Kolb-List Digest Archive

Tue 05/12/09


Total Messages Posted: 38



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:10 AM - Re: MV (frank.goodnight)
     2. 03:45 AM - Re: Need Rotax 912 (Thom Riddle)
     3. 04:10 AM - Re: M3X pictures,numbers (Thom Riddle)
     4. 04:20 AM - Heading West (John Hauck)
     5. 04:28 AM - Re: Heading West (loseyf@comcast.net)
     6. 05:31 AM - Re: Re: Need Rotax 912 (Nelson, Craig)
     7. 05:42 AM - Re: Re: M3X pictures,numbers (Eugene Zimmerman)
     8. 06:32 AM - lawn chairs for mv (b young)
     9. 07:10 AM - Re: M3X pictures,numbers (lucien)
    10. 07:44 AM - Re: Re: M3X pictures,numbers (Richard & Martha Neilsen)
    11. 08:07 AM - 68" WD 3 blade FS (lucien)
    12. 08:25 AM - Re: Re: M3X pictures,numbers (pj.ladd)
    13. 08:44 AM - Re: Re: M3X pictures,numbers (pj.ladd)
    14. 10:32 AM - Re: M3X pictures,numbers (JetPilot)
    15. 10:32 AM - Re: Re: Need Rotax 912 (Ron)
    16. 10:38 AM - Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS (Ron)
    17. 11:03 AM - MV - Wish I Could Be There (TheWanderingWench)
    18. 11:20 AM - Re: Re: M3X pictures,numbers (Larry Cottrell)
    19. 11:20 AM - Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS (robert bean)
    20. 12:21 PM - Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS (Mike Welch)
    21. 01:23 PM - Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS (robert bean)
    22. 01:37 PM - Re: Another cross country - Vidalia AirShow (grantr)
    23. 01:52 PM - Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS (Michael Sharp)
    24. 01:52 PM - videos (william sullivan)
    25. 02:08 PM - Re: videos (JetPilot)
    26. 02:11 PM - Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS (robert bean)
    27. 02:16 PM - Re: videos (william sullivan)
    28. 02:42 PM - Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS (Dana Hague)
    29. 02:42 PM - Re: videos (Dana Hague)
    30. 04:15 PM - Re: lawn chairs for mv (Dave Rains)
    31. 04:50 PM - Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS (Mike Welch)
    32. 06:14 PM - Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS (robert bean)
    33. 07:47 PM - Gaggle of 5 in Sherman, TX (John Bickham)
    34. 07:50 PM - Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS (Ron)
    35. 07:51 PM - Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS (Ron)
    36. 07:55 PM - Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS (Ron)
    37. 08:53 PM - Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS (lucien)
    38. 09:14 PM - Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS (b young)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:10:21 AM PST US
    From: "frank.goodnight" <frank.goodnight@att.net>
    Subject: Re: MV
    I live in Brownsville TX 1540 miles. Frank Goodnight Ftrestar On May 11, 2009, at 9:42 PM, ElleryWeld@aol.com wrote: > I would make it one of my plans to attend the MV Gathering if I > didn't live at the other end of the Country in Maine > > > Ellery in Maine > > In a message dated 5/10/2009 10:38:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, by0ung@brigham.net > writes: > > I encourage everyone that has a true interest in Kolbs to make the > effort to > > join us. Come as you are: fly, drive, or walk. > > john h > mkIII - One day and a wake up! > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Don't think I would encourage walking,,, long way between watering > holes. > > Boyd > Do not ========================; the ties Day > ================================================ - > MATRONICS WEB FORUMS > ================================================ - List > Contribution Web Site sp; > ================================================== > > > An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! > >


    Message 2


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    Time: 03:45:47 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Need Rotax 912
    From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr@gmail.com>
    Yes, Craig. Can you quantify that "price is right?" I don't need an engine at the moment but would like to know what a used 912UL might be on the market for. When we finish wearing out ours, we may want to sell it and replace it with a new one rather than overhaul. Depends on the economics. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY http://riddletr.googlepages.com/sportpilot-cfi http://riddletr.googlepages.com/a%26pmechanix A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works. - John Gaule Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243679#243679


    Message 3


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    Time: 04:10:46 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers
    From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr@gmail.com>
    Mike, In general, you are correct, but not for every airplane. On some airplanes the "no flaps" position is with flaps actually reflexed several degrees and their ROC is less with flaps in this position than with the first flap position of 10-15 degrees. The "no flaps" position on these airplanes is for improved cruise performance, and not a good choice for take-off, nor recommended by the manufacturer. I can't remember which one it was but read recently the operators manual for one of the new SLSAs gave best glide performance with first notch of flaps. This might have been the Pipestrel, but not sure. I've never owned a Kolb with flaps, only two early Firestars which didn't have flaps so I can't say with first hand experience about flaps on any Kolb. But do know that I get better initial ROC with 10 degrees of flaps on our RANS S6-S at its best climb speed than with zero flaps at the best climb speed for zero flaps. The two best climb speeds are different. Normal take-off is with 10 degrees of flaps. Soft field take-off is with 20 degrees and then slowly reduce to 10 degrees in ground effect. The ground roll difference with 20 degrees is dramatic. I've done a few take-offs with zero flaps but the ground roll is a LOT longer and I like to keep my tires in the air as much as possible to reduce wear since I operate off of a paved runway. Bottom line is not all airplanes use the same technique for best performance, so your generalization about very light wing loading airplanes is not completely valid. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY http://riddletr.googlepages.com/sportpilot-cfi http://riddletr.googlepages.com/a%26pmechanix A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works. - John Gaule Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243681#243681


    Message 4


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    Time: 04:20:50 AM PST US
    From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Heading West
    Morning Gang: Looks like I am almost ready to load the truck and head out 3 miles to Gantt International Airport for departure to Monument Valley, Utah. Been looking forward to this flight since the doldrums of winter. I have 603 miles to fly today. Will take about 8 flight hours and 40 gal of fuel to get there. Will be meeting up with the rest of my flight in Sherman, TX, tonight. President Obama has decided to arrive in Albuquerque, NM, shortly after our planned arrival. Thus a change in our plans, possibly, of RON with Jan and Mike Marker in Los Lunas, NM. We'll have to deal with the Albuquerque TFR as we get closer to that area. If we go into Los Lunas Wednesday, we won't be able to depart until after 1245 MDT Thursday. Wednesday is going to be windy, the wrong way of course, so we may not make Los Lunas as planned. We may divert north to Santa Fe, Aztec, Ship Rock, Monument Valley. All depends on how things fall out. Wish everyone could come along on this flight. Take care, john h mkIII


    Message 5


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    Time: 04:28:08 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Heading West
    From: loseyf@comcast.net
    God's speed! Fran Losey ------Original Message------ From: John Hauck Sender: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: May 12, 2009 7:19 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Heading West Morning Gang: Looks like I am almost ready to load the truck and head out 3 miles to Gantt International Airport for departure to Monument Valley, Utah. Been looking forward to this flight since the doldrums of winter. I have 603 miles to fly today. Will take about 8 flight hours and 40 gal of fuel to get there. Will be meeting up with the rest of my flight in Sherman, TX, tonight. President Obama has decided to arrive in Albuquerque, NM, shortly after our planned arrival. Thus a change in our plans, possibly, of RON with Jan and Mike Marker in Los Lunas, NM. We'll have to deal with the Albuquerque TFR as we get closer to that area. If we go into Los Lunas Wednesday, we won't be able to depart until after 1245 MDT Thursday. Wednesday is going to be windy, the wrong way of course, so we may not make Los Lunas as planned. We may divert north to Santa Fe, Aztec, Ship Rock, Monument Valley. All depends on how things fall out. Wish everyone could come along on this flight. Take care, john h mkIII Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


    Message 6


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    Time: 05:31:59 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Need Rotax 912
    From: "Nelson, Craig" <craig.nelson@heraeus.com>
    Call merl Williams 602 206 0502 He is the poloy tone dealer in az and does a lot with Kit fox I just saw the engine 2 weeks ago Craig Nelson AAS CDT Technical Manager Heraeus 300 Heraeus Way South Bend, IN. 46614 Direct: 623-764-0680 Craig.Nelson@heraeus.com P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Denny Rowe Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 7:08 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Need Rotax 912 how right? > I know of a 912 that is for sale that has just been completely gone > through by a dealer and the price is right > Uncle craig > Don't archive > > Craig Nelson AAS CDT > Technical Manager > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 05:42:19 AM PST US
    From: Eugene Zimmerman <etzimm@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers
    Mike, There is one Kolb peculiarity that you have not addressed in your discussion on flap use. On a typical Kolb takeoff with their typical steep climb out, and with their high thrust line effecting a strong nose down force, there is a very serious problem that must be overcome IMMEDIATELY in the event of a SUDDEN ENGINE FAILURE in that steep climb out attitude. To get the nose down "enough to avoid a stall" will require all the nose down force the kolb elevator is capable of producing in that unique situation. Flaps on a Kolb have a very positive increase in nose over authority, which greatly needed at that moment. I almost always use 5 to 10 degrees of flaps on takeoff specifically for this reason. I encourage every Kolb pilot to experiment with that situation, at a safe altitude sometime, and you will discover the danger I am concerned about, should it happen near the ground. Gene Z On May 11, 2009, at 10:41 PM, JetPilot wrote: >> > > Maybe you do not realize this Pat, but have been an airline pilot > for many years, I know where the flaps are when I takeoff in an > airliner as I set them myself and have an indicator that tells me > exactly where they are [Wink] To answer your question as to Why > do we always use flaps for takeoff in an airliner, because there are > tire limit speeds which we would be exceeded on takeoff without > flaps, any runway under 15,000 feet long would be to short for > takeoff in an airliner without flaps, and because takeoff without > flaps is prohibited on this class of airplane. None of these is an > issue with small propeller driven airplanes most people here fly, so > the procedure that works for a 200,000 airplane is not the same as a > Kolb or a Cessna... Even in a Jet Airliner we use the minimum flaps > we can for takeoff, unless the runway is very short, Icy, or other > special consideration in which case we use more. The less flaps we > use for takeoff, the safer we are and the better our! > performance is... Even in the airliners I fly, climb and > performance increases a LOT up as soon as the flaps are retracted > which is something we do as soon as speed permits. > > The appropriate use of flaps is something that every pilot should > know and it is worth taking the time to study. In small Cessnas and > Kolbs, takeoff on a short, soft, or even rough runway, one notch of > flaps is desirable to get the tires off the runway as soon as > possible. You will pay a big price for getting off the ground > sooner though with much reduced performance and climb until they are > retracted. In a Kolb that accelerates like a slingshot, if you get > the flaps retracted very quickly after getting off the ground, you > will have a very small performance hit, maybe so small that it is > not even noticeable. If you leave the flaps down for your climb to > 1000 feet, you will be sacrificing a lot of performance. Flaps down > does bring you off the ground quicker, and lowers your stall speed, > but they also degrade your performance in the vast majority of > airplanes. > > For takeoff on normal runways with adequate length, zero flaps is > the best procedure for the airplanes we fly. With Zero flaps your: > > Rate of climb will be higher > You will be climbing at a faster speed which gives you more time to > react in case of engine failure. > You will bleed speed less quickly in event of an engine failure. > You will glide better in the event of an engine failure. > If you have an engine failure at a the same point in time after > takeoff with no flaps, you will be higher when it happens, which > gives you more options. > > Mike > > -------- > &quot;NO FEAR&quot; - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as > you could have !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243652#243652 > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 06:32:37 AM PST US
    From: "b young" <by0ung@brigham.net>
    Subject: lawn chairs for mv
    For those that may be driving to MV,,, supposing you haven't left yet. please throw in a couple extra lawn chairs if possible for those of us who cant fit them in our planes. Boyd Young Kolb MkIII C 560+ hours and counting Brigham City Utah.


    Message 9


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    Time: 07:10:21 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers
    From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
    etzimm(at)gmail.com wrote: > Mike, > > There is one Kolb peculiarity that you have not addressed in your > discussion on flap use. > > On a typical Kolb takeoff with their typical steep climb out, and > with their high thrust line effecting a strong nose down force, there > is a very serious problem that must be overcome IMMEDIATELY in the > event of a SUDDEN ENGINE FAILURE in that steep climb out attitude. > To get the nose down "enough to avoid a stall" will require all the > nose down force the kolb elevator is capable of producing in that > unique situation. > > Flaps on a Kolb have a very positive increase in nose over authority, > which greatly needed at that moment. > > I almost always use 5 to 10 degrees of flaps on takeoff specifically > for this reason. > > I encourage every Kolb pilot to experiment with that situation, at a > safe altitude sometime, and you will discover the danger I am > concerned about, should it happen near the ground. > > Gene Z > > Concur.... I practiced this in my FSII a fair bit and the results were pretty dramatic. I was surprised at how much altitude I needed to have to be able to recover in a climbout at my lower climb speed. I figure it was at least 100'? So I usually would lift off but fly in ground effect to close to cruise and climb out flat like that to about 100'. Then I'd pull back and climb out at a slower climb speed for a higher ROC. It didn't have flaps of course, but with that big flat bottom airfoil it had so much lift already I couldn't imagine needing more...... LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243708#243708


    Message 10


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    Time: 07:44:05 AM PST US
    From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers
    Mike That was well said. Keep those great comments coming. I use flaps to get off the ground only, within 20' of altitude I retract them to get better climb. My Kolb has a very low angle of attack on the ground even with the tail down. Homer designed it this way to make sure we have plenty of flying speed before we clear the ground. I use one notch of flaps to increase the angle of attack to get me off my draggy grass runway quicker. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 10:41 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: M3X pictures,numbers > > > pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: >> Flaps do reduce stall, but they add more drag than anything, so you >> will >> be higher more quickly without flaps on >> >> > takeoff. >> >> > >> > >> >> Where did you get that from?. Try looking out of the window on takeoff >> next >> time you are on a trip.Well, well, well Just look. They have the flaps >> down. >> I wonder why they do that? >> >> Pat > > > Maybe you do not realize this Pat, but have been an airline pilot for many > years, I know where the flaps are when I takeoff in an airliner as I set > them myself and have an indicator that tells me exactly where they are > [Wink] To answer your question as to Why do we always use flaps for > takeoff in an airliner, because there are tire limit speeds which we would > be exceeded on takeoff without flaps, any runway under 15,000 feet long > would be to short for takeoff in an airliner without flaps, and because > takeoff without flaps is prohibited on this class of airplane. None of > these is an issue with small propeller driven airplanes most people here > fly, so the procedure that works for a 200,000 airplane is not the same as > a Kolb or a Cessna... Even in a Jet Airliner we use the minimum flaps we > can for takeoff, unless the runway is very short, Icy, or other special > consideration in which case we use more. The less flaps we use for > takeoff, the safer we are and the better our! > performance is... Even in the airliners I fly, climb and performance > increases a LOT up as soon as the flaps are retracted which is something > we do as soon as speed permits. > > The appropriate use of flaps is something that every pilot should know and > it is worth taking the time to study. In small Cessnas and Kolbs, takeoff > on a short, soft, or even rough runway, one notch of flaps is desirable to > get the tires off the runway as soon as possible. You will pay a big > price for getting off the ground sooner though with much reduced > performance and climb until they are retracted. In a Kolb that > accelerates like a slingshot, if you get the flaps retracted very quickly > after getting off the ground, you will have a very small performance hit, > maybe so small that it is not even noticeable. If you leave the flaps > down for your climb to 1000 feet, you will be sacrificing a lot of > performance. Flaps down does bring you off the ground quicker, and lowers > your stall speed, but they also degrade your performance in the vast > majority of airplanes. > > For takeoff on normal runways with adequate length, zero flaps is the best > procedure for the airplanes we fly. With Zero flaps your: > > Rate of climb will be higher > You will be climbing at a faster speed which gives you more time to react > in case of engine failure. > You will bleed speed less quickly in event of an engine failure. > You will glide better in the event of an engine failure. > If you have an engine failure at a the same point in time after takeoff > with no flaps, you will be higher when it happens, which gives you more > options. > > Mike > > -------- > &quot;NO FEAR&quot; - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you > could have !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243652#243652 > > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 08:07:12 AM PST US
    Subject: 68" WD 3 blade FS
    From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
    Hi all, I'm putting my 68" WD up for sale. PM me for details here at matronics or at my lstavenhagen@hotmail.com address. Do not archive LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243718#243718


    Message 12


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    Time: 08:25:35 AM PST US
    From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers
    Maybe you do not realize this Pat, but I have been an airline pilot for many years, I >> Hi Mike, when I am a bit sarcastic I certainly know the right target to pick! An airline pilot forsooth. Nevertheless your original statement "Flaps reduce stall ,but they add more drag than anything" is not strictly accurate. AT LOW ANGLES flaps increase lift much more than they produce drag, The stall speed reduces BECAUSE they produce more lift. As the angle of the flap increases the drag component goes up until the wing produces more drag than lift and the plane descends at a steeper angle for the same flying speed. I didn`t know about the tyre speed limit although what you say makes sense. It is not something which concerns the average GA pilot but surely flaps were introduced to do their thing long before any consideration of tyre speed came into the picture. The basic problem as I see it, and I am sure you will correct me, is that you need a different airofoil for high lift/low speed flight than for high speed. All that flaps (and the leading edge droops) do is produce a low speed, high lift section with a sharp camber. This shape is less efficient as the speed increase and a flatter shape will produce the same lift .You therefore put the flaps away. Your comment that you `reduce the flap as soon as speed permits` bears this out. The airspeed dictates the airofoil camber to produce a specified amount of lift. As the speed goes up the same lift is produced by a flatter camber. If you reduce the camber before the proper airspeed is reached then you will fall out of the sky. Many years ago we had a BAC 111 do just that. The captain, by mistake, retracted the leading edge flaps while still in the climb out from Heathrow and piled in. I normally take off with first notch of flap, which at around 50/55 will give the best rate of climb and produce height quickly. At 500ft I clean up the wing and allow the speed to build. This REDUCES the angle at which I climb but I travel further. It is a nice balance between having a little extra height or a little extra speed in the case of engine failure. Take your pick. Your point about "take off with no flaps will see you higher in the same amount of time in the case of engine quit" I believe is moot. That will need working out and/or plotting on a graph. You will certainly be farther from the field but I do not think you will be higher. Regarding `gliding better` in the case of engine loss, define `better`. Anyone who has flown gliders will know that there is a speed for `farther` and another for flying longer. Can`t remember it all now but it has to do with the L/D coeffecient. Incidentally I had a little indicator in my Challenger to show me the angle of the flaps. Airline pilots don`t have all the gismoz. Cheers Pat


    Message 13


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    Time: 08:44:43 AM PST US
    From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers
    within 20' of altitude I retract them to get better climb.>> Hi, define `better`. travelling farther faster or climbing more quickly. See my long and boring reply to Mike. This has all the making of a thread that will run and run. Pat


    Message 14


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    Time: 10:32:22 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers
    From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
    pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: > > > I normally take off with first notch of flap, which at around 50/55 will > give the best rate of climb and produce height quickly. At 500ft I clean up > the wing and allow the speed to build. This REDUCES the angle at which I > climb but I travel further. It is a nice balance between having a little > extra height or a little extra speed in the case of engine failure. Take > your pick. > > Pat For a normal runway, I don't use any flaps in my Kolb. If the runway was short, rough, or soft, I think Rick's method of retracting the flaps at 20 feet is the best. Rick gets the best of both worlds this technique, he gets off the ground a bit quicker, and then retracts the flaps quickly enough that he does not lose any of his climb performance. I disagree that the first notch of flap will give you the best rate of climb. You should test a climb to 500 feet with a notch of flaps as you do now, and then do a takeoff without flaps and time how long it takes to get to 500 feet at best rate of climb speed. I will also do this the next time I fly and post my results. This is something that easy to do and can settle this issue very easily since we don't have performance graphs. One thing I have done a lot of is pulling the power off abruptly in a 60 MPH full power climb to simulate sudden engine failure on takeoff, my MK III easily has enough down elevator shove the nose over very quickly when it happens. It is nothing short of amazing how quickly I need to react given the steep climb angle I have with the 912-S. This is something that EVERYONE here should try no matter which Kolb they fly, having the practice and ability to do this properly could really save your life if you lose your engine after takeoff. Do this at a safe altitude, and dont be shy, really jerk the power off quickly, if you want to simulate a sudden engine failure, it is a real eye opener in a Kolb [Shocked] As far as climbout, my MK III with the 912-S with its high thrust line and forward CG when I have passengers needs quite a bit of up elevator as it is to overcome the high thrust and forward CG on takeoff. The last thing I want is to need even more up elevator to overcome the pitch down one notch of flaps would create. I like to climb at best rate of climb, that gets me the highest the fastest. Best rate of climb in my Kolb is faster without flaps than it is with flaps, it is around 55 to 60 MPH in my Kolb, so I climb at 60 MPH, at anything over 60 I see the climb start to fall off. Having the extra speed would help a lot by giving me more time to push the nose over in case of an engine failure. Being slower and having the extra drag of flaps is exactly what I don't want in case of sudden engine failure on climbout. Again, this is easy enough to try at altitude. I hope you give these things a try, and post your observations on them. I will try these thing the next time I am up, maybe tomorrow, although it will be a tough sell to my wife as I have flown my Kolb the last 6 days in a row :D Mike -------- &quot;NO FEAR&quot; - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243744#243744


    Message 15


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    Time: 10:32:27 AM PST US
    From: Ron <captainron1@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Need Rotax 912
    Just called the fellow he wants $14,900. When are you headed up there Craig? I may join the flight for a while at least, I am not sure if I can fly that slow for a long while. last time we did that I had my stall horn on most of the time. Ron @ KFHU =================== ---- "Nelson wrote: ============ Call merl Williams 602 206 0502 He is the poloy tone dealer in az and does a lot with Kit fox I just saw the engine 2 weeks ago Craig Nelson AAS CDT Technical Manager Heraeus 300 Heraeus Way South Bend, IN. 46614 Direct: 623-764-0680 Craig.Nelson@heraeus.com P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Denny Rowe Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 7:08 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Need Rotax 912 how right? > I know of a 912 that is for sale that has just been completely gone > through by a dealer and the price is right > Uncle craig > Don't archive > > Craig Nelson AAS CDT > Technical Manager > > -- kugelair.com


    Message 16


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    Time: 10:38:20 AM PST US
    From: Ron <captainron1@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS
    I need a prop for my Geo motor, but have not looked into the rotation direction if it's the same as a rotax. Bob Bean do you know if I can use his prop on my 1.3 Geo motor? Ron @ KFHU ============= ---- lucien <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com> wrote: ============ Hi all, I'm putting my 68" WD up for sale. PM me for details here at matronics or at my lstavenhagen@hotmail.com address. Do not archive LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243718#243718 -- kugelair.com


    Message 17


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    Time: 11:03:05 AM PST US
    From: TheWanderingWench <thewanderingwench@yahoo.com>
    Subject: MV - Wish I Could Be There
    I've resisted posting this until now - I've been in deep denial that I wasn 't going to be able to make the MV fly-in this year. It seemed like the tim ing was perfect - hit the fly-in on the way home from -Sun n Fun. But we made such good time from Florida that we were in Los Lunas days ago - and k new we couldn't just fritter away an entire week for the fly-in. Neither my husband nor Randy's wife would have tolerated it. So - we're now in Nampa, ID and only a day+ flight from home. I wish you al l the most fun ever at MV - and with the crew that's assembling, looks like it's going to be a great, great fly-in. Have one of Kathi LaVasseur's cook ies and enjoy! Regretfully, Arty www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com/uladventure2009.htm =0A =0A"Life's a daring adventure or nothing" =0A Helen Keller =0A =0A"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."


    Message 18


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    Time: 11:20:26 AM PST US
    From: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell@fmtcblue.com>
    Subject: Re: M3X pictures,numbers
    ----- Original Message ----- From: JetPilot To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 11:31 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: M3X pictures,numbers pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: > > > I normally take off with first notch of flap, which at around 50/55 will > give the best rate of climb and produce height quickly. At 500ft I clean up > the wing and allow the speed to build. This REDUCES the angle at which I > climb but I travel further. It is a nice balance between having a little > extra height or a little extra speed in the case of engine failure. Take > your pick. > > Pat "Mike Said" For a normal runway, I don't use any flaps in my Kolb. If the runway was short, rough, or soft, I think Rick's method of retracting the flaps at 20 feet is the best. Rick gets the best of both worlds this technique, he gets off the ground a bit quicker, and then retracts the flaps quickly enough that he does not lose any of his climb performance. I disagree that the first notch of flap will give you the best rate of climb. You should test a climb to 500 feet with a notch of flaps as you do now, and then do a takeoff without flaps and time how long it takes to get to 500 feet at best rate of climb speed. I will also do this the next time I fly and post my results. This is something that easy to do and can settle this issue very easily since we don't have performance graphs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- FWIW I have to agree with Mike. Things may be different over there, Pat, don't your toilet water swirl the other direction???????? or is that Austraila? :-) I had a Mark III classic with a 582 that I flew for a year pretty hard. John Hauck had talked about a soft field technique that he used when he needed to get off the ground in a hurry that entailed starting your takeoff roll and when you reach about 30 MPH or less ,depending on your stall speed, pull one notch of flaps but keep your hand on the handle so that you can either apply more flaps or in the most likely case, slowly release more and more of the flaps while you are in ground effects to get your speed up. Once you have reached normal flying speed go ahead and climb on out. It really works very well. However the climb was pretty much crap until you released the flaps to neutral. The plane will jump off the ground in a hurry. We are heading out driving ( Yes Boyd, I brought an extra chair) tomorrow. Will be arriving early afternoon thursday. Any body flying in, buzz the campground doing a couple of wing waves if you are flying something different from a Kolb, and we will come down to pick you up. Be there or be square! Larry C


    Message 19


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    Time: 11:20:29 AM PST US
    From: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS
    Depends upon which rotax...... It will turn the prop the same direction as the four stroker 912, CCW looking from the rear. Are you using gears or belt? G10 or G13? BB still puttering around the yard. On 12, May 2009, at 1:37 PM, Ron wrote: > > I need a prop for my Geo motor, but have not looked into the > rotation direction if it's the same as a rotax. Bob Bean do you > know if I can use his prop on my 1.3 Geo motor? > > Ron @ KFHU > > ============= > ---- lucien <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com> wrote: > > ============ > > Hi all, > > I'm putting my 68" WD up for sale. PM me for details here at > matronics or at my lstavenhagen@hotmail.com address. > > Do not archive > > LS > > -------- > LS > Titan II SS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243718#243718 > > > -- > kugelair.com > >


    Message 20


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    Time: 12:21:28 PM PST US
    From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
    Subject: 68" WD 3 blade FS
    Ron=2C Mike Sharp and I just had this conversation the other day.....namely=3B w hich prop do you need? I have GEO 1 liter with Raven Redrives belt drive. This requires a LEFT turning prop (counter clockwise rotation) If you have one of those SPG-2 gear drive units=2C then you'd need the sa me prop type as a Rotax 912....a right turning=2C clockwise rotation prop. But if you have the belt drive like I have=2C then you're looking for a le ft turning prop. Mike Welch MkIII > I need a prop for my Geo motor=2C but have not looked into the rotation d irection if it's the same as a rotax. > Ron @ KFHU _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009


    Message 21


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    Time: 01:23:57 PM PST US
    From: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS
    hmmmm, in my most diplomatic tones, 912 turns CCW from the rear looking front. BB BTW, if'n I get around to it, I want to try a 70" two blade powerfin on my G10 geo/suzuki On 12, May 2009, at 3:20 PM, Mike Welch wrote: > Ron, > > Mike Sharp and I just had this conversation the other > day.....namely; which prop do you need? > > I have GEO 1 liter with Raven Redrives belt drive. This requires > a LEFT turning prop (counter clockwise rotation) > If you have one of those SPG-2 gear drive units, then you'd need > the same prop type as a Rotax 912....a right turning, clockwise > rotation prop. But if you have the belt drive like I have, then > you're looking for a left turning prop. > > Mike Welch > MkIII > > > > I need a prop for my Geo motor, but have not looked into the > rotation direction if it's the same as a rotax. > > Ron @ KFHU > > > Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. > >


    Message 22


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    Time: 01:37:19 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Another cross country - Vidalia AirShow
    From: "grantr" <grant_richardson25@yahoo.com>
    You needed a big ole stick. Stuff like that makes my blood boil. Those kids would have know how I felt about it [Evil or Very Mad] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243774#243774


    Message 23


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    Time: 01:52:49 PM PST US
    From: Michael Sharp <kolbdriver@mlsharp.com>
    Subject: Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS
    LOL,=0A=0AThats where I get confused!=0A=0AWhere the heck do I stand????=0A =0AMike=0ADo Not Archive=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom : robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>=0ATo: kolb-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 3:10:25 PM=0ASubject: Re: Kolb-List: 68" WD 3 blade FS=0A=0Ahmmmm, =C2-in my most diplomatic tones, 912 turns CCW from the re ar looking front. =0ABB=0ABTW, if'n I get around to it, I want to try a 70" two blade powerfin on my G10 geo/suzuki=0A=0A=0AOn 12, May 2009, at 3:20 P M, Mike Welch wrote:=0A=0ARon,=0A=C2-=0A=C2- Mike Sharp and I just had this conversation the other day.....namely; which prop do you need?=0A=C2 -=0A=C2- I have GEO 1 liter with Raven Redrives belt drive.=C2- This requires a LEFT turning prop (counter clockwise rotation)=0A=C2- If you h ave one of those SPG-2 gear drive units, then you'd need the same prop type as a Rotax 912....a right turning, clockwise rotation prop.=C2- But if y ou have the belt drive like I have, then you're looking for a left turning prop.=0A=C2-=0AMike Welch=0AMkIII=0A=C2-=0A=0A> I need a prop for my Ge o motor, but have not looked into the rotation direction if it's the same a s a rotax.=C2-=0A> Ron @ KFHU=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A Windows Live=84=A2: Keep your life in sync.=C2-Check it out.=0Ahttp:// www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">h ttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" ========


    Message 24


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    Time: 01:52:50 PM PST US
    From: william sullivan <williamtsullivan@att.net>
    Subject: videos
    - Grant- Have you posted any more videos lately?- Or Dana? - do not archive ------------------------- ---------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- ---------------- Windsor Locks, Ct. ------------------------- ---------------- FS 447


    Message 25


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    Time: 02:08:55 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: videos
    From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
    We are short of new videos ... I search Grants account every once in a while but nothing new.. I have had to revert to watching TV again :( Mike -------- &quot;NO FEAR&quot; - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243782#243782


    Message 26


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    Time: 02:11:57 PM PST US
    From: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS
    on a Kolb, behind the prop facing front. It is easy to get messed up because industry definitions are not uniform. The likely reason is that until our category became popular tractor configurations were the norm. I wanted to offer a prop for Thom Riddle to experiment on his Rans/ 912 but he immediately reminded me of the minor problem. He sure could taxi backwards fast though. Be VERY certain when you buy a prop though or you will be paying some extra UPS fees. BB On 12, May 2009, at 4:45 PM, Michael Sharp wrote: > LOL, > > Thats where I get confused! > > Where the heck do I stand???? > > Mike > Do Not Archive > > From: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net> > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 3:10:25 PM > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 68" WD 3 blade FS > > hmmmm, in my most diplomatic tones, 912 turns CCW from the rear > looking front. > BB > BTW, if'n I get around to it, I want to try a 70" two blade > powerfin on my G10 geo/suzuki > > On 12, May 2009, at 3:20 PM, Mike Welch wrote: > >> Ron, >> >> Mike Sharp and I just had this conversation the other >> day.....namely; which prop do you need? >> >> I have GEO 1 liter with Raven Redrives belt drive. This >> requires a LEFT turning prop (counter clockwise rotation) >> If you have one of those SPG-2 gear drive units, then you'd need >> the same prop type as a Rotax 912....a right turning, clockwise >> rotation prop. But if you have the belt drive like I have, then >> you're looking for a left turning prop. >> >> Mike Welch >> MkIII >> >> >> > I need a prop for my Geo motor, but have not looked into the >> rotation direction if it's the same as a rotax. >> > Ron @ KFHU >> >> >> Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhref="http:// >> forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http:// >> www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> > > http://fo======== > >


    Message 27


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    Time: 02:16:00 PM PST US
    From: william sullivan <williamtsullivan@att.net>
    Subject: Re: videos
    - No videos, nothing worthwhile on the tube, bad weather, and I'm running out of un-read books.- Somebody better take something on the MV trip. - do not archive ------------------------- ------------------------- Bill Sullivan ------------------------- ------------------------- Windsor Locks, Ct. ------------------------- ------------------------- FS 447


    Message 28


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    Time: 02:42:39 PM PST US
    From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS
    At 04:45 PM 5/12/2009, Michael Sharp wrote: >LOL, > >Thats where I get confused! > >Where the heck do I stand???? Stand where it's windy, and look at the top of the prop. If it moves to the right, is a RH prop, and vice versa. -Dana -- Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.


    Message 29


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    Time: 02:42:39 PM PST US
    From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: videos
    At 04:49 PM 5/12/2009, william sullivan wrote: > Grant- Have you posted any more videos lately? Or Dana? None here, gotta fly some more. -Dana -- Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.


    Message 30


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    Time: 04:15:28 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: lawn chairs for mv
    From: "Dave Rains" <RangeFlyer72@yahoo.com>
    You need a bigger plane! Dave "Skeeter" Rains C175B -------- Dave Rains N8086T Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243800#243800


    Message 31


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    Time: 04:50:12 PM PST US
    From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
    Subject: 68" WD 3 blade FS
    I was under the impression the Rotax 912 spun it's prop in CW rotation. It doesn't? Ok. Didn't need any diplomacy to admit it. MW hmmmm=2C in my most diplomatic tones=2C 912 turns CCW from the rear lookin g front. BB BTW=2C if'n I get around to it=2C I want to try a 70" two blade powerfin on my G10 geo/suzuki On 12=2C May 2009=2C at 3:20 PM=2C Mike Welch wrote: Ron=2C Mike Sharp and I just had this conversation the other day.....namely=3B w hich prop do you need? I have GEO 1 liter with Raven Redrives belt drive. This requires a LEFT turning prop (counter clockwise rotation) If you have one of those SPG-2 gear drive units=2C then you'd need the sa me prop type as a Rotax 912....a right turning=2C clockwise rotation prop. But if you have the belt drive like I have=2C then you're looking for a le ft turning prop. Mike Welch MkIII > I need a prop for my Geo motor=2C but have not looked into the rotation d irection if it's the same as a rotax. > Ron @ KFHU Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync. Check it out.http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/con tribution _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail=AE has a new way to see what's up with your friends. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tut orial_WhatsNew1_052009


    Message 32


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    Time: 06:14:11 PM PST US
    From: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS
    The MkIII I have had been bent up pretty good before I bought it and it had a 912 on it. I got the 70" 3 blade WD prop that was attached and somehow survived the event as part of the package. I turned the right direction for my suzuki but was too much prop. I bought a two blade hub which much closer matched my horsepower. BB On 12, May 2009, at 7:46 PM, Mike Welch wrote: > > I was under the impression the Rotax 912 spun it's prop in CW > rotation. It doesn't? Ok. > Didn't need any diplomacy to admit it. > MW > hmmmm, in my most diplomatic tones, 912 turns CCW from the rear > looking front. > BB > BTW, if'n I get around to it, I want to try a 70" two blade > powerfin on my G10 geo/suzuki > > On 12, May 2009, at 3:20 PM, Mike Welch wrote: > > Ron, > > Mike Sharp and I just had this conversation the other > day.....namely; which prop do you need? > > I have GEO 1 liter with Raven Redrives belt drive. This requires > a LEFT turning prop (counter clockwise rotation) > If you have one of those SPG-2 gear drive units, then you'd need > the same prop type as a Rotax 912....a right turning, clockwise > rotation prop. But if you have the belt drive like I have, then > you're looking for a left turning prop. > > Mike Welch > MkIII > > > > I need a prop for my Geo motor, but have not looked into the > rotation direction if it's the same as a rotax. > > Ron @ KFHU > > > Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http:// > www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > ronics.com > ww.matronics.com/contribution > > > Hotmail=AE has a new way to see what's up with your friends. Check it > out. > >


    Message 33


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    Time: 07:47:59 PM PST US
    Subject: Gaggle of 5 in Sherman, TX
    From: "John Bickham" <gearbender@bellsouth.net>
    Well we made it. We're in Sherman, TX. Gary H in J5 Henry C in Kolb MIIIC (gary's) John H in Kolb MIIIC Bruce C in Kolb MIIIC me in Kolb MIIIC Got here and courtesy car was already out for the night. Panic set in, people got grumpy, then John H turned on his charm. Former mayor of Sherman rode up on his bicycle. John H was able to volunteer to get him to ride home on his bike, get his van, and take us to eat. Living the Dream! http://www.kolbadventures.blogspot.com/ -------- Thanks too much, John Bickham Mark III-C w/ 912UL St. Francisville, LA Landing a plane and being married - a few smooth moments mixed with a lot of rough ones. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243816#243816


    Message 34


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    Time: 07:50:34 PM PST US
    From: Ron <captainron1@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS
    I am using Vassily's SPG-2 and the 1.3 liter dohc. Ron @ KFHU ========================= ---- robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net> wrote: ============ Depends upon which rotax...... It will turn the prop the same direction as the four stroker 912, CCW looking from the rear. Are you using gears or belt? G10 or G13? BB still puttering around the yard. On 12, May 2009, at 1:37 PM, Ron wrote: > > I need a prop for my Geo motor, but have not looked into the > rotation direction if it's the same as a rotax. Bob Bean do you > know if I can use his prop on my 1.3 Geo motor? > > Ron @ KFHU > > ============= > ---- lucien <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com> wrote: > > ============ > > Hi all, > > I'm putting my 68" WD up for sale. PM me for details here at > matronics or at my lstavenhagen@hotmail.com address. > > Do not archive > > LS > > -------- > LS > Titan II SS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243718#243718 > > > -- > kugelair.com > > -- kugelair.com


    Message 35


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    Time: 07:51:20 PM PST US
    From: Ron <captainron1@cox.net>
    Subject: 68" WD 3 blade FS
    That's good I got Vassily's gizmo. That makes it lots easier just get the Rotax 912 prop, is all I got to remember. Ron @ KFHU ---- Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com> wrote: ============ Ron, Mike Sharp and I just had this conversation the other day.....namely; which prop do you need? I have GEO 1 liter with Raven Redrives belt drive. This requires a LEFT turning prop (counter clockwise rotation) If you have one of those SPG-2 gear drive units, then you'd need the same prop type as a Rotax 912....a right turning, clockwise rotation prop. But if you have the belt drive like I have, then you're looking for a left turning prop. Mike Welch MkIII > I need a prop for my Geo motor, but have not looked into the rotation direction if it's the same as a rotax. > Ron @ KFHU _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009 -- kugelair.com


    Message 36


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    Time: 07:55:41 PM PST US
    From: Ron <captainron1@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS
    Okay just to clarify, I rather everyone agrees, that the prop to my 1.3 liter with the SPG-2 uses the same prop as the 912 Rotax, is that right???? Ron @ KFHU ========================== ---- robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net> wrote: ============ hmmmm, in my most diplomatic tones, 912 turns CCW from the rear looking front. BB BTW, if'n I get around to it, I want to try a 70" two blade powerfin on my G10 geo/suzuki On 12, May 2009, at 3:20 PM, Mike Welch wrote: > Ron, > > Mike Sharp and I just had this conversation the other > day.....namely; which prop do you need? > > I have GEO 1 liter with Raven Redrives belt drive. This requires > a LEFT turning prop (counter clockwise rotation) > If you have one of those SPG-2 gear drive units, then you'd need > the same prop type as a Rotax 912....a right turning, clockwise > rotation prop. But if you have the belt drive like I have, then > you're looking for a left turning prop. > > Mike Welch > MkIII > > > > I need a prop for my Geo motor, but have not looked into the > rotation direction if it's the same as a rotax. > > Ron @ KFHU > > > Windows Live: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. > > -- kugelair.com


    Message 37


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    Time: 08:53:53 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: 68" WD 3 blade FS
    From: "lucien" <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
    Dana wrote: > > Stand where it's windy, and look at the top of the prop. If it moves to > the right, is a RH prop, and vice versa. > > -Dana > -- > Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine. On the 912 series, in pusher configuration (like on the Kolb) you need a left hand turning prop. I.e. top of the prop viewing from behind the plane moves to the left. My WD is a left hand pusher.... Also keep in mind its bolt pattern is for the 912 prop flange with the mounting lugs installed (has the countersunk holes on the back half of the hub... LS LS -------- LS Titan II SS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243824#243824


    Message 38


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    Time: 09:14:33 PM PST US
    From: "b young" <by0ung@brigham.net>
    Subject: 68" WD 3 blade FS
    hmmmm, in my most diplomatic tones, 912 turns CCW from the rear looking front. BB >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If it is mounted as a pusher!!!! Boyd




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