Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:03 AM - Re: Skis (Michel Verheughe)
2. 05:18 AM - Re: 582 RPM question. (815TL)
3. 05:42 AM - Re: 582 RPM question. (tc9008@aol.com)
4. 06:19 AM - Tach: Re: 582 RPM question. (aerobatics@aol.com)
5. 06:25 AM - Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Bob Brennan)
6. 07:19 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (vetdrem)
7. 07:40 AM - Re: 582 RPM question. (Marco Menezes)
8. 07:41 AM - Re: Main Jets on 582 (Marco Menezes)
9. 07:55 AM - Re: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Bob Brennan)
10. 07:58 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Randy Daughenbaugh)
11. 07:59 AM - Re: [!! SPAM] Main Jets on 582 (Guy Buchanan)
12. 07:59 AM - Re: 582 RPM question. (Guy Buchanan)
13. 07:59 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Guy Buchanan)
14. 08:01 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Roger Lee)
15. 08:06 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Tom Jones)
16. 08:08 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Bob Brennan)
17. 08:24 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Bob Brennan)
18. 08:31 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Larry Huntley)
19. 08:34 AM - Re: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Bob Brennan)
20. 08:42 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Bob Brennan)
21. 08:57 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Randy Daughenbaugh)
22. 09:21 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Bob Brennan)
23. 09:24 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Larry Huntley)
24. 09:36 AM - Re: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Lynn Matteson)
25. 09:55 AM - Re: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Bob Brennan)
26. 09:56 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License-class 2 gambit?? (john taylor)
27. 10:09 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License-class 2 gambit?? (Bob Brennan)
28. 10:41 AM - Engine Mount Fabrication (Lowell Fitt)
29. 11:18 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License-class 2 gambit?? (Michael Gibbs)
30. 11:49 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License-class 2 gambit?? (Bob Brennan)
31. 12:25 PM - Re: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Lynn Matteson)
32. 01:29 PM - Re: Engine Mount Fabrication (ron schick)
33. 02:06 PM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (patrick reilly)
34. 04:32 PM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Lynn Matteson)
35. 06:03 PM - Re: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Weiss Richard)
36. 07:21 PM - Re: Engine Mount Fabrication (Bradley Webb)
37. 07:23 PM - Kitfox-list: List Nazis (Guy Buchanan)
38. 07:44 PM - Re: Kitfox-list: List Nazis (Weiss Richard)
39. 08:14 PM - Re: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License ()
40. 08:14 PM - Re: Kitfox-list: List Nazis ()
41. 11:47 PM - Re: Brake Problems (jridgway)
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On Dec 25, 2008, at 11:53 AM, akflyer wrote:
> The ski bottoms are NOT stepped, they are flat.
As far as I understand, the step on a seaplane pontoon is there to ventilate the
water aft of it and give less drag. I agree, it doesn't make very much sense
in the snow.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying as PAX
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
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| Subject: | Re: 582 RPM question. |
Thank you guys. It could be that the tach. is off. Is there a way to test it,
and calibrate it. I know that as of October that the plane was flying well,
as that is the last time that Larry Huntley flew it. Nothing has really changed
motor wise since then, except for repair of the starter.
Andrew
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221180#221180
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| Subject: | Re: 582 RPM question. |
I have a grey 582 c box and my static rpm is 6200 which gives me 6800 on take off
and climb out. With one person flying 5800 is good crusing.
Travis
-----Original Message-----
From: 815TL <lawrenceaw@corning.com>
Sent: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 7:58 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 RPM question.
Just a quick question about 582 RPMs. I ran the engine up today, keeping it
lubed up. My instructor and I plan to start flying the first or second weekend
of Jan. weather permitting.
After warm up, I ran the power up the full throttle for 30 seconds or so. The
tach. is labeled on the glass with a green and red arc sticker. It looks like
it was hand put on by the last owner. Anyway, red starts about 6200. At full
throttle, on the ground, it was making about 5800-5900. The engine ran well,
and did not hiccup at all.
I know that in cruise it will unload a little, and have a little higher RPM over
a static test, but I was just wondering if those RPMs were OK, or off the mark,
seeing that the max of the 582 is somewhere around 6800.
The setup is a 582 gray head, with dual Bing 54 carbs., C gearbox, (not sure of
ratio), and a 3 blade Warp Drive. Running about full rich, as the on EGT was
around 1150+. Cool 25*F, at 1700MSL.
Does the pitch of the prop make much of a difference in RPM?
Andrew
Kitfox II, 815TL, Rotax 582C, Warp Drive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221137#221137
, FAQ,
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| Subject: | Re: Tach: Re: 582 RPM question. |
buy a cheap radio control optical tach then using math from ur gear
box ....ps those tach are VERY accurate Cermak is a good brand...
Dave
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| Subject: | Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License |
>From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter:
--------------------------------
Question of the Week
My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a
sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this
forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport
pilot?
Answer:
The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of
an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for an FAA
medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA.
There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long
ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal took place.
The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long
ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid
medical certificate. If that is not the case you are required to re-apply
for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medical issued in order to
be able to take advantage of the possibility of using your driver's license
in lieu of the medical certificate in the future.
--------------------------------
So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and
being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate up-to-date;
that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical condition during
the medical exam the only choices are to correct the condition or stop
flying. However if the condition is discovered before the exam we can apply
for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it simply continue flying on a
PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition.
Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my
Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually
*avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of
responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport
Pilot license - that's already been covered here and is not my point.
My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I
rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and
switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably catch up with
me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing
the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes me to fail my
medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in effect
"hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as
long as I retain a driver's license.
Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your
condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an
AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is
there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my
medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be
the only way of doing it soon.
Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm
sure it's close to a lot of people on this list.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
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| Subject: | Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License |
I was doing exactly as you are considering doing. I allowed my medical certificate
to expire and flew my Taylorcraft and my kitfox (both meet the light sport
regulations) as a "private pilot, exercising sport pilot privleges".
I could not fly anything that did not meet those requirements, but I didn't need
to, anyway.
I was considering a trip to Canada, and was going to get a seaplane rating, so
I crossed my fingers, and went to the AME for an exam. I passed and there was
no problem, but if there had been, you are right, I would have had to correct
the condition causing the failure before I could have flown again.
You seem to be looking at allowing your medical to expire as HIDING something from
the FAA, but you really are not. The rule says that if your state says that
you are healthy enough to drive a car, then you are healthy enough to fly under
the sport pilot rules. If you have a condition that makes it unsafe for
you to drive, then of course, you can not fly.
If at a later time you decide that the sport pilot privileges are too restrictive
(you want to rent that 152 or you want to fly at night, or something else)
you can simply go to the local AME and renew your medical.
Actually, right now, I am flying as a Private Pilot, exercising sport pilot privileges,
even though I have a valid medical. I am required to wear glasses to
be legal to fly, but I don't wear them for any other activity (including driving),
so I fly without them, and if asked, I am legal because they are not required
for my drivers license.
Louie
model 3 w/ 912ul and a T-craft
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221188#221188
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| Subject: | Re: 582 RPM question. |
"Optimal" performance with a 582 is-a matter of personal preference and i
nvolves balancing prop pitch, rpms, carb jetting and EGT's. Check out Mike
Stratman's articles for great instruction on achieving the balance. http://
www.800-airwolf.com/articles.htm
-
>From the numbers you gave, it appears the previous owner had "the balance"
set where he liked it. Could be different for you.
-
Prop pitch will most certainly affect rpms, rate of climb, cruise speed and
egts.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
--- On Thu, 12/25/08, 815TL <lawrenceaw@corning.com> wrote:
From: 815TL <lawrenceaw@corning.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 RPM question.
<lawrenceaw@corning.com>
Just a quick question about 582 RPMs. I ran the engine up today, keeping i
t
lubed up. My instructor and I plan to start flying the first or second wee
kend
of Jan. weather permitting.
After warm up, I ran the power up the full throttle for 30 seconds or so.
The
tach. is labeled on the glass with a green and red arc sticker. It looks l
ike
it was hand put on by the last owner. Anyway, red starts about 6200. At f
ull
throttle, on the ground, it was making about 5800-5900. The engine ran wel
l,
and did not hiccup at all.
I know that in cruise it will unload a little, and have a little higher RPM
over a static test, but I was just wondering if those RPMs were OK, or off
the
mark, seeing that the max of the 582 is somewhere around 6800.
The setup is a 582 gray head, with dual Bing 54 carbs., C gearbox, (not sur
e of
ratio), and a 3 blade Warp Drive. Running about full rich, as the on EGT w
as
around 1150+. Cool 25*F, at 1700MSL.
Does the pitch of the prop make much of a difference in RPM?
Andrew
Kitfox II, 815TL, Rotax 582C, Warp Drive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221137#221137
=0A=0A=0A
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Main Jets on 582 |
Jack,
-
Main jet change on the Bing 54 will mostly affect higher range of rpms. Jet
needles affect the mid-range and will require most seasonal tweaking. Agai
n, check out Mike Strattman's articles, especially parts 10, 11. He gives t
he best explanation around on adjusting carbs to get what you want out of a
582. http://www.800-airwolf.com/articles.htm
-
Nothing should fall out when you remove float bowl, unless you flip the bow
l over. Floats normally stay with the carb body.-Easier to swap main jets
with the carbs out, as I recall, but try adjusting or replacing-the jet
needles first. That can be easily done with carbs in place.
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
--- On Thu, 12/25/08, jridgway <jridgway@academicplanet.com> wrote:
From: jridgway <jridgway@academicplanet.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Main Jets on 582
<jridgway@academicplanet.com>
Have a quick question. I am running a EGT of about 1000 with my 165 jets th
at
we included with the KF3/Rotax 582 I just purchased. The previous owner als
o
provided a spare set of 160 mail jets. It looks likes from the Rotax
documentation that given the TEMP and ALT here this time of year the 160 sh
ould
work better. KF is a little 'piggy/running rich' now.
Question 1) Will going from a 165 to a 160 likely lean the engine out some
so I
can get a little performance out of it and get closer to a 1100 EGT?
Question 2) When I remove the lower bowl what parts will drop out? 2 floats
,
fuel stabilizer, float arm? Can I just them replace the 165 jets with the 1
60
jets while the carb is still on the aircraft? Will I likely have to tweak t
he
carbs? This looks like a 1 minute job. Any potential problems/issues?
thanks..jack
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221156#221156
=0A=0A=0A
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| Subject: | Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License |
Thanks for the reply Louie, let me be a little more specific. And tell a
story, as older guys love to do ;-)
I went through a stressful divorce a few years ago, and have a family
history of high blood pressure. Realising the stress of the time was not
healthy for me, and also realising that if I didn't control it I might end
up choking the sh*t out of someone who desperately needed it (joking of
course, sort of), I decided to join a local gym. Partly because it was a
healthy alternative and about the same price as the amount of alcohol I was
wanting to consume but also offered better opportunity to interact with fit
members of the opposite sex<g>.
The application to the gym included a blood pressure test; obviously due to
the stress it was above their limits, so I was denied the ability to use
their equipment to lower my blood pressure. More logical than the FAA
situation, but a catch-22 none the less. So I cut out all salt and fat, took
aspirin 3 times a day for a week, and went to my doctor to get a certified
reading within their limits. Oh, and also met a lovely lady at the gym who
just flew over from the UK (where I lived at the time) to visit, although no
plans for future commitments.
Story finished, I realise that the FAA requirements for blood pressure range
could make me fail my examination even though it is hereditary and I have
learned how to control it myself, but more importantly it would never
restrict my driver's license and hence flying as a sport pilot.
My reason for this post is not about my blood pressure, which I know if
worst case made me fail my medical I could go on FAA-approved medication and
re-take the exam and get a medical. Or dose up on aspirin again. My reason
for posting is - what if the AME finds something I can't easily control but
would not have affected my ability to fly as a Sport Pilot?
I know many older guys (many on this list) who know they have a condition
that would not allow them to pass a medical so they made the decision to fly
as a Sport Pilot, which BTW I think is a GREAT boon to allow older pilots to
fly under certain restrictions rather than as it was in the past.
My question is that it does not seem logical, or fair, or encouraging
honesty on the part of the pilot; that if the uncorrectable condition is
discovered as a rejection of a medical certificate then the pilot can never
fly again, whereas if it is discovered as part of a routine medical then the
pilot can convert to lower privileges himself. It sounds like the FAA is
saying "what we don't know won't hurt us, only you; but if we do know then
we can't let you even make that decision". Or am I missing something?
It discourages guys like me from maintaining their medical certificate as a
means of knowing that nothing has changed since my last physical, and in
doing so discourages safety. It's tough enough to get a guy to go to the
doctor at all!
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of vetdrem
Sent: 26 December 2008 10:19 am
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
I was doing exactly as you are considering doing. I allowed my medical
certificate to expire and flew my Taylorcraft and my kitfox (both meet the
light sport regulations) as a "private pilot, exercising sport pilot
privleges".
I could not fly anything that did not meet those requirements, but I didn't
need to, anyway.
I was considering a trip to Canada, and was going to get a seaplane rating,
so I crossed my fingers, and went to the AME for an exam. I passed and
there was no problem, but if there had been, you are right, I would have had
to correct the condition causing the failure before I could have flown
again.
You seem to be looking at allowing your medical to expire as HIDING
something from the FAA, but you really are not. The rule says that if your
state says that you are healthy enough to drive a car, then you are healthy
enough to fly under the sport pilot rules. If you have a condition that
makes it unsafe for you to drive, then of course, you can not fly.
If at a later time you decide that the sport pilot privileges are too
restrictive (you want to rent that 152 or you want to fly at night, or
something else) you can simply go to the local AME and renew your medical.
Actually, right now, I am flying as a Private Pilot, exercising sport pilot
privileges, even though I have a valid medical. I am required to wear
glasses to be legal to fly, but I don't wear them for any other activity
(including driving), so I fly without them, and if asked, I am legal because
they are not required for my drivers license.
Louie
model 3 w/ 912ul and a T-craft
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221188#221188
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| Subject: | Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License |
Bob,
You don't have to "apply" for a sport pilot license. You just fly as a
sport pilot with a private license.
Randy
Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot..
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
>From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter:
--------------------------------
Question of the Week
My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a
sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this
forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport
pilot?
Answer:
The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of
an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for an FAA
medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA.
There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long
ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal took place.
The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long
ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid
medical certificate. If that is not the case you are required to re-apply
for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medical issued in order to
be able to take advantage of the possibility of using your driver's license
in lieu of the medical certificate in the future.
--------------------------------
So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and
being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate up-to-date;
that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical condition during
the medical exam the only choices are to correct the condition or stop
flying. However if the condition is discovered before the exam we can apply
for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it simply continue flying on a
PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition.
Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my
Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually
*avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of
responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport
Pilot license - that's already been covered here and is not my point.
My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I
rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and
switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably catch up with
me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing
the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes me to fail my
medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in effect
"hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as
long as I retain a driver's license.
Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your
condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an
AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is
there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my
medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be
the only way of doing it soon.
Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm
sure it's close to a lot of people on this list.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
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| Subject: | Re: Main Jets on 582 |
At 08:25 PM 12/25/2008, you wrote:
>Question 2) When I remove the lower bowl what parts will drop out? 2
>floats, fuel stabilizer, float arm? Can I just them replace the 165
>jets with the 160 jets while the carb is still on the aircraft? Will
>I likely have to tweak the carbs? This looks like a 1 minute job.
>Any potential problems/issues?
Jack,
I can't answer your first question, (yes I know it will lean
the engine, but how much?) but I can definitely say you can swap
mains on the engine. The only loose parts are the bowl, two floats,
and the little cylindrical filter over the jet housing. The only
fiddly thing is that filter which you want to make sure gets on
straight and doesn't get crushed. Not a big problem, just a little
fiddly. (Obviously you want to make sure you've got a good bowl
gasket before you put it back on.)
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade
100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: 582 RPM question. |
At 04:58 PM 12/25/2008, you wrote:
>I know that in cruise it will unload a little, and have a little
>higher RPM over a static test, but I was just wondering if those
>RPMs were OK, or off the mark, seeing that the max of the 582 is
>somewhere around 6800.
Andrew,
As the other members already said, the first step is to
check your RPM with an optical tach. There have been several
instances of analog tachs being off. The optical tachs are made for
RC aircraft. Second, I feel you want to run a 582 at as high an RPM
as you can, since the power band is narrow relative to common 4-cycle
aircraft engines. I set mine up to run 6800 full throttle level
flight at 4500'. This results in about 6200 static. Unfortunately you
have to iterate a bit if you have an adjustable prop. And yes, the
prop pitch controls the RPM directly. Being as close as you are I'd
make changes in 1/2 degree increments.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade
100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License |
At 06:24 AM 12/26/2008, you wrote:
>Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal
>your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I
>shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the
>application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the
>fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online before
>seeing the AME, and I think that might be the only way of doing it soon.
Bob,
From all I've read over the last couple of years you've got
it completely right, and that is one of the most severe criticisms
the Sport Pilot regulations have had to endure. I don't think it's
as onerous as it sounds, since I never cease to be amazed at the
medical conditions people overcome to get their Class 3 back. And all
you have to do is get it back once to revert to Sport Pilot
licensing. I suspect that what's going to happen is the AMEs will
figure out how to "pre-test" people who request it. I do this with my
cars. For a little more money my smog station pre-tests the car, and
if it looks like it's going to fail excessively they will hand it
back to me without running the official smog test. That way I don't
get labeled a "gross-polluter" and have to jump through a bunch of
hoops to get the car smogged. Right now AMEs, once they initiate the
medical review process, must follow through with the FAA, there's no
stopping a failing review. What I don't know is what the FAA has
tasked them with, ethically, with regards to the new Sport Pilot
license. Are they prohibited from giving a physical exam that covers
the Class 3, but is not FAA sanctioned? (Of course, most of the Class
3 physical exam is provided by the examinee. You fill out the
paperwork and certify it. If you know you're going to write something
suspect you're going to want to first pose a hypothetical question to
the AME before you fill out the paperwork. If the answer comes back
negative, I guess you're a Sport Pilot.)
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade
100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License |
Hi Bob,
You are right in your statements. One way some pilots check to see if they will
fail the flight medical is to take advantage of your personal medical insurance
free physical by your personal doctor. Most insurance companies offer one free
physical per year for you and your wife. Use it. If you pass that one ok
then you can go get your PPL medical. If you know you can't pass then don't get
the PPL medical and start flying LSA. It's not a perfect system, but is all
we have.
You are right that if you lose your PPL medical then you would have to get it back
before going to the LSA license.
Once we get past 21 years of age it's all down hill. [Crying or Very sad]
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Service Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221201#221201
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License |
> Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your condition
to an AME then you're too stupid to fly".
Yes it sounds like that is what they are saying. One explanation for that wording
in the sport pilot rules is that the FAA realizes it would be contradictory
to deny pilot privileges with one hand...a failed medical...and give them back
with the other...sport pilot rules.
If you go ahead and let your medical lapse you can continue to fly under sport
pilot rules and the FAA is off the hook because they have not denied your medical
and your drivers license fulfills the physical requirements to fly under
sport pilot rules.
I would agree that someone who thinks they may fail an FAA medical, takes that
medical even though they fly LSA eligible airplanes only, and has no compelling
need to maintain a medical, is probably to stupid to be allowed to fly.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221207#221207
Message 16
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| Subject: | Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License |
Randy,
Thanks for your response. I realise that as a PPL I do not need to apply to
fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid driver's license, and to
stay within the restrictions of the Sport Pilot privilege.
But my point was that it seems that if I discover I can no longer get a
class 3 medical by failing that medical then the choice to fly as a Sport
Pilot is no longer available to me. Ever. As long as the condition that
denied me the medical persists. Whereas pilots who chose to stop getting a
medical, and in effect "hide" the condition from the FAA, can continue to
fly.
Would you mind elaborating your own reason for flying as "Private flying
last 4 years as a sport pilot.."? I assume you chose to stop applying for a
medical rather than being denied?
bob
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Bob,
You don't have to "apply" for a sport pilot license. You just fly as a
sport pilot with a private license.
Randy
Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot..
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
>From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter:
--------------------------------
Question of the Week
My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a
sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this
forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport
pilot?
Answer:
The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of
an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for an FAA
medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA.
There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long
ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal took place.
The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long
ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid
medical certificate. If that is not the case you are required to re-apply
for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medical issued in order to
be able to take advantage of the possibility of using your driver's license
in lieu of the medical certificate in the future.
--------------------------------
So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and
being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate up-to-date;
that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical condition during
the medical exam the only choices are to correct the condition or stop
flying. However if the condition is discovered before the exam we can apply
for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it simply continue flying on a
PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition.
Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my
Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually
*avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of
responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport
Pilot license - that's already been covered here and is not my point.
My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I
rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and
switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably catch up with
me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing
the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes me to fail my
medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in effect
"hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as
long as I retain a driver's license.
Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your
condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an
AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is
there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my
medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be
the only way of doing it soon.
Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm
sure it's close to a lot of people on this list.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
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| Subject: | Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License |
Guy,
I was *very* lucky to get an understanding AME who was a pilot himself when
I renewed my medical after many years of being in the UK. The new online
application had many questions, and being the honest (and hence potentially
stupid) guy that I am it asked if I *ever* had any debilitating diseases. I
had a severe case of CFIDS (Chronic Fatigue) more than 20 years ago but have
been in complete remission ever since, but I ticked "yes". The AME advised
me that it might trigger a rejection and used his magical editing privileges
to correct it to a "no" online at FAA.org, something I was not allowed to
undo.
At the time I was not aware of the dire consequences of such honesty and
even now I get an 8 on the 1-10 Sphincter Scale when I think I might have
lost the privilege of being a pilot forever for something that was cured of
twenty years ago. The CFIDS, not the stupidity, obviously... ;-o
Just thought the list should be *very* aware of this particular "hoop". It's
one of those fiery ones.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: 26 December 2008 10:58 am
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
At 06:24 AM 12/26/2008, you wrote:
Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your
condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an
AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is
there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my
medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be
the only way of doing it soon.
Bob,
From all I've read over the last couple of years you've got it
completely right, and that is one of the most severe criticisms the Sport
Pilot regulations have had to endure. I don't think it's as onerous as it
sounds, since I never cease to be amazed at the medical conditions people
overcome to get their Class 3 back. And all you have to do is get it back
once to revert to Sport Pilot licensing. I suspect that what's going to
happen is the AMEs will figure out how to "pre-test" people who request it.
I do this with my cars. For a little more money my smog station pre-tests
the car, and if it looks like it's going to fail excessively they will hand
it back to me without running the official smog test. That way I don't get
labeled a "gross-polluter" and have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get
the car smogged. Right now AMEs, once they initiate the medical review
process, must follow through with the FAA, there's no stopping a failing
review. What I don't know is what the FAA has tasked them with, ethically,
with regards to the new Sport Pilot license. Are they prohibited from giving
a physical exam that covers the Class 3, but is not FAA sanctioned? (Of
course, most of the Class 3 physical exam is provided by the examinee. You
fill out the paperwork and certify it. If you know you're going to write
something suspect you're going to want to first pose a hypothetical question
to the AME before you fill out the paperwork. If the answer comes back
negative, I guess you're a Sport Pilot.)
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade
100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License |
Bob,
I flew for a couple of years as a SP because I was flying a Fox and a
Champ. A friend dropped off his Pacer and asked me to exercise it
occasionally,so I went for a medical again.My Tripacer will be flying
again after a 3 yr rebuild,so I will maintain PP. Otherwise I would fly
as SP anyway ,so why bother.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Brennan
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Randy,
Thanks for your response. I realise that as a PPL I do not need to
apply to fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid driver's
license, and to stay within the restrictions of the Sport Pilot
privilege.
But my point was that it seems that if I discover I can no longer get
a class 3 medical by failing that medical then the choice to fly as a
Sport Pilot is no longer available to me. Ever. As long as the condition
that denied me the medical persists. Whereas pilots who chose to stop
getting a medical, and in effect "hide" the condition from the FAA, can
continue to fly.
Would you mind elaborating your own reason for flying as "Private
flying last 4 years as a sport pilot.."? I assume you chose to stop
applying for a medical rather than being denied?
bob
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Bob,
You don't have to "apply" for a sport pilot license. You just fly as
a sport pilot with a private license.
Randy
Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter:
--------------------------------
Question of the Week
My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly
as a sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification,
but is this forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then
apply for sport pilot?
Answer:
The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in
lieu of an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for
an FAA medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn
by the FAA. There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't
matter how long ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal
took place.
The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter
how long ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special
issuance of a valid medical certificate. If that is not the case you are
required to re-apply for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid
medical issued in order to be able to take advantage of the possibility
of using your driver's license in lieu of the medical certificate in the
future.
--------------------------------
So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL
and being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate
up-to-date; that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical
condition during the medical exam the only choices are to correct the
condition or stop flying. However if the condition is discovered before
the exam we can apply for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it
simply continue flying on a PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without
divulging the medical condition.
Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly
my Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I
actually *avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a
litany of responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated
aircraft and a Sport Pilot license - that's already been covered here
and is not my point.
My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes
I rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and
switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably catch up
with me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that way I
risk losing the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes me
to fail my medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a
medical, in effect "hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to
fly as a Sport Pilot as long as I retain a driver's license.
Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your
condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for
an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the
FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last
time I got my medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I
think that might be the only way of doing it soon.
Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules?
I'm sure it's close to a lot of people on this list.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- (And Get
Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click
onthis year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts!List Contribution Web
Site:--> http://www.matronics.com/contributionThank you for your
generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
- The Kitfox-List Email Forum --->
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - MATRONICS
WEB FORUMS
-http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kit
fox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://fo
rums.matronics.com
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-----
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
12/25/2008 9:40 AM
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License |
Roger,
I need to find a personal physician who knows the complete requirements of a
class 3 airman's medical certificate then, and in my experience those are
AMEs in the first place. But I do appreciate your point. And as Guy pointed
out - does the FAA allow an AME to do a "pre-test"? I was extremely lucky in
the UK to have a CFI who gave me a pre-GFT (General Flight Test) before a
chargeable one. He said if I pass the pre-test I wouldn't need to redo it. I
had several pre-tests... but was only charged once.
BTW what is the point of the drop-your-shorts and turn-you-head-and-cough
part of the class 3 exam?? If I didn't have 'em I wouldn't have become a
pilot in the first place! And is a full rectal exam (optional I was told, I
opted NOT!) really necessary to be a pilot? Again, it's obvious you have to
have one to be one...
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: 26 December 2008 11:01 am
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Hi Bob,
You are right in your statements. One way some pilots check to see if they
will fail the flight medical is to take advantage of your personal medical
insurance free physical by your personal doctor. Most insurance companies
offer one free physical per year for you and your wife. Use it. If you
pass that one ok then you can go get your PPL medical. If you know you can't
pass then don't get the PPL medical and start flying LSA. It's not a perfect
system, but is all we have.
You are right that if you lose your PPL medical then you would have to get
it back before going to the LSA license.
Once we get past 21 years of age it's all down hill. [Crying or Very sad]
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Service Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221201#221201
Message 20
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| Subject: | Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License |
Larry,
"why bother" was something I always thought was an available option, but it
seems that if you, or any PPL-rated pilot, decides to re-validate the
privileges with a class 3 medical; not only risks losing the privileges of
his PPL but also his Sport Pilot privileges and the ability to fly at all,
possibly forever.
That bothers me, but now that I am aware of it I will be careful. Just
posting so others are also aware, or can offer a more logical alternative.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huntley
Sent: 26 December 2008 11:31 am
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Bob,
I flew for a couple of years as a SP because I was flying a Fox and a
Champ. A friend dropped off his Pacer and asked me to exercise it
occasionally,so I went for a medical again.My Tripacer will be flying again
after a 3 yr rebuild,so I will maintain PP. Otherwise I would fly as SP
anyway ,so why bother.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Brennan <mailto:matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Randy,
Thanks for your response. I realise that as a PPL I do not need to apply to
fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid driver's license, and to
stay within the restrictions of the Sport Pilot privilege.
But my point was that it seems that if I discover I can no longer get a
class 3 medical by failing that medical then the choice to fly as a Sport
Pilot is no longer available to me. Ever. As long as the condition that
denied me the medical persists. Whereas pilots who chose to stop getting a
medical, and in effect "hide" the condition from the FAA, can continue to
fly.
Would you mind elaborating your own reason for flying as "Private flying
last 4 years as a sport pilot.."? I assume you chose to stop applying for a
medical rather than being denied?
bob
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Bob,
You don't have to "apply" for a sport pilot license. You just fly as a
sport pilot with a private license.
Randy
Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot..
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
>From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter:
--------------------------------
Question of the Week
My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a
sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this
forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport
pilot?
Answer:
The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of
an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for an FAA
medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA.
There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long
ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal took place.
The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long
ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid
medical certificate. If that is not the case you are required to re-apply
for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medical issued in order to
be able to take advantage of the possibility of using your driver's license
in lieu of the medical certificate in the future.
--------------------------------
So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and
being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate up-to-date;
that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical condition during
the medical exam the only choices are to correct the condition or stop
flying. However if the condition is discovered before the exam we can apply
for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it simply continue flying on a
PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition.
Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my
Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually
*avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of
responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport
Pilot license - that's already been covered here and is not my point.
My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I
rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and
switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably catch up with
me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing
the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes me to fail my
medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in effect
"hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as
long as I retain a driver's license.
Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your
condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an
AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is
there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my
medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be
the only way of doing it soon.
Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm
sure it's close to a lot of people on this list.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on
this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts!
List Contribution Web Site:
--> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you for your generous support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
- The Kitfox-List Email Forum -
--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Li
st">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matron
ics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License |
Bob,
I built my series 5 (series 7 firewall foreward) light and assigned it a
weight of 1320 so it would comply with the sport pilot regs. I see no
reason to keep my private active so I simply save the expense of the
medical. I think I could pass it now, but in a year? 5 years?
I agree. It seems like a dumb situation. As someone said, if you are dumb
enough to go for a physical you can't pass, maybe you shouldn't be flying..
But, I think I have put myself into trying to rationalize the rule. Maybe I
am the dumb one.
Thanks for the CFIDS story. I would not have thought of that.
Randy
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 9:08 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Randy,
Thanks for your response. I realise that as a PPL I do not need to apply to
fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid driver's license, and to
stay within the restrictions of the Sport Pilot privilege.
But my point was that it seems that if I discover I can no longer get a
class 3 medical by failing that medical then the choice to fly as a Sport
Pilot is no longer available to me. Ever. As long as the condition that
denied me the medical persists. Whereas pilots who chose to stop getting a
medical, and in effect "hide" the condition from the FAA, can continue to
fly.
Would you mind elaborating your own reason for flying as "Private flying
last 4 years as a sport pilot.."? I assume you chose to stop applying for a
medical rather than being denied?
bob
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Bob,
You don't have to "apply" for a sport pilot license. You just fly as a
sport pilot with a private license.
Randy
Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot..
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
>From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter:
--------------------------------
Question of the Week
My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a
sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this
forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport
pilot?
Answer:
The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of
an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for an FAA
medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA.
There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long
ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal took place.
The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long
ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid
medical certificate. If that is not the case you are required to re-apply
for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medical issued in order to
be able to take advantage of the possibility of using your driver's license
in lieu of the medical certificate in the future.
--------------------------------
So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and
being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate up-to-date;
that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical condition during
the medical exam the only choices are to correct the condition or stop
flying. However if the condition is discovered before the exam we can apply
for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it simply continue flying on a
PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition.
Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my
Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually
*avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of
responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport
Pilot license - that's already been covered here and is not my point.
My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I
rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and
switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably catch up with
me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing
the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes me to fail my
medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in effect
"hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as
long as I retain a driver's license.
Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your
condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an
AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is
there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my
medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be
the only way of doing it soon.
Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm
sure it's close to a lot of people on this list.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
<>November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on
<>this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts!
<>List Contribution Web Site:
<>--> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
<>Thank you for your generous support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
- The Kitfox-List Email Forum -
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Message 22
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| Subject: | Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License |
Randy,
I am not dumb enough < ;-) > to take a medical that I cannot pass, but it's
the things you didn't think of that get you in the butt.
Another story, sad but true, of a former pilot I knew who was banned from
flying because he checked "yes" on the "have you ever blacked out?" box on
the medical. According to him he had broken his prize meerschaum pipe one
day and fixed it with a bit of epoxy. He smoked it too soon, inhaled bad
fumes, blacked out and was taken to the emergency room and given a clean
bill of health. Yes he may have been dumb for smoking epoxy fumes and dumber
still for admitting it on an FAA form, but the dumbest assumption was that
the FAA would disregard his dumbness in either situation. Last I heard he
was still fighting to get his license back after 4 years of failed attempts.
Maybe it is better he was not allowed to fly, being triple-dumb, but hey we
all can be dumb sometimes!
bob
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: 26 December 2008 11:56 am
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Bob,
I built my series 5 (series 7 firewall foreward) light and assigned it a
weight of 1320 so it would comply with the sport pilot regs. I see no
reason to keep my private active so I simply save the expense of the
medical. I think I could pass it now, but in a year? 5 years?
I agree. It seems like a dumb situation. As someone said, if you are dumb
enough to go for a physical you can't pass, maybe you shouldn't be flying..
But, I think I have put myself into trying to rationalize the rule. Maybe I
am the dumb one.
Thanks for the CFIDS story. I would not have thought of that.
Randy
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 9:08 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Randy,
Thanks for your response. I realise that as a PPL I do not need to apply to
fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid driver's license, and to
stay within the restrictions of the Sport Pilot privilege.
But my point was that it seems that if I discover I can no longer get a
class 3 medical by failing that medical then the choice to fly as a Sport
Pilot is no longer available to me. Ever. As long as the condition that
denied me the medical persists. Whereas pilots who chose to stop getting a
medical, and in effect "hide" the condition from the FAA, can continue to
fly.
Would you mind elaborating your own reason for flying as "Private flying
last 4 years as a sport pilot.."? I assume you chose to stop applying for a
medical rather than being denied?
bob
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Bob,
You don't have to "apply" for a sport pilot license. You just fly as a
sport pilot with a private license.
Randy
Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot..
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
>From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter:
--------------------------------
Question of the Week
My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a
sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this
forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport
pilot?
Answer:
The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of
an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for an FAA
medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA.
There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long
ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal took place.
The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long
ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid
medical certificate. If that is not the case you are required to re-apply
for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medical issued in order to
be able to take advantage of the possibility of using your driver's license
in lieu of the medical certificate in the future.
--------------------------------
So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and
being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate up-to-date;
that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical condition during
the medical exam the only choices are to correct the condition or stop
flying. However if the condition is discovered before the exam we can apply
for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it simply continue flying on a
PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition.
Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my
Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually
*avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of
responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport
Pilot license - that's already been covered here and is not my point.
My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I
rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and
switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably catch up with
me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing
the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes me to fail my
medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in effect
"hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as
long as I retain a driver's license.
Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your
condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an
AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is
there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my
medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be
the only way of doing it soon.
Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm
sure it's close to a lot of people on this list.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
<>November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on
<>this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts!
<>List Contribution Web Site:
<>--> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
<>Thank you for your generous support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
- The Kitfox-List Email Forum -
<>--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on
this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts!
List Contribution Web Site:
--> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you for your generous support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
- The Kitfox-List Email Forum -
--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License |
Sorry Bob,
What I meant was that in my case, if I didn't fly the Tripacer,"why
bother" ,with the medical. I will just keep flying as a SP. You are
correct that if you fail the class 3,you cannot fly SP. If you fail the
Class 3 and it is because of something you can fix or be treated for and
get reinstated,you are home free. Next time around you can become a SP.
Another thought . An FAA person told me some time ago that if you feel
you may have a problem,go for a class 2 medical. If you pass it great.
If not ask your ME if he thinks you could pass a class 3. If he says no,
exam is over. You did not fail a class 3 medical. You are a Sport Pilot.
Larry Huntley KF 4-1200,Soob,500+
.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Brennan
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:41 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Larry,
"why bother" was something I always thought was an available option,
but it seems that if you, or any PPL-rated pilot, decides to re-validate
the privileges with a class 3 medical; not only risks losing the
privileges of his PPL but also his Sport Pilot privileges and the
ability to fly at all, possibly forever.
That bothers me, but now that I am aware of it I will be careful. Just
posting so others are also aware, or can offer a more logical
alternative.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry
Huntley
Sent: 26 December 2008 11:31 am
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Bob,
I flew for a couple of years as a SP because I was flying a Fox and
a Champ. A friend dropped off his Pacer and asked me to exercise it
occasionally,so I went for a medical again.My Tripacer will be flying
again after a 3 yr rebuild,so I will maintain PP. Otherwise I would fly
as SP anyway ,so why bother.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Brennan
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Randy,
Thanks for your response. I realise that as a PPL I do not need to
apply to fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid driver's
license, and to stay within the restrictions of the Sport Pilot
privilege.
But my point was that it seems that if I discover I can no longer
get a class 3 medical by failing that medical then the choice to fly as
a Sport Pilot is no longer available to me. Ever. As long as the
condition that denied me the medical persists. Whereas pilots who chose
to stop getting a medical, and in effect "hide" the condition from the
FAA, can continue to fly.
Would you mind elaborating your own reason for flying as "Private
flying last 4 years as a sport pilot.."? I assume you chose to stop
applying for a medical rather than being denied?
bob
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Bob,
You don't have to "apply" for a sport pilot license. You just fly
as a sport pilot with a private license.
Randy
Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter:
--------------------------------
Question of the Week
My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot
fly as a sport pilot using my driver's license for medical
certification, but is this forever? Could I wait, say six months or one
year, and then apply for sport pilot?
Answer:
The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in
lieu of an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for
an FAA medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn
by the FAA. There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't
matter how long ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal
took place.
The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter
how long ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special
issuance of a valid medical certificate. If that is not the case you are
required to re-apply for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid
medical issued in order to be able to take advantage of the possibility
of using your driver's license in lieu of the medical certificate in the
future.
--------------------------------
So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL
and being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate
up-to-date; that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical
condition during the medical exam the only choices are to correct the
condition or stop flying. However if the condition is discovered before
the exam we can apply for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it
simply continue flying on a PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without
divulging the medical condition.
Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically
fly my Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I
actually *avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a
litany of responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated
aircraft and a Sport Pilot license - that's already been covered here
and is not my point.
My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL
(sometimes I rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2
years, and switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably
catch up with me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that
way I risk losing the privilege to fly forever if the condition that
causes me to fail my medical can't be corrected. However if I do not
take a medical, in effect "hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can
continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as long as I retain a driver's license.
Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal
your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I
shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the
application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the
fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online before seeing
the AME, and I think that might be the only way of doing it soon.
Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in
rules? I'm sure it's close to a lot of people on this list.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- (And Get
Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click
onthis year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts!List Contribution Web
Site:--> http://www.matronics.com/contributionThank you for your
generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
- The Kitfox-List Email Forum --->
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - MATRONICS
WEB FORUMS
-http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kit
fox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://fo
rums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
- 270.10.0/1864 - Release Date: 12/25/2008 9:40 AM
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
12/25/2008 9:40 AM
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License |
> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>
> Thanks for the reply Louie, let me be a little more specific. And
> tell a
> story, as older guys love to do ;-)
WHAAAAAAAT???? ....where'd you hear that? : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License |
Would you like to hear a story about how some guys on this list tell stories
Lynn? ;-)
Fortunately most old guys like stories because it reminds them of, and gives
them permission to tell, stories of their own!
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: 26 December 2008 12:35 pm
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>
> Thanks for the reply Louie, let me be a little more specific. And
> tell a
> story, as older guys love to do ;-)
WHAAAAAAAT???? ....where'd you hear that? : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License-class 2 gambit?? |
-Another thought . An FAA person told me some time ago that if you feel y
ou may have a problem,go for a class 2 medical. If you pass it great. If no
t ask your ME if he thinks you could pass a class 3. If he says no, exam is
over. You did not fail a class 3 medical. You are a Sport Pilot.-- Lar
ry Huntley KF 4-1200,Soob,500+ =0Aanyone else have info on this approach to
the dilemma some who've failed a class 3 face?- interesting idea??- jo
hn bowman, s. la bldg avid+ (fm airdale) prairieville.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A______
__________________________=0AFrom: Larry Huntley <asq@roadrunner.com>=0ATo:
kitfox-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:24:23 AM=0A
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License=0A=0A=0ASorry Bob
,=0A-What I meant was that in my case, if I didn't fly the Tripacer,"why
bother" ,with the medical. I will just keep flying as a SP. You are correct
that if you fail the class 3,you cannot fly SP. If you fail the Class 3 an
d it is because of something you can fix or be treated for and get reinstat
ed,you are home free. Next time around you can become a SP.=0A- Another t
hought . An FAA person told me some time ago that if you feel you may have
a problem,go for a class 2 medical. If you pass it great. If not ask your M
E if he thinks you could pass a class 3. If he says no, exam is over. You d
id not fail a class 3 medical. You are a Sport Pilot.-- Larry Huntley K
F 4-1200,Soob,500+=0A-=0A- . =0A----- Original Message ----- =0AFrom: B
ob Brennan =0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Friday, December 26, 2
008 11:41 AM=0ASubject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License=0A
=0ALarry,=0A-=0A"why bother" was something I always thought was an availa
ble option, but it seems that if you, or any PPL-rated pilot, decides to re
-validate the privileges with a class 3 medical; not only risks losing the
privileges of his PPL but also his Sport Pilot privileges and the ability t
o fly at all, possibly forever.=0A-=0AThat bothers me, but now that I am
aware of it I will be careful. Just posting so others are also aware, or ca
n offer a more logical alternative.=0A-=0ABob Brennan - N717GB=0AELSA Rep
airman, inspection rated=0A1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox=0ARotax 582 with 3 b
lade prop=0AWrightsville Pa=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom
: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huntley=0ASent: 26 December 2008 11:31 am
=0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sp
ort Pilot License=0A=0A=0ABob,=0A- I flew for a couple of years as a SP b
ecause I was flying a Fox and a Champ. A friend dropped off his Pacer and a
sked me to exercise it occasionally,so I went for a medical again.My Tripac
er will be flying again after a 3 yr rebuild,so I will maintain PP. Otherwi
se I would fly as SP anyway ,so why bother.-- =0A----- Original Message
----- =0AFrom: Bob Brennan =0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Frida
y, December 26, 2008 11:07 AM=0ASubject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport
Pilot License=0A=0ARandy,=0A-=0AThanks for your response. I realise that
as a PPL I do not need to apply to fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my
PPL, a valid driver's license, and to stay within the restrictions of-the
Sport Pilot privilege.=0A=0ABut my point was that it seems that if I disco
ver I can no longer get a class 3 medical by failing that medical then the
choice to fly as a Sport Pilot is no longer available to me. Ever. As long
as the condition that denied me the medical persists. Whereas pilots who ch
ose to stop getting a medical, and in effect "hide" the condition from the
FAA, can continue to fly.=0A-=0AWould you mind elaborating your own reaso
n for flying as "Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot=85."? I assum
e you chose to stop applying for a medical rather than being denied? =0A-
=0Abob=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: owner-kitfox-list-s
erver@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Beha
lf Of Randy Daughenbaugh=0ASent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am=0ATo: kitfox-lis
t@matronics.com=0ASubject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
=0A=0A=0ABob,=0AYou don=92t have to =93apply=94 for a sport pilot license.
-You just fly as a sport pilot with a private license.=0A-=0ARandy=0APr
ivate flying last 4 years as a sport pilot=85.=0A-=0A=0A_________________
_______________=0A=0AFrom:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:ow
ner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan=0ASent: Frid
ay, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM=0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Ki
tfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License=0A-=0AFrom the most recent EAA
e-Hotline newsletter:=0A--------------------------------=0AQuestion of the
Week=0AMy medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot
fly as a sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, b
ut is this forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then appl
y for sport pilot? =0AAnswer:=0AThe regulation states that you cannot use y
our driver's license in lieu of an FAA medical certificate if your most rec
ent application for an FAA medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspend
ed or withdrawn by the FAA. There is no time limit on that requirement, so
it doesn't matter how long ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withd
rawal took place.=0AThe last time you applied for an FAA medical certificat
e, no matter how long ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or spec
ial issuance of a valid medical certificate. If that is not the case you ar
e required to re-apply for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medi
cal issued in order to be able to take advantage of the possibility of usin
g your driver's license in lieu of the medical certificate in the future.
=0A--------------------------------=0A-=0ASo for us "older" pilots still
enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and being honest and diligent about k
eeping our medical certificate up-to-date; that sounds like if-the AME-
discovers an excluding medical condition during the medical exam the only c
hoices are to correct the condition or stop flying. However if the conditio
n is discovered before the exam we can apply for a Sport Pilot license, or
as I understand it simply continue flying on a PPL under Sport Pilot restri
ctions, without divulging the medical condition.=0A-=0ADoes that make sen
se? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my Light Sport Kitfox u
nder Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually *avoid* keeping my c
lass 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of responses on the unconn
ectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport Pilot license - that'
s already been covered here and is not my point.=0A-=0AMy point is that I
thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I rent a Cessna) as lo
ng as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and switch to Sport Pilot if
/when age and conditions inevitably catch up with me. But the above quote s
eems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing the privilege to fly for
ever if the condition that causes me to fail my medical can't be corrected.
However if I do not take a medical, in effect "hiding" a condition from th
e FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as long as I retain a driver'
s license.=0A-=0ASounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough t
o reveal your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should
I shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the applicati
on to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although
last time I got my medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I th
ink that might be the only way of doing it soon.=0A-=0AAny AMEs out there
got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm sure it's close to
a lot of people on this list. =0A-=0ABob Brennan - N717GB=0AELSA Repairma
n, inspection rated=0A1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox=0ARotax 582 with 3 blade
prop=0AWrightsvillePa=0A-=0A -=0A -=0A------ -- Please Su
pport Your Lists This Month --=0A---------- (And Get So
me AWESOME FREE Gifts!)=0ANovember is the Annual List Fund Raiser.- Click
on=0Athis year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts!=0AList Contribution Web Si
te:=0A--> http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0AThank you for your genero
us support!=0A--------------------
--------- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.=0A------
--- - The Kitfox-List Email Forum -=0A--> http://www.matronics.com/Na
vigator?Kitfox-List=0A-------------- - MATRONIC
S WEB FORUMS -=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.co
m">http://forums.matronics.com=0A=0A=0A=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/
contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Na
vigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">
http://forums.matronics.com=0A=0A________________________________=0A- 270.1
0.0/1864 - Release Date: 12/25/2008 9:40 AM=0A=0A=0A=0Ahref="http://www.m
atronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.ma
tronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A=0A=0A=0Ahref="http://www.matr
onics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matro
nics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A=0A________________________________
======================0A=0A=0A=0A
Message 27
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| Subject: | Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License-class 2 gambit?? |
The excellent suggestion below will only work for someone concerned that
they might fail a class 3, if you have already failed it's too late. The
regulations clearly state that you can only forego having a class 3 medical
exam if your last exam (whenever it was, for instance I had 20 years lapse
since my last medical and could legally have gone SP if I thought I would
fail) was a pass. No options. Although I am very anxious for someone to step
up and prove me wrong on that one because "no options" sounds so stupid.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated.. and a valid class 3 medical certificate
:-p
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of john taylor
Sent: 26 December 2008 12:56 pm
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License-class 2 gambit??
Another thought . An FAA person told me some time ago that if you feel you
may have a problem,go for a class 2 medical. If you pass it great. If not
ask your ME if he thinks you could pass a class 3. If he says no, exam is
over. You did not fail a class 3 medical. You are a Sport Pilot. Larry
Huntley KF 4-1200,Soob,500+
anyone else have info on this approach to the dilemma some who've failed a
class 3 face? interesting idea?? john bowman, s. la bldg avid+ (fm
airdale) prairieville.
_____
From: Larry Huntley <asq@roadrunner.com>
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:24:23 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Sorry Bob,
What I meant was that in my case, if I didn't fly the Tripacer,"why bother"
,with the medical. I will just keep flying as a SP. You are correct that if
you fail the class 3,you cannot fly SP. If you fail the Class 3 and it is
because of something you can fix or be treated for and get reinstated,you
are home free. Next time around you can become a SP.
Another thought . An FAA person told me some time ago that if you feel you
may have a problem,go for a class 2 medical. If you pass it great. If not
ask your ME if he thinks you could pass a class 3. If he says no, exam is
over. You did not fail a class 3 medical. You are a Sport Pilot. Larry
Huntley KF 4-1200,Soob,500+
.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob <mailto:matronics@bob.brennan.name> Brennan
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:41 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Larry,
"why bother" was something I always thought was an available option, but it
seems that if you, or any PPL-rated pilot, decides to re-validate the
privileges with a class 3 medical; not only risks losing the privileges of
his PPL but also his Sport Pilot privileges and the ability to fly at all,
possibly forever.
That bothers me, but now that I am aware of it I will be careful. Just
posting so others are also aware, or can offer a more logical alternative.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huntley
Sent: 26 December 2008 11:31 am
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Bob,
I flew for a couple of years as a SP because I was flying a Fox and a
Champ. A friend dropped off his Pacer and asked me to exercise it
occasionally,so I went for a medical again.My Tripacer will be flying again
after a 3 yr rebuild,so I will maintain PP. Otherwise I would fly as SP
anyway ,so why bother.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob <mailto:matronics@bob.brennan.name> Brennan
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Randy,
Thanks for your response. I realise that as a PPL I do not need to apply to
fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid driver's license, and to
stay within the restrictions of the Sport Pilot privilege.
But my point was that it seems that if I discover I can no longer get a
class 3 medical by failing that medical then the choice to fly as a Sport
Pilot is no longer available to me. Ever. As long as the condition that
denied me the medical persists. Whereas pilots who chose to stop getting a
medical, and in effect "hide" the condition from the FAA, can continue to
fly.
Would you mind elaborating your own reason for flying as "Private flying
last 4 years as a sport pilot.."? I assume you chose to stop applying for a
medical rather than being denied?
bob
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Bob,
You don't have to "apply" for a sport pilot license. You just fly as a
sport pilot with a private license.
Randy
Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot..
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
>From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter:
--------------------------------
Question of the Week
My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a
sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this
forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport
pilot?
Answer:
The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of
an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for an FAA
medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA.
There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long
ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal took place.
The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long
ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid
medical certificate. If that is not the case you are required to re-apply
for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medical issued in order to
be able to take advantage of the possibility of using your driver's license
in lieu of the medical certificate in the future.
--------------------------------
So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and
being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate up-to-date;
that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical condition during
the medical exam the only choices are to correct the condition or stop
flying. However if the condition is discovered before the exam we can apply
for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it simply continue flying on a
PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition.
Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my
Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually
*avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of
responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport
Pilot license - that's already been covered here and is not my point.
My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I
rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and
switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably catch up with
me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing
the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes me to fail my
medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in effect
"hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as
long as I retain a driver's license.
Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your
condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an
AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is
there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my
medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be
the only way of doing it soon.
Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm
sure it's close to a lot of people on this list.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on
this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts!
List Contribution Web Site:
--> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
- The Kitfox-List Email Forum -
--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
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Message 28
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| Subject: | Engine Mount Fabrication |
A little change of pace here.
For those who have put alternative engines in their Kitfoxes or other
airplanes, I am curious about the techniques for fabricating the engine
mount. I know there are thrust offset angles etc. but how do you convert
this into an actual engine mount.? I am thinking of a mount for a Rotax 912
to a Model IV Kitfox that will allow a more desirable location for the oil
tank.
I'd appreciate any help.
Lowell Fitt
Cameron Park, CA
Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
Currently focusing on the Cockpit controlled rudder trim :-)
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License-class 2 gambit?? |
Before trying something like this I'd make dang sure the regulation
doesn't say that failing ANY FAA medical exam being disqualifying for
sport pilots.
Mike G.
N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ
On Dec 26, 2008, at 9:55 AM, john taylor <jtayloraaf@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Another thought . An FAA person told me some time ago that if you
> feel you may have a problem,go for a class 2 medical. If you pass it
> great. If not ask your ME if he thinks you could pass a class 3. If
> he says no, exam is over. You did not fail a class 3 medical. You
> are a Sport Pilot. Larry Huntley KF 4-1200,Soob,500+
>
> anyone else have info on this approach to the dilemma some who've
> failed a class 3 face? interesting idea?? john bowman, s. la bldg
> avid+ (fm airdale) prairieville.
>
> From: Larry Huntley <asq@roadrunner.com>
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:24:23 AM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
>
> Sorry Bob,
> What I meant was that in my case, if I didn't fly the Tripacer,"why
> bother" ,with the medical. I will just keep flying as a SP. You are
> correct that if you fail the class 3,you cannot fly SP. If you fail
> the Class 3 and it is because of something you can fix or be treated
> for and get reinstated,you are home free. Next time around you can
> become a SP.
> Another thought . An FAA person told me some time ago that if you
> feel you may have a problem,go for a class 2 medical. If you pass it
> great. If not ask your ME if he thinks you could pass a class 3. If
> he says no, exam is over. You did not fail a class 3 medical. You
> are a Sport Pilot. Larry Huntley KF 4-1200,Soob,500+
>
> .
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bob Brennan
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:41 AM
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
>
> Larry,
>
> "why bother" was something I always thought was an available option,
> but it seems that if you, or any PPL-rated pilot, decides to re-
> validate the privileges with a class 3 medical; not only risks
> losing the privileges of his PPL but also his Sport Pilot privileges
> and the ability to fly at all, possibly forever.
>
> That bothers me, but now that I am aware of it I will be careful.
> Just posting so others are also aware, or can offer a more logical
> alternative.
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> ] On Behalf Of Larry Huntley
> Sent: 26 December 2008 11:31 am
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
>
> Bob,
> I flew for a couple of years as a SP because I was flying a Fox
> and a Champ. A friend dropped off his Pacer and asked me to exercise
> it occasionally,so I went for a medical again.My Tripacer will be
> flying again after a 3 yr rebuild,so I will maintain PP. Otherwise I
> would fly as SP anyway ,so why bother.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bob Brennan
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:07 AM
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
>
> Randy,
>
> Thanks for your response. I realise that as a PPL I do not need to
> apply to fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid
> driver's license, and to stay within the restrictions of the Sport
> Pilot privilege.
>
> But my point was that it seems that if I discover I can no longer
> get a class 3 medical by failing that medical then the choice to fly
> as a Sport Pilot is no longer available to me. Ever. As long as the
> condition that denied me the medical persists. Whereas pilots who
> chose to stop getting a medical, and in effect "hide" the condition
> from the FAA, can continue to fly.
>
> Would you mind elaborating your own reason for flying as "Private
> flying last 4 years as a sport pilot."? I assume you chose to
stop
> applying for a medical rather than being denied?
>
> bob
>
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> ] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh
> Sent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
>
> Bob,
>
> You don=99t have to =9Capply=9D for a sport pilot
license. You just
> fly as a sport pilot with a private license.
>
>
> Randy
>
> Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot.
>
>
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> ] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
> Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
>
>
> =46rom the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter:
>
> --------------------------------
>
> Question of the Week
> My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot
> fly as a sport pilot using my driver's license for medical
> certification, but is this forever? Could I wait, say six months or
> one year, and then apply for sport pilot?
>
> Answer:
> The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in
> lieu of an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application
> for an FAA medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or
> withdrawn by the FAA. There is no time limit on that requirement, so
> it doesn't matter how long ago that denial, revocation, suspension
> or withdrawal took place.
>
> The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter
> how long ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special
> issuance of a valid medical certificate. If that is not the case you
> are required to re-apply for an FAA medical certificate and have a
> valid medical issued in order to be able to take advantage of the
> possibility of using your driver's license in lieu of the medical
> certificate in the future.
>
> --------------------------------
>
>
> So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL
> and being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate
> up-to-date; that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding
> medical condition during the medical exam the only choices are to
> correct the condition or stop flying. However if the condition is
> discovered before the exam we can apply for a Sport Pilot license,
> or as I understand it simply continue flying on a PPL under Sport
> Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition.
>
>
> Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically
> fly my Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway
> should I actually *avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date?
> Before I get a litany of responses on the unconnectedness of a Light
> Sport rated aircraft and a Sport Pilot license - that's already been
> covered here and is not my point.
>
>
> My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL
> (sometimes I rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical
> every 2 years, and switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions
> inevitably catch up with me. But the above quote seems to say that
> if I do it that way I risk losing the privilege to fly forever if
> the condition that causes me to fail my medical can't be corrected.
> However if I do not take a medical, in effect "hiding" a condition
> from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as long as I
> retain a driver's license.
>
>
> Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal
> your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I
> shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the
> application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the
> fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online before
> seeing the AME, and I think that might be the only way of doing it
> soon.
>
>
> Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in
> rules? I'm sure it's close to a lot of people on this list.
>
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
>
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
>
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
>
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
>
> Wrightsville Pa
>
>
> -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
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Message 30
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| Subject: | Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License-class 2 gambit?? |
Just to be clear - a 2nd class (commercial pilot) medical is stricter to get
than 3rd class (private pilot). 1st class (ATP) is of course the strictest.
I believe there are plenty of professional pilots that downgrade their job
from ATP to Commercial if/when they can't get a 1st class certificate, and
enjoy the privileges of being a private pilot if/when they can't qualify for
a 2nd class. The problem is there doesn't seem to be a "downgrade" path from
3rd class Private Pilot to Sport Pilot if you fail your 3rd class test. You
can "fail" the 3rd class requirements and still be a Sport Pilot, just don't
fail the exam! Most other "downgrades" occur when the pilot in fact does
fail the stricter test but meets the requirements of the next step down and
passes that test.
According to the wording of the FAA statement it appears that a pilot can
fail a 1st or 2nd class medical but if he can pass a 3rd class once he is ok
to be a Sport Pilot forever as long as he/she holds a valid drivers license.
Also - passing a 2nd class medical, I believe, includes all of the
privileges of a 3rd class already. So you can be an ATP or commercial pilot
during the week and a private pilot on weekends without multiple medicals.
The advice below is good - if you can pass a class 2 (a lot more expensive
though I'm sure) go for it, you already have class 3 included. If you fail
I'm sure any self-respecting AME will advise you if you qualify for a class
3 and issue that.
But I also think Mike's statement below is true - let's say you have a class
1 and fail and are told you can't even get a class 3, I suspect you then
also can't be a Sport Pilot. The trick is to find an AME that will not
document the failure, it's ok to let a medical of any class expire - as long
as it's valid when it does you can be a Sport Pilot.
Just like my dizzy friend with the "did you ever black out?" on his record,
you can't take a failure back even if it was justifiable. You can fight it
of course, but good luck with that!
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Gibbs
Sent: 26 December 2008 2:17 pm
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License-class 2 gambit??
Before trying something like this I'd make dang sure the regulation doesn't
say that failing ANY FAA medical exam being disqualifying for sport pilots.
Mike G.
N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ
On Dec 26, 2008, at 9:55 AM, john taylor <jtayloraaf@yahoo.com> wrote:
Another thought . An FAA person told me some time ago that if you feel you
may have a problem,go for a class 2 medical. If you pass it great. If not
ask your ME if he thinks you could pass a class 3. If he says no, exam is
over. You did not fail a class 3 medical. You are a Sport Pilot. Larry
Huntley KF 4-1200,Soob,500+
anyone else have info on this approach to the dilemma some who've failed a
class 3 face? interesting idea?? john bowman, s. la bldg avid+ (fm
airdale) prairieville.
_____
From: Larry Huntley <asq@roadrunner.com>
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:24:23 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Sorry Bob,
What I meant was that in my case, if I didn't fly the Tripacer,"why bother"
,with the medical. I will just keep flying as a SP. You are correct that if
you fail the class 3,you cannot fly SP. If you fail the Class 3 and it is
because of something you can fix or be treated for and get reinstated,you
are home free. Next time around you can become a SP.
Another thought . An FAA person told me some time ago that if you feel you
may have a problem,go for a class 2 medical. If you pass it great. If not
ask your ME if he thinks you could pass a class 3. If he says no, exam is
over. You did not fail a class 3 medical. You are a Sport Pilot. Larry
Huntley KF 4-1200,Soob,500+
.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob <mailto:matronics@bob.brennan.name> Brennan
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:41 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Larry,
"why bother" was something I always thought was an available option, but it
seems that if you, or any PPL-rated pilot, decides to re-validate the
privileges with a class 3 medical; not only risks losing the privileges of
his PPL but also his Sport Pilot privileges and the ability to fly at all,
possibly forever.
That bothers me, but now that I am aware of it I will be careful. Just
posting so others are also aware, or can offer a more logical alternative.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huntley
Sent: 26 December 2008 11:31 am
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Bob,
I flew for a couple of years as a SP because I was flying a Fox and a
Champ. A friend dropped off his Pacer and asked me to exercise it
occasionally,so I went for a medical again.My Tripacer will be flying again
after a 3 yr rebuild,so I will maintain PP. Otherwise I would fly as SP
anyway ,so why bother.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob <mailto:matronics@bob.brennan.name> Brennan
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Randy,
Thanks for your response. I realise that as a PPL I do not need to apply to
fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid driver's license, and to
stay within the restrictions of the Sport Pilot privilege.
But my point was that it seems that if I discover I can no longer get a
class 3 medical by failing that medical then the choice to fly as a Sport
Pilot is no longer available to me. Ever. As long as the condition that
denied me the medical persists. Whereas pilots who chose to stop getting a
medical, and in effect "hide" the condition from the FAA, can continue to
fly.
Would you mind elaborating your own reason for flying as "Private flying
last 4 years as a sport pilot.."? I assume you chose to stop applying for a
medical rather than being denied?
bob
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
Bob,
You don't have to "apply" for a sport pilot license. You just fly as a
sport pilot with a private license.
Randy
Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot..
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
>From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter:
--------------------------------
Question of the Week
My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a
sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this
forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport
pilot?
Answer:
The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of
an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for an FAA
medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA.
There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long
ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal took place.
The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long
ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid
medical certificate. If that is not the case you are required to re-apply
for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medical issued in order to
be able to take advantage of the possibility of using your driver's license
in lieu of the medical certificate in the future.
--------------------------------
So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and
being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate up-to-date;
that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical condition during
the medical exam the only choices are to correct the condition or stop
flying. However if the condition is discovered before the exam we can apply
for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it simply continue flying on a
PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition.
Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my
Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually
*avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of
responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport
Pilot license - that's already been covered here and is not my point.
My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I
rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and
switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably catch up with
me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing
the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes me to fail my
medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in effect
"hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as
long as I retain a driver's license.
Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your
condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an
AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is
there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my
medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be
the only way of doing it soon.
Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm
sure it's close to a lot of people on this list.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
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Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License |
Yes, please...I think we need to run them out of town on a rail...or
tar and feather them....or something drastic....of all the
nerve...telling stories on a builders help list...tsk, tsk, tsk...
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Dec 26, 2008, at 12:54 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:
> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>
> Would you like to hear a story about how some guys on this list
> tell stories
> Lynn? ;-)
>
> Fortunately most old guys like stories because it reminds them of,
> and gives
> them permission to tell, stories of their own!
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: 26 December 2008 12:35 pm
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License
>
>
>
>> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>>
>> Thanks for the reply Louie, let me be a little more specific. And
>> tell a
>> story, as older guys love to do ;-)
>
> WHAAAAAAAT???? ....where'd you hear that? : )
>
>
> Lynn Matteson
Message 32
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| Subject: | Engine Mount Fabrication |
Hi Lowell as I had no complete kit to work from I was forced to make a lot
. I used a stock cowl to locate the appropriate prop centerline. From ther
e I hung my engine from a 4x4 that extended forward from the overhead carry
through tubes. I also braced the engine from the bottom to maintain strai
ght and level. I had the tubes bolted to the engine and frame then tacked
the connecting tubes in place with a mig. At this point it is a foggy memor
ie=2C but I believe the thrustline is parralell to the floorboard. An airp
lane will fly fine straight=2C but the angle if you choose to add is usuall
y down and to the left or right depending on prop rotation. From the cockp
it view a clockwise rotation would need a slight right angle. I can add sh
ims if needed=2C but it feels fine. 100+ hours KF IV VW redrive
Ron NB Ore 541KF 117AF 67779 Ps glad to hear you are building something
> From: lcfitt@sbcglobal.net> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> Subject: Kitfo
x-List: Engine Mount Fabrication> Date: Fri=2C 26 Dec 2008 10:35:57 -0800>
> A little change of pace here.> > For those who have put alternative engin
es in their Kitfoxes or other > airplanes=2C I am curious about the techniq
ues for fabricating the engine > mount. I know there are thrust offset angl
es etc. but how do you convert > this into an actual engine mount.? I am th
inking of a mount for a Rotax 912 > to a Model IV Kitfox that will allow a
more desirable location for the oil > tank.> > I'd appreciate any help.> >
Lowell Fitt> Cameron Park=2C CA> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL> Currently focusing
=====> > >
_________________________________________________________________
It=92s the same Hotmail=AE. If by =93same=94 you mean up to 70% faster.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad
1_122008
Message 33
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| Subject: | Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking |
Lynn=2C That is easy to avoid. Build your own=2C now. As woodworkers my bro
ther and I have contemplated it. Probably never do it. Too many things to b
uild we can use right now.
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2CIL> From: lynnmatt@jps.net> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III
Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking> Date: Tue=2C 23 Dec 2008 13:41:18 -0500> To:
son <lynnmatt@jps.net>> > I figure I'll be in the casket thinking: "Now wha
t in hell prompted > them to build this thing like they did? Damn=2C if onl
y they had....."> > Lynn Matteson> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger> Jabi
ru 2200=2C #2062=2C 596+ hrs> Sensenich 62x46> flying again after rebuild
=2C and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > system=3B> also building a ne
w pair of snow skis> do not archive> > > > On Dec 23=2C 2008=2C at 12:13 PM
=2C patrick reilly wrote:> > I'll be trying to get out of the casket to bui
ld something=2C anything.> > > do not archive> > Pat Reilly> > Mod 3 582 Re
========================> >
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking |
Good idea, Pat....now I know what I can use this vacuum bagging stuff
for.
Yeah, probably as soon as I built a casket, I'd have to try it out
and the damn lid would fall shut on me.....I can hear my last words
now...."What dumb s__t didn't put an inside latch on this damn
thing...wait'l I get my hands on the guy who engineered this thing."
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Dec 26, 2008, at 5:04 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
> Lynn, That is easy to avoid. Build your own, now. As woodworkers my
> brother and I have contemplated it. Probably never do it. Too many
> things to build we can use right now.
>
> do not archive
>
> Pat Reilly
> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> Rockford,IL
>
> > From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking
> > Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 13:41:18 -0500
> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >
> >
> > I figure I'll be in the casket thinking: "Now what in hell prompted
> > them to build this thing like they did? Damn, if only they had....."
> >
> > Lynn Matteson
> > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> > Sensenich 62x46
> > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> > system;
> > also building a new pair of snow skis
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 23, 2008, at 12:13 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
> > > I'll be trying to get out of the casket to build something,
> anything.
> >
> > > do not archive
> > > Pat Reilly
> > > Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> > =============
> >
> >
> >
>
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> ===========================================================
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License |
Bob,
As a GA and airline pilot, I've had a special issuance (1st class) for
over 20 years and high blood pressure to boot. The FAA has made it
very easy for a pilot to get BP meds because they realized guys were
avoiding medical treatment of this disease out of fear of losing their
certificate. The consequences of not taking the meds were too
dangerous. Almost any BP med is now on the FAA approved list. They
only ask for a pilot to ascertain any side effects and ensure they
don't affect flying. (By the way, the same goes for sleep apnea.
It's not that difficult to regain certification, just $$, don't ask
how I know this:-)
I understand the salt, fat reduction, and the exercise regimen you
discussed, and that's great, but I've never heard any doctor recommend
aspirin 3 times a day to reduce BP. The side effects of aspirin are
serious; internal bleeding, gastric disorders, etc. I hope you're not
still doing that.
As for Sport Pilot, the feds were backed into a corner. Sport Pilot
was supported by the industry and touted by the FAA as a cost
reduction to get more people into flying, not as means for us old guys
to skirt medical certification conditions. Thus, if you know you have
a disqualifying condition, and the FAA doesn't, what can they do?
However, once they know, what can they do? Now you and they both
know your condition and they can't legally, turn their back to it, as
the rule is currently written. Also. it's not likely the rule will
change due to the time, cost, and other problems involved in fixing
it. It's sad it can't be fixed, but it is what it is.
I would recommend establishing a good relationship with your AME and
get a physical by him or her in advance,maybe 'within minutes':-) of
the flight physical. If you pass fine, if it doesn't, stop there. If
the problem is such that immediate action is required then so be it.
Better to live and not fly. Go get healed, come back and try again.
The relationship 'thing' can't be overemphasized. Most AME's want you
to fly and come back frequently for more flight physicals. They also
want you to be safe. Most will always work with you, if not, FIRE him
and go find another.
If you're a member, you can always call the EAA board of medical
advisors with your questions. They will give you an unbiased answer
and you can do this without fear of repercussion. The same is true
for AOPA. Use these folks, as they are there for you. Heck, your
dues are paying for this service.
Just my two cents.
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL )
DO NOT ARCHIVE
On Dec 26, 2008, at 10:55 AM, Bob Brennan wrote:
> So I cut out all salt and fat, took
> aspirin 3 times a day for a week, and went to my doctor to get a
> certified
> reading within their limits.
Message 36
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| Subject: | Engine Mount Fabrication |
Hey Lowell,
When I mounted my Geo to the M2, I went and bought a laser level from Home
Depot. I can't imagine doing this without this magical tool.
Basically, I mounted the engine with 2 degrees right thrust and 2 down. This
works very well in flight.
The vertical down thrust is easy - put a magnetic degree level on the prop
flange. I hung my engine from an engine hoist, and adjusted the straps to
get it tilted down.
The horizontal right thrust is harder, in that it requires public math. Se
here: http://www.gsal.org/tools/offset_calc.htm
This calculator will tell you how far LEFT to move the back of the engine to
get the prop flange centered with right thrust. It's just basic trig, but
the web app is easier for those of us who slept through high school.
Once set, build up your mount webing, and tack weld as you go. Actually, the
hardest part was checking the alignment 10,000 times as I was going. The
laser level is pure magic for this. I found a way to build up the mount
without having to fishmouth the tubing. This saved tons of time, and is
holding up very well in use. In fact, I dare say my method of joining tubes
is stronger.
Basically, Just hang the engine where you want it, and start fitting up
tubing, one piece at a time.
I hope this answers your question,
Bradley
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
> Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 1:36 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Engine Mount Fabrication
>
>
> A little change of pace here.
>
> For those who have put alternative engines in their Kitfoxes or other
> airplanes, I am curious about the techniques for fabricating the engine
> mount. I know there are thrust offset angles etc. but how do you convert
> this into an actual engine mount.? I am thinking of a mount for a Rotax
> 912
> to a Model IV Kitfox that will allow a more desirable location for the oil
> tank.
>
> I'd appreciate any help.
>
> Lowell Fitt
> Cameron Park, CA
> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
> Currently focusing on the Cockpit controlled rudder trim :-)
>
>
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | Kitfox-list: List Nazis |
All,
Deke, one of the original moderators, thought some of you
might have thought I categorized him as a "List Nazi" in my "Happy
Holidays" post. Nope, I was only referring to Mike and I, in our
current administration. Deke is not, and never was, a "List Nazi".
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan - Kitfox List ModeratorSan Diego, CA
K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade
100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox-list: List Nazis |
Guy,
You're running one of the best lists ever. The last thing you (or
Mike) are, are list nazi's. It's time to chill out and have a double
enhanced eggnog shooter:-)
It's been great, having you do, what you do, so well. (Time to break
into song here.) No apologies necessary - in fact give yourselves a
100% raise.
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
DO NOT ARCHIVE
On Dec 26, 2008, at 10:14 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
> All,
> Deke, one
> of the original moderators, thought some of you might have thought I
> categorized him as a "List Nazi" in my "Happy
> Holidays" post. Nope, I was only referring to Mike and I, in our
> current administration. Deke is not, and never was, a "List
> Nazi".
>
> Thanks,
>
> Guy Buchanan - Kitfox List ModeratorSan Diego, CA
> K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade
> 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar
>
>
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License |
Rick sez:
> I would recommend establishing a good relationship with your AME...
I agree completely. My AME is a former corporate jet pilot turned neurologist
turned AME. He WANTS me to pass my physical. He WANTS to keep me in the left
seat. If your doctor is busy looking for reasons to ground you or doesn't care
one way or the other, it's time for a new doctor.
Mike G.
N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox-list: List Nazis |
Rick sez:
> You're running one of the best lists ever. Thelast thing you (or Mike) are, are
list nazi's.
Thanks Rick!
Mike G.
Kitfox List Moderator
Phoenix, AZ
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Brake Problems |
Their was a funny hydraulic 'lock up' problem when you used dual MATCO brakes.
Make sure you do not have the old GRAY IRON looking kind. This problem was fixed
with the newer GOLD ANODIZED version.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221327#221327
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