Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:46 AM - Re: New shop (Clif Dawson)
2. 01:02 AM - Re: New shop (Clif Dawson)
3. 06:58 AM - New Shop (Barry Davis)
4. 06:59 AM - Re: New shop (Robert Haines)
5. 07:02 AM - Re: New shop (Robert Haines)
6. 07:20 AM - Another fuselage width question (At7000ft@aol.com)
7. 07:26 AM - Re: Another fuselage width question (Andimaxd@aol.com)
8. 08:26 AM - Pietenpol as a School Project (Bruce __)
9. 09:20 AM - Re: Another fuselage width question (catdesign@intergate.com)
10. 12:33 PM - Sport Pilot guess (Robert Haines)
11. 12:55 PM - Re: Another fuselage width question (At7000ft@aol.com)
12. 01:14 PM - Re: Sport Pilot guess (w b evans)
13. 01:31 PM - Re: Sport Pilot guess (Isablcorky@aol.com)
14. 02:45 PM - Re: Pietenpol as a School Project (dan john)
15. 04:07 PM - Re: Pietenpol as a School Project (Rcaprd@aol.com)
16. 05:01 PM - Re: New shop (Christian Bobka)
17. 05:45 PM - Re: New shop (Christian Bobka)
18. 05:56 PM - Re: New shop (Christian Bobka)
19. 06:00 PM - Re: New shop (Christian Bobka)
20. 09:15 PM - Re: Canadian myths (dave rowe)
21. 11:51 PM - Re: Another fuselage width question (Clif Dawson)
Message 1
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
Pacific Flier
www.pacificflyer.com
Hummm....does anyone know where I can get an airplane calender,
with bikini babes ?
>
> Chuck Gantzer
>
Message 2
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
Or don't put any in at all. I don't miss them. After all,
I'm there to build stuff. Windows just take up valuable
wall space. You do want to hang that calender don't
you?
Clif
>
> If crime is a problem in your area, place windows high, they will let
light
> in and keep prying eyes out.
>
> Good luck - we want to see picture later!
>
> Random ROG
> Libby, Montana
> First rib still in jig.
Message 3
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Barry Davis" <bed@mindspring.com>
I have one workbench in my shop that is 2" x 16" . No big deal, but a few years
ago, I put a shelf over the workbench that is made from 2 full sheets of plywood.
the shelf is 4' x 16' and suspended from the ceiling in the front using 1/2"
threaded rod and one long 2x6x16 (no posts). It is a great place for storing
the big stuff like completed tailfeathers and cowlings. Also, I mounted 2-
8" lights under the shelf just for the workbench with its own switch, WoW what
a difference that extra light makes! Before, the light was coming from behind
me and my work was always in the (large) shadow.
Agreeing with a previous post, you can't have too many electrical outlets or air
outlets. I ripped out all my old black-iron piping and replaced it with pvc.
No more rust stain in the compressed air. In the humid South, we always leave
the drain valve on the air tank cracked open just a little to drain the water
out. You won't lose a couple psi over a 15 minute period, but you will be surprised
to see how much water flows out. I had to use a plastic pan that goes
under a hot water heater and drain outside the compressor house to keep the floor
dry. The cool steel tank will condense a lot of water out of the warm compressed
air, similar to a cold glass of sweet tea sitting on the front porch in
the summer.
Building landing gear
Barry
Message 4
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk@hotmail.com>
I agree with the two items that Kent mentioned:
I owned a cabinet shop and we used PVC to distribute compressed air (we were
a start-up and were working on the cheap). We had it blow, fortunately
no-one was hurt, but it was a LOUD explosion. About ten feet of 1" line
turned into pieces up to 50' away. Our downfall was that the PVC was
connected to the compressor directly and the vibration fatigued it. If you
really must use PVC, feed it with a rubber or vinyl line. For your size
shop, you really don't need much more than one fat pipe with a couple of
quick-disconnects that you will plug your hose into anyway, so go steel.
Also, PVC and plastic pipe will generate a static when used for dust
collection and needs to be grounded. We used galvanized HVAC pipe/ductwork
for our dust collection. The only piece of non-metalic pipe was a 10' long
4" flexible line running to the CNC router and it had a copper wire spirally
wrapped in it's construction. It was stripped at one end and connected to
the metal stuff. You knew when it wasn't because a spark would generate
between the intake and the router bit (about a 1" jump) every second. This
was not our normal operation. If you do end up getting that
stick-it-to-a-shop-vac type dust collection from Home-Depot, find out how to
ground it properly.
Robert Haines
Du Quoin, Illinois
Time: 10:10:08 AM PST US
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New shop
From: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten@Governair.com>
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten"
<KHallsten@Governair.com>
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
>
> My dad uses PVC pipe do distribute air. No leaks *or*
> explosions in 12
> years. Works just great.
I hope it keeps working for your Dad. This PVC is for plumbing and venting,
etc.
Non-pressure uses.
If you check the REC.WOODWORKING newsgroup you will find a lot of
information and
opinions on using PVC to supply air. I think it's an un-necessary chance.
One explosion will send shards of PVC slivers all over. That's the thing
about
PVC, you'll never know it's true condition until it blows. Please use steel
pipe.
Now if you intend to use it (PVC) in a dust collection system that's a bit
different.
It won't explode but some say it builds up static electricity and can
explode
the dust. I believe it can be easily grounded.
Kent
Message 5
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk@hotmail.com>
Air Compressor in the bathroom?! If that thing were to suddenly kick on
while you were in there, it might scare the crap out of you. Oh wait, that
would be OK.
RH
DQ IL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pietenpol-List Digest Server" <pietenpol-list-digest@matronics.com>
From: Roger & Kathy Green <rgreen@libby.org>
Subject: Fwd: Pietenpol-List: New shop
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Roger & Kathy Green <rgreen@libby.org>
Shop thoughts:
I put my air compressor in the bathroom, keeps the noise out of the shop.
I put a lighted pilot switch by the door - one for the compressor and one
for the water heater.
I put in a lot of receptacle, 5 per circuit, but put every other one on a
different circuit.
I have built two shop now. I always make the walk through door 3 feet 6
inches or 4 feet wide. You will take a lot of things through that door.
I have seen barn door tracks used for light duty over head trolley
system. Put one near each side of your shop, running the full length and a
another one attach to a light beam hanging between the first two. Put a
chain hoist on the travelling car and now you can pick up that new Delta
Unisaw (with 52 inch fence) from the back of your pickup and place anywhere
in the shop!
If crime is a problem in your area, place windows high, they will let light
in and keep prying eyes out.
Good luck - we want to see picture later!
Random ROG
Libby, Montana
First rib still in jig.
List" <pietenpol-list-digest@matronics.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 12/10/03
> *
>
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>
> HTML Version:
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> ================================================
>
>
> Pietenpol-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Wed 12/10/03: 30
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 04:32 AM - Re: New shop (John_Duprey@vmed.org)
> 2. 04:44 AM - Re: New shop (John Myers)
> 3. 05:17 AM - Re: New shop (Cy Galley)
> 4. 06:01 AM - New shop (Sayre, William G)
> 5. 07:06 AM - Re: New shop (Robert Haines)
> 6. 07:52 AM - Re: New shop (John Ford)
> 7. 07:59 AM - Re: New shop (Gadd, Skip)
> 8. 08:00 AM - Re: New shop (Mike)
> 9. 08:12 AM - Re: New shop (Barry Davis)
> 10. 08:23 AM - Re: New shop (Isablcorky@aol.com)
> 11. 09:30 AM - Re: New shop (Mike B.)
> 12. 09:31 AM - Re: New shop (Lynn & Doris Knoll)
> 13. 09:46 AM - Re: New shop (John_Duprey@vmed.org)
> 14. 10:03 AM - Re: New shop (Michael D Cuy)
> 15. 10:10 AM - Re: New shop (Kent Hallsten)
> 16. 10:22 AM - Stuff on eBay (czechsix@juno.com)
> 17. 11:01 AM - Re: New shop (DJ Vegh)
> 18. 11:30 AM - Re: New shop (Mike B.)
> 19. 01:29 PM - Re: New shop (Kent Hallsten)
> 20. 02:01 PM - Re: New shop (Mike B.)
> 21. 02:02 PM - Re: New shop (Lynn & Doris Knoll)
> 22. 02:02 PM - Re: Survey (carl loar)
> 23. 02:18 PM - Re: New shop (John Ford)
> 24. 02:52 PM - new shop (w b evans)
> 25. 04:50 PM - Re: New shop (Jack Phillips)
> 26. 04:50 PM - Re: Survey (Jack Phillips)
> 27. 05:01 PM - Re: New shop (Jack Phillips)
> 28. 07:03 PM - Re: New shop (Rcaprd@aol.com)
> 29. 07:26 PM - Fw: New shop (Roger & Kathy Green)
> 30. 09:01 PM - Re: New shop and a GREAT x-mas present for our military
heros! (Bert Conoly)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 04:32:15 AM PST US
> From: John_Duprey@vmed.org
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop
> 12/10/2003 07:31:52 AM
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: John_Duprey@vmed.org
>
>
> Hey Mike: I think you should build it in my back yard, thus avoiding the
> increase in realestate taxes. Of course in exchange I will build my
project
> in there ;-)
>
> John
>
>
> "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>@matronics.com on 12/10/2003 12:10:30 AM
>
> Please respond to pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>
> Sent by: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
>
>
> cc:
>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
>
>
> I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I
> was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building
> the structure (of my design. Yikes!)
>
> I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had
> installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building
> specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly,
> what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished
> should I consider?
>
> -Mike.
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 04:44:04 AM PST US
> From: John Myers <jmyers@powernet.org>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: John Myers <jmyers@powernet.org>
>
> Mike, FWIW my shop is much more functional after I added a bathroom
> including a small water heater. I also put in a shower but have never
used
> it. Other half has threatened to exile me there someday, so it may come
in
> handy. Fortunately, I put pvc plumbing traps and pipe before pouring the
> slab.
> Electric outlets and lighting is a big deal for me so good planning as you
> build your dream shop is a must.
>
> Good luck
> John
>
> At 11:10 PM 12/9/2003, you wrote:
> >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> >
> >
> >I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I
> >was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building
> >the structure (of my design. Yikes!)
> >
> >I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had
> >installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building
> >specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly,
> >what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished
> >should I consider?
> >
> >-Mike.
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:17:45 AM PST US
> From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
>
> I would make sure that there is a vapor barrier under the slab for sure.
> Perimeter insulation for colder climates plus heating coils in the slab.
Of
> course, if you are in a cold climate, insulate heavily. Cheap and easy
now.
> difficult later. Lots of lighting and outlets. Master switches by the
door.
>
> Cy Galley - Bellanca Champion Club
> Newsletter Editor & EAA TC
> www.bellanca-championclub.com
> Actively supporting Aeroncas every day
> Quarterly newsletters on time
> Reasonable document reprints
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> >
> >
> > I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I
> > was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building
> > the structure (of my design. Yikes!)
> >
> > I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had
> > installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building
> > specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly,
> > what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished
> > should I consider?
> >
> > -Mike.
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:01:11 AM PST US
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: New shop
> From: "Sayre, William G" <william.g.sayre@boeing.com>
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Sayre, William G"
<william.g.sayre@boeing.com>
>
> When I asked this question to my father who always had a shop wherever we
lived,
> his response was...
> "you can't build a shop too big and NEVER - EVER put a post in the
middle!"
>
> 30'x40'x13' sounds great to me and the advice about lighting and power
receptacles
> is right on. One suggestion on lighting, have two switches - one for
minimum
> lighting, and the other turns on the rest. It's amazing how often you
just
> trip in and out of the shop getting tools or parts and don't need all that
light.
> I wired my shop this way and use that feature quite a bit.
>
> Hope that's of some help!
>
> -----------------------------------
> From: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
>
>
> I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I
> was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building
> the structure (of my design. Yikes!)
>
> I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had
> installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building
> specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly,
> what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished
> should I consider?
>
> -Mike.
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:06:31 AM PST US
> From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Robert Haines"
<robertsjunk@hotmail.com>
>
> Mike,
>
> I built a 20'x20' two story garage/shop (my property is very small).
Since
> I couldn't go wide, I went up. I'm assuming that you won't be putting on
a
> second floor but if you are, make sure that you design for the least
amount
> to no vertical supports holding up the floor. I spanned the whole 20'.
> Much wider and I would have to had run a beam and a row of columns down
the
> middle of the space; not a good thing.
>
> Also, since my floor to ceiling was 7'-6", I am able to just reach the
> bottom of the ceiling. I put outlets on the ceiling so when I have my
> tablesaw or whatever in the middle of the room, I just go up... not across
> the floor, over the bench, and behind the shelves. If the ceiling isn't
low
> enough to reach, run it up to 10' for the extra volume. You've already
> bought the floor and roof, a few extra feet of wall doesn't add much.
>
> If you are buying premanufactured roof trusses, talk to the lumber yard or
> manufacturer and see if they have the "bonus space" style available.
> Essentially, the center of the truss will have a nice open square, maybe
4'
> wide, in the middle that you can drop a floor onto and use as extra
storage.
>
> It's real nice to have plenty of outlets, mount them all at 48". Floor
> level outlets in a garage doesn't make much sense. Put the air compressor
> on it own circuit (preferably in someone else's garage, mine's making me
> deaf). Install at least one 220V welding outlet near the garage door, I'm
> always using my MIG to fix something that I can't get in the shop. Not to
> mention wood shaving and welding sparks don't mix. Put flood lights on
the
> outside to light up your outside work area. All outlets should be GFCI
> protected and if it's three car or larger, it needs floor drains (and
> possibly a grease separator) by BOCA and ICC code. I live in a small town
> with no code enforcement, lucky me.
>
> If you are planning on insulating and paneling (you are obviously made of
> money) use OSB for the bottom 4' and then drywall above. The OSB holds up
> better and the drywall is cheap. Painted white and covered with shelves
and
> benches, you won't notice the OSB. If you really have the coin, replace
the
> drywall with pegboard. A lawyer friend covered the whole inside of his
> garage with pine beadboard pegboard and had is stained... it looks
beautiful
> but a little overkill to hang an extension cord, a rake, and a broom.
>
> Lots of lights.
>
> Consider how you are going to heat it. If you are going to be in there
> eight hours a day, five days a week, it makes sense to spend a little more
> money on a heating/cooling system and insulation. If it's just a few
hours
> a week, the insulation will never return the investment. Consider
underslab
> radiant heat. If you are near, I have a two year old 140000btu boiler
that
> came out of the house we are remodeling that I can sell you (I'm really
just
> trying to get it out of my shop). Any gas appliance in the space should
be
> sealed combustion, although I use a kerosene heater (obviously an exposed
> flame). Airborne sawdust in the right density is explosive and it's
> possible to get there if the bag on your dust collector pops loose.
>
> Don't make it so nice that the wife and kids want to hang out in there.
And
> stay strong right from the begining that it will NOT be a place to store
> Christmas decoration, the kids old toys, the treadmill that nobody uses,
> boxes and boxes of crap that should be thrown away or given to Goodwill.
> And you will need at least one Snap-On tool calendar (you know, the ones
> where there's a new girl each month holding a tool). It's wife repellant.
>
> Robert Haines
> Du Quoin, Illinois
>
>
> Time: 09:10:33 PM PST US
> From: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
>
>
> I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I
> was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building
> the structure (of my design. Yikes!)
>
> I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had
> installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building
> specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly,
> what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished
> should I consider?
>
> -Mike.
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:52:25 AM PST US
> From: "John Ford" <Jford@indstate.edu>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" <Jford@indstate.edu>
>
> A hoist suspended from a track running the length of the shop, so you
> can move heavy stuff by yourself. Phone and Ethernet capability for
> ordering parts and those late nights reading this list on your laptop.
> A place for the coffee pot where it won't get filled with sawdust.
> Running water (and drainage) for aforementioned coffee pot and washing
> up. Overhead storage racks for tubing, wood, etc., and a comfortable
> place to hide William Wynne while he builds your Corvair engine under
> duress after you've kidnapped him. ;-) (that was a joke, by the way)
> john
>
> John Ford
> john@indstate.edu
> 812-237-8542
>
>
> >>> piet@pointdx.com Wednesday, December 10, 2003 12:10:30 AM >>>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
>
>
> I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I
>
> was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building
>
> the structure (of my design. Yikes!)
>
> I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had
> installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building
> specific things might I consider before I get started? Most
> importantly,
> what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished
> should I consider?
>
> -Mike.
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:59:11 AM PST US
> From: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd@ssa.gov>
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd@ssa.gov>
>
> What a bunch of great suggestions! This list is just great. I have been
> thinking about my dream shop a lot lately and still picked up some great
> ideas.
> My shop will have a wood floor, so I can put electric outlets and sawdust
> suction system in the floor. Wood is cheaper but more work than cement.
> One suggestion on the master switch by the door, put it high, at least 5
1/2
> feet, keeps it away from little hands.
> As we are talking dream shop here, it seems during construction it would
be
> easy to plumb a PVC air system through the shop and have outlets for air
as
> well as electricity.
> Skip
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:00:22 AM PST US
> From: Mike <bike.mike@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mike <bike.mike@verizon.net>
>
> I think a lot of the guys on this list are jealous of your new shop, Mike.
I
> know I am.
> One thing that often gets overlooked in shop space is the floor. New
concrete
> needs to be sealed to keep it from chalking and putting cement dust in
> everything. If you seal it with a light colored floor treatment, such as
> white or very light gray, it will be much easier to find small things
you've
> dropped and the place will be brighter for a given amount of lighting.
The
> inevitable workplace safety inspection of a new government hangar space I
> worked in once discovered that the white painted floor saved nearly 30% on
> lighting costs.
>
> Mike Hardaway
>
>
> "Mike B." wrote:
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> >
> > I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I
> > was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building
> > the structure (of my design. Yikes!)
> >
> > I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had
> > installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building
> > specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly,
> > what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished
> > should I consider?
> >
> > -Mike.
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:12:13 AM PST US
> From: "Barry Davis" <bed@mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Barry Davis" <bed@mindspring.com>
>
>
> Go ahead and double the size!!!!!
> At least design it so it can be added-on to later (roof pitched the right
> way, etc.)
> bed
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 10
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:23:46 AM PST US
> From: Isablcorky@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com
>
> Fellow next door is building his dream shop. Started with a two bay car
> garage on the east side, 24X24, then the shop on the west side of the
slab, 24X36
>
> w/ plumbing. THEN his wife said, we need a guest suite ( for the in-laws)
so up
>
> he went, apartment over shop, storage over garage w/ a lower roof. Then
the
> wife said, dormer windows would look nice on the front side, sooooooooooo
I'm
> hesitant to ask what this is costing but it will surely pan out as they
are
> young and eager.
> It will be a very nice addition to our block.
> CMC in La
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 11
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:30:02 AM PST US
> From: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
>
> My dad uses PVC pipe do distribute air. No leaks *or* explosions in 12
> years. Works just great. One thing that he did that I thought was clever
> was to use a T to put the chuck about 1 foot above the end of the
> (vertical) pipe, then have a plain old water spigot type valve at the
> bottom end of the pipe to bleed out water and other crud periodically.
>
> Gadd, Skip wrote:
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd@ssa.gov>
> >
> > What a bunch of great suggestions! This list is just great. I have been
> > thinking about my dream shop a lot lately and still picked up some great
> > ideas.
> > My shop will have a wood floor, so I can put electric outlets and
sawdust
> > suction system in the floor. Wood is cheaper but more work than cement.
> > One suggestion on the master switch by the door, put it high, at least 5
1/2
> > feet, keeps it away from little hands.
> > As we are talking dream shop here, it seems during construction it would
be
> > easy to plumb a PVC air system through the shop and have outlets for air
as
> > well as electricity.
> > Skip
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 12
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:31:01 AM PST US
> From: "Lynn & Doris Knoll" <dknoll@cox.net>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Lynn & Doris Knoll"
<dknoll@cox.net>
>
> Hi Mike,
> A friend of mine is having a shop built so I'll pass on these bits of
> information. He put in electrical outlets every 3 feet in all the walls
> about 5 feet up from the floor. May be overkill but they will be handy. He
> put every 6 outlets on a separate circuit. Also, don't skimp on
insullation
> especially if you use propane. Hope this helps.
> Lynn Knoll
> Wichita, Piet/Corvair builder
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> >
> >
> > I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I
> > was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building
> > the structure (of my design. Yikes!)
> >
> > I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had
> > installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building
> > specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly,
> > what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished
> > should I consider?
> >
> > -Mike.
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 13
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:46:48 AM PST US
> From: John_Duprey@vmed.org
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop
> 12/10/2003 12:46:42 PM
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: John_Duprey@vmed.org
>
>
> If you live in a cold climate I would frame the walls with 2x6 instead of
> 2x4 this allowes more insulation and lower heating cost.
>
>
> "Lynn & Doris Knoll" <dknoll@cox.net>@matronics.com on 12/10/2003 12:29:14
> PM
>
> Please respond to pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>
> Sent by: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
>
>
> cc:
>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Lynn & Doris Knoll"
<dknoll@cox.net>
>
> Hi Mike,
> A friend of mine is having a shop built so I'll pass on these bits of
> information. He put in electrical outlets every 3 feet in all the walls
> about 5 feet up from the floor. May be overkill but they will be handy. He
> put every 6 outlets on a separate circuit. Also, don't skimp on
insullation
> especially if you use propane. Hope this helps.
> Lynn Knoll
> Wichita, Piet/Corvair builder
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> >
> >
> > I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I
> > was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building
> > the structure (of my design. Yikes!)
> >
> > I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had
> > installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building
> > specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly,
> > what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished
> > should I consider?
> >
> > -Mike.
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 14
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 10:03:27 AM PST US
> From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
<Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>
> And a nice, small color tv and fridge really come in handy too. I don't
> know how many ball games
> and 10 pm news stories I watched while building and sipping.......
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 15
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 10:10:08 AM PST US
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New shop
> From: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten@Governair.com>
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten"
<KHallsten@Governair.com>
>
>
> >
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> >
> > My dad uses PVC pipe do distribute air. No leaks *or*
> > explosions in 12
> > years. Works just great.
>
> I hope it keeps working for your Dad. This PVC is for plumbing and
venting, etc.
> Non-pressure uses.
>
> If you check the REC.WOODWORKING newsgroup you will find a lot of
information and
> opinions on using PVC to supply air. I think it's an un-necessary chance.
> One explosion will send shards of PVC slivers all over. That's the thing
about
> PVC, you'll never know it's true condition until it blows. Please use
steel
> pipe.
>
> Now if you intend to use it (PVC) in a dust collection system that's a bit
different.
> It won't explode but some say it builds up static electricity and can
explode
> the dust. I believe it can be easily grounded.
>
> Kent
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 16
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 10:22:09 AM PST US
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Stuff on eBay
> From: czechsix@juno.com
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com
>
>
> Guys,
>
> I have a few things on eBay if anyone's interested. If the link doesn't
work just
> search on the item number. If you have questions please contact me OFF
LIST.
>
> Thanks and Do Not Archive!
>
> --Mark Navratil
> Cedar Rapids, Iowa
> RV-8A N2D finishing....
>
> Turn Coordinator, item #2447588004
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2447588004
>
> Andair Mini Gascolator, item #2447590842
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2447590842
>
> Bendix Mags, item #2447592770
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2447592770
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 17
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:01:18 AM PST US
> From: "DJ Vegh" <djv@imagedv.com>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <djv@imagedv.com>
>
> I'm not completely endorsing the use of PVC for 120psi lines, but I will
say that
> my family's cabinet/furniture shop that we had back in the mid 80's had
about
> 2,500 ft of PVC air lines that went from the central compressor to all the
> assembly stations.... about 50 in all.... it worked for 7 years before we
finally
> moved out of that building..... never failed.
>
> I'm of the opinion that it'll work fine... but there's no argument that
copper
> would be better in the long run.
>
> DJ
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kent Hallsten
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten"
<KHallsten@Governair.com>
>
>
> >
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> >
> > My dad uses PVC pipe do distribute air. No leaks *or*
> > explosions in 12
> > years. Works just great.
>
> I hope it keeps working for your Dad. This PVC is for plumbing and
venting, etc.
> Non-pressure uses.
>
> If you check the REC.WOODWORKING newsgroup you will find a lot of
information and
> opinions on using PVC to supply air. I think it's an un-necessary chance.
> One explosion will send shards of PVC slivers all over. That's the thing
about
> PVC, you'll never know it's true condition until it blows. Please use
steel
> pipe.
>
> Now if you intend to use it (PVC) in a dust collection system that's a bit
different.
> It won't explode but some say it builds up static electricity and can
explode
> the dust. I believe it can be easily grounded.
>
> Kent
>
>
> > This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by
Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more
information on an anti-virus email solution, visit
<http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>.
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 18
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:30:53 AM PST US
> From: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
>
> I don't know, the stuff's rated to 400psi. (This is the really
> thick-walled stuff.) That's a safety factor of more than 3.5 for this
> particular use. There's probably hundreds of feet of the stuff with
> plenty of splices.
>
> An explosion would be pretty "exciting", though. I bet brittleness might
> be a problem in really cold climates. He lives in Florida, though.
>
> Kent Hallsten wrote:
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten"
<KHallsten@Governair.com>
> >
> >
> >>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> >>
> >>My dad uses PVC pipe do distribute air. No leaks *or*
> >>explosions in 12
> >>years. Works just great.
> >
> >
> > I hope it keeps working for your Dad. This PVC is for plumbing and
venting,
> etc. Non-pressure uses.
> >
> > If you check the REC.WOODWORKING newsgroup you will find a lot of
information
> and opinions on using PVC to supply air. I think it's an un-necessary
chance.
> One explosion will send shards of PVC slivers all over. That's the thing
about
> PVC, you'll never know it's true condition until it blows. Please use
steel
> pipe.
> >
> > Now if you intend to use it (PVC) in a dust collection system that's a
bit different.
> It won't explode but some say it builds up static electricity and can
> explode the dust. I believe it can be easily grounded.
> >
> > Kent
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 19
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 01:29:56 PM PST US
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New shop
> From: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten@Governair.com>
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten"
<KHallsten@Governair.com>
>
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> >
> > I don't know, the stuff's rated to 400psi. (This is the really
> > thick-walled stuff.) That's a safety factor of more than 3.5 for this
> > particular use. There's probably hundreds of feet of the stuff with
> > plenty of splices.
> >
> >
>
>
> I read about ABS pipe being approved for compressed air use. Its called
ABS Duraplus.
> It is flexible in that it will crush, whereas PVC would shatter. If you
> do a Google search on "pvc pipe air pressure" it comes up with some
information,
> from OSHA and other groups. Those groups don't recommend it. A tiny nick
> or scratch on PVC can compromise the pipe and kaboom. Also, compressed
air
> releases its energy quicker than water under pressure.
> Well anyway, if your going to use it be careful.
>
> Kent
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 20
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 02:01:34 PM PST US
> From: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
>
> I am simply amazed at the quantity and quality of responses from this
> list to a question like this. Glad I asked!
>
> Mike B. wrote:
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> >
> >
> > I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I
> > was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building
> > the structure (of my design. Yikes!)
> >
> > I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had
> > installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building
> > specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly,
> > what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished
> > should I consider?
> >
> > -Mike.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 21
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 02:02:05 PM PST US
> From: "Lynn & Doris Knoll" <dknoll@cox.net>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Lynn & Doris Knoll"
<dknoll@cox.net>
>
> Mike,
> I just thought of something, how about building a attached "dog house"
with
> lots and lots of insulation for the air compressor. I get so tired of
> hearing that %%$$####@ thing!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> >
> >
> > I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I
> > was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building
> > the structure (of my design. Yikes!)
> >
> > I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had
> > installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building
> > specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly,
> > what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished
> > should I consider?
> >
> > -Mike.
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 22
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 02:02:59 PM PST US
> From: "carl loar" <skycarl@buckeye-express.com>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Survey
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "carl loar"
<skycarl@buckeye-express.com>
>
> Cliff,,, I got one too. Had the same concern. sounds legit though,,,,
> Carl
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Clif Dawson" <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Survey
>
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
> >
> > Has anyone else recieved a request to fill out an
> > attached survey regarding the use of epoxy in
> > aircraft construction from a William R Liston of
> > the V O Baker company? I don't want to open an
> > attachment from an unknown source. It may be
> > perfectly legit. He has provided phone numbers
> > but that doesn't really mean anything.
> >
> > Clif
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 23
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 02:18:22 PM PST US
> From: "John Ford" <Jford@indstate.edu>
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" <Jford@indstate.edu>
>
> Actually, water releases it's energy more quickly than air. The issue
> is one of volume more so than pressure. Water isn't very compressible,
> so there is less energy released as it reaches equilibrium than with
> air, which gets compressed to a tiny fraction of its original volume and
> expands considerably (much like an explosion) reaching equilibrium.
> That's why you always test air tanks with water.
> John
>
> >Also, compressed air releases its energy quicker than water under
> pressure.
> >Well anyway, if your going to use it be careful.
>
>
> John Ford
> john@indstate.edu
> 812-237-8542
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 24
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 02:52:42 PM PST US
> From: "w b evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: new shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "w b evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
>
> Just a thought to throw in, and hope I'm not repeating what someone else
said on
> this thread...
> A new , big shop is nice, and I wish I could have had one, just didn't
want to
> scare off anyone thinking of starting and not starting cause their "space"
isn't
> up to specs.
> You can start and do all your ribs on the kitchen table if you really need
to!
> I built my Piet in a 10x20 ft , below grade basement. Believe me, I
didn't care
> where I was, as long as I was working on that beauty!
> Now it's flying ( well resting in the hanger, covered in snow)
> Ain't life grand!
> walt evans
> NX140DL
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 25
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 04:50:20 PM PST US
> From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips"
<pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
>
> Two things - It's impossible to have too many electrical outlets (of
> sufficient current carrying ability) and it's impossible to have too much
> light. I have also found it useful to hang things from the ceiling joists
> (my workshop is in my basement), such as a come-along to hoist the engine,
> and also to hoist the fuselage while I built the gear under it.
>
> Obviously, you will want to make sure that you can get your project out
once
> completed, and you might want to consider ventilation if you will be doing
> covering or painting in the shop. I have running water in mine which has
> been useful.
>
> Jack
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike B.
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
>
>
> I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I
> was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building
> the structure (of my design. Yikes!)
>
> I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had
> installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building
> specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly,
> what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished
> should I consider?
>
> -Mike.
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 26
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 04:50:20 PM PST US
> From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Survey
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips"
<pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
>
> I received it but haven't replied yet.
>
> Jack
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif
Dawson
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Survey
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
>
> Has anyone else recieved a request to fill out an
> attached survey regarding the use of epoxy in
> aircraft construction from a William R Liston of
> the V O Baker company? I don't want to open an
> attachment from an unknown source. It may be
> perfectly legit. He has provided phone numbers
> but that doesn't really mean anything.
>
> Clif
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 27
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:01:13 PM PST US
> From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips"
<pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
>
> Amen to that. My beer refrigerator in the shop has saved me many a trip
up
> and down the stairs, plus it's a good place to stick all those stickers
you
> collect at OSH and SNF. Another thing I have that is useful is a phone in
> the shop. Saves lots of trips upstairs.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael D
> Cuy
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
> <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>
> And a nice, small color tv and fridge really come in handy too. I don't
> know how many ball games
> and 10 pm news stories I watched while building and sipping.......
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 28
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:03:02 PM PST US
> From: Rcaprd@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 12/10/03 4:02:40 PM Central Standard Time,
dknoll@cox.net
> writes:
>
> << Mike,
> I just thought of something, how about building a attached "dog house"
with
> lots and lots of insulation for the air compressor. I get so tired of
> hearing that %%$$####@ thing! >>
>
> I'm building a new shop, in an old two car garage, and I am DEFINATELY
going
> to locate the air compressor out side. I also have three rows of
flourescent
> lights (the new 1" diameter kind that works in low temperatures) for the
full
> length, each row on a switch. Never enough light, or recepticles.
Concrete
> floor. Electric heat - no explosive fuels. Snap-On calender.
Hummm....does
> anyone know where I can get an airplane calender, with bikini babes ?
>
> Chuck Gantzer
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 29
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:26:17 PM PST US
> From: Roger & Kathy Green <rgreen@libby.org>
> Subject: Fwd: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Roger & Kathy Green
<rgreen@libby.org>
>
>
> Shop thoughts:
>
> I put my air compressor in the bathroom, keeps the noise out of the shop.
> I put a lighted pilot switch by the door - one for the compressor and one
> for the water heater.
> I put in a lot of receptacle, 5 per circuit, but put every other one on a
> different circuit.
> I have built two shop now. I always make the walk through door 3 feet 6
> inches or 4 feet wide. You will take a lot of things through that door.
> I have seen barn door tracks used for light duty over head trolley
> system. Put one near each side of your shop, running the full length and
a
> another one attach to a light beam hanging between the first two. Put a
> chain hoist on the travelling car and now you can pick up that new Delta
> Unisaw (with 52 inch fence) from the back of your pickup and place
anywhere
> in the shop!
>
> If crime is a problem in your area, place windows high, they will let
light
> in and keep prying eyes out.
>
> Good luck - we want to see picture later!
>
> Random ROG
> Libby, Montana
> First rib still in jig.
>
>
> >pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 30
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:01:31 PM PST US
> From: "Bert Conoly" <bconoly@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop and a GREAT x-mas present for our
military
> heros!
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Bert Conoly"
<bconoly@earthlink.net>
>
> This is the best thread I've seen in months.!
>
> BUT , ya'll go to http://www.heromiles.org/ I just saw it on Fox News.
>
> This is a nice way to donate frequent flyer miles to our troops to get
some
> home for a visit.
> I just donated all mine for Delta and US Air is in as of tonight according
> to the news - will donate them. too,
>
> Best , Bert
> (who just relocated his GN to a brand new hangar - hope to fly in 3
months)
> See ya!
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger & Kathy Green" <rgreen@libby.org>
> Subject: Fwd: Pietenpol-List: New shop
>
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Roger & Kathy Green
> <rgreen@libby.org>
> >
> >
> > Shop thoughts:
> >
> > I put my air compressor in the bathroom, keeps the noise out of the
shop.
> > I put a lighted pilot switch by the door - one for the compressor and
one
> > for the water heater.
> > I put in a lot of receptacle, 5 per circuit, but put every other one on
a
> > different circuit.
> > I have built two shop now. I always make the walk through door 3 feet 6
> > inches or 4 feet wide. You will take a lot of things through that door.
> > I have seen barn door tracks used for light duty over head trolley
> > system. Put one near each side of your shop, running the full length
and
> a
> > another one attach to a light beam hanging between the first two. Put a
> > chain hoist on the travelling car and now you can pick up that new Delta
> > Unisaw (with 52 inch fence) from the back of your pickup and place
> anywhere
> > in the shop!
> >
> > If crime is a problem in your area, place windows high, they will let
> light
> > in and keep prying eyes out.
> >
> > Good luck - we want to see picture later!
> >
> > Random ROG
> > Libby, Montana
> > First rib still in jig.
> >
> >
> > >pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> >
> >
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Another fuselage width question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: At7000ft@aol.com
I have searched the archives for anything concerning widening the Piet
fuselage to get a wider rear cockpit. Most people widen the entire fuselage (to
26
-28 inches) to get the rear seatback width to 23 or 24 outside width.
My question is wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper to not change the front of
the fuselage at all, make the rear searback width 24 instead of 22" and bend
the longerons a little more back to the tail? Even if the firewall width is
26", and the rear seat 24", the longerons still need to be bent back to 1 1/8"
at
the tail.
Sorry if this is a stupid question.
Rick Holland
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Another fuselage width question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Andimaxd@aol.com
Rick:
We did just that, and havent hit any major snags yet. We widened ours a full
four inches...
Max
Message 8
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| Subject: | Pietenpol as a School Project |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Bruce __" <bruce___@hotmail.com>
Hello All,
I'm about to enter the fray, but before I do, I have a few questions, and
would appreciate the wisdom of the group.
First a little background info: I teach six-grade science and am planning
on building a Piet in my classroom. My plans are to build the tail
feathers, ribs, and fuse sides before taking it home to finish. I have
experience with building R/C models, musical instruments, a couple of small
boats, furniture, my house, etc, and I have long wanted to build an
airplane, so this is not a spur of the moment idea.
Thanks to small grant, I have about $600 to start, and I thought I could buy
the plans, glue, and wood for the tail feathers. Anyway, on to the
questions:
I'm trying to decide which glue would be best to use in a classroom. I'm a
little concerned about allergic sensitivity with T-88, and my experience
with epoxy is such that I've had a few failures that leave me a little
hesitant to use it. Given that, I'm considering using Aerolite, but I'm
wondering what kind of odor it has? Is there a sensitivity issue with it,
and/or does it have a strong odor? I don't want my kids getting sick, and
all it would take is one negative experience to get my project booted out of
school.
I'd like to be able to give rides, but that front cockpit looks like it
would be a bear to get in and out of. I checked out the plans for a front
door, but wonder if it is structurally sound. I couldn't find much about it
in the archives. I know it will add weight, but is there any consensus on
this modification?
Before plunging in, I'd like to try a Piet on for size. Is there anyone in
southern Ohio who would let me look at a real live Piet and sit in the
cockpit? I'm not asking for a free ride, I just want to see if I fit and
how hard it is to get into the front cockpit. (I'm 5' 10" and 225 lbs.)
Thanks for considering my questions,
Bruce
Cell phone switch rules are taking effect find out more here.
http://special.msn.com/msnbc/consumeradvocate.armx
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Another fuselage width question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "catdesign@intergate.com" <catdesign@intergate.com>
Rick there are no stupid questions. Keep asking.
I recall reading somewhere of a person who widened the back seat of his Sky
Scout (isnt that what the single place Pietenpol is called?) fuselage to 24
inches. I dont believe he had any problems building it . He did say he had
to steam or soak the longerons before bending them together. Wish I could
remember who it was or where I read it. Think long and hard before you decide
to change from the plans. If you widen the whole fuselage, you will have to
buy more plywood. The best thing about the 24-inch width is you can use a half
sheet of -inch plywood (Aircraft grade Mahogany and Birch is around $230 for a
full sheet). The seats as well as the firewall are all 24-inches wide so
adding one inch all the way forward of the back would mean you will need more
1/8-inch plywood as well (about $130 and $90 a sheet). I think the best idea
for widening is to keep the fuselage 24-inches wide all the way back to the
rear seat then taper. Just wrap a towel around where you want it to bend poor
some hot water on it and wait. Then gently and slowly make the bend re-
steaming as necessary. It would really stink to break a longeron at this point
in the construction. Its just my opinion and I am not an engineer but cant
imagine this would change the way the plane flies. Most importantly think long
and hard about any change you decide to make. Keep asking around and I bet you
can find someone who has already done what you are proposing. That is the
great thing about building a 75-year-old design. If you really really really
have to have it wider go ahead its your plane you can build it however you
want too. Just be repaired for some negative comments from people who believe
you should not change anything at all.
On my fuselage, I built it 23-3/4-inches wide to the back of the front seat
(before gluing on the 1/8-inch plywood sides). This way I could use a half
sheet of 1/4-inch plywood for the floor. I then overlapped the 1/8-inch sides,
having made sure that my height at the maximum section was just a hair under 24-
inches tall (with the bottom 1/4-inch ply glued on). This way I could get the
plywood pieces for the fuselage sides from one sheet of 1/8-inch and half a
sheet of 1/4-inch plywood for the floor.
As to the fuselage width at the tail, I think the drawings never really say how
wide to make it. If it does please let me know. I made my fuselage taper to 1-
inch wide to match up with the rudder. However, if you look at the drawing for
the steel fuselage it tapers down to 3/4 diameter tubing so who knows how wide
it should be. As near as I can tell, builders have been making it anywhere
from 1 to 1-1/4 wide.
Chris T.
Sacramento, Ca
Quoting At7000ft@aol.com:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: At7000ft@aol.com
>
> I have searched the archives for anything concerning widening the Piet
> fuselage to get a wider rear cockpit. Most people widen the entire fuselage
> (to 26
> -28 inches) to get the rear seatback width to 23 or 24 outside width.
>
> My question is wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper to not change the front of
>
> the fuselage at all, make the rear searback width 24 instead of 22" and bend
>
> the longerons a little more back to the tail? Even if the firewall width is
> 26", and the rear seat 24", the longerons still need to be bent back to 1
> 1/8" at
> the tail.
>
> Sorry if this is a stupid question.
>
> Rick Holland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------
Message 10
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| Subject: | Sport Pilot guess |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk@hotmail.com>
What's the odds that the Sport Pilot gets "unveiled" at the Kitty Hawk
celebration next week? I can see it happening.
Robert Haines
Du Quoin, Illinois
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Another fuselage width question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: At7000ft@aol.com
Chris
This is exactly what I was proposing. However in searching the archives I can't
find anyone who has done it this way, they all widen from the firewall back.
Has anyone built their fuselage this way?
Thanks
Rick Holland
> I think the best idea
> for widening is to keep the fuselage 24-inches wide all the way back to the
> rear seat then taper. Just wrap a towel around where you want it to bend poor
> some hot water on it and wait. Then gently and slowly make
> the bend re-
> steaming as necessary.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Sport Pilot guess |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "w b evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
That thought crossed my mind too. Sure hope so. Would sure give GA a shot
in the arm.
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk@hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sport Pilot guess
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Robert Haines"
<robertsjunk@hotmail.com>
>
> What's the odds that the Sport Pilot gets "unveiled" at the Kitty Hawk
> celebration next week? I can see it happening.
>
>
> Robert Haines
> Du Quoin, Illinois
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Sport Pilot guess |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com
Bob,
I didn't realize you nawtherners were such dreamers. Never hatchi. Aren't you
kids old and ugly enough to know that the feds won't act unless there is a
big bonfire is under their (ask me no questions). Besides the EAA, AOPA, NAACP,
VA, FAA, CAA, NRA, WPA, CCC and any other A organization won't want to share
the Wright moment with anyone else. To heck with the thousands of old, tried
and true pilots, who just want to get out there on the afternoons when it is
pleasant weather and FLY for their own pleasure fully knowing their physical
limitations, even though Oak City quacks don't care about their reasoning.
As for odds: Not being a gambling man and not sure if it is legal to make a
wager on the net, I will put up $100 and give you 5to1.
Corky in La
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol as a School Project |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dan john <ballmell@yahoo.com>
Hi Bruce,Thought I would throw in my two cents worth
on glue.I really dislike Aerolite because the stuff
gets just like glass.Really really hard. I have seen a
lot of Aerolite joints break.We all have our favorite
glue but this is the last one I would choose. John P.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol as a School Project |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com
In a message dated 12/11/03 10:27:52 AM Central Standard Time,
bruce___@hotmail.com writes:
<< I teach six-grade science and am planning on building a Piet in my
classroom. >>
Hi Bruce !
Why wasn't there any teachers like you when I was in school ?? !! This is
just the kind of project that will spur the imagination of those kids !!
<<I'm considering using Aerolite, but I'm wondering what kind of odor it has?
>>
My experience with Aerolite is that it has a similar odor as T88, only it
has failed a test that I did with it. I use T88 exclusively now, and have no
allergic reactions. I would suggest that everyone use surgical gloves, and
maybe even a plastic apron. I know how messy kids can be !!
<<I'd like to be able to give rides, but that front cockpit looks like it
would be a bear to get in and out of. I checked out the plans for a front door,
but wonder if it is structurally sound. I couldn't find much about it in the
archives. I know it will add weight, but is there any consensus on this
modification?>>
I am 6' tall, 205 lbs, and I have just a little bit of trouble getting in
and out of the front pit, and I still have the 'X' cables on the right side
of the cockpit. Getting in and out of the back pit is routine. Adding a front
door adds complexity, weight, and weakens the structure. Forget about the
door.
<<(I'm 5' 10" and 225 lbs.)>>
Terry B. - isn't he about your size ?
Chuck Gantzer
Wichita KS
NX770CG
"From trees & rags, to Stick & Rudder...Pietenpol's are Forever !!
Message 16
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@compuserve.com>
Use Scissor trusses instead of flat bottomed trusses so you have more head
room. Head room becomes a big issue.
Where is this located? You may want to put plastic tube in the convrete for
a radiant heating system.
Chris Bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: New shop
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
>
>
> I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I
> was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building
> the structure (of my design. Yikes!)
>
> I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had
> installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building
> specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly,
> what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished
> should I consider?
>
> -Mike.
>
>
Message 17
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@compuserve.com>
It is best to use iron pipe or copper for the air so it cools the air and
allows the water to condense out into droplets. Moisture traps can only
trap drops, not vapor. If you don't get the moisture out in the pipe, then
it will surely condense when the pressure drops as it comes out of whatever
you are using the air for ie. into your paint or air tools etc.
PVC is inherently poor since it is not resistant to oil which inevitably
gets entrained in air unless you have an oilless compressor. It would be
bad to have a PVC line burst when you are in the shop.
Chris Bobka
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd@ssa.gov>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New shop
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd@ssa.gov>
>
> What a bunch of great suggestions! This list is just great. I have been
> thinking about my dream shop a lot lately and still picked up some great
> ideas.
> My shop will have a wood floor, so I can put electric outlets and sawdust
> suction system in the floor. Wood is cheaper but more work than cement.
> One suggestion on the master switch by the door, put it high, at least 5
1/2
> feet, keeps it away from little hands.
> As we are talking dream shop here, it seems during construction it would
be
> easy to plumb a PVC air system through the shop and have outlets for air
as
> well as electricity.
> Skip
>
>
Message 18
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@compuserve.com>
Ideally, on the morning of day two of the concrete, cover the entire slab
with a continuous puddle of water and keep it full for a month. All the
conrete must be covered. This will slow the curing and allow highest
strength to be developed.
second best is to hose the slab down and then completely cover the slab with
plastic sheet to keep the water from evaporating. Hose it down everyday
and keep it drenched, especially in areas in the sun. Poly plastic is
cheap.
My 4000 PSI (30 day) compressive strength rated concrete was at about 3000
PSI at 30 days, but then tested at 5800 at 60 days. SO it was worth it.
chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" <bike.mike@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New shop
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mike <bike.mike@verizon.net>
>
> I think a lot of the guys on this list are jealous of your new shop, Mike.
I
> know I am.
> One thing that often gets overlooked in shop space is the floor. New
concrete
> needs to be sealed to keep it from chalking and putting cement dust in
> everything. If you seal it with a light colored floor treatment, such as
> white or very light gray, it will be much easier to find small things
you've
> dropped and the place will be brighter for a given amount of lighting.
The
> inevitable workplace safety inspection of a new government hangar space I
> worked in once discovered that the white painted floor saved nearly 30% on
> lighting costs.
>
> Mike Hardaway
>
>
> "Mike B." wrote:
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> >
> > I'm building a new 30'x40'x13' shop (slab should be pured next week.) I
> > was wondering if there are things that I should consider while building
> > the structure (of my design. Yikes!)
> >
> > I thought this would be a good opportunity to avoid any "I wish I had
> > installed a such-n-such" situations. What kind of airplane-building
> > specific things might I consider before I get started? Most importantly,
> > what kind of things that can't be done once the building is finished
> > should I consider?
> >
> > -Mike.
> >
>
>
Message 19
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@compuserve.com>
PVC is excellent for the vacuum system. You can run a bare copper wire
through it to collect the static electricity. Just make sure it is
grounded.
Sawdust is like grain in a grain elevator. When it is on the move and
suspended it is highly explosive, just like the new MOAB they tested.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten@Governair.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New shop
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten"
<KHallsten@Governair.com>
>
>
> >
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike B." <piet@pointdx.com>
> >
> > My dad uses PVC pipe do distribute air. No leaks *or*
> > explosions in 12
> > years. Works just great.
>
> I hope it keeps working for your Dad. This PVC is for plumbing and
venting, etc. Non-pressure uses.
>
> If you check the REC.WOODWORKING newsgroup you will find a lot of
information and opinions on using PVC to supply air. I think it's an
un-necessary chance. One explosion will send shards of PVC slivers all over.
That's the thing about PVC, you'll never know it's true condition until it
blows. Please use steel pipe.
>
> Now if you intend to use it (PVC) in a dust collection system that's a bit
different. It won't explode but some say it builds up static electricity and
can explode the dust. I believe it can be easily grounded.
>
> Kent
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Canadian myths |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dave rowe <rowed044@shaw.ca>
I think I'm leaning towards Bear, not a lot of beavers here. We do have
lots of cougars, but they don't want to sit still while you shave their
fur. . . Still waiting for the wife to finish chewing the rawhide for
the flying wires!!
Oscar Zuniga wrote:
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
>
> Dave wrote-
>
> >Here in Canada all we need is a spotlight and a whistle.
>
> Truly the spirit of simple homebuilding, eh?
>
> >We have twice the land and 1/10th the population
> >we figure hey, what are the chances of hitting one another.
>
> C'mon; you expect us to believe those numbers? Canada actually has only
> 1.073 times the total area (3,855,103 sq. mi. versus 3,593,765 sq. mi. for
> the U.S.) and much of that is water, which you guys fly over as readily as
> you do over land. And as far as population, you actually only have nearly
> 1/11th the population (2001 figures... 31,021,000 Canadians versus
> 284,797,000 U.S. citizens). But you've gotta figure that a good fraction of
> those Canadians are Quebecois and you know they're much more likely to hit
> one another ;o)
>
> >I suppose you guys don't use hand-carved props held together with
> >Moose Glue!
>
> Um... don't rule it out. We used to have this guy called "The Fisherman"
> here on the list. Check the archives for some interesting reading ;o) Now
> I guess the next thing you'll start with is that you're going to tan some
> beaver hides to make the leather for the coaming around your cockpits, eh?
>
> Holiday greetings to our flying friends up north!
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
> Cell phone switch rules are taking effect find out more here.
> http://special.msn.com/msnbc/consumeradvocate.armx
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Another fuselage width question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
It seems to me that there is no "right way".
I did mine the way I did to keep the side curve gentle
as in the original. On drawing out a plan view with it
24 to the rear seat back, I didn't like it, to much curve
for my taste. I also felt that it would put too much stress
on the small amount of cross bracing in the top of the
foreward area, trying to pull it apart.All that steaming
gives me the willys. To much work! Also that much
more curve in the turtledeck sides means a lot of
fiddling with the stringers to make them look right.
Clif
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: At7000ft@aol.com
>
> Chris
>
> This is exactly what I was proposing. However in searching the archives I
can't find anyone who has done it this way, they all widen from the firewall
back. Has anyone built their fuselage this way?
>
> Thanks
>
> Rick Holland
>
> > I think the best idea
> > for widening is to keep the fuselage 24-inches wide all the way back to
the
> > rear seat then taper. Just wrap a towel around where you want it to
bend poor
> > some hot water on it and wait. Then gently and slowly make
> > the bend re-
> > steaming as necessary.
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