Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:56 AM - Kitfox III Radiator (Ken Harrison)
2. 07:10 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (Noel Loveys)
3. 07:11 AM - Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Ken Harrison)
4. 07:17 AM - Re: water overflow bottle height (Noel Loveys)
5. 07:31 AM - Re: Re: water overflow bottle height (Noel Loveys)
6. 07:32 AM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Dan Billingsley)
7. 07:33 AM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (sbennett3)
8. 08:06 AM - Re: water overflow bottle height (jridgway)
9. 08:14 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (akflyer)
10. 08:21 AM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Marco Menezes)
11. 08:36 AM - Re: water overflow into expansion tank (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
12. 08:36 AM - Need Fiberglass Seats (Paul Morel)
13. 08:49 AM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Rick)
14. 08:49 AM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Noel Loveys)
15. 08:55 AM - seat pans cracking- kitfox model III (William Malpass)
16. 08:59 AM - Re: Re: water overflow bottle height (Noel Loveys)
17. 09:06 AM - Re: Re: Snowboards for skis (Noel Loveys)
18. 09:51 AM - Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 12/21/08 (Ed Gray)
19. 10:11 AM - Re: Re: Slipping with Flaps (Guy Buchanan)
20. 10:17 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (patrick reilly)
21. 10:39 AM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Lynn Matteson)
22. 10:40 AM - Re: Need Fiberglass Seats (Guy Buchanan)
23. 10:40 AM - Re: [!! SPAM] seat pans cracking- kitfox model III (Guy Buchanan)
24. 10:40 AM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 12/21/08 (Guy Buchanan)
25. 10:48 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (Lynn Matteson)
26. 11:02 AM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Lowell Fitt)
27. 11:19 AM - Re: Re: Slipping with Flaps (Randy Daughenbaugh)
28. 11:43 AM - Re: Slipping with Flaps - C172 (Joel Mapes)
29. 12:13 PM - Re: Need Fiberglass Seats (jdmcbean)
30. 12:17 PM - Re: Need Fiberglass Seats (Paul Morel)
31. 12:18 PM - Re: skis (fox5flyer)
32. 12:32 PM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Michael Gibbs)
33. 01:09 PM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Lynn Matteson)
34. 01:16 PM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Lynn Matteson)
35. 01:31 PM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Weiss Richard)
36. 01:35 PM - Re: skis (Lynn Matteson)
37. 01:44 PM - [!! SPAM] Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 12/21/08 (akflyer)
38. 01:47 PM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Lynn Matteson)
39. 01:52 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 12/21/08 (Lynn Matteson)
40. 01:57 PM - Re: Slipping with Flaps (akflyer)
41. 03:27 PM - Everybody ground loops? (Paul Folbrecht)
42. 03:31 PM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Tom Jones)
43. 03:46 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (Tom Jones)
44. 04:02 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (Lynn Matteson)
45. 05:13 PM - Ground loops? (Dee Young)
46. 05:23 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (Paul Folbrecht)
47. 06:53 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (Guy Buchanan)
48. 07:37 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (floran higgins)
49. 07:37 PM - test (Larry Huntley)
50. 07:59 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (akflyer)
51. 08:06 PM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (patrick reilly)
52. 08:25 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (AKFLYERBOB)
53. 09:24 PM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Lowell Fitt)
54. 09:36 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (wingnut)
55. 09:37 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (akflyer)
56. 10:22 PM - MEK question (jlfernan)
57. 10:59 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (Michel Verheughe)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Kitfox III Radiator |
First off, thank you to all who sent suggestions for my transponder noise
problem. I am working my way through the suggestions and will let you know
what happens.
I am right in the middle of my annual condition inspection and have decided
it=B9s time for a new radiator. I have found a couple sources on the web but
thought I might ask if anyone has a newish/good condition radiator lying
around that will fit on my Kitfox III.
Thanks for the help!
Ken
Message 2
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| Subject: | Snowboards for skis |
KrazyKarpet is a piece of plastic around two feet wide by three and a half
feet long that kids use to go sliding... Problem is there is no control
once a kid starts to slide. Many end up with back problems from hitting
bumps on the ground or serious injury from hitting large rocks or trees.
Even a small light kid can gain some pretty dangerous speeds on the things
even on gentle slopes. They are not allowed at all anywhere including the
parking lot on a ski hill. That's why the hospitals have so many of them.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Crowder
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 9:26 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
This sounds like what I purchased a few years ago to put under heavy objects
so as to allow one person to take hold of a lead rope and easily move very
heavy object around on carpet. I believe they came from a carpet layer's
supply house. They were unbelievable for that.
Jim Crowder
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 1:57 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
Before you start doing anything with aluminium, especially in direct contact
with snow, consider the fact that bare aluminium will ice up like nothing
you can imagine... even under the coldest driest conditions.
The very best thing to have in contact with the snow is Teflon plastic...
My father built several komitiks (sleighs) to pull behind his snowmobile.
The best thing he found for running surfaces was Krazy Karpet. Most
hospitals have thousands of them turned in by the parents of injured
children for free. They are easy to attach using strips of Teflon plastic
and screws and they are easy to replace.... and there is no way you will
ever get them to ice up! KrazyKarpet comes in different colours so if you
want you can colour code the year you last recovered the base of your skis.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of patrick reilly
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 2:35 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
Randy, Deke, And Lynn, How about attaching "spray rails" to the edges of the
board made out of 1/8" or so aluminum. And if you don't cut out the board
completely behind the wheel, attach a bent up piece behind the wheel to
eliminate the cheese cutter effect.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
> From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:48:53 -0500
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> What you're proposing, Randy, is basically how the Wipaire skis are
> designed. I have a picture of them, and it looks like the edges are
> turned up slightly. I also believe that's how Leonard made the
> bottoms that he attached to his skis.
> I'm going to attach side "rails" onto my new ski bottoms, such that
> they bend up at the edges, and act like spray rails on a boat.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 21, 2008, at 12:26 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote:
>
> > Deke,
> >
> > I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a
> > few used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with the
> > entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them easy
> > to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation
> > behind the axel.
> >
> >
> >
> > The one thing I don't like with this approach is the good boards
> > have really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow boarding,
> > but I think slightly turned up edges may be desirable for ktifox skis.
> >
> >
> >
> > Randy
> >
> >
>
>
>
>= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
&g===================
>
>
>
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking |
What is the best way to keep the fiberglass seat from cracking? Mine has
very small cracks that are right at the outside edges both sides, basically
half way up the back. It makes a crackling sound every time I get in. I
have re-enforced the seat with some seat belt material underneath but was
wondering if anyone has a better solution.
I am going to repair the fiberglass and thought I=B9d check to see if anyone
has dealt with this problem. I don=B9t want to make the fiberglass repair an
d
then just have it crack again in the same place.
I=B9ve read about the seats failing and jamming the controls...always in the
back of my mind.
Thanks,
Ken
Message 4
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| Subject: | water overflow bottle height |
Being the bottle should be open at the top to ambient pressure it should be
a few inches below the rad cap. The really important item is the hose going
to the overflow bottle should come from the low pressure side of the cap.
When I got my plane first the builder somehow or the other put the overflow
via a "T" on the high pressure side of the cap... I noticed that before I
even started the engine. No wonder the builder of the plane complained to
me about having cooling problems with the engine.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Weiss Richard
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 12:11 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: water overflow bottle height
Jack,
Which engine are you using? Each model may be different.
On my 912ULS, the 10 inch measurement you cite is accurate, but the formula
you wrote is not for volume. The volume would be volume = r2 h. Where r
is the radius of the hose and h is the length (height) of the hose. This
may be air or fluid depending on your installation and how you fill the
reservoir and overflow container. If the hose has air, it will eventually
be released out the hole in the cap of the overflow bottle. I don't think
there's a problem with that small amount of air anyway, since it can't back
flow into the reservoir due to the pressure valve in the cap. When the
engine heats up, the air in the hose will expand and some of it will bubble
out the breather hole in the cap and be replaced with the fluid in the
overflow container. If the pressure gets to great in the system, the cap
valve releases and allows coolant to flow into the overflow container. Thus
the air is purged out anyway. Just be sure you have sufficient coolant in
the overflow container so air is not sucked into the system when it cools
down.
Hope this helps.
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
On Dec 21, 2008, at 6:34 PM, jridgway wrote:
I understand from the ROTAX documentation that the water overflow bottle can
be up to 10 inches below the radiator cap. Won't this allow the air
(volume=10 inches x inner hose diameter) in the overflow line enter the
engine before it actually brings up any water? Is this small amount of air
OK? Does this air get purged out with water during the cooling recovery
cycle? I am not using a separate expansion tank.
Thanks..Jack
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220456#220456
=
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: water overflow bottle height |
The whole idea of that bottle is that you can run the cooling system without
any air in the system at all.
As the fluid warms up and expands it gets pushed through the pressure cap
and then flows through the line to the overflow bottle... The overflow
bottle should have around three times the volume as the greatest expansion
of all the fluid in the pressurized system.
As the fluid cools down, like after a flight, the contracting coolant will
actually draw coolant from the bottle through the pressure cap, designed to
keep a specific pressure in the system, to refill the high pressure side of
the cooling system. For that reason the bottle should never be either empty
or full. Most bottles have a range from 1/3 to 2/3 full as the operating
range. The bottle should be open to ambient pressure at the top.
Some systems as mentioned have the connecting tube on the bottom of the
reservoir, others use a tube that extends through the cap to the bottom of
the reservoir. My plane has a spray nine bottle with a straw like tube that
extends to the bottom of the bottle. Air can easily enter the bottle around
where the tube passes through the cap.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 12:32 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: water overflow bottle height
The hose comes off the bottom of the tank so it will only draw liquid. You
should not have an air issue.
An example would be when you take the cap off the coolant expansion tank air
can get in and the fluid level is not always at the top. It has an air space
at times if the level is down slightly.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Service Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220482#220482
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking |
Ken,
If you are thinking about making repairs you could really strengthen critical areas
if you used carbon fiber instead of fiberglass...just a thought.
Dan B
Mesa, AZ
--- On Mon, 12/22/08, Ken Harrison <kenharrison@comporium.net> wrote:
> From: Ken Harrison <kenharrison@comporium.net>
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking
> To: "Kitfox List" <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Monday, December 22, 2008, 8:11 AM
> What is the best way to keep the fiberglass seat from
> cracking? Mine has
> very small cracks that are right at the outside edges both
> sides, basically
> half way up the back. It makes a crackling sound every
> time I get in. I
> have re-enforced the seat with some seat belt material
> underneath but was
> wondering if anyone has a better solution.
>
> I am going to repair the fiberglass and thought Id check
> to see if anyone
> has dealt with this problem. I dont want to make the
> fiberglass repair and
> then just have it crack again in the same place.
>
> Ive read about the seats failing and jamming the
> controls...always in the
> back of my mind.
>
> Thanks,
> Ken
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking |
Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan CrackingKen, I don't have suggestions to help you
fix your seat issue, just a reminder that there are control rods running under
that seat that if collapsed on will keep you from being able to control ailerons.
I had that happen to me once. Maybe a new seat can be on your Christmas
list. Personally, i'd replace it. Steve Bennett classic 4 912ul... Durham
NC
In a message dated 12/22/08 10:12:44 Eastern Standard Time, kenharrison@comporium.net
writes:
What is the best way to keep the fiberglass seat from cracking? Mine has very
small cracks that are right at the outside edges both sides, basically half way
up the back. It makes a crackling sound every time I get in. I have re-enforced
the seat with some seat belt material underneath but was wondering if anyone
has a better solution.
I am going to repair the fiberglass and thought Id check to see if anyone has dealt
with this problem. I dont want to make the fiberglass repair and then just
have it crack again in the same place.
Ive read about the seats failing and jamming the controls...always in the back
of my mind.
Thanks,
Ken
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: water overflow bottle height |
Thanks for the feedback.
I understand the basics.
I was just wondering when the engine COOLs and draws the reserve water back up,
it must also first draw the air in the line back in the engine. Does this 'little
bid of air' get purged back out as the engine warms up during the next start
up/running cycle? Can this little bit of air get trapped in the engine? New
to ROTAX engines..This must happen with autos also..my truck reserve tanks is
about 6 inches below my radiator cap also..thanks all..
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220528#220528
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Snowboards for skis |
I thought this was interesting. Found them on craigslist this morning.
The wheel sits in a cradle and a strap over the top holds the skis on... would
be very easy to use this set up on the snow boards.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220529#220529
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/callair_1250s_291.jpg
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking |
Ken, There will always be varying opinion on such issues so here's mine, FW
IW: You've apparently already addressed the safety issue by installing webb
ing straps. These are, in reality, now supporting the weight of the seat pa
n and it's occupants. If you've done this job properly (as I'm sure you hav
e) so long as the webbing is intact, the seat pan will not fail.-So, my h
umble advice would be to repair the cracks in the pan and carefully inspect
pan,-webbing and its attachment points at each annual.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
-
--- On Mon, 12/22/08, sbennett3 <sbennett3@aol.com> wrote:
From: sbennett3 <sbennett3@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking
Ken, I don't have suggestions to help you fix your seat issue, just a remin
der that there are control rods running under that seat that if collapsed o
n will keep you from being able to control ailerons.- I had that happen t
o me once. Maybe a new seat can be on your Christmas list.- Personally, i
'd replace it.- Steve Bennett- classic 4 912ul... Durham NC
-
-
-
In a message dated 12/22/08 10:12:44 Eastern Standard Time, kenharrison@com
porium.net writes:
#yiv123930800 .aolmailheader {font-size:8pt;color:black;font-famil
y:Arial;}
#yiv123930800 a.aolmailheader:link {color:blue;text-decoration:underline
;font-weight:normal;}
#yiv123930800 a.aolmailheader:visited {color:magenta;text-decoration:underl
ine;font-weight:normal;}
#yiv123930800 a.aolmailheader:active {color:blue;text-decoration:underline
;font-weight:normal;}
#yiv123930800 a.aolmailheader:hover {color:blue;text-decoration:underline
;font-weight:normal;}
What is the best way to keep the fiberglass seat from cracking? -Mine has
very small cracks that are right at the outside edges both sides, basicall
y half way up the back. -It makes a crackling sound every time I get in.
-I have re-enforced the seat with some seat belt material underneath but
was wondering if anyone has a better solution. -
I am going to repair the fiberglass and thought I=92d check to see if anyon
e has dealt with this problem. -I don=92t want to make the fiberglass rep
air and then just have it crack again in the same place. -
I=92ve read about the seats failing and jamming the controls...always in th
e back of my mind.
Thanks,
Ken
-
Listen to 350+ music, sports, & news radio stations ' including songs for
the holidays ' FREE while you browse. Start Listening Now!
=0A=0A=0A
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: water overflow into expansion tank |
On Mon, December 22, 2008 8:05 am, jridgway wrote:
>
> I was just wondering when the engine COOLs and draws the reserve water back up,
it
> must also first draw the air in the line back in the engine.
As long as the tube enters the reservoir below the water line, all the air will
be
purged after a couple of warm up - cool down cycles. The expansion of the coolant
in
the engine is enough to purge the air in the vent line. Some of the air is entrained
in the hot fluid and that air comes out of solution in the overflow tank. That's
why
it can take a couple of cycles of warm up and cool down to get all of the air out.
This is important to protect the coolant from oxidation. The oxidation of ethylene
glycol produces acidic products. These effects are buffered by the corrosion inhibitor
in the anti-freeze. If there is no air interface to the hot fluid, the life expectancy
of the anti-freeze will be longer. The oxidation is temperature dependent and doesn't
happen much in the expansion tank since that fluid is quite cool compared to the
temperatures within the engine.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 12
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| Subject: | Need Fiberglass Seats |
I'm in a real fix here. I'm in the final stage of completing my Model
IV Speedster and my upholstery guy took my fiberglass seat pan and glare
shield in order to finish off my interior. I've lost total contact with
him. Either he skipped town or something very bad has happened to him.
At this point, I really don't expect to see my things again.
If anyone out in Kitfox land has an interior, seat pan or glareshield
from a parted out kitfox or just spare parts they are willing to sell,
please contact me. I haven't contacted Kitfox yet to see if they have
any of these parts that would allow me to finish my kit. I'll give them
a call sometime after the holidays if I come up empty handed from the
matronics list.
Thanks
Paul Morel
Model IV Speedster
Locust Grove, GA
Message 13
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| Subject: | Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking |
Even before any cracks developed I too reinforced the pans with carbon
fiber. Good idea,
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Harrison
Sent: 2008-12-22 07:11
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking
What is the best way to keep the fiberglass seat from cracking? Mine
has very small cracks that are right at the outside edges both sides,
basically half way up the back. It makes a crackling sound every time I
get in. I have re-enforced the seat with some seat belt material
underneath but was wondering if anyone has a better solution.
I am going to repair the fiberglass and thought I'd check to see if
anyone has dealt with this problem. I don't want to make the fiberglass
repair and then just have it crack again in the same place.
I've read about the seats failing and jamming the controls...always in
the back of my mind.
Thanks,
Ken
Message 14
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| Subject: | Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking |
To get the strength to weight you should have there the only way is to
vacuum bag the repair and carefully weigh the amount of resin you put into
the cloth. For something that needs to be strong like a seat I think I'd
even go with pre-preg cloth with the nap running 45Deg on each layer.
Finding someone with a autoclave or a hotshot will be the major problem.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Harrison
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 11:41 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking
What is the best way to keep the fiberglass seat from cracking? Mine has
very small cracks that are right at the outside edges both sides, basically
half way up the back. It makes a crackling sound every time I get in. I
have re-enforced the seat with some seat belt material underneath but was
wondering if anyone has a better solution.
I am going to repair the fiberglass and thought I'd check to see if anyone
has dealt with this problem. I don't want to make the fiberglass repair and
then just have it crack again in the same place.
I've read about the seats failing and jamming the controls...always in the
back of my mind.
Thanks,
Ken
Message 15
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| Subject: | seat pans cracking- kitfox model III |
I found it was easier and cheaper to remove the seat,- grind/roughen the
back where the fiberglass is, and re-apply several thick layers of fibergla
ss creating a broad patch in the effected area.- Then to double re-inforc
e the area I put an array of rivits at the edges where the crackes are.-
I had about 6 areas of long cracks that need repair.- Mine has held up fi
ne.- Dont make fiberglass repairs on the top side as this is the plastic
(ABS, I think) side.- The seat has been manufactured like a fiberglass tu
b.
-
I tend to take a cheaper way out, and this method seems to work. Besides I
bet the seat pan isn't cheap.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: water overflow bottle height |
The end of the tiber going to the overflow bottle should be under the level
of the coolant in the bottle. The first time the engine is started all the
gas bubbles are pushed through the tube and bubble out into the reservoir..
that way when the engine cools there is no bubbles to travel back into the
high pressure side of the cap.
This is another reason to have the reservoir below the cap... when you fill
the rad a bit of overflow will drain into the reservoir bringing it to the
proper cold level.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jridgway
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 12:36 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: water overflow bottle height
Thanks for the feedback.
I understand the basics.
I was just wondering when the engine COOLs and draws the reserve water back
up, it must also first draw the air in the line back in the engine. Does
this 'little bid of air' get purged back out as the engine warms up during
the next start up/running cycle? Can this little bit of air get trapped in
the engine? New to ROTAX engines..This must happen with autos also..my truck
reserve tanks is about 6 inches below my radiator cap also..thanks all..
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220528#220528
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Snowboards for skis |
Just be sure you don't lose one ski in flight! :-)
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 12:44 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Snowboards for skis
I thought this was interesting. Found them on craigslist this morning.
The wheel sits in a cradle and a strap over the top holds the skis on...
would be very easy to use this set up on the snow boards.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220529#220529
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/callair_1250s_291.jpg
Message 18
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| Subject: | RE: Kitfox-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 12/21/08 |
My 582-90 does not have a thermostat. Can one simply be added to the intake
or is a new intake housing needed? I am not clear on the implications of a
thermostat to prevent cold seizure. Seems that with no thermostat, a
prolonged idling descent would allow constant circulation rather than a
buildup of cool water in the radiator, thus no cold seizure risk. Am I
thinking logically? And, will an occasional engine runup while descending
prevent seizure?
Ed Gray K2-582 building do not archive Dallas
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kitfox-List
Digest Server
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 1:59 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 12/21/08
*
=================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=================================================
Today's complete Kitfox-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the Kitfox-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter
08-12-21&Archive=Kitfox
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter
2008-12-21&Archive=Kitfox
===============================================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
===============================================
----------------------------------------------------------
Kitfox-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Sun 12/21/08: 39
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:41 AM - Re: Re: CHT's (Lynn Matteson)
2. 03:45 AM - Re: skis (Lynn Matteson)
3. 04:59 AM - Snowmobile Skis (fox5flyer)
4. 05:03 AM - Snowmobile Skis (fox5flyer)
5. 05:13 AM - Snowmobile Skis (fox5flyer)
6. 05:21 AM - Snowboards for skis (fox5flyer)
7. 06:04 AM - Re: Snowmobile Skis (Lynn Matteson)
8. 06:11 AM - Re: Snowmobile Skis (Lynn Matteson)
9. 07:22 AM - Re: Re: Slipping with Flaps (Guy Buchanan)
10. 07:58 AM - Re: Snowmobile Skis (akflyer)
11. 09:02 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (patrick reilly)
12. 09:28 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (Randy Daughenbaugh)
13. 09:42 AM - Re: Snowmobile Skis (patrick reilly)
14. 09:42 AM - Re: skis (Lynn Matteson)
15. 09:48 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (Lynn Matteson)
16. 10:05 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (patrick reilly)
17. 10:23 AM - Re: skis (akflyer)
18. 10:23 AM - Re: skis (patrick reilly)
19. 10:28 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (akflyer)
20. 10:30 AM - Snowmobile Skis (fox5flyer)
21. 10:35 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (fox5flyer)
22. 11:03 AM - Snowmobile Ski Skin photos (fox5flyer)
23. 11:27 AM - Re: Slipping with FlapsRe: Slipping with Flaps (Joel
Mapes)
24. 11:27 AM - Re: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic (Noel
Loveys)
25. 12:44 PM - Re: Slipping with Flaps - C172 (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
26. 12:58 PM - Re: Snowboards for skis (Noel Loveys)
27. 01:22 PM - Re: Snowboards for skis (Lynn Matteson)
28. 01:25 PM - Re: Re: CHT's (gary.algate@sandvik.com)
29. 01:45 PM - Re: skis (Lynn Matteson)
30. 01:56 PM - Re: Re: skis (Lynn Matteson)
31. 02:03 PM - Re: Snowmobile Ski Skin photos (Lynn Matteson)
32. 03:02 PM - Re: skis (Lynn Matteson)
33. 03:14 PM - Re: Snowmobile Ski Skin photos (Ron Liebmann)
34. 03:36 PM - water overflow bottle height (jridgway)
35. 03:43 PM - Re: Re: Slipping with Flaps (Clint Bazzill)
36. 04:58 PM - Re: Snowboards for skis (Jim Crowder)
37. 07:42 PM - Re: water overflow bottle height (Weiss Richard)
38. 08:02 PM - Re: water overflow bottle height (Roger Lee)
39. 08:47 PM - Re: water overflow bottle height (James Shumaker)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 02:41:21 AM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's
In order to find where the Jabiru owner is placing his probe, you
only have to hide and watch and listen as he/she installs them....if
installing takes a few seconds and the shop is relatively quiet, they
are doing as you did, Gary, installing the probe onto the new plug
and screwing down so that the probe is against the head.
If, however, the job takes 10 minutes per plug and the air is foul
with cussing, the recalling of the plug's questionable ancestry, and
perhaps a mention of some prior incestuous fornication on the part of
the plug, then he/she is installing them the way the factory
suggests...removing the (%$#@*&?+*# ) washer, placing the probe onto
the plug, then replacing the (%$#@*&?+*# ) washer, and installing
the plug.
It's a WHOLE lot easier to drill and tap the heads once...and this is
a simple job with a hand held drill...cut the spark plug-sized
terminal off, replace with a #8 or #10 size terminal, and mount with
a socket head cap screw...DONE! You never have to touch them again.
You just have to get used to seeing a much higher reading on your CHT
readout...mine were about 75 higher, and probably a lot more
accurate than the ones sticking up in the "breeze".
I can't recall just where I saw the specifics of installing the spark
plug probes as per the factory, but they definitely tell you to take
the washer off....(%$#@*&?+*# ) them!
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 20, 2008, at 11:48 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
>
> Hi Lynn
>
> You are right with your assumption. I was talking with a couple of
> guys with Jab engines who told me the probe should be sandwiched
> between the base of the plug (Hex section) and the washer.
>
> I had always sandwiched mine between the washer and the head so
> that it was reading directly from the head itself.
>
> Anyway, as you found out a few mm can make a huge difference.
>
> I just went thru my install manual to find out the right position
> as I assume the temps Jab quote are based on a very specific
> location. I haven't found it yet.
>
> Gary
>
> Gary Algate
> SMC, Exploration
> Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
>
>
> This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
> This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
> have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
> and happy Christmas".
>
>
> Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> 21/12/2008 02:36 AM
> Please respond to
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
> To
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
> cc
> Subject
> Re: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's
>
>
> You're right, Jim...mine did read higher when I screwed them right
> down onto the head...by about 75. This is because when the
> thermocouple is sticking up into the air...(remember that the point
> where the reading is taken is right where the iron wire and the
> constantan wire come together...usually where the crimp on the spark
> plug terminal holds the wires together)...the reading is of the crimp
> of the terminal, influenced by the air passing by. If the terminal
> crimp is 3/8" from the area that sits under the spark plug, there is
> a loss of heat right there. Bend the terminal up into the air to
> allow it to clear the fins, and you've moved the "reading spot"
> further away from the head and into the airstream, which further
> cools the reading. When Gary positioned his terminal above the spark
> plug washer...if I'm reading his post correctly...he was moving the
> terminal/probe away from the head, and the washer then became an
> insulator of sorts...at least as much as a copper washer can be
> called an insulator. Granted, the terminal now contacts the spark
> plug, but think of where most of the metal in a spark plug
> resides...away from the head and in the airstream. This theory is all
> based on how I interpret Gary's explanation of where he moved the
> probes/terminals. If this isn't where he positioned his terminals/
> probes, I'll go sit in the corner with a pointy hat on my head.
>
> When this topic was first visited, and I followed the Australian
> gent's lead and attached my probes right on the heads, I also
> followed someone else's suggestion and took a CHT spark plug terminal/
> probe and installed it under my #1 cylinder to compare readings of
> the new placement and the old "between the plug and the plug washer"
> factory-suggested location, and indeed there was about a 75
> difference between the two, the "flat on the head, small electrical
> terminal" location being the hotter of the two. You might temporarily
> "borrow" a CHT probe from one of the other cylinders and then you'll
> be comparing readings taken from just the one cylinder instead of
> "identical" cylinders. Once you're satisfied, just swap it back.
>
> Can you fix him up with a hand-held radio for the time being?
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
>
>
> On Dec 20, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Jim Crowder wrote:
>
> > Gary and Lynn,
> >
> > As I remember Lynns temp actually read higher with his new
> > placement. Am I right about that? I tapped the small holes
> > between my plugs and plan to fasten my sensors there via machine
> > screws as Lynn did. I plan to leave one sensor as a standard plug
> > ring and mount if conventionally. I will look for differences and
> > even place it on an identical cylinder and then compare that way.
> >
> >
> >
> > My metal hangar is unheated and it has been soooo cooollldddd
> > here. A week ago it got to nearly 20 below zero. My fingers get
> > so cold that when I drop a washer or nut, I have great trouble
> > picking it up off of the concrete floor. Most days I still get
> > four hours or so of work in, but Im not too productive. My son
> > has now flown his RV8 four times. He has it in my hangar. He is
> > having radio problems. It is the only real problem he is having.
> > It is very noisy and cuts out on transmissions at times. He was
> > going up for a second time today and it quit transmitting
> > completely. He cut his gain settings way back from what the
> > factory had them at and that helped with the noise. We now suspect
> > he may have two problems with it. Before it always worked on the
> > ground. Now it doesnt transmit at all. It receives beautifully.
> > The problem is he doesnt want to work on the radio, he wants to
> fly.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jim Crowder
> >
> >
> >
> > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
> > list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary.algate@sandvik.com
> > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 5:13 PM
> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Lynn FYI
> >
> > yesterday I thought, for interest sake, that I'd fit my CHT probes
> > above the spark plug washer to see if I got similar results as you.
> > (Previously I just had mine sandwiched below the plug washer and
> > the head.
> >
> > My Temps dropped by about 30 deg F!
> >
> > Previously my cruise CHT's were around 280-290 and now they're
> > around 260.
> >
> > Regards and Merry Christmas
> >
> > Gary
> >
> >
> >
> > Gary Algate
> > SMC, Exploration
> > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
> >
> >
> > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> > this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
> > This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
> > have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
> > and happy Christmas".
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> >
> > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> > 20/12/2008 09:12 AM
> > Please respond to
> > kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >
> > To
> >
> > kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >
> > cc
> >
> > Subject
> >
> > Kitfox-List: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > We (in lower, Lower Michigan) got about 5-11" of new snow today,
> > (added to the 3-4" last week) but the damn stuff didn't quit until
> > flying hours...for me....were over for the day. Plus, the driveway
> > into the hangar was too deep to negotiate, and the plow guy was not
> > available. Tomorrow will/should be better for getting my ski-
> equipped
> > Kitfox out and enjoy the snow-flying. If this stuff would just come
> > 2-3" at a time, I could handle the driveway and parking (the car)
> > problems, but when it comes in "wholesale" amounts, it's just too
> > much...damn!
> > Oh well, I've got a fresh bottle of Baileys Irish Cream to help me
> > through the night, plenty of wood brought inside to feed the fire,
> > and plenty of projects (vacuum bagging and TIG-welding practicing to
> > be done for the next pair of skis) to keep me busy. And you guys
> have
> > got your Kitfox-building projects, so all is well. :)
> >
> > Lynn Matteson
> > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> > Sensenich 62x46
> > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> > system;
> > also building a new pair of snow skis
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ==========
> > --
> > Gifts!)
> > on
> > about
> > -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> > ==========
> > Forum -
> > FAQ,
> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> > ==========
> > WEB FORUMS -
> > ==========
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/
> > Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
> > =================================== _-
> > =================================== _-
> > =================================
>
>
> ==========================================================
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 03:45:35 AM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis
Here's a shot of Wipaire's Air Glide ski that I saw at Oshkosh this
year. I'm following the basic shape of these, in designing my non-
repositionable skis. The lower picture is of Trickair ski. I though
that I would pattern mine with the wider front area, and with no rear
ski area directly behind the wheel...sort of like a cross between the
two types shown....like the Wipaire in footprint, but the other in
being a fiberglass-covered tubing frame, like I have built before. If
these pics don't come out in the order that I've placed then, the
Wipaire has its name on it, the Trickair is yellow, and the other two
pics are my skis...the one shot on snow is at Oshkosh. You can see
how far my present skis ride above the snow, creating lots of drag.
The next set will be MUCH lower to the ground.
From the skis that I've seen, the measurements that I've taken, and
calculations that I've made, 1 lb/sq. inch seems about right. I'm no
engineer, and I pretty much just "eyeball it" when it comes to
designing/copying something, but then again, I don't try to sell it
either. : )
My present skis have about 480 sq. in of area, with the wheel hole
area removed from the overall size. I plan on shooting for 660 sq.
in, according to a "note to self" dated 11-30-08, so I must have some
figures somewhere in all my notes that led me to that
conclusion. : ) I measured my CFI's 1500 Federal skis, and they came
out to 764 sq. inches for the two skis (64" x 6") That comes out to
about 2 lbs/sq. in. of loading.
I've come to the conclusion that about 15" for the front width, and
6" for the part that parallels the wheel will be what I'm shooting
for. In a 60" long ski this will give me about 630 sq. in. That's my
story and I'm stickin' to it...for now.
Oh, one more thing, Paul, I'm gonna go with the UHMW for the initial
test of the framework/pedestal-mounting system, then work on the
vacuum bagging/plywood bending, fiberglass-covering part later.
On Dec 21, 2008, at 1:22 AM, Paul Franz - Merlin GT wrote:
(edited)
> Wouldn't adding length and flexibility improve flotation, reduce
> friction and greatly
> improve maneuverability?
>
> I know Lynn is building new skis and using vacuum bagging to build
> up the bases. If it
> were designed as skis for powder, I'd think you'd want a length to
> width ratio of
> about 25 with slightly wider front tips and a loading of about 1.0
> lbs/in=B2. So that
> would mean for a 1200 lb aircraft with two skis, each ski would be
> designed for 600 lb
> load and would have 600 in=B2. Given a length to width ratio of 25
> that would be mean
> each ski would be 4.9" wide and 120" long and be flexible enough so
> that the tips
> could flex up going over ruts and ridges with a loading center
> about 50" from the rear
> tip of the ski.
>
> Have skis of such dimensions been tried?
>
> Paul A. Franz
> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
> Bellevue WA
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 04:59:19 AM PST US
From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Skis
Actually, they worked fine, even in some fairly deep snow. The airplane
only weighed about 520 pounds, roughly the same as many typical
snowmobiles. The total weight of the skis was actually quite a bit
less than the tires and wheels. I'll see if I can dig up some photos.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
progress."
- Joseph Joubert
From: patrick reilly
To: kitfox matronics
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
Tom, That's not funny. Deke Morrisse in MI built his out of the
plastic skins from Artic Cat used on their snow machines. I bought a set
of skins and will have them on mine next year. They aren't real big so
you need packed snow I would imagine. How about that Deke? Those snow
machine skies you designed won't work in deep snow, or will they?
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
> From: nahsikhs@elltel.net
> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:39:50 -0800
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Lynn,
> At least you have skis so some fun to look foreword to. We have
plenty of snow in Central washing and more on the way. I wonder if I can
take the skis off my snowmobile and put them on my kitfox.
>
> Merry Christmas to all, card attached.
>
> --------
> Tom Jones
> Classic IV
> 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
> Ellensburg, WA
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220208#220208
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/snow_trees_card_202.jpg
>
>
>
>
&===================
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 05:03:31 AM PST US
From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Skis
Note, topic change. The skins were 1/4 thick by 8" wide by about 4' long
and were intended for powder skis. You can get them on ebay for less than
$30 for a set. With 10" of new snow, unless I was in dire straits to go
somewhere, I think my airplane would just stay in the hangar. I had no
problem in six to eight inches of snow, but drew the line there.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:07 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
>
> Deke and Pat-
>
> How wide and long are these "skins"? What is the area of each ski (length
> in inches, multiplied by the width in inches)? Like Leonard Perry pointed
> out the other day, you need all the area you can get in soft powder snow
> (or words to that effect).
> Maybe skis could be added to that list of useless things in aviation:
> Fuel left back at the hangar.....altitude above you....runway behind
> you.....(can't think of the others)...and wider skis left on the drawing
> table.
>
> I had a heck of a time getting out of 10" of snow today, and earlier this
> year from about 9" of snow. Granted, my skis are wheel- penetration skis,
> and I have re-thought the design, but it seems to make sense to have all
> the area you can get...I think.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
>
>
> On Dec 20, 2008, at 10:34 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
>
>> Tom, That's not funny. Deke Morrisse in MI built his out of the plastic
>> skins from Artic Cat used on their snow machines. I bought a set of
>> skins and will have them on mine next year. They aren't real big so you
>> need packed snow I would imagine. How about that Deke? Those snow
>> machine skies you designed won't work in deep snow, or will they?
>>
>> Pat Reilly
>> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
>> Rockford, IL
>>
>> > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
>> > From: nahsikhs@elltel.net
>> > Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:39:50 -0800
>> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> >
>> >
>> > Lynn,
>> > At least you have skis so some fun to look foreword to. We have
>> plenty of snow in Central washing and more on the way. I wonder if I can
>> take the skis off my snowmobile and put them on my kitfox.
>> >
>> > Merry Christmas to all, card attached.
>> >
>> > --------
>> > Tom Jones
>> > Classic IV
>> > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
>> > Ellensburg, WA
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Read this topic online here:
>> >
>> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220208#220208
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Attachments:
>> >
>> > http://forums.matronics.com//files/snow_trees_card_202.jpg
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> &===================
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ============================================================ _-
>> ============================================================ _-
>> ==========================================================
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 05:13:09 AM PST US
From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Skis
That's quite an absolute statement! No, I wouldn't have tried them in 12"
snow, but there are a lot of different types of snow between that and ice.
At one time there were people who said "If man were meant to fly, he'd have
wings".
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
----- Original Message -----
From: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:13 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
>
> There is NO WAY the skis from a sled, unless it was from an old twin track
> alpine (and that would be marginal), will hold the KF up on anything but
> very hard packed snow or ice. They wont even hold up my sled in powder.
> If you try landing in 12" of powder you are going straight to he bottom.
>
> --------
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> Leonard Perry
> Soldotna AK
> Avid "C" / Mk IV
> 582 IVO IFA
> Full Lotus 1260
> As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
>
> hander outer of humorless darwin awards
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220364#220364
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 05:21:11 AM PST US
From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
Something I've mulled over to build for my S5 are skis built on a
platform of snowboard skis. If you take a look at them, they're light,
very strong, a lot of surface area, already have the curves built into
them, and can be purchased used for a reasonable price. All they would
need is a backbone for mounting on the axle, grab handles, and the
hardware. I'm still looking around for a matching pair to tinker with.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
progress."
- Joseph Joubert
________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
Time: 06:04:13 AM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Skis
We've got about 10" right now, as of yesterday when I flew, and I'd
draw a dotted line at about that height, maybe making it a solid line
at 12" or more. I hope the new snow sticks around until I get new
skis built, or I'll have to travel much further to test them. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Dec 21, 2008, at 8:03 AM, fox5flyer wrote:
> <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
>
> Note, topic change. The skins were 1/4 thick by 8" wide by about
> 4' long and were intended for powder skis. You can get them on
> ebay for less than $30 for a set. With 10" of new snow, unless I
> was in dire straits to go somewhere, I think my airplane would just
> stay in the hangar. I had no problem in six to eight inches of
> snow, but drew the line there.
> Deke Morisse
________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 06:11:39 AM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Skis
This looks like a perfect time to throw in this that I found during
my Google search for "airplane skis" :
*********************
The National Research Council of Canada (NRC) report MM-225, Aircraft
Ski Research in Canada, discusses the comprehensive research
programme aimed at the development of improved skis for aircraft and
provides information about the use of skis. The following paragraph
paraphrases relevant portions of the publication:
Early in the tests, it was found that sliding resistance and adhesion
were far more dependent upon snow conditions than on the design of
the ski. Further, the skiing quality of the snow changed continually
and it was not unusual to observe marked changes taking place in less
than an hour. The publication notes that there are times when the
sliding resistance of aircraft skis is so great that it is impossible
to reach flying speed. It was found that the sliding resistance of a
ski could be divided into (a) the resistance component due to
compacting the snow while forming the ski track, analogous to form
drag in aerodynamics, and (b) the resistance component due to
friction. In the case of dry snow, the ski resistance is considered
to be made up of (a) solid friction, most of which occurs near the
toe of the ski, (b) viscous drag due to shearing in the very thin
film of water between the ski and the areas of contact, and (c) drag
due to surface tension forces acting at the perimeters of the water
drops in contact with the ski bottom. In very wet snow, the entire
bottom of the ski is wet and most of the resistance is due to viscous
drag, which varies as the square of the speed. All three components
of ski friction -- solid friction, viscous drag, and surface tension
drag -- increase with an increase in contact between the ski and snow
and are therefore greater for soft snow than for hard snow.
********************
Sorry I can't credit who wrote it, or where I found it, as I was just
searching and grabbing whatever seemed to be of interest to me.
Perhaps if I knew where to find the NRC report MM-225.....
I think this makes it sound like any ski is the right ski of the
conditions for it are right, or very wrong if the conditions are wrong.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 21, 2008, at 8:12 AM, fox5flyer wrote:
> <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
>
> That's quite an absolute statement! No, I wouldn't have tried them
> in 12" snow, but there are a lot of different types of snow between
> that and ice. At one time there were people who said "If man were
> meant to fly, he'd have wings".
> Deke Morisse
> Mikado Michigan
> S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
> "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
> progress."
> - Joseph Joubert
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:13 PM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
>
>
>>
>> There is NO WAY the skis from a sled, unless it was from an old
>> twin track alpine (and that would be marginal), will hold the KF
>> up on anything but very hard packed snow or ice. They wont even
>> hold up my sled in powder. If you try landing in 12" of powder you
>> are going straight to he bottom.
>>
>> --------
>> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>> Leonard Perry
________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
Time: 07:22:21 AM PST US
From: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Slipping with Flaps
At 11:26 PM 12/20/2008, you wrote:
>Seemed like a good alternative to lots of spiraling where you could
>get too slow and spin if you weren't careful. Anyone else ever do this?
Yeah, but it's really uncomfortable holding the doors open with your
feet in a Kitfox. ;-)
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade
100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar
Do Not Archive
________________________________ Message 10
____________________________________
Time: 07:58:01 AM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Snowmobile Skis
From: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
I can't go into theory on why one works and why one doesn't (if you get an
engineer
involved you just end up with a SWAG) All my knowledge is based on real
life experience, in many different planes, with many different ski
manufactures
and designs. I can say, without hesitation, that I will take a larger ski
any
day of the week over a smaller ski, for deep snow. On ice, or hard pack it
does not matter, you could get away with tiny skis, but you veer off just a
tad
and hit the powder and you are gonna have lots of time to think about
building
bigger skis as you strap on your snow shoes and spend half a day packing
down
a runway to get yourself back outa some remote area you dropped into and
were
not equipped to deal with.
A Buddy put his PA12 on its back and we had to form a rescue party to go get
him
and the plane. One PA12 was on Anderson board skis (plywood skis with
Teflon
bottoms that are quite large), one was on airglass 2000's (nice fiberglass
ski
but smaller than the Anderson's) and a 180 on little bitty federal skis.
Snow
was only about 3' deep and the board skis did AWESOME, the Airglass
performed
well but not quite as good, and the 180 was a major PITA. I spend half the
time pushing and pulling on the tail of the 180 trying to get him turned
around
at the end of the strip... then he could not build flying speed to get off
so we ran the 12 up and down to try and pack it. Didnt work because of the
large
surface area it just stayed on top and did not really compress the snow.
At the end of the day we ended packing the runway on snowshoes.
As far as snowmobile ski's or "ski skins" The same problem... on a
snowmachine,
in deep powder the skis support nothing as they are in the air. The thing
rides
on the track and belly pan when you stop. The skis are just for turning.
I have tried wide parabolic skis (lotsa $) and they still dont help too much
on a snowmachine. By your admittance that you would not take them into 12"
of
snow pretty much backs up what I said. I know these are experimental, but I
would hate for someone to go wad up a perfectly good plane just because they
thought the snowmachine skis would work...
Check out supercub.org The hot ticket for skis are a set of airglass that
you
put on new bottoms 2" wider than the ski all the way around, why? because
the
increased flotation is worth alot more than a little bit of drag. Friction
on
top of the snow is a whole lot less than having the ski buried , the prop
hitting
snow, and the gear legs dragging through the snow.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220395#220395
________________________________ Message 11
____________________________________
Time: 09:02:05 AM PST US
From: patrick reilly <patreilly43@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
Deke=2C I like the snowboard idea. I like it alot.
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL
From: fox5flyer@idealwifi.netTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Kitfox-L
ist: Snowboards for skisDate: Sun=2C 21 Dec 2008 08:20:51 -0500
Something I've mulled over to build for my S5 are skis built on a platform
of snowboard skis. If you take a look at them=2C they're light=2C very str
ong=2C a lot of surface area=2C already have the curves built into them=2C
and can be purchased used for a reasonable price. All they would need is a
backbone for mounting on the axle=2C grab handles=2C and the hardware. I'
m still looking around for a matching pair to tinker with.
Deke MorisseMikado MichiganS5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT"The aim of an argument or
discussion should not be victory=2C but progress."- Joseph Joubert
________________________________ Message 12
____________________________________
Time: 09:28:04 AM PST US
From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
Deke,
I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a few used
Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards.
I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with the entire
board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them easy to put on and I
think would still provide a lot of floatation behind the axel.
The one thing I don't like with this approach is the good boards have really
sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow boarding, but I think slightly
turned up edges may be desirable for ktifox skis.
Randy
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 6:21 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
Something I've mulled over to build for my S5 are skis built on a platform
of snowboard skis. If you take a look at them, they're light, very strong,
a lot of surface area, already have the curves built into them, and can be
purchased used for a reasonable price. All they would need is a backbone
for mounting on the axle, grab handles, and the hardware. I'm still looking
around for a matching pair to tinker with.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
________________________________ Message 13
____________________________________
Time: 09:42:19 AM PST US
From: patrick reilly <patreilly43@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Skis
Deke=2C Jeesss=2C I guess I opened up a can of worms. It is obvious that yo
ur snow machine skis won't handle deep powder by looking at them. That is w
hy I asked what your experience with them was. Anyway keep us posted on the
snowboard to ski project. I'm going to keep my eye out for a matched pair.
too.
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL
From: fox5flyer@idealwifi.netTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Kitfox-L
ist: Snowmobile SkisDate: Sun=2C 21 Dec 2008 07:58:11 -0500
Actually=2C they worked fine=2C even in some fairly deep snow. The airplan
e only weighed about 520 pounds=2C roughly the same as many typical snowmob
iles. The total weight of the skis was actually quite a bit less than the
tires and wheels. I'll see if I can dig up some photos.
Deke MorisseMikado MichiganS5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT"The aim of an argument or
discussion should not be victory=2C but progress."- Joseph Joubert
From: patrick reilly
Sent: Saturday=2C December 20=2C 2008 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
Tom=2C That's not funny. Deke Morrisse in MI built his out of the plastic s
kins from Artic Cat used on their snow machines. I bought a set of skins an
d will have them on mine next year. They aren't real big so you need packed
snow I would imagine. How about that Deke? Those snow machine skies you de
signed won't work in deep snow=2C or will they? Pat ReillyMod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off to
pic> From: nahsikhs@elltel.net> Date: Fri=2C 19 Dec 2008 15:39:50 -0800> To
s" <nahsikhs@elltel.net>> > Lynn=2C> At least you have skis so some fun to
look foreword to. We have plenty of snow in Central washing and more on the
way. I wonder if I can take the skis off my snowmobile and put them on my
kitfox.> > Merry Christmas to all=2C card attached.> > --------> Tom Jones>
Classic IV> 503 Rotax=2C 72 inch Two blade Warp> Ellensburg=2C WA> > > > >
Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?
p=220208#220208> > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//fi
les/snow_trees_card_202.jpg> > > > &============
========> > >
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chr
ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref
="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________ Message 14
____________________________________
Time: 09:42:19 AM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis
I just found some figures for ski sizes that I had measured a while
back. This first is a Cub ski, measuring 8" x 48" for 768 sq. in for
the two skis. The second is a Federal ski that measured 8" x 63" for
1008 sq. inches for the two skis. I didn't happen to notice an I.D.
plate on the Federal ski or I would have written it down. I'm
assuming that if the Federals belonging to my CFI were a 1500's, and
measured 6" x 63", then the 8" x 63" would be for a heavier plane.
I offer this info for those that are contemplating building skis for
their Kitfox. As I am doing, you could get a rough idea of how big
the skis have to be, but it would be just that...ROUGH.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
________________________________ Message 15
____________________________________
Time: 09:48:55 AM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
What you're proposing, Randy, is basically how the Wipaire skis are
designed. I have a picture of them, and it looks like the edges are
turned up slightly. I also believe that's how Leonard made the
bottoms that he attached to his skis.
I'm going to attach side "rails" onto my new ski bottoms, such that
they bend up at the edges, and act like spray rails on a boat.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 21, 2008, at 12:26 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote:
> Deke,
>
> I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a
> few used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards.
>
>
> I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with the
> entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them easy
> to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation
> behind the axel.
>
>
> The one thing I dont like with this approach is the good boards
> have really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow boarding,
> but I think slightly turned up edges may be desirable for ktifox skis.
>
>
> Randy
>
>
________________________________ Message 16
____________________________________
Time: 10:05:54 AM PST US
From: patrick reilly <patreilly43@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
Randy=2C Deke=2C And Lynn=2C How about attaching "spray rails" to the edges
of the board made out of 1/8" or so aluminum. And if you don't cut out the
board completely behind the wheel=2C attach a bent up piece behind the whe
el to eliminate the cheese cutter effect.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL> From: lynnmatt@jps.net> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboard
s for skis> Date: Sun=2C 21 Dec 2008 12:48:53 -0500> To: kitfox-list@matron
et>> > What you're proposing=2C Randy=2C is basically how the Wipaire skis
are > designed. I have a picture of them=2C and it looks like the edges are
> turned up slightly. I also believe that's how Leonard made the > bottoms
that he attached to his skis.> I'm going to attach side "rails" onto my ne
w ski bottoms=2C such that > they bend up at the edges=2C and act like spra
y rails on a boat.> > Lynn Matteson> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger> Ja
biru 2200=2C #2062=2C 596+ hrs> Sensenich 62x46> flying again after rebuild
=2C and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > system=3B> also building a ne
w pair of snow skis> > > > > On Dec 21=2C 2008=2C at 12:26 PM=2C Randy Daug
henbaugh wrote:> > > Deke=2C> >> > I have been toying with that idea for a
year or so. Even gone to a > > few used Ski sales looking for a pair of mat
ching boards.> >> >> >> > I have decided that I want to build wheel penetra
tion skis with the > > entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would ma
ke them easy > > to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatat
ion > > behind the axel.> >> >> >> > The one thing I don=92t like with this
approach is the good boards > > have really sharp edges on the sides. Bett
er for snow boarding=2C > > but I think slightly turned up edges may be des
========================> _
=========> > >
________________________________ Message 17
____________________________________
Time: 10:23:26 AM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: skis
From: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
The original Avid ski's are about 10" X 59". You can go from there.
I have never seen a set of skis for a cub that were only 48" long. My guess
would
be they are federals, off an old J3 or something. No modern skis are that
small ( atleast no one up here is flying any that small) I would say alot
depends
on the local conditions you would be flying. If your average snow depth
is 10" and its hard pack, stay small. If your landing in areas with 4' of
powder,
go big or stay home lol...
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220410#220410
________________________________ Message 18
____________________________________
Time: 10:23:26 AM PST US
From: patrick reilly <patreilly43@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: skis
Lynn=2C Are you going to have keels on the bottom similar to the yellow ski
? Also=2C I can't see from the picture=2C how do the skis attach to the axl
e? Do they screw to both ends=2C or just the inboard end of the axle? The w
hite one doesn't seem to have any mount for the outboard end of the axle.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL> From: lynnmatt@jps.net> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis> Dat
e: Sun=2C 21 Dec 2008 06:38:06 -0500> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> > Here
's a shot of Wipaire's Air Glide ski that I saw at Oshkosh this > year. I'm
following the basic shape of these=2C in designing my non- > repositionabl
e skis. The lower picture is of Trickair ski. I though > that I would patte
rn mine with the wider front area=2C and with no rear > ski area directly b
ehind the wheel...sort of like a cross between the > two types shown....lik
e the Wipaire in footprint=2C but the other in > being a fiberglass-covered
tubing frame=2C like I have built before. If > these pics don't come out i
n the order that I've placed then=2C the > Wipaire has its name on it=2C th
e Trickair is yellow=2C and the other two > pics are my skis...the one shot
on snow is at Oshkosh. You can see > how far my present skis ride above th
e snow=2C creating lots of drag. > The next set will be MUCH lower to the g
round.> > From the skis that I've seen=2C the measurements that I've taken
=2C and > calculations that I've made=2C 1 lb/sq. inch seems about right. I
'm no > engineer=2C and I pretty much just "eyeball it" when it comes to >
designing/copying something=2C but then again=2C I don't try to sell it > e
ither. : )> > My present skis have about 480 sq. in of area=2C with the whe
el hole > area removed from the overall size. I plan on shooting for 660 sq
. > in=2C according to a "note to self" dated 11-30-08=2C so I must have so
me > figures somewhere in all my notes that led me to that > conclusion. :
) I measured my CFI's 1500 Federal skis=2C and they came > out to 764 sq. i
nches for the two skis (64" x 6") That comes out to > about 2 lbs/sq. in. o
f loading.> > I've come to the conclusion that about 15" for the front widt
h=2C and > 6" for the part that parallels the wheel will be what I'm shooti
ng > for. In a 60" long ski this will give me about 630 sq. in. That's my >
story and I'm stickin' to it...for now.> > Oh=2C one more thing=2C Paul=2C
I'm gonna go with the UHMW for the initial > test of the framework/pedesta
l-mounting system=2C then work on the > vacuum bagging/plywood bending=2C f
iberglass-covering part later.> > >
________________________________ Message 19
____________________________________
Time: 10:28:04 AM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Snowboards for skis
From: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
http://www.airglas.com/
gives lots of pics of some skis that work pretty darn well.
My skis were made by a fellow that used to work at airglas. He made 5 sets
so
I am told of the size I have. It would not take much to pop a mold off and
lay
some up, or I may be able to track him down and see if he would make another
run.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220412#220412
________________________________ Message 20
____________________________________
Time: 10:30:39 AM PST US
From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Skis
I thought I said they worked fine, but maybe I imagined it? I didn't
build them for 3' of snow, nor did I build my airplane to fly 600 miles
per hour or have a 2000lb useful load. I guess what I'm trying to say
is that I built them for a model 2 with a pretty good idea of their
limitations and I used them with those limitations in mind. I never had
a problem over three winters and lots of snow time. I'm still kicking
myself for letting them go with the airplane when I sold it.
Naysaying doesn't help the experimental movement at all.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
progress."
- Joseph Joubert
Quote: "As far as snowmobile ski's or "ski skins" The same problem...
on a snowmachine, in deep powder the skis support nothing as they are in
the air. The thing rides on the track and belly pan when you stop. The
skis are just for turning. I have tried wide parabolic skis (lotsa $)
and they still dont help too much on a snowmachine. By your admittance
that you would not take them into 12" of snow pretty much backs up what
I said. I know these are experimental, but I would hate for someone to
go wad up a perfectly good plane just because they thought the
snowmachine skis would work..."
________________________________ Message 21
____________________________________
Time: 10:35:00 AM PST US
From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
I think they would work just fine, but not for 18 feet of fresh powder.
I'm not sure that there is any real importance in the turned up edges.
They're plenty strong as they are. The would just need a good backbone,
but that's easy. Just be aware of their limitations. Go for it and
keep us in the loop.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
progress."
- Joseph Joubert
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Daughenbaugh
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 12:26 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
Deke,
I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a
few used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards.
I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with the
entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them easy to put
on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation behind the axel.
The one thing I don't like with this approach is the good boards have
really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow boarding, but I think
slightly turned up edges may be desirable for ktifox skis.
Randy
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 6:21 AM
To: Kitfox List
Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
Something I've mulled over to build for my S5 are skis built on a
platform of snowboard skis. If you take a look at them, they're light,
very strong, a lot of surface area, already have the curves built into
them, and can be purchased used for a reasonable price. All they would
need is a backbone for mounting on the axle, grab handles, and the
hardware. I'm still looking around for a matching pair to tinker with.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
progress."
- Joseph Joubert
-- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- (And Get
Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click
onthis year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts!List Contribution Web
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- The Kitfox-List Email Forum --->
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WEB FORUMS - http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________ Message 22
____________________________________
Time: 11:03:42 AM PST US
From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Ski Skin photos
These are fairly low resolution taken a bunch of years ago, but will
give an idea how the skis were put together. As I recall, I had about
$90 in them.
Even if one doesn't want to go with something like these, I'm sure they
will lead to inspirations for other ideas.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
progress."
- Joseph Joubert
________________________________ Message 23
____________________________________
Time: 11:27:19 AM PST US
From: Joel Mapes <foxfloatflyer@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping with FlapsRe: Slipping with Flaps
Many years ago I had a '59 straight-tail 172 with 145hp=2C fixed pitch and
40 degree Johnson bar flaps. The warning against slips with full flaps is g
ood advice. Trust me.
8 inches of snow here in Puget Sound country=2C where nobody has skis for t
heir plane. At least my fuselage is back from the welder and for the first
time in over a year has gear underneath again.
Merry Christmas to all=2CJoel Model 5 912S
do not archive
_________________________________________________________________
Life on your PC is safer=2C easier=2C and more enjoyable with Windows Vista
=AE.
________________________________ Message 24
____________________________________
Time: 11:27:21 AM PST US
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
With skis in powder snow bigger is better. There is obviously a limit to
diminishing returns. When the skis get too heavy and they start to reduce
airspeed. Another factor is that the skis like to track straight so larger
skis will be harder to turn the plane in deep snow. Of course larger skis
also make ground looping a bit more difficult.
All a matter of compromise. If you have lots of large lakes or open fields
and thousands of powder snow then fit the biggest thing you can fly. If you
are dropping into paved run3ways and occasionally short fields where turning
around may be a problem and if you see mostly packed snow then go for
smaller penetration skis.
Just my 0.02
BTW our friend Dave Fisher has a new video on youtube. It's about fifteen
minutes long so you will want a high speed connection but it is easy to see
the depth to which a ski will sink. He's pretty good as getting the plane
to turn around but it's not nearly as fast turning as it was a couple of
years ago. I'll bet he has new longer skis.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 12:44 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
There is NO WAY the skis from a sled, unless it was from an old twin track
alpine (and that would be marginal), will hold the KF up on anything but
very hard packed snow or ice. They wont even hold up my sled in powder. If
you try landing in 12" of powder you are going straight to he bottom.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220364#220364
________________________________ Message 25
____________________________________
Time: 12:44:35 PM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Slipping with Flaps - C172
From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" <paul@eucleides.com>
On Sun, December 21, 2008 11:26 am, Joel Mapes wrote:
>
> Many years ago I had a '59 straight-tail 172 with 145hp, fixed pitch and
40 degree
> Johnson bar flaps. The warning against slips with full flaps is good
advice.
Trust me.
Would you care to elaborate?
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
________________________________ Message 26
____________________________________
Time: 12:58:17 PM PST US
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
Before you start doing anything with aluminium, especially in direct contact
with snow, consider the fact that bare aluminium will ice up like nothing
you can imagine... even under the coldest driest conditions.
The very best thing to have in contact with the snow is Teflon plastic...
My father built several komitiks (sleighs) to pull behind his snowmobile.
The best thing he found for running surfaces was Krazy Karpet. Most
hospitals have thousands of them turned in by the parents of injured
children for free. They are easy to attach using strips of Teflon plastic
and screws and they are easy to replace.... and there is no way you will
ever get them to ice up! KrazyKarpet comes in different colours so if you
want you can colour code the year you last recovered the base of your skis.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of patrick reilly
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 2:35 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
Randy, Deke, And Lynn, How about attaching "spray rails" to the edges of the
board made out of 1/8" or so aluminum. And if you don't cut out the board
completely behind the wheel, attach a bent up piece behind the wheel to
eliminate the cheese cutter effect.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
> From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:48:53 -0500
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> What you're proposing, Randy, is basically how the Wipaire skis are
> designed. I have a picture of them, and it looks like the edges are
> turned up slightly. I also believe that's how Leonard made the
> bottoms that he attached to his skis.
> I'm going to attach side "rails" onto my new ski bottoms, such that
> they bend up at the edges, and act like spray rails on a boat.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 21, 2008, at 12:26 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote:
>
> > Deke,
> >
> > I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a
> > few used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with the
> > entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them easy
> > to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation
> > behind the axel.
> >
> >
> >
> > The one thing I don't like with this approach is the good boards
> > have really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow boarding,
> > but I think slightly turned up edges may be desirable for ktifox skis.
> >
> >
> >
> > Randy
> >
> >
>
>
>
>= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
&g==================
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 27
____________________________________
Time: 01:22:13 PM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
What is the square inch area of these boards that you propose using,
Pat and Deke?
When I was taxiing the day before yesterday, I watched the snow
kicked up by the tire pile up on the tail of my ski, so I'm just not
sure whether the cheese cutter effect is doing the "damage" back
there or if it's the wheel itself. In either case, having no ski back
there keeps the snow from accumulating there. And of course if you go
without the wheel, you eliminate the problem altogether.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 21, 2008, at 1:04 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
> Randy, Deke, And Lynn, How about attaching "spray rails" to the
> edges of the board made out of 1/8" or so aluminum. And if you
> don't cut out the board completely behind the wheel, attach a bent
> up piece behind the wheel to eliminate the cheese cutter effect.
>
> Pat Reilly
> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> Rockford, IL
>
> > From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
> > Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:48:53 -0500
> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >
> >
> > What you're proposing, Randy, is basically how the Wipaire skis are
> > designed. I have a picture of them, and it looks like the edges are
> > turned up slightly. I also believe that's how Leonard made the
> > bottoms that he attached to his skis.
> > I'm going to attach side "rails" onto my new ski bottoms, such that
> > they bend up at the edges, and act like spray rails on a boat.
> >
> > Lynn Matteson
> > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> > Sensenich 62x46
> > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> > system;
> > also building a new pair of snow skis
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 21, 2008, at 12:26 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote:
> >
> > > Deke,
> > >
> > > I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a
> > > few used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with
> the
> > > entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them easy
> > > to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation
> > > behind the axel.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The one thing I dont like with this approach is the good boards
> > > have really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow boarding,
> > > but I think slightly turned up edges may be desirable for
> ktifox skis.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Randy
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> &g==================
> >
> >
> >
>
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> ==========================================================
________________________________ Message 28
____________________________________
Time: 01:25:44 PM PST US
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's
From: gary.algate@sandvik.com
Thanx Lynn,
Succinct and explanatory - that's why I love your posts!
Gary
Gary Algate
SMC, Exploration
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees.
Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If
you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by
telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender
does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of
this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy
Christmas".
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
21/12/2008 09:20 PM
Please respond to
kitfox-list@matronics.com
To
kitfox-list@matronics.com
cc
Subject
Re: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's
In order to find where the Jabiru owner is placing his probe, you
only have to hide and watch and listen as he/she installs them....if
installing takes a few seconds and the shop is relatively quiet, they
are doing as you did, Gary, installing the probe onto the new plug
and screwing down so that the probe is against the head.
If, however, the job takes 10 minutes per plug and the air is foul
with cussing, the recalling of the plug's questionable ancestry, and
perhaps a mention of some prior incestuous fornication on the part of
the plug, then he/she is installing them the way the factory
suggests...removing the (%$#@*&?+*# ) washer, placing the probe onto
the plug, then replacing the (%$#@*&?+*# ) washer, and installing
the plug.
It's a WHOLE lot easier to drill and tap the heads once...and this is
a simple job with a hand held drill...cut the spark plug-sized
terminal off, replace with a #8 or #10 size terminal, and mount with
a socket head cap screw...DONE! You never have to touch them again.
You just have to get used to seeing a much higher reading on your CHT
readout...mine were about 75=B0 higher, and probably a lot more
accurate than the ones sticking up in the "breeze".
I can't recall just where I saw the specifics of installing the spark
plug probes as per the factory, but they definitely tell you to take
the washer off....(%$#@*&?+*# ) them!
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 20, 2008, at 11:48 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
>
> Hi Lynn
>
> You are right with your assumption. I was talking with a couple of
> guys with Jab engines who told me the probe should be sandwiched
> between the base of the plug (Hex section) and the washer.
>
> I had always sandwiched mine between the washer and the head so
> that it was reading directly from the head itself.
>
> Anyway, as you found out a few mm can make a huge difference.
>
> I just went thru my install manual to find out the right position
> as I assume the temps Jab quote are based on a very specific
> location. I haven't found it yet.
>
> Gary
>
> Gary Algate
> SMC, Exploration
> Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
>
>
> This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
> ?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
> have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
> and happy Christmas".
>
>
> Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> 21/12/2008 02:36 AM
> Please respond to
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
> To
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
> cc
> Subject
> Re: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's
>
>
> You're right, Jim...mine did read higher when I screwed them right
> down onto the head...by about 75=B0. This is because when the
> thermocouple is sticking up into the air...(remember that the point
> where the reading is taken is right where the iron wire and the
> constantan wire come together...usually where the crimp on the spark
> plug terminal holds the wires together)...the reading is of the crimp
> of the terminal, influenced by the air passing by. If the terminal
> crimp is 3/8" from the area that sits under the spark plug, there is
> a loss of heat right there. Bend the terminal up into the air to
> allow it to clear the fins, and you've moved the "reading spot"
> further away from the head and into the airstream, which further
> cools the reading. When Gary positioned his terminal above the spark
> plug washer...if I'm reading his post correctly...he was moving the
> terminal/probe away from the head, and the washer then became an
> insulator of sorts...at least as much as a copper washer can be
> called an insulator. Granted, the terminal now contacts the spark
> plug, but think of where most of the metal in a spark plug
> resides...away from the head and in the airstream. This theory is all
> based on how I interpret Gary's explanation of where he moved the
> probes/terminals. If this isn't where he positioned his terminals/
> probes, I'll go sit in the corner with a pointy hat on my head.
>
> When this topic was first visited, and I followed the Australian
> gent's lead and attached my probes right on the heads, I also
> followed someone else's suggestion and took a CHT spark plug terminal/
> probe and installed it under my #1 cylinder to compare readings of
> the new placement and the old "between the plug and the plug washer"
> factory-suggested location, and indeed there was about a 75=B0
> difference between the two, the "flat on the head, small electrical
> terminal" location being the hotter of the two. You might temporarily
> "borrow" a CHT probe from one of the other cylinders and then you'll
> be comparing readings taken from just the one cylinder instead of
> "identical" cylinders. Once you're satisfied, just swap it back.
>
> Can you fix him up with a hand-held radio for the time being?
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
>
>
> On Dec 20, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Jim Crowder wrote:
>
> > Gary and Lynn,
> >
> > As I remember Lynn?s temp actually read higher with his new
> > placement. Am I right about that? I tapped the small holes
> > between my plugs and plan to fasten my sensors there via machine
> > screws as Lynn did. I plan to leave one sensor as a standard plug
> > ring and mount if conventionally. I will look for differences and
> > even place it on an identical cylinder and then compare that way.
> >
> >
> >
> > My metal hangar is unheated and it has been soooo cooollldddd
> > here. A week ago it got to nearly 20 below zero. My fingers get
> > so cold that when I drop a washer or nut, I have great trouble
> > picking it up off of the concrete floor. Most days I still get
> > four hours or so of work in, but I?m not too productive. My son
> > has now flown his RV8 four times. He has it in my hangar. He is
> > having radio problems. It is the only real problem he is having.
> > It is very noisy and cuts out on transmissions at times. He was
> > going up for a second time today and it quit transmitting
> > completely. He cut his gain settings way back from what the
> > factory had them at and that helped with the noise. We now suspect
> > he may have two problems with it. Before it always worked on the
> > ground. Now it doesn?t transmit at all. It receives beautifully.
> > The problem is he doesn?t want to work on the radio, he wants to
> fly.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jim Crowder
> >
> >
> >
> > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
> > list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary.algate@sandvik.com
> > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 5:13 PM
> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Lynn FYI
> >
> > yesterday I thought, for interest sake, that I'd fit my CHT probes
> > above the spark plug washer to see if I got similar results as you.
> > (Previously I just had mine sandwiched below the plug washer and
> > the head.
> >
> > My Temps dropped by about 30 deg F!
> >
> > Previously my cruise CHT's were around 280-290 and now they're
> > around 260.
> >
> > Regards and Merry Christmas
> >
> > Gary
> >
> >
> >
> > Gary Algate
> > SMC, Exploration
> > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
> >
> >
> > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> > this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
> > ?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
> > have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
> > and happy Christmas".
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> >
> > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> > 20/12/2008 09:12 AM
> > Please respond to
> > kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >
> > To
> >
> > kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >
> > cc
> >
> > Subject
> >
> > Kitfox-List: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > We (in lower, Lower Michigan) got about 5-11" of new snow today,
> > (added to the 3-4" last week) but the damn stuff didn't quit until
> > flying hours...for me....were over for the day. Plus, the driveway
> > into the hangar was too deep to negotiate, and the plow guy was not
> > available. Tomorrow will/should be better for getting my ski-
> equipped
> > Kitfox out and enjoy the snow-flying. If this stuff would just come
> > 2-3" at a time, I could handle the driveway and parking (the car)
> > problems, but when it comes in "wholesale" amounts, it's just too
> > much...damn!
> > Oh well, I've got a fresh bottle of Baileys Irish Cream to help me
> > through the night, plenty of wood brought inside to feed the fire,
> > and plenty of projects (vacuum bagging and TIG-welding practicing to
> > be done for the next pair of skis) to keep me busy. And you guys
> have
> > got your Kitfox-building projects, so all is well. :)
> >
> > Lynn Matteson
> > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> > Sensenich 62x46
> > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> > system;
> > also building a new pair of snow skis
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ==========
> > --
> > Gifts!)
> > on
> > about
> > -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> > ==========
> > Forum -
> > FAQ,
> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> > ==========
> > WEB FORUMS -
> > ==========
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/
> > Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
> > ======================
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________________________________ Message 29
____________________________________
Time: 01:45:31 PM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis
Those "keels", although they act like keels are actually wear bars,
that take the brunt of the wear that would otherwise occur if the
tire should get low, or if you land hard on pavement. Yes, I'm going
to have them on mine. Before I make the plywood and fiberglass
bottoms, I'm going to use UHMW over the whole bottom, and then attach
the wear bars to them. I haven't thought it completely through yet,
but I might sandwich my "spray rails" between the bottom and the wear
bars.
I'll post a picture or two of my pedestal mount, as far along as it
is, in a little while.
The yellow skis (Trickair) attach to a stub axle that is bolted to
the inboard side of the Grove landing gear. The white one...the
Wipaire...attaches to the landing gear by (I think) either bolted on,
or welded on, brackets. Go to http://www.trickair.com/ to see
their site and maybe watch the video of their skis in action. I
haven't watched it, because my computer modem is too slow. Also, look
again at the picture of the yellow ski. Just to the left of the ski,
is the tubing framework that the ski is built around. It is black and
hard to pick out because it blends in with the display rack, which is
also black.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 21, 2008, at 1:22 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
> Lynn, Are you going to have keels on the bottom similar to the
> yellow ski? Also, I can't see from the picture, how do the skis
> attach to the axle? Do they screw to both ends, or just the inboard
> end of the axle? The white one doesn't seem to have any mount for
> the outboard end of the axle.
>
> Pat Reilly
> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> Rockford, IL
>
________________________________ Message 30
____________________________________
Time: 01:56:20 PM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: skis
The 48" skis were on a Cub, but whether they were original or not, I
didn't ask. They are about 3/4" plywood for the bottom, which has
very little curve-up, another 3/4" shorter board for stiffening, and
used a stamped sheet metal tapered tubular pedestal that slipped over
the axle, in place of the wheel. When I flew over to where this Cub
was visiting, he had been on the ground for some time, and when he
tried to leave, we had to rock his wings to break him loose, as he
had been frozen down. I always stand on the tips of my skis before I
get into the plane. Of course, his are plywood, and mine are UHMW, so
his will stick before mine, especially if he hasn't waxed
them....I've never waxed mine, and maybe I should....might help.
If we EVER get 4' of anything down here, I'm in front of the
fire...screw the flying!
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 21, 2008, at 1:23 PM, akflyer wrote:
>
> The original Avid ski's are about 10" X 59". You can go from there.
>
> I have never seen a set of skis for a cub that were only 48" long.
> My guess would be they are federals, off an old J3 or something.
> No modern skis are that small ( atleast no one up here is flying
> any that small) I would say alot depends on the local conditions
> you would be flying. If your average snow depth is 10" and its
> hard pack, stay small. If your landing in areas with 4' of powder,
> go big or stay home lol...
>
> --------
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> Leonard Perry
> Soldotna AK
> Avid "C" / Mk IV
> 582 IVO IFA
> Full Lotus 1260
> As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis
> takes over.
>
> hander outer of humorless darwin awards
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220410#220410
>
>
________________________________ Message 31
____________________________________
Time: 02:03:24 PM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Ski Skin photos
But, Deke, where are the wheels? : )
You sent me these pics a couple of years ago, and indeed they
inspired me to build....a bit different, but build just the same.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Dec 21, 2008, at 2:02 PM, fox5flyer wrote:
>
> These are fairly low resolution taken a bunch of years ago, but
> will give an idea how the skis were put together. As I recall, I
> had about $90 in them.
> Even if one doesn't want to go with something like these, I'm sure
> they will lead to inspirations for other ideas.
> Deke Morisse
> Mikado Michigan
> S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
> "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
> progress."
> - Joseph Joubert
>
________________________________ Message 32
____________________________________
Time: 03:02:17 PM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis
Pat-
Here are the pictures of the pedestal parts that I've built so far,
and a mockup of the proposed ski using 3/4" wood where 4130 round
tubing and flat plate will be. As you can see, the 4 holes in the
"stub axle" will bolt up to the back side of the Grove gear. If I
choose to leave this stub axle in place all year long...with suitable
fairing made of fiberglass....installation will be simply sliding the
ski onto the axle and securing the nut and cotter pin, and attaching
all the safety cables, etc., ...and praying for snow.
On Dec 21, 2008, at 1:22 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
> Lynn, Are you going to have keels on the bottom similar to the
> yellow ski? Also, I can't see from the picture, how do the skis
> attach to the axle? Do they screw to both ends, or just the inboard
> end of the axle? The white one doesn't seem to have any mount for
> the outboard end of the axle.
>
> Pat Reilly
> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> Rockford, IL
>
________________________________ Message 33
____________________________________
Time: 03:14:44 PM PST US
From: "Ron Liebmann" <rliebmann@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Ski Skin photos
Hey there Deke,
You are one great designer/fabricator for sure. Your ski's look super!
Ron Schaumburg 55KF
----- Original Message -----
From: fox5flyer
To: Kitfox List
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 1:02 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Ski Skin photos
These are fairly low resolution taken a bunch of years ago, but will
give an idea how the skis were put together. As I recall, I had about
$90 in them.
Even if one doesn't want to go with something like these, I'm sure
they will lead to inspirations for other ideas.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
progress."
- Joseph Joubert
________________________________ Message 34
____________________________________
Time: 03:36:09 PM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: water overflow bottle height
From: "jridgway" <jridgway@academicplanet.com>
I understand from the ROTAX documentation that the water overflow bottle can
be
up to 10 inches below the radiator cap. Won't this allow the air (volume=10
inches
x inner hose diameter) in the overflow line enter the engine before it
actually
brings up any water? Is this small amount of air OK? Does this air get
purged out with water during the cooling recovery cycle? I am not using a
separate
expansion tank.
Thanks..Jack
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220456#220456
________________________________ Message 35
____________________________________
Time: 03:43:38 PM PST US
From: Clint Bazzill <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Slipping with Flaps
HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU SPIN OUT OF A SLIP?
CLINT
> Date: Sun=2C 21 Dec 2008 06:59:51 -0800> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> F
rom: bnn@nethere.com> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Slipping with Flaps> >
26 PM 12/20/2008=2C you wrote:> >Seemed like a good alternative to lots of
spiraling where you could > >get too slow and spin if you weren't careful.
Anyone else ever do this?> > Yeah=2C but it's really uncomfortable holding
the doors open with your > feet in a Kitfox. =3B-)> > > Guy Buchanan> San D
iego=2C CA> K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade> 100% and flying thanks m
====> > >
________________________________ Message 36
____________________________________
Time: 04:58:51 PM PST US
From: "Jim Crowder" <jcrowder@lpbroadband.net>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
This sounds like what I purchased a few years ago to put under heavy objects
so as to allow one person to take hold of a lead rope and easily move very
heavy object around on carpet. I believe they came from a carpet layer's
supply house. They were unbelievable for that.
Jim Crowder
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 1:57 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
Before you start doing anything with aluminium, especially in direct contact
with snow, consider the fact that bare aluminium will ice up like nothing
you can imagine... even under the coldest driest conditions.
The very best thing to have in contact with the snow is Teflon plastic...
My father built several komitiks (sleighs) to pull behind his snowmobile.
The best thing he found for running surfaces was Krazy Karpet. Most
hospitals have thousands of them turned in by the parents of injured
children for free. They are easy to attach using strips of Teflon plastic
and screws and they are easy to replace.... and there is no way you will
ever get them to ice up! KrazyKarpet comes in different colours so if you
want you can colour code the year you last recovered the base of your skis.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of patrick reilly
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 2:35 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
Randy, Deke, And Lynn, How about attaching "spray rails" to the edges of the
board made out of 1/8" or so aluminum. And if you don't cut out the board
completely behind the wheel, attach a bent up piece behind the wheel to
eliminate the cheese cutter effect.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
> From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:48:53 -0500
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> What you're proposing, Randy, is basically how the Wipaire skis are
> designed. I have a picture of them, and it looks like the edges are
> turned up slightly. I also believe that's how Leonard made the
> bottoms that he attached to his skis.
> I'm going to attach side "rails" onto my new ski bottoms, such that
> they bend up at the edges, and act like spray rails on a boat.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 21, 2008, at 12:26 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote:
>
> > Deke,
> >
> > I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a
> > few used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with the
> > entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them easy
> > to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation
> > behind the axel.
> >
> >
> >
> > The one thing I don't like with this approach is the good boards
> > have really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow boarding,
> > but I think slightly turned up edges may be desirable for ktifox skis.
> >
> >
> >
> > Randy
> >
> >
>
>
>
>= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
&g==================
>
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________ Message 37
____________________________________
Time: 07:42:15 PM PST US
From: Weiss Richard <MDKitfox@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: water overflow bottle height
Jack,
Which engine are you using? Each model may be different.
On my 912ULS, the 10 inch measurement you cite is accurate, but the
formula you wrote is not for volume. The volume would be volume = r2
h. Where r is the radius of the hose and h is the length (height) of
the hose. This may be air or fluid depending on your installation and
how you fill the reservoir and overflow container. If the hose has
air, it will eventually be released out the hole in the cap of the
overflow bottle. I don't think there's a problem with that small
amount of air anyway, since it can't back flow into the reservoir due
to the pressure valve in the cap. When the engine heats up, the air
in the hose will expand and some of it will bubble out the breather
hole in the cap and be replaced with the fluid in the overflow
container. If the pressure gets to great in the system, the cap valve
releases and allows coolant to flow into the overflow container. Thus
the air is purged out anyway. Just be sure you have sufficient
coolant in the overflow container so air is not sucked into the system
when it cools down.
Hope this helps.
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
On Dec 21, 2008, at 6:34 PM, jridgway wrote:
> >
>
> I understand from the ROTAX documentation that the water overflow
> bottle can be up to 10 inches below the radiator cap. Won't this
> allow the air (volume=10 inches x inner hose diameter) in the
> overflow line enter the engine before it actually brings up any
> water? Is this small amount of air OK? Does this air get purged out
> with water during the cooling recovery cycle? I am not using a
> separate expansion tank.
> Thanks..Jack
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220456#220456
>
>
________________________________ Message 38
____________________________________
Time: 08:02:57 PM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: water overflow bottle height
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
The hose comes off the bottom of the tank so it will only draw liquid. You
should
not have an air issue.
An example would be when you take the cap off the coolant expansion tank air
can
get in and the fluid level is not always at the top. It has an air space at
times if the level is down slightly.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Service Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220482#220482
________________________________ Message 39
____________________________________
Time: 08:47:05 PM PST US
From: James Shumaker <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: water overflow bottle height
Jack=0A=0AYour overflow bottle is a "seperate expansion tank."=0A=0AJim Shu
maker=0A=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A
From: jridgway <jridgway@academicplanet.com>=0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.co
m=0ASent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 3:34:57 PM=0ASubject: Kitfox-List: wate
<jridgway@academicplanet.com>=0A=0AI understand from the ROTAX documentati
on that the water overflow bottle can be up to 10 inches below the radiator
cap. Won't this allow the air (volume=10 inches x inner hose diameter) i
n the overflow line enter the engine before it actually brings up any water
? Is this small amount of air OK? Does this air get purged out with water d
uring the cooling recovery cycle? I am not using a separate expansion tank.
=0AThanks..Jack=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://foru
======================
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Slipping with Flaps |
At 03:42 PM 12/21/2008, you wrote:
>HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU SPIN OUT OF A SLIP?
Easy. Just slow down. If cross controlled you'll initiate a spin every time.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade
100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar
Message 20
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| Subject: | Snowboards for skis |
Lynn=2C I haven't got snowboards yet. Just saw the posting of the idea. But
you can bet=2C thanks to your posting Lynn=2C they will be bigger than 1 s
q" per pound of air plane.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2CIL> From: lynnmatt@jps.net> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards
for skis> Date: Sun=2C 21 Dec 2008 16:19:40 -0500> To: kitfox-list@matroni
t>> > What is the square inch area of these boards that you propose using
=2C > Pat and Deke?> > When I was taxiing the day before yesterday=2C I wat
ched the snow > kicked up by the tire pile up on the tail of my ski=2C so I
'm just not > sure whether the cheese cutter effect is doing the "damage" b
ack > there or if it's the wheel itself. In either case=2C having no ski ba
ck > there keeps the snow from accumulating there. And of course if you go
> without the wheel=2C you eliminate the problem altogether.> > Lynn Mattes
on> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger> Jabiru 2200=2C #2062=2C 596+ hrs> S
ensenich 62x46> flying again after rebuild=2C and new Electroair direct-fir
e ignition > system=3B> also building a new pair of snow skis> > > > > On D
ec 21=2C 2008=2C at 1:04 PM=2C patrick reilly wrote:> > > Randy=2C Deke=2C
And Lynn=2C How about attaching "spray rails" to the > > edges of the board
made out of 1/8" or so aluminum. And if you > > don't cut out the board co
mpletely behind the wheel=2C attach a bent > > up piece behind the wheel to
eliminate the cheese cutter effect.> >> > Pat Reilly> > Mod 3 582 Rebuild>
> Rockford=2C IL> >> > > From: lynnmatt@jps.net> > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-L
ist: Snowboards for skis> > > Date: Sun=2C 21 Dec 2008 12:48:53 -0500> > >
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>> > >> > > What you're proposing=2C Randy
=2C is basically how the Wipaire skis are> > > designed. I have a picture o
f them=2C and it looks like the edges are> > > turned up slightly. I also b
elieve that's how Leonard made the> > > bottoms that he attached to his ski
s.> > > I'm going to attach side "rails" onto my new ski bottoms=2C such th
at> > > they bend up at the edges=2C and act like spray rails on a boat.> >
>> > > Lynn Matteson> > > Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger> > > Jabiru 2
200=2C #2062=2C 596+ hrs> > > Sensenich 62x46> > > flying again after rebui
ld=2C and new Electroair direct-fire ignition> > > system=3B> > > also buil
ding a new pair of snow skis> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > On Dec 21=2C 2008=2C
at 12:26 PM=2C Randy Daughenbaugh wrote:> > >> > > > Deke=2C> > > >> > > >
I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a> > > > f
ew used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards.> > > >> > > >> > >
>> > > > I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with >
> the> > > > entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them e
asy> > > > to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation> >
> > behind the axel.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > The one thing I don=92t l
ike with this approach is the good boards> > > > have really sharp edges on
the sides. Better for snow boarding=2C> > > > but I think slightly turned
up edges may be desirable for > > ktifox skis.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >
Randy> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >= Archive Search & Download=2C 7-D
ay Browse=2C Chat=2C FAQ=2C> > &g==============
======> > >> > >> > >> >> > ===========
> > =======================
============ _- > > ==========
=================> > >
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking |
Here's another idea....install under-seat tool boxes. John & Debra
McBean sell them I'm sure. Either there or Murle Williams. I got two
of 'em and installed them and I seem to recall that they will contact
a diagonal member of the fuse before anything hits the control rods.
Talk about killing two birds....now you've got places to put more crap!
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 22, 2008, at 11:20 AM, Marco Menezes wrote:
> Ken, There will always be varying opinion on such issues so here's
> mine, FWIW: You've apparently already addressed the safety issue by
> installing webbing straps. These are, in reality, now supporting
> the weight of the seat pan and it's occupants. If you've done this
> job properly (as I'm sure you have) so long as the webbing is
> intact, the seat pan will not fail. So, my humble advice would be
> to repair the cracks in the pan and carefully inspect pan, webbing
> and its attachment points at each annual.
>
> Marco Menezes N99KX
> Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
>
>
> --- On Mon, 12/22/08, sbennett3 <sbennett3@aol.com> wrote:
> From: sbennett3 <sbennett3@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Date: Monday, December 22, 2008, 10:32 AM
>
> Ken, I don't have suggestions to help you fix your seat issue, just
> a reminder that there are control rods running under that seat that
> if collapsed on will keep you from being able to control ailerons.
> I had that happen to me once. Maybe a new seat can be on your
> Christmas list. Personally, i'd replace it. Steve Bennett
> classic 4 912ul... Durham NC
>
>
> In a message dated 12/22/08 10:12:44 Eastern Standard Time,
> kenharrison@comporium.net writes:
> What is the best way to keep the fiberglass seat from cracking?
> Mine has very small cracks that are right at the outside edges both
> sides, basically half way up the back. It makes a crackling sound
> every time I get in. I have re-enforced the seat with some seat
> belt material underneath but was wondering if anyone has a better
> solution.
>
> I am going to repair the fiberglass and thought Id check to see if
> anyone has dealt with this problem. I dont want to make the
> fiberglass repair and then just have it crack again in the same place.
>
> Ive read about the seats failing and jamming the controls...always
> in the back of my mind.
>
> Thanks,
> Ken
>
>
> Listen to 350+ music, sports, & news radio stations including
> songs for the holidays FREE while you browse. Start Listening Now!
> blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/
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Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Need Fiberglass Seats |
At 08:37 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote:
>If anyone out in Kitfox land has an interior, seat pan or
>glareshield from a parted out kitfox or just spare parts they are
>willing to sell, please contact me. I haven't contacted Kitfox yet
>to see if they have any of these parts that would allow me to finish my kit.
Paul,
I think I have a fiberglass seat pan for you. I'll be able
to check after the new year. Please send me a reminder off-list,
(brain damage, you know,) the first week in January. Hopefully you'll
find one closer before then.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade
100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: seat pans cracking- kitfox model III |
At 08:54 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote:
>Dont make fiberglass repairs on the top side as this is the plastic
>(ABS, I think) side. The seat has been manufactured like a fiberglass tub.
Actually this surface is in all likelihood polyester gel-coat. As
such it adheres fine. However it is not structural and should be
ground off before applying any structural material.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade
100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Kitfox-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 12/21/08 |
At 09:50 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote:
>My 582-90 does not have a thermostat. Can one simply be added to the intake
>or is a new intake housing needed?
I'm guessing you still have the thermostat housing attached to the
head, or else someone went to a lot of unnecessary work fabricating a
replacement. As such you should be able to simply install one.
>I am not clear on the implications of a
>thermostat to prevent cold seizure. Seems that with no thermostat, a
>prolonged idling descent would allow constant circulation rather than a
>buildup of cool water in the radiator, thus no cold seizure risk. Am I
>thinking logically?
You've got it right. I've heard a lot of people don't use them. I
don't know what the implications are, however, of trying to run the
engine at full power with the whole thing really cold. (I.e. less
than the 140F the thermostat opens at.) Presumably Rotax included a
thermostat for a reason.
>And, will an occasional engine runup while descending
>prevent seizure?
Yes and no. What you have to do to prevent cold seizure is either: 1)
keep the radiator water circulating, therefore keep the water temp
above 140, at least occasionally, or 2) return to power very
gradually, the same way you would warm the engine on the ground. I
either do very gradual high power descents keeping everything warm or
steep low power descents followed by a gradual increase in RPM
watching the water temp and keeping the RPM below, say 4000. The
latter is very difficult to do when it's really cold. I have had to
slow to near stall to get the engine to warm gradually. Hopefully
Noel or Dave or one of the other northern fliers will reply. They
must do this all the time.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade
100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Snowboards for skis |
I'm heading for the "plastic store" to get my ski bottoms, and I just
ordered all the tubing and hardware needed for my new skis. I'll be
Santa's little helper in a few days. : )
Yup, as all my ex-wives used to say..."bigger is better"....guess
that's why they sought greener pastures....
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Dec 22, 2008, at 1:17 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
> Lynn, I haven't got snowboards yet. Just saw the posting of the
> idea. But you can bet, thanks to your posting Lynn, they will be
> bigger than 1 sq" per pound of air plane.
>
> Pat Reilly
> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> Rockford,IL
>
> > From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
> > Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:19:40 -0500
> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >
> >
> > What is the square inch area of these boards that you propose using,
> > Pat and Deke?
> >
> > When I was taxiing the day before yesterday, I watched the snow
> > kicked up by the tire pile up on the tail of my ski, so I'm just not
> > sure whether the cheese cutter effect is doing the "damage" back
> > there or if it's the wheel itself. In either case, having no ski
> back
> > there keeps the snow from accumulating there. And of course if
> you go
> > without the wheel, you eliminate the problem altogether.
> >
> > Lynn Matteson
> > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> > Sensenich 62x46
> > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> > system;
> > also building a new pair of snow skis
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 21, 2008, at 1:04 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
> >
> > > Randy, Deke, And Lynn, How about attaching "spray rails" to the
> > > edges of the board made out of 1/8" or so aluminum. And if you
> > > don't cut out the board completely behind the wheel, attach a bent
> > > up piece behind the wheel to eliminate the cheese cutter effect.
> > >
> > > Pat Reilly
> > > Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> > > Rockford, IL
> > >
> > > > From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> > > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis
> > > > Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:48:53 -0500
> > > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > > >
> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> > > >
> > > > What you're proposing, Randy, is basically how the Wipaire
> skis are
> > > > designed. I have a picture of them, and it looks like the
> edges are
> > > > turned up slightly. I also believe that's how Leonard made the
> > > > bottoms that he attached to his skis.
> > > > I'm going to attach side "rails" onto my new ski bottoms,
> such that
> > > > they bend up at the edges, and act like spray rails on a boat.
> > > >
> > > > Lynn Matteson
> > > > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > > > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> > > > Sensenich 62x46
> > > > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
> ignition
> > > > system;
> > > > also building a new pair of snow skis
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 21, 2008, at 12:26 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Deke,
> > > > >
> > > > > I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even
> gone to a
> > > > > few used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis
> with
> > > the
> > > > > entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them
> easy
> > > > > to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation
> > > > > behind the axel.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The one thing I dont like with this approach is the good
> boards
> > > > > have really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow
> boarding,
> > > > > but I think slightly turned up edges may be desirable for
> > > ktifox skis.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Randy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> > > &g===================
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ==========
> > > =================================== _-
> > > =========
> >
> >
> >
> Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> >==================
> >
> >
> >
>
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Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking |
Ken,
My suggestion would be to scuff sand the cracked edge top and bottom and lay
a couple of layers of fiberglass tape (top and bottom) over the surface near
the edge. The top (white) layer is gelcoat and make sure the scuff sanding
removes the gelcoat in the affected areas. the edge would then be similar to
a foam sandwich where the original glass and cracks would be like the foam
and really non structural and the layers of glass top and bottom would be
the structural part. Also my opinion is that your repair would be for the
most part to eliminate the noise and give some confidence that the seat will
not crack straight across. Fiber glass structures are not like plexiglass
where a crack will always continue to propagate. Consider also that seat
lockers were common options for small tools etc. These required cutting
large holes in the seat bottoms which would seriously weaken the structure.
Regarding the seat pan failures in the past. I don't think there has ever
been a pan failure in a Model I through IV. The failures came after Skystar
added the trim panel in front of the seat and needed to change the leading
edge of the seat from the tube grabbing "C" lip to the gentler curved and
shorter 45 lip to accommodate the trim panel. This is a classic example of
how a seemingly non structural design change to add a bit of eye appeal (and
weight) resulted in a serious safety issue. The failures were not
structural failures of the pan, but would come on a hard landing or severe
turbulence when the seat would spring down under the pilot's weight and the
forward lip would slip off the bulkhead tube. I am not aware of a seat
failure from structural collapse. Also regarding the old style, I know a
guy that has put over a thousand hours on two Model IVs and has never tied
the seat pan to the airframe with the nylon tiewraps. I have seen him in
"turn back" turbulance and tons of off airport landings with no incidences.
Lowell Fitt
Cameron Park, CA
Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
Currently focusing on the Left Wing - almost ready to cover, fuselage as
well.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Harrison" <kenharrison@comporium.net>
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 7:11 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking
What is the best way to keep the fiberglass seat from cracking? Mine has
very small cracks that are right at the outside edges both sides, basically
half way up the back. It makes a crackling sound every time I get in. I
have re-enforced the seat with some seat belt material underneath but was
wondering if anyone has a better solution.
I am going to repair the fiberglass and thought Id check to see if anyone
has dealt with this problem. I dont want to make the fiberglass repair and
then just have it crack again in the same place.
Ive read about the seats failing and jamming the controls...always in the
back of my mind.
Thanks,
Ken
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Slipping with Flaps |
Nope. Ain't so. I argued with Clint about this a while back. And Lost!
There are two different uncoordinated conditions. In one case the nose of
the craft is blocking air to the low wing. This will introduce you to a
spin very quickly as soon as you get slow.....
The other case is a purposeful slip. In this case the nose of the craft is
blocking the HIGH wing. If you lose lift on the high wing due to getting
too slow, you will level the wing....
Clint can explain it better than I can, but that is the essence of the
explanation.
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 11:09 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Slipping with Flaps
At 03:42 PM 12/21/2008, you wrote:
>HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU SPIN OUT OF A SLIP?
Easy. Just slow down. If cross controlled you'll initiate a spin every time.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade
100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Slipping with Flaps - C172 |
On Sun=2C December 21=2C 2008 11:26 am=2C Joel Mapes wrote: > > M
any years ago I had a '59 straight-tail 172 with 145hp=2C fixed pitch and 4
0 degree > Johnson bar flaps. The warning against slips with full flap
s is good advice. Trust me. Would you care to elaborate?
-- Paul A. Franz Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin G
T Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP Bellevue WA 425.241.1618 C
ell
Forward slips with full flaps in the middle of the white arc at altitude pr
oduced noticible pitch control buffet=2C enough so that I never tried it ne
ar the ground. With as much drag as those big barn door flaps at 40 degrees
produced=2C slips really were not necessary. Yank up on the handle=2C hold
up the nose until the airspeed got near the bottom of the white arc and th
en just let her come down. The sink rate was truly impressive.Joel Model 5
912 GTA CS prop Aerocomp amphibs
_________________________________________________________________
It=92s the same Hotmail=AE. If by =93same=94 you mean up to 70% faster.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad
1_122008
Message 29
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| Subject: | Need Fiberglass Seats |
Paul,
Give us a call when you're ready. We can help.
On another note. Hope everyone has a Safe and Very Merry Christmas !! and
New Year !!
Fly Safe !!
John McBean
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Morel
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 9:37 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Need Fiberglass Seats
I'm in a real fix here. I'm in the final stage of completing my Model IV
Speedster and my upholstery guy took my fiberglass seat pan and glare shield
in order to finish off my interior. I've lost total contact with him.
Either he skipped town or something very bad has happened to him. At this
point, I really don't expect to see my things again.
If anyone out in Kitfox land has an interior, seat pan or glareshield from a
parted out kitfox or just spare parts they are willing to sell, please
contact me. I haven't contacted Kitfox yet to see if they have any of these
parts that would allow me to finish my kit. I'll give them a call sometime
after the holidays if I come up empty handed from the matronics list.
Thanks
Paul Morel
Model IV Speedster
Locust Grove, GA
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Need Fiberglass Seats |
Guy
I'll get with you after the new year. Send me your email so I can
contact you off-list.
Thanks
Paul
pmorel@bellsouth.net
----- Original Message -----
From: Guy Buchanan
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Need Fiberglass Seats
At 08:37 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote:
If anyone out in Kitfox land has an interior, seat pan or
glareshield from a parted out kitfox or just spare parts they are
willing to sell, please contact me. I haven't contacted Kitfox yet to
see if they have any of these parts that would allow me to finish my
kit.
Paul,
I think I have a fiberglass seat pan for you. I'll be able to
check after the new year. Please send me a reminder off-list, (brain
damage, you know,) the first week in January. Hopefully you'll find one
closer before then.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade
100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar
Message 31
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|
Lynn, STOP PRAYING! We've got enough snow.
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis
> Pat-
> Here are the pictures of the pedestal parts that I've built so far,
> and a mockup of the proposed ski using 3/4" wood where 4130 round
> tubing and flat plate will be. As you can see, the 4 holes in the
> "stub axle" will bolt up to the back side of the Grove gear. If I
> choose to leave this stub axle in place all year long...with suitable
> fairing made of fiberglass....installation will be simply sliding the
> ski onto the axle and securing the nut and cotter pin, and attaching
> all the safety cables, etc., ...and praying for snow.
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Dec 21, 2008, at 1:22 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
>
>> Lynn, Are you going to have keels on the bottom similar to the
>> yellow ski? Also, I can't see from the picture, how do the skis
>> attach to the axle? Do they screw to both ends, or just the inboard
>> end of the axle? The white one doesn't seem to have any mount for
>> the outboard end of the axle.
>>
>> Pat Reilly
>> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
>> Rockford, IL
>>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking |
Lynn sez:
>Here's another idea....install under-seat tool boxes.
>John & Debra McBean sell them I'm sure. Either
>there or Murle Williams.
I can't say how they affect the structural integrity of the seat pan
but during my accident both under-seat compartments in my 'fox were
completely flattened. We believe they helped cushion the impact by
crumpling, though, and I had no back injuries.
I got my toolboxes from Murle Williams <http://
MurleWilliamsAviation.com>
Mike G.
Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking |
They might just provide a "crush zone" in that regard. I think I got
mine from Williams, too. As I recall, John either didn't have them
when I ordered mine, or I didn't check....and this was before he
became www.kitfoxaircraft.com anyway.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 22, 2008, at 3:23 PM, Michael Gibbs wrote:
> <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
>
> Lynn sez:
>
> >Here's another idea....install under-seat tool boxes.
> >John & Debra McBean sell them I'm sure. Either
> >there or Murle Williams.
>
> I can't say how they affect the structural integrity of the seat
> pan but during my accident both under-seat compartments in my 'fox
> were completely flattened. We believe they helped cushion the
> impact by crumpling, though, and I had no back injuries.
>
> I got my toolboxes from Murle Williams <http://
> MurleWilliamsAviation.com>
>
> Mike G.
> Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
> Phoenix, AZ
>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking |
When I bought my minimally completed kit, it came with a seat support
kit, which consisted of 2" wide web strapping, and 8 hose clamps,
and directions for slotting the seat so the clamps could be slid
through the slots and around the fuselage tubes. I installed all 8 at
first, then during the first annual, cut the number to 4. Big PITA to
R & R them, and I feel 4 does the job WAY more than the tiewraps
could ever hope to.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 22, 2008, at 1:54 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
> I know a guy that has put over a thousand hours on two Model IVs
> and has never tied the seat pan to the airframe with the nylon
> tiewraps. I have seen him in "turn back" turbulance and tons of
> off airport landings with no incidences.
>
> Lowell Fitt
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking |
Lynn,
When I installed my seat pan (at the very end of the build process) I
had already installed four web straps to support the seat from
'falling' onto the controls. (Each piece of webbing is good for
supporting over a ton.) I opted to use the tie wraps (instead of hose
clamps) figuring they're there just to keep the seat pan from bouncing
up and off the support tubes in case of turbulence. I don't see that
they don't provide any other obvious function. Even wearing the seat
belts provides substantial down force on the seat to hold it in
place. Am I missing something here about the hose clamps?
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
On Dec 22, 2008, at 4:16 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:
>
> When I bought my minimally completed kit, it came with a seat
> support kit, which consisted of 2" wide web strapping, and 8 hose
> clamps, and directions for slotting the seat so the clamps could be
> slid through the slots and around the fuselage tubes. I installed
> all 8 at first, then during the first annual, cut the number to 4.
> Big PITA to R & R them, and I feel 4 does the job WAY more than the
> tiewraps could ever hope to.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
>
>
> On Dec 22, 2008, at 1:54 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
>
>> >
>
>> I know a guy that has put over a thousand hours on two Model IVs
>> and has never tied the seat pan to the airframe with the nylon
>> tiewraps. I have seen him in "turn back" turbulance and tons of
>> off airport landings with no incidences.
>>
>> Lowell Fitt
>>
>
>
Message 36
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|
Ha, Ha...you might be right, Deke. I got stuck in the drive to the
hangar today, and when unstuck, I was too pooped to participate in
flying. Tomorrow maybe...
It's a shame, too, because even at 9 degrees above zero F, the engine
in my Kitfox reported a toasty 106 F oil temp, and 65 F head
temp...it was just beggin' to be lit up!
You guys who are building, keep up the good work...you guys who live
where there's snow and don't have skis, I would suggest strongly to
get some and enjoy winter flying...it's fun!
Oh, by the way, I just got around to adding up the hours in my
logbook, and last Thursday, I reached my 500th hour of solo flight.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 22, 2008, at 3:18 PM, fox5flyer wrote:
> <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
>
> Lynn, STOP PRAYING! We've got enough snow.
> Deke
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 5:58 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis
>
>
>> Pat-
>> Here are the pictures of the pedestal parts that I've built so far,
>> and a mockup of the proposed ski using 3/4" wood where 4130 round
>> tubing and flat plate will be. As you can see, the 4 holes in the
>> "stub axle" will bolt up to the back side of the Grove gear. If I
>> choose to leave this stub axle in place all year long...with suitable
>> fairing made of fiberglass....installation will be simply sliding the
>> ski onto the axle and securing the nut and cotter pin, and attaching
>> all the safety cables, etc., ...and praying for snow.
>>
Message 37
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| Subject: | [!! SPAM] RE: Kitfox-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 12/21/08 |
Guy Buchanan wrote:
> At 09:50 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote:
>
> > My 582-90 does not have a thermostat. Can one simply be added to the intake
> > or is a new intake housing needed?
> >
> >
>
> I'm guessing you still have the thermostat housing attached to the
> head, or else someone went to a lot of unnecessary work fabricating a
> replacement. As such you should be able to simply install one.
>
>
> > I am not clear on the implications of a
> > thermostat to prevent cold seizure. Seems that with no thermostat, a
> > prolonged idling descent would allow constant circulation rather than a
> > buildup of cool water in the radiator, thus no cold seizure risk. Am I
> > thinking logically?
> >
> >
>
> You've got it right. I've heard a lot of people don't use them. I
> don't know what the implications are, however, of trying to run the
> engine at full power with the whole thing really cold. (I.e. less
> than the 140F the thermostat opens at.) Presumably Rotax included a
> thermostat for a reason.
>
>
> > And, will an occasional engine runup while descending
> > prevent seizure?
> >
> >
>
> Yes and no. What you have to do to prevent cold seizure is either: 1)
> keep the radiator water circulating, therefore keep the water temp
> above 140, at least occasionally, or 2) return to power very
> gradually, the same way you would warm the engine on the ground. I
> either do very gradual high power descents keeping everything warm or
> steep low power descents followed by a gradual increase in RPM
> watching the water temp and keeping the RPM below, say 4000. The
> latter is very difficult to do when it's really cold. I have had to
> slow to near stall to get the engine to warm gradually. Hopefully
> Noel or Dave or one of the other northern fliers will reply. They
> must do this all the time.
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade
> 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar
I found the best technique is to stay below 100' AGL at all time... makes decent
real easy lol. In all honesty, running a thermostat, I have never had an issue
with the engine cooling too much on a low power decent from the one time I
did go to 8,000. Most of the time I never go above 1,000 unless I am practicing
stalls or minimum speed maneuvers. on the decent from 8,000 I just pulled
it back to about 3000 - 3500 and pointed the nose downhill with flaps on. A
slip here and there to keep speeds under control and you can fall outa the sky
pretty darn quick and still keep the water circulating.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220609#220609
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking |
I don't think you're missing a thing, Rick. In fact, I think I missed
something when I installed them. I think the maker of that
aftermarket kit went overboard when they decided on the hose
clamps...and these are the 1/2" wide jobs to boot. I may just opt for
the tiewraps in the future, or at the very most the narrower 1/4"
size hose clamps.
My web straps are slotted so the hose clamps or tie wraps can go
through them and help hold them in place.
I guess I should have said earlier that the "4 hose clamps are WAY
more than *necessary* to do the job."
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 22, 2008, at 4:30 PM, Weiss Richard wrote:
> Lynn,
>
> When I installed my seat pan (at the very end of the build process)
> I had already installed four web straps to support the seat from
> 'falling' onto the controls. (Each piece of webbing is good for
> supporting over a ton.) I opted to use the tie wraps (instead of
> hose clamps) figuring they're there just to keep the seat pan from
> bouncing up and off the support tubes in case of turbulence. I
> don't see that they don't provide any other obvious function. Even
> wearing the seat belts provides substantial down force on the seat
> to hold it in place. Am I missing something here about the hose
> clamps?
>
>
> Rick Weiss
> N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
> SkyStar S/N 1
> Port Orange, FL
>
>
> On Dec 22, 2008, at 4:16 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:
>
>>
>> When I bought my minimally completed kit, it came with a seat
>> support kit, which consisted of 2" wide web strapping, and 8 hose
>> clamps, and directions for slotting the seat so the clamps could
>> be slid through the slots and around the fuselage tubes. I
>> installed all 8 at first, then during the first annual, cut the
>> number to 4. Big PITA to R & R them, and I feel 4 does the job WAY
>> more than the tiewraps could ever hope to.
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Kitfox-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 12/21/08 |
Real northern fliers cool with air.
Sorry, Guy, you left the door w-i-d-e o-p-e-n : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Dec 22, 2008, at 1:39 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
> Hopefully Noel or Dave or one of the other northern fliers will
> reply. They must do this all the time.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
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| Subject: | Re: Slipping with Flaps |
I would bet alot of dead guys up here that get into a "moose hunter" stall and
spin in would disagree.
Just take it up, put it into a slip, and keep hauling the stick back (at altitude
of course). First time I did an un-coordinated stall in a 172 it taught me
a lesson on how fast you find yourself upside down and spinning in. Did it in
the 12 and in my avid too just to see what would happen. It can indeed tuck
a wing and snap on you.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220614#220614
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| Subject: | Everybody ground loops? |
Hello,
I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a completed Fox
(TD). I have no TD time and while becoming taildragger-proficient is appealing
to me, ground-looping one is *not*!
I am based at a towered field and, if nothing else, I sure don't want the aggravation
of an NTSB investigation and the impact on my insurance. I have about
525 incident-and-accident-free hours now and I'd like to keep it that way (almost
all in Cessnas and the Cirrus SR22).
So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, and GOOD training
in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ expect to ground-loop it
at *some* point?
How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours in Kitfoxes
while never looping raise your hand! :)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220632#220632
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking |
> I am going to repair the fiberglass and thought Id check to see if anyone has
dealt with this problem. I dont want to make the fiberglass repair and then just
have it crack again in the same place.
Ken, I broke my seat during the building. I had the seat sitting in the fuselage
and was in there doing something. I put all my 160 pounds on one knee on the
center ridge and it popped like a rifle shot. It had a crack clear through
about six inches long. I fixed it by laminating a couple layers of fiberglass
cloth on the underside. I tested it with the knee treatment after it cured
and have not had any more problems. It's probably stronger that new.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220634#220634
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| Subject: | Re: Everybody ground loops? |
> So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, and GOOD
training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ expect to ground-loop it
at *some* point?
>
> How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours in Kitfoxes
while never looping raise your hand!
Paul, I can't raise my hand. I was like you. Everyone kept telling me how difficult
the dreaded tail wheel is. I fixated on it so much it became a self fulling
prophecy for me.
I then did as you plan, I found an old instructor with an old airplane and they
both still worked. I got my TW indorcement from him, then got more dual in a
kitfox until I felt real comfortable. No more problems, knock on wood.
PS, it's not the number of TW hours you have thats important...except to the insurance
company...it's the number of takeoffs and landings that hones your skill.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220639#220639
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| Subject: | Re: Everybody ground loops? |
My hand's not up, but how's 1 in 500?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Dec 22, 2008, at 6:26 PM, Paul Folbrecht wrote:
> <paul.folbrecht@veribox.net>
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a
> completed Fox (TD). I have no TD time and while becoming
> taildragger-proficient is appealing to me, ground-looping one is
> *not*!
>
> I am based at a towered field and, if nothing else, I sure don't
> want the aggravation of an NTSB investigation and the impact on my
> insurance. I have about 525 incident-and-accident-free hours now
> and I'd like to keep it that way (almost all in Cessnas and the
> Cirrus SR22).
>
> So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor,
> and GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_
> expect to ground-loop it at *some* point?
>
> How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours
> in Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand! :)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220632#220632
>
>
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I have never flown anything but a tail dragger and I think people spend
way to much time worrying about it. Learn to handle the plane on the
ground with the tail down then get the tail up and do some high speed
taxi runs. If you can't handle it on the ground you will get in serious
trouble if you fly it.
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
Do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: Everybody ground loops? |
Thanks for the replies. I do hear from some locals that the KF is considered a
*very* docile taildragger.
(But then I read here in another thread the "Two kinds of TG pilots mantra repeated...)
I will most likely be going for it... and then maybe even building one on top if
it. They're just so darn cute. And practical.
P
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220657#220657
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| Subject: | Re: Everybody ground loops? |
At 03:26 PM 12/22/2008, you wrote:
>So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor,
>and GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_
>expect to ground-loop it at *some* point?
>
>How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours
>in Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand! :)
OK, all you guys without insurance, raise your hand. I'm not
admitting to ANYTHING. O:-)
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade
100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Everybody ground loops? |
I have over 7000 hrs in taildraggers with over 800 hrs in a Kitfox. I never
had a ground loop.
Floran Higgins
Speedster
912ULS
Helena, Mt.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 5:01 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops?
>
> My hand's not up, but how's 1 in 500?
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
> do not archive
>
>
> On Dec 22, 2008, at 6:26 PM, Paul Folbrecht wrote:
>
>> <paul.folbrecht@veribox.net>
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a
>> completed Fox (TD). I have no TD time and while becoming
>> taildragger-proficient is appealing to me, ground-looping one is *not*!
>>
>> I am based at a towered field and, if nothing else, I sure don't want
>> the aggravation of an NTSB investigation and the impact on my insurance.
>> I have about 525 incident-and-accident-free hours now and I'd like to
>> keep it that way (almost all in Cessnas and the Cirrus SR22).
>>
>> So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, and
>> GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ expect to
>> ground-loop it at *some* point?
>>
>> How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours in
>> Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand! :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220632#220632
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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=======AVGMAIL-49505CD20000=======--
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| Subject: | Re: Everybody ground loops? |
Guy Buchanan wrote:
> At 03:26 PM 12/22/2008, you wrote:
>
> > So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor,
> > and GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_
> > expect to ground-loop it at *some* point?
> >
> > How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours
> > in Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand! :)
> >
> >
>
> OK, all you guys without insurance, raise your hand. I'm not
> admitting to ANYTHING. O:-)
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade
> 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar
No insurance here... rather spend the money on gas and continue to push the little
planes as far as I can (hopefully without breaking over the edge lol)
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220670#220670
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| Subject: | Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking |
Lowell=2C My Mod 3 seat pan has holes in it and on the frame cross members
that match up for rivets. You mention using tie wraps to attach pan to fram
e. Is that the normal method? I mounted my radiator with your shutters toda
y after combining the parts you sent to me to modify the shutters to accomo
date my taller radiator. Looks like they will work fine. I purchased the co
ntrol cable you recommended. Any progress on the electric trim kit yet?
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rocford=2C IL> From: lcfitt@sbcglobal.net> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> S
ubject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking> Date: Mon
l Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>> > Ken=2C> > My suggestion would be to scuff
sand the cracked edge top and bottom and lay > a couple of layers of fiber
glass tape (top and bottom) over the surface near > the edge. The top (whit
e) layer is gelcoat and make sure the scuff sanding > removes the gelcoat i
n the affected areas. the edge would then be similar to > a foam sandwich w
here the original glass and cracks would be like the foam > and really non
structural and the layers of glass top and bottom would be > the structural
part. Also my opinion is that your repair would be for the > most part to
eliminate the noise and give some confidence that the seat will > not crack
straight across. Fiber glass structures are not like plexiglass > where a
crack will always continue to propagate. Consider also that seat > lockers
were common options for small tools etc. These required cutting > large hol
es in the seat bottoms which would seriously weaken the structure.> > Regar
ding the seat pan failures in the past. I don't think there has ever > been
a pan failure in a Model I through IV. The failures came after Skystar > a
dded the trim panel in front of the seat and needed to change the leading >
edge of the seat from the tube grabbing "C" lip to the gentler curved and
> shorter 45=B0 lip to accommodate the trim panel. This is a classic exampl
e of > how a seemingly non structural design change to add a bit of eye app
eal (and > weight) resulted in a serious safety issue. The failures were no
t > structural failures of the pan=2C but would come on a hard landing or s
evere > turbulence when the seat would spring down under the pilot's weight
and the > forward lip would slip off the bulkhead tube. I am not aware of
a seat > failure from structural collapse. Also regarding the old style=2C
I know a > guy that has put over a thousand hours on two Model IVs and has
never tied > the seat pan to the airframe with the nylon tiewraps. I have s
een him in > "turn back" turbulance and tons of off airport landings with n
o incidences.> > Lowell Fitt> Cameron Park=2C CA> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL> C
urrently focusing on the Left Wing - almost ready to cover=2C fuselage as >
well.> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ken Harrison" <kenharrison@
comporium.net>> To: "Kitfox List" <kitfox-list@matronics.com>> Sent: Monday
=2C December 22=2C 2008 7:11 AM> Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglas
s Seat Pan Cracking> > > What is the best way to keep the fiberglass seat f
rom cracking? Mine has> very small cracks that are right at the outside edg
es both sides=2C basically> half way up the back. It makes a crackling soun
d every time I get in. I> have re-enforced the seat with some seat belt mat
erial underneath but was> wondering if anyone has a better solution.> > I a
m going to repair the fiberglass and thought I=B9d check to see if anyone>
has dealt with this problem. I don=B9t want to make the fiberglass repair a
nd> then just have it crack again in the same place.> > I=B9ve read about t
he seats failing and jamming the controls...always in the> back of my mind.
=======================> > >
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| Subject: | Re: Everybody ground loops? |
I have 3K plus hrs in TD stuff and if it hadn't been for
AKFLYER I whould have spudded my brand new KF l on
my first flight.
To say the least they are rudder unfriendly.
Now that I can control it, it is a blast, and I am proud to
own one. Well two, am working on a lll that was never finished.
If you can fly, you will love the K F.
Bob.
--------
Bob Wolfe..Soldotna, Alaska
KF Mod I and III
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220677#220677
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking |
Yes, Pat, when I built my 1993 Model IV the standard installation for the
seat pan was tiewraps. As I recall I put them about every six inches. I
used the ones that are about 9 inches long. I rechecked the manual and it
calls for eight in front and nine across the back. Keep in mind that the
tiewraps, the manual calls the them zip ties, are to hold the pan down on
the tubing supports. The "C" shaped lips keet it off the controls. I plan
to use the same method on the IV I am building now. I see no reason not to.
As I mentioned, the failures were due to the pan slipping off the forward
tube support due to a redesign of the forward pan lip. Also the tiewraps
are replaced every annual as the seat pan is removed to inspect linkages
beneath it, so no age issues there.
Regarding the elevator trim kit. It is still on the back burner pending a
completion of a current project. I am within a week of finishing that - I
think - then I will get the tooling out and make up the kit parts and try
to determine a cost. Maybe the first week in January for the results.
Yes, retired folks no longer get weekends and holidays. I will probably
spend at least part of Christmas day in the hangar trying to burn some holes
in some 4130 tubing or maybe if I am lucky, bending some aluminum into a
trim tab.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "patrick reilly" <patreilly43@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 8:06 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking
Lowell, My Mod 3 seat pan has holes in it and on the frame cross members
that match up for rivets. You mention using tie wraps to attach pan to
frame. Is that the normal method? I mounted my radiator with your shutters
today after combining the parts you sent to me to modify the shutters to
accomodate my taller radiator. Looks like they will work fine. I purchased
the control cable you recommended. Any progress on the electric trim kit
yet?
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rocford, IL> From: lcfitt@sbcglobal.net> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking> Date:
"Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>> > Ken,> > My suggestion would be to
scuff sand the cracked edge top and bottom and lay > a couple of layers of
fiberglass tape (top and bottom) over the surface near > the edge. The top
(white) layer is gelcoat and make sure the scuff sanding > removes the
gelcoat in the affected areas. the edge would then be similar to > a foam
sandwich where the original glass and cracks would be like the foam > and
really non structural and the layers of glass top and bottom would be > the
structural part. Also my opinion is that your repair would be for the > most
part to eliminate the noise and give some confidence that the seat will >
not crack straight across. Fiber glass structures are not like plexiglass >
where a crack will always continue to propagate. Consider also that seat >
lockers were common options for small tools etc. These required cutting >
large holes in the seat bottoms which would seriously weaken the structure.>
> Regarding the seat pan failures in the past. I don't think there has ever
> been a pan failure in a Model I through IV. The failures came after
Skystar > added the trim panel in front of the seat and needed to change the
leading > edge of the seat from the tube grabbing "C" lip to the gentler
curved and > shorter 45 lip to accommodate the trim panel. This is a
classic example of > how a seemingly non structural design change to add a
bit of eye appeal (and > weight) resulted in a serious safety issue. The
failures were not > structural failures of the pan, but would come on a hard
landing or severe > turbulence when the seat would spring down under the
pilot's weight and the > forward lip would slip off the bulkhead tube. I am
not aware of a seat > failure from structural collapse. Also regarding the
old style, I know a > guy that has put over a thousand hours on two Model
IVs and has never tied > the seat pan to the airframe with the nylon
tiewraps. I have seen him in > "turn back" turbulance and tons of off
airport landings with no incidences.> > Lowell Fitt> Cameron Park, CA> Model
IV-1200 R-912 UL> Currently focusing on the Left Wing - almost ready to
cover, fuselage as > well.> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ken
Harrison" <kenharrison@comporium.net>> To: "Kitfox List"
<kitfox-list@matronics.com>> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 7:11 AM>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking> > > What is
the best way to keep the fiberglass seat from cracking? Mine has> very small
cracks that are right at the outside edges both sides, basically> half way
up the back. It makes a crackling sound every time I get in. I> have
re-enforced the seat with some seat belt material underneath but was>
wondering if anyone has a better solution.> > I am going to repair the
fiberglass and thought Id check to see if anyone> has dealt with this
problem. I dont want to make the fiberglass repair and> then just have it
crack again in the same place.> > Ive read about the seats failing and
jamming the controls...always in the> back of my
mind.=======================> > >
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| Subject: | Re: Everybody ground loops? |
100 hours total. 70 in my Model IV. No insurance. No ground loop... yet.
--------
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)
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| Subject: | Re: Everybody ground loops? |
AKFLYERBOB wrote:
> I have 3K plus hrs in TD stuff and if it hadn't been for
> AKFLYER I whould have spudded ( uh you mean teerminated with extreme prejudice)
my brand new KF l on
> my first flight.
> To say the least they are rudder unfriendly.
> Now that I can control it, it is a blast, and I am proud to
> own one. Well two, am working on a lll that was never finished.
> If you can fly, you will love the K F.
> Bob.
Sorry Bob, had to go for a slight correction there LOL
Bob is right, I have never flown a plane quite as fun as his kitfox.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
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I used Sherwin Williams 988 self etching primer on the inboard ends of the wing
spars to protect the cut ends(bought quickbuild, pre-rigged wings) while I work
on everything else. I know MEK will take the primer off easily, but some where
I read that it takes a couple of days for the MEk to completely evaporate
after it's wiped off. Is this right or am I imagining things? I'm just concerned
about the Hysol adhereing to this area when I attach the spar doublers.
--------
Jorge Fernandez
Supersport
Fuselage/Forward Controls
http://websites.expercraft.com/jlfernan/
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| Subject: | Re: Everybody ground loops? |
We ground looped once. My son was the PIC. We did a perfect landing on asphalt
that ended in a 270 degrees spin. Then we found out that we also broke the tailwheel
spring. First thought was that the ground loop broke the spring but then
it became evident that it was the opposite. The single spring leaf of my Kitfox
3 broke after about 950 landings and without tailwheel ... we did a ground
loop.
The spring is now replaced by a double leaf one.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying as a PAX
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