Today's Message Index:
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0. 12:46 AM - What's My Contribution Used For? (Matt Dralle)
1. 08:35 AM - Re: BFR (Ralph B)
2. 09:16 AM - Re: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
3. 09:45 AM - Re: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? (Jerry Jones)
4. 10:03 AM - Re: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? (herb)
5. 10:06 AM - Re: BFR (pj.ladd)
6. 05:20 PM - Re: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? ()
7. 05:25 PM - Re: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? ()
8. 10:16 PM - Re: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? (Jerry Jones)
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Subject: | What's My Contribution Used For? |
Dear Listers,
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Message 1
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I took my Flight Review in my Kolbra with a CFI that knew very little about Light
Experimentals. I spent a lot of time talking about the aircraft and Sport Pilot
with him. He wanted a chance to fly it and it worked out well. We had a great
day for it too.
Ralph
--------
Ralph B
Original Firestar 447
N91493 E-AB
21 years flying it
Kolbra 912UL
N20386
0 years flying it
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214541#214541
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? |
Jerry/All
A direct drive high RPM engine just can't produce the same thrust per HP
as a reduction drive engine turning a big slow turning prop. I did a
fairly close direct comparison between direct drive and reduction drive
and the differences were drastically better with the reduction drive
engine. The VW engine runs at a slightly higher RPM (3200 @ cruise and
3500 @ climb) than a Jabiru so the differences may not be as drastic but
the differences are still significant. The primary consideration is that
a big slow turning prop is more efficient in turning horse power into
thrust than a small higher RPM prop. I have seen a 85 HP Jabiru powered
Kolb MKIIIX fly and was impressed with it's performance but I would
guess that this just adequate performance is due to a no compromise
highly tuned prop. Most of us redrive powered Kolb flyers get sufficient
performance that we tend to migrate more towards durability, smoothness,
convenience than ultimate performance.
I first flew my Kolb MKIIIC with a direct drive VW. The direct drive
engine was 2180cc Great Plaines engine turning a 60 X 28 two bladed wood
prop. I could only fly solo out of my strip and I would get a 65MKH
cruise at close to 80% power. After a few years of flying this engine I
switched to a almost identical reduction drive VW engine on the same
plane. The reduction drive is a 1.6 to one drive turning a three bladed
72 inch PowerFin. I gained two passenger performance, cruise speed
increased to 75MKH with 65-70% power, my oil/CHT temps lowered, my fuel
consumption lowered, and all this running the same engine RPMs as my
direct drive engine. Again my VW turns a bit more RPMs and my direct
drive prop might not have been finely tuned as it could have been but
the differences are still vast.
There is at least one kit airplane the offers a 120HP Jabiru as a option
rather than offering a reduction drive engine. The price of fuel will
likely return to the $4/ gallon price so I feel it would be best to get
the most performance we can out of the horse power we are feeding our
airplanes rather than increasing the HP to get the needed thrust.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry Jones
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or
jabiru?
Wellllll, there are some of us who would disagree that the 912 is
vastly superior...and that it provides much better performance.
Jerry
On Nov 15, 2008, at 11:34 AM, JetPilot wrote:
Grant,
The Rotax 912 is a vastly superior engine to the Jabiru in both
performance and reliability. The 912 turns the prop slower than the
Jabiru and results in much better performance on a Kolb. My numbers
are very close to John and RLaird.
Climb with a 912-S is about 1300 FPM at 5200 RPM, Stall at 30, and
slow cruise at 70 MPH burning just over3 GPH at 4200 RPM. I don't do
fast cruise, I have no numbers for that. The 912 is perfect for the
airplane...
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as
you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214379#214379
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Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? |
Rick,
I appreciate your informed input. I can't speak for Jabs/Rotax 4-
cycle engines on Kolbs, but I can on Titans. The arguments from both
sides, I've found, change nobody's mind, typically generating more
heat than light. That said, I had both a Jab 2200 and a 3300 on my
Titan and found performance comparable to reported performance of
comparable 912s (of course the 100 hp 912 had fewer horses than the
128 hp Jab), and had slightly less fuel burn. Every sport pilot here
in Madera flies behind/in front of a Jab, with one also flying behind
a 912S. I could be a little biased, I've owned five Jab engines, and
if buying another engine, that's prolly what I'd buy again, for
various reasons, but I wouldn't hesitate to own a Rotax either. For
sure, very early Jabs had teething problems and didn't produce near
the power claimed, but that was long ago and far, far in the past.
And, none of us have had to land out because of an engine problem.
Now, back to my cellar....
Jerry
On Nov 16, 2008, at 9:15 AM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:
> Jerry/All
>
> A direct drive high RPM engine just can't produce the same thrust
> per HP as a reduction drive engine turning a big slow turning prop.
> I did a fairly close direct comparison between direct drive and
> reduction drive and the differences were drastically better with
> the reduction drive engine. The VW engine runs at a slightly higher
> RPM (3200 @ cruise and 3500 @ climb) than a Jabiru so the
> differences may not be as drastic but the differences are still
> significant. The primary consideration is that a big slow turning
> prop is more efficient in turning horse power into thrust than a
> small higher RPM prop. I have seen a 85 HP Jabiru powered Kolb
> MKIIIX fly and was impressed with it's performance but I would
> guess that this just adequate performance is due to a no compromise
> highly tuned prop. Most of us redrive powered Kolb flyers get
> sufficient performance that we tend to migrate more towards
> durability, smoothness, convenience than ultimate performance.
>
> I first flew my Kolb MKIIIC with a direct drive VW. The direct
> drive engine was 2180cc Great Plaines engine turning a 60 X 28 two
> bladed wood prop. I could only fly solo out of my strip and I would
> get a 65MKH cruise at close to 80% power. After a few years of
> flying this engine I switched to a almost identical reduction drive
> VW engine on the same plane. The reduction drive is a 1.6 to one
> drive turning a three bladed 72 inch PowerFin. I gained two
> passenger performance, cruise speed increased to 75MKH with 65-70%
> power, my oil/CHT temps lowered, my fuel consumption lowered, and
> all this running the same engine RPMs as my direct drive engine.
> Again my VW turns a bit more RPMs and my direct drive prop might
> not have been finely tuned as it could have been but the
> differences are still vast.
>
> There is at least one kit airplane the offers a 120HP Jabiru as a
> option rather than offering a reduction drive engine. The price of
> fuel will likely return to the $4/ gallon price so I feel it would
> be best to get the most performance we can out of the horse power
> we are feeding our airplanes rather than increasing the HP to get
> the needed thrust.
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jerry Jones
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 5:52 PM
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or
> jabiru?
>
> Wellllll, there are some of us who would disagree that the 912 is
> vastly superior...and that it provides much better performance.
>
> Jerry
>
> On Nov 15, 2008, at 11:34 AM, JetPilot wrote:
>
>>
>> Grant,
>>
>> The Rotax 912 is a vastly superior engine to the Jabiru in both
>> performance and reliability. The 912 turns the prop slower than
>> the Jabiru and results in much better performance on a Kolb. My
>> numbers are very close to John and RLaird.
>>
>> Climb with a 912-S is about 1300 FPM at 5200 RPM, Stall at 30,
>> and slow cruise at 70 MPH burning just over3 GPH at 4200 RPM. I
>> don't do fast cruise, I have no numbers for that. The 912
>> is perfect for the airplane...
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> --------
>> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast
>> as you could have !!!
>>
>> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214379#214379
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> < 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>(And Get Some
>> AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
>> November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on
>> < 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>this year's
>> Terrific Free Incentive Gifts!
>> List Contribution Web Site:
>> < 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>--> http://
>> www.matronics.com/contribution
>> < 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>Thank you for your
>> generous support!
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> - The Kolb-List Email Forum -
>> < Un List as such utilities many margin-top:the>
>> <>
>> < 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>--> http://
>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution Dralle, List ===========
>> Features Chat, FAQ, href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-
>> List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List the Web
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>
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Subject: | Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? |
Jerry
Seems that the Titan cannot run a long enough prop to make the
912 a good alternative? Basically...Jabs do well on clean planes.
titans,Sonex etc.....Redriven 912's are well suited to any plane
where they can swing a long and more efficient prop.. Herb
ps a Jab is absolutely unsuited to a Kolb MkIII or Cobra...
At 11:45 AM 11/16/2008, you wrote:
>Rick,
>
>I appreciate your informed input. I can't speak for Jabs/Rotax
>4-cycle engines on Kolbs, but I can on Titans. The arguments from
>both sides, I've found, change nobody's mind, typically generating
>more heat than light. That said, I had both a Jab 2200 and a 3300
>on my Titan and found performance comparable to reported performance
>of comparable 912s (of course the 100 hp 912 had fewer horses than
>the 128 hp Jab), and had slightly less fuel burn. Every sport pilot
>here in Madera flies behind/in front of a Jab, with one also flying
>behind a 912S. I could be a little biased, I've owned five Jab
>engines, and if buying another engine, that's prolly what I'd buy
>again, for various reasons, but I wouldn't hesitate to own a Rotax
>either. For sure, very early Jabs had teething problems and didn't
>produce near the power claimed, but that was long ago and far, far
>in the past. And, none of us have had to land out because of an
>engine problem.
>
>Now, back to my cellar....
>
>Jerry
>
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If that was the only plane there was to fly, I would walk. (Calm down
Pat)
Larry, I am calm. I am calm.
Of course never having flown a Firefly I couldn`t possible comment. On
the other hand.....
Cheers
Pat
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? |
> Wellllll, there are some of us who would disagree that the 912 is vastly superior...and
that it provides much better performance.
>
>
> Jerry
Does Jerry have a Jab powered Kolb?
I have a 912 powered Kolb and have had a chance to compare performance between
John Williamson's Jab powered Kolbra and my mkIII. I said "a chance", but that
translates into many hours and days flying long cross country flights together
when John W had the Jab. To be quite honest, there was no comparison, except
in cruise flight. Cruise flight was comparable. Takeoff and climb, the 912
powered mkIII ate the Jab powered Kolbra up.
2005, I met John W in Canon City, CO, enroute to our annual flying at Monument
Valley. John had upgraded to a 912ULS. He led me out of Canon City and I had
to keep asking him to slow down and wait for me. We were on our way to Leadville,
CO. Really irritated me that John W's Kolbra outperformed my mkIII.
I have known other direct drive Kolbs in the past. Performance sucked with Jab,
Subaru, and VW. Haven't heard from our BMW powered Kolbs lately, but I don't
think they will blow the doors off our 912 powered Kolbs either.
Any time you all want to go wing to wing and see which system outperforms which,
Hauck is more than ready. ;-)
john h
Mesquite, NV
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? |
---- Jerry Jones <maderah2@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Rick,
>
> I appreciate your informed input. I can't speak for Jabs/Rotax 4-
> cycle engines on Kolbs, but I can on Titans. >
> Jerry
>
Jerry:
There is no comparison between a Titan and a Kolb.
Direct drive may work on a Titan, but it does not work on Kolbs.
Would have saved some typing had you said you were a Titan guy and not a Kolb guy.
;-)
Take care,
john h
Mesquite, NV until tomorrow...
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Performance of the mark III with 912 or jabiru? |
John, no disagreement with you here about the difference between a
Kolb and a Titan. Was just responding to an imprecise, unqualified
statement. Like I've said previously, wish I still owned by 503 DCDI
Firestar, but it is no more. The new owner rolled it up in a ball
when his tail caught the top wire of a barbed wire fence. That said,
me thinks you too may be a bit imprecise when you say direct drive
doesn't work on a Kolb. I've seen them work on even draggier
pushers. How about won't work as well as geared engines?
Okay. That's it. Now back to my hole until I see my shadow...
Jerry
On Nov 16, 2008, at 5:25 PM, <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
<jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> ---- Jerry Jones <maderah2@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Rick,
>>
>> I appreciate your informed input. I can't speak for Jabs/Rotax 4-
>> cycle engines on Kolbs, but I can on Titans. >
>> Jerry
>>
>
>
> Jerry:
>
> There is no comparison between a Titan and a Kolb.
>
> Direct drive may work on a Titan, but it does not work on Kolbs.
>
> Would have saved some typing had you said you were a Titan guy and
> not a Kolb guy. ;-)
>
> Take care,
>
> john h
> Mesquite, NV until tomorrow...
>
>
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