Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:00 AM - Re: Weight & Balance (Peter W Johnson)
2. 07:20 AM - Re: Re: High density altitude airport (Rick Holland)
3. 07:33 AM - control cables (Ralph)
4. 07:50 AM - Re: control cables (Rcaprd@aol.com)
5. 08:08 AM - Re: control cables ()
6. 02:41 PM - Long Newguy Introduction (Tim Verthein)
7. 03:38 PM - Re: Long Newguy Introduction (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
8. 04:03 PM - 41CC is headed south (Oscar Zuniga)
9. 04:04 PM - Cutout at tailpost, any great tips? (Scott Schreiber)
10. 04:58 PM - Re: 41CC is headed south (walt evans)
11. 05:17 PM - Re: Cutout at tailpost, any great tips? (Ben Ramler)
12. 06:21 PM - Re: Cutout at tailpost, any great tips? (Dick Navratil)
13. 07:16 PM - control cables (Oscar Zuniga)
14. 08:25 PM - Re: Cutout at tailpost, any great tips? (Scott Schreiber)
15. 08:46 PM - Re: Re: High density altitude airport (Clif Dawson)
Message 1
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Subject: | Weight & Balance |
Walt/Greg,
I moved the wing back about three inches today. It made a difference
(forward) of about five inches. I can now make up my front cabane struts and
be happy. I'll do another complete W&B after the struts are fitted.
Many thanks
Peter.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of walt evans
Sent: Thursday, 23 November 2006 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight & Balance
Peter,
Sure, I guess I can put on this reply.
I didn't make it up. Someone in this group or the Fisher Flying Products
group shared it with me.
See if it downloads all four.
I did four different setups, for all possible modes. Everything from max
plane, to light pilot with heavy fuel, to heavy pilot with low fuel.
It's a great little program, just highlite the square and change the value.
Hit enter and the bottom line changes.
I used the prop hub tip as the datum. So the distance from there to the
leading edge plus the "window" on the wing , gave the final result.
Say you want to add an instrument,,,,you can "add" it on paper and see the
result, before you put it on.
If you're designing a new plane, you put the people in the seats measuring
at where the navel is in the seat. (actually they call out something else,
but this is a family group) :^)
Have fun
walt evans
NX140DL
"Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you"
Ben Franklin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka@bigpond.net.au>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 4:34 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Weight & Balance
> <vk3eka@bigpond.net.au>
>
> Walt,
>
> Thats what I am hoping. I would appreciate a copy of your spreadsheet. I
> have made one myself but would be good to see how you have done it.
>
> Thanks
>
> Peter.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of walt evans
> Sent: Thursday, 23 November 2006 5:48 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight & Balance
>
>
> Greg,
> Nah, forward.
>
> Peter,
> Don't think of it as moving the wing back, but rather moving the fuselage
> forward.
> So the imaginary point , on the wing, that the whole plane would teeter
> on, before moving, would be in an exact spot.
> After you moved the fuselage forward, now you'd have to pick a spot
> further
>
> forward to balance everything.
> hope this makes sense.
> If you have Windows Excel I can send you a small program, given to me,
> where you can just plug in all the numbers and see the final result to any
> plane
> walt evans
> NX140DL
>
> "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you"
> Ben Franklin
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal@comcast.net>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 8:15 AM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight & Balance
>
>
>>
>> The reason for moving the wing is to change the location of the airfoil's
>> center of lift in relation to the aircraft's center of gravity.
>> To answer your question, the aircraft cg will move aft when you move the
>> wing aft but the airfoil center of lift will move aft much more than the
>> cg.
>>
>> Greg C.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka@bigpond.net.au>
>> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 6:32 AM
>> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Weight & Balance
>>
>>
>>> <vk3eka@bigpond.net.au>
>>>
>>> Hi Guys,
>>>
>>> This may be a dumb question but which way does the C of G move if you
>>> move
>>> the wing BACK! Does it follow the wing movement, i.e. move the wing back
>>> CG
>>> moves aft, move the wing forward CG moves forward?
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Peter
>>> Wonthaggi, Australia
>>> http://www.cpc-world.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> 10:36 PM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> 10:36 PM
>
>
> --
> 10:36 PM
>
>
>
--
10:36 PM
--
5:41 PM
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: High density altitude airport |
Would think that wing loading would be more relevent than wing area.
Rick
On 11/21/06, Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> Don't forget the difference in wing area.
>
> And don't forget, that 100 hp Lyc or Continental
> started out life at the factory door with only 80
> true horsepower.
>
> Put those two together and what do you get?
>
> Clif
>
> *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: High density altitude airport
>
> My airport is at 6840, over 10,000 density altitude on a hot day. Am going
> with a Corvair (100 HP), will let you know if it's enough. I have flown 150s
> (also 100 HP and 1000lbs empty weight) many times with a passenger from
> similiar altitude airports and did ok so it should be enough.
>
> Rick
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
Message 3
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|
I am at the "bolt it together and string the cables before covering" stage.
When I remove the wings, how do I disassemble the aileron cables through the
pulleys in the center section after I have installed the ends for fastening
to the control stick?
Carol and Ralph
Raymond
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: control cables |
In a message dated 11/23/2006 9:34:41 AM Central Standard Time,
ralphhsd@itctel.com writes:
When I remove the wings, how do I disassemble the aileron cables through the
pulleys in the center section after I have installed the ends for fastening
to the control stick?
Ralph,
Don't terminate the ends of the cables, till final assembly.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 5
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|
Another alternative is to remove the pully wheel but that is a pain in
the ass.it can be done but harder to put back together especially after
covering.Where my pullies are located at an inspection hole made in the
fabric using half a cover cap to cover half the hole.If you blow up the
second pic you can see the half hole covers.You have to have small hands
to take it apart and put it back together but it can be done.Ya just
snag some kid that's runnin around the field and bribe him to help ya
out.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Rcaprd@aol.com
Sent: November 23, 2006 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: control cables
In a message dated 11/23/2006 9:34:41 AM Central Standard Time,
ralphhsd@itctel.com writes:
When I remove the wings, how do I disassemble the aileron cables
through the
pulleys in the center section after I have installed the ends
for fastening
to the control stick?
Ralph,
Don't terminate the ends of the cables, till final assembly.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 6
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Subject: | Long Newguy Introduction |
Hi All!
Been lurking for some time now, figured I should stick my hand out and
say Howdy! I tend to get winded, so better grab some more food and
relax....
Tim is the name, my wife is Ronna, and we're in Bovey Minnesota, just 7
miles up the Iron Range from Grand Rapids, and about 70 miles NW of
Duluth. I always sign off as "Tim in Bovey" on the various lists I
belong to to avoid confusion with the plethora of other Tims out there.
Our aviation interests go back a long ways. Dad was a PP, hasn't flown
for years now, he's 78. Ronna grew up in Roundup, MT, with a close
family friend who owned/operated the airport there and they used to fly
a lot. I spent tons of time as a kid thru teen years flying with Dad
in 120, 140, 172, a Mooney and a T-Craft (those are the ones I can
remember anyway). I have always wanted to get my PP but due to many
things, mostly time, money and medical issues, never did more than a
few hours of dual for the fun of it. I'd been watching the LSP develop
over the past few years and did a big YIPEEE! when it went thru. So,
we are both intending on getting LSP tickets in the near future. In
the meantime....
We've deicded to build airplanes. Attracted by the greatly reduced
cost compared to buying a certified plane, the fact that we can do our
own repairs/maintenence, and that we can spread the cost over time,
buying what we need as we build, no financing is going to be necessary.
All in all, a good deal! We decided to build a Zenith CH-701, all
aluminum STOL plane, after researching tons and tons of planes/kits.
We went to the Zenith workshop in October, got some demo flights in,
and built the rudder, and we're ready to proceed. I figured minimum 2+
years to completion. Haven't decided yet, but leaning toward Jabiru
power, as I like the concept better than the Rotax, and don't want to
go Corvair with this plane for several reasons. Anyway....
Somewhere along the way in the past couple months I discovered the
Pietenpol, and it's really grabbed me by the..well..you know the
phrase....ordered the info pack from Don, read a ton of magazine
articles, AND about 70% of the digests for this list (just a year to go
and I'm all caught up with you guys). So, anyway, we've decided to
build a Piet too, at the same time. When we're saving up cash, or
hiding indoors because it's 40 below zero out in the garage and we
don't want to be working on the Zenith, we can be in the basement
making ribs and tail feathers. I built a lot of R/C and C/L models in
my day, and it will be nice to work in 1:1 scale! I'm already thinking
Corvair power for the Piet because....
I also happen to be a Corvair driver. My Son is too. I have a '64, he
has 2 65's. I drive mine as a daily driver except in the worst of
winter and also autocross it. I'm thinking along the lines of a
complete, ready to run Corvair from flycorvair, simply because they, to
me, are a heck of a good deal, and I have complete faith in the
powerplant, and am familier with repair/upkeep for them.
So, that's my story. I'm sure we'll have lots of questions as time
goes on. It appears there are some grey areas in the plans, and I'm
sure I'll make a tweak here or there myself as I bet most of you do.
We're regular Oshkosh attendees, and excited about the Brodhead event
too. We have a local EAA chapter that's pretty active. I haven't been
able to hook up with them yet....busy busy busy...but will soon. I
figure I better get on the waiting list for a hanger over in Grand
Rapids, too, since it's about a 2 year wait and we'll need some serious
space by then!
Can anyone recommend some good books about the Pietenpol, and wood
plane building in general? I have a few already, but I bet there's
more out there. We're prepared for projects that will take time, but
be a great husband/wife adventure! And we'll be able to get Dad's
trusty Shopsmith out of mothballs (anyone else remember the Shopsmith?)
BTW, I too was concerned about fiting in a Piet, as I was about a 701
for that matter. I'm 6'2". A year ago I weighed 290. When I decided
it was time to fly, get healthy, get my BP under control, and stop
being pooped out by the time I got to the top of the stairs....I've got
myself down to 185! Best way to improve several things, health,
autocross handling in a Corvair, and flight charasterics!
Most fun I've ever had flying, was riding with the Red Baron Squadron
(yes, the Pizza guys) in their Stearman. They were here for a
promotional event (I spose I should mention...I'm the morning radio
show host in Grand Rapids..so I get all the media perks..I've been on
the air somewhere for 31 years now....in GR for 19...check us out at
http://www.kozyradio.com you can listen to some morning show podcasts
if you're up to it) Anyway, when I got to the airport to fly with
them..the pilot took one look at me and said "Not till this afternoon"
They had just arrived after about a 60 mile flight, and their tanks
were almost full. With me at about 290 back then...they wouldn't stunt
with that much weight! So had to come back 4 hours later after they had
done a bunch of rides for kids and whatnot..so the planes were
lighter....but got the full treatment....hammerhead stall, loops,
rolls, wingover..it was GREAT! I knew it would be interesting before we
took off, as he was fitting the parachute to my butt and explaing how
to work it..he said "If I say 'bailout! bailout! bailout!' 3 times like
that, I mean it". What a thrill THAT was!
If you're *really* got time to kill, have a look at my web page at:
http://www.edselmotors.com
(yes, we also own an Edsel)
There a bunch of Corvair stuff there, and lots of other time killing
stuff. I plan on adding a flying section eventually. I have a teensey
weensey bit of flying stuff still posted at my ancient old web page at:
http://www.uslink.net/~hepcats/planes.html
Tim in Bovey
==
You *can* repair a flip-flop with a capacitor!
==
Cheap talk?
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Long Newguy Introduction |
In a message dated 11/23/2006 5:42:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
minoxphotographer@yahoo.com writes:
http://www.edselmotors.com
Hi Tim,
Like you I been watching and reading about the Piet since I first saw it on
a TV special, cant remember which , but like you it grabbed me and I was
captivated by it. Funny thing is that I look at the 172 but my interests always
go back to the Piet.
I finally bit the bullet and got a set of plans in May of this year and have
been deeply involved in research, really enjoying visiting other builders
and owners across the country, taking pics and asking questions. Although I have
not begun my build as of yet I am doing the reading got Tony's books real
informative and full of great build tips. Chucks DVD is also a good resource.
The good news is that there is a bunch of support and help here.
Best of luck in your build!
John
Hey really loved the Edsel. Thanks
Message 8
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Subject: | 41CC is headed south |
Well, tomorrow (Friday) is the big day. The airplane is outside on the
trailer, hitched up and ready to go down to Zapata County Airport where the
wings have been quietly resting in a hangar for a bit over two years now
(yes, two years!). I have all the tools, hardware, wing struts, everything
ready to roll. Tomorrow I'll trailer the airplane down and reattach the
wings and try to get them re-rigged in preparation for a new W&B and annual.
Everything is ready.
Something to give thanks for, you can be sure! Also want to give thanks for
Corky, Mikee, Chuck, Walt, Shad, Dick, Doc, Tim, Jack, Sterling, and
everybody else who has coaxed me along for two years during the repair and
rebuild. You guys are great, and so is this list.
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
_________________________________________________________________
View Athletes Collections with Live Search
http://sportmaps.live.com/index.html?source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=MGAC01
Message 9
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Subject: | Cutout at tailpost, any great tips? |
I have my fuse sides done! http://www.subarubrat.com/misc/pietfuse3.jpg
And I was wondering if there is any great trick to use to cut the
"wedge" out at the tail post where they join?
-Scott
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: 41CC is headed south |
Oscar,
Good for you. Keep us posted on the progress. Us "nawtherners" are in awe of
you guys down South for two things,,,warm weather,,,and
Corky's Shrimp Gumbo.
Hope this post finds all members of the group and their families well and
happy after their Dinner.
walt evans
NX140DL
"Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you"
Ben Franklin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:01 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 41CC is headed south
> <taildrags@hotmail.com>
>
> Well, tomorrow (Friday) is the big day. The airplane is outside on the
> trailer, hitched up and ready to go down to Zapata County Airport where
> the wings have been quietly resting in a hangar for a bit over two years
> now (yes, two years!). I have all the tools, hardware, wing struts,
> everything ready to roll. Tomorrow I'll trailer the airplane down and
> reattach the wings and try to get them re-rigged in preparation for a new
> W&B and annual. Everything is ready.
>
> Something to give thanks for, you can be sure! Also want to give thanks
> for Corky, Mikee, Chuck, Walt, Shad, Dick, Doc, Tim, Jack, Sterling, and
> everybody else who has coaxed me along for two years during the repair and
> rebuild. You guys are great, and so is this list.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> View Athlete's Collections with Live Search
> http://sportmaps.live.com/index.html?source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=MGAC01
>
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Cutout at tailpost, any great tips? |
Nice shot Scott! Wow is the only thing I can say! How roughly did that take
you? just curious?=0A=0ABen=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Sc
ott Schreiber <got22b@SubaruBrat.com>=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0A
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:02:52 PM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Cut
out at tailpost, any great tips?=0A=0A=0AI have my fuse sides done! http://
www.subarubrat.com/misc/pietfuse3.jpg And I was wondering if there is any g
reat trick to use to cut the "wedge" out at the tail post where they join?
-========================
=============0A=0A=0A =0A__________________________
.yahoo.com
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Cutout at tailpost, any great tips? |
Scott
Thats a job that seems simple, but it's one of those technical things
that has to be done right. You will need to make a straight line on
your jig and block the fuse in place. Find the center line of all the
cross members that you have installed so far. Make sure each member
and the tail post falls exactly on the centerline. Then there are a
couple of ways to proceed. with the halves together, make a mark on
each half to rough cut with a hand plane or use a small saw. Re-fit the
halves and if they are somewhat close, use a belt from a belt sander,
cut open, 80 grit and pull it back and forth to final fit. Others may
have diffrent methods of sanding or cutting but there is no shortcut on
getting your fuse trued up straight.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Schreiber
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:02 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cutout at tailpost, any great tips?
I have my fuse sides done!
http://www.subarubrat.com/misc/pietfuse3.jpg And I was wondering if
there is any great trick to use to cut the "wedge" out at the tail post
where they join?
-Scott
Message 13
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|
Ralph wrote-
>When I remove the wings, how do I disassemble the aileron cables
>through the pulleys in the center section after I have installed the ends
>for fastening to the control stick?
Not sure what you're asking, but I will tell you that the wings are
presently removed from 41CC and it was very convenient that Corky provided
access covers and cable links just at the wing roots to allow the aileron
cables to be disconnected and the wings removed without pulling the cables
through the pulleys. Harder to describe than to do, but I can take pictures
if it would help and if we're talking about the same thing.
To disconnect the wings, I cut the safety wires from the turnbuckles at the
bellcranks down at the joystick in the cockpit, backed the tension off the
aileron cables, removed the inspection covers on the undersides of the
wings, disconnected the aileron cable connector links (like motorcycle chain
links), and voila-! that, plus the pitot tube line, and the wings came right
off. There are links connecting the two aileron cables plus the cable that
connects the port and starboard ailerons across the top.
FWIW, Corky cautioned me about not removing one wing at a time. He
recommended that I lower both wingtips to the ground first, then remove one
wing and the other. If you remove one wing at a time you may end up with
the airplane tipping over onto one wingtip. Fortunately, we had lots of
cardboard boxes full of stored stuff to stack up under the wings to support
them while we worked.
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Cutout at tailpost, any great tips? |
The same is true with giant scale R/C, I am fine with the process, what
I was reffering to in specific is the actual cutting of the tail post
area. When you talking about 1/2x1/4 spruce and 1/4 by 1/4 balsa it is a
simple matter of a razor saw. I was wondering if some great method had
been worked out.
-Scott
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Navratil
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutout at tailpost, any great tips?
Scott
Thats a job that seems simple, but it's one of those technical things
that has to be done right. You will need to make a straight line on
your jig and block the fuse in place. Find the center line of all the
cross members that you have installed so far. Make sure each member
and the tail post falls exactly on the centerline. Then there are a
couple of ways to proceed. with the halves together, make a mark on
each half to rough cut with a hand plane or use a small saw. Re-fit the
halves and if they are somewhat close, use a belt from a belt sander,
cut open, 80 grit and pull it back and forth to final fit. Others may
have diffrent methods of sanding or cutting but there is no shortcut on
getting your fuse trued up straight.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Schreiber
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:02 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cutout at tailpost, any great tips?
I have my fuse sides done!
http://www.subarubrat.com/misc/pietfuse3.jpg And I was wondering if
there is any great trick to use to cut the "wedge" out at the tail post
where they join?
-Scott
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: High density altitude airport |
Of course it would. You need the two plane's areas
before you can calculate loadings. And loading depends
on the gross weight of each aircraft. Notice I did not
say maximum gross.
Since you've got access to a 150 why not measure
the wing next time you're out and go from there?
At this point we know that we have a heavier AC with
80 HP minus age and density factors against a
lighter one with 100 HP minus the same factors. We
have a pretty good idea of the wing size of the Piet,
depending on any changes you might or might not
decide to make. Now we need the wing area of the
150 after which we can begin making comparisons.
Clif
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Holland
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: High density altitude airport
Would think that wing loading would be more relevent than wing area.
Rick
On 11/21/06, Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca > wrote:
Don't forget the difference in wing area.
And don't forget, that 100 hp Lyc or Continental
started out life at the factory door with only 80
true horsepower.
Put those two together and what do you get?
Clif
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: High density altitude airport
My airport is at 6840, over 10,000 density altitude on a hot day.
Am going with a Corvair (100 HP), will let you know if it's enough. I
have flown 150s (also 100 HP and 1000lbs empty weight) many times with a
passenger from similiar altitude airports and did ok so it should be
enough.
Rick
www.aeroelectric.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
--
Rick Holland
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
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11/23/2006 3:22 PM
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