Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:52 AM - Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff (Esa Lehto)
2. 05:52 AM - Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff (Barry J Edwards)
3. 06:40 AM - Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff (Bernard Wilder)
4. 07:05 AM - Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff (sonja.englert@juno.com)
5. 07:51 AM - Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff (Orv/Lorraine Krohn)
6. 08:04 AM - Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff (Orv/Lorraine Krohn)
7. 10:27 AM - Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff (Bob Heiser)
8. 11:07 AM - Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff (Casey King)
9. 12:17 PM - Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff (Bob Heiser)
10. 02:02 PM - Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff (HUGH COULTER)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
Hi Bernie,=0A=0AWhy you are asking that "was your electric fuel pump mounte
d at an angle ? ? " Are there instructions to do so or not?=0A=0ABR,=0AEsa
=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Bernard Wilder <berna
rd.wilder2@gmail.com>=0ATo: pulsar-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, Apri
l 22, 2012 3:09 PM=0ASubject: Re: Pulsar-List: N912RV power failure on take
off=0A =0A=0ABob,=0A=C2-=0ASorry about your loss.=0A=C2-=0AQuestion - -
- was your electric fuel pump mounted at an angle ? ? ? =0A=C2-=0ABernie
Wilder=0A=0A=0AOn Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Bob Heiser <w7ikt@fly-web.
us> wrote:=0A=0AHas anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electr
ic fuel pump?=0A>The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine
quit on takeoff.=0A>==================0A>
=0A>=0A>=0A>With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble
shot the loss of power.=0A>=C2=B7=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.=0A>=C2=B7=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of
quick drain.=C2- We removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas o
r debris.=C2- We drained about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick
drain extends into the wing.=C2- No water and just a few specks of dirt
were found.=0A>=C2=B7=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- Removed mec
hanical fuel pump and it worked properly.=0A>=C2=B7=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2- The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical
pump) was empty.=0A>=C2=B7=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- We tri
ed blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that connects to the input
of the mechanical pump.=C2- Unable to blow air into either tank.=0A>=C2
=B7=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- The rout of fuel to the mecha
nical fuel pump is:=C2- Tank, fuel selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear
glass fuel filter, mechanical pump.=0A>=C2=B7=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2- We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v elect
ric fuel pump.=C2- Still unable to blow through the electric pump.=C2-
Note, all that is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump.=C2- All the f
uel hoses were in good condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short
hoses.=0A>=C2=B7=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- We removed the w
ings because the spars prevented access to the 12v electric fuel pump.=C2
- Access to the electric pump was still difficult thru a hole in the seat
bottom.=C2- After we removed the electric pump it was no longer restrict
ed.=C2- The removal process cleared the obstruction.=C2- We checked the
fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for debris, n
one found.=C2- =0A>When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport
a pilot friend said he had a similar problem with an automotive electric f
uel pump in a SkyBolt he built years ago.=0A>Note the Facet 574A fuel pump
was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit.=C2- It is turned on for 15 seconds
prior to engine start.=C2- There have been reports of the electric pump a
nd mechanical pump both on flooding the carb=99s.=C2- I did see hig
her than recommended pressures during flight testing with the electric pump
on.=0A>=0A>It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting
takeoff.=C2- About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm wai
ting for the oil temperature to reach 120F.=C2- Do not know how many ounc
es of fuel the carb's hold.=C2- Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just runnin
g on fuel in the carbs?=0A>=0A>=0A>-- =0A>God Bless=0A>Bob Heiser W7IKT=0A>
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List=0Attp://for
==============
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
As I recall, the Facet pump should be mounted at 45 degrees for correct
operation. That is certainly how mine is mounted and I would have
followed the instructions with the kit.
Barry
G-XPXP 912 Taildragger, 1000hrs, UK
From: Esa Lehto
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: N912RV power failure on takeoff
Hi Bernie,
Why you are asking that "was your electric fuel pump mounted at an angle
? ? " Are there instructions to do so or not?
BR,
Esa
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
Bob,
I asked because my auto fuel pump has a check valve and the instructions
told me to mount it at a 45 degree angle.
Not sure (( After 15 years. )) whether it came with the kit or whether I
bought it. I do remember that it was the pump Ford put in its pickup
trucks to pump fuel from one tank to another.
Bernie Wilder
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Bob Heiser <w7ikt@fly-web.us> wrote:
> No, pump was horizontal. There is no check valve in the pump. I can
> blow thru from both directions after removing the pump.
> The pump and section of vent line are going to the NTSB tomorrow.
>
> I figure the fuel burn at about 1 oz per minute.
> Or 4 oz out of a 9.5 gallon tank.
> Or 4oz out of the empty space of 4 gallons.
> How much vacuum would removing 4 oz from 4 gallons cause?
>
> When I get done with NTSB, FAA, Insurance I will post pictures.
> Found extensive damage in the foot well today.
> *God Bless
> Bob Heiser W7IKT*
>
> On 4/22/2012 5:09 PM, Bernard Wilder wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> Sorry about your loss.
>
> Question - - - was your electric fuel pump mounted at an angle ? ? ?
>
> Bernie Wilder
>
> On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Bob Heiser <w7ikt@fly-web.us> wrote:
>
>> Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
>> The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeof
f.
>> ================
>>
>>
>> With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the
>> loss of power.
>>
>> =B7 Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.
>>
>> =B7 The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We
>> removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We
>> drained about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends i
nto
>> the wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt were found.
>>
>> =B7 Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.
>>
>> =B7 The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump)
>> was empty.
>>
>> =B7 We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that
>> connects to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into
>> either tank.
>>
>> =B7 The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel
>> selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pum
p.
>>
>> =B7 We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electri
c
>> fuel pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all
>> that is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses
>> were in good condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.
>>
>> =B7 We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to th
e
>> 12v electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult
>> thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it
>> was no longer restricted. The removal process cleared the obstruction.
We
>> checked the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump
>> for debris, none found.
>>
>> When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend
>> said he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a
>> SkyBolt he built years ago.
>>
>> Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It
>> is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been
>> reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the
>> carb=92s. I did see higher than recommended pressures during flight tes
ting
>> with the electric pump on.
>>
>> It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff.
>> About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the
>> oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the
>> carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the
>> carbs?
>>
>> --
>> *God Bless
>> Bob Heiser W7IKT*
>>
>> *
>>
>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
The engine driven pump can overcome quite a substantial amount of vacuum, as I
have found out by accident. When I bought my Pulsar, one of the vents was permanently
clogged by fuel tank sealant. I did not know that and flew it home like
that. Fortunately the fuel cap leaked a bit, but every time I opened it after
a flight, there was low pressure in the tank, the cap stuck to it and air was
audibly rushing into the tank. The engine operated normally in that condition,
even with the electric pump off.
Sonja
____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4f95610fba2f89c29f6st04duc
Message 5
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| Subject: | N912RV power failure on takeoff |
_____
From: owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Heiser
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: N912RV power failure on takeoff
No, pump was horizontal. There is no check valve in the pump. I can blow
thru from both directions after removing the pump.
The pump and section of vent line are going to the NTSB tomorrow.
I figure the fuel burn at about 1 oz per minute.
Or 4 oz out of a 9.5 gallon tank.
Or 4oz out of the empty space of 4 gallons.
How much vacuum would removing 4 oz from 4 gallons cause?
When I get done with NTSB, FAA, Insurance I will post pictures.
Found extensive damage in the foot well today.
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
On 4/22/2012 5:09 PM, Bernard Wilder wrote:
Bob,
Sorry about your loss.
Question - - - was your electric fuel pump mounted at an angle ? ? ?
Bernie Wilder
On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Bob Heiser <w7ikt@fly-web.us> wrote:
Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff.
================
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the loss
of power.
* Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.
* The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We
removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We drained
about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the
wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt were found.
* Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.
* The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) was
empty.
* We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that connects
to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into either tank.
* The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel
selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump.
* We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel
pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all that is
left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses were in good
condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.
* We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the 12v
electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult thru a
hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it was no
longer restricted. The removal process cleared the obstruction. We checked
the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for debris,
none found.
When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend said
he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBolt
he built years ago.
Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It is
turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been reports of
the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb's. I did
see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the
electric pump on.
It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff.
About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the oil
temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the carb's
hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the carbs?
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 6
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| Subject: | N912RV power failure on takeoff |
Bob - Thank God for your guardian angel [Ps. 91:11-12]! Now the question:
rebuild, repair, or replace???
- If the latter, give me a call [575/622-1055]. After 50 years of
flying, I'm putting my "Wings on the Wind" [Ps 18: 10] up for sale [N753ST].
- - Let me know if you're interested! [Rev.] Orv Krohn
From: owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Heiser
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: N912RV power failure on takeoff
No, pump was horizontal. There is no check valve in the pump. I can blow
thru from both directions after removing the pump.
The pump and section of vent line are going to the NTSB tomorrow.
I figure the fuel burn at about 1 oz per minute.
Or 4 oz out of a 9.5 gallon tank.
Or 4oz out of the empty space of 4 gallons.
How much vacuum would removing 4 oz from 4 gallons cause?
When I get done with NTSB, FAA, Insurance I will post pictures.
Found extensive damage in the foot well today.
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
On 4/22/2012 5:09 PM, Bernard Wilder wrote:
Bob,
Sorry about your loss.
Question - - - was your electric fuel pump mounted at an angle ? ? ?
Bernie Wilder
On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Bob Heiser <w7ikt@fly-web.us> wrote:
Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff.
================
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the loss
of power.
* Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.
* The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We
removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We drained
about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the
wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt were found.
* Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.
* The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) was
empty.
* We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that connects
to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into either tank.
* The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel
selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump.
* We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel
pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all that is
left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses were in good
condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.
* We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the 12v
electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult thru a
hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it was no
longer restricted. The removal process cleared the obstruction. We checked
the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for debris,
none found.
When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend said
he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBolt
he built years ago.
Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It is
turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been reports of
the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb's. I did
see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the
electric pump on.
It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff.
About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the oil
temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the carb's
hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the carbs?
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
Waiting on the insurance before making decisions.
Other than I feel there is too much damage to N912RV to rebuild and Bob
H. has warned of hidden damage to the composite structure.
*God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT*
On 4/23/2012 10:02 AM, Orv/Lorraine Krohn wrote:
>
> Bob -- Thank God for your guardian angel [Ps. 91:11-12]! Now the
> question: rebuild, repair, or replace???
>
> -If the latter, give me a call [575/622-1055]. After 50 years of
> flying, I'm putting my "Wings on the Wind" [Ps 18: 10] up for sale
> [N753ST].
>
> -- Let me know if you're interested![Rev.] Orv Krohn
>
> *From:*owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Bob Heiser
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 22, 2012 5:44 PM
> *To:* pulsar-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Pulsar-List: N912RV power failure on takeoff
>
> No, pump was horizontal. There is no check valve in the pump. I can
> blow thru from both directions after removing the pump.
> The pump and section of vent line are going to the NTSB tomorrow.
>
> I figure the fuel burn at about 1 oz per minute.
> Or 4 oz out of a 9.5 gallon tank.
> Or 4oz out of the empty space of 4 gallons.
> How much vacuum would removing 4 oz from 4 gallons cause?
>
> When I get done with NTSB, FAA, Insurance I will post pictures.
> Found extensive damage in the foot well today.
>
> *God Bless
> Bob Heiser W7IKT*
>
>
> On 4/22/2012 5:09 PM, Bernard Wilder wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> Sorry about your loss.
>
> Question - - - was your electric fuel pump mounted at an angle ? ? ?
>
> Bernie Wilder
>
> On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Bob Heiser <w7ikt@fly-web.us
> <mailto:w7ikt@fly-web.us>> wrote:
>
> Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
> The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff.
> ================
>
> With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot
> the loss of power.
>
> Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.
>
> The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We removed
> the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We drained
> about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into
> the wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt were found.
>
> Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.
>
> The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) was empty.
>
> We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that connects
> to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into either tank.
>
> The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel selector
> 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump.
>
> We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel
> pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all that
> is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses were
> in good condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.
>
> We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the 12v
> electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult
> thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it
> was no longer restricted. The removal process cleared the
> obstruction. We checked the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump
> to the electric pump for debris, none found.
>
> When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend
> said he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in
> a SkyBolt he built years ago.
>
> Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit.
> It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been
> reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the
> carb's. I did see higher than recommended pressures during flight
> testing with the electric pump on.
>
> It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting
> takeoff. About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm
> waiting for the oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many
> ounces of fuel the carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just
> running on fuel in the carbs?
>
> --
> *God Bless
> Bob Heiser W7IKT*
>
> * *
> * *
> *arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List*
> *ttp://forums.matronics.com*
> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
> * *
>
> * *
> * *
> * *
> * *
> * *
> * - The Pulsar-List Email Forum -*
> **
> **
> * --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List*
> * - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -*
> * --> http://forums.matronics.com*
> * - List Contribution Web Site -*
> * -Matt Dralle, List Admin.*
> **
> * *
> *
>
>
> *
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
Bob-
You may have answered this already, but in an earlier post you were concent
rating on the right fuel tank so assuming selector was to the right side. O
n inspection you said tank appeared empty. How did it get empty? Was the fu
el tank compromised?
Casey
On Apr 21, 2012, at 3:29 PM, Dennis Adams wrote:
All,
I did a little research on the Webb concerning Facet fuel pump failures. T
here is a marine site claiming that this failure mode is/was fairly common
and that Facet knew about it but did not go through a recall. Instead Face
t came out with a new model, the E model that does not have this failure mo
de and assumed the others would eventually be sold and replaced with the ne
w model. It seems that Spruce sells both, not sure if the Spruce non- E mo
del has the problem solved or not.
This failure mode was completely unknown to me.
Dennis Adams
N375CM
On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Ray Wilhelm <rwilhelm@dc.rr.com<mailto:rwi
lhelm@dc.rr.com>> wrote:
Back in 1998 when I built my III, we were told ( don=92t remember by who) t
hat the facet fuel pumps could fail and block the flow of fuel. The pumps h
ad been changed to correct that failure mode, however there were many in th
e field. Since it was possible that one of those could wind up in my plane
we were told to install a bypass check valve so the engine driven pump coul
d still pull the fuel around the failed electric pump. I did install the ch
eck valve with a crack pressure of 2 inches of water pressure. Never worrie
d about it since. I do verify the check valve works every year at my condit
ional inspection.
Ray Pulsar III/3300
From: owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-pulsar-list-serve
r@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owne
r-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of Bob Heiser
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 5:44 AM
es-list@matronics.com<mailto:rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Pulsar-List: N912RV power failure on takeoff
Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff.
================
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the los
s of power.
- Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.
- The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We rem
oved the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We drained abo
ut and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the wing.
No water and just a few specks of dirt were found.
- Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.
- The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) wa
s empty.
- We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that conne
cts to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into either ta
nk.
- The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel sel
ector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump.
- We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric f
uel pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all that
is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses were in go
od condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.
- We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the 1
2v electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult thr
u a hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it was no
longer restricted. The removal process cleared the obstruction. We checke
d the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for debr
is, none found.
When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend said
he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBolt
he built years ago.
Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It is
turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been reports of
the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb=92s. I di
d see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the elec
tric pump on.
It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff. Ab
out half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the oil
temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the carb's
hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the carbs?
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
http://www.matron<http://www.matron/>============
=======http://forums.matronics.com<http://forums.matronics.co
m/> - List Contribution Web generous nbsp; -
-> http://www.matronics.com/c=<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
The fuel selector was on the right tank.
I filled it to 6 gallons before the flight.
It was empty the next day when the plane had been delivered there.
Crash damage emptied the both tanks. The cockpit floor rug has gas stains.
*God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT*
On 4/23/2012 1:04 PM, Casey King wrote:
> Bob-
>
> You may have answered this already, but in an earlier post you were
> concentrating on the right fuel tank so assuming selector was to the
> right side. On inspection you said tank appeared empty. How did it get
> empty? Was the fuel tank compromised?
>
> Casey
>
> On Apr 21, 2012, at 3:29 PM, Dennis Adams wrote:
>
>> All,
>>
>> I did a little research on the Webb concerning Facet fuel pump
>> failures. There is a marine site claiming that this failure mode
>> is/was fairly common and that Facet knew about it but did not go
>> through a recall. Instead Facet came out with a new model, the E
>> model that does not have this failure mode and assumed the others
>> would eventually be sold and replaced with the new model. It seems
>> that Spruce sells both, not sure if the Spruce non- E model has the
>> problem solved or not.
>>
>> This failure mode was completely unknown to me.
>>
>> Dennis Adams
>> N375CM
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Ray Wilhelm <rwilhelm@dc.rr.com
>> <mailto:rwilhelm@dc.rr.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Back in 1998 when I built my III, we were told ( dont remember
>> by who) that the facet fuel pumps could fail and block the flow
>> of fuel. The pumps had been changed to correct that failure mode,
>> however there were many in the field. Since it was possible that
>> one of those could wind up in my plane we were told to install a
>> bypass check valve so the engine driven pump could still pull the
>> fuel around the failed electric pump. I did install the check
>> valve with a crack pressure of 2 inches of water pressure. Never
>> worried about it since. I do verify the check valve works every
>> year at my conditional inspection.
>>
>> Ray Pulsar III/3300
>>
>> *From:*owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com
>> <mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com>
>> [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com
>> <mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com>] *On Behalf Of
>> *Bob Heiser
>> *Sent:* Saturday, April 21, 2012 5:44 AM
>> *To:* pulsar-list@matronics.com
>> <mailto:pulsar-list@matronics.com>;
>> rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
>> <mailto:rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>
>> *Subject:* Pulsar-List: N912RV power failure on takeoff
>>
>> Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric
>> fuel pump?
>> The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on
>> takeoff.
>> =========================================
>>
>>
>>
>> With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble
>> shot the loss of power.
>>
>> Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.
>>
>> The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We
>> removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris.
>> We drained about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain
>> extends into the wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt
>> were found.
>>
>> Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.
>>
>> The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump)
>> was empty.
>>
>> We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that
>> connects to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air
>> into either tank.
>>
>> The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel
>> selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter,
>> mechanical pump.
>>
>> We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric
>> fuel pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump.
>> Note, all that is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All
>> the fuel hoses were in good condition, no swelling, able to look
>> thru the short hoses.
>>
>> We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the
>> 12v electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still
>> difficult thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the
>> electric pump it was no longer restricted. The removal process
>> cleared the obstruction. We checked the fuel line from the
>> mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for debris, none found.
>>
>> When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot
>> friend said he had a similar problem with an automotive electric
>> fuel pump in a SkyBolt he built years ago.
>>
>> Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs
>> Kit. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start.
>> There have been reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump
>> both on flooding the carbs. I did see higher than recommended
>> pressures during flight testing with the electric pump on.
>>
>> It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting
>> takeoff. About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000
>> rpm waiting for the oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know
>> how many ounces of fuel the carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes
>> + was just running on fuel in the carbs?
>>
>> --
>> *God Bless
>> Bob Heiser W7IKT*
>>
>> * *
>>
>> http://www.matron
>> <http://www.matron/>===================http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
>> - List Contribution Web generous nbsp; -->
>> http://www.matronics.com/c
>>
>> * *
>>
>> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>>
>> *
>>
>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
>> nics.com
>> .matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 14:16:40 -0500
Bob Heiser <w7ikt@fly-web.us> wrote:
> The fuel selector was on the right tank.
> I filled it to 6 gallons before the flight.
> It was empty the next day when the plane had been
>delivered there.
> Crash damage emptied the both tanks. The cockpit floor
>rug has gas stains.
> *God Bless
> Bob Heiser W7IKT*
>
> On 4/23/2012 1:04 PM, Casey King wrote:
>> Bob-
>>
>> You may have answered this already, but in an earlier
>>post you were
>> concentrating on the right fuel tank so assuming
>>selector was to the
>> right side. On inspection you said tank appeared empty.
>>How did it get
>> empty? Was the fuel tank compromised?
>>
>> Casey
>>
>> On Apr 21, 2012, at 3:29 PM, Dennis Adams wrote:
>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> I did a little research on the Webb concerning Facet
>>>fuel pump
>>> failures. There is a marine site claiming that this
>>>failure mode
>>> is/was fairly common and that Facet knew about it but
>>>did not go
>>> through a recall. Instead Facet came out with a new
>>>model, the E
>>> model that does not have this failure mode and assumed
>>>the others
>>> would eventually be sold and replaced with the new
>>>model. It seems
>>> that Spruce sells both, not sure if the Spruce non- E
>>>model has the
>>> problem solved or not.
>>>
>>> This failure mode was completely unknown to me.
>>>
>>> Dennis Adams
>>> N375CM
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Ray Wilhelm
>>><rwilhelm@dc.rr.com
>>> <mailto:rwilhelm@dc.rr.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Back in 1998 when I built my III, we were told (
>>>dont remember
>>> by who) that the facet fuel pumps could fail and
>>>block the flow
>>> of fuel. The pumps had been changed to correct that
>>>failure mode,
>>> however there were many in the field. Since it was
>>>possible that
>>> one of those could wind up in my plane we were told
>>>to install a
>>> bypass check valve so the engine driven pump could
>>>still pull the
>>> fuel around the failed electric pump. I did install
>>>the check
>>> valve with a crack pressure of 2 inches of water
>>>pressure. Never
>>> worried about it since. I do verify the check valve
>>>works every
>>> year at my conditional inspection.
>>>
>>> Ray Pulsar III/3300
>>>
>>> *From:*owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com
>>> <mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com>
>>> [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com
>>> <mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com>] *On
>>>Behalf Of
>>> *Bob Heiser
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, April 21, 2012 5:44 AM
>>> *To:* pulsar-list@matronics.com
>>> <mailto:pulsar-list@matronics.com>;
>>> rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
>>> <mailto:rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>
>>> *Subject:* Pulsar-List: N912RV power failure on
>>>takeoff
>>>
>>> Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v
>>>electric
>>> fuel pump?
>>> The following is the story of trouble shooting the
>>>engine quit on
>>> takeoff.
>>> =========================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son
>>>I trouble
>>> shot the loss of power.
>>>
>>> Checked inside the right tank for debris none
>>>found.
>>>
>>> The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick
>>>drain. We
>>> removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas
>>>or debris.
>>> We drained about and ounce of gas trapped because
>>>the quick drain
>>> extends into the wing. No water and just a few
>>>specks of dirt
>>> were found.
>>>
>>> Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked
>>>properly.
>>>
>>> The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to
>>>mechanical pump)
>>> was empty.
>>>
>>> We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel
>>>hose that
>>> connects to the input of the mechanical pump.
>>> Unable to blow air
>>> into either tank.
>>>
>>> The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is:
>>> Tank, fuel
>>> selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel
>>>filter,
>>> mechanical pump.
>>>
>>> We removed the hose between the fuel selector and
>>>12v electric
>>> fuel pump. Still unable to blow through the
>>>electric pump.
>>> Note, all that is left is 1 hose and the 12v
>>>electric pump. All
>>> the fuel hoses were in good condition, no swelling,
>>>able to look
>>> thru the short hoses.
>>>
>>> We removed the wings because the spars prevented
>>>access to the
>>> 12v electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump
>>>was still
>>> difficult thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we
>>>removed the
>>> electric pump it was no longer restricted. The
>>>removal process
>>> cleared the obstruction. We checked the fuel line
>>>from the
>>> mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for
>>>debris, none found.
>>>
>>> When telling the trouble shooting story on the
>>>airport a pilot
>>> friend said he had a similar problem with an
>>>automotive electric
>>> fuel pump in a SkyBolt he built years ago.
>>>
>>> Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the
>>>Aero Designs
>>> Kit. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine
>>>start.
>>> There have been reports of the electric pump and
>>>mechanical pump
>>> both on flooding the carbs. I did see higher than
>>>recommended
>>> pressures during flight testing with the electric
>>>pump on.
>>>
>>> It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F
>>>before starting
>>> takeoff. About half the time was taxi, the other
>>>half at 4000
>>> rpm waiting for the oil temperature to reach 120F.
>>> Do not know
>>> how many ounces of fuel the carb's hold. Wonder if
>>>the 4 minutes
>>> + was just running on fuel in the carbs?
>>>
>>> --
>>> *God Bless
>>> Bob Heiser W7IKT*
>>>
>>> * *
>>>
>>> http://www.matron
>>> <http://www.matron/>===================http://forums.matronics.com
>>><http://forums.matronics.com/>
>>> - List Contribution Web generous nbsp;
>>> -->
>>> http://www.matronics.com/c
>>>
>>> * *
>>>
>>> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
>>> nics.com
>>> .matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>> *
>>
>> *
>>B0b
Someone may have already answered but the elec pump was to
be mounted on a 45 degerr angle.l This was and is in the
construction manuel.
Clarke
>>
>> *
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