Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:46 AM - N912RV power failure on takeoff (Bob Heiser)
2. 06:47 AM - Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff (pilot623)
3. 08:25 AM - Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff (Ray Wilhelm)
4. 11:14 AM - Pulsars in SA (Ron Koval)
5. 11:42 AM - Re: Pulsars in SA (Keith Palmer)
6. 12:49 PM - Pulsars in SA (Keith Palmer)
7. 01:30 PM - Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff (Dennis Adams)
8. 01:43 PM - Pulsar Parts (Bob Heiser)
9. 02:00 PM - Re: Pulsar Parts (GREGSMI@aol.com)
10. 09:23 PM - Re: Pulsar Parts (Keith Palmer)
Message 1
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| Subject: | N912RV power failure on takeoff |
Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff.
==================================================================
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the
loss of power.
Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.
The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain.We removed the
quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris.We drained about and
ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the wing.No
water and just a few specks of dirt were found.
Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.
The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) was empty.
We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that connects to
the input of the mechanical pump.Unable to blow air into either tank.
The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is:Tank, fuel selector 12v
Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump.
We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel
pump.Still unable to blow through the electric pump.Note, all that is
left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump.All the fuel hoses were in good
condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.
We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the 12v
electric fuel pump.Access to the electric pump was still difficult thru
a hole in the seat bottom.After we removed the electric pump it was no
longer restricted.The removal process cleared the obstruction.We checked
the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for
debris, none found.
When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend
said he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a
SkyBolt he built years ago.
Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit.It is
turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start.There have been reports
of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb's. I
did see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the
electric pump on.
It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff.
About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the
oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the
carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the
carbs?
--
*God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT*
Message 2
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| Subject: | N912RV power failure on takeoff |
Hi Bob,
I was saddened to hear of the loss of your plane but very glad to hear that
you were not seriously injured. You didn't mention Carol so I assume she was
not on board. Your post today raised a few questions and thoughts.
Assume you were trying to feed from the right tank. You say it appeared
empty. Was there any crash damage to the tank that would have caused it to
lose its contents? If not, this sounds like a simple case of fuel starvation
due to an empty tank. I must be missing something here.
Regarding inability to blow air from the the mechanical pump's input hose
towards the tanks, I have never tried this experiment but I suspect the
Facet pump is designed to operate with flow in one direction only and by
design, it may have been stopping air flow in the reverse direction.
I don't have much experience running my engine at any speed with fuel valves
turned off but seem to remember at low idle, the carb supply of fuel is
exhausted in around 1 minute and at 4000-5000 rpm, 20-30 seconds.
I'm very interested in hearing how this all turns out.
Jim
Like saving money? Who doesn't! Go to http://www.ultimatesavingsonline.com
<http://www.ultimatesavingsonline.com/> and register to get some great
deals! It's free so you have nothing to lose.
_____
From: owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Heiser
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 7:44 AM
Subject: Pulsar-List: N912RV power failure on takeoff
Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff.
==================================================================
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the loss
of power.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->. <!--[endif]-->Checked inside the right
tank for debris none found.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->. <!--[endif]-->The tank appeared empty, no
gas came out of quick drain. We removed the quick drain with a pan to catch
any gas or debris. We drained about and ounce of gas trapped because the
quick drain extends into the wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt
were found.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->. <!--[endif]-->Removed mechanical fuel pump
and it worked properly.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->. <!--[endif]-->The clear fuel filter (in
fuel line going to mechanical pump) was empty.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->. <!--[endif]-->We tried blowing air into
the tank from the fuel hose that connects to the input of the mechanical
pump. Unable to blow air into either tank.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->. <!--[endif]-->The rout of fuel to the
mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear
glass fuel filter, mechanical pump.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->. <!--[endif]-->We removed the hose between
the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel pump. Still unable to blow through
the electric pump. Note, all that is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric
pump. All the fuel hoses were in good condition, no swelling, able to look
thru the short hoses.
<!--[if !supportLists]-->. <!--[endif]-->We removed the wings because
the spars prevented access to the 12v electric fuel pump. Access to the
electric pump was still difficult thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we
removed the electric pump it was no longer restricted. The removal process
cleared the obstruction. We checked the fuel line from the mechanical fuel
pump to the electric pump for debris, none found.
When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend said
he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBolt
he built years ago.
Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It is
turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been reports of
the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb's. I did
see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the
electric pump on.
It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff.
About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the oil
temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the carb's
hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the carbs?
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
Message 3
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| Subject: | N912RV power failure on takeoff |
Back in 1998 when I built my III, we were told ( don't remember by who) that
the facet fuel pumps could fail and block the flow of fuel. The pumps had
been changed to correct that failure mode, however there were many in the
field. Since it was possible that one of those could wind up in my plane we
were told to install a bypass check valve so the engine driven pump could
still pull the fuel around the failed electric pump. I did install the check
valve with a crack pressure of 2 inches of water pressure. Never worried
about it since. I do verify the check valve works every year at my
conditional inspection.
Ray Pulsar III/3300
From: owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Heiser
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 5:44 AM
Subject: Pulsar-List: N912RV power failure on takeoff
Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff.
==================================================================
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the loss
of power.
. Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.
. The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We
removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We drained
about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the
wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt were found.
. Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.
. The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) was
empty.
. We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that connects
to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into either tank.
. The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel
selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump.
. We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel
pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all that is
left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses were in good
condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.
. We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the 12v
electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult thru a
hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it was no
longer restricted. The removal process cleared the obstruction. We checked
the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for debris,
none found.
When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend said
he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBolt
he built years ago.
Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It is
turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been reports of
the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb's. I did
see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the
electric pump on.
It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff.
About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the oil
temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the carb's
hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the carbs?
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
Message 4
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Pulsar Friends,=0A=0AMy work has taken me to beautiful Dammam, Saudi Arabia
for 4 weeks.- Anybody =0Aknow any Pulsar owners-in the area?- Wow, w
ill I be surprised if I get a =0Apositive response.=0A=0AGas is about $0.45
/gallon here.=0A=0AOn lucky thing on the work trip, I will get to see the F
ormula 1 race live.=0A=0AHave a great day.=0A=0ARon
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Pulsars in SA |
There was only one in SA (Saudi Arabia) it is now in SA (South Africa) -
Can't be flown or sold because it was never registered and there is no
paper work.
Keith
South Africa
PS I can send you some photos
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Koval
To: Pulsar Builders
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 8:13 PM
Subject: Pulsar-List: Pulsars in SA
Pulsar Friends,
My work has taken me to beautiful Dammam, Saudi Arabia for 4 weeks.
Anybody know any Pulsar owners in the area? Wow, will I be surprised if
I get a positive response.
Gas is about $0.45/gallon here.
On lucky thing on the work trip, I will get to see the Formula 1 race
live.
Have a great day.
Ron
Message 6
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Sorry it was in UAE belonged to a Sheik who did 50hours in it then gave
it away and bought a..........................
See attachment top of page 2
Keith
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
All,
I did a little research on the Webb concerning Facet fuel pump failures.
There is a marine site claiming that this failure mode is/was fairly common
and that Facet knew about it but did not go through a recall. Instead
Facet came out with a new model, the E model that does not have this
failure mode and assumed the others would eventually be sold and replaced
with the new model. It seems that Spruce sells both, not sure if the
Spruce non- E model has the problem solved or not.
This failure mode was completely unknown to me.
Dennis Adams
N375CM
On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Ray Wilhelm <rwilhelm@dc.rr.com> wrote:
> Back in 1998 when I built my III, we were told ( don=92t remember by who)
> that the facet fuel pumps could fail and block the flow of fuel. The pump
s
> had been changed to correct that failure mode, however there were many in
> the field. Since it was possible that one of those could wind up in my
> plane we were told to install a bypass check valve so the engine driven
> pump could still pull the fuel around the failed electric pump. I did
> install the check valve with a crack pressure of 2 inches of water
> pressure. Never worried about it since. I do verify the check valve works
> every year at my conditional inspection.****
>
> Ray Pulsar III/3300****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Bob Heiser
> *Sent:* Saturday, April 21, 2012 5:44 AM
> *To:* pulsar-list@matronics.com; rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Pulsar-List: N912RV power failure on takeoff****
>
> ** **
>
> Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
> The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff
.
> ========================
=================
>
>
> ****
>
> With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the
> loss of power.****
>
> =B7 Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.****
>
> =B7 The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We
> removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We draine
d
> about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the
> wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt were found.****
>
> =B7 Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.****
>
> =B7 The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump)
> was empty.****
>
> =B7 We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that
> connects to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into
> either tank.****
>
> =B7 The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel
> selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump
.
> ****
>
> =B7 We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric
> fuel pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all th
at
> is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses were in
> good condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.****
>
> =B7 We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the
> 12v electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult
> thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it wa
s
> no longer restricted. The removal process cleared the obstruction. We
> checked the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump
> for debris, none found. ****
>
> When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend sai
d
> he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBo
lt
> he built years ago.****
>
> Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It i
s
> turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been reports
of
> the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb=92s. I d
id
> see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the
> electric pump on.****
>
> It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff.
> About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the
> oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the
> carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the
> carbs?
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> --
> *God Bless
> Bob Heiser W7IKT*****
>
> * *
>
> **
> http://www.matron==================
=******http://forums.matronics.com**
> - List Contribution Web generous nbsp; -->
> http://www.matronics.com/c=****
>
> * *
>
> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 8
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Has anyone gotten any repair parts for Pulsar XP's from Pulsar Aircraft
Corp.?
Do not plan to repair but need to understand what is available to talk
to insurance company.
Anyone know of a aircraft repair station that would be on rebuilding a
Pulsar XP?
--
*God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT*
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Pulsar Parts |
I heard that Pulsar Aircraft is out of business. I have sent them emails
but get no response.
Greg
In a message dated 4/21/2012 3:44:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
w7ikt@fly-web.us writes:
Has anyone gotten any repair parts for Pulsar XP's from Pulsar Aircraft
Corp.?
Do not plan to repair but need to understand what is available to talk to
insurance company.
Anyone know of a aircraft repair station that would be on rebuilding a
Pulsar XP?
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List)
/www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Pulsar Parts |
Bob,
Why don't you post some photos so we can assess the problem and
make some suggestions ?
Keith
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Heiser
To: pulsar-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 10:43 PM
Subject: Pulsar-List: Pulsar Parts
Has anyone gotten any repair parts for Pulsar XP's from Pulsar
Aircraft Corp.?
Do not plan to repair but need to understand what is available to talk
to insurance company.
Anyone know of a aircraft repair station that would be on rebuilding a
Pulsar XP?
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
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