Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:47 AM - AOA stall warn etc. (DEAN PSIROPOULOS)
2. 02:53 AM - Re: O-320 Oil Temps (Johnny Johnson)
3. 03:46 AM - Control Cables (Ron Schreck)
4. 05:24 AM - Re: Stall Training (linn walters)
5. 05:39 AM - Re: AOA stall warn etc. (linn walters)
6. 06:50 AM - Re: Re: O-320 Oil Temps (Scott Bilinski)
7. 07:19 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Sam Buchanan)
8. 07:58 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Mickey Coggins)
9. 08:15 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Kyle Boatright)
10. 08:17 AM - master relay failure (Knicholas2@aol.com)
11. 08:42 AM - Roll Your Own AOA (Warren Hurd)
12. 08:43 AM - Re: AOA clamav-milter version 0.80j on zoot.lafn.org (Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club)
13. 08:43 AM - Re: Prop cable (Jim Streit)
14. 09:12 AM - Re: Control Cables (Dan Checkoway)
15. 09:40 AM - Re: AOA - when going straight up (HAL KEMPTHORNE)
16. 09:44 AM - Most important stall practice (long); not builder related (Kosta Lewis)
17. 09:46 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (rv6tc)
18. 10:07 AM - The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Glen Matejcek)
19. 10:20 AM - Re: AOA - when going straight up (Scott VanArtsdalen)
20. 10:35 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (steve zicree)
21. 10:45 AM - Re: AOA - when going straight up (Charlie England)
22. 10:46 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Mickey Coggins)
23. 11:10 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (steve zicree)
24. 11:12 AM - Re: AOA - when going straight up (Tom Gummo)
25. 11:17 AM - Re: Stall Training (Glen Matejcek)
26. 11:27 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Edward Cole)
27. 11:30 AM - Re: Stall Training (Ed Bundy)
28. 11:33 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Mickey Coggins)
29. 11:52 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Larry Bowen)
30. 11:52 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (steve zicree)
31. 12:20 PM - AOA, Warning horn (Wheeler North)
32. 12:35 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Larry Bowen)
33. 12:39 PM - Re: planes are fun (Larry Bowen)
34. 12:40 PM - Re: AOA, Warning horn (steve zicree)
35. 12:55 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Bill Schlatterer)
36. 02:17 PM - Re: master relay failure (Doug Gray)
37. 03:00 PM - Re: AOA - when going straight up (Scott VanArtsdalen)
38. 03:00 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Kevin Horton)
39. 03:04 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Scott VanArtsdalen)
40. 03:19 PM - new guys questions (D. Wayne Stiles)
41. 03:28 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (linn walters)
42. 04:41 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Kathleen@rv7.us)
43. 04:49 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Scott VanArtsdalen)
44. 04:51 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Scott VanArtsdalen)
45. 04:51 PM - prop flange oil leak (Brian Kraut)
46. 05:04 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (linn walters)
47. 05:08 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (steve zicree)
48. 05:12 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Scott VanArtsdalen)
49. 05:15 PM - Re: prop flange oil leak (linn walters)
50. 05:15 PM - Re: hand held radio (William Davis)
51. 06:32 PM - Canopy latch (steve zicree)
52. 06:47 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Jerry Springer)
53. 07:27 PM - Re: new guys questions (Chris W)
54. 07:45 PM - Re: new guys questions (plaurence@the-beach.net)
55. 07:50 PM - Re: Canopy latch (plaurence@the-beach.net)
56. 08:05 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (steve zicree)
57. 08:12 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
58. 08:31 PM - Re: Canopy latch (steve zicree)
59. 08:50 PM - Re: planes are fun (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
60. 08:59 PM - Miscellaneous stuff for donation (Don Mack)
61. 09:20 PM - Re: planes are fun (steve zicree)
62. 09:51 PM - Re: planes are fun (Sam Buchanan)
63. 10:06 PM - Re: Miscellaneous stuff for donation (Scott VanArtsdalen)
64. 10:19 PM - Re: planes are fun (Scott VanArtsdalen)
65. 10:25 PM - Re: planes are fun (Jerry Springer)
66. 10:25 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Scott VanArtsdalen)
67. 11:35 PM - Re: planes are fun (steve zicree)
68. 11:38 PM - Re: planes are fun (steve zicree)
69. 11:55 PM - Re: planes are fun (Scott Jackson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | AOA stall warn etc. |
--> RV-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
Many thanks to all you experienced folks for your general words of wisdom and especially
those who were specific about yanking and banking the RV, I learned
a few things about my aicraft these past few days that I will try to keep in mind
when I fly it. When my airplane is ready to go and I've had my transition
training I will revisit these comments for a "pre-flight breifing" from y'all
to help keep me thinking about the capabilities and limitations of the airplane
in that portion of the envelope. The RV obviously does NOT need an AOA for
takeoff, landing or cruise flight. I know that the design is very robust and
as safe as most any production aircraft out there. Dick VanG has been flying
them for the last 35 years without AOA and is the ultimate testimate to that
fact. However, as a person who performs safety and failure analysis for a living,
I am very risk aware and somewhat risk averse (no, not risk averse enough
to avoid flying airplanes, it's too much fun). As such I am always looking for
ways to "design out" or "control" the hazards. AOA cannot eliminate the hazard
of the stall spin accident but it can help to maintain "control" over it by
informing my brain that I have something serious that needs my attention, NOW!
So why do people still perish, even with these things blaring in their ears? I
suspect that it is, at least in part, caused by the pilot being so overloaded
that he can't handle one more distraction. Many years ago, the investigation
of a serious Nuclear power plant accident (not Three Mile Island), and some other
studies about why mishaps occur, uncovered an interesting phenomenon. The
phenomenon the researchers discovered is:....that the average human being can
cope with up to 7 distractions (all at once) before the brain begins to "melt
down". People who process information serially probably can't deal with that
many distractions at once. So yes, in a serious emergency it is not only possible
that the horn could be blaring and you'd completly miss hearing it, but
also probable. Could it happen to me too? You bet, but the technology is there
so why not use every means at my disposal to help me live to fly another day?
I understand the seat-of-the-pants arguments and I agree. After flying several
hundred hours in the venerable C-172 I have a pretty good feel for whether
they are going to keep flying or fall out of the sky, just by seat-of---MY----pants.
But after listening to a rather infamous RV driver talk about yanking
and banking in the pattern to bleed off airspeed, experiencing that very thing
with a friend in his RV-6A and then having two friends perish in a stall spin.....started
me thinking. And given that I have been in the pattern at HIO
more than once (with many other airplanes) and the tower wanting me to perform
some wierd shenanigans (right on short final).....I've gotten distracted, plain
and simple. Fortunately familiarity with the airplane (and proficiency) probably
kept me out of trouble but...it's nice to have that little extra something
jabbing you in the ribs saying:"hey dummy-don't forget to fly the airplane
first". Just MHO:-)
Dean Psiropoulos
N197DM making progress to flight.
Message 2
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| Subject: | RE: O-320 Oil Temps |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Johnny Johnson" <Johnny@wiktel.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott
Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com
<mailto:bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com?subject=RE:%20O-320%20oil%20temps&repl
yto=200411121631.iACGVM321788@matronics.com> >
I would think this should be moved over to
the Lycoming list to get the answer?
Good idea. Where is the Lycoming List? I don't see one in Matt's lineup.
For reference: the question was do we need an oil cooler on the O-320 since
most of them, in RVs anyhow, seem to run well under 200.
Thanks,
Johnny Johnson
49MM RV-3A O-320 160
Do not archive
Message 3
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Ron Schreck" <ronschreck@webkorner.com>
I'm looking for a few good pictures of cable routing and cable bracket construction
for my application. I have an Airflow Performance Fuel control on a
forward facing sump on my IO360 RV-8. I am planning on coming straight back under
the sump with the throttle and mixture, useing the threaded boss under the
sump to attach a bracket. I plan on useing the A-1550 cables from ACS with
bulkhead fittings at each end. Are these the right cables? I understand that
the standard cable lengths are measured from tip to tip on these quadrant cables
(is that right) but how much do I need to allow to put a clevis fitting and
a rod end bearing on the threaded ends? Is this the usual setup? Pictures would
help a lot! Thanks.
Ron Schreck
ronschreck@webkorner.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Stall Training |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
OK, now that you (the collective you) are enjoying spins and they're 'no
big deal', put some aileron into the spin once it fully develops
....... and then move the stick forward ....... and then try and recover
on a heading.
Linn .... loves the wild ride
do not archive
DejaVu wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "DejaVu" <wvu@mail.ameritel.net>
>
>I'm fortunate enough to have spun in a variety of aircraft along with a
>variety of very capable pilots. Spins can be a lot of fun once you get over
>the initial pucker factor. Afterall most aircraft behave like a falling
>leaf - vice diving for the earth. Inverted spins would most definitely
>surprise you if you're not familiar with the behaviors beforehand. Make
>sure you're briefed on the spin characteristics of a particular aircraft and
>rehearse it in your mind well to minimize the surprise factor.
>
>When you tuck the stick of a P-51D, for example, against your lap belt and
>kick left rudder at the right moment, guess what, it snaps right - every
>time (that's goodness). One other aircraft that I can think of right now
>would spin 1/4 turn and accelerate the spin rate quickly for the another 1/2
>turn while pitching up at the same time. Then it slows down and pitch down
>for the remaining 1/4 turn and the cycle repeats itself. Try to recover
>from a spin to a particular heading. That can be a lot of fun, especially
>when the spin does not stop for 3/4 turn or 11/2 turn once you initiate the
>recovery.
>
>Spins keep you in tune with the aircraft and your situational awareness
>alive of what's happening around you.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Training
>
>
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>I asked my CFI during intitial training about spins- we climbed to 6K
>>>
>>>
>and
>
>
>>he
>>
>>
>>>demonstrated. First time was a HUGE eye opener, never having been
>>>dirty-side-up before,
>>>
>>>Mark Phillips
>>>
>>>
>>==================================
>>
>>Dirty side up????
>>
>>Are you sure?
>>
>>
>>Bob
>>
>>Do not archive
>>
>>
>>---
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>---
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: AOA stall warn etc. |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
DEAN PSIROPOULOS wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
>
SNIP
>So why do people still perish, even with these things blaring in their ears?
I suspect that it is, at least in part, caused by the pilot being so overloaded
that he can't handle one more distraction.
>
Very, Very true. That and our brain that tries to ignore things so we
can focus on something else. We hear what we want to hear from the
tower, for example, and miss the part of 90 degree crosswinds etc.
because we're concentrating on following another aircraft down the
taxiway .... it's usually the pilot's fault (but not always) when things
go sour ...... because, I guess we get complacent after doing this
flying thing over and over. Better analysts then me have pondered your
same question and have yet to hit the answer spot on ..... because what
we do is really complicated and distractions abound. I'm amazed at the
number of folks every year that run out of gas in their airplane ......
how stupid can you get ...... but the truly stupid never make it through
the training process. Lapse of judgement or something else on their
mind, I guess. I've lost friends in aircraft accidents .... and every
one of them was doing something they shouldn't have been doing ......
which is why we have those FARs that guide us to a long and satisfying
(albeit sometimes frustrating) flying career.
Linn
> Many years ago, the investigation of a serious Nuclear power plant accident
(not Three Mile Island), and some other studies about why mishaps occur, uncovered
an interesting phenomenon. The phenomenon the researchers discovered is:....that
the average human being can cope with up to 7 distractions (all at once)
before the brain begins to "melt down". People who process information serially
probably can't deal with that many distractions at once. So yes, in a serious
emergency it is not only possible that the horn could be blaring and you'd
completly miss hearing it, but also probable.
>
Hee's a Dr. story ....... He owned a Mooney Mite and landed gear up
..... twice ...... and he told me he was aggravated at this little red
disc that was waving in his face while on final ...... well, that little
red disc is mounted on an arm connected to a windshield wiper motor
...... and is there to let you know that your gear isn't down and your
throttle is way back!!!!
> Could it happen to me too? You bet, but the technology is there so why not
use every means at my disposal to help me live to fly another day? I understand
the seat-of-the-pants arguments and I agree. After flying several hundred
hours in the venerable C-172 I have a pretty good feel for whether they are going
to keep flying or fall out of the sky, just by seat-of---MY----pants. But
after listening to a rather infamous RV driver talk about yanking and banking
in the pattern to bleed off airspeed, experiencing that very thing with a friend
in his RV-6A and then having two friends perish in a stall spin.....started
me thinking.
>
This is a good trait. Learn from others as you don't have time to make
all the mistakes yourself .... and survive.
> And given that I have been in the pattern at HIO more than once (with many other
airplanes) and the tower wanting me to perform some wierd shenanigans (right
on short final).....I've gotten distracted, plain and simple. Fortunately
familiarity with the airplane (and proficiency) probably kept me out of trouble
but...it's nice to have that little extra something jabbing you in the ribs
saying:"hey dummy-don't forget to fly the airplane first".
>
This should be the #1 flying commandment ..... fly the airplane ..... #2
is "see #1".
Be safe out there (with whatever gadget you like to get help from!).
Linn ..... so far survived all his stupid mistakes
do not archive
> Just MHO:-)
>Dean Psiropoulos
>
>N197DM making progress to flight.
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: RE: O-320 Oil Temps |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
lycoming@yahoogroups.com
At 04:52 AM 11/13/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Johnny Johnson" <Johnny@wiktel.com>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott
>Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com
><mailto:bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com?subject=RE:%20O-320%20oil%20temps&repl
>yto=200411121631.iACGVM321788@matronics.com> >
>
> I would think this should be moved over to
>the Lycoming list to get the answer?
>
>
>Good idea. Where is the Lycoming List? I don't see one in Matt's lineup.
>
>For reference: the question was do we need an oil cooler on the O-320 since
>most of them, in RVs anyhow, seem to run well under 200.
>
>Thanks,
>Johnny Johnson
>49MM RV-3A O-320 160
>
>Do not archive
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
steve zicree wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
> I remember well, and sadly have to agree. The circumstances that would
> require and allow a succesful egress and chute deployment are very, very
> narrow indeed. However, if things do come to it, it may be the ONLY way to
> survive and therefore deserves thoughtful consideration.
>
> The tone of many of the more experienced gents on here brings to mind
> another highly experienced master of machinery who didn't take the claims of
> safety equipment advocates seriously and paid: Dale Earnhardt.
>
> When I started flying only 4 short years ago, every old timer I met said
> that GPS was crap and would never take the place of the trusty VOR! New
> ideas are GOOD! Investigation is GOOD! Open-minded humility is GOOD.
Steve, I must speak up for the old, experienced coots on this list that
may have sounded like they were expressing less than "Open-minded humility".
You must keep in mind that the question of whether or not it is possible
to jettison the tip-up canopy on the RV-6 has been hotly debated by
RVer's for the nearly twenty years that the RV-6 has been in production.
This is an old argument that has been hashed multiple times on this list
and in countless hangar-flyin' sessions.
What the "experienced gents" expressed was probably more of an
eye-rolling impatience at having to revisit this issue *another* time
rather than lack of humility. My comment of "prove me wrong" was a
recognition that we all base our opinions on this subject purely on
speculation since to our knowledge, nobody has ever jumped from a flying
tip-up canopy RV-6. There have been instances of RV-4's losing the
canopy, and there is the tragic Alexander RV-8 accident, but no known
instances of that happening with an RV-6.
As one who has personal experience with how difficult it can be to
handle an open canopy in flight, it is my contention that wearing a
parachute in a tip-up RV-6, 7, 9 is an exercise in futility. However,
the ONLY way to prove otherwise is for somebody to actually jettison the
canopy and successfully jump! Until that happens, all we can do is
speculate on the odds of being able to actually egress from a flying
tip-up RV. And that experiment will only prove the validity of that
particular flight scenario.
Having said this, I suspect a new builder will raise this question again
in a couple of years, and it may be that you will be one of the "RV
veterans" who will roll their eyes and say "not again....." and urge the
newbie to read the scores of messages in the archives on this subject.
Sometimes a perceived lack of humility is merely a reluctance to revisit
a subject that still has no concrete answer and has been beat to death
in the past.
Best wishes on a successful and expeditious conclusion to your project,
Sam Buchanan
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>Having said this, I suspect a new builder will raise this question again
> in a couple of years, and it may be that you will be one of the "RV
>veterans" who will roll their eyes and say "not again....." and urge the
>newbie to read the scores of messages in the archives on this subject.
I'm not volunteering to do this, but back in the "good ol' days"
of the internet, a list like this would have a FAQ - not just info
about how to use the list, but all these types of Frequently
Asked-hashed-out-and-beat-to-death Questions. If someone would
put one of these together, then whenever a Q like this come up
we can all shout in unison "Read the FAQ!". You could put in
tailwheel/nosewheel discussion, primers, ...
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" <kboatright1@comcast.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mickey Coggins" <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> --> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
>
>>Having said this, I suspect a new builder will raise this question again
>> in a couple of years, and it may be that you will be one of the "RV
>>veterans" who will roll their eyes and say "not again....." and urge the
>>newbie to read the scores of messages in the archives on this subject.
>
> I'm not volunteering to do this, but back in the "good ol' days"
> of the internet, a list like this would have a FAQ - not just info
> about how to use the list, but all these types of Frequently
> Asked-hashed-out-and-beat-to-death Questions. If someone would
> put one of these together, then whenever a Q like this come up
> we can all shout in unison "Read the FAQ!". You could put in
> tailwheel/nosewheel discussion, primers, ...
>
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
Instead of a FAQ, we have the archives. Answers to 95% or more of anyone's
RV related questions are in there. The biggest problem with the archives is
that unless you have a long history on the RV-List, you probably don't have
a good idea of whose thoughts usually have value and whose thoughts
generally don't. Folks who have not been here for 5-10 years probably don't
recognize names like Bill Benedict, Mark Friedricks, Scott McDaniels, or Bob
Skinner, who each posted gems that are saved in the archives.
Of course, the answers to FAQ's have the same problem. Which FAQ has the
*right* (or right enough) answers. What if a list nutcase (and there have
been a couple over the years) created a website with an FAQ? The newbie
might go down a bunch of wrong paths before realizing the error of his
ways...
KB
Do not archive..
Message 10
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| Subject: | master relay failure |
--> RV-List message posted by: Knicholas2@aol.com
I pulled my RV9 out of the hangar yesterday to enjoy an unusaully nice
Seattle, fall day, I hit the master switch - NOTHING. I took to cowl off and
determined that the master relay was "sticking". The relay was one of teh
first accessories I installed during construction and probably has 1000+ cycles
on it. But it is common for such a "simple" relay to stick and fail? I could
not find a comparable relay at the auto parts store so I have one on order
from Van's.
Kim Nicholas
RV9A 15 hours.
Seattle
Message 11
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| Subject: | Roll Your Own AOA |
--> RV-List message posted by: Warren Hurd <warren@ahyup.com>
From what I understand angle of attack is differential pressure between
the upper and lower parts of the wing or leading edge. A differential
pressure gauge is plumbed to a couple of ports to determine the AOA, or
a small wind vane is mounted on a probe. Either would work. I book
marked this page some time ago. http://www.snyder.on.ca/pages/lri.htm
I am a very low time pilot, building a RV-9A. It will have an AOA and a
low fuel indicator at a minimum. I joined the EAA and am now president
of the chapter. We have the third longest runway in the state, and we
need a hanger. Yesterday we were notified that we have received our
501(c)3 status.
So it is possible to build a plane, a hanger, and a AOA gauge.
Warren Hurd
http://ahyup.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: AOA clamav-milter version 0.80j on zoot.lafn.org |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" <sisson@consolidated.net>
Larry Pardue wrote:
>
>No one has mentioned that an airplane also will not stall going straight up,(Unless
you exceed the critical angle of attack, then it will stall, regardless
of atitude. such as a vertical snap roll)
>even as it reaches 0 airspeed. (no it will not stall at 0 airspeed when going
up, since there is no relative wind, there is no angle of attack. But in many
other atitudes, you would have already exceeded the critical AOA as the A/S diminished
to 0. Flame me easy, LOL.. There are exceptions to this since some airplanes
don't have enough elevator authority to exceed the critical AOA in level
flight) It will fall though. Not recommended low
>either.
>
>
Phil, wish I had a RV to fly
do not archive
Message 13
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--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Streit <wooody04@bellsouth.net>
If you could send that diagram I would appreciate it also.
Jim Streit
RV-9A
dwhite17@columbus.rr.com wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: <dwhite17@columbus.rr.com>
>
>Can those of you with RV-6s that have a controlable pitch prop tell me where you
penetrated the firewall and the length of your prop control cable?
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Control Cables |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
http://www.rvproject.com has many pictures of the process as I flailed
around trying to figure out the easiest way to run the throttle and mixture
cables to the AFP FM-200 on my IO-360-A1B6.
Here's the cable bulkhead I made for the throttle control, which comes from
the left side and swoops under the sump, bulkhead attaching to the little
flange on #2's intake:
http://www.rvproject.com/20030922.html
Here's the cable bulkhead I made for the mixture control, which runs under
the sump:
http://www.rvproject.com/20030926.html
280 hours and counting, and I've had no problems with the cables routed this
way.
Many other photos of different methods I considered are also on the site.
FYI, if you use the method I did, be sure to use heat shields and heat-wrap
your control cables in the vicinity of the exhaust. I've heard lots of
stories about cables becoming inop due to excess radiant heat being
absorbed.
Best of luck,
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Schreck" <ronschreck@webkorner.com>
Subject: RV-List: Control Cables
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Ron Schreck" <ronschreck@webkorner.com>
>
> I'm looking for a few good pictures of cable routing and cable bracket
construction for my application. I have an Airflow Performance Fuel control
on a forward facing sump on my IO360 RV-8. I am planning on coming straight
back under the sump with the throttle and mixture, useing the threaded boss
under the sump to attach a bracket. I plan on useing the A-1550 cables from
ACS with bulkhead fittings at each end. Are these the right cables? I
understand that the standard cable lengths are measured from tip to tip on
these quadrant cables (is that right) but how much do I need to allow to put
a clevis fitting and a rod end bearing on the threaded ends? Is this the
usual setup? Pictures would help a lot! Thanks.
>
> Ron Schreck
> ronschreck@webkorner.com
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: AOA - when going straight up |
--> RV-List message posted by: HAL KEMPTHORNE <hal_kempthorne@sbcglobal.net>
Phil S. says there wouldn't be relative wind if your RV was going straight up.
I can see that it might not amount to much, but there would be some wouldn't
there? I'm not nit picking but just interested in learning.
If one was going straight up in an F16 and fast enough, there would also be lift
I should think. I wonder what the stick forces would be then?
hal
Message 16
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| Subject: | Most important stall practice (long); not builder related |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Kosta Lewis" <mikel@dimensional.com>
This may be in the archives but is still important to this discussion.
One maneuver you should go up and practice in our short winged wonders
may be an issue with stall-spin accidents on the turn from base to
final. This seems to be where a LOT of accidents happen, as previously
alluded.
If you are comfortable with your airplane, do them yourself. If not,
which is to say not comfortable with near-spin entrance or spins (you're
NOT?), get an instructor.
Get some altitude as if you were going to do aerobatics (you may be!).
Line up perpendicular to a road that will function as the "runway", way
down there. Configure for landing: speed you use in a normal pattern
from base to final, flap settings you use for landing. SO: left hand
descending turn base to final on the road setting up to land (at
altitude). But as you come around overshoot the center line of the
"runway" so now it is drifting off to your left a little, nose pointing
to the right of your "runway". Well, that's no problem, your punkin
brain thinks. I'll just shove in a little LEFT rudder and push the tail
around to get lined up.
Here's what happens: you are in a left turn (assuming left hand
pattern), descending, low airspeed. Push that left rudder and suddenly
the right wing speeds up and the left wing slows down and STALLS, and
quicker than suddenly you are pointed left wing WAY down at Mother
Earth, in a near-spin entry. What happens: if your AOA is on the right
wing, maybe no warning; if your (erk) stall warning device is on the
right wing, maybe no beep. But you don't have time to hear/look at that
anyway because you have to react NOW and do what is totally against your
normal thought process and PUSH FORWARD, toward aforementioned Mother
and either let go of the left rudder (should be enough to correct) or
push in a little/bunch of RIGHT rudder to get the left wing going the
same speed as the right. IN AN INSTANT, without regard to airspeed, AOA,
stall warning: i.e. head OUTSIDE of the airplane where is should be. Not
looking at instruments or listening for the (erk) stall horn. And
without overcorrecting and stalling the right wing. Lots to think
about/do in a VERY short amount of time to avoid getting dirt in the
cockpit.
Yikes.
Do this a bunch of times. Do it from the left and right. STALL that wing
and DO WHAT YOU NEED TO DO to correct. Don't just get close; STALL THE
LOW/SLOW WING. It's kind of freaky, even at altitude. I think that
practicing this particular maneuver would help prevent many of the base
to final problems. Can you still get in trouble knowing this? Yes.
Having had this practice establishing that visual and means of recovery
in my pea brain, I am VERY aware of what my feet are doing in the
pattern, especially in turns. They are usually almost off the rudders by
reflex, putting in small corrections when necessary. Practice, practice,
practice.
Since this seems to be where stall-spins occur (getting into IMC and
unable to recover in aerobatics some others, perhaps), this MAY be the
most useful place to recognize entrance to spins.
IMHO, only, of course. Agree: try it; don't agree: disregard as blabber.
Michael
RV-4 N232 Suzie Q
Open canopy NOT an option; on the check list.
AOA and stall warning devices......nah; don't want to get into that one.
Almost did but deleted it: blabber.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" <rv6tc@myawai.com>
Well said, Sam!
Keith
PS. Now can we go re-visit the "primer question"?
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
> Sometimes a perceived lack of humility is merely a reluctance to revisit
> a subject that still has no concrete answer and has been beat to death
> in the past.
>
> Best wishes on a successful and expeditious conclusion to your project,
>
> Sam Buchanan
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
I must be getting weak- I'm finding it harder that ever to resist diving
in to some of these debates!
Having been under canopy a couple hundred times, and upside down rather a
few more, I take all this as much more than an academic exercise and am
searching for some really workable answers.
First off, my understanding is that there is significant up force on a
closed canopy. Second, if the canopy is opened but properly attached to
the plane, it will find an equilibrium point.
If I had a tip up, it would be relatively easy. My canopy hinge would be
segmented and arranged with a pin travel of no more than a few inches to
let go of the canopy. One stroke of the release lever or cable, and air
loads would lift the canopy upward, drag would haul it aft, as well as
breaking the weak spot I'd build into any strut or retention system.
Multiple certified aerobatic aircraft use this technique as I recall.
I am building an -8 with a slider, tho. At first I liked the pull pin in
the canopy roller idea. But if you guys are reporting that the uploads on
the ajar canopy are so great that you can't move the canopy on it's
rollers, then what chance do we have of pulling cylindrical (non-rollered)
pins under the same load? It sounds like some sort of large and obnoxious
mechanically advantaged over center mechanism would be required to make
this idea work reliably. Obviously, not ideal.
It has also occurred to me that one could make canopy roller sized cut
outs in the upper surface of the canopy tracks, located at or just aft of
the open canopy equilibrium point. This way, the canopy would never 'fall
off' during ground / mx ops, but in flight in should go easily. Like
anytime I forgot to latch the sucker for T/O....
Another option might be a pair of shortish arms, one at each canopy roller
station. They would stow against the forward hoop of the canopy frame.
Hinged at the bottom, cycling them aft would pull the roller retaining pins
and unlock the normal canopy latch. Continuing to pull aft would assist
the airstream to pull the canopy aft and clear of the windscreen fairing.
Poof! No more canopy.
Just thinking out loud, hoping to stir the creative pot....
--> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us
So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to blue sky while
you chatter into the intercom telling your friend how easy it is in your
RV-#, when there is a, "bang!" Next you're whistling toward earth at mach
45, but not worried because you wore your chute. You can't control the
airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your slider and pull
and pull and pull...
Can you open it? Has anyone ever?
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: AOA - when going straight up |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
If you were going straight up in an F-16 or maybe Burt let's you take
SpaceShipOne around the patch, the relative wind over the wings would be
the same as if your were in level flight wouldn't it?
HAL KEMPTHORNE wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: HAL KEMPTHORNE <hal_kempthorne@sbcglobal.net>
>
>Phil S. says there wouldn't be relative wind if your RV was going straight up.
I can see that it might not amount to much, but there would be some wouldn't
there? I'm not nit picking but just interested in learning.
>
>If one was going straight up in an F16 and fast enough, there would also be lift
I should think. I wonder what the stick forces would be then?
>
>hal
>
>
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
I guess I was confused. I thought this was a forum for the EXCHANGE of
information and NEW ideas regarding RV building and flying. I wasn't aware
that if the veterans had already discussed something and formed their
opinion, that it was then off limits to those newer to the list. I am a
professor of mathematics, and as such am cursed with a need to solve
problems. When I see someone say that it is IMPOSSIBLE to do something like
raise a canopy, I want to know EXACTLY why. Whether other more seasoned
members know it or not, there IS a solution to the tip-up canopy jettison
problem, it just hasn't been found yet. I noticed that one builder mentioned
the idea of QR pins of some sort, but right away an EXPERT said that
couldn't work - too much pressure. Maybe some method for equalizing that
pressure first is needed. I'm reminded of the need to roll down the window
in a sumerged car before the door will open. I realize it's a thorny
problem, but the attitude really comes across as "We experts couldn't solve
it, so you novices definitely can't". As far as the archives being the
definitive source for info, this may not always be the case. As an
experienced auto/motorcycle/watercraft painter I did a search a while back
to see what people were using to paint their planes. What I saw was a long
list of misinformation about the relative merits of two-stage vs
single-stage systems, sanding methods, filler use, etc. I'm sure if this
topic comes up again, the vets will quickly refer the newbie to the archives
for their sage advice, while dismissing any newer contributor for not having
the requisite "thousands of hours logged". The other day I said that the
door release safety pin on a Decathlon was a bit small, and the response was
"No it's not. Are you a new pilot?" My response to this would be "Oh yes it
is, and yes I am". Am I to infer that as a new pilot, I'm not qualified to
determine if a safety pin is small?!? How many hours do I need to log before
I am qualified to know what fits my own hand?
Steve Zicree
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>
> steve zicree wrote:
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
> >
> > I remember well, and sadly have to agree. The circumstances that would
> > require and allow a succesful egress and chute deployment are very, very
> > narrow indeed. However, if things do come to it, it may be the ONLY way
to
> > survive and therefore deserves thoughtful consideration.
> >
> > The tone of many of the more experienced gents on here brings to mind
> > another highly experienced master of machinery who didn't take the
claims of
> > safety equipment advocates seriously and paid: Dale Earnhardt.
> >
> > When I started flying only 4 short years ago, every old timer I met said
> > that GPS was crap and would never take the place of the trusty VOR! New
> > ideas are GOOD! Investigation is GOOD! Open-minded humility is GOOD.
>
>
> Steve, I must speak up for the old, experienced coots on this list that
> may have sounded like they were expressing less than "Open-minded
humility".
>
> You must keep in mind that the question of whether or not it is possible
> to jettison the tip-up canopy on the RV-6 has been hotly debated by
> RVer's for the nearly twenty years that the RV-6 has been in production.
> This is an old argument that has been hashed multiple times on this list
> and in countless hangar-flyin' sessions.
>
> What the "experienced gents" expressed was probably more of an
> eye-rolling impatience at having to revisit this issue *another* time
> rather than lack of humility. My comment of "prove me wrong" was a
> recognition that we all base our opinions on this subject purely on
> speculation since to our knowledge, nobody has ever jumped from a flying
> tip-up canopy RV-6. There have been instances of RV-4's losing the
> canopy, and there is the tragic Alexander RV-8 accident, but no known
> instances of that happening with an RV-6.
>
> As one who has personal experience with how difficult it can be to
> handle an open canopy in flight, it is my contention that wearing a
> parachute in a tip-up RV-6, 7, 9 is an exercise in futility. However,
> the ONLY way to prove otherwise is for somebody to actually jettison the
> canopy and successfully jump! Until that happens, all we can do is
> speculate on the odds of being able to actually egress from a flying
> tip-up RV. And that experiment will only prove the validity of that
> particular flight scenario.
>
> Having said this, I suspect a new builder will raise this question again
> in a couple of years, and it may be that you will be one of the "RV
> veterans" who will roll their eyes and say "not again....." and urge the
> newbie to read the scores of messages in the archives on this subject.
>
> Sometimes a perceived lack of humility is merely a reluctance to revisit
> a subject that still has no concrete answer and has been beat to death
> in the past.
>
> Best wishes on a successful and expeditious conclusion to your project,
>
> Sam Buchanan
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: AOA - when going straight up |
--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
HAL KEMPTHORNE wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: HAL KEMPTHORNE <hal_kempthorne@sbcglobal.net>
>
>Phil S. says there wouldn't be relative wind if your RV was going straight up.
I can see that it might not amount to much, but there would be some wouldn't
there? I'm not nit picking but just interested in learning.
>
>If one was going straight up in an F16 and fast enough, there would also be lift
I should think. I wonder what the stick forces would be then?
>
>hal
>
If the plane is moving through the air, there is relative wind. Just do
a true (vertical line) hammerhead or ride with someone who knows how if
you aren't comfortable doing one. Once on a vertical line, you must hold
slight down elevator or the wing will try to 'climb' over backward if
you haven't retrimmed from level flight. If you have inverted fuel & oil
(meaning the engine keeps running all the way to the top), the stick
will likely end up in the far right forward quadrant before you kick
rudder to rotate.
If you pull hard enough you can stall the wing going straight up (or any
other direction). Vertical snap rolls, up and down, are performed at
airshows all the time.
Charlie
(feeling a bit silly writing this with so many more experienced pilots
on the list)
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>First off, my understanding is that there is significant up force on a
>closed canopy. ...
This does not seem intuitive to me. Looking at the front
of an RV8, the top of the canopy sticks up over the top
of the windscreen, which tells me that the forces would
be pushing the canopy down, at least at the top of the
canopy.
>...
>I am building an -8 with a slider, tho. At first I liked the pull pin in
>the canopy roller idea. But if you guys are reporting that the uploads on
>the ajar canopy are so great that you can't move the canopy on it's
>rollers, then what chance do we have of pulling cylindrical (non-rollered)
>pins under the same load? ...
Could the problem be the down force that makes it hard to get
the rear part of the canopy up that first two inches?
>...
>
>Another option might be a pair of shortish arms, one at each canopy roller
>station. They would stow against the forward hoop of the canopy frame.
>Hinged at the bottom, cycling them aft would pull the roller retaining pins
>and unlock the normal canopy latch. Continuing to pull aft would assist
>the airstream to pull the canopy aft and clear of the windscreen fairing.
>Poof! No more canopy.
That seems to be a good idea. Something simple to give you a
mechanical advantage.
>Just thinking out loud, hoping to stir the creative pot....
It does seem like the need to jump out is almost non-existent,
and with one exception, I have not read any NTSB reports that
indicated that the need to punch existed.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
When you say "almost non-existent", do you mean the need to punch out of an
RV or any aircraft?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mickey Coggins" <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> --> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
>
> >First off, my understanding is that there is significant up force on a
> >closed canopy. ...
>
> This does not seem intuitive to me. Looking at the front
> of an RV8, the top of the canopy sticks up over the top
> of the windscreen, which tells me that the forces would
> be pushing the canopy down, at least at the top of the
> canopy.
>
> >...
> >I am building an -8 with a slider, tho. At first I liked the pull pin in
> >the canopy roller idea. But if you guys are reporting that the uploads
on
> >the ajar canopy are so great that you can't move the canopy on it's
> >rollers, then what chance do we have of pulling cylindrical
(non-rollered)
> >pins under the same load? ...
>
> Could the problem be the down force that makes it hard to get
> the rear part of the canopy up that first two inches?
>
>
> >...
> >
> >Another option might be a pair of shortish arms, one at each canopy
roller
> >station. They would stow against the forward hoop of the canopy frame.
> >Hinged at the bottom, cycling them aft would pull the roller retaining
pins
> >and unlock the normal canopy latch. Continuing to pull aft would assist
> >the airstream to pull the canopy aft and clear of the windscreen fairing.
> >Poof! No more canopy.
>
> That seems to be a good idea. Something simple to give you a
> mechanical advantage.
>
>
> >Just thinking out loud, hoping to stir the creative pot....
>
> It does seem like the need to jump out is almost non-existent,
> and with one exception, I have not read any NTSB reports that
> indicated that the need to punch existed.
>
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: AOA - when going straight up |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" <T.gummo@verizon.net>
Scott,
I haven't gone straight up in an F-16 but I have in an F-4G and mine Harmon
Rocket.
It has been a long time since I took that aero class in pilot training but
isn't relative wind measured as the movement of air molecules in relation to
the wing (cord line??). Therefore, relative wind requires aircraft-airflow
relative movement and is NOT dependent on attitude.
I have exceeded the critical AOA (i.e. stalled) the wings in level flight,
going straight up, upside down, and even going straight down.
Question?? What is the stall speed at "ZERO G"?
Short Answer: ZERO Knots (or mph).
Therefore, if you are at altitude doing some aerobatic maneuvers, find
yourself running out of airspeed, and don't want to stall, you can reduce
stick pressures until you reach the "Zero G" (I look for a light feeling in
the seat. Not me pushing up against the seatbelt) and then just center the
ailerons and rudders and ride it out until you have enough airspeed to take
back control again.
Of course, if you haven't had any acro training, please get some before
attempting. Stop by APV and we will talk AOA and stalling and just flying
stories (some may be true).
Tom Gummo
Apple Valley, CA
Harmon Rocket-II
do not archive
http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott VanArtsdalen" <svanarts@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: AOA - when going straight up
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
>
> If you were going straight up in an F-16 or maybe Burt let's you take
> SpaceShipOne around the patch, the relative wind over the wings would be
> the same as if your were in level flight wouldn't it?
Message 25
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| Subject: | re: Stall Training |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
Hi All-
This is my last post, I promise... for today, anyway.
The whole debate about requiring stall avoidance training vs. spin recovery
training is largely a political football. Just as eights on pylon come and
go from the syllabus every couple of decades, so does the stance on stalls.
It kind of reminds me of the whole 'is the glass half empty or half full'
debate. Personally, I choose to go fill the glass as full as I can and
then drink deeply. As students, we can ask to learn about whatever we
want. As instructors, we can teach whatever we feel is important, as long
as we meet the letter of the law along the way.
Way back when (before parachutes were req'd), all my students did the full
stall series, both imminent and full, and spun before they soloed. It was
an easy, non-traumatic, an universally enjoyed process. We covered the
ground school portion earlier in the curriculum. At some later date, with
no preflight brief on the subject of spins, I'd have the student do a full
departure stall to the right. This is of course, the single time when one
will need the most right rudder flying a US built plane. And (snicker) you
KNOW the student isn't going to supply that rudder without coaching. So I
didn't. Guess what? Spin entry to the left. The student will usually
release some back pressure and rudder, and voila! The trusty 152 is flying
again. If a little coaching is needed, so be it. With no other direction
at that moment, the student will recover to the default condition of
straight and level. Then they look at you and say, 'was that a spin? That
was fun! Can we do that again?'
As we all know, flying is 95% between the ears. By sneaking it up on the
student, they couldn't stress out about the impending death-defying
maneuver. Thus, stress induced tunnel vision wasn't there to impede their
performance. By doing it in a plane like a 152, the inputs required for a
successful outcome were miniscule. The end result was a slew of students
that were all better prepared to deal with inadvertent spin situations, and
had a higher comfort level overall since there was one less unknown to be
fearful of. Not to mention the object lesson about what uncoordinated
flight at the edge of the envelope can produce.
Education is good, and one never knows when some odd bit of what you
learned will come in handy. But if you never learned it in the first
place....
Message 26
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| Subject: | The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Edward Cole" <edwardmcole@comcast.net>
Steve, the argument here is not over whether or not to use a parachute
but rather, can you get out of the aircraft? In a RV6/7 tilt-up, I'd say
you would be hard pressed to do so.
I remember Von, and had corresponded with him shortly before his
accident.
I have no idea how he got out of that airplane.
Ed Cole
RV6A N2169D Flying
RV6A N648RV Finishing
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve zicree
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
I remember well, and sadly have to agree. The circumstances that would
require and allow a succesful egress and chute deployment are very, very
narrow indeed. However, if things do come to it, it may be the ONLY way
to
survive and therefore deserves thoughtful consideration.
The tone of many of the more experienced gents on here brings to mind
another highly experienced master of machinery who didn't take the
claims of
safety equipment advocates seriously and paid: Dale Earnhardt.
When I started flying only 4 short years ago, every old timer I met said
that GPS was crap and would never take the place of the trusty VOR! New
ideas are GOOD! Investigation is GOOD! Open-minded humility is GOOD.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott VanArtsdalen" <svanarts@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
>
> I can think of one situation where I'd open the canopy and egress
under
> controlled flight.
>
> Anyone remember Von Alexander? There's more reasons than just loss of
> control to open your canopy.
>
> Edward Cole wrote:
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "Edward Cole"
<edwardmcole@comcast.net>
> >
> >If the situation arose that you would consider bailing out of a RV6/7
> >tilt-up, I would assume that control of the aircraft would have to be
> >lost and you would be flailing about the cabin against unimaginable
> >forces.
> >In this case you would still have to be able to disconnect the lift
> >struts,
> >pull the emergency release handle, push the canopy up far enough
against
> >a 150-200 mph wind to throw it up over your head before you could
exit
> >the aircraft.
> >The other scenario is that you are straight and level and still have
to
> >go through the same maneuvers. Of course if you were straight and
level
> >and in control of the aircraft, why jump out?
> >The bottom line is that jettisoning the canopy in flight would be
> >practically impossible. The posts concerning takeoff and flight with
> >an open canopy shows how tough it is to even move the canopy.
> >
> >
> >Ed Cole
> >RV6A N2169D Flying
> >RV6A N648RV Finishing
> >
> >
>
> --
> Scott VanArtsdalen
> Van Arts Consulting Services
> 3848 McHenry Ave
> Suite #155-184
> Modesto, CA 95356
> 209-986-4647
> Ps 34:4,6
>
>
Message 27
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Bundy" <edbundy@velocitus.net>
Personally I think both of these issues are important. I have always
trained my students to be able to fully stall and recover the airplane in
all normal configurations. I also train them to fully understand and
recognize pre-stall conditions.
The aircraft I train in (C152 and Cherokee 180) are both similar in their
pre-stall warnings. First the stall horn comes on (stall light in the 180),
then the controls get "mushy", then there is some slight buffeting, then the
aircraft stalls. When doing any type of stall, I require the student call
out when the horn comes on, when the controls get mushy, and when the
buffeting starts - then that any additional aft yoke will cause the stall.
Then they stall and recover. By ingraining the pre-stall indications,
hopefully they will never experience an inadvertent stall.
Everyone should certainly know how to recover from an intentional and
inadvertent stall. But equally important is to be able to recognize an
imminent inadvertent stall, and correct it before the airplane stalls. If
all inadvertent stalls were corrected before the fact there would be no
stall/spin accidents. Also, not all aircraft exhibit all 3 of these
pre-stall warnings, but they all exhibit at least one.
Actually, I don't think the FAA promotes "recovery at first indication" as
being the only or even most important part of stall training. In the
private pilot PTS, objective 6 for power on/off stalls is that the applicant
"recognizes and recovers promptly *after the stall occurs* by... (emphasis
mine). It doesn't even say anything about recognizing pre-stall
indications.
That said, both of the examiners I deal with require full stall recover AND
initial indication proficiency. Personally, I agree.
Ed Bundy - Eagle, Idaho
RV6A 600+ hours
> This FAA sanctioned/fostered/promoted "approach to stalls"/"start recovery
> at the first indication of a stall" thing is the single most
> serious safety
> problem that exists in this country, in General Aviation - in my opinion.
> It is the only aviation issue I am absolutely PASSIONATE about.
> - All pilots should be - but are not -properly instructed in the
> essential knowledge of safe recovery from a stall. The bi-annual reviews
> and initial flight instruction have been fatally poisoned by the
> FAA idiocy
> so that I see no evidence of proper instruction and practice.
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" <pvalovich@dcscorp.com>
> >
> > Recent discussion here and an article in Flying talked about the reduced
> > focus on stall training in modern flight instruction programs, and
> > seemed to question the need for stall / spin training. Maybe I'm missing
> > something, but putting aside the need to actually spin the airplane -
> > isn't the real learning point recognition of the approach to stall in
> > all flight regions, not necessarily the reaction once the full stall
>
---
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>When you say "almost non-existent", do you mean the need to punch out of an
>RV or any aircraft?
Hi Steve,
I'm thinking about RVs, and basing this on the NTSB stats.
The only cases I can think of that might warrant a bail-out
would be inflight fire, midair collision, structural/control
failure, and perhaps engine failure over hostile terrain.
These would also be good places to use a ballistic parachute,
if you have one on your aircraft.
I don't have exact numbers handy, but my reading of the NTSB
stats shows that these problems don't happen often in an RV.
Best regards,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
Message 29
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| Subject: | The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
You are making assumptions regarding attitude. Maybe it will open when in
an inverted flat spin, or cartwheeling because the empennage has been cut of
from a mid-air, etc, etc.
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
> <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
> Your canopy slides back in flight? On my 8 it will not,
> unless maybe I have some sort of pry bar. We have been
> through this in the past and I am amazed at how easy
> people think it is to open/close the canopy in
> flight. No insults intended towards anyone just my experience.
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
Suppose the plane is broken and tumbling. Will it open then? Deep in a
stall? Many on the list have said the the parachute is worthless since you
CAN'T get out. Well I say there are situations where you MIGHT be able to
get out and that's what matters. We had an airplane out here in Long Beach,
CA a couple of years ago lose elevator control. The pilots were both
skydivers, and so they opted to go for a swim rather than try to fly using
trim control. Now, with little or no elevator control, an aircraft might
start porpoising and might just help toss that canopy off. I know it's a
stretch, but freaky things happen. I think the prevailing theory regarding
Von Alexander's accident is that something pushed the stick forward and
caused a negative g situation. I believe the canopy of his 8 was already
off.
Steve Zicree
----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Cole" <edwardmcole@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Edward Cole" <edwardmcole@comcast.net>
>
> Steve, the argument here is not over whether or not to use a parachute
> but rather, can you get out of the aircraft? In a RV6/7 tilt-up, I'd say
> you would be hard pressed to do so.
> I remember Von, and had corresponded with him shortly before his
> accident.
> I have no idea how he got out of that airplane.
>
>
> Ed Cole
> RV6A N2169D Flying
> RV6A N648RV Finishing
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve zicree
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
> I remember well, and sadly have to agree. The circumstances that would
> require and allow a succesful egress and chute deployment are very, very
> narrow indeed. However, if things do come to it, it may be the ONLY way
> to
> survive and therefore deserves thoughtful consideration.
>
> The tone of many of the more experienced gents on here brings to mind
> another highly experienced master of machinery who didn't take the
> claims of
> safety equipment advocates seriously and paid: Dale Earnhardt.
>
> When I started flying only 4 short years ago, every old timer I met said
> that GPS was crap and would never take the place of the trusty VOR! New
> ideas are GOOD! Investigation is GOOD! Open-minded humility is GOOD.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott VanArtsdalen" <svanarts@yahoo.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
> >
> > I can think of one situation where I'd open the canopy and egress
> under
> > controlled flight.
> >
> > Anyone remember Von Alexander? There's more reasons than just loss of
> > control to open your canopy.
> >
> > Edward Cole wrote:
> >
> > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Edward Cole"
> <edwardmcole@comcast.net>
> > >
> > >If the situation arose that you would consider bailing out of a RV6/7
> > >tilt-up, I would assume that control of the aircraft would have to be
> > >lost and you would be flailing about the cabin against unimaginable
> > >forces.
> > >In this case you would still have to be able to disconnect the lift
> > >struts,
> > >pull the emergency release handle, push the canopy up far enough
> against
> > >a 150-200 mph wind to throw it up over your head before you could
> exit
> > >the aircraft.
> > >The other scenario is that you are straight and level and still have
> to
> > >go through the same maneuvers. Of course if you were straight and
> level
> > >and in control of the aircraft, why jump out?
> > >The bottom line is that jettisoning the canopy in flight would be
> > >practically impossible. The posts concerning takeoff and flight with
> > >an open canopy shows how tough it is to even move the canopy.
> > >
> > >
> > >Ed Cole
> > >RV6A N2169D Flying
> > >RV6A N648RV Finishing
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Scott VanArtsdalen
> > Van Arts Consulting Services
> > 3848 McHenry Ave
> > Suite #155-184
> > Modesto, CA 95356
> > 209-986-4647
> > Ps 34:4,6
> >
> >
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | AOA, Warning horn |
--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us>
Folks,
after doing some various tuft testing, I'm not convinced that there would be
much time between horn on and an accelerated stall.
The AOA gives much better data, and the Dynon unit works fine, although I
would like to see the -10A with the audio working in concert with the AOA,
or G meter depending on what you are doing.
The only thing I would recommend is a larger presentation of it on the
screen.
do not archive
W
Message 32
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| Subject: | The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
There is no pressure on them in flight, with the canopy latched. They can
be pulled easily.
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kathleen@rv7.us [mailto:Kathleen@rv7.us]
> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 12:54 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us
>
> Very good idea. Have you tried pulling the pins with LOTS of
> pressure on the canopy? We'd probably all like to know if it
> works. Just don't break your canopy trying.. :-)
>
> Kathleen Evans
> www.rv7.us
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Bowen
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
>
> Never done it. Hope I never have to.
>
> But I installed quick release pins just in case.
>
> http://bowenaero.com/mt3/archives/2003/11/canopy.html
>
> -
> Larry Bowen
> Larry@BowenAero.com
> http://BowenAero.com
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kathleen@rv7.us [mailto:Kathleen@rv7.us]
> > Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 3:10 AM
> > To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> >
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us
> >
> > So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back
> to blue sky
> > while you chatter into the intercom telling your friend how
> easy it is
> > in your RV-#, when there is a, "bang!"
> > Next you're whistling toward earth at mach 45, but not
> worried because
> > you wore your chute. You can't control the airplane, so
> it's time to
> > hit the silk. You unlatch your slider and pull and pull and pull...
> >
> > Can you open it? Has anyone ever?
> >
> > Kathleen Evans
> > www.rv7.us
>
>
> =========
> =========
> Matronics Forums.
> =========
> =========
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 33
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
Please tell me about it.
It's on my list of things to do. I've spun a C172 and a Decathalon. Is it
more of the same, just quicker to accelerate when pointed down? Or is there
more to it?
-
Larry Bowen, RV-8, 23.5 Hrs.
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fiveonepw@aol.com [mailto:Fiveonepw@aol.com]
[snip]
>
> Just wait'll ya get to spin it!!!!!! 8-)
>
> Mark & do not archive
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: AOA, Warning horn |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
I also await the Dynon with audio stuff. Incidently, Wheeler North is a
pretty cool, action-figure sorta name, second only to Wolfe Blitzer : )
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wheeler North" <wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us>
Subject: RV-List: AOA, Warning horn
> --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us>
>
> Folks,
>
> after doing some various tuft testing, I'm not convinced that there would
be
> much time between horn on and an accelerated stall.
>
> The AOA gives much better data, and the Dynon unit works fine, although I
> would like to see the -10A with the audio working in concert with the AOA,
> or G meter depending on what you are doing.
>
> The only thing I would recommend is a larger presentation of it on the
> screen.
>
> do not archive
>
> W
>
>
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer@sbcglobal.net>
Just to pose a dumb scenario? Assuming that you could not get the canopy on
a slider open, and the airplane is not violently spinning,..... what would
keep you from grabbing the passenger side stick, beating the *ell out of the
slider canopy, and scooting out through the broken hole. (Also assuming you
had a chute) Also likely that after breaking the canopy, the airstream force
holding it down/up pick one, would be diminished and it might slide back
fairly easily?
I agree that if it's under control, daylight, etc, ride it to the ground.
What about the recent post where the windscreen was completely covered with
oil (ice?). No visibility front or side. Is breaking the slider part,
leaving the windshield intact an option to give you side visibility? Would
think it's doable with the slider but problematic with the tip up?
Bill Schlatterer
7a QB
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Scott
VanArtsdalen
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
I can think of one situation where I'd open the canopy and egress under
controlled flight.
Anyone remember Von Alexander? There's more reasons than just loss of
control to open your canopy.
Edward Cole wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Edward Cole" <edwardmcole@comcast.net>
>
>If the situation arose that you would consider bailing out of a RV6/7
>tilt-up, I would assume that control of the aircraft would have to be
>lost and you would be flailing about the cabin against unimaginable
>forces.
>In this case you would still have to be able to disconnect the lift
>struts,
>pull the emergency release handle, push the canopy up far enough against
>a 150-200 mph wind to throw it up over your head before you could exit
>the aircraft.
>The other scenario is that you are straight and level and still have to
>go through the same maneuvers. Of course if you were straight and level
>and in control of the aircraft, why jump out?
>The bottom line is that jettisoning the canopy in flight would be
>practically impossible. The posts concerning takeoff and flight with
>an open canopy shows how tough it is to even move the canopy.
>
>
>Ed Cole
>RV6A N2169D Flying
>RV6A N648RV Finishing
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: master relay failure |
--> RV-List message posted by: Doug Gray <dgra1233@bigpond.net.au>
In this country (Australia) a popular Boat Warehousing chain has a very similar
if not the same
relay. You may find the same in the US.
Doug Gray
do not archive
Knicholas2@aol.com wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Knicholas2@aol.com
>
> I pulled my RV9 out of the hangar yesterday to enjoy an unusaully nice
> Seattle, fall day, I hit the master switch - NOTHING. I took to cowl off
and
> determined that the master relay was "sticking". The relay was one of teh
> first accessories I installed during construction and probably has 1000+ cycles
> on it. But it is common for such a "simple" relay to stick and fail? I could
> not find a comparable relay at the auto parts store so I have one on order
> from Van's.
>
> Kim Nicholas
> RV9A 15 hours.
> Seattle
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: AOA - when going straight up |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
I was really trying to say pretty much the same thing you just did.
I've NEVER flown straight up in anything so I wouldn't know. It just
seems to make sense that if the air is moving over the wings from front
to back in a "normal" fashion, the airplane really wouldn't care which
way was up, down, or sideways. That still doesn't read quite right. Aw
nuts, at any rate, I agree with you.
Tom Gummo wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" <T.gummo@verizon.net>
>
>Scott,
>
>I haven't gone straight up in an F-16 but I have in an F-4G and mine Harmon
>Rocket.
>
>It has been a long time since I took that aero class in pilot training but
>isn't relative wind measured as the movement of air molecules in relation to
>the wing (cord line??). Therefore, relative wind requires aircraft-airflow
>relative movement and is NOT dependent on attitude.
>
>I have exceeded the critical AOA (i.e. stalled) the wings in level flight,
>going straight up, upside down, and even going straight down.
>
>Question?? What is the stall speed at "ZERO G"?
>Short Answer: ZERO Knots (or mph).
>
>Therefore, if you are at altitude doing some aerobatic maneuvers, find
>yourself running out of airspeed, and don't want to stall, you can reduce
>stick pressures until you reach the "Zero G" (I look for a light feeling in
>the seat. Not me pushing up against the seatbelt) and then just center the
>ailerons and rudders and ride it out until you have enough airspeed to take
>back control again.
>
>Of course, if you haven't had any acro training, please get some before
>attempting. Stop by APV and we will talk AOA and stalling and just flying
>stories (some may be true).
>
>Tom Gummo
>Apple Valley, CA
>Harmon Rocket-II
>
>do not archive
>
>http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Scott VanArtsdalen" <svanarts@yahoo.com>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: AOA - when going straight up
>
>
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
>>
>>If you were going straight up in an F-16 or maybe Burt let's you take
>>SpaceShipOne around the patch, the relative wind over the wings would be
>>the same as if your were in level flight wouldn't it?
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
> >First off, my understanding is that there is significant up force on a
> >closed canopy. ...
>
>This does not seem intuitive to me. Looking at the front
>of an RV8, the top of the canopy sticks up over the top
>of the windscreen, which tells me that the forces would
>be pushing the canopy down, at least at the top of the
>canopy.
If we follow the same logic, we should conclude that the air would hit the
curved part on the upper leading edge of the wing, and cause a downwards
force. But it doesn't - the force on the wing is upwards, because the air
accelerates over that curved leading edge. And Bernoulli's Law tells us
that the air pressure decreases when it accelerates. The lower pressure on
top of the wing makes a significant contribution to the lift. The same
thing happens as the air goes over the windscreen and the curved front part
of the canopy. The air has to accelerate, and that causes the pressure to
fall.
Another, more complicated, way to look at it is to consider that Newton's
First Law tells us that an object continues in a straight line unless a
force is applied to it. So, the air that is going up the slope of the
windscreen would tend to keep going in that direction. But it follows a
curved path to go over the top of the canopy. It is forced into this
curved path because the pressure at the canopy surface is lower than the
free stream pressure. This pressure difference provides the force needed
to push that air stream "around the corner" from the windscreen to the
canopy top. The Newton's First Law and Bernoulli's Law explanation are
simply different views of the same phenomenon.
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
There is significant down force on the canopy due to it's shape and the
prop blast hitting it. If a guy could pull some pins and raise the
canopy slightly in the front allowing the prop blast to get under it,
even a tip up canopy would disappear post haste. I would think. There
are several accounts of how the RV-4's canopy departs and it has much
smaller area than a 6 canopy.
Mickey Coggins wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
>
>
>
>>First off, my understanding is that there is significant up force on a
>>closed canopy. ...
>>
>>
>
>This does not seem intuitive to me. Looking at the front
>of an RV8, the top of the canopy sticks up over the top
>of the windscreen, which tells me that the forces would
>be pushing the canopy down, at least at the top of the
>canopy.
>
>
>
>>...
>>I am building an -8 with a slider, tho. At first I liked the pull pin in
>>the canopy roller idea. But if you guys are reporting that the uploads on
>>the ajar canopy are so great that you can't move the canopy on it's
>>rollers, then what chance do we have of pulling cylindrical (non-rollered)
>>pins under the same load? ...
>>
>>
>
>Could the problem be the down force that makes it hard to get
>the rear part of the canopy up that first two inches?
>
>
>
>
>>...
>>
>>Another option might be a pair of shortish arms, one at each canopy roller
>>station. They would stow against the forward hoop of the canopy frame.
>>Hinged at the bottom, cycling them aft would pull the roller retaining pins
>>and unlock the normal canopy latch. Continuing to pull aft would assist
>>the airstream to pull the canopy aft and clear of the windscreen fairing.
>>Poof! No more canopy.
>>
>>
>
>That seems to be a good idea. Something simple to give you a
>mechanical advantage.
>
>
>
>
>>Just thinking out loud, hoping to stir the creative pot....
>>
>>
>
>It does seem like the need to jump out is almost non-existent,
>and with one exception, I have not read any NTSB reports that
>indicated that the need to punch existed.
>
>
>--
>Mickey Coggins
>http://www.rv8.ch/
>#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
Message 40
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|
| Subject: | new guys questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: "D. Wayne Stiles" <dwstiles@hotmail.com>
My buddy Jim and I are getting ready to start on his RV-7 kit. We working on the
practice pieces right now andhope to get our confidence/proficiencylevel up
to the point of starting the empenage soon. We have a couple of questions.
1) We are working in our local EAA chapter's unheated hangar (for now) the cold
seems to really mess up the rivit gun. Instead of driving the rivits it just
seems to suffer from a high pitched case of flatulance. We even borrowed another
RV-ers gun and got the same effect. Heating the gun with a lamp or a hair dryer
will help for a whle but when it cools off again the problem returns
What causes this type of problem? What, short of heaitng the hangar, or moving
to project to another location might provide a solution?
2) What is the current trend/thought regarding the re-drilling/match reaming of
the prepunched holes?
3) Re: priming (not primer) at what stage is the interior primer applied: before
dimpling, reaming etc or after but prior to assembly.
Jim and Waynein Niles MI
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
steve zicree wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
>Suppose the plane is broken and tumbling. Will it open then? Deep in a
>stall? Many on the list have said the the parachute is worthless since you
>CAN'T get out.
>
Let me run this by y'all (since we're having so much fun with it): When
it comes time to exit, canopy or not, you're going to be so shot full of
adrenalin that NOTHING will stand in your way of getting out .... unless
you're injured ..... and the adrenalin may just make injuries go away
.... at least for the time being. Unhitch your safety belt and jam the
stick forward (yeah, I know maybe that's the problem) and your 180 Lb
(OK, I'm being nice is now ) is going to be over 1000 lbs. Think the
canopy is going to stay there???
Linn ..... knows about adrenalin
do not archive
> Well I say there are situations where you MIGHT be able to
>get out and that's what matters. We had an airplane out here in Long Beach,
>CA a couple of years ago lose elevator control. The pilots were both
>skydivers, and so they opted to go for a swim rather than try to fly using
>trim control. Now, with little or no elevator control, an aircraft might
>start porpoising and might just help toss that canopy off. I know it's a
>stretch, but freaky things happen. I think the prevailing theory regarding
>Von Alexander's accident is that something pushed the stick forward and
>caused a negative g situation. I believe the canopy of his 8 was already
>off.
>
>Steve Zicree
>
Message 42
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| Subject: | The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us
Well, I'm really glad I brought this subject up! For those of you who
require apologies, I apologize. I think I have the answer. I'm working on
a forward-facing trap door under the seats. Pull a lever and the seats and
occupants just drop out the bottom. It couldn't be simpler, right?
Wait! Wait! Please! Let's not start discussing the merits of this!
I take it back!
:-) :-))
Kathleen Evans
www.rv7.us
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn walters
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
steve zicree wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
>Suppose the plane is broken and tumbling. Will it open then? Deep in a
>stall? Many on the list have said the the parachute is worthless since you
>CAN'T get out.
>
Let me run this by y'all (since we're having so much fun with it): When
it comes time to exit, canopy or not, you're going to be so shot full of
adrenalin that NOTHING will stand in your way of getting out .... unless
you're injured ..... and the adrenalin may just make injuries go away
.... at least for the time being. Unhitch your safety belt and jam the
stick forward (yeah, I know maybe that's the problem) and your 180 Lb
(OK, I'm being nice is now ) is going to be over 1000 lbs. Think the
canopy is going to stay there???
Linn ..... knows about adrenalin
do not archive
> Well I say there are situations where you MIGHT be able to
>get out and that's what matters. We had an airplane out here in Long Beach,
>CA a couple of years ago lose elevator control. The pilots were both
>skydivers, and so they opted to go for a swim rather than try to fly using
>trim control. Now, with little or no elevator control, an aircraft might
>start porpoising and might just help toss that canopy off. I know it's a
>stretch, but freaky things happen. I think the prevailing theory regarding
>Von Alexander's accident is that something pushed the stick forward and
>caused a negative g situation. I believe the canopy of his 8 was already
>off.
>
>Steve Zicree
>
Message 43
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|
| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
This is great! Please take this in the spirit it is intended. :-)
I've always heard you should try to roll inverted first so let's say I
do that. I roll the plane upside down, jam the stick forward (with no
seatbelt) and I'm forced up and out. I have these visions of the pop
rivets that hold my canopy hinge on letting go before the plastic does.
So now I'm hurtling earthward in a clear bathtub. Should I just stand
up in the tub, salute and pull my rip cord?
Nuts! I don't even own a parachute! Now what?! :-D
Nevermind I'll answer my own question. An old-timer (who had never
jettisoned his canopy and didn't have an AOA system, he used the door on
his Cub) once told me: "If the situation looks hopeless, drop your
drawers and sit on the stick. It won't help but it will sure get the
NTSB boys to scratching their heads."
linn walters wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
>
>steve zicree wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>>
>>Suppose the plane is broken and tumbling. Will it open then? Deep in a
>>stall? Many on the list have said the the parachute is worthless since you
>>CAN'T get out.
>>
>>
>>
>Let me run this by y'all (since we're having so much fun with it): When
>it comes time to exit, canopy or not, you're going to be so shot full of
>adrenalin that NOTHING will stand in your way of getting out .... unless
>you're injured ..... and the adrenalin may just make injuries go away
>.... at least for the time being. Unhitch your safety belt and jam the
>stick forward (yeah, I know maybe that's the problem) and your 180 Lb
>(OK, I'm being nice is now ) is going to be over 1000 lbs. Think the
>canopy is going to stay there???
>Linn ..... knows about adrenalin
>do not archive
>
>
>
>>Well I say there are situations where you MIGHT be able to
>>get out and that's what matters. We had an airplane out here in Long Beach,
>>CA a couple of years ago lose elevator control. The pilots were both
>>skydivers, and so they opted to go for a swim rather than try to fly using
>>trim control. Now, with little or no elevator control, an aircraft might
>>start porpoising and might just help toss that canopy off. I know it's a
>>stretch, but freaky things happen. I think the prevailing theory regarding
>>Von Alexander's accident is that something pushed the stick forward and
>>caused a negative g situation. I believe the canopy of his 8 was already
>>off.
>>
>>Steve Zicree
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
Too cool. "Okay Mr. CFI, you better talk real nice to me."
Kathleen@rv7.us wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us
>
>Well, I'm really glad I brought this subject up! For those of you who
>require apologies, I apologize. I think I have the answer. I'm working on
>a forward-facing trap door under the seats. Pull a lever and the seats and
>occupants just drop out the bottom. It couldn't be simpler, right?
>
>Wait! Wait! Please! Let's not start discussing the merits of this!
>I take it back!
>:-) :-))
>
>Kathleen Evans
>www.rv7.us
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn walters
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
>
>steve zicree wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>>
>>Suppose the plane is broken and tumbling. Will it open then? Deep in a
>>stall? Many on the list have said the the parachute is worthless since you
>>CAN'T get out.
>>
>>
>>
>Let me run this by y'all (since we're having so much fun with it): When
>it comes time to exit, canopy or not, you're going to be so shot full of
>adrenalin that NOTHING will stand in your way of getting out .... unless
>you're injured ..... and the adrenalin may just make injuries go away
>.... at least for the time being. Unhitch your safety belt and jam the
>stick forward (yeah, I know maybe that's the problem) and your 180 Lb
>(OK, I'm being nice is now ) is going to be over 1000 lbs. Think the
>canopy is going to stay there???
>Linn ..... knows about adrenalin
>do not archive
>
>
>
>>Well I say there are situations where you MIGHT be able to
>>get out and that's what matters. We had an airplane out here in Long Beach,
>>CA a couple of years ago lose elevator control. The pilots were both
>>skydivers, and so they opted to go for a swim rather than try to fly using
>>trim control. Now, with little or no elevator control, an aircraft might
>>start porpoising and might just help toss that canopy off. I know it's a
>>stretch, but freaky things happen. I think the prevailing theory regarding
>>Von Alexander's accident is that something pushed the stick forward and
>>caused a negative g situation. I believe the canopy of his 8 was already
>>off.
>>
>>Steve Zicree
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
Message 45
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|
| Subject: | prop flange oil leak |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut@engalt.com>
This is not really RV related, but I know there are a bunch of engine gurus
on the list.
My friend has a Lycoming engine with a fixed pitch prop and it is leaking
oil on the front face of the prop. If I remember correctly there is a hole
in the crankshaft and prop flange for when a constant speed prop is used. I
believe that there is some type of plug or gasket that goes over this hole
when a fixed pitch prop is used that keeps oil from leaking out and it is a
simple matter of removing the prop and replacing it if it leaks. Am I
correct on this?
Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com
Message 46
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|
| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
I love it! :-D :-D :-D . ROFL!
Linn
do not archive
Scott VanArtsdalen wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
>
>This is great! Please take this in the spirit it is intended. :-)
>I've always heard you should try to roll inverted first so let's say I
>do that. I roll the plane upside down, jam the stick forward (with no
>seatbelt) and I'm forced up and out. I have these visions of the pop
>rivets that hold my canopy hinge on letting go before the plastic does.
>So now I'm hurtling earthward in a clear bathtub. Should I just stand
>up in the tub, salute and pull my rip cord?
>
>Nuts! I don't even own a parachute! Now what?! :-D
>
>Nevermind I'll answer my own question. An old-timer (who had never
>jettisoned his canopy and didn't have an AOA system, he used the door on
>his Cub) once told me: "If the situation looks hopeless, drop your
>drawers and sit on the stick. It won't help but it will sure get the
>NTSB boys to scratching their heads."
>
>linn walters wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
>>
>>steve zicree wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>>>
>>>Suppose the plane is broken and tumbling. Will it open then? Deep in a
>>>stall? Many on the list have said the the parachute is worthless since you
>>>CAN'T get out.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Let me run this by y'all (since we're having so much fun with it): When
>>it comes time to exit, canopy or not, you're going to be so shot full of
>>adrenalin that NOTHING will stand in your way of getting out .... unless
>>you're injured ..... and the adrenalin may just make injuries go away
>>.... at least for the time being. Unhitch your safety belt and jam the
>>stick forward (yeah, I know maybe that's the problem) and your 180 Lb
>>(OK, I'm being nice is now ) is going to be over 1000 lbs. Think the
>>canopy is going to stay there???
>>Linn ..... knows about adrenalin
>>do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Well I say there are situations where you MIGHT be able to
>>>get out and that's what matters. We had an airplane out here in Long Beach,
>>>CA a couple of years ago lose elevator control. The pilots were both
>>>skydivers, and so they opted to go for a swim rather than try to fly using
>>>trim control. Now, with little or no elevator control, an aircraft might
>>>start porpoising and might just help toss that canopy off. I know it's a
>>>stretch, but freaky things happen. I think the prevailing theory regarding
>>>Von Alexander's accident is that something pushed the stick forward and
>>>caused a negative g situation. I believe the canopy of his 8 was already
>>>off.
>>>
>>>Steve Zicree
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 47
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|
| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
I'm building a big Wile E. Coyote-style human slingshot to launch me
straight through the plexi. I ordered it from some company called ACME
Products.
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: <Kathleen@rv7.us>
Subject: RE: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> --> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us
>
> Well, I'm really glad I brought this subject up! For those of you who
> require apologies, I apologize. I think I have the answer. I'm working
on
> a forward-facing trap door under the seats. Pull a lever and the seats
and
> occupants just drop out the bottom. It couldn't be simpler, right?
>
> Wait! Wait! Please! Let's not start discussing the merits of this!
> I take it back!
> :-) :-))
>
> Kathleen Evans
> www.rv7.us
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn walters
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
>
> steve zicree wrote:
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
> >
> >Suppose the plane is broken and tumbling. Will it open then? Deep in a
> >stall? Many on the list have said the the parachute is worthless since
you
> >CAN'T get out.
> >
> Let me run this by y'all (since we're having so much fun with it): When
> it comes time to exit, canopy or not, you're going to be so shot full of
> adrenalin that NOTHING will stand in your way of getting out .... unless
> you're injured ..... and the adrenalin may just make injuries go away
> .... at least for the time being. Unhitch your safety belt and jam the
> stick forward (yeah, I know maybe that's the problem) and your 180 Lb
> (OK, I'm being nice is now ) is going to be over 1000 lbs. Think the
> canopy is going to stay there???
> Linn ..... knows about adrenalin
> do not archive
>
> > Well I say there are situations where you MIGHT be able to
> >get out and that's what matters. We had an airplane out here in Long
Beach,
> >CA a couple of years ago lose elevator control. The pilots were both
> >skydivers, and so they opted to go for a swim rather than try to fly
using
> >trim control. Now, with little or no elevator control, an aircraft might
> >start porpoising and might just help toss that canopy off. I know it's a
> >stretch, but freaky things happen. I think the prevailing theory
regarding
> >Von Alexander's accident is that something pushed the stick forward and
> >caused a negative g situation. I believe the canopy of his 8 was already
> >off.
> >
> >Steve Zicree
> >
>
>
Message 48
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|
| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
Now having said that I'll probably buy the Dynon and use the AOA
function from time to time.
linn walters wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
>
>
>I love it! :-D :-D :-D . ROFL!
>Linn
>do not archive
>
>
>Scott VanArtsdalen wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
>>
>>This is great! Please take this in the spirit it is intended. :-)
>>I've always heard you should try to roll inverted first so let's say I
>>do that. I roll the plane upside down, jam the stick forward (with no
>>seatbelt) and I'm forced up and out. I have these visions of the pop
>>rivets that hold my canopy hinge on letting go before the plastic does.
>>So now I'm hurtling earthward in a clear bathtub. Should I just stand
>>up in the tub, salute and pull my rip cord?
>>
>>Nuts! I don't even own a parachute! Now what?! :-D
>>
>>Nevermind I'll answer my own question. An old-timer (who had never
>>jettisoned his canopy and didn't have an AOA system, he used the door on
>>his Cub) once told me: "If the situation looks hopeless, drop your
>>drawers and sit on the stick. It won't help but it will sure get the
>>NTSB boys to scratching their heads."
>>
>>linn walters wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
>>>
>>>steve zicree wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>>>>
>>>>Suppose the plane is broken and tumbling. Will it open then? Deep in a
>>>>stall? Many on the list have said the the parachute is worthless since you
>>>>CAN'T get out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Let me run this by y'all (since we're having so much fun with it): When
>>>it comes time to exit, canopy or not, you're going to be so shot full of
>>>adrenalin that NOTHING will stand in your way of getting out .... unless
>>>you're injured ..... and the adrenalin may just make injuries go away
>>>.... at least for the time being. Unhitch your safety belt and jam the
>>>stick forward (yeah, I know maybe that's the problem) and your 180 Lb
>>>(OK, I'm being nice is now ) is going to be over 1000 lbs. Think the
>>>canopy is going to stay there???
>>>Linn ..... knows about adrenalin
>>>do not archive
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Well I say there are situations where you MIGHT be able to
>>>>get out and that's what matters. We had an airplane out here in Long Beach,
>>>>CA a couple of years ago lose elevator control. The pilots were both
>>>>skydivers, and so they opted to go for a swim rather than try to fly using
>>>>trim control. Now, with little or no elevator control, an aircraft might
>>>>start porpoising and might just help toss that canopy off. I know it's a
>>>>stretch, but freaky things happen. I think the prevailing theory regarding
>>>>Von Alexander's accident is that something pushed the stick forward and
>>>>caused a negative g situation. I believe the canopy of his 8 was already
>>>>off.
>>>>
>>>>Steve Zicree
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: prop flange oil leak |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Brian Kraut wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut@engalt.com>
>
>This is not really RV related, but I know there are a bunch of engine gurus
>on the list.
>
>My friend has a Lycoming engine with a fixed pitch prop and it is leaking
>oil on the front face of the prop. If I remember correctly there is a hole
>in the crankshaft and prop flange for when a constant speed prop is used. I
>believe that there is some type of plug or gasket that goes over this hole
>when a fixed pitch prop is used that keeps oil from leaking out and it is a
>simple matter of removing the prop and replacing it if it leaks. Am I
>correct on this?
>
>Brian Kraut
>Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
>www.engalt.com
>
Well, it may not need replacing, but just reseating. I'd try the
reseating first so jump to step 2. So, if that's where the oil is
coming from (and I suspect you're right and if step 2 doesn't work) you
need to order the plug (not a high $ item), and then remove the prop.
Step 1: Use a punch to put a hole in the middle of the plug (DON'T
DRILL IT!!!) and pop the plug out. It's just like an expansion (freeze)
plug in car engines. Step 2: When you install the new plug, get a
round piece of metal that will fit inside the crank and against the
plug. Make sure that it's flat on the end against the plug. Rap the
'seating tool' smartly with a fairly large hammer.
While the plug is out, clean the crank bore real good and check for
pits. I'm not sure, but there seems to be an AD out there addressing
the pits. The AD may not apply to your engine, but as long as you're in
there look anyway.
Linn
>
>
>
>
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: hand held radio |
--> RV-List message posted by: "William Davis" <rvpilot@access4less.net>
Evan,
I have a "like new" Icom IC-A23 that I would be willing to sell for $250.
It has the VOR feature plus the alkaline battery pack as well as the regular
Mi-MH battery The unit is about 1.5 yrs old but was used very little, mainly
as a back up in case my Comm. ever went out.
Regards, Bill Davis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan and Megan Johnson" <evmeg@snowcrest.net>
Subject: RV-List: hand held radio
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson"
<evmeg@snowcrest.net>
>
> Guys, I am in need of a portable (hand held) back up radio. The old radio
in my C-150 went south and I dont feel like replacing it. I am planning on
buying a new X-com or micro air for my RV 10 but I am not allowed to use
either in the Cessna. So I thought I would just invest now in a back up to
use until I am ready to buy for the RV. Just wondering what everybody else
is using and where the best deals are.
> Thanks a bunch....Evan
> www.evansaviationproducts.com
>
>
Message 51
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--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
Listers,
I asked a while back about the hand formed clevis at the handle end of the canopy
latch rods on the 4. Well, after making them I just couldn't accept their looks
and the function was less than perfect too. What I came up with was to replace
the .058 wall tubing with .083, which allowed me to tap them to 1/4-28.
I then attached some real nice little balljoints at the ends with studs that slip
right into the handle. I know it's a very small detail, but the ball joints
pivot nicely and it looks much better than smashing the ends flat. I now want
to finish the job by putting some sort of bullet shaped tip on the ends that
penetrate the bulkheads to replace the half-tapered tips called out in the plans.
I'm picturing something like the point on a target arrow, hopefully with
a 1/4-28 thread on it. It could also be JB Welded in if it has some sort of stud
on it. I'm hoping that someone will have a good idea of what I can use. Thanks
for the assist.
Steve Zicree
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
steve zicree wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
>Suppose the plane is broken and tumbling. Will it open then? Deep in a
>stall? Many on the list have said the the parachute is worthless since you
>CAN'T get out. Well I say there are situations where you MIGHT be able to
>get out and that's what matters. We had an airplane out here in Long Beach,
>CA a couple of years ago lose elevator control. The pilots were both
>skydivers, and so they opted to go for a swim rather than try to fly using
>trim control. Now, with little or no elevator control, an aircraft might
>start porpoising and might just help toss that canopy off. I know it's a
>stretch, but freaky things happen. I think the prevailing theory regarding
>Von Alexander's accident is that something pushed the stick forward and
>caused a negative g situation. I believe the canopy of his 8 was already
>off.
>
>Steve Zicree
>
>
>
Mind telling me why you think his canopy was already off? Also where did
the prevailing "theory" come from that
the stick was pushed forward?
Jerry
do not archive
Message 53
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| Subject: | Re: new guys questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <1qazxsw23edcvfr45tgbnhy67ujm@cox.net>
D. Wayne Stiles wrote:
>1) We are working in our local EAA chapter's unheated hangar (for now) the cold
seems to really mess up the rivit gun. Instead of driving the rivits it just
seems to suffer from a high pitched case of flatulance. We even borrowed another
RV-ers gun and got the same effect. Heating the gun with a lamp or a hair
dryer will help for a whle but when it cools off again the problem returns
>What causes this type of problem? What, short of heaitng the hangar, or moving
to project to another location might provide a solution?
>
>
>
Maybe a lighter oil or one that is designed for very cold temperatures
in the rivet gun would help. That's the sensible idea, here is the
slightly crazy one.
Get a small propane heater to heat the area where you are working, get a
coil of aluminum or copper tubing, copper is cheaper I think, and it
will easily hold the pressure. Put some fittings on the ends and hang
it between you and the heater. Plumb your air supply through the coil
to supply hot air to keep the rivet gun and your hands warm. Just make
sure you don't get it too close too the heater, those little heaters can
get stuff pretty dang hot if it is too close.
Chris W
Simplify gift giving this holiday season with the help of The Wish Zone.
Get the gifts you want and give the gifts they want.
http://thewishzone.com
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: new guys questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: plaurence@the-beach.net
On 13 Nov 2004 at 18:17, D. Wayne Stiles wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "D. Wayne Stiles"
> <dwstiles@hotmail.com>
>
> My buddy Jim and I are getting ready to start on his RV-7 kit. We
> working on the practice pieces right now and hope to get our
> confidence/proficiencylevel up to the point of starting the empenage
> soon. We have a couple of questions.
>
> 1) We are working in our local EAA chapter's unheated hangar (for now)
> the cold seems to really mess up the rivit gun. Instead of driving the
> rivits it just seems to suffer from a high pitched case of flatulance.
> We even borrowed another RV-ers gun and got the same effect. Heating
> the gun with a lamp or a hair dryer will help for a whle but when it
> cools off again the problem returns What causes this type of problem?
> What, short of heaitng the hangar, or moving to project to another
> location might provide a solution?
Sorry, Can't help here. Iive in Miami Florida
>
> 2) What is the current trend/thought regarding the re-drilling/match
> reaming of the prepunched holes?
Do It.
>
> 3) Re: priming (not primer) at what stage is the interior primer
> applied: before dimpling, reaming etc or after but prior to assembly.
Drill, debur holes and edges before dimpling.
Etch with Alumiprep 33 and use a chromic acid conversion such as Alodine which
is
made by Henkle Surface Technologies. ( 800 521 1355) or Iridite 14-2 made by
MacDermid. and distributed by Allied Plating (800 432 8692). Then use a milspec
two part epoxy primer (MIL-P-23377D type1, class1) such as Sterling or US Paint's
30-Y-94(314 621 0525)
This should take care of all nine types of aluminum corrosion.
Peter
>
>
> advertising on the Matronics Forums.
> >
>
>
>
Peter Laurence
RV9A wings
Message 55
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy latch |
--> RV-List message posted by: plaurence@the-beach.net
Steve
Do you have photos of this?
If so would you email them to me?
Peter
plaurence@the-beach.net
On 13 Nov 2004 at 18:32, steve zicree wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
> Listers,
>
> I asked a while back about the hand formed clevis at the handle end of
> the canopy latch rods on the 4. Well, after making them I just
> couldn't accept their looks and the function was less than perfect
> too. What I came up with was to replace the .058 wall tubing with
> .083, which allowed me to tap them to 1/4-28. I then attached some
> real nice little balljoints at the ends with studs that slip right
> into the handle. I know it's a very small detail, but the ball joints
> pivot nicely and it looks much better than smashing the ends flat. I
> now want to finish the job by putting some sort of bullet shaped tip
> on the ends that penetrate the bulkheads to replace the half-tapered
> tips called out in the plans. I'm picturing something like the point
> on a target arrow, hopefully with a 1/4-28 thread on it. It could also
> be JB Welded in if it has some sort of stud on it. I'm hoping that
> someone will have a good idea of what I can use. Thanks for the
> assist.
>
> Steve Zicree
>
>
> advertising on the Matronics Forums.
> >
>
>
>
Message 56
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
First off, note that I said I BELIEVE the canopy was off, and also that I
THINK that he was thrown from the plane. I came to these conclusions based
upon news reports, letters in mags, emails on this very list, and the NTSB
report. However, I believe I misspoke regarding the canopy. This accident
occurred a while ago and my recollection was flawed. Having refreshed my
memory of the accident and aircraft, I'd have to say that the canopy was
with the aircraft when it went down. I do feel though that the pilot was
probably ejected from the plane. Based on what I have read -- and that's all
I have -- I'm unable to believe that the situation, such as it was, would
have caused a man to voluntarily jump.
Having said all that, I in no way wish to imply that Mr. Alexander was
anything less than a talented builder and skilled pilot. I do recall reading
posts at the time of the accident from his Wife and Daughter, and my heart
still goes out to them. I sincerely hope that this discussion of his
accident causes no additional distress to them.
Sincerely,
Steve Zicree
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Springer" <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
>
> steve zicree wrote:
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
> >
> >Suppose the plane is broken and tumbling. Will it open then? Deep in a
> >stall? Many on the list have said the the parachute is worthless since
you
> >CAN'T get out. Well I say there are situations where you MIGHT be able to
> >get out and that's what matters. We had an airplane out here in Long
Beach,
> >CA a couple of years ago lose elevator control. The pilots were both
> >skydivers, and so they opted to go for a swim rather than try to fly
using
> >trim control. Now, with little or no elevator control, an aircraft might
> >start porpoising and might just help toss that canopy off. I know it's a
> >stretch, but freaky things happen. I think the prevailing theory
regarding
> >Von Alexander's accident is that something pushed the stick forward and
> >caused a negative g situation. I believe the canopy of his 8 was already
> >off.
> >
> >Steve Zicree
> >
> >
> >
> Mind telling me why you think his canopy was already off? Also where did
> the prevailing "theory" come from that
> the stick was pushed forward?
>
> Jerry
> do not archive
>
>
Message 57
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 11/13/2004 9:20:40 AM Central Standard Time,
sbuc@hiwaay.net writes:
As one who has personal experience with how difficult it can be to
handle an open canopy in flight, it is my contention that wearing a
parachute in a tip-up RV-6, 7, 9 is an exercise in futility.
>>>>>>>>>>
Quoting (I think) someone who should know:
If an airplane is still in one piece, don't cheat on it; ride the bastard
down. (Ernest K. Gann, author & aviator)
If I build one that will kill me, so be it. If I build one that "can" kill
me, I'll be damned if I'll let it happen as long as I'm not bits of carcass
amidst the mangled aluminum...........
Y'all get over it- build it right, fly it right & tell yer ggkids about it!
Mark do not archive
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Message 58
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy latch |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
They're on the way
----- Original Message -----
From: <plaurence@the-beach.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy latch
> --> RV-List message posted by: plaurence@the-beach.net
>
> Steve
> Do you have photos of this?
>
> If so would you email them to me?
>
>
> Peter
> plaurence@the-beach.net
>
>
> On 13 Nov 2004 at 18:32, steve zicree wrote:
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
> >
> > Listers,
> >
> > I asked a while back about the hand formed clevis at the handle end of
> > the canopy latch rods on the 4. Well, after making them I just
> > couldn't accept their looks and the function was less than perfect
> > too. What I came up with was to replace the .058 wall tubing with
> > .083, which allowed me to tap them to 1/4-28. I then attached some
> > real nice little balljoints at the ends with studs that slip right
> > into the handle. I know it's a very small detail, but the ball joints
> > pivot nicely and it looks much better than smashing the ends flat. I
> > now want to finish the job by putting some sort of bullet shaped tip
> > on the ends that penetrate the bulkheads to replace the half-tapered
> > tips called out in the plans. I'm picturing something like the point
> > on a target arrow, hopefully with a 1/4-28 thread on it. It could also
> > be JB Welded in if it has some sort of stud on it. I'm hoping that
> > someone will have a good idea of what I can use. Thanks for the
> > assist.
> >
> > Steve Zicree
> >
> >
> > advertising on the Matronics Forums.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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Message 59
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 11/13/2004 2:40:24 PM Central Standard Time,
Larry@bowenaero.com writes:
It's on my list of things to do. I've spun a C172 and a Decathalon. Is it
more of the same, just quicker to accelerate when pointed down? Or is there
more to it?
>>>>
Never done it & in no hurry to find out. Van advises against it, at least
more than 3 (I think) although I've seen some pretty darn cool videos of some
dude in a -4 going round&round at least about a dozen times or more, IIRC.
Personally, spinning my -6A is way down on my list of things to do, way below
loops and split-Ss- especially when close to terra firma- I just don't understand
why anyone would intentionally do this? Don't give me that "accident" crap-
you ARE flying the airplane, aren't you? To me it's just like the drug thing-
JUST SAY NO (unless under expert supervision by a consenting adult!)
C'mon, folks- ya got yer throttle in one hand and yer stick in the other- why
toss your precious RV into the ground? To get a Darwin award maybe?
Mark - do not archive
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Message 60
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| Subject: | Miscellaneous stuff for donation |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Don Mack" <don@dmack.net>
I have several items I have laying around that I will never use:
3 pairs of stainless steel shields for protecting grommets in firewall. Size
1" x 1/4" - Van's price is $7.50 a pair. Van's part number SSFS-1X1/4H
1 cable for Carb Heat, Cabin Heat, etc. - Black knob - Vans price is
$24.30 - Van's part number CT A-740 BLACK
2 Camlocks used on oil door
1.5" aluminum flange for ducting - Aircraft Spruce price $6.20
3 Pairs of Headset/mic jacks
I don't want $ for them. I will mail them to you for free (within the U.S).
Just make a donation to the Matronics November fundraiser -
http://www.matronics.com/contribution/
Contact me directly if you are interested in any of this stuff.
Don Mack
don@dmack.net
www.dmack.net
_-=====================================================================
_-_-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
_-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
_-_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the
_-= Contribution link below to find out more about this
_-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the
_-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com!
_-_-= List Contribution Web Site
_-_-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_-_-= Thank you for your generous support!
_-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
_-_-=====================================================================
_-= - The RV-List Email Forum -
_-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions
_-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other
_-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
_-=====================================================================
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_-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com
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_-=====================================================================
Message 61
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
Mark,
I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
deal you think it is. Keep in mind that most good aerobatics courses start
with spins because botched manuevers can easily turn into spins. In fact,
the first time my highly skilled instructor demonstrated an immelman he
accidentally spun us. It is kind of spooky the first time, but confidence
building as well. At any rate, if you plan on doing loops and such, get some
spin training in something first. Not to harp on it, but a split-s can be a
dangerous trick if you get things wrong. The potential for overspeed is
great. Again, they're no big thing with the proper training.
Steve Zicree
planes are fun
----- Original Message -----
From: <Fiveonepw@aol.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
> --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 11/13/2004 2:40:24 PM Central Standard Time,
> Larry@bowenaero.com writes:
> It's on my list of things to do. I've spun a C172 and a Decathalon. Is
it
> more of the same, just quicker to accelerate when pointed down? Or is
there
> more to it?
> >>>>
>
> Never done it & in no hurry to find out. Van advises against it, at least
> more than 3 (I think) although I've seen some pretty darn cool videos of
some
> dude in a -4 going round&round at least about a dozen times or more, IIRC.
> Personally, spinning my -6A is way down on my list of things to do, way
below
> loops and split-Ss- especially when close to terra firma- I just don't
understand
> why anyone would intentionally do this? Don't give me that "accident"
crap-
> you ARE flying the airplane, aren't you? To me it's just like the drug
thing-
> JUST SAY NO (unless under expert supervision by a consenting adult!)
>
> C'mon, folks- ya got yer throttle in one hand and yer stick in the other-
why
> toss your precious RV into the ground? To get a Darwin award maybe?
>
> Mark - do not archive
>
>
> _-=====================================================================
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> _-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> _-> _-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the
> _-= Contribution link below to find out more about this
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> _-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com!
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> _-> _-=====================================================================
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>
>
_-=====================================================================
_-_-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
_-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
_-_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the
_-= Contribution link below to find out more about this
_-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the
_-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com!
_-_-= List Contribution Web Site
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_-_-= Thank you for your generous support!
_-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
_-_-=====================================================================
_-= - The RV-List Email Forum -
_-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions
_-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other
_-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
_-=====================================================================
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_-=====================================================================
Message 62
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
steve zicree wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
> Mark,
> I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
> deal you think it is.
<snip>
I read of a competent pilot who after spinning the RV-3 and RV-4, was
spooked enough by the spin characteristics of the RV-6 that he decided
to let a professional test pilot complete the spin testing. To his
credit, the pilot's ego didn't interfere with his common sense and
survival instinct and prevent him from turning over the spin testing to
another pilot.......even though he was the designer of the RV-6.
Yep, Van Hisself has written that the spin characteristics of the RV-6
are, if memory serves me he used the word, "disconcerting" for a pilot
not highly schooled in spins in short-winged airplanes. Apparently the
plane winds up very quickly and the rotation is far quicker and the
attitude of the plane much more nose-down than a pilot trained in C152
spins would expect.
I suspect it would enhance a poster's credibility if he/she had actual
RV flight time before making pronouncements on spin characteristics of
planes that the poster has never flown. RV flight experience would
probably also make a difference in how statements concerning jettisoning
RV canopies are received as well. :-)
Sam Buchanan (never spun my RV-6 in 606 hrs, and hope I never do!)
_-=====================================================================
_-_-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
_-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
_-_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the
_-= Contribution link below to find out more about this
_-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the
_-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com!
_-_-= List Contribution Web Site
_-_-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_-_-= Thank you for your generous support!
_-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
_-_-=====================================================================
_-= - The RV-List Email Forum -
_-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions
_-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other
_-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
_-=====================================================================
_-= List Related Information
_-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com
_-= UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription
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_-=====================================================================
Message 63
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| Subject: | Re: Miscellaneous stuff for donation |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
Don,
I sure could use the camlocks and the 1.5 alum flange.
Don Mack wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Don Mack" <don@dmack.net>
>
>I have several items I have laying around that I will never use:
>
>3 pairs of stainless steel shields for protecting grommets in firewall. Size
>1" x 1/4" - Van's price is $7.50 a pair. Van's part number SSFS-1X1/4H
>
>1 cable for Carb Heat, Cabin Heat, etc. - Black knob - Vans price is
>$24.30 - Van's part number CT A-740 BLACK
>
>2 Camlocks used on oil door
>
>1.5" aluminum flange for ducting - Aircraft Spruce price $6.20
>
>3 Pairs of Headset/mic jacks
>
>I don't want $ for them. I will mail them to you for free (within the U.S).
>Just make a donation to the Matronics November fundraiser -
>http://www.matronics.com/contribution/
>
>Contact me directly if you are interested in any of this stuff.
>
>Don Mack
>don@dmack.net
>www.dmack.net
>
>
>_-=====================================================================
>_->_-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
>_-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
>_->_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the
>_-= Contribution link below to find out more about this
>_-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the
>_-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com!
>_->_-= List Contribution Web Site
>_->_-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>_->_-= Thank you for your generous support!
>_-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>_->_-=====================================================================
>_-= - The RV-List Email Forum -
>_-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions
>_-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other
>_-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
>_-=====================================================================
>_-= List Related Information
>_-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com
>_-= UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription
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>_-=====================================================================
>
>
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
_-=====================================================================
_-_-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
_-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
_-_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the
_-= Contribution link below to find out more about this
_-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the
_-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com!
_-_-= List Contribution Web Site
_-_-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_-_-= Thank you for your generous support!
_-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
_-_-=====================================================================
_-= - The RV-List Email Forum -
_-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions
_-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other
_-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
_-=====================================================================
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_-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com
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_-=====================================================================
Message 64
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
I can sure believe this. When I did my transition training with Mike
Seager in the RV-6 the few stalls we did were pretty disconcerting for
this Airknocker pilot. I was accustomed to holding my Champ in a stall
and just walking it down with rudders. The first stall I did in the 6
felt like the world was just dropping out from under me. Then I lowered
the nose and tried to bring it back up again like I would in the Champ
to start flying again but there was an even more abrupt stall right
after the first. Mike just sat there with his hands folded neatly in
his lap and calmly said, "OK, now that's a secondary stall, let's try to
avoid a third."
Anyway this had me really rattled for doing the first stalls in my
RV-4. But the 4 stalls very differently from the 6. Not the dramatic
drop you get in the 6. Well... I considered it a pretty dramatic drop
anyway.
I guess the point is, don't generalize these airplanes. Each model has
it's own peculiar handling charactaristics. Be familiar with them. I
wouldn't spin a 6 just to be familiar with it's spin charactaristics.
I'd research it and figure out how to avoid them. I've researched
enough to know that spins are safely doable in an RV-4. Not safe with a
passenger in the back. Not safe with me doing them because I've NEVER
spun an airplane. Probably never will.
Remember, we build 'em, we test 'em, we fly 'em. Do all three as safely
as you can within your personal capabilities, and the capabilities of
your airplane.
Sam Buchanan wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>
>steve zicree wrote:
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>>
>>Mark,
>>I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
>>deal you think it is.
>>
>>
><snip>
>
>I read of a competent pilot who after spinning the RV-3 and RV-4, was
>spooked enough by the spin characteristics of the RV-6 that he decided
>to let a professional test pilot complete the spin testing. To his
>credit, the pilot's ego didn't interfere with his common sense and
>survival instinct and prevent him from turning over the spin testing to
>another pilot.......even though he was the designer of the RV-6.
>
>Yep, Van Hisself has written that the spin characteristics of the RV-6
>are, if memory serves me he used the word, "disconcerting" for a pilot
>not highly schooled in spins in short-winged airplanes. Apparently the
>plane winds up very quickly and the rotation is far quicker and the
>attitude of the plane much more nose-down than a pilot trained in C152
>spins would expect.
>
>I suspect it would enhance a poster's credibility if he/she had actual
>RV flight time before making pronouncements on spin characteristics of
>planes that the poster has never flown. RV flight experience would
>probably also make a difference in how statements concerning jettisoning
>RV canopies are received as well. :-)
>
>Sam Buchanan (never spun my RV-6 in 606 hrs, and hope I never do!)
>
>
>_-=====================================================================
>_->_-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
>_-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
>_->_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the
>_-= Contribution link below to find out more about this
>_-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the
>_-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com!
>_->_-= List Contribution Web Site
>_->_-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>_->_-= Thank you for your generous support!
>_-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>_->_-=====================================================================
>_-= - The RV-List Email Forum -
>_-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions
>_-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other
>_-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
>_-=====================================================================
>_-= List Related Information
>_-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com
>_-= UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription
>_-= List FAQ: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm
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>_-= Trouble Report http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report
>_-= Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>_-=====================================================================
>
>
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
_-=====================================================================
_-_-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
_-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
_-_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the
_-= Contribution link below to find out more about this
_-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the
_-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com!
_-_-= List Contribution Web Site
_-_-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_-_-= Thank you for your generous support!
_-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
_-_-=====================================================================
_-= - The RV-List Email Forum -
_-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions
_-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other
_-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
_-=====================================================================
_-= List Related Information
_-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com
_-= UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription
_-= List FAQ: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm
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_-= Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_-=====================================================================
Message 65
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|
| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
Sam Buchanan wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>
>steve zicree wrote:
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>>
>>Mark,
>>I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
>>deal you think it is.
>>
>>
><snip>
>
>I read of a competent pilot who after spinning the RV-3 and RV-4, was
>spooked enough by the spin characteristics of the RV-6 that he decided
>to let a professional test pilot complete the spin testing. To his
>credit, the pilot's ego didn't interfere with his common sense and
>survival instinct and prevent him from turning over the spin testing to
>another pilot.......even though he was the designer of the RV-6.
>
>Yep, Van Hisself has written that the spin characteristics of the RV-6
>are, if memory serves me he used the word, "disconcerting" for a pilot
>not highly schooled in spins in short-winged airplanes. Apparently the
>plane winds up very quickly and the rotation is far quicker and the
>attitude of the plane much more nose-down than a pilot trained in C152
>spins would expect.
>
>I suspect it would enhance a poster's credibility if he/she had actual
>RV flight time before making pronouncements on spin characteristics of
>planes that the poster has never flown. RV flight experience would
>probably also make a difference in how statements concerning jettisoning
>RV canopies are received as well. :-)
>
>Sam Buchanan (never spun my RV-6 in 606 hrs, and hope I never do!)
>
>
>
>
You took the words right off of my keyboard Sam, :-) When I made the
first flight on my RV-6 I called
Van and told him about it and in the conversation he said "don't spin it
if you don't have to." I have never
had a reason to spin my -6 so haven't. Before someone thinks I am not
qualified to spin an aircraft I have
done hundreds of spins with each and every one of my students, each one
knows how to recover from a
spin before I solo them. I am a firm believer in spin/stall recognition.
The best way to learn spin recognition
and spin recovery is to do them. I know many people have and do spin
their -6 but I just haven't done more
than maybe 1/4 to 1/2 turn. I have done a lot of aerobatics in my -6,
and not all perfect, but still have not got
into an unintentional spin in the almost 16 year of flying it.
Jerry Springer
do not archive
_-=====================================================================
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Message 66
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
Shucks Mark, you should have let that one leak into the archives. I
couldn't agree more.
Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
>
>Quoting (I think) someone who should know:
>
>If an airplane is still in one piece, don't cheat on it; ride the bastard
>down. (Ernest K. Gann, author & aviator)
>
>If I build one that will kill me, so be it. If I build one that "can" kill
>me, I'll be damned if I'll let it happen as long as I'm not bits of carcass
>amidst the mangled aluminum...........
>
>Y'all get over it- build it right, fly it right & tell yer ggkids about it!
>
>Mark do not archive
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
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Message 67
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
Holy crap, what is your problem? Read the post I was responding to a bit
more carefully. You've got a pilot talking about doing split-s's and loops
in an aircraft that they're terrified of spinning!?! Does this really make
sense to you? Can a botched loop turn into a spin? A split-s? Did I say that
the plane spins well? Did I say he should rush out and see? I simply
suggested that a spin in a 6 was probably not the end of the world and that
aerobatics should not be done without adequate spin recovery training in
SOMETHING. I've made it clear that I've no experience in RV's, but I know
enough to know that aerobatics without solid spin recovery capability is
about as dumb as it gets. As for the canopy thing, I'll give in to your
all-knowing-ness: I hereby declare that it is impossible for a tip-up canopy
to be jetissoned in any flight regime by anyone or anything, and that nobody
will ever find a way to do so. I further promise to cease any investigation
into said problem until I have accumulated sufficient RV flight time as
determined by the elders of the RV list or 606 hrs, whichever comes first.
Steve Zicree
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
> --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>
> steve zicree wrote:
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
> >
> > Mark,
> > I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
> > deal you think it is.
> <snip>
>
> I read of a competent pilot who after spinning the RV-3 and RV-4, was
> spooked enough by the spin characteristics of the RV-6 that he decided
> to let a professional test pilot complete the spin testing. To his
> credit, the pilot's ego didn't interfere with his common sense and
> survival instinct and prevent him from turning over the spin testing to
> another pilot.......even though he was the designer of the RV-6.
>
> Yep, Van Hisself has written that the spin characteristics of the RV-6
> are, if memory serves me he used the word, "disconcerting" for a pilot
> not highly schooled in spins in short-winged airplanes. Apparently the
> plane winds up very quickly and the rotation is far quicker and the
> attitude of the plane much more nose-down than a pilot trained in C152
> spins would expect.
>
> I suspect it would enhance a poster's credibility if he/she had actual
> RV flight time before making pronouncements on spin characteristics of
> planes that the poster has never flown. RV flight experience would
> probably also make a difference in how statements concerning jettisoning
> RV canopies are received as well. :-)
>
> Sam Buchanan (never spun my RV-6 in 606 hrs, and hope I never do!)
>
>
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Message 68
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
Oh, and one more thing. When you excerpt my post, at least do me the
courtesy of not intentionally deleting context in order to strengthen your
position.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
> --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>
> steve zicree wrote:
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
> >
> > Mark,
> > I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
> > deal you think it is.
> <snip>
>
> I read of a competent pilot who after spinning the RV-3 and RV-4, was
> spooked enough by the spin characteristics of the RV-6 that he decided
> to let a professional test pilot complete the spin testing. To his
> credit, the pilot's ego didn't interfere with his common sense and
> survival instinct and prevent him from turning over the spin testing to
> another pilot.......even though he was the designer of the RV-6.
>
> Yep, Van Hisself has written that the spin characteristics of the RV-6
> are, if memory serves me he used the word, "disconcerting" for a pilot
> not highly schooled in spins in short-winged airplanes. Apparently the
> plane winds up very quickly and the rotation is far quicker and the
> attitude of the plane much more nose-down than a pilot trained in C152
> spins would expect.
>
> I suspect it would enhance a poster's credibility if he/she had actual
> RV flight time before making pronouncements on spin characteristics of
> planes that the poster has never flown. RV flight experience would
> probably also make a difference in how statements concerning jettisoning
> RV canopies are received as well. :-)
>
> Sam Buchanan (never spun my RV-6 in 606 hrs, and hope I never do!)
>
>
> _-=====================================================================
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Message 69
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Scott Jackson" <jayeandscott@telus.net>
Here I'll have to meekly raise my hand as one who intentionally spun his
newly-minted RV-6, not just once, but about a dozen times in one flight.
I did wear my 'chute, thinking I could get out if I had to, and had emptied
the inside of absolutely everything-not even the passenger seat cushions
were in.
Having previously done-and very much enjoyed-countless spins in a clip-wing
Cub and single-seat Pitts, I was still surprized by the sharpness of the
spin entry of the -6. The ground does indeed go around much faster and the
nose appears to be almost straight down; for the first couple of spins the
only part of the world that wasn't a blur was a tiny piece of the earth
directly in front of the spinner, until I adjusted to the rotation rate.
I also found that it took full back stick to keep it spinning, any release
of back pressure immediately brought the "G" on with a vengeance as it
switched to a spiral dive, although it kept going around at that
disconcerting rate. I was intentionally at a pretty forward cofg with light
fuel and emtpy baggage, while solo to enhance the recovery.
I had read about spin and spin recovery in my builders' manual ahead of
time, and this was just another part of opening the envelope up during the
testing period, I thought. I wasn't aware that actually spinning -6's is
kinda' rare, which I'm gathering from this thread.
Based on the advice in the manual, I did not let any of the spins get beyond
two turns. I wasn't able to stop it spinning exactly on the lines I wanted
in only a handful of them, as the time to respond to spin-recovery control
inputs seemed a little unpredictable.
Scott in Vancouver
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
> --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>
> steve zicree wrote:
>> --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>>
>> Mark,
>> I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
>> deal you think it is.
> <snip>
>
> I read of a competent pilot who after spinning the RV-3 and RV-4, was
> spooked enough by the spin characteristics of the RV-6 that he decided
> to let a professional test pilot complete the spin testing. To his
> credit, the pilot's ego didn't interfere with his common sense and
> survival instinct and prevent him from turning over the spin testing to
> another pilot.......even though he was the designer of the RV-6.
>
> Yep, Van Hisself has written that the spin characteristics of the RV-6
> are, if memory serves me he used the word, "disconcerting" for a pilot
> not highly schooled in spins in short-winged airplanes. Apparently the
> plane winds up very quickly and the rotation is far quicker and the
> attitude of the plane much more nose-down than a pilot trained in C152
> spins would expect.
>
> I suspect it would enhance a poster's credibility if he/she had actual
> RV flight time before making pronouncements on spin characteristics of
> planes that the poster has never flown. RV flight experience would
> probably also make a difference in how statements concerning jettisoning
> RV canopies are received as well. :-)
>
> Sam Buchanan (never spun my RV-6 in 606 hrs, and hope I never do!)
>
>
> _-=====================================================================
> _-> _-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
> _-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> _-> _-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the
> _-= Contribution link below to find out more about this
> _-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the
> _-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com!
> _-> _-= List Contribution Web Site
> _-> _-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> _-> _-= Thank you for your generous support!
> _-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> _-> _-=====================================================================
> _-= - The RV-List Email Forum -
> _-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions
> _-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other
> _-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
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>
>
>
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