabond for
$4500.00 back in 19(cough cough) and I owned and flew the plane for 15 years
before selling it to help finance the kids college. I did a total
restoration of it about half way through that time and learned the art of
dope and fabric at that time. To this day I consider it my speciality and
there are many local examples of my work flying, be it individual flight
controls or entire airframes.
Over the past 30 years I have (honestly) logged 1300 + hours in aircraft
ranging from that original PA-15 Vagabond (first solo) to J-3's, 4's, 20's,
Cessnas 120\140's, Champs, Citabrias Stearmans, T-6's, and best of all, 4
different WWII German Fi-156 Fieselers "Storch's" If you ever saw a "Storch"
at Oshkosh during the '90's....I flew one of them there.
Hardly a "spam-canner" pilot,
Soon after Ray's death, the widow asked me to determine a "value" for the
Kitfox, but not being familiar with the Experimental Amateur-Built market
all I could was go through his receipts he maliciously saved during
construction and determined that he had spent $41,000 which included
airframe kit, engine and installation kit, King digital flip-flop comm,
transponder, encoder, elt, panel design and installation, Kitfox interior,
and upgrades such as Grove gear, Hooker Harness setup, Cleveland wheels and
brakes and a Scott tail wheel assembly.
Ray did, in my opinion, a beautiful job of constructing the aircraft, and
the covering job is excellent. Everything was done, as I later discovered,
"by the book", the construction manuals check-off squares dated and
initialed. All work performed is what we in the business would refer to as
"aircraft quality" Top notch all the way..That is how Ray was too.
For 5 years after his death ( we now have 15 years of family association)
I helped the widow with the upkeep of the hanger, lawn equipment servicing
and repair and once or twice a year would run the Kitfox up and change the
oil. It was a "cute" little thing, but I had no interest in it and was not
in a position to purchase and assume the cost of ownership of another
aircraft.
All this time the aircraft was advertised for sale and she was asking
$35,000, plus or minus.
Every so often I would get a call from her saying that potential buyers
would be coming to look at it and could I be there at the time. "Sure..., no
problem.".
I lost count of the tire kickers, Yeager wannabe's and Kitfox "experts"
who would try to con the poor old lady, thinking she had no idea of what she
was trying to sell. They all tried to lowball her price, many stating that
it was just "junk", with no finish paint, and good for a few parts only. I
stayed out of $ negotiation as she could take care of herself.
Others wanted a "fresh annual" (it's a "condition report"...jeeze!) No one
ever brought an A&P or professional appraiser with them. Some even wanted to
fly it as is...just to "get the feel for it" I do not recall one person who
stated " It's a fine piece of workmanship, I could trailer it out of here ,
give it a good once-over, and be happy, Let's negotiate on the price."
Everyone wanted to be the one who had discovered the "barn find" of the
century and steal it away from the old widow. Not to be....
Note: I would not do the "condition report" because...
#1, In this litigation crazy, sue everyone for anything world we have now, I
didn't want to "get involved".with these "strangers".
#2, I was not familiar with the Kitfox type aircraft and even less
knowledgeable about the Rotax 912UL engine.
She understood this completely and was fine with it. .
Last year the widow lady called and said the plane was leaking
fuel...could I come over and fix it as she was intent on emptying the hanger
so she could move from the airpark home into a local condo. The leak
originated at the mil-6000 fuel lines, which I replaced with quality
automotive hose. I suspect this was due to ethanol contamination over the 5
years of inactivity.
At this time she was tired of the cons and asked if I was interested it the
plane, even though she knew my financial situation would not allow me to pay
her asking price. She stated a "quite" lower price then I expected, but
still out of my reach.
I went home that night and realized that she was intent on selling the
plane, now not to recover the cost but to be able to move off the property.
She really didn't need the money. She was (is) quite well off financially.
She just wanted to get out from under it and be done with it.
After a sleepless night I went back and told her I would love to give the
bird a good home, but just didn't have the money. She asked what I could
afford, and I blurted out that $15,000 was the most I could do with out
taking out a loan. And that was the God's honest truth. If my home furnace
went out, or my roof developed a leak, I would be "up a creek..." as they
say...
She looked at me, and, I swear, with a tear in her eye, she looked "up" to
where Ray now resides and asked him, out loud...., "Raymond...? Is that OK
with you?? (pause..)
She then said to me..."That's fine."
The next day, she got paid, and I, with help, folded the wings and pulled it
home with the tailwheel tied down over the top of a padded pick-up truck
lift gate to my garage. I spent the better part of the next few weeks going
over every nut, bolt and pop rivit to determine it's condition. It was
perfect, as I have said, By the book . The little nubbies were still on the
tires, the seats still had fuzz on them. It had that "new airplane" smell
too.
I have now put another 40 or so hours flight time on it this past season.
I have also worked out a deal with a T-6, CubCrafter and Bonanza owner where
as I receive a free, insulated, heated hanger at a local airport in exchange
for my occasional A&P and IA services. So far my cost of ownership, with the
exception of the purchase price, has been $00.00. (My personal vehicle fuel
cost to "work" on these aircraft is also reimbursed.)
I tell this story for a number of reasons.
First, you don't need to be rich to fly if you are willing to make
sacrifices.
Second, treat people right and they will treat you the same.
Third, if the potential buyers hadn't tried to cheat and lie to the widow,
and offered her a reasonable price for what was obviously a fine product,
they would be flying a great airplane today for a cost less the the
investment in the airframe kit and engine alone, not me.
Now, when I approached this group a year or so ago I was immediately
condemned by the self-called "experts" when I inquired about Sport Pilot
Privileges with a Series 5. These "experts", who "knew it all" said I didn't
"deserve" to own or fly such a craft as I hadn't built it myself. One went
so far as to send E-mail glorifying his "vast" experience and "requesting"
that I never, ever, fly "over his house" as he considered me a danger due to
my "limited knowledge of aviation."
That person then proceeded within the year to ball his own aircraft up in a
field for reasons that have never been explained in this forum.
. I shouldn't admit it but I find that quite ironic.
I am pleased to say that I am able to, and do, fly my "5" under Sport Pilot
privileges. Perfectly legal under the LSA rules and regulations. Learn what
"Maximum Takeoff Weight" is, as defined by the FAA in regards to LSA issues,
and apply it.
In the words of Forest Gump..."That is all I have to say about that."
Steve B.
Michigan
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_____
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. Share now!
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Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) |
Lowell,
I am still wondering why you are suggesting no safety cable on the bungee gear?
There are there for a reason to arrest the gear in the event of a bungee failure.
Without it alot of damage could occur. If there was a safety bulletin
that I missed please post it.
If the reason to not use them is to not bend a cross member in the event of a hard
landing then i would suggest some one better learn to land better. You are
talking some serious G's here to do that kind of damage. Possibly close to what
you experienced in your accident.
I would highly recommend that you talk to your Kitfox supplier to see if it is
advisable to not use safety cables -- they are there for a reason.
Next point -- is it possible that the cable in the cases you mention where never
properly installed and possibly too long or short of a loop that caused this
damage?
The bungee suspension could be made stronger and eliminate the Bungees by using
a compression spring type suspension , but you would end up like the Grove or
Hammerhead gear with extra weight that was not necessary. Goes back to the
Keep it simple theory. How does formula go? For every pound of weight you
add to your plane you will lose 3 to 4 FPM of climb rate.
Speaking of bent tubing -- I would rather see Bent 4130 tubing then cracked or
broken tubing that was too brittle.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155645#155645
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Gear allignment |
I measured the toe on my Skis today , damn things are so loose on axles it varied
between 1 " toe in to zero toe.
Flys fine and i guess the skis a little more forgiving.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155648#155648
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! |
> What a slimey thing to say! Kick 'em while they're down, is that
> your motto? Maybe it's time to apply your second lesson ("treat
> people right and they will treat you the same.").
Heck, I am waiting for Lowell to get back on the horse again and do what he loves
doing , building and flying. If I lived near him , I would definalty be
dropping in and dragging him out. :)
Mike, you should take a step back and listen to yourself when you quote these things
--treat
people right and they will treat you the same.").
Your attitude comes across a bit strong at times you know.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155647#155647
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! |
I truley belive that the LSA companys are out pricing there
aircraft.They are pushing out the little guys that want 2 fly.what
happen to the LSA idea.where to build a low price airplane ,own and
fly.and afford.if more companys would have lower price kits,and engines
to put in them.there would be more people that could afford to fly.to
beable to fly.and to own.there would be more people see there dreams
come true.as it did for me.I bought my KF N554KF off of barnstomers.I
looked for the best deal for my hard earn $$.and found my dream of
23+years.a real nice KF2.total time of 160hr.I even been teaching my
self to fly her.And doing a good job of it.I had no TW time but a few
hours in a friends L2.why??because of a dream 23yr ago.that I some day
would have my own KF.I am proud of my little KF with the little 582.and
I am all so proud of this group.and the friends that I made here.that
help keep me and my KF2 N554KF flying.and guys that is what it is all
about..to keep flying our kitfoxs and haveing fun by doing so....and
THANKS to my kitfox family here on the list..Steve Shinabery
N554KF,,KF2 and proud of it
kitfoxmike wrote:
>
> Oh, one more thing steve.
>
> In the four years that I've had my P license I have had enough trouble from pilots
that it would make you vomit if I told you.
>
> I have this saying, I'm not a pilot, I fly airplanes, pilots are axx hxxxx,
and I don't want to be one of them.
>
> --------
> kitfoxmike
> model IV, 1200
> speedster
> 912ul
> building
> RV7a
> slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit
> "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying
enough"
> Do not archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155620#155620
>
>
>
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Introduction of new member |
Once you fly a Kitfox IV , and get back into a a 150 or 152 -- you will want
out in a hurry and likely never go back.
Show me a 150 do this http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=kitfoxflyer
maybe a texas taildragger with a 0360 180 hp :) mine is 65 HP :)
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155650#155650
Message 39
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| Subject: | TAKE A LOOK MY VIDEOS... |
LIST: LOOKS MY VIDEOS IN YOUTUBE
SEND ME ANY COMMENTS!!!
WWW.YOUTUBE.COM/KITFOXN212PR
Message 40
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| Subject: | Short Changing Ourselves!! |
I can't believe what I just read! First he describes himself as if he's
campaigning for sainthood (his version), made dubious assertions about
other members, then that disgusting comment about Lowell Fitt's crash
that nearly killed himself and his wife. (Yes, we all know who he was
talking about) The details of it are Lowell's business and nobody
else's unless he chooses to share them.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT
"Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first
be overcome".- Samuel Johnson
It was recently posted.
"I believe some old guy died a ways back and his old widow had no
idea of the value of his Kitfox, and didn't remember to put any value on
the 1000 to 1500 hours he put into building it, so she basically gave it
away (just to be rid of it) to some spam-canner that said it was just a
TOY and only worth $15K tops...."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
I was someone... perhaps THE one, who purchased a (possibly the
mentioned) Kitfox for $15,000.
It is a Series 5, with a 912 UL.
It had a grand total of..... 26 hours flying time.
As the great radio personality Paul Harvey says...
"Now..., for the rest of the story....."
For 10 years prior to the death of the original owner and builder,
Ray, I was the A&P \IA who maintained and inspected his "fleet" of
aircraft. This was composed of a Dehavilland Super Chipmunk, a Cessna
337, and 2 Fairchild 24's and a North American "Yale". (a WWII trainer.)
This coincided with my working on his neighbors North American AT-6 and
Boeing Stearman. I was in the Warbird restoration business at the time
and my qualifications unquestionable.
I did this work at a very (very) low hourly rate, after hours from
my "day" job, as I enjoyed working on the aircraft mentioned and we
often went on late evening flights in the various aircraft, all in the
name of "maintenance tests"....naturally.
My flying experience began with the purchase of a 1948 PA-15
Vagabond for $4500.00 back in 19(cough cough) and I owned and flew the
plane for 15 years before selling it to help finance the kids college. I
did a total restoration of it about half way through that time and
learned the art of dope and fabric at that time. To this day I consider
it my speciality and there are many local examples of my work flying, be
it individual flight controls or entire airframes.
Over the past 30 years I have (honestly) logged 1300 + hours in
aircraft ranging from that original PA-15 Vagabond (first solo) to
J-3's, 4's, 20's, Cessnas 120\140's, Champs, Citabrias Stearmans, T-6's,
and best of all, 4 different WWII German Fi-156 Fieselers "Storch's" If
you ever saw a "Storch" at Oshkosh during the '90's....I flew one of
them there.
Hardly a "spam-canner" pilot,
Soon after Ray's death, the widow asked me to determine a "value"
for the Kitfox, but not being familiar with the Experimental
Amateur-Built market all I could was go through his receipts he
maliciously saved during construction and determined that he had spent
$41,000 which included airframe kit, engine and installation kit, King
digital flip-flop comm, transponder, encoder, elt, panel design and
installation, Kitfox interior, and upgrades such as Grove gear, Hooker
Harness setup, Cleveland wheels and brakes and a Scott tail wheel
assembly.
Ray did, in my opinion, a beautiful job of constructing the
aircraft, and the covering job is excellent. Everything was done, as I
later discovered, "by the book", the construction manuals check-off
squares dated and initialed. All work performed is what we in the
business would refer to as "aircraft quality" Top notch all the
way..That is how Ray was too.
For 5 years after his death ( we now have 15 years of family
association) I helped the widow with the upkeep of the hanger, lawn
equipment servicing and repair and once or twice a year would run the
Kitfox up and change the oil. It was a "cute" little thing, but I had no
interest in it and was not in a position to purchase and assume the cost
of ownership of another aircraft.
All this time the aircraft was advertised for sale and she was
asking $35,000, plus or minus.
Every so often I would get a call from her saying that potential
buyers would be coming to look at it and could I be there at the time.
"Sure..., no problem.".
I lost count of the tire kickers, Yeager wannabe's and Kitfox
"experts" who would try to con the poor old lady, thinking she had no
idea of what she was trying to sell. They all tried to lowball her
price, many stating that it was just "junk", with no finish paint, and
good for a few parts only. I stayed out of $ negotiation as she could
take care of herself.
Others wanted a "fresh annual" (it's a "condition
report"...jeeze!) No one ever brought an A&P or professional appraiser
with them. Some even wanted to fly it as is...just to "get the feel for
it" I do not recall one person who stated " It's a fine piece of
workmanship, I could trailer it out of here , give it a good once-over,
and be happy, Let's negotiate on the price."
Everyone wanted to be the one who had discovered the "barn find"
of the century and steal it away from the old widow. Not to be....
Note: I would not do the "condition report" because...
#1, In this litigation crazy, sue everyone for anything world we
have now, I didn't want to "get involved".with these "strangers".
#2, I was not familiar with the Kitfox type aircraft and even less
knowledgeable about the Rotax 912UL engine.
She understood this completely and was fine with it. .
Last year the widow lady called and said the plane was leaking
fuel...could I come over and fix it as she was intent on emptying the
hanger so she could move from the airpark home into a local condo. The
leak originated at the mil-6000 fuel lines, which I replaced with
quality automotive hose. I suspect this was due to ethanol contamination
over the 5 years of inactivity.
At this time she was tired of the cons and asked if I was interested
it the plane, even though she knew my financial situation would not
allow me to pay her asking price. She stated a "quite" lower price then
I expected, but still out of my reach.
I went home that night and realized that she was intent on selling
the plane, now not to recover the cost but to be able to move off the
property. She really didn't need the money. She was (is) quite well off
financially. She just wanted to get out from under it and be done with
it.
After a sleepless night I went back and told her I would love to
give the bird a good home, but just didn't have the money. She asked
what I could afford, and I blurted out that $15,000 was the most I could
do with out taking out a loan. And that was the God's honest truth. If
my home furnace went out, or my roof developed a leak, I would be "up a
creek..." as they say...
She looked at me, and, I swear, with a tear in her eye, she looked
"up" to where Ray now resides and asked him, out loud...., "Raymond...?
Is that OK with you?? (pause..)
She then said to me..."That's fine."
The next day, she got paid, and I, with help, folded the wings and
pulled it home with the tailwheel tied down over the top of a padded
pick-up truck lift gate to my garage. I spent the better part of the
next few weeks going over every nut, bolt and pop rivit to determine
it's condition. It was perfect, as I have said, By the book . The little
nubbies were still on the tires, the seats still had fuzz on them. It
had that "new airplane" smell too.
I have now put another 40 or so hours flight time on it this past
season. I have also worked out a deal with a T-6, CubCrafter and Bonanza
owner where as I receive a free, insulated, heated hanger at a local
airport in exchange for my occasional A&P and IA services. So far my
cost of ownership, with the exception of the purchase price, has been
$00.00. (My personal vehicle fuel cost to "work" on these aircraft is
also reimbursed.)
I tell this story for a number of reasons.
First, you don't need to be rich to fly if you are willing to make
sacrifices.
Second, treat people right and they will treat you the same.
Third, if the potential buyers hadn't tried to cheat and lie to the
widow, and offered her a reasonable price for what was obviously a fine
product, they would be flying a great airplane today for a cost less the
the investment in the airframe kit and engine alone, not me.
Now, when I approached this group a year or so ago I was
immediately condemned by the self-called "experts" when I inquired about
Sport Pilot Privileges with a Series 5. These "experts", who "knew it
all" said I didn't "deserve" to own or fly such a craft as I hadn't
built it myself. One went so far as to send E-mail glorifying his "vast"
experience and "requesting" that I never, ever, fly "over his house" as
he considered me a danger due to my "limited knowledge of aviation."
That person then proceeded within the year to ball his own aircraft
up in a field for reasons that have never been explained in this forum.
. I shouldn't admit it but I find that quite ironic.
I am pleased to say that I am able to, and do, fly my "5" under
Sport Pilot privileges. Perfectly legal under the LSA rules and
regulations. Learn what "Maximum Takeoff Weight" is, as defined by the
FAA in regards to LSA issues, and apply it.
In the words of Forest Gump..."That is all I have to say about
that."
Steve B.
Michigan
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! |
Steve, The question is are LSA's pricy ?
Or are older Kitfox just so plentiful that they have become cheap?
Rotax 582 is say 9k now
912 15 to 20 k
plus mounts , exhaust , props etc............
We are seeing the used market very attractive for used Kitfox buyers , it will
dry up at some point.
You have to remember that the LSA manufacturers are not pumping out 5,000 planes
each like Kitfox did and if they did then the market for their used planes
would crater in too likely.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155655#155655
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: TAKE A LOOK MY VIDEOS... |
Pedro,
Great looking plane! Nice job.
Dan B
PEDRO PEREZ <KITFOX@CHOICECABLE.NET> wrote:
LIST: LOOKS MY VIDEOS IN YOUTUBE
SEND ME ANY COMMENTS!!!
WWW.YOUTUBE.COM/KITFOXN212PR
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! |
Dave that is very true.I belive that kitfox was ahead of there time.
dave wrote:
>
> Steve, The question is are LSA's pricy ?
> Or are older Kitfox just so plentiful that they have become cheap?
> Rotax 582 is say 9k now
> 912 15 to 20 k
>
> plus mounts , exhaust , props etc............
>
> We are seeing the used market very attractive for used Kitfox buyers , it will
dry up at some point.
>
> You have to remember that the LSA manufacturers are not pumping out 5,000 planes
each like Kitfox did and if they did then the market for their used planes
would crater in too likely.
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
> http://www.cfisher.com/
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155655#155655
>
>
>
Message 44
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| Subject: | TAKE A LOOK MY VIDEOS... |
Pedro,
That is one of the best shows I have seen for a long time, you have a lot to
be proud of, it looks great.
I remember my first day, while watching your video, it was a great feeling.
John oakley
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PEDRO PEREZ
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 7:49 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: TAKE A LOOK MY VIDEOS...
LIST: LOOKS MY VIDEOS IN YOUTUBE
SEND ME ANY COMMENTS!!!
WWW.YOUTUBE.COM/KITFOXN212PR
Message 45
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| Subject: | TAKE A LOOK MY VIDEOS... |
Pedro,
I agree with John, your video is awesome, and your plane is
beautiful. Congratulations!
Mike G.
N728KF
Phoenix, AZ
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! |
Dave sez:
>Mike, you should take a step back and listen to yourself when you
>quote these things --treat people right and they will treat you the
>same.").
>
>Your attitude comes across a bit strong at times you know.
Yes, I know Dave, my tone was deliberate. I am getting really sick
and tired of people trashing others on the list for no reason.
Sometimes you have to rub their noses in it.
What is the point of this list? To get together with others that
share our interest in building and flying Avids and Kitfoxes. Do we
agree on everything? Of course not--it would be boring if we did.
But when folks start hitting below the belt I'm going to call them on
it, it's my job as one of the list administrators.
Now, everyone. Play nice!
Mike G.
N728KF
Phoenix, AZ
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) |
Dave sez:
>If the reason to not use [safety cables on the gear] is to not bend
>a cross member in the event of a hard landing then i would suggest
>some one better learn to land better. You are talking some serious
>G's here to do that kind of damage. Possibly close to what you
>experienced in your accident.
Actually, it doesn't take all that many gs. There have been several
cases of moderately hard landings stretching the bungees far enough
for the safety cables to put an excessive load on the truss and
collapsed it.
Rather than remove the cables I decided to use the Grove gear to
avoid the problem.
Mike G.
N728KF
Phoenix, AZ
Message 48
| INDEX | Bÿÿÿÿto MÿÿÿÿINDEÿÿÿÿont>ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ><ÿÿÿÿli><ÿÿÿÿEF="ÿÿÿÿSAGEÿÿÿÿ ÿÿÿÿb>PRÿÿÿÿUSÿÿÿÿ
<ÿÿÿÿtd><ÿÿÿÿa HRÿÿÿÿ#MESÿÿÿÿ49">ÿÿÿÿt siÿÿÿÿ1 faÿÿÿÿimesÿÿÿÿ Romÿÿÿÿ ÿÿÿÿEXT<ÿÿÿÿt><ÿÿÿÿ sizÿÿÿÿ facÿÿÿÿmes ÿÿÿÿRomaÿÿÿÿ> Skÿÿÿÿo NEÿÿÿÿessaÿÿÿÿfontÿÿÿÿ>ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿref=ÿÿÿÿlto:ÿÿÿÿox-lÿÿÿÿmatrÿÿÿÿs.coÿÿÿÿbjecÿÿÿÿ: Kiÿÿÿÿ-Lisÿÿÿÿe: Sÿÿÿÿ corÿÿÿÿ- FWÿÿÿÿtrivÿÿÿÿock ÿÿÿÿs --ÿÿÿÿW (tÿÿÿÿ">LISÿÿÿÿont>ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ> ÿÿÿÿy toÿÿÿÿT Reÿÿÿÿing ÿÿÿÿ Mesÿÿÿÿ<ÿÿÿÿ/td>ÿÿÿÿ>
ÿÿÿÿ>SENÿÿÿÿ/fonÿÿÿÿb><ÿÿÿÿfontÿÿÿÿe=-1ÿÿÿÿe=TiÿÿÿÿNew ÿÿÿÿn><ÿÿÿÿ/a><ÿÿÿÿ<ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿt siÿÿÿÿ facÿÿÿÿimesÿÿÿÿ romÿÿÿÿtimeÿÿÿÿolorÿÿÿÿf000ÿÿÿÿb><ÿÿÿÿ/fonÿÿÿÿtd><ÿÿÿÿ<ÿÿÿÿidthÿÿÿÿ%" aÿÿÿÿ="leÿÿÿÿ<ÿÿÿÿ sizÿÿÿÿfaceÿÿÿÿmes ÿÿÿÿromaÿÿÿÿimesÿÿÿÿlor=ÿÿÿÿ0000ÿÿÿÿom: ÿÿÿÿ><ÿÿÿÿowelÿÿÿÿtt" ÿÿÿÿ<ÿÿÿÿle><ÿÿÿÿe boÿÿÿÿ="0"ÿÿÿÿlpadÿÿÿÿ="0"ÿÿÿÿlspaÿÿÿÿ="0"ÿÿÿÿth="ÿÿÿÿ"><ÿÿÿÿ sizÿÿÿÿfaceÿÿÿÿmes ÿÿÿÿromaÿÿÿÿimesÿÿÿÿlor=ÿÿÿÿ0000ÿÿÿÿ>Subÿÿÿÿ: <ÿÿÿÿidthÿÿÿÿ%" aÿÿÿÿ="leÿÿÿÿ<ÿÿÿÿ>ÿÿÿÿShocÿÿÿÿrds ÿÿÿÿWIW ÿÿÿÿv)dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 6:31 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv)
>
> Lowell,
>
> I am still wondering why you are suggesting no safety cable on the bungee
> gear? There are there for a reason to arrest the gear in the event of a
> bungee failure. Without it alot of damage could occur. If there was a
> safety bulletin that I missed please post it.
>
> If the reason to not use them is to not bend a cross member in the event
> of a hard landing then i would suggest some one better learn to land
> better. You are talking some serious G's here to do that kind of damage.
> Possibly close to what you experienced in your accident.
>
> I would highly recommend that you talk to your Kitfox supplier to see if
> it is advisable to not use safety cables -- they are there for a reason.
>
> Next point -- is it possible that the cable in the cases you mention where
> never properly installed and possibly too long or short of a loop that
> caused this damage?
>
> The bungee suspension could be made stronger and eliminate the Bungees by
> using a compression spring type suspension , but you would end up like the
> Grove or Hammerhead gear with extra weight that was not necessary. Goes
> back to the Keep it simple theory. How does formula go? For every
> pound of weight you add to your plane you will lose 3 to 4 FPM of climb
> rate.
>
>
> Speaking of bent tubing -- I would rather see Bent 4130 tubing then
> cracked or broken tubing that was too brittle.
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
> http://www.cfisher.com/
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155645#155645
>
>
>
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! |
Kitfoxers, I saw a picture on Matt's Place of a mod IV that was converted t
o a biplane by Denny. Has anybody any idea how to find out more about that
plane?> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!> From: customt
rans@qwest.net> Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:17:52 -0800> To: kitfox-list@matro
est.net>> > Steve,> Bravo, stay with it. Have fun. And most of all don't li
sten to the so called experts.> > --------> kitfoxmike> model IV, 1200> spe
edster> 912ul> building > RV7a> slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit> "if
you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying en
ough"> Do not archive> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://
=======================> > >
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: TAKE A LOOK MY VIDEOS... |
At 06:49 PM 1/3/2008, you wrote:
>LIST: LOOKS MY VIDEOS IN YOUTUBE
>
>SEND ME ANY COMMENTS!!!
Pedro, that was just great! Short and sweet. (I particularly liked
the Top Gun poster. I'll be able to put a face to the plane at
Oshkosh this year. You WILL be going, right?) If you think you like
your Kitfox a lot now - just wait, it only gets better.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Do not archive
Message 51
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Was ready to take the next step in covering today and start spraying the polybrush.
Prepped the surfaces of my horz,rudder,and elevator using the presurface
cleaner. Mixed up my 3:1 mix and upon spraying, was in awe of the most impressive
orange peeling I have ever seen. I thought it might be just one component
so after getting the mess off of the elevator, I tried the rudder. Another
feat in orange peeling!!!
Any experience/advice would be greatly appreciated.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155681#155681
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! Steve, are you out there? |
"I was someone... perhaps THE one, who..." Steve is referring to in the
latter part of his post. Frankly, I am a bit suprised as to his
recollection that my request that he nof fly over my house had to do with
his piloting skills (maybe more to do with his reading skills, I guess) as I
knew nothing about his ability in that area (Until reading today of his 1300
hours over 30 years). My request he not fly over my house was solely due to
the fact that aviation insurance sort of vanishes when flying in violation
of the FARs, which I still think is the case when flying an airplane
certified for more than the LSA limits without a medical. So Steve, if you
are flying your Model V without a medical, the request still stands, please
don't fly over my house. Unless, of course you really do have more assets
that you mentioned to that poor widow. Sorry guys, and I do mean it, but
the question arises. How many of us got into our airplanes without help
from our friendly bank or at least the credit card, Huh? I can shed a tear
for how Steve helped out this poor widow that only wanted to clean out her
hangar. But the tearing suddenly dries up when I remember that it was him
that priced the airplane in the first place and stood by as her adviser
sending away all the self serving offers from those creeps - most, if not
all in excess of $15,000, I am sure. Sorry again guys, but any commodity is
only worth what another is willing to pay. $15,000 vs. $30,000 or maybe
$28,000 or even $25,000 Whoee! Did I hear the word lowballing somewhere in
a previous post. Geez!
Steve your other comment about me has a hint of merit, I have to admit. I
re-read most of the posts after our hard landing - crash if you want to call
it that, or ball, if you prefer - and admit that I wasn't very forthcoming
on the list as to the cause. John McBean did report a telephone
conversation with me in which he posted to the list the primary cause of the
let down - "Lowell had a gradual loss of Oil Pressure that eventually went
to Zero.. He chose to land with power before an engine seize."
I do find it curious that with all the communication with the FAA and AIG,
including personal interviews, written statements, and very thorough
document submissions, It didn't occur to me to make a better explanation to
you, Steve, and perhaps other interested members on the list. It was not
intentional. My real excuse is more likely due to the volumn of private
traffic on my email account from well wishers requesting information on our
wellbeing and a corresponding amount of outgoing describing our condition,
and lots of personal emails detailing the crash, I didn't realize that
John's brief statement was all there was with regard to the cause of the
crash submitted to the list until now. Steve, this was not intended to
slight you to be sure, It's just that my life outside of the list was a bit
overwhelming at the time. And wonderfully, still is.
So here goes Steve. About ten minutes into our flight I had a total loss of
oil pressure and decided that the clearing below us was my best shot at
putting it down. We were in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada Mountains
with rolling hills pretty much covered with Oak trees and our version of
scraggly pines. A better choice? Subject to the second guessing we all
do - possibly - but then a whole new set of potential outcomes come in to
play, some better and others potentially not good at all - no thank you. In
any event, we were running out of clearing before we touched down, so I
pulled the nose up to stall and planted it rather than taking our chances
with an Oak tree. Would I do it again? I can live a long time without an
airplane.
Regarding experts. My definition would be someone who has direct experience
in a subject. Sorry again one last time, but for the best information about
my airplane or the Rotax 912 series engines, I contact Mark, Larry, Hal,
Dan, or Ken. No, Steve, maintaining T-6s or Storchs or even flying them,
for that matter, do not an expert make regarding Kitfoxes despite your 40
hours flight time and a bunch of oil changes. 582s? I'd definitely lend an
ear to Bruce Harrington or Don Smythe. Two trained engineers, the latter in
quality control at Newport News on Nuclear Submarines. Both these guys took
that kind of thinking to the bank with their airplanes. Float planes? Paul
Seehafer. NSI? Deke. The list could go on and on. The point here is that
these guys are able to give answers not just opinions. Just my opinion.
Lowell
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 84KF
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:19 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!
(snip)
> Now, when I approached this group a year or so ago I was immediately
> condemned by the self-called "experts" when I inquired about Sport Pilot
> Privileges with a Series 5. These "experts", who "knew it all" said I
> didn't
> "deserve" to own or fly such a craft as I hadn't built it myself. One went
> so far as to send E-mail glorifying his "vast" experience and "requesting"
> that I never, ever, fly "over his house" as he considered me a danger due
> to
> my "limited knowledge of aviation."
>
> That person then proceeded within the year to ball his own aircraft up in
> a
> field for reasons that have never been explained in this forum.
>
> . I shouldn't admit it but I find that quite ironic.
>
> I am pleased to say that I am able to, and do, fly my "5" under Sport
> Pilot
> privileges. Perfectly legal under the LSA rules and regulations. Learn
> what
> "Maximum Takeoff Weight" is, as defined by the FAA in regards to LSA
> issues,
> and apply it.
>
> In the words of Forest Gump..."That is all I have to say about that."
>
> Steve B.
>
> Michigan
>
>
>
Message 53
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| Subject: | Re: Orange Peel!!! |
Assuming you polyspray has not gone bad, and I don't know that it does, You
might try brushing the first coat, very thinned out according to air temp,
with a stiff brush making sure you get good penetration. A capful, about a
teaspoon full, of polyfiber "blush retarder" will keep it from drying out to
fast before it has a chance to flow out. Just brush enough to make it
penetrate... don't let it start to "rope" as you brush. If it does...more
retarder. It will now take longer to dry and will tend to attract and hold
any air born dust. Bad news as you cannot sand polybrush.
Why is polybrush pink??? It is tinted so one can see when it penetrates. Use
that as a guide, and it is normal for it to "run on the inside of the
surface being covered. That also shows that you have excellent penetration
necessary for "encapsulation" of the dacron weave. Just don't apply it so
thinned out that it drips from the surface it's being applied to to the
surface below.
This is THE most important step in getting a good smooth final finish as any
imperfection in the polybrush will show up when the polyspyay applications
start. You will see...believe me.
Many will say you get a better finish if you spray the first coat, and it
does eliminate the chance of "roping tthe dope" but if it isn,t working go
with the "brush the well thinned, retarder if necessary" method. Do a cross
coat the same way, well thinned, don't continue brushing when it starts to
drag with the brush stroke(rope) and then go back to the spray gun method,
again, well thinned.
Start with just a dusting coat or 2, let dry, and go for a more wet look
A backlight held in just the right position will help you see the polybrush
starts to flow. DON'T let it run..
Omygod...I could go on and on... I love fabric work.
Good luck
Steve 84KF
>
>
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: Orange Peel!!! |
"Assuming you polyspray...."
Opps... I meant "polybrush."..sorry.
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