Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:13 AM - Wing tanks in wood wing? (Sonja Englert)
2. 09:04 AM - Re: Wing tanks in wood wing? (everettmcollier)
3. 10:44 AM - Re: Wing tanks in wood wing? (GREGSMI@aol.com)
4. 10:55 AM - Re: Wing tanks in wood wing? (pulsarbob@comcast.net)
5. 11:34 AM - Re: Wing tanks in wood wing? (Barry J Edwards)
6. 01:56 PM - Re: Wing tanks in wood wing? (GREGSMI@aol.com)
7. 08:11 PM - Pulsar Bladder tanks (Keith Palmer)
8. 11:41 PM - Pulsar Bladder tanks (Keith Palmer)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Wing tanks in wood wing? |
Hello Group,
Has anyone made wing tanks for a Pulsar 1 (wood wing)?
Sonja
Matt,
I suggest we ask the group if anyone has made wing tanks for a wood
wing before. Maybe it is not necessary to reinvent the wheel.
Sonja
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Matthew Brock <mattbrock777@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Results
Wow Sonja,
That was nice and fast!
I'll put together what I'm thinking of doing regarding a wing tank upgrade/
modification of the wood-wood wing, so you can let me know your thoughts.
Would you be happy to have a similar arrangement as we had for the Fuselage/
Wing structural modifications, as perhaps there are guys out there with kits
who would like this option also?
Again thanks so much for your work and input.
Regards,
Matt.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sonja Englert [mailto:paqs345@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 7:46 PM
Subject: Results
Hi Matt,
I have completed the analysis and the summary of the changes you need to
make to your kit to upgrade it to the higher gross weight. Most of it is for
the wing, not much needs to be done to the fuselage and nothing for the tail
since you already have the correct HT spar tube.
I don't know what the layup of your horizontal and vertical tail skins is,
so I am assuming it is at least 2 plies of 9 oz/sqyd fabric. If it is
thinner, you need to add this.
I am attaching the 2 files with the summary.
Sonja
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Wing tanks in wood wing? |
I have a 582 Pulsar I with wing tanks. I have the wood spar with the xp type glass
skins. Had to make new ribs to do this. The spare is coated with 45 degree
S glass to strengthen it and protect it from the fuel. Coated with Jeffco
9700. Okay so far as I know.
Everett
Sent from my iPad.
> On Jan 29, 2014, at 8:13 AM, Sonja Englert <paqs345@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hello Group,
>
> Has anyone made wing tanks for a Pulsar 1 (wood wing)?
>
> Sonja
>
>
>
>
> Matt,
>
> I suggest we ask the group if anyone has made wing tanks for a wood
> wing before. Maybe it is not necessary to reinvent the wheel.
>
> Sonja
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Matthew Brock <mattbrock777@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:15:34 +0400
> Subject: RE: Results
> To: Sonja Englert <paqs345@gmail.com>
>
> Wow Sonja,
>
> That was nice and fast!
>
> I'll put together what I'm thinking of doing regarding a wing tank upgrade/
> modification of the wood-wood wing, so you can let me know your thoughts.
> Would you be happy to have a similar arrangement as we had for the Fuselage/
> Wing structural modifications, as perhaps there are guys out there with kits
> who would like this option also?
>
> Again thanks so much for your work and input.
>
> Regards,
>
> Matt.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sonja Englert [mailto:paqs345@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 7:46 PM
> To: Matt Brock
> Subject: Results
>
> Hi Matt,
>
> I have completed the analysis and the summary of the changes you need to
> make to your kit to upgrade it to the higher gross weight. Most of it is for
> the wing, not much needs to be done to the fuselage and nothing for the tail
> since you already have the correct HT spar tube.
> I don't know what the layup of your horizontal and vertical tail skins is,
> so I am assuming it is at least 2 plies of 9 oz/sqyd fabric. If it is
> thinner, you need to add this.
>
> I am attaching the 2 files with the summary.
>
> Sonja
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Wing tanks in wood wing? |
The wood wing Pulsar uses a spruce wood spacer with uni-directional glass
spar caps. The strength of the spar is in the spar caps which were bonded
with room temp cured structural adhesive. This wing was never intended to
carry fuel, and as we have found out now, the room temp cured structural
adhesive will not stand up to any type of fuel. Failure of the bond in the spar
cap is a failed wing.
In using Jeffco we have found that as it cures it has small pin holes due
to off gassing. We applied several coats to try to make sure all holes were
filled, and then covered the tank in PRC, but still, there is a chance of a
leak which could penetrate the structural adhesive on a wood wing Pulsar.
Another thing to think about is that the wing flexes and twist in flight.
Jeffco sets up very hard and may be subject to cracking. For that reason I
would never attempt to put fuel in a wood wing Pulsar. It is possible for a
leak to go undetected until the cap fails, not a good thing.
The glass spars were made with high temp epoxy and cured in a oven and do
resist fuel, although the new formulations of fuel and ethanol may be an
issue so checking the seal often is a great idea.
Be safe,
Greg
In a message dated 1/29/2014 10:13:50 A.M. Central Standard Time,
paqs345@gmail.com writes:
--> Pulsar-List message posted by: Sonja Englert <paqs345@gmail.com>
Hello Group,
Has anyone made wing tanks for a Pulsar 1 (wood wing)?
Sonja
Matt,
I suggest we ask the group if anyone has made wing tanks for a wood
wing before. Maybe it is not necessary to reinvent the wheel.
Sonja
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Matthew Brock <mattbrock777@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Results
Wow Sonja,
That was nice and fast!
I'll put together what I'm thinking of doing regarding a wing tank upgrade/
modification of the wood-wood wing, so you can let me know your thoughts.
Would you be happy to have a similar arrangement as we had for the
Fuselage/
Wing structural modifications, as perhaps there are guys out there with
kits
who would like this option also?
Again thanks so much for your work and input.
Regards,
Matt.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sonja Englert [mailto:paqs345@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 7:46 PM
Subject: Results
Hi Matt,
I have completed the analysis and the summary of the changes you need to
make to your kit to upgrade it to the higher gross weight. Most of it is
for
the wing, not much needs to be done to the fuselage and nothing for the
tail
since you already have the correct HT spar tube.
I don't know what the layup of your horizontal and vertical tail skins is,
so I am assuming it is at least 2 plies of 9 oz/sqyd fabric. If it is
thinner, you need to add this.
I am attaching the 2 files with the summary.
Sonja
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Wing tanks in wood wing? |
Sonja
I built a set of wings with fiberglass spars with fuel tanks in both wings.
My question is, Can I use these tanks with a 582 engine, providing I stay in the
weight and balance using the 582 for power ? Your thoughts , Thanks
Pulsarbob, Bob Taylor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sonja Englert" <paqs345@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 11:13:02 AM
Subject: Pulsar-List: Wing tanks in wood wing?
Hello Group,
Has anyone made wing tanks for a Pulsar 1 (wood wing)?
Sonja
Matt,
I suggest we ask the group if anyone has made wing tanks for a wood
wing before. Maybe it is not necessary to reinvent the wheel.
Sonja
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Matthew Brock <mattbrock777@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Results
Wow Sonja,
That was nice and fast!
I'll put together what I'm thinking of doing regarding a wing tank upgrade/
modification of the wood-wood wing, so you can let me know your thoughts.
Would you be happy to have a similar arrangement as we had for the Fuselage/
Wing structural modifications, as perhaps there are guys out there with kits
who would like this option also?
Again thanks so much for your work and input.
Regards,
Matt.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sonja Englert [mailto:paqs345@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 7:46 PM
Subject: Results
Hi Matt,
I have completed the analysis and the summary of the changes you need to
make to your kit to upgrade it to the higher gross weight. Most of it is for
the wing, not much needs to be done to the fuselage and nothing for the tail
since you already have the correct HT spar tube.
I don't know what the layup of your horizontal and vertical tail skins is,
so I am assuming it is at least 2 plies of 9 oz/sqyd fabric. If it is
thinner, you need to add this.
I am attaching the 2 files with the summary.
Sonja
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Wing tanks in wood wing? |
Greg,
This isn=99t quite correct. I have a Pulsar XP supplied with wing
tanks AND WOOD wings from Aero Designs. The wings had to be strengthened
with 6=9D wide glass on both sides of the spar (to within about
6=9D of the tip) and with plenty of resin on the fuel side to
ensure complete sealing. One of my wings has long since lost all of the
old =98Kreem=99 sealant yet close inspection reveals no
degradation of the glass structure inside the wing, or of the structural
adhesive around the fuel cap. Of course, it may be that UK fuel has a
different make-up to you stuff but my wings are fine after 22 years.
Barry
G-XPXP Pulsar XP R912 Taildragger 1050 hrs.
From: GREGSMI@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Wing tanks in wood wing?
The wood wing Pulsar uses a spruce wood spacer with uni-directional
glass spar caps. The strength of the spar is in the spar caps which were
bonded with room temp cured structural adhesive. This wing was never
intended to carry fuel, and as we have found out now, the room temp
cured structural adhesive will not stand up to any type of fuel. Failure
of the bond in the spar cap is a failed wing.
In using Jeffco we have found that as it cures it has small pin holes
due to off gassing. We applied several coats to try to make sure all
holes were filled, and then covered the tank in PRC, but still, there is
a chance of a leak which could penetrate the structural adhesive on a
wood wing Pulsar. Another thing to think about is that the wing flexes
and twist in flight. Jeffco sets up very hard and may be subject to
cracking. For that reason I would never attempt to put fuel in a wood
wing Pulsar. It is possible for a leak to go undetected until the cap
fails, not a good thing.
The glass spars were made with high temp epoxy and cured in a oven and
do resist fuel, although the new formulations of fuel and ethanol may be
an issue so checking the seal often is a great idea.
Be safe,
Greg
In a message dated 1/29/2014 10:13:50 A.M. Central Standard Time,
paqs345@gmail.com writes:
Hello Group,
Has anyone made wing tanks for a Pulsar 1 (wood wing)?
Sonja
Matt,
I suggest we ask the group if anyone has made wing tanks for a wood
wing before. Maybe it is not necessary to reinvent the wheel.
Sonja
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Matthew Brock <mattbrock777@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:15:34 +0400
Subject: RE: Results
To: Sonja Englert <paqs345@gmail.com>
Wow Sonja,
That was nice and fast!
I'll put together what I'm thinking of doing regarding a wing tank
upgrade/
modification of the wood-wood wing, so you can let me know your
thoughts.
Would you be happy to have a similar arrangement as we had for the
Fuselage/
Wing structural modifications, as perhaps there are guys out there
with kits
who would like this option also?
Again thanks so much for your work and input.
Regards,
Matt.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sonja Englert [mailto:paqs345@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 7:46 PM
To: Matt Brock
Subject: Results
Hi Matt,
I have completed the analysis and the summary of the changes you need
to
make to your kit to upgrade it to the higher gross weight. Most of it
is for
the wing, not much needs to be done to the fuselage and nothing for
the tail
since you already have the correct HT spar tube.
I don't know what the layup of your horizontal and vertical tail skins
is,
so I am assuming it is at least 2 plies of 9 oz/sqyd fabric. If it is
thinner, you need to add this.
I am attaching the 2 files with the sp; the ies ay -
MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - List Contribution Web Site p;
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Wing tanks in wood wing? |
Barry, I can only tell you what I have tested and the facts are very
clear, room temperature cured structural adhesive will dissolve if exposed
to
fuel. If it were mine I would cut an access to the tanks, clean the spar an
d
apply several coats of Jeffco followed by a good thick coat of PRC. All of
those coats would cover the spar and lap at least two inches onto the tank
skin. I would also make sure the end plates were sealed in the same way.
I am not sure if we have different additives in our fuel and ethanol is the
worse, but when a room temp cured piece of glass tape was put in a jar of
fuel, it totally dissolved the adhesive. Who knows how long it will take
for fuel going through a pin hole or crack to dissolve the adhesive, did n
ot
test a pin hole.
Over the years we have learned a lot more about composites and adhesives. I
know we applied real thick coats of epoxy to the inside of the header
tanks and set the fuel cap with structural adhesive and we have heard of
several cases of the fuel cap developing leaks due to the adhesive dissolv
ing.
Maybe the epoxy helps seal the rest but we have heard of some leaks
developing when ethanol fuel was used.
The critical factor here is the spar caps are attached to the spruce spacer
using room temp cured structural adhesive and we know that if room temp
cured structural adhesive is soaked in fuel, it dissolves. Given what we k
now
now, are there things we can do to make the plane safer?
Greg
In a message dated 1/29/2014 1:35:08 P.M. Central Standard Time,
barry@connisbeare.com writes:
Greg,
This isn=99t quite correct. I have a Pulsar XP supplied with wing tan
ks AND
WOOD wings from Aero Designs. The wings had to be strengthened with 6
=9D wide
glass on both sides of the spar (to within about 6=9D of the tip) and
with
plea nty of resin on the fuel side to ensure complete sealing. One of my
wings has long since lost all of the old =98Kreem=99 sealant y
et close inspection
reveals no degradation of the glass structure inside the wing, or of the
structural adhesive around the fuel cap. Of course, it may be that UK fuel
has a different make-up to you stuff but my wings are fine after 22 years.
Barry
G-XPXP Pulsar XP R912 Taildragger 1050 hrs.
From: _GREGSMI@aol.com_ (mailto:GREGSMI@aol.com)
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Wing tanks in wood wing?
The wood wing Pulsar uses a spruce wood spacer with uni-directional glass
spar caps. The strength of the spar is in the spar caps which were bonded
with room temp cured structural adhesive. This wing was never intended to
carry fuel, and as we have found out now, the room temp cured structural
adhesive will not stand up to any type of fuel. Failure of the bond in the
spar
cap is a failed wing.
In using Jeffco we have found that as it cures it has small pin holes due
to off gassing. We applied several coats to try to make sure all holes were
filled, and then covered the tank in PRC, but still, there is a chance of a
leak which could penetrate the structural adhesive on a wood wing Pulsar.
Another thing to think about is that the wing flexes and twist in flight.
Jeffco sets up very hard and may be subject to cracking. For that reason I
would never attempt to put fuel in a wood wing Pulsar. It is possible for a
leak to go undetected until the cap fails, not a good thing.
The glass spars were made with high temp epoxy and cured in a oven and do
resist fuel, although the new formulations of fuel and ethanol may be an
issue so checking the seal often is a great idea.
Be safe,
Greg
In a message dated 1/29/2014 10:13:50 A.M. Central Standard Time,
paqs345@gmail.com writes:
--> Pulsar-List message posted by: Sonja Englert <paqs345@gmail.com>
Hello Group,
Has anyone made wing tanks for a Pulsar 1 (wood wing)?
Sonja
Matt,
I suggest we ask the group if anyone has made wing tanks for a wood
wing before. Maybe it is not necessary to reinvent the wheel.
Sonja
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Matthew Brock <mattbrock777@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Results
Wow Sonja,
That was nice and fast!
I'll put together what I'm thinking of doing regarding a wing tank upgrade
/
modification of the wood-wood wing, so you can let me know your thoughts.
Would you be happy to have a similar arrangement as we had for the
Fuselage/
Wing structural modifications, as perhaps there are guys out there with
kits
who would like this option also?
Again thanks so much for your work and input.
Regards,
Matt.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sonja Englert [mailto:paqs345@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 7:46 PM
Subject: Results
Hi Matt,
I have completed the analysis and the summary of the changes you need to
make to your kit to upgrade it to the higher gross weight. Most of it is
for
the wing, not much needs to be done to the fuselage and nothing for the
tail
since you already have the correct HT spar tube.
I don't know what the layup of your horizontal and vertical tail skins is,
so I am assuming it is at least 2 plies of 9 oz/sqyd fabric. If it is
thinner, you need to add this.
I am attaching the 2 files with the sp; the ies ay -
MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - List Contribution Web Site p;
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 7
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| Subject: | Pulsar Bladder tanks |
Message 8
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| Subject: | Pulsar Bladder tanks |
There are flexible tanks made in Italy for the Pulsar wings which may
solve
the problem, but very expensive, if there is any interest I could dig up
the
site for you ?
Right and left wing tip tanks (SFT/1716 - 1717) for VLA Pulsar XP42
Original
volume 39 + 39 liters Bladder fuel cells valume 33 + 33 liters
BLADDER FUEL CELLS
Sede
: Localit=E0 Monte le Mole 15 ' 00060 CAPENA (Rm)
E-MAIL : info@merin.it Tel : 06 / 9074553
Fax
:
06 / 9032191
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