Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:54 AM - Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic (Thom Riddle)
2. 06:09 AM - Re: Icing: 912S versus 912 (FLYaDIVE)
3. 06:16 AM - Re: Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic (FLYaDIVE)
4. 06:18 AM - Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic (lucien)
5. 06:26 AM - Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic (Roger Lee)
6. 07:08 AM - Re: Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic (Richard Girard)
7. 07:41 AM - Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic (lucien)
8. 07:44 AM - Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic (Thom Riddle)
9. 10:15 AM - Re : Icing: 912S versus 912 (NEEL Jean Philippe)
10. 10:28 AM - Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic (Roger Lee)
11. 10:37 AM - Re: : Icing: 912S versus 912 (neveyre@aol.co.uk)
12. 12:16 PM - Re: Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic (bjones@dmv.com)
13. 12:35 PM - Re: Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic (Pete Christensen)
14. 05:51 PM - Is my hanger door just waiting for me to be complacent? (Roger Lee)
15. 06:14 PM - Re: Is my hanger door just waiting for me to be complacent? (Carlos Trigo)
16. 07:02 PM - Re: Is my hangar door just waiting for me to be complacent? (Roger Lee)
17. 07:34 PM - Re: Is my hangar door just waiting for me to be complacent? (Roger Lee)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic |
Roger,
Item 15:
I'm glad you left that one open for interpretation, because my partner and I don't
charge as much as most mechanics because our overhead is lower, we are both
retired and do mechanic work for others because we enjoy helping them and keeping
our hands in it. Plus my partner has to stay "actively engaged" to keep
his I/A current. We are part-timers and we like it that way so we have an actual
retirement life outside of work. If it stops being fun, I'll quit doing it.
We stay as busy as we want to with work most A&Ps around here won't touch... experimental
aircraft, but also do type certificated airplane maintenance and inspection.
We enjoy working on the Rotax and Jabiru engines because they are great
engines but largely misunderstood by many A&Ps.
I'm in it for the fun and enjoyment of it in my retirement.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323152#323152
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Icing: 912S versus 912 |
Excellent point Rob:
But I think you have taken it one step further than the Gaggle need to
disseminate.
Everything said is true but there is one ingredient missing....WATER.
No mater how great the isentropic action is ice will not form unless the
temperature drops to and below the freezing point of the liquid. The
freezing point of Gas is around -95 Deg F (-70 C) and water is +32 F (0 C).
So the isentropic action upon gas is not an issue. You did say it but I
do not know how well it was received. Ice forms from WATER. The
temperature in the carb drops due to a drop in temperature due to the
venturi action. Simply put: The speed of the mass of air going through the
carb is increased by the carb's venturi. This increase in speed reduces th
e
pressure in the air flow. The reduction in pressure lowers the temperature
.
Tests have shown that with an OAT of 70 F (+21.1 C) you can get ICE in the
carb.
Taking it one step further the question of: Where does the WATER come from
has to be addressed? It is present in the AIR and in small quantities in
the gas. Even if you sum the tank you will not see the water in the gas.
Water gets into gas through condensation and absorption. Anyone
using straight Ethanol Gas? If so then due to the Alcohol you have water,
as alcohol is Hygroscopic. <-- meaning it adsorbs water.
I recall some obscure FAA Reg. requiring that Carb Heat must raise the
temperature 100 Degrees F above ambient. I have NEVER heard of that
being enforced.
I would guarantee that there is not a single RV 6 that could reach that
temp.
Barry
On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Rob Housman <rob@hyperion-ef.com> wrote:
> The cooling (isentropic throttling) that makes carb icing happen is a
> function of the amount of fuel vaporized so with all other things being
> equal (same atmospheric conditions, engine manifold, carbs, RPM, etc.) yo
u
> can expect the somewhat greater fuel flow (more power requires more fuel)
to
> cause more cooling and hence a greater propensity to make ice. Obviously
> the 912 and 912S are =93different=94 engines but those differences are in
ternal
> and downstream from the carbs. The 914 is less prone to carb ice because
> the air compressed by the turbo is warmer than the intake air.
> Thermodynamics rules!
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> Rob Housman
>
> Irvine, California
>
> Europa XS
>
> S/N A070
>
> Rotax 914
>
> Airframe complete
>
> Avionics soon
>
>
> *From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *NEEL Jean
> Philippe
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 11, 2010 12:35 PM
> *To:* rotaxengines-list@matronics.com; europa-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RotaxEngines-List: Icing: 912S versus 912
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I flown my europa with a 912 80hp during 1200h/11years.It's a mark one bu
t
> with XS engine mounting and cowlings.Majority of flights took place here
in
> the French Alps as well in summer as in winter. I never had icing issue
> although I had no carb preheater .The only caution I had ,when
> descending ,was to keep 4500/4800 rpm . Never in idle position.
>
> In the beggining of that year I change my 912 for a new 912S 100hp. That
> new engine has now about 125h. Yesterday I had for the first time a rough
> running during few seconds.Outer Air Temp was negative at every level and
> the issue occurs at the end of a descent 4500/4800rpm from 8000ft to 1500
ft.
> There was about 8=B0C of difference at ground level betwen OAT and dew
> point.
>
> Several time I read on Rotax and Europa web site discussions about icing
> issues and I kept in mind that 912S should be more sensitive to icing tha
n
> 912.
>
>
> As I know:
>
> - Carbs are the same ,except needle diam (2.72 versus 2.70 on S) and
> ,may be, main fuel jet and diffuser (in accordance with needle) .Does
those
> difference could explain more sensitivity to icing?
> - Compression ratio and bore are increased on S but stroke is the
> same . In my opinion these difference have not thing to do with icing
issue.
>
> So here is my question : *Could some body explain why a 912S should be
> more exposed to icing than a 912?*
>
>
> Jean-Philippe Neel
>
> F-PSLH Kit N=B0273
>
> Grenoble France
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *www.aeroelectric.com*
>
> *www.buildersbooks.com*
>
> *www.homebuilthelp.com*
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
============*
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic |
Hey Thom:
Love the way you think.
There should also be a 15A.
I lost a job because I told the customer-to-be it would cost him $175 for
one hour of my time which included travel; to fix gas leak in a wing. The
guy that got the job charged him $2000 and the plane was down for about two
weeks.
Bottom line... I hope he got KISSED!
Barry
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 8:51 AM, Thom Riddle <riddletr@gmail.com> wrote:
m
> >
>
> Roger,
>
> Item 15:
> I'm glad you left that one open for interpretation, because my partner an
d
> I don't charge as much as most mechanics because our overhead is lower, w
e
> are both retired and do mechanic work for others because we enjoy helping
> them and keeping our hands in it. Plus my partner has to stay "actively
> engaged" to keep his I/A current. We are part-timers and we like it that
way
> so we have an actual retirement life outside of work. If it stops being f
un,
> I'll quit doing it.
>
> We stay as busy as we want to with work most A&Ps around here won't
> touch... experimental aircraft, but also do type certificated airplane
> maintenance and inspection. We enjoy working on the Rotax and Jabiru engi
nes
> because they are great engines but largely misunderstood by many A&Ps.
>
> I'm in it for the fun and enjoyment of it in my retirement.
>
> --------
> Thom Riddle
> Buffalo, NY (9G0)
> Kolb Slingshot SS-021
> Jabiru 2200A #1574
> Tennessee Prop 64x32
>
>
> =93Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.=94
> Daniel Patrick Moynihan
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323152#323152
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic |
Thom Riddle wrote:
> Roger,
>
> Item 15:
> I'm glad you left that one open for interpretation, because my partner and I
don't charge as much as most mechanics because our overhead is lower, we are both
retired and do mechanic work for others because we enjoy helping them and
keeping our hands in it. Plus my partner has to stay "actively engaged" to keep
his I/A current. We are part-timers and we like it that way so we have an actual
retirement life outside of work. If it stops being fun, I'll quit doing it.
>
> We stay as busy as we want to with work most A&Ps around here won't touch...
experimental aircraft, but also do type certificated airplane maintenance and
inspection. We enjoy working on the Rotax and Jabiru engines because they are
great engines but largely misunderstood by many A&Ps.
>
> I'm in it for the fun and enjoyment of it in my retirement.
Sure wish both you guys lived near me!
In fact, I'm drifting towards going to Rotax school myself at some point out of
simple desperation. Right now, if something goes wrong with my 912 that isn't
just simple line maintenance, I'm screwed. It'd have to come off the plane and
go to Miss. or FL or somewhere.
Back when I flew the 503 I was able to do a bit more invasive stuff because I have
the entire 2-stroke toolset (minus a couple specific to the 582) but on the
912 there isn't anyone anywhere near here that's qualified to actually work
on it.
Also, the toolset for the 912 is as much as an engine if you get the entire thing.
So that probably makes it even more unusual to find folks who can actually
do teardowns on a sick 912. But if I go to school, I'll probably get some of
the basic tools....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323163#323163
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| Subject: | Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic |
Hi Thom,
I'm like you, retired and like what I'm doing. Keeps me busy. I also instruct for
AZ Homeland Security in between plane maint. I know different parts of the
country charge different rates and different people have different overhead. I
don't have any overhead either so my rates are a little cheaper. That's why I
kind of left #15 on rates open, because there are variables. It was just something
to consider while your looking around. By far the other items are more important.
I should have added in my little blog that when you find a good mechanic that does
a good job for you and you get along with well, be nice to them, sometimes
they are hard to come by.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323165#323165
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| Subject: | Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic |
Of course the flip side of this is the guy who pencil whips an annual and
hurts everybody involved.
Case in point. Customer has his newly acquired aircraft delivered to me for
assembly and test flight following ground shipping. I had already pinpointed
7 things that needed to be fixed based on pictures the previous owner sent
to the buyer. Not big things. Stuff like wrong tubing used for pulse line
from engine to fuel pump, head vent line at low end of engine rather than
high end, those kind of little detail things. When plane arrives, we find
main spar carry through holes wobbled out so big I'll have to make bushings
to correct, drag spar fitting loose and rattling, covering worn through for
12" on wing root where gap cover overlaps, tail wires improperly swaged,
carburetor boots severely cracked, plane is overweight by almost 200 lb.
from empty weight listed in the logs, and those are just the obvious
problems. Since, according to the seller, the wings were off the plane at
the time and there is no time recorded on the Hobbs since the "inspection"
was performed it's hard to believe these items were missed.
Obviously the seller got what he wanted, a good conditional inspection to
aid in the sale, the A & P made a quick buck, the buyer gets the bill to
return the aircraft to safe condition, and I get some work after I deliver
the bad news. Of course the other obvious question is what would have
happened had the buyer just accepted delivery, set up and gone flying?
Scares me to think about it.
Rick Girard
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 8:23 AM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Thom,
>
> I'm like you, retired and like what I'm doing. Keeps me busy. I also
> instruct for AZ Homeland Security in between plane maint. I know different
> parts of the country charge different rates and different people have
> different overhead. I don't have any overhead either so my rates are a
> little cheaper. That's why I kind of left #15 on rates open, because there
> are variables. It was just something to consider while your looking around.
> By far the other items are more important.
>
> I should have added in my little blog that when you find a good mechanic
> that does a good job for you and you get along with well, be nice to them,
> sometimes they are hard to come by.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323165#323165
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic |
rickofudall wrote:
> Stuff like wrong tubing used for pulse line from engine to fuel pump
>
Heh, funny you mention the pulse line. This is such a simple part of a 2-stroke
installation that's just amazingly misunderstood.
My last exchange over on the Kolb list before leaving was a fight over the pulse
line length, it was amazing how aggressive the attacks were when I insisted
it needed to be a foot and half long at a minimum (the Rotax spec is 20" at the
longest, but that's a maximum value that you don't really want to use for a
truly safe installation). I finally had to leave the list because I was even getting
PM's about ruffling the feathers of one of the "gurus" on the list.
But this is actually the single most neglected and violated safety issue with the
2-strokes. I've seen installations with this line over 2' long, and that was
specified by the factory in one case! The owner of that particular plane was
constantly having fuel starvation issues, very dangerous.
It's often thought that as long as line is made of the right material, the pulse
line can be as long as you please. But the limiting factor is the compliance
of the air column in the line, not the stiffness of the lines themselves. So
even if it's solid steel brake line, you don't want to run more than about 1.5
feet on this line.
But I'm still stunned by how hard people fight back on this and still want to run
these mile-long pulse lines. It's almost as if they want a safety issue on
the plane just because the pump looks so pretty bolted onto a firewall a mile
away from the motor ;).
So that's another thing that can really frustrate you when helping someone out
with their installation, etc. - they'll sometimes really fight you on it....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323173#323173
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| Subject: | Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic |
Rick,
I experienced something similar about four years ago. A customer bought a Challenger
from Minnesota without looking at it, because the owner had a recent annual
condition inspection and told the buyer he had been flying regularly, at least
weekly, for the past year. When it arrived by truck, from a distance it looked
good, i.e., the fabric and paint were nice and no obvious corrosion etc.
Fortunately, it was structurally sound but had dozens of little things that revealed
what a blatant lier the seller was. Tires were flat, the fuel in the tank
was the color of molasses, the battery was beyond servicing, etc. The logbook
condition inspection entry was obviously done without actually inspecting anything
and the time in service since the previous one, well over a year earlier,
was about 4 hours. It cost our customer nearly a $1,000 to get it to the point
where it was safe and able to fly. He was lucky because it could have been
much worse.
I don't even know if the guy who signed the condition inspection was a real person
with a valid mechanic certificate number, but if he was, he should have his
ticket yanked.
Caveat Emptor
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323174#323174
Message 9
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| Subject: | Icing: 912S versus 912 |
Rob and Barry, =0AMany thanks=C2-for your answers.=0AI well know the proc
ess that lead a carb to icing. It's usefull to remember that =0Awater can b
e provided by air and by gas itself and the alcohol effect.=0AI also know t
hat if I=C2-worry about icing , there are a lot of solutions to =0Apreven
t from: hot water circulation on the carb body, hot air admission=C2-.=0A
In fact my question was :=C2- Could some body explain why a Rotax=C2-91
2S should be =0Amore exposed to icing than a 912?=0A=C2-=0A=0AJean-Philip
pe Neel=0AF-PSLH Kit N=C2=B0273=0AGrenoble France=0A=0A=0A=0A______________
__________________=0ADe : FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>=0A=C3 : rotaxeng
ines-list@matronics.com=0AEnvoy=C3=A9 le : Lun 13 d=C3=A9cembre 2010, 15h 0
6min 44s=0AObjet=C2-: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Icing: 912S versus 912=0A=0A
Excellent=C2-point Rob: =0A=0ABut I think you have taken it one step furt
her than the Gaggle need to =0Adisseminate.=0AEverything=C2-said is true
but there is one ingredient missing....WATER.=0ANo mater how great the isen
tropic action is ice will not form unless the =0Atemperature drops to and b
elow the freezing point of the liquid. =C2-The freezing =0Apoint of Gas i
s around -95 Deg F (-70 C) and water is +32 F (0 C). =C2-So the =0Aisentr
opic action upon gas is not an issue. =C2- You did say it but I do not kn
ow =0Ahow well it was received.=C2-=C2-Ice forms from WATER. =C2-The
temperature in the carb =0Adrops due to a drop in temperature due to the ve
nturi action. =C2-Simply put: The =0Aspeed of the mass of air going throu
gh the carb is increased by the carb's =0Aventuri. =C2-This increase in s
peed reduces the pressure in the air flow. =C2-The =0Areduction in pressu
re lowers the temperature. =C2-Tests have shown that with an OAT =0Aof 70
F (+21.1 C) you can get ICE in the carb.=0ATaking it one step further the
question of: Where does the WATER come from has =0Ato be addressed? =C2-I
t is present in the AIR and in small quantities in the gas. =0A=C2-Even i
f you sum the tank you will not see the water in the gas. =C2-Water gets
=0Ainto gas through condensation and=C2-absorption. =C2-Anyone =0Ausing
=C2-straight=C2-Ethanol=C2-Gas? =C2-If so then due to the Alcohol y
ou have water, as =0Aalcohol is=C2-Hygroscopic. =C2-<-- meaning it=C2
-adsorbs=C2-water.=0A=0A=0AI recall some obscure FAA Reg. requiring tha
t Carb Heat must raise the =0Atemperature 100 Degrees F above ambient. =C2
-I have NEVER heard of that =0Abeing=C2-enforced.=0AI would=C2-guaran
tee=C2-that there is not a single RV 6 that could reach that temp.=0A=0AB
arry=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Rob Housman <rob@hyperi
on-ef.com> wrote:=0A=0AThe cooling (isentropic throttling) that makes carb
icing happen is a function =0Aof the amount of fuel vaporized so with all o
ther things being equal (same =0Aatmospheric conditions, engine manifold, c
arbs, RPM, etc.) you can expect the =0Asomewhat greater fuel flow (more pow
er requires more fuel) to cause more cooling =0Aand hence a greater propens
ity to make ice.=C2- Obviously the 912 and 912S are =0A=9Cdifferent
=9D engines but those differences are internal and downstream from th
e =0Acarbs.=C2- The 914 is less prone to carb ice because the air compres
sed by the =0Aturbo is warmer than the intake air.=C2- Thermodynamics rul
es!=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>Best regards,=0A>=C2-=0A>Rob Housman=0A>Irvine
, California=0A>Europa XS =0A>S/N A070=0A>Rotax 914=0A>Airframe complete=0A
>Avionics soon=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>From:owner-rotaxengines-lis
t-server@matronics.com =0A>[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics
.com] On Behalf Of NEEL Jean =0A>Philippe=0A>Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2
010 12:35 PM=0A>To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com; europa-list@matronics.
com=0A>Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Icing: 912S versus 912=0A>=C2-=0A>Hi a
ll,=0A>I flown my europa with a 912 80hp during 1200h/11years.It's a mark o
ne but with =0A>XS engine mounting and cowlings.Majority of flights took pl
ace here in the =0A>French Alps as well in =C2-summer as in winter. I nev
er had icing=C2-issue although I =0A>had no carb preheater=C2-.The only
caution I had ,when descending=C2-,was to keep =0A>4500/4800 rpm .=C2-
Never in idle position.=0A>In the beggining of that year I change=C2-my
=C2-912=C2-for a new 912S 100hp. That new =0A>engine has now about 125h
. Yesterday I had for the first time a rough running =0A>during few seconds
.Outer Air Temp was negative at every level and the issue =0A>occurs at the
end of a descent 4500/4800rpm from 8000ft to 1500ft. There was =0A>about
=C2- 8=C2=B0C=C2- of difference at ground level betwen OAT and dew poin
t.=0A>Several time I read on Rotax and Europa web site discussions about ic
ing issues =0A>and I=C2-kept in mind that 912S should be more sensitive t
o icing than 912.=0A>=C2-=0A>As=C2-I know:=0A>* =C2-Carbs are the
same ,except needle diam (2.72 versus 2.70 on S)=C2-and ,may be, =0A>main
fuel jet=C2-and diffuser (in accordance with needle)=C2-.Does those di
fference =0A>could explain more=C2-sensitivity to icing?=0A>* Compress
ion ratio and bore=C2-are increased on S=C2-=C2-but stroke is the sam
e=C2-. In my =0A>opinion these difference have not thing to do with icing
issue.=0A>=C2-So here is my question=C2-:=C2-Could some body explain
why a 912S should be more =0A>exposed to icing than a 912?=0A>=C2-=0A>Je
an-Philippe Neel=0A>F-PSLH Kit N=C2=B0273=0A>Grenoble France=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>www.aeroelectric.com=0A>ww
w.buildersbooks.com=0A>www.homebuilthelp.com=0A>http://www.matronics.com/co
ntribution=0A>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List=0A>http:
//forums.matronics.com=0A> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com .com" target="_b
lank">www.buildersbooks.com =0A>="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com _blank">h
ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A>ist" target="_blank">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List =0A>tp://forums.matronics.com =0A
============ =0A=0A=0A=0A
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic |
Hi Guys,
You guys just showed me and everyone that wants to get away too cheap or has little
to no knowledge about their plane for standards on proper maint. or a proper
inspections. Some have someone do the maint. or inspection that really doesn't
have a clue, but has A&P or LSRM-A after his name. It really behoofs people
to seek out someone that has some knowledge and education to help do the maint.
It can and does save you money and horror stories later. May even save your
life.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323193#323193
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Icing: 912S versus 912 |
Hi Jean-Philippe,
Does the 912S have the cooling shroud over the cylinders, and perhaps the
912 did not ?
Cheers,
Nev.
-----Original Message-----
From: NEEL Jean Philippe <jeanphilippeneel@yahoo.fr>
Sent: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 18:13
Subject: Re : RotaxEngines-List: Icing: 912S versus 912
Rob and Barry,
Many thanks for your answers.
I well know the process that lead a carb to icing. It's usefull to remembe
r that water can be provided by air and by gas itself and the alcohol effe
ct.
I also know that if I worry about icing , there are a lot of solutions to
prevent from: hot water circulation on the carb body, hot air admission
.
In fact my question was : Could some body explain why a Rotax 912S should
be more exposed to icing than a 912?
Jean-Philippe Neel
F-PSLH Kit N=C2=B0273
Grenoble France
De : FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>
=C3 : rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
Envoy=C3=A9 le : Lun 13 d=C3=A9cembre 2010, 15h 06min 44s
Objet : Re: RotaxEngines-List: Icing: 912S versus 912
Excellent point Rob:
But I think you have taken it one step further than the Gaggle need to dis
seminate.
Everything said is true but there is one ingredient missing....WATER.
No mater how great the isentropic action is ice will not form unless the
temperature drops to and below the freezing point of the liquid. The fre
ezing point of Gas is around -95 Deg F (-70 C) and water is +32 F (0 C).
So the isentropic action upon gas is not an issue. You did say it but
I do not know how well it was received. Ice forms from WATER. The tempe
rature in the carb drops due to a drop in temperature due to the venturi
action. Simply put: The speed of the mass of air going through the carb
is increased by the carb's venturi. This increase in speed reduces the
pressure in the air flow. The reduction in pressure lowers the temperatu
re. Tests have shown that with an OAT of 70 F (+21.1 C) you can get ICE
in the carb.
Taking it one step further the question of: Where does the WATER come from
has to be addressed? It is present in the AIR and in small quantities in
the gas. Even if you sum the tank you will not see the water in the gas.
Water gets into gas through condensation and absorption. Anyone using
straight Ethanol Gas? If so then due to the Alcohol you have water, as
alcohol is Hygroscopic. <-- meaning it adsorbs water.
I recall some obscure FAA Reg. requiring that Carb Heat must raise the tem
perature 100 Degrees F above ambient. I have NEVER heard of that being en
forced.
I would guarantee that there is not a single RV 6 that could reach that te
mp.
Barry
On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Rob Housman <rob@hyperion-ef.com> wrote:
The cooling (isentropic throttling) that makes carb icing happen is a func
tion of the amount of fuel vaporized so with all other things being equal
(same atmospheric conditions, engine manifold, carbs, RPM, etc.) you can
expect the somewhat greater fuel flow (more power requires more fuel) to
cause more cooling and hence a greater propensity to make ice. Obviously
the 912 and 912S are =9Cdifferent=9D engines but those differ
ences are internal and downstream from the carbs. The 914 is less prone
to carb ice because the air compressed by the turbo is warmer than the in
take air. Thermodynamics rules!
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, California
Europa XS
S/N A070
Rotax 914
Airframe complete
Avionics soon
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengi
nes-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of NEEL Jean Philippe
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 12:35 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Icing: 912S versus 912
Hi all,
I flown my europa with a 912 80hp during 1200h/11years.It's a mark one but
with XS engine mounting and cowlings.Majority of flights took place here
in the French Alps as well in summer as in winter. I never had icing iss
ue although I had no carb preheater .The only caution I had ,when descendi
ng ,was to keep 4500/4800 rpm . Never in idle position.
In the beggining of that year I change my 912 for a new 912S 100hp. That
new engine has now about 125h. Yesterday I had for the first time a rough
running during few seconds.Outer Air Temp was negative at every level and
the issue occurs at the end of a descent 4500/4800rpm from 8000ft to 1500
ft. There was about 8=C2=B0C of difference at ground level betwen OAT an
d dew point.
Several time I read on Rotax and Europa web site discussions about icing
issues and I kept in mind that 912S should be more sensitive to icing tha
n 912.
As I know:
Carbs are the same ,except needle diam (2.72 versus 2.70 on S) and ,may
be, main fuel jet and diffuser (in accordance with needle) .Does those di
fference could explain more sensitivity to icing?
Compression ratio and bore are increased on S but stroke is the same . In
my opinion these difference have not thing to do with icing issue.
So here is my question : Could some body explain why a 912S should be mor
e exposed to icing than a 912?
Jean-Philippe Neel
F-PSLH Kit N=C2=B0273
Grenoble France
www.aeroelectric.com
www.buildersbooks.com
www.homebuilthelp.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic |
Having had ownership in over two dozen planes over quite a few years now,
I have to agree that finding the right maintainence shop(s) or person(s)
with knowlege, experience, training, skills, and ethics to do the
maintainence or provde the assistance needed can be a pocketbook and life
saver.
BJ
Kitfox IV N154K
PA 39 Turbo N626NR
>
> Hi Guys,
>
> You guys just showed me and everyone that wants to get away too cheap or
> has little to no knowledge about their plane for standards on proper
> maint. or a proper inspections. Some have someone do the maint. or
> inspection that really doesn't have a clue, but has A&P or LSRM-A after
> his name. It really behoofs people to seek out someone that has some
> knowledge and education to help do the maint. It can and does save you
> money and horror stories later. May even save your life.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323193#323193
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: What to look for in a good Mechanic |
This one looks good. Saw her on Barnstormers.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Is my hanger door just waiting for me to be complacent? |
Hi All,
Is my hanger door just waiting for me to be complacent? (Yes it is!)
Another recent incident has prompted me to throw this out for review.
Just wanted to touch bases with everyone concerning our hanger doors. Over the
last couple of years too many people have shut their hanger doors on their plane.
Usually the tail and a few wings. That means we are leaving our planes way
too close to the door edge whether it be on the inside, but usually these incidents
happen when the plane is on the outside of the door.
When I was on the Fire Department there were many door accidents as the truck would
pull out. You can imagine what something the size of a fire truck can do
to a large garage type door. The cost to the department was hundreds of thousands
of dollars.
So a policy was written. The door is either on 12" off the ground and open for
air movement or it was all the way open. Nothing in between. The truck was either
all the way in the apparatus bay or it was all the way out. No one was allowed
to touch the close button until the truck was way out of the station or parked
inside. Failure to follow these rules led to a one day suspension and damage
to another door or vehicle was much longer.
The point of this is to make everyone take notice that their plane should never
be parked half way in or out of the hanger or very close to any door. If it is
an electric hanger door it has a certain amount of angle that it protrudes as
it opens.
These hanger accidents has cost many thousands of dollars and I hope this little
article helps someone from having this type of accident again. Even if the insurance
pays for this incident the repair work and logistics is a royal pain.
If I have to have something that crosses the door threshold then I trip the electrical
breakers so there is no power to the door and it can't move.
Don't get suspended keep your attention focused and your plane at a safe distance
from the hanger door. [Wink]
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323237#323237
Message 15
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| Subject: | Is my hanger door just waiting for me to be complacent? |
Roger
I do love your posts, and I always learn something with them, but
forgive me
if I have to make a correction to this last one:
- =93hanger=94 is where one can hang something
- =93hangar=94 is where we can put our airplanes in
Carlos
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-
> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
> Sent: ter=E7a-feira, 14 de Dezembro de 2010 1:47
> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Is my hanger door just waiting for me to
be
> complacent?
>
<ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi All,
>
> Is my hanger door just waiting for me to be complacent? (Yes it is!)
>
> Another recent incident has prompted me to throw this out for review.
>
> Just wanted to touch bases with everyone concerning our hanger doors.
Over
the
> last couple of years too many people have shut their hanger doors on
their
plane.
> Usually the tail and a few wings. That means we are leaving our planes
way
too
> close to the door edge whether it be on the inside, but usually these
incidents
> happen when the plane is on the outside of the door.
> When I was on the Fire Department there were many door accidents as
the
truck
> would pull out. You can imagine what something the size of a fire
truck
can do to a
> large garage type door. The cost to the department was hundreds of
thousands of
> dollars.
> So a policy was written. The door is either on 12" off the ground and
open
for air
> movement or it was all the way open. Nothing in between. The truck was
either all
> the way in the apparatus bay or it was all the way out. No one was
allowed
to touch
> the close button until the truck was way out of the station or parked
inside. Failure
> to follow these rules led to a one day suspension and damage to
another
door or
> vehicle was much longer.
> The point of this is to make everyone take notice that their plane
should
never be
> parked half way in or out of the hanger or very close to any door. If
it
is an electric
> hanger door it has a certain amount of angle that it protrudes as it
opens.
> These hanger accidents has cost many thousands of dollars and I hope
this
little
> article helps someone from having this type of accident again. Even if
the
insurance
> pays for this incident the repair work and logistics is a royal pain.
> If I have to have something that crosses the door threshold then I
trip
the electrical
> breakers so there is no power to the door and it can't move.
>
>
> Don't get suspended keep your attention focused and your plane at a
safe
distance
> from the hanger door. [Wink]
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323237#323237
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Is my hangar door just waiting for me to be complacent? |
Nothing like having you mother look over your should at 57 years old. [Laughing]
[Laughing] [Laughing] [Laughing]
It's fixed
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323243#323243
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Is my hangar door just waiting for me to be complacent? |
Roger Lee wrote:
> Nothing like having your mother look over your shoulder at 57 years old. [Laughing]
[Laughing] [Laughing] [Laughing]
>
>
> It's fixed
>
> Thanks for watching out for me.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323245#323245
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