Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:27 AM - Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup (Bob Heiser)
2. 07:18 AM - Re: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup (barrynorman@comcast.net)
3. 08:04 AM - Re: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup (Bernard Wilder)
4. 09:00 AM - Re: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup (barrynorman@comcast.net)
5. 09:19 AM - Nose gear needed (Bigfootf2013)
6. 09:36 AM - Re: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup (barrynorman@comcast.net)
7. 09:36 AM - Re: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup (Barry J Edwards)
8. 10:02 AM - Re: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup (barrynorman@comcast.net)
9. 10:18 AM - Re: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup (Barry J Edwards)
10. 10:34 AM - Re: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup (barrynorman@comcast.net)
11. 10:46 AM - Re: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup (Dennis Adams)
12. 10:52 AM - Re: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup (Cd)
13. 11:29 AM - Re: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup (Bernard Wilder)
14. 12:14 PM - Re: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup (Ron Koval)
15. 12:49 PM - Re: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup (barrynorman@comcast.net)
16. 01:16 PM - Re: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup (HUGH COULTER)
17. 07:13 PM - Re: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup (Keith Palmer)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup |
Bob,
This has some similarities to my accident. I believe the electric fuel
pump blocked fuel flow in my plane. When the fuel pump was removed I
could not blow thru it in either direction, should have been able to in
the direction of flow. After shipping the fuel pump to the NTSB it
operated normally. Do you have a bypass and check valve around the
electric fuel pump?
*God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT*
On 9/10/2012 6:23 PM, Bob Hartunian wrote:
>
> Flew out locally for bkfst on Sunday, past mountains to flatlands and
> landed and all was fine. Got back into plane 45 min later and started
> up fine. Did normal runup and had 5 gal in left tank, full right tank,
> running off left, all was fine.
> Took off normally and did another normal left crosswind turn toward
> home and mountains. All indications normal including fuel pressure.
> Climbing at 500 fpm, 100 mph, engine around 5100 rpm, when suddenly
> engine rpm drops to almost idle. No shaking or vibes. Immediately
> kicked on electric fuel pump but saw no indications for low fuel
> pressure, and engine came back normally. I don't think the fuel pump
> really did anything as engine just regained rpm and flew perfectly all
> the way home for another 20 min. out over desert just in case.
> I pulled cowl and checked things visually but no obvious problems.
> Don't have a good explanation for why rpm dropped.
> Bob H
>
>
> __,_._,___
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup |
I had an event this summer that was similiar but I don't think it had anyth
ing to do with the fuel pump. It was a fairly warm day and I had taken my s
on up for a ride in the Pulsar III and returned after a 30 minute flight wh
ere everything was perfectly normal. I shut the plane down for a few minute
s while we loaded another passenger and had a very difficult time restartin
g the plane. This was not anything new in this situation as I think the fue
l starts to boil in the bowls making it difficult to start and get fresh fu
el in due to the pressure in the bowls. I finally got it started and it ran
rough for a few minutes but cleared up. I taxied to the runway and as I fe
d in power for takeoff, the RPM dropped and the engine quit. The plane ref
used to restart so I brought it back to the hanger. I came back the next da
y and the plane started right up and ran fine. This is a pattern I've notic
ed=C2-on my plane that appears to be vapor lock on warm days. Once those
carb bowls get heat soaked from sitting, the problem shows up.
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Heiser" <w7ikt@fly-web.us>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 9:27:00 AM
Subject: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
Bob,
This has some similarities to my accident.=C2- I believe the electric fue
l pump blocked fuel flow in my plane.=C2- When the fuel pump was removed
I could not blow thru it in either direction, should have been able to in t
he direction of flow.=C2- After shipping the fuel pump to the NTSB it ope
rated normally.=C2- Do you have a bypass and check valve around the elect
ric fuel pump?
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT On 9/10/2012 6:23 PM, Bob Hartunian wrote:
=C2-
Flew out locally for bkfst on Sunday, past mountains to flatlands and lande
d and all was fine. Got back into plane 45 min later and started up fine. D
id normal runup and had 5 gal in left tank, full right tank, running off le
ft, all was fine.
Took off normally and did another normal left crosswind turn toward home an
d mountains. All indications normal including fuel pressure. Climbing at 50
0 fpm, 100 mph, engine around 5100 rpm, when suddenly engine rpm drops to a
lmost idle. No shaking or vibes. Immediately kicked on electric fuel pump b
ut saw no indications for low fuel pressure, and engine came back normally.
I don=99t think the fuel pump really did anything as engine just reg
ained rpm and flew perfectly all the way home for another 20 min. out over
desert just in case.
I pulled cowl and checked things visually but no obvious problems. Don
=99t have a good explanation for why rpm dropped.
Bob H
__,_._,___
==
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup |
Bob,
You may remember that my initial theory was that the problem was with the
electric fuel pump.
Barry,
Is your electric fuel pump mounted on a 45 degree angle ? ? ? Mine
specified that it should be,
Do you have a jetted fuel line going from the fuel line between the engine
fuel pump and the carbs back to your fuel cells ? ? ? Rotax standard
instalation instructions specify that there be one.
Even with this bleed back path for hot fuel, and vapor formed in the fuel
line when the fuel cooks off and turning on the electric fuel pump,, on a
hot day when I forget to open the hatch on the top of my cowl it is common
for the engine to falter four to five minutes after re-start. On such days
I turn on my electric fuel pump run my engine long enough to be past the
time that the engine will run on the fuel left over in the carb bowls.
Bernie Wilder
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Bob Heiser <w7ikt@fly-web.us> wrote:
> Bob,
> This has some similarities to my accident. I believe the electric fuel
> pump blocked fuel flow in my plane. When the fuel pump was removed I cou
ld
> not blow thru it in either direction, should have been able to in the
> direction of flow. After shipping the fuel pump to the NTSB it operated
> normally. Do you have a bypass and check valve around the electric fuel
> pump?
> *God Bless
> Bob Heiser W7IKT*
> On 9/10/2012 6:23 PM, Bob Hartunian wrote:
>
>
> Flew out locally for bkfst on Sunday, past mountains to flatlands and
> landed and all was fine. Got back into plane 45 min later and started up
> fine. Did normal runup and had 5 gal in left tank, full right tank, runni
ng
> off left, all was fine.
> Took off normally and did another normal left crosswind turn toward home
> and mountains. All indications normal including fuel pressure. Climbing a
t
> 500 fpm, 100 mph, engine around 5100 rpm, when suddenly engine rpm drops
to
> almost idle. No shaking or vibes. Immediately kicked on electric fuel pum
p
> but saw no indications for low fuel pressure, and engine came back
> normally. I don=92t think the fuel pump really did anything as engine jus
t
> regained rpm and flew perfectly all the way home for another 20 min. out
> over desert just in case.
> I pulled cowl and checked things visually but no obvious problems. Don=92
t
> have a good explanation for why rpm dropped.
> Bob H
>
> __,_._,___
>
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup |
My manuals never mentioned mounting the fuel pump at 45 degrees or routing
fuel back to the tank via a return line. As a matter of fact, there were no
provisions in the end plates for a fuel return or a selector switch for fe
eding=C2-back to the appropriate tank. There wasn't any information on a
bypass for the electric pump either. =C2-
Barry.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bernard Wilder" <bernard.wilder2@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 11:02:26 AM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
Bob,
=C2-
You may remember that my initial theory was that the problem was with the e
lectric fuel pump.
=C2-
Barry,
=C2-
Is your electric fuel pump mounted on a 45 degree angle ? ? ?=C2- Mine sp
ecified that it should be,
=C2-
Do you have a jetted fuel line going from the fuel line between the engine
fuel pump and the carbs back to your fuel cells ? ? ? Rotax standard instal
ation instructions specify that there be one.
=C2-
=C2-Even with this bleed back path for hot fuel, and vapor formed in the
fuel line when the fuel cooks off and turning on the electric fuel pump,,
=C2-on a hot day when I forget to open the hatch on the top of my cowl it
is common for the engine to falter four to five minutes after re-start. On
such days I turn on my electric fuel pump run my engine long enough to be
past the time that the engine will run on the fuel left over in the carb bo
wls.
=C2-
Bernie Wilder
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Bob Heiser < w7ikt@fly-web.us > wrote:
Bob,
This has some similarities to my accident.=C2- I believe the electric fue
l pump blocked fuel flow in my plane.=C2- When the fuel pump was removed
I could not blow thru it in either direction, should have been able to in t
he direction of flow.=C2- After shipping the fuel pump to the NTSB it ope
rated normally.=C2- Do you have a bypass and check valve around the elect
ric fuel pump?
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT On 9/10/2012 6:23 PM, Bob Hartunian wrote:
<blockquote>
=C2-
Flew out locally for bkfst on Sunday, past mountains to flatlands and lande
d and all was fine. Got back into plane 45 min later and started up fine. D
id normal runup and had 5 gal in left tank, full right tank, running off le
ft, all was fine.
Took off normally and did another normal left crosswind turn toward home an
d mountains. All indications normal including fuel pressure. Climbing at 50
0 fpm, 100 mph, engine around 5100 rpm, when suddenly engine rpm drops to a
lmost idle. No shaking or vibes. Immediately kicked on electric fuel pump b
ut saw no indications for low fuel pressure, and engine came back normally.
I don=99t think the fuel pump really did anything as engine just reg
ained rpm and flew perfectly all the way home for another 20 min. out over
desert just in case.
I pulled cowl and checked things visually but no obvious problems. Don
=99t have a good explanation for why rpm dropped.
Bob H
__,_._,___
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List ttp://forum
s.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
</blockquote>
==
Message 5
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| Subject: | Nose gear needed |
Hi Everyone I'm glad I found the group. I am in need of a nose wheel assembly.
The nose leg and castoring fork.
Thanks!
--------
BFlowers
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382935#382935
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup |
I found a detailed installation guide on the Internet on the facet pump and
they do recommend mounting the pump at a 45 degree angle to allow buildup
of vapors to pass through the pump easily. Unfortunately the location of th
e pump doesn't allow for it and I don't think=C2-a buildup of vapors exis
ts near the pump because it doesn't get hot there inside the cabin. In fact
, when I'm having a hard start problem after it's heat soaked,=C2-the onl
y way I can get=C2-it started is when=C2-I turn on the electric pump, s
o I know it's functioning properly.=C2-What works for me is to take the u
pper engine cowl off during short stops for refueling or whatever and that
stops the heat soaking and vapor lock problems.=C2-=C2-
----- Original Message -----
From: barrynorman@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 12:00:27 PM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
My manuals never mentioned mounting the fuel pump at 45 degrees or routing
fuel back to the tank via a return line. As a matter of fact, there were no
provisions in the end plates for a fuel return or a selector switch for fe
eding=C2-back to the appropriate tank. There wasn't any information on a
bypass for the electric pump either.=C2-
=C2-
Barry.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bernard Wilder" <bernard.wilder2@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 11:02:26 AM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
Bob,
=C2-
You may remember that my initial theory was that the problem was with the e
lectric fuel pump.
=C2-
Barry,
=C2-
Is your electric fuel pump mounted on a 45 degree angle ? ? ?=C2- Mine sp
ecified that it should be,
=C2-
Do you have a jetted fuel line going from the fuel line between the engine
fuel pump and the carbs back to your fuel cells ? ? ? Rotax standard instal
ation instructions specify that there be one.
=C2-
=C2-Even with this bleed back path for hot fuel, and vapor formed in the
fuel line when the fuel cooks off and turning on the electric fuel pump,,
=C2-on a hot day when I forget to open the hatch on the top of my cowl it
is common for the engine to falter four to five minutes after re-start. On
such days I turn on my electric fuel pump run my engine long enough to be
past the time that the engine will run on the fuel left over in the carb bo
wls.
=C2-
Bernie Wilder
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Bob Heiser < w7ikt@fly-web.us > wrote:
Bob,
This has some similarities to my accident.=C2- I believe the electric fue
l pump blocked fuel flow in my plane.=C2- When the fuel pump was removed
I could not blow thru it in either direction, should have been able to in t
he direction of flow.=C2- After shipping the fuel pump to the NTSB it ope
rated normally.=C2- Do you have a bypass and check valve around the elect
ric fuel pump?
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT On 9/10/2012 6:23 PM, Bob Hartunian wrote:
<blockquote>
=C2-
Flew out locally for bkfst on Sunday, past mountains to flatlands and lande
d and all was fine. Got back into plane 45 min later and started up fine. D
id normal runup and had 5 gal in left tank, full right tank, running off le
ft, all was fine.
Took off normally and did another normal left crosswind turn toward home an
d mountains. All indications normal including fuel pressure. Climbing at 50
0 fpm, 100 mph, engine around 5100 rpm, when suddenly engine rpm drops to a
lmost idle. No shaking or vibes. Immediately kicked on electric fuel pump b
ut saw no indications for low fuel pressure, and engine came back normally.
I don=99t think the fuel pump really did anything as engine just reg
ained rpm and flew perfectly all the way home for another 20 min. out over
desert just in case.
I pulled cowl and checked things visually but no obvious problems. Don
=99t have a good explanation for why rpm dropped.
Bob H
__,_._,___
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List ttp://forum
s.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
</blockquote>
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List p://forums.ma
====================
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup |
The instructions about mounting my Facet pump were on the original Facet
pack which I still have some 21 years later. It clearly says that it
must be mounted at 45 degrees. Back in those days when we were running
on leaded fuel there was less of an issue with vapour lock as the VP of
that fuel was higher. When unleaded fuel became the norm, a fuel return
line was mandated in the UK to avoid the possibility of vapour locking.
I think Rotax also mandated it. I had to put a new return line into my
right tank to facilitate this.
Barry
912 Taildragger UK 1030 hours
From: barrynorman@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
My manuals never mentioned mounting the fuel pump at 45 degrees or
routing fuel back to the tank via a return line. As a matter of fact,
there were no provisions in the end plates for a fuel return or a
selector switch for feeding back to the appropriate tank. There wasn't
any information on a bypass for the electric pump either.
Barry.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
From: "Bernard Wilder" <bernard.wilder2@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 11:02:26 AM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
Bob,
You may remember that my initial theory was that the problem was with
the electric fuel pump.
Barry,
Is your electric fuel pump mounted on a 45 degree angle ? ? ? Mine
specified that it should be,
Do you have a jetted fuel line going from the fuel line between the
engine fuel pump and the carbs back to your fuel cells ? ? ? Rotax
standard instalation instructions specify that there be one.
Even with this bleed back path for hot fuel, and vapor formed in the
fuel line when the fuel cooks off and turning on the electric fuel
pump,, on a hot day when I forget to open the hatch on the top of my
cowl it is common for the engine to falter four to five minutes after
re-start. On such days I turn on my electric fuel pump run my engine
long enough to be past the time that the engine will run on the fuel
left over in the carb bowls.
Bernie Wilder
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Bob Heiser <w7ikt@fly-web.us> wrote:
Bob,
This has some similarities to my accident. I believe the electric
fuel pump blocked fuel flow in my plane. When the fuel pump was removed
I could not blow thru it in either direction, should have been able to
in the direction of flow. After shipping the fuel pump to the NTSB it
operated normally. Do you have a bypass and check valve around the
electric fuel pump?
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
On 9/10/2012 6:23 PM, Bob Hartunian wrote:
Flew out locally for bkfst on Sunday, past mountains to flatlands
and landed and all was fine. Got back into plane 45 min later and
started up fine. Did normal runup and had 5 gal in left tank, full right
tank, running off left, all was fine.
Took off normally and did another normal left crosswind turn toward
home and mountains. All indications normal including fuel pressure.
Climbing at 500 fpm, 100 mph, engine around 5100 rpm, when suddenly
engine rpm drops to almost idle. No shaking or vibes. Immediately kicked
on electric fuel pump but saw no indications for low fuel pressure, and
engine came back normally. I don=99t think the fuel pump really
did anything as engine just regained rpm and flew perfectly all the way
home for another 20 min. out over desert just in case.
I pulled cowl and checked things visually but no obvious problems.
Don=99t have a good explanation for why rpm dropped.
Bob H
__,_._,___
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup |
It sounds like I should go ahead and put in a return line. What did most pe
ople do for a return line? I was thinking about using a low pressure poppe
t valve (maybe 2-3 pounds) with a small fuel injection pill to restrict flo
w, installed in the fuel line before the split to t he carbs and route it b
ack to a tank. My concern is pumping to much fuel back to one tank. With po
ppet valve and pill, the fuel would only flow when pressure exceeded the pr
essure point of the poppet valve and then be restricted by the pill.
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry J Edwards" <barryjedwards@lineone.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 12:35:34 PM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
The instructions about mounting my Facet pump were on the original Facet pa
ck which I still have some 21 years later. It clearly says that it must be
mounted at 45 degrees. Back in those days when we were running on leaded fu
el there was less of an issue with vapour lock as the VP of that fuel was h
igher. When unleaded fuel became the norm, a fuel return line was mandated
in the UK to avoid the possibility of vapour locking. I think Rotax also ma
ndated it. I had to put a new return line into my right tank to facilitate
this.
=C2-
Barry
912 Taildragger UK 1030 hours=C2-
=C2-
From: barrynorman@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
=C2-
My manuals never mentioned mounting the fuel pump at 45 degrees or routing
fuel back to the tank via a return line. As a matter of fact, there were no
provisions in the end plates for a fuel return or a selector switch for fe
eding back to the appropriate tank. There wasn't any information on a bypas
s for the electric pump either.
=C2-
Barry.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bernard Wilder" <bernard.wilder2@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 11:02:26 AM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
Bob,
=C2-
You may remember that my initial theory was that the problem was with the e
lectric fuel pump.
=C2-
Barry,
=C2-
Is your electric fuel pump mounted on a 45 degree angle ? ? ?=C2- Mine sp
ecified that it should be,
=C2-
Do you have a jetted fuel line going from the fuel line between the engine
fuel pump and the carbs back to your fuel cells ? ? ? Rotax standard instal
ation instructions specify that there be one.
=C2-
Even with this bleed back path for hot fuel, and vapor formed in the fuel l
ine when the fuel cooks off and turning on the electric fuel pump,, on a ho
t day when I forget to open the hatch on the top of my cowl it is common fo
r the engine to falter four to five minutes after re-start. On such days I
turn on my electric fuel pump run my engine long enough to be past the time
that the engine will run on the fuel left over in the carb bowls.
=C2-
Bernie Wilder
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Bob Heiser < w7ikt@fly-web.us > wrote:
Bob,
This has some similarities to my accident.=C2- I believe the electric fue
l pump blocked fuel flow in my plane.=C2- When the fuel pump was removed
I could not blow thru it in either direction, should have been able to in t
he direction of flow.=C2- After shipping the fuel pump to the NTSB it ope
rated normally.=C2- Do you have a bypass and check valve around the elect
ric fuel pump?
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT On 9/10/2012 6:23 PM, Bob Hartunian wrote:
<blockquote>
=C2-
Flew out locally for bkfst on Sunday, past mountains to flatlands and lande
d and all was fine. Got back into plane 45 min later and started up fine. D
id normal runup and had 5 gal in left tank, full right tank, running off le
ft, all was fine.
Took off normally and did another normal left crosswind turn toward home an
d mountains. All indications normal including fuel pressure. Climbing at 50
0 fpm, 100 mph, engine around 5100 rpm, when suddenly engine rpm drops to a
lmost idle. No shaking or vibes. Immediately kicked on electric fuel pump b
ut saw no indications for low fuel pressure, and engine came back normally.
I don=99t think the fuel pump really did anything as engine just reg
ained rpm and flew perfectly all the way home for another 20 min. out over
desert just in case.
I pulled cowl and checked things visually but no obvious problems. Don
=99t have a good explanation for why rpm dropped.
Bob H
=C2-
__,_._,___
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List ttp://forum
s.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
</blockquote>
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List p://forums.ma
tronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums
.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.co
========================
==
Message 9
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|
| Subject: | Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup |
We use a simple Tee piece in the line after the fuel pump with a fine
jet in the discharge line back to the tank. the hole size is 0.35mm:
http://www.ekmpowershop2.com/ekmps/shops/conairsports/fuel-return-restric
tor-fsc-039-1743-p.asp
Simple and works well sending the minimum amount of fuel back to the
tank.
Barry
G-XPXP
From: barrynorman@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
It sounds like I should go ahead and put in a return line. What did most
people do for a return line? I was thinking about using a low pressure
poppet valve (maybe 2-3 pounds) with a small fuel injection pill to
restrict flow, installed in the fuel line before the split to the carbs
and route it back to a tank. My concern is pumping to much fuel back to
one tank. With poppet valve and pill, the fuel would only flow when
pressure exceeded the pressure point of the poppet valve and then be
restricted by the pill.
Barry
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
From: "Barry J Edwards" <barryjedwards@lineone.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 12:35:34 PM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
The instructions about mounting my Facet pump were on the original Facet
pack which I still have some 21 years later. It clearly says that it
must be mounted at 45 degrees. Back in those days when we were running
on leaded fuel there was less of an issue with vapour lock as the VP of
that fuel was higher. When unleaded fuel became the norm, a fuel return
line was mandated in the UK to avoid the possibility of vapour locking.
I think Rotax also mandated it. I had to put a new return line into my
right tank to facilitate this.
Barry
912 Taildragger UK 1030 hours
From: barrynorman@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
My manuals never mentioned mounting the fuel pump at 45 degrees or
routing fuel back to the tank via a return line. As a matter of fact,
there were no provisions in the end plates for a fuel return or a
selector switch for feeding back to the appropriate tank. There wasn't
any information on a bypass for the electric pump either.
Barry.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
From: "Bernard Wilder" <bernard.wilder2@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 11:02:26 AM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
Bob,
You may remember that my initial theory was that the problem was with
the electric fuel pump.
Barry,
Is your electric fuel pump mounted on a 45 degree angle ? ? ? Mine
specified that it should be,
Do you have a jetted fuel line going from the fuel line between the
engine fuel pump and the carbs back to your fuel cells ? ? ? Rotax
standard instalation instructions specify that there be one.
Even with this bleed back path for hot fuel, and vapor formed in the
fuel line when the fuel cooks off and turning on the electric fuel
pump,, on a hot day when I forget to open the hatch on the top of my
cowl it is common for the engine to falter four to five minutes after
re-start. On such days I turn on my electric fuel pump run my engine
long enough to be past the time that the engine will run on the fuel
left over in the carb bowls.
Bernie Wilder
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Bob Heiser <w7ikt@fly-web.us> wrote:
Bob,
This has some similarities to my accident. I believe the electric
fuel pump blocked fuel flow in my plane. When the fuel pump was removed
I could not blow thru it in either direction, should have been able to
in the direction of flow. After shipping the fuel pump to the NTSB it
operated normally. Do you have a bypass and check valve around the
electric fuel pump?
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
On 9/10/2012 6:23 PM, Bob Hartunian wrote:
Flew out locally for bkfst on Sunday, past mountains to flatlands
and landed and all was fine. Got back into plane 45 min later and
started up fine. Did normal runup and had 5 gal in left tank, full right
tank, running off left, all was fine.
Took off normally and did another normal left crosswind turn toward
home and mountains. All indications normal including fuel pressure.
Climbing at 500 fpm, 100 mph, engine around 5100 rpm, when suddenly
engine rpm drops to almost idle. No shaking or vibes. Immediately kicked
on electric fuel pump but saw no indications for low fuel pressure, and
engine came back normally. I don=99t think the fuel pump really
did anything as engine just regained rpm and flew perfectly all the way
home for another 20 min. out over desert just in case.
I pulled cowl and checked things visually but no obvious problems.
Don=99t have a good explanation for why rpm dropped.
Bob H
__,_._,___
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
p://forums.matronics.com
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup |
Thanks Barry!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry J Edwards" <barryjedwards@lineone.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 1:17:26 PM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
We use a simple Tee piece in the line after the fuel pump with a fine jet i
n the discharge line back to the tank. the hole size is 0.35mm:
http://www.ekmpowershop2.com/ekmps/shops/conairsports/fuel-return-restricto
r-fsc-039-1743-p.asp
=C2-
Simple and works well sending the minimum amount of fuel back to the tank.
=C2-
Barry
G-XPXP
=C2-
From: barrynorman@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
=C2-
It sounds like I should go ahead and put in a return line. What did most pe
ople do for a return line? I was thinking about using a low pressure poppet
valve (maybe 2-3 pounds) with a small fuel injection pill to restrict flow
, installed in the fuel line before the split to the carbs and route it bac
k to a tank. My concern is pumping to much fuel back to one tank. With popp
et valve and pill, the fuel would only flow when pressure exceeded the pres
sure point of the poppet valve and then be restricted by the pill.
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry J Edwards" <barryjedwards@lineone.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 12:35:34 PM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
The instructions about mounting my Facet pump were on the original Facet pa
ck which I still have some 21 years later. It clearly says that it must be
mounted at 45 degrees. Back in those days when we were running on leaded fu
el there was less of an issue with vapour lock as the VP of that fuel was h
igher. When unleaded fuel became the norm, a fuel return line was mandated
in the UK to avoid the possibility of vapour locking. I think Rotax also ma
ndated it. I had to put a new return line into my right tank to facilitate
this.
=C2-
Barry
912 Taildragger UK 1030 hours=C2-
=C2-
From: barrynorman@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
=C2-
My manuals never mentioned mounting the fuel pump at 45 degrees or routing
fuel back to the tank via a return line. As a matter of fact, there were no
provisions in the end plates for a fuel return or a selector switch for fe
eding back to the appropriate tank. There wasn't any information on a bypas
s for the electric pump either.
=C2-
Barry.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bernard Wilder" <bernard.wilder2@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 11:02:26 AM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
Bob,
=C2-
You may remember that my initial theory was that the problem was with the e
lectric fuel pump.
=C2-
Barry,
=C2-
Is your electric fuel pump mounted on a 45 degree angle ? ? ?=C2- Mine sp
ecified that it should be,
=C2-
Do you have a jetted fuel line going from the fuel line between the engine
fuel pump and the carbs back to your fuel cells ? ? ? Rotax standard instal
ation instructions specify that there be one.
=C2-
Even with this bleed back path for hot fuel, and vapor formed in the fuel l
ine when the fuel cooks off and turning on the electric fuel pump,, on a ho
t day when I forget to open the hatch on the top of my cowl it is common fo
r the engine to falter four to five minutes after re-start. On such days I
turn on my electric fuel pump run my engine long enough to be past the time
that the engine will run on the fuel left over in the carb bowls.
=C2-
Bernie Wilder
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Bob Heiser < w7ikt@fly-web.us > wrote:
Bob,
This has some similarities to my accident.=C2- I believe the electric fue
l pump blocked fuel flow in my plane.=C2- When the fuel pump was removed
I could not blow thru it in either direction, should have been able to in t
he direction of flow.=C2- After shipping the fuel pump to the NTSB it ope
rated normally.=C2- Do you have a bypass and check valve around the elect
ric fuel pump?
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT On 9/10/2012 6:23 PM, Bob Hartunian wrote:
<blockquote>
=C2-
Flew out locally for bkfst on Sunday, past mountains to flatlands and lande
d and all was fine. Got back into plane 45 min later and started up fine. D
id normal runup and had 5 gal in left tank, full right tank, running off le
ft, all was fine.
Took off normally and did another normal left crosswind turn toward home an
d mountains. All indications normal including fuel pressure. Climbing at 50
0 fpm, 100 mph, engine around 5100 rpm, when suddenly engine rpm drops to a
lmost idle. No shaking or vibes. Immediately kicked on electric fuel pump b
ut saw no indications for low fuel pressure, and engine came back normally.
I don=99t think the fuel pump really did anything as engine just reg
ained rpm and flew perfectly all the way home for another 20 min. out over
desert just in case.
I pulled cowl and checked things visually but no obvious problems. Don
=99t have a good explanation for why rpm dropped.
Bob H
=C2-
__,_._,___
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List ttp://forum
s.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
</blockquote>
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List p://forums.ma
tronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums
.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.co
m/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c arget=_blank>http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.mat
ronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-L
ist">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.ma
tronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matro
==============
==
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup |
Barry,
I took the Rotax Maintenance course and that is when I found out about the
fuel line back to the tank (or the fuel line from the tank). This was
something new. You can find information on the Rotax Webb-site. I bought
a manifold from Spruce to accommodate the fittings and the fuel jet size.
My Faucet instruction for the fuel pump said to mount at 45 Degrees.
Pulsar manuals said nothing along this line at least for my Kit 464.
Dennis
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:00 AM, <barrynorman@comcast.net> wrote:
> My manuals never mentioned mounting the fuel pump at 45 degrees or routin
g
> fuel back to the tank via a return line. As a matter of fact, there were
no
> provisions in the end plates for a fuel return or a selector switch for
> feeding back to the appropriate tank. There wasn't any information on a
> bypass for the electric pump either.
>
>
> Barry.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From: *"Bernard Wilder" <bernard.wilder2@gmail.com>
> *To: *pulsar-list@matronics.com
> *Sent: *Wednesday, September 12, 2012 11:02:26 AM
> *Subject: *Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
>
> Bob,
>
> You may remember that my initial theory was that the problem was with the
> electric fuel pump.
>
> Barry,
>
> Is your electric fuel pump mounted on a 45 degree angle ? ? ? Mine
> specified that it should be,
>
> Do you have a jetted fuel line going from the fuel line between the engin
e
> fuel pump and the carbs back to your fuel cells ? ? ? Rotax standard
> instalation instructions specify that there be one.
>
> Even with this bleed back path for hot fuel, and vapor formed in the fue
l
> line when the fuel cooks off and turning on the electric fuel pump,, on a
> hot day when I forget to open the hatch on the top of my cowl it is commo
n
> for the engine to falter four to five minutes after re-start. On such day
s
> I turn on my electric fuel pump run my engine long enough to be past the
> time that the engine will run on the fuel left over in the carb bowls.
>
> Bernie Wilder
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Bob Heiser <w7ikt@fly-web.us> wrote:
>
>> Bob,
>> This has some similarities to my accident. I believe the electric fuel
>> pump blocked fuel flow in my plane. When the fuel pump was removed I co
uld
>> not blow thru it in either direction, should have been able to in the
>> direction of flow. After shipping the fuel pump to the NTSB it operated
>> normally. Do you have a bypass and check valve around the electric fuel
>> pump?
>> *God Bless
>> Bob Heiser W7IKT*
>> On 9/10/2012 6:23 PM, Bob Hartunian wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Flew out locally for bkfst on Sunday, past mountains to flatlands and
>> landed and all was fine. Got back into plane 45 min later and started up
>> fine. Did normal runup and had 5 gal in left tank, full right tank, runn
ing
>> off left, all was fine.
>> Took off normally and did another normal left crosswind turn toward home
>> and mountains. All indications normal including fuel pressure. Climbing
at
>> 500 fpm, 100 mph, engine around 5100 rpm, when suddenly engine rpm drops
to
>> almost idle. No shaking or vibes. Immediately kicked on electric fuel pu
mp
>> but saw no indications for low fuel pressure, and engine came back
>> normally. I don=92t think the fuel pump really did anything as engine ju
st
>> regained rpm and flew perfectly all the way home for another 20 min. out
>> over desert just in case.
>> I pulled cowl and checked things visually but no obvious problems. Don
=92t
>> have a good explanation for why rpm dropped.
>> Bob H
>>
>> __,_._,___
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
> p://forums.matronics.com
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup |
How does the discharge line help with vapor locks? I thought that return li
nes were a good idea on injection systems.
Carlos
On Sep 12, 2012, at 10:29 AM, barrynorman@comcast.net wrote:
> Thanks Barry!
>
> From: "Barry J Edwards" <barryjedwards@lineone.net>
> To: pulsar-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 1:17:26 PM
> Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
>
> We use a simple Tee piece in the line after the fuel pump with a fine jet i
n the discharge line back to the tank. the hole size is 0.35mm:
> http://www.ekmpowershop2.com/ekmps/shops/conairsports/fuel-return-restrict
or-fsc-039-1743-p.asp
>
> Simple and works well sending the minimum amount of fuel back to the tank.
>
> Barry
> G-XPXP
>
> From: barrynorman@comcast.net
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 5:56 PM
> To: pulsar-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
>
> It sounds like I should go ahead and put in a return line. What did most p
eople do for a return line? I was thinking about using a low pressure poppet
valve (maybe 2-3 pounds) with a small fuel injection pill to restrict flow,
installed in the fuel line before the split to the carbs and route it back t
o a tank. My concern is pumping to much fuel back to one tank. With poppet v
alve and pill, the fuel would only flow when pressure exceeded the pressure p
oint of the poppet valve and then be restricted by the pill.
> Barry
> From: "Barry J Edwards" <barryjedwards@lineone.net>
> To: pulsar-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 12:35:34 PM
> Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
>
> The instructions about mounting my Facet pump were on the original Facet p
ack which I still have some 21 years later. It clearly says that it must be m
ounted at 45 degrees. Back in those days when we were running on leaded fuel
there was less of an issue with vapour lock as the VP of that fuel was high
er. When unleaded fuel became the norm, a fuel return line was mandated in t
he UK to avoid the possibility of vapour locking. I think Rotax also mandate
d it. I had to put a new return line into my right tank to facilitate this.
>
> Barry
> 912 Taildragger UK 1030 hours
>
> From: barrynorman@comcast.net
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 5:00 PM
> To: pulsar-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
>
> My manuals never mentioned mounting the fuel pump at 45 degrees or routing
fuel back to the tank via a return line. As a matter of fact, there were no
provisions in the end plates for a fuel return or a selector switch for fee
ding back to the appropriate tank. There wasn't any information on a bypass f
or the electric pump either.
>
> Barry.
>
> From: "Bernard Wilder" <bernard.wilder2@gmail.com>
> To: pulsar-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 11:02:26 AM
> Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
>
> Bob,
>
> You may remember that my initial theory was that the problem was with the e
lectric fuel pump.
>
> Barry,
>
> Is your electric fuel pump mounted on a 45 degree angle ? ? ? Mine specif
ied that it should be,
>
> Do you have a jetted fuel line going from the fuel line between the engine
fuel pump and the carbs back to your fuel cells ? ? ? Rotax standard instal
ation instructions specify that there be one.
>
> Even with this bleed back path for hot fuel, and vapor formed in the fuel l
ine when the fuel cooks off and turning on the electric fuel pump,, on a hot
day when I forget to open the hatch on the top of my cowl it is common for t
he engine to falter four to five minutes after re-start. On such days I turn
on my electric fuel pump run my engine long enough to be past the time that
the engine will run on the fuel left over in the carb bowls.
>
> Bernie Wilder
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Bob Heiser <w7ikt@fly-web.us> wrote:
> Bob,
> This has some similarities to my accident. I believe the electric fuel pu
mp blocked fuel flow in my plane. When the fuel pump was removed I could no
t blow thru it in either direction, should have been able to in the directio
n of flow. After shipping the fuel pump to the NTSB it operated normally. D
o you have a bypass and check valve around the electric fuel pump?
> God Bless
> Bob Heiser W7IKT
> On 9/10/2012 6:23 PM, Bob Hartunian wrote:
>
> Flew out locally for bkfst on Sunday, past mountains to flatlands and land
ed and all was fine. Got back into plane 45 min later and started up fine. D
id normal runup and had 5 gal in left tank, full right tank, running off lef
t, all was fine.
> Took off normally and did another normal left crosswind turn toward home a
nd mountains. All indications normal including fuel pressure. Climbing at 50
0 fpm, 100 mph, engine around 5100 rpm, when suddenly engine rpm drops to al
most idle. No shaking or vibes. Immediately kicked on electric fuel pump but
saw no indications for low fuel pressure, and engine came back normally. I d
on=99t think the fuel pump really did anything as engine just regained
rpm and flew perfectly all the way home for another 20 min. out over desert
just in case.
> I pulled cowl and checked things visually but no obvious problems. Don
=99t have a good explanation for why rpm dropped.
> Bob H
>
> __,_._,___
>
>
>
> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
> arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
> p://forums.matronics.com
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List">http://www.matronh
ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
> arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
> p://forums.matronics.com
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List">http://www.matronh
ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
> arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
> p://forums.matronics.com
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
==========================
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=========
==========================
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>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup |
Barry,
When you say nothing in the manuals, are you referring to Aero Design or
Sky Star manuals ? ? ? ? ?
I found nothing there either. It was in the Rotax installation manual. I
checked it out with the Ratax rep ((Senior brain fart - can't say his name
right now.)). that used to come to the Pulsar gatherings in Lawrence. He
confirmed that I should install one.
Dumby me, at first I connected it to one fuel cell. I was using the other
fuel cell and the feedback line filled the fuel cell and fuel began to run
out the vent. You have to put the feed back in a "T" in the fuel line after
the selector switch. That way, whichever fuel cell you are using, the fuel
will feed back there.
The manual specified the size jet to use. I found the right size jet at a
propane gas furnace repair facility and fashioned a way to put it in series
with the feedback line. Forget how I did it but I could take a look at it
and let you know if you are interested.
Bernie Wilder
n Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 12:00 PM, <barrynorman@comcast.net> wrote:
> My manuals never mentioned mounting the fuel pump at 45 degrees or
> routing fuel back to the tank via a return line. As a matter of fact, the
re
> were no provisions in the end plates for a fuel return or a selector swit
ch
> for feeding back to the appropriate tank. There wasn't any information on
a
> bypass for the electric pump either.
>
>
> Barry.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From: *"Bernard Wilder" <bernard.wilder2@gmail.com>
> *To: *pulsar-list@matronics.com
> *Sent: *Wednesday, September 12, 2012 11:02:26 AM
> *Subject: *Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
>
> Bob,
>
> You may remember that my initial theory was that the problem was with the
> electric fuel pump.
>
> Barry,
>
> Is your electric fuel pump mounted on a 45 degree angle ? ? ? Mine
> specified that it should be,
>
> Do you have a jetted fuel line going from the fuel line between the engin
e
> fuel pump and the carbs back to your fuel cells ? ? ? Rotax standard
> instalation instructions specify that there be one.
>
> Even with this bleed back path for hot fuel, and vapor formed in the fue
l
> line when the fuel cooks off and turning on the electric fuel pump,, on a
> hot day when I forget to open the hatch on the top of my cowl it is commo
n
> for the engine to falter four to five minutes after re-start. On such day
s
> I turn on my electric fuel pump run my engine long enough to be past the
> time that the engine will run on the fuel left over in the carb bowls.
>
> Bernie Wilder
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Bob Heiser <w7ikt@fly-web.us> wrote:
>
>> Bob,
>> This has some similarities to my accident. I believe the electric fuel
>> pump blocked fuel flow in my plane. When the fuel pump was removed I co
uld
>> not blow thru it in either direction, should have been able to in the
>> direction of flow. After shipping the fuel pump to the NTSB it operated
>> normally. Do you have a bypass and check valve around the electric fuel
>> pump?
>> *God Bless
>> Bob Heiser W7IKT*
>> On 9/10/2012 6:23 PM, Bob Hartunian wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Flew out locally for bkfst on Sunday, past mountains to flatlands and
>> landed and all was fine. Got back into plane 45 min later and started up
>> fine. Did normal runup and had 5 gal in left tank, full right tank, runn
ing
>> off left, all was fine.
>> Took off normally and did another normal left crosswind turn toward home
>> and mountains. All indications normal including fuel pressure. Climbing
at
>> 500 fpm, 100 mph, engine around 5100 rpm, when suddenly engine rpm drops
to
>> almost idle. No shaking or vibes. Immediately kicked on electric fuel pu
mp
>> but saw no indications for low fuel pressure, and engine came back
>> normally. I don=92t think the fuel pump really did anything as engine ju
st
>> regained rpm and flew perfectly all the way home for another 20 min. out
>> over desert just in case.
>> I pulled cowl and checked things visually but no obvious problems. Don
=92t
>> have a good explanation for why rpm dropped.
>> Bob H
>>
>> __,_._,___
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
>> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
> p://forums.matronics.com
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
> *
>
===========
>
===========
===========
===========
>
> *
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup |
Barry,=0A=0AFixing a different fuel and engine run problem, I experienced w
hat you refer to =0Aas fuel boil with my 582.=C2- The side of the engine
compartment with a gascolator, =0Athe carburetors and their fuel lines woul
d get so hot on hot days that when I =0Astopped the engine, I could hear th
e gurgle of the fuel at a boil.=C2- If I quickly =0Ajumped out, opened th
e cowling, I could see a bubble (vacuum) bounce in the fuel =0Aline(s).=C2
- It also seems line the hottest thing of my engine, the muffler, sits
=0Aright below the plumbing of the auxiliary fuel pump, gascolator and a ma
jor =0Aportion of the fuel line route, so when the engine is off, the conve
ction of =0Aheat naturally wants to rise, but gets=C2-held in place by th
e cowling.=C2-=0A=0AI solved my problem by improving the the source of co
ol air.=C2- All of the air =0Afeeding the carburetors, and cooling the fu
el distribution would go through the =0Aradiator at the left cowling air in
let.=C2- It was sealed well at top and bottom by =0Aits fiberglass mounts
and then on the left and right with heavy flexible, =0Acarefully cut to fi
t baffling material that was glued to the radiator sides =0A(solved over-he
ating during taxiing on hot days).=C2- I removed one side of the =0Abaffl
ing material to allow cool fresh air to this boiling fuel problem side.=C2
- I =0Adon't have a boiling fuel problem anymore and fortunately can stil
l taxi on 90+ =0Adegree days without ever over heating.=0A=0AI hope this is
of help.=C2- Try to get more cool air to the boiling fuel areas.=0A=0ARo
nko=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "barrynorman@com
cast.net" <barrynorman@comcast.net>=0ATo: pulsar-list@matronics.com=0ASent:
Wed, September 12, 2012 9:19:14 AM=0ASubject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar
-Aviators] 912 Hiccup=0A=0A=0AI had an event this summer that was similiar
but I don't think it had anything =0Ato do with the fuel pump. It was a fai
rly warm day and I had taken my son up for =0Aa ride in the Pulsar III and
returned after a 30 minute flight where everything =0Awas perfectly normal.
I shut the plane down for a few minutes while we loaded =0Aanother passeng
er and had a very difficult time restarting the plane. This was =0Anot anyt
hing new in this situation as I think the fuel starts to boil in the =0Abow
ls making it difficult to start and get fresh fuel in due to the pressure i
n =0Athe bowls. I finally got it started and it ran rough for a few minutes
but =0Acleared up. I taxied to the runway and as I fed in power for takeof
f, the RPM =0Adropped and the engine quit. The plane refused to restart so
I brought it back =0Ato the hanger. I came back the next day and the plane
started right up and ran =0Afine. This is a pattern I've noticed=C2-on my
plane that appears to be vapor lock =0Aon warm days. Once those carb bowls
get heat soaked from sitting, the problem =0Ashows up. =0A=0A=C2-=0ABarr
y=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AFrom: "Bob Heiser" <w7ikt@f
ly-web.us>=0ATo: pulsar-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, September 12,
2012 9:27:00 AM=0ASubject: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
=0A=0A=0ABob,=0AThis has some similarities to my accident.=C2- I believe
the electric fuel pump =0Ablocked fuel flow in my plane.=C2- When the fue
l pump was removed I could not blow =0Athru it in either direction, should
have been able to in the direction of flow.=C2- =0AAfter shipping the fue
l pump to the NTSB it operated normally.=C2- Do you have a =0Abypass and
check valve around the electric fuel pump?=0A=0AGod Bless=0ABob Heiser W7IK
TOn 9/10/2012 6:23 PM, Bob Hartunian wrote:=0A=0A=C2- =0A>Flew out locall
y for bkfst on Sunday, past mountains to flatlands and landed and =0A>all w
as fine. Got back into plane 45 min later and started up fine. Did normal
=0A>runup and had 5 gal in left tank, full right tank, running off left, al
l was =0A>fine.=0A>Took off normally and did another normal left crosswind
turn toward home and =0A>mountains. All indications normal including fuel p
ressure. Climbing at 500 fpm, =0A>100 mph, engine around 5100 rpm, when sud
denly engine rpm drops to almost idle. =0A>No shaking or vibes. Immediately
kicked on electric fuel pump but saw no =0A>indications for low fuel press
ure, and engine came back normally. I don=99t think =0A>the fuel pump
really did anything as engine just regained rpm and flew perfectly =0A>all
the way home for another 20 min. out over desert just in case.=0A>I pulled
cowl and checked things visually but no obvious problems. Don=99t ha
ve a =0A>good explanation for why rpm dropped.=0A>Bob H=0A>=0A>=0A>__,_._,_
__=0A=0A arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
=0Ap://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
========================
=0A
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup |
Thanks for all the helpful tips. When I referred to the manuals, I was spea
king of the Skystar building manuals.=C2-I'm going to redo the fuel syste
m to include a fuel return and remounting the fuel pump and a fuel pump byp
ass with check valve. It's=C2-looks like I need more cool air under the c
owling on hot days and I think I have a solution for that. While doing some
research on it today, I found someone else who had the exact same issues i
n a=C2-Rotax 912s powered=C2-=C2-Dyn Aero MCR01. He had=C2-a fuel r
eturn and had the exact same symptoms as mine. Both planes have very tight
cowlings. His problem turned out to be overheating of the electronic igniti
on on warm days. Here is the URL http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-
271030.html .
=C2-
I have an air scoop on the side of my cowling that I use for a ram air setu
p during the warm months.=C2-During the winter I take the ram air off and
plug the scoop with a tennis ball.=C2-If I remove the ball, it will let
a lot more cool air=C2-into the top of the cowling when not using the ram
air. When this problem occurred=C2-this summer I had it plugged without
the ram system making very warm in the cowling.
=C2-
Thanks to all,
Barry=C2-=C2-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Koval" <ronko@att.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 3:12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
Barry,
=C2-
Fixing a different fuel and engine run problem, I experienced what you refe
r to as fuel boil with my 582.=C2- The side of the engine compartment wit
h a gascolator, the carburetors and their fuel lines would get so hot on ho
t days that when I stopped the engine, I could hear the gurgle of the fuel
at a boil.=C2- If I quickly jumped out, opened the cowling, I could see a
bubble (vacuum) bounce in the fuel line(s).=C2- It also seems line the h
ottest thing of my engine, the muffler, sits right below the plumbing of th
e auxiliary fuel pump, gascolator and a major portion of the fuel line rout
e, so when the engine is off, the convection of heat naturally wants to ris
e, but gets=C2-held in place by the cowling.=C2-
=C2-
I solved my problem by improving the the source of cool air.=C2- All of t
he air feeding the carburetors, and cooling the fuel distribution would go
through the radiator at the left cowling air inlet.=C2- It was sealed wel
l at top and bottom by its fiberglass mounts and then on the left and right
with heavy flexible, carefully cut to fit baffling material that was glued
to the radiator sides (solved over-heating during taxiing on hot days).=C2
- I removed one side of the baffling material to allow cool fresh air to
this boiling fuel problem side.=C2- I don't have a boiling fuel problem a
nymore and fortunately can still taxi on 90+ degree days without ever over
heating.
=C2-
I hope this is of help.=C2- Try to get more cool air to the boiling fuel
areas.
=C2-
Ronko
From: "barrynorman@comcast.net" <barrynorman@comcast.net>
Sent: Wed, September 12, 2012 9:19:14 AM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
I had an event this summer that was similiar but I don't think it had anyth
ing to do with the fuel pump. It was a fairly warm day and I had taken my s
on up for a ride in the Pulsar III and returned after a 30 minute flight wh
ere everything was perfectly normal. I shut the plane down for a few minute
s while we loaded another passenger and had a very difficult time restartin
g the plane. This was not anything new in this situation as I think the fue
l starts to boil in the bowls making it difficult to start and get fresh fu
el in due to the pressure in the bowls. I finally got it started and it ran
rough for a few minutes but cleared up. I taxied to the runway and as I fe
d in power for takeoff, the RPM dropped and the engine quit. The plane refu
sed to restart so I brought it back to the hanger. I came back the next day
and the plane started right up and ran fine. This is a pattern I've notice
d=C2-on my plane that appears to be vapor lock on warm days. Once those c
arb bowls get heat soaked from sitting, the problem shows up.
=C2-
Barry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Heiser" <w7ikt@fly-web.us>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 9:27:00 AM
Subject: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
Bob,
This has some similarities to my accident.=C2- I believe the electric fue
l pump blocked fuel flow in my plane.=C2- When the fuel pump was removed
I could not blow thru it in either direction, should have been able to in t
he direction of flow.=C2- After shipping the fuel pump to the NTSB it ope
rated normally.=C2- Do you have a bypass and check valve around the elect
ric fuel pump?
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT On 9/10/2012 6:23 PM, Bob Hartunian wrote:
=C2-
Flew out locally for bkfst on Sunday, past mountains to flatlands and lande
d and all was fine. Got back into plane 45 min later and started up fine. D
id normal runup and had 5 gal in left tank, full right tank, running off le
ft, all was fine.
Took off normally and did another normal left crosswind turn toward home an
d mountains. All indications normal including fuel pressure. Climbing at 50
0 fpm, 100 mph, engine around 5100 rpm, when suddenly engine rpm drops to a
lmost idle. No shaking or vibes. Immediately kicked on electric fuel pump b
ut saw no indications for low fuel pressure, and engine came back normally.
I don=99t think the fuel pump really did anything as engine just reg
ained rpm and flew perfectly all the way home for another 20 min. out over
desert just in case.
I pulled cowl and checked things visually but no obvious problems. Don
=99t have a good explanation for why rpm dropped.
Bob H
__,_._,___
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List p://forums.ma
tronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Puls==================
======
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup |
On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 08:27:00 -0500
Bob Heiser <w7ikt@fly-web.us> wrote:
> Bob,
> This has some similarities to my accident. I believe
>the electric fuel pump blocked fuel flow in my plane.
> When the fuel pump was removed I could not blow thru it
>in either direction, should have been able to in the
>direction of flow. After shipping the fuel pump to the
>NTSB it operated normally. Do you have a bypass and
>check valve around the electric fuel pump?
> *God Bless
> Bob Heiser W7IKT*
> On 9/10/2012 6:23 PM, Bob Hartunian wrote:
>>
>> Flew out locally for bkfst on Sunday, past mountains to
>>flatlands and
>> landed and all was fine. Got back into plane 45 min
>>later and started
>> up fine. Did normal runup and had 5 gal in left tank,
>>full right tank,
>> running off left, all was fine.
>> Took off normally and did another normal left crosswind
>>turn toward
>> home and mountains. All indications normal including
>>fuel pressure.
>> Climbing at 500 fpm, 100 mph, engine around 5100 rpm,
>>when suddenly
>> engine rpm drops to almost idle. No shaking or vibes.
>>Immediately
>> kicked on electric fuel pump but saw no indications for
>>low fuel
>> pressure, and engine came back normally. I don't think
>>the fuel pump
>> really did anything as engine just regained rpm and flew
>>perfectly all
>> the way home for another 20 min. out over desert just in
>>case.
>> I pulled cowl and checked things visually but no obvious
>>problems.
>> Don't have a good explanation for why rpm dropped.
>> Bob H
>>
>>
>> __,_._,___
>
My Pulsar gross weight is 1060.
Clarke
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup |
Barry,
What you must also concider is extraction and because the intake
is relatively large (on a Pulsar I would say over sized) and ram fed,
high pressure - the extraction should be at least three and a half times
larger being low pressure (basic principal) if you don't keep to this
ratio you build up a high pressure under the cowl (some people have
reported bulging upper cowls) which restricts the flow.
Look at the La Presti cowls very small inlets - good size
extraction ( see a RV12) they don't seem to have a problem.
Food for thought
Keith
----- Original Message -----
From: barrynorman@comcast.net
To: pulsar-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
Thanks for all the helpful tips. When I referred to the manuals, I was
speaking of the Skystar building manuals. I'm going to redo the fuel
system to include a fuel return and remounting the fuel pump and a fuel
pump bypass with check valve. It's looks like I need more cool air under
the cowling on hot days and I think I have a solution for that. While
doing some research on it today, I found someone else who had the exact
same issues in a Rotax 912s powered Dyn Aero MCR01. He had a fuel
return and had the exact same symptoms as mine. Both planes have very
tight cowlings. His problem turned out to be overheating of the
electronic ignition on warm days. Here is the URL
http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-271030.html.
I have an air scoop on the side of my cowling that I use for a ram air
setup during the warm months. During the winter I take the ram air off
and plug the scoop with a tennis ball. If I remove the ball, it will let
a lot more cool air into the top of the cowling when not using the ram
air. When this problem occurred this summer I had it plugged without the
ram system making very warm in the cowling.
Thanks to all,
Barry
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: "Ron Koval" <ronko@att.net>
To: pulsar-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 3:12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
Barry,
Fixing a different fuel and engine run problem, I experienced what you
refer to as fuel boil with my 582. The side of the engine compartment
with a gascolator, the carburetors and their fuel lines would get so hot
on hot days that when I stopped the engine, I could hear the gurgle of
the fuel at a boil. If I quickly jumped out, opened the cowling, I
could see a bubble (vacuum) bounce in the fuel line(s). It also seems
line the hottest thing of my engine, the muffler, sits right below the
plumbing of the auxiliary fuel pump, gascolator and a major portion of
the fuel line route, so when the engine is off, the convection of heat
naturally wants to rise, but gets held in place by the cowling.
I solved my problem by improving the the source of cool air. All of
the air feeding the carburetors, and cooling the fuel distribution would
go through the radiator at the left cowling air inlet. It was sealed
well at top and bottom by its fiberglass mounts and then on the left and
right with heavy flexible, carefully cut to fit baffling material that
was glued to the radiator sides (solved over-heating during taxiing on
hot days). I removed one side of the baffling material to allow cool
fresh air to this boiling fuel problem side. I don't have a boiling
fuel problem anymore and fortunately can still taxi on 90+ degree days
without ever over heating.
I hope this is of help. Try to get more cool air to the boiling fuel
areas.
Ronko
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: "barrynorman@comcast.net" <barrynorman@comcast.net>
To: pulsar-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wed, September 12, 2012 9:19:14 AM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
I had an event this summer that was similiar but I don't think it had
anything to do with the fuel pump. It was a fairly warm day and I had
taken my son up for a ride in the Pulsar III and returned after a 30
minute flight where everything was perfectly normal. I shut the plane
down for a few minutes while we loaded another passenger and had a very
difficult time restarting the plane. This was not anything new in this
situation as I think the fuel starts to boil in the bowls making it
difficult to start and get fresh fuel in due to the pressure in the
bowls. I finally got it started and it ran rough for a few minutes but
cleared up. I taxied to the runway and as I fed in power for takeoff,
the RPM dropped and the engine quit. The plane refused to restart so I
brought it back to the hanger. I came back the next day and the plane
started right up and ran fine. This is a pattern I've noticed on my
plane that appears to be vapor lock on warm days. Once those carb bowls
get heat soaked from sitting, the problem shows up.
Barry
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: "Bob Heiser" <w7ikt@fly-web.us>
To: pulsar-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 9:27:00 AM
Subject: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] 912 Hiccup
Bob,
This has some similarities to my accident. I believe the electric
fuel pump blocked fuel flow in my plane. When the fuel pump was removed
I could not blow thru it in either direction, should have been able to
in the direction of flow. After shipping the fuel pump to the NTSB it
operated normally. Do you have a bypass and check valve around the
electric fuel pump?
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
On 9/10/2012 6:23 PM, Bob Hartunian wrote:
Flew out locally for bkfst on Sunday, past mountains to flatlands
and landed and all was fine. Got back into plane 45 min later and
started up fine. Did normal runup and had 5 gal in left tank, full right
tank, running off left, all was fine.
Took off normally and did another normal left crosswind turn toward
home and mountains. All indications normal including fuel pressure.
Climbing at 500 fpm, 100 mph, engine around 5100 rpm, when suddenly
engine rpm drops to almost idle. No shaking or vibes. Immediately kicked
on electric fuel pump but saw no indications for low fuel pressure, and
engine came back normally. I don=99t think the fuel pump really
did anything as engine just regained rpm and flew perfectly all the way
home for another 20 min. out over desert just in case.
I pulled cowl and checked things visually but no obvious problems.
Don=99t have a good explanation for why rpm dropped.
Bob H
__,_._,___
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Puls============
===========
= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List
; http://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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