Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:28 AM - Re: Wood varnish or epoxy1200? (Vasek)
2. 03:21 AM - Re: rivets (Charles N. Campbell)
3. 04:30 AM - Re: rivets (Michael Perez)
4. 04:31 AM - Re: rivets (Jack Textor)
5. 04:42 AM - Re: rivets (Greg Cardinal)
6. 05:23 AM - Re: rivets (Jack Phillips)
7. 05:34 AM - Re: rivets (Jack Textor)
8. 05:49 AM - Re: rivets (Gary Boothe)
9. 07:32 AM - Re: rivets (JERRY)
10. 11:31 PM - New home (Clif Dawson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Wood varnish or epoxy1200? |
Thanks Jack!
Your aircraft looks perfect! :)
--------
My production of WW1 propellers, trophies and constructions:
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433960#433960
Message 2
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John, the entire Zenith series of aircraft, (601 650,700 series) use pop
rivets entirely. Don't see your reluctance to use them. C
On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 4:03 PM, John Greenlee <jmgreenlee@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
> Hello, Good People,
>
>
> I am in the midst of making new cowlings for my Ford powered Air Camper.
> The original motor cowl I had assembled with commercial pop rivets
=94easy to
> do, and the tools were at hand. I have started wondering whether it shou
ld
> be assembled with aircraft type rivets. This is a non structural part so
> probably no real advantage other than cosmetics.
>
>
> My questions for the assembled Pietenpol Brain Trust:
>
>
> 1. How much difference would this really make?
>
> 2. How difficult are the bucked rivets to install?
>
> 3. What is required tool wise? I have an appropriate compressor
> and air chisel. Are there appropriate rivet driving tools for the chisel
> or is a more specialized tool required? Cost of usable tools?
>
>
> Any advice on this topic is appreciated and some of it might even be
> followed.
>
>
> Ezra Styles
>
> (John Greenlee)
>
>
> *
>
===========
m>
ldersbooks.com>
.com>
com>
om/contribution>
===========
.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
===========
===========
>
> *
>
>
Message 3
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Hello John. I had not done any riveting prior to fabricating my air intakes and
engine cowling. By the time I was finished, I leaned how to calculate "shop"
rivet head diameter, rivet length, cutting rivets, squeezing rivets and setting
up/using the Cherry Max rivet puller. I've attached a few pictures of the tools
I used. I was fortunate enough to have access to these tools as they are
not cheap. The squeezer works for areas around the perimeter that it can reach.
The head can be replaced with various attachments to reach further into the
material. The Cherry Max puller was used for all other areas. This tool is my
favorite as it rivets without the need for a helper and it is almost impossible
to screw up the riveting process. These rivets are also good for structural
applications.
It may be worth your time/effort to find a club member, friend, A&P, shop, etc.
whom would allow you to borrow these tools.
If God is your co-pilot, switch seats
Mike Perez
Karetaker Aero
Construction complete! (8/2014)
Message 4
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John, I believe regular rivets look better. With practice they are pretty s
imple to drive. You will need a gun made for driving rivets ($150 +) and a c
ouple different bucking bars (($15+) and rivets (less than pop rivets). You
can choose between regular and flat head. This is a very basic description
. I believe Vans Aircraft has a practice kit available. Google it and you w
ill have tons of more accurate info than I have shared...
Jack
Sent from my iPad
> On Nov 17, 2014, at 3:03 PM, "John Greenlee" <jmgreenlee@sbcglobal.net> wr
ote:
>
> Hello, Good People,
>
> I am in the midst of making new cowlings for my Ford powered Air Camper. T
he original motor cowl I had assembled with commercial pop rivets=94ea
sy to do, and the tools were at hand. I have started wondering whether it s
hould be assembled with aircraft type rivets. This is a non structural part
so probably no real advantage other than cosmetics.
>
> My questions for the assembled Pietenpol Brain Trust:
>
> 1. How much difference would this really make?
> 2. How difficult are the bucked rivets to install?
> 3. What is required tool wise? I have an appropriate compressor and
air chisel. Are there appropriate rivet driving tools for the chisel or is
a more specialized tool required? Cost of usable tools?
>
> Any advice on this topic is appreciated and some of it might even be follo
wed.
>
> Ezra Styles
> (John Greenlee)
>
>
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 5
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John,
Are you talking about aircraft grade pop rivets, or hardware store pop rive
ts?
The nose bowl on NX18235 was assembled with hardware store pop rivets and t
hey didn't last very long.
They were replaced with bucked aircraft rivets which have held up much bett
er.
Bucking rivets is not difficult and tooling can be found here:
http://www.aircraft-tool.com/
You'll need a rivet gun, a couple of basic bucking bars, clecos and cleco p
liers. This is not a huge investment.
Do you have an air compressor?
Greg Cardinal
----- Original Message -----
From: John Greenlee
To: pietenpol-list-digest@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 3:03 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: rivets
Hello, Good People,
I am in the midst of making new cowlings for my Ford powered Air Camper.
The original motor cowl I had assembled with commercial pop rivets-easy to
do, and the tools were at hand. I have started wondering whether it shoul
d be assembled with aircraft type rivets. This is a non structural part so
probably no real advantage other than cosmetics.
My questions for the assembled Pietenpol Brain Trust:
1. How much difference would this really make?
2. How difficult are the bucked rivets to install?
3. What is required tool wise? I have an appropriate compressor an
d air chisel. Are there appropriate rivet driving tools for the chisel or
is a more specialized tool required? Cost of usable tools?
Any advice on this topic is appreciated and some of it might even be foll
owed.
Ezra Styles
(John Greenlee)
---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protec
tion is active.
http://www.avast.com
Message 6
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|
John,
You've already gotten some good advice. Hardware store pop rivets are very
soft and likely won't last long under the buffeting and vibration that a
cowling receives.
My first riveting experience was building the cowling for my Pietenpol, but
I was fortunate in that I learned a lot about the design of riveted joints
when working for General Dynamics on the F-16 program back in the 1970's.
Also, the fellow who was at the time the Technical Counselor of our EAA
Chapter was an experienced builder who had built an RV-4. He taught me a
LOT when I was riveting the cowling on my Pietenpol. Now I'm building an
RV-10 and have had the experience so far of shooting several thousand rivets
on it.
There are basically three ways of installing regualr solid rivets:
Squeezing them (always my first choice, if the rivet is close enough to an
edge to allow reaching it with a squeezer), shooting them with a C-Arm if
they are 22" or less from an edge, or bucking them (always the last choice
because it is the most difficult and often takes two people).
Using an air-chisel will not give you consistently good results and you are
likely to over drive many of the rivets. You need a good rivet gun,
preferably a 2X or 3X from a reputable manufacturer (NOT Harbor Freight),
either for bucking rivets or using a C-Arm. I recommend buying tools from
Avery Tools in Fort Worth, Texas. They are airplane builders themselves and
have everything you need. Check out http://www.averytools.com/ .
Are you a member of a local EAA Chapter? If so, chances are someone in the
chapter has all the tools you need. If this is the only rivet job you will
ever do, it is silly to spend several hundred dollars buying tools for just
this job.
Here are the tools you will need to either borrow or buy:
* Rivet Squeezer with dies for 3/32" rivets (most likley size) and/or
1/8" rivets
* Rivet gun, preferably a 2X or 3X
* Rivet sets for 3/32" and 1/8" rivets, pluse mushroom set if using
flush rivets
* A selection of bucking bars. If you have to buy just one, I'd buy
this one: http://www.averytools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=620 . If you can
afford it, a Tunsten bucking bar works much better than a steel one, but
they are pretty spendy
* A Cleco tool, and at least a dozen cleco's, 3/32" and 1/8"
* A C-Arm, such as:
http://www.averytools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1001
* Drill bits: #40 for 3/32" rivets, #30 for 1/8" rivets
* A DeBurring tool. The best I've found is:
http://www.averytools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1046
* A center punch to locate the holes before drilling
* A rivet gage to verify that the rivets are properly driven. Try:
http://www.averytools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1007
* AN470AD3 and AN470AD4 rivets if using protruding head rivets,
AN426AD3 and AN426AD4 rivets if using flush rivets. If using flush rivets
you will also need the prropriate sized dimpling dies to produce the
countersink (don't try to machine countersink thin aluminum sheet - it will
make too large a hole and the rivet will be loose). The dash numbers of the
rivets correspond to the length. If using .025" aluminum sheet, you will
want -4 length rivets or -4.5 if available. Be sure you use AD rivets, not
A. AD rivets are hardened and much stronger.
Once you have the tools, you need to practice. Use some scrap aluminum of
the same thickness as your cowling and practice driving rivets until you can
do every one perfectly. If you have any questions and don't have a Tech
Counselor who can help you, give me a call at (919) 427-4440. I can
probably walk you through it over the phone.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Greenlee
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 4:03 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: rivets
Hello, Good People,
I am in the midst of making new cowlings for my Ford powered Air Camper.
The original motor cowl I had assembled with commercial pop rivets-easy to
do, and the tools were at hand. I have started wondering whether it should
be assembled with aircraft type rivets. This is a non structural part so
probably no real advantage other than cosmetics.
My questions for the assembled Pietenpol Brain Trust:
1. How much difference would this really make?
2. How difficult are the bucked rivets to install?
3. What is required tool wise? I have an appropriate compressor and
air chisel. Are there appropriate rivet driving tools for the chisel or is
a more specialized tool required? Cost of usable tools?
Any advice on this topic is appreciated and some of it might even be
followed.
Ezra Styles
(John Greenlee)
Message 7
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|
What Jack P, Greg and Michael said...
Sent from my iPad
> On Nov 18, 2014, at 7:22 AM, "Jack Phillips" <jack@bedfordlandings.com> wr
ote:
>
> John,
>
> You=99ve already gotten some good advice. Hardware store pop rivets
are very soft and likely won=99t last long under the buffeting and vi
bration that a cowling receives.
>
> My first riveting experience was building the cowling for my Pietenpol, bu
t I was fortunate in that I learned a lot about the design of riveted joints
when working for General Dynamics on the F-16 program back in the 1970
=99s. Also, the fellow who was at the time the Technical Counselor of our E
AA Chapter was an experienced builder who had built an RV-4. He taught me a
LOT when I was riveting the cowling on my Pietenpol. Now I=99m build
ing an RV-10 and have had the experience so far of shooting several thousand
rivets on it.
>
> There are basically three ways of installing regualr solid rivets: Squeez
ing them (always my first choice, if the rivet is close enough to an edge to
allow reaching it with a squeezer), shooting them with a C-Arm if they are 2
2=9D or less from an edge, or bucking them (always the last choice bec
ause it is the most difficult and often takes two people).
>
> Using an air-chisel will not give you consistently good results and you ar
e likely to over drive many of the rivets. You need a good rivet gun, prefe
rably a 2X or 3X from a reputable manufacturer (NOT Harbor Freight), either f
or bucking rivets or using a C-Arm. I recommend buying tools from Avery Too
ls in Fort Worth, Texas. They are airplane builders themselves and have eve
rything you need. Check out http://www.averytools.com/ .
>
> Are you a member of a local EAA Chapter? If so, chances are someone in th
e chapter has all the tools you need. If this is the only rivet job you wil
l ever do, it is silly to spend several hundred dollars buying tools for jus
t this job.
>
> Here are the tools you will need to either borrow or buy:
>
> Rivet Squeezer with dies for 3/32=9D rivets (most likley size) and/o
r 1/8=9D rivets
> Rivet gun, preferably a 2X or 3X
> Rivet sets for 3/32=9D and 1/8=9D rivets, pluse mushroom set i
f using flush rivets
> A selection of bucking bars. If you have to buy just one, I=99d buy
this one: http://www.averytools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=620 . If you ca
n afford it, a Tunsten bucking bar works much better than a steel one, but t
hey are pretty spendy
> A Cleco tool, and at least a dozen cleco=99s, 3/32=9D and 1/8
=9D
> A C-Arm, such as: http://www.averytools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1001
> Drill bits: #40 for 3/32=9D rivets, #30 for 1/8=9D rivets
> A DeBurring tool. The best I=99ve found is: http://www.averytools.
com/prodinfo.asp?number=1046
> A center punch to locate the holes before drilling
> A rivet gage to verify that the rivets are properly driven. Try: http://
www.averytools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1007
> AN470AD3 and AN470AD4 rivets if using protruding head rivets, AN426AD3 and
AN426AD4 rivets if using flush rivets. If using flush rivets you will also
need the prropriate sized dimpling dies to produce the countersink (don
=99t try to machine countersink thin aluminum sheet =93 it will make t
oo large a hole and the rivet will be loose). The dash numbers of the rivet
s correspond to the length. If using .025=9D aluminum sheet, you will
want -4 length rivets or -4.5 if available. Be sure you use AD rivets, not
A. AD rivets are hardened and much stronger.
>
>
> Once you have the tools, you need to practice. Use some scrap aluminum of
the same thickness as your cowling and practice driving rivets until you ca
n do every one perfectly. If you have any questions and don=99t have a
Tech Counselor who can help you, give me a call at (919) 427-4440. I can p
robably walk you through it over the phone.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
> Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
>
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li
st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Greenlee
> Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 4:03 PM
> To: pietenpol-list-digest@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: rivets
>
> Hello, Good People,
>
> I am in the midst of making new cowlings for my Ford powered Air Camper. T
he original motor cowl I had assembled with commercial pop rivets=94ea
sy to do, and the tools were at hand. I have started wondering whether it s
hould be assembled with aircraft type rivets. This is a non structural part
so probably no real advantage other than cosmetics.
>
> My questions for the assembled Pietenpol Brain Trust:
>
> 1. How much difference would this really make?
> 2. How difficult are the bucked rivets to install?
> 3. What is required tool wise? I have an appropriate compressor and
air chisel. Are there appropriate rivet driving tools for the chisel or is
a more specialized tool required? Cost of usable tools?
>
> Any advice on this topic is appreciated and some of it might even be follo
wed.
>
> Ezra Styles
> (John Greenlee)
>
>
>
>
>
> www.buildersbooks.com
> www.mypilotstore.com
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 8
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|
John,
Just so you have a complete picture, as Charles said, Zenith aircraft
use Avex pop rivets, which is what I used. The rivets look like
countersunk rivets, but you modify the pulling head by grinding a hollow
in it. When the rivet is pulled, it forms a domed head. They are
designed so that the center piece does not fall out. Not only did I use
these on my cowling, but also on my fuel tank (along with Pro-seal).
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Textor
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 5:34 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rivets
What Jack P, Greg and Michael said...
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 18, 2014, at 7:22 AM, "Jack Phillips" <jack@bedfordlandings.com>
wrote:
John,
You=99ve already gotten some good advice. Hardware store pop
rivets are very soft and likely won=99t last long under the
buffeting and vibration that a cowling receives.
My first riveting experience was building the cowling for my Pietenpol,
but I was fortunate in that I learned a lot about the design of riveted
joints when working for General Dynamics on the F-16 program back in the
1970=99s. Also, the fellow who was at the time the Technical
Counselor of our EAA Chapter was an experienced builder who had built an
RV-4. He taught me a LOT when I was riveting the cowling on my
Pietenpol. Now I=99m building an RV-10 and have had the
experience so far of shooting several thousand rivets on it.
There are basically three ways of installing regualr solid rivets:
Squeezing them (always my first choice, if the rivet is close enough to
an edge to allow reaching it with a squeezer), shooting them with a
C-Arm if they are 22=9D or less from an edge, or bucking them
(always the last choice because it is the most difficult and often takes
two people).
Using an air-chisel will not give you consistently good results and you
are likely to over drive many of the rivets. You need a good rivet gun,
preferably a 2X or 3X from a reputable manufacturer (NOT Harbor
Freight), either for bucking rivets or using a C-Arm. I recommend
buying tools from Avery Tools in Fort Worth, Texas. They are airplane
builders themselves and have everything you need. Check out
http://www.averytools.com/ .
Are you a member of a local EAA Chapter? If so, chances are someone in
the chapter has all the tools you need. If this is the only rivet job
you will ever do, it is silly to spend several hundred dollars buying
tools for just this job.
Here are the tools you will need to either borrow or buy:
* Rivet Squeezer with dies for 3/32=9D rivets (most likley size)
and/or 1/8=9D rivets
* Rivet gun, preferably a 2X or 3X
* Rivet sets for 3/32=9D and 1/8=9D rivets, pluse mushroom
set if using flush rivets
* A selection of bucking bars. If you have to buy just one, I=99d
buy this one: http://www.averytools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=620 . If
you can afford it, a Tunsten bucking bar works much better than a steel
one, but they are pretty spendy
* A Cleco tool, and at least a dozen cleco=99s, 3/32=9D and
1/8=9D
* A C-Arm, such as:
http://www.averytools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1001
* Drill bits: #40 for 3/32=9D rivets, #30 for 1/8=9D rivets
* A DeBurring tool. The best I=99ve found is:
http://www.averytools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1046
* A center punch to locate the holes before drilling
* A rivet gage to verify that the rivets are properly driven. Try:
http://www.averytools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1007
* AN470AD3 and AN470AD4 rivets if using protruding head rivets, AN426AD3
and AN426AD4 rivets if using flush rivets. If using flush rivets you
will also need the prropriate sized dimpling dies to produce the
countersink (don=99t try to machine countersink thin aluminum
sheet =93 it will make too large a hole and the rivet will be
loose). The dash numbers of the rivets correspond to the length. If
using .025=9D aluminum sheet, you will want -4 length rivets or
-4.5 if available. Be sure you use AD rivets, not A. AD rivets are
hardened and much stronger.
Once you have the tools, you need to practice. Use some scrap aluminum
of the same thickness as your cowling and practice driving rivets until
you can do every one perfectly. If you have any questions and
don=99t have a Tech Counselor who can help you, give me a call at
(919) 427-4440. I can probably walk you through it over the phone.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Greenlee
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 4:03 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: rivets
Hello, Good People,
I am in the midst of making new cowlings for my Ford powered Air Camper.
The original motor cowl I had assembled with commercial pop
rivets=94easy to do, and the tools were at hand. I have started
wondering whether it should be assembled with aircraft type rivets.
This is a non structural part so probably no real advantage other than
cosmetics.
My questions for the assembled Pietenpol Brain Trust:
1. How much difference would this really make?
2. How difficult are the bucked rivets to install?
3. What is required tool wise? I have an appropriate compressor
and air chisel. Are there appropriate rivet driving tools for the
chisel or is a more specialized tool required? Cost of usable tools?
Any advice on this topic is appreciated and some of it might even be
followed.
Ezra Styles
(John Greenlee)
www.buildersbooks.com
www.mypilotstore.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
http://forums.matronics.com
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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ot;">www.aeroelectric.com
books.com"">www.buildersbooks.com
quot;">www.homebuilthelp.com
quot;">www.mypilotstore.com
">www.mrrace.com
ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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npol-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
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//forums.matronics.com
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Message 9
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I wouldn't change a thing
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Greenlee
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 3:03 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: rivets
Hello, Good People,
I am in the midst of making new cowlings for my Ford powered Air Camper.
The original motor cowl I had assembled with commercial pop rivets-easy to
do, and the tools were at hand. I have started wondering whether it should
be assembled with aircraft type rivets. This is a non structural part so
probably no real advantage other than cosmetics.
My questions for the assembled Pietenpol Brain Trust:
1. How much difference would this really make?
2. How difficult are the bucked rivets to install?
3. What is required tool wise? I have an appropriate compressor and
air chisel. Are there appropriate rivet driving tools for the chisel or is
a more specialized tool required? Cost of usable tools?
Any advice on this topic is appreciated and some of it might even be
followed.
Ezra Styles
(John Greenlee)
<http://www.buildersbooks.com>
Message 10
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Finally the beast has a new home. For a while
at least. This is the RAA hanger at Delta
Airpark. In the spring it'll move into the club's
shop at the East end of the hanger.
Now I've got room to put the wings on!!! :-)
http://www.deltaheritageairpark.org/
Clif
Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is
serious. -Brendan Gill
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