Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:03 AM - Re: Re: SNF Changes (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
2. 05:35 AM - Re: engine baffle safety wire (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
3. 06:16 AM - RV-7 rear deck question (Charlie England)
4. 06:17 AM - Re: engine baffle safety wire (Steve Struyk)
5. 06:26 AM - Re: SNF Changes (SCOTT SPENCER)
6. 06:34 AM - Re: RV-7 rear deck question (Bob Collins)
7. 07:29 AM - Re: engine baffle safety wire (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
8. 08:57 AM - Intake Tubes... (Bill VonDane)
9. 09:49 AM - engine baffle safety wire (George Inman 204 287 8334)
10. 11:38 AM - Kitplanes attack (Brian Meyette)
11. 12:00 PM - Re: Kitplanes attack (Ralph E. Capen)
12. 12:27 PM - Re: Kitplanes attack (Mitchell Goodrich)
13. 12:37 PM - Re: Kitplanes attack (Phil Birkelbach)
14. 12:50 PM - Re: Kitplanes attack (Ron Lee)
15. 01:03 PM - Re: Kitplanes attack (linn Walters)
16. 01:14 PM - Re: Kitplanes attack (Chuck Jensen)
17. 01:34 PM - Re: Kitplanes attack (Brian Meyette)
18. 01:40 PM - Re: Kitplanes attack (noel anderson)
19. 01:48 PM - Re: Kitplanes attack (Brian Meyette)
20. 03:15 PM - Re: Kitplanes attack (SteinAir, Inc.)
21. 05:02 PM - Re: RV-7 rear deck question (LarryRobertHelming)
22. 05:09 PM - Re: Re: SNF Changes (LarryRobertHelming)
23. 05:26 PM - Re: RV-7 rear deck question (Bob Collins)
24. 06:10 PM - Re: Re: SNF Changes (Jeff Point)
25. 06:18 PM - Looking for Aus. based Epenage kit for sale (brantwinter)
26. 06:21 PM - Re: RV-7 rear deck question (Charlie England)
27. 06:37 PM - Re: RV-7 rear deck question (Dan Checkoway)
28. 06:45 PM - Riveting curved skin surface (dmaib@mac.com)
29. 06:55 PM - Re: RV-7 rear deck question (Bob Collins)
30. 06:58 PM - Re: Re: SNF Changes (Bob Collins)
31. 07:19 PM - Re On Making Choices (Vanremog@aol.com)
32. 07:20 PM - Re: Kitplanes attack (Kelly McMullen)
33. 07:40 PM - Re: Re: SNF Changes (Jeff Point)
34. 09:23 PM - Re: RV-7 rear deck question (Don Hall)
35. 10:24 PM - Re: Kitplanes attack (Ed Holyoke)
36. 11:00 PM - aluminum (Wheeler North)
37. 11:20 PM - cylinder baffles (Wheeler North)
38. 11:33 PM - Re: Kitplanes attack (Chris W)
Message 1
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I would think a large sign posted at each entrance saying something like
"READ BEFORE ENTERING: These aircraft are the expensive children of their owners
who have lovingly devoted many years to their construction and can easily be
damaged by mishandling- PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH THEM!" may help, but I think the
most insidious practice is S&Fs habit of stuffing the more popular models (RVs)
into a small area nose&tail with inches between wingtips. I've seen numerous
instances of folks oohing&aahing one plane and backing into the one packed
tightly against it, banging backpacks into planes trying to squeeze between them
etc. Particularly frustrating when you see the acres of open ground at LAL
where these planes could easily be parked...
Mark- RV-6A N51PW do not archive
http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: engine baffle safety wire |
In a message dated 12/28/2006 9:34:14 PM Central Standard Time,
phil@petrasoft.net writes:
Yep, that's the ticket. Simple and effective but Dan forgot his own
hint about using small washers on each end of the safety wire to keep
the wire from pulling through the aluminum baffles.
>>>
I riveted "doublers" (maybe .040 or .063?) the same size as the tabs on the
ends of the baffles before drilling the holes for the safety wire- no
significant wear from safety wire so far (375 hrs) but would be hard to do with
baffles
already installed...
Mark
Message 3
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| Subject: | RV-7 rear deck question |
I'm about to rivet the rear deck to the longerons on my -7 fuselage.
The instructions don't mention whether to install the various
shims/spacers that go between the bulkheads & the rear deck. Have
y'all been placing these as you install the read deck, or waiting
until the tail goes on & sliding them in, hoping that they are aligned
correctly?
Thanks,
Charlie
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: engine baffle safety wire |
I'll throw my two cents worth in on this on.
I used the twisted safety wire inside the tubing as some have mentioned and
attached the wire to the reinforced tabs with a cotter pin bent like a "T".
The wires attach to the eyes of the cotter pins at each end. I put a washer
under the cotter pin "legs" to protect from chafing the tabs. I just
finished my first annual and they look like new.
I can send a picture (1000 words?) to anyone wanting one off list.
Steve Struyk
RV-8, 75 hours.
St. Charles, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 11:30 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: engine baffle safety wire
>
> I believe the plans for the baffle show a fairly heavy aluminum doubler at
> those tabs. I think I used 1/8" stock.
>
> Terry
>
>
>
>>From: G McNutt <gmcnutt@shaw.ca>
>
>>Wire will eventually cut through the baffle tabs. George in Langley BC
>>
>
> George, nice fix. However, Tom if you do want to go with the safety wire,
> use a washer on the outside of the tab. This will add more meat than just
> the tab and address the issue of the safety wire cutting through the tab.
>
> Dana Overall
> Richmond, KY i39
> RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic"
> O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4
> http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg
> http://rvflying.tripod.com
> do not archive
>
>
>
Message 5
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Both bad and good to this -like OSH. Be nice though if they passed on the additional
gate revenue to the pilots who pay $100's or even $1000's to bring their
planes there. They are, after all making their money from our being there.
Scott
N4ZW
Message 6
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| Subject: | RV-7 rear deck question |
I put them on when I intalled the rear deck.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 8:15 AM
Subject: RV-List: RV-7 rear deck question
I'm about to rivet the rear deck to the longerons on my -7 fuselage.
The instructions don't mention whether to install the various shims/spacers
that go between the bulkheads & the rear deck. Have y'all been placing these
as you install the read deck, or waiting until the tail goes on & sliding
them in, hoping that they are aligned correctly?
Thanks,
Charlie
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: engine baffle safety wire |
You guys are all paranoid! (Come on, its a joke!) Just wire 'em up and get
the thing flying. Mine has been flying 2 years now and I can't see where the
safety wire has cut into the baffle at all. When it does, I'll fix it. As
for the oil return lines, I think I just bent them up or down a little to clear
the wires.
Dan Hopper
RV-7A about 200 hours
Message 8
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Anyone have the intake tubes for an O320 handy that can tell me how long
they are?
Thanks!
-Bill
www.rv8a.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | engine baffle safety wire |
My engine baffles were installed long ago, but I never put in the
safety wire on the underside of the cylinders that is supposed to pull
the lower ends of the baffles tight around the cooling fins. I just
stretched a string across there today and it is clear that the safety
wire would rub against one of the oil return lines. It's the same story
on both sides of the engine.
I guess I could extend the little flange of the baffle to reposition
the safety wire attach point lower, or I could rivet a little bracket of
some sort to the to the intercylinder baffle to push the wire down.
(Come to think of it, it would probably wear through anything I put there.)
Does any one have a tried and true solution to this problem? Or am I
missing something here?
--
Tom S., RV-6A, wiring
I had the same problem and replaced two of the aluminum tube
lines,to make room for the wires that hold the baffle
George H. Inman
ghinman@mts.net
Message 10
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| Subject: | Kitplanes attack |
I got an email this morning from a Phil Penny at Belvoir Media Group,
claiming that Kitplanes magazine owns the homebuilt plane vendor directory
spreadsheet I created this fall from various sources, mainly the Internet.
He claims it's theirs because I used similar codes as they did in their
"pay-per-view" directory, like "wf" for wood & fabric, "m" for metal, etc. I
guess he thought I should have used "Z" for metal and "QP" for wood &
fabric. He also objected to the fact that my directory has data similar to
theirs. Well, I hope it's similar; otherwise someone has incorrect data; a
plane's wingspan, for example, is a rather fixed value.
It's bad enough that these people are so cheap they even charge subscribers
to view things on their web page, but this really takes the cake.
Phil threatened to sue me if I don't take it down, and I told Phil it wasn't
theirs or copied from theirs, and I won't be taking it down. So, now he's
"referring this to our legal counsel". Apparently, there is no limit to
their greed.
If anyone wants a copy of it, I suggest getting it now. Also, several people
have given me updated info to put into it, so if you know of any incorrect
or missing data, please let me know, and I will update it with that info.
I'm only on a couple lists, but if you're on other homebuilder lists, you
might want to forward this URL to other lists you are on, so more people can
access the directory while it's still available (just in case they are
successful if getting it removed).
I put a lot of work into this, as a resource that we can all keep up to date
and share. It's a shame there are people and companies like this out there
to harass people who are trying to do something decent for everyone.
The directory is at
http://brian76.mystarband.net/misc.htm#directory
--
8:22 AM
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes attack |
If you have some of your original sources - and they're not from Belvoir Media
Group - you should be able to win.
Meanwhile, sounds like another JPI gorilla is loose!
-----Original Message-----
>From: Brian Meyette <brianpublic2@starband.net>
>Sent: Dec 29, 2006 2:36 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Kitplanes attack
>
>
>I got an email this morning from a Phil Penny at Belvoir Media Group,
>claiming that Kitplanes magazine owns the homebuilt plane vendor directory
>spreadsheet I created this fall from various sources, mainly the Internet.
>He claims it's theirs because I used similar codes as they did in their
>"pay-per-view" directory, like "wf" for wood & fabric, "m" for metal, etc. I
>guess he thought I should have used "Z" for metal and "QP" for wood &
>fabric. He also objected to the fact that my directory has data similar to
>theirs. Well, I hope it's similar; otherwise someone has incorrect data; a
>plane's wingspan, for example, is a rather fixed value.
>
>It's bad enough that these people are so cheap they even charge subscribers
>to view things on their web page, but this really takes the cake.
>
>Phil threatened to sue me if I don't take it down, and I told Phil it wasn't
>theirs or copied from theirs, and I won't be taking it down. So, now he's
>"referring this to our legal counsel". Apparently, there is no limit to
>their greed.
>
>If anyone wants a copy of it, I suggest getting it now. Also, several people
>have given me updated info to put into it, so if you know of any incorrect
>or missing data, please let me know, and I will update it with that info.
>
>I'm only on a couple lists, but if you're on other homebuilder lists, you
>might want to forward this URL to other lists you are on, so more people can
>access the directory while it's still available (just in case they are
>successful if getting it removed).
>
>I put a lot of work into this, as a resource that we can all keep up to date
>and share. It's a shame there are people and companies like this out there
>to harass people who are trying to do something decent for everyone.
>
>The directory is at
>
>http://brian76.mystarband.net/misc.htm#directory
>
>
>--
>8:22 AM
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Kitplanes attack |
Brian,
guess its time for alittle letter writing from the homebuilt community to
Kit Planes.
Do you have any emial links for us??
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Meyette
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 2:37 PM
Subject: RV-List: Kitplanes attack
I got an email this morning from a Phil Penny at Belvoir Media Group,
claiming that Kitplanes magazine owns the homebuilt plane vendor directory
spreadsheet I created this fall from various sources, mainly the Internet.
He claims it's theirs because I used similar codes as they did in their
"pay-per-view" directory, like "wf" for wood & fabric, "m" for metal, etc. I
guess he thought I should have used "Z" for metal and "QP" for wood &
fabric. He also objected to the fact that my directory has data similar to
theirs. Well, I hope it's similar; otherwise someone has incorrect data; a
plane's wingspan, for example, is a rather fixed value.
It's bad enough that these people are so cheap they even charge subscribers
to view things on their web page, but this really takes the cake.
Phil threatened to sue me if I don't take it down, and I told Phil it wasn't
theirs or copied from theirs, and I won't be taking it down. So, now he's
"referring this to our legal counsel". Apparently, there is no limit to
their greed.
If anyone wants a copy of it, I suggest getting it now. Also, several people
have given me updated info to put into it, so if you know of any incorrect
or missing data, please let me know, and I will update it with that info.
I'm only on a couple lists, but if you're on other homebuilder lists, you
might want to forward this URL to other lists you are on, so more people can
access the directory while it's still available (just in case they are
successful if getting it removed).
I put a lot of work into this, as a resource that we can all keep up to date
and share. It's a shame there are people and companies like this out there
to harass people who are trying to do something decent for everyone.
The directory is at
http://brian76.mystarband.net/misc.htm#directory
--
8:22 AM
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes attack |
I did some studying years ago on copyrighting data like this. Basically
you can't copyright a fact. IOW you can't copyright the material
properties of lead. You can copyright 'collections' of facts. So a
table listing the material properties of lead, arsenic and gold would be
copyrightable (is that a word?).
I bet that it'd be awful hard for Kitplanes to win a suit like that but
the big boys tend to get away with these attacks because they have the
lawyers on stand by and you'll find it not worth the effort. I would
hope that the other members of this community would stand behind you and
give you a hand. Let us know if they actually follow through on the threat.
I canceled my subscription to Kitplanes years ago because I simply found
that the value ratio was off. There's less advertising and better
content in Sport Aviation and I get that one for free.
DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT A LAWYER, NOR DID I SLEEP IN A HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS
LAST NIGHT.
Do Not Archive
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB
http://www.myrv7.com
Brian Meyette wrote:
>
> I got an email this morning from a Phil Penny at Belvoir Media Group,
> claiming that Kitplanes magazine owns the homebuilt plane vendor directory
> spreadsheet I created this fall from various sources, mainly the Internet.
> He claims it's theirs because I used similar codes as they did in their
> "pay-per-view" directory, like "wf" for wood & fabric, "m" for metal, etc. I
> guess he thought I should have used "Z" for metal and "QP" for wood &
> fabric. He also objected to the fact that my directory has data similar to
> theirs. Well, I hope it's similar; otherwise someone has incorrect data; a
> plane's wingspan, for example, is a rather fixed value.
>
> It's bad enough that these people are so cheap they even charge subscribers
> to view things on their web page, but this really takes the cake.
>
> Phil threatened to sue me if I don't take it down, and I told Phil it wasn't
> theirs or copied from theirs, and I won't be taking it down. So, now he's
> "referring this to our legal counsel". Apparently, there is no limit to
> their greed.
>
> If anyone wants a copy of it, I suggest getting it now. Also, several people
> have given me updated info to put into it, so if you know of any incorrect
> or missing data, please let me know, and I will update it with that info.
>
> I'm only on a couple lists, but if you're on other homebuilder lists, you
> might want to forward this URL to other lists you are on, so more people can
> access the directory while it's still available (just in case they are
> successful if getting it removed).
>
> I put a lot of work into this, as a resource that we can all keep up to date
> and share. It's a shame there are people and companies like this out there
> to harass people who are trying to do something decent for everyone.
>
> The directory is at
>
> http://brian76.mystarband.net/misc.htm#directory
>
>
> --
> 8:22 AM
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Kitplanes attack |
>Brian,
>
>guess its time for alittle letter writing from the homebuilt community to
>Kit Planes.
>Do you have any emial links for us??
Editorial:
* Marc Cook, Editor-in-Chief
* <mailto:editorial@kitplanes.com>editorial@kitplanes.com
* Mary Bernard, Managing Editor
* <mailto:editorial@kitplanes.com>editorial@kitplanes.com
Do not archive
Ron Lee
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes attack |
I just had a thought. Instead of keeping something like a database on a
personal website, why not upload it to a wikipedia site, and everybody
would have the capability to both add data and to correct invalid data
...... which would make it a community effort and not subject to attack
by Kitplanes.
I'm not a subscriber, but this kind of action doesn't do our 'family'
any good, and would be one reason I wouldn't renew.
The comment about just giving in instead of fighting the situation is
why most 'big guys' get their way ..... even if they're not in the
right. Sad, but it's lawyers who are running this country ...... and
some of them are the worst offenders!!!
Linn
Message 16
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| Subject: | Kitplanes attack |
As mentioned in other posts, tabulating of facts is not a problem, only
if they have a unique design or content that imbues special value do
they have some unique, that may or may not be copyrightable. If you
contend that you developed your information independently, even if you
had a copy of their list, you should still be good to go.
Map makers check for theft by inserting phantom towns or misspelled
words. Then, if a new map shows up that was supposedly developed
independently, but has the same phantom towns or misspelled words, then
they are going to have a problem. In your case, as along as your facts
are the same as the kit list, no problem. If one of your 'facts'
replicates an error in the kit list (intentional or not), then you might
have some explaining to do, otherwise, BMG should spend their time and
effort on something productive...like putting useful, value-added
content in their magazine which may cause people to subscribe or renew
their subscription.
With all that said, we should not make light of people that make an
effort to protect intellectual property that they spent time and
treasury to develop and rightfully own and should be paid for its use,
if they so demand. The Chinese are intellectual thieves of the highest
order and we do not want to emulate their lack of respect for patents,
copyrights and confidential and propriety information. Nonetheless,
there are those enamored of protecting things that they've assumed
ownership of, but truly belongs in the public domain. Count me
skeptical that someone controls the use of "W" as designating wood.
It's not always easy to sort out which is which, and sometimes finding
out you were wrong can be expensive, but seems very doubtful indeed for
a list of kit plane specifications.
Thanks,
Chuck Jensen
Diversified Technologies
2680 Westcott Blvd
Knoxville, TN 37931
Phn: 865-539-9000 x25
Cell: 865-406-9001
Fax: 865-539-9001
cjensen@dts9000.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Meyette
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 2:37 PM
Subject: RV-List: Kitplanes attack
--> <brianpublic2@starband.net>
I got an email this morning from a Phil Penny at Belvoir Media Group,
claiming that Kitplanes magazine owns the homebuilt plane vendor
directory spreadsheet I created this fall from various sources, mainly
the Internet. He claims it's theirs because I used similar codes as they
did in their "pay-per-view" directory, like "wf" for wood & fabric, "m"
for metal, etc. I guess he thought I should have used "Z" for metal and
"QP" for wood & fabric. He also objected to the fact that my directory
has data similar to theirs. Well, I hope it's similar; otherwise someone
has incorrect data; a plane's wingspan, for example, is a rather fixed
value.
It's bad enough that these people are so cheap they even charge
subscribers to view things on their web page, but this really takes the
cake.
Phil threatened to sue me if I don't take it down, and I told Phil it
wasn't theirs or copied from theirs, and I won't be taking it down. So,
now he's "referring this to our legal counsel". Apparently, there is no
limit to their greed.
If anyone wants a copy of it, I suggest getting it now. Also, several
people have given me updated info to put into it, so if you know of any
incorrect or missing data, please let me know, and I will update it with
that info.
I'm only on a couple lists, but if you're on other homebuilder lists,
you might want to forward this URL to other lists you are on, so more
people can access the directory while it's still available (just in case
they are successful if getting it removed).
I put a lot of work into this, as a resource that we can all keep up to
date and share. It's a shame there are people and companies like this
out there to harass people who are trying to do something decent for
everyone.
The directory is at
http://brian76.mystarband.net/misc.htm#directory
--
8:22 AM
Message 17
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| Subject: | Kitplanes attack |
I really appreciate all the support Ive gotten on this in the short time
since I posted the info.
One of the best things about it is that my directory, and more importantly
the concept of what I was trying to do, have gotten wide exposure. I did
the best I could with limited time (I am supposed to be building my plane),
but the directory wasnt as good as Id hoped. I started with a MS Access
database, then switched over to Excel for easier data entry. So, it was a
tad hokey, but it got the job done. I spent a huge amount of time on it,
and Id envisioned something where the list was freely available to all,
easy for users or manufacturers to update the information, and easy for
users to search and sort the data at will.
Since this issue of lawsuit threats came up, a couple people have offered to
take my spreadsheet data and take it to the next level. This is wonderful,
and more in line with what Id originally envisioned; sort of a wiki or
public database that could be kept always up to date and result in the best
search info for users. It was never for me, as I already have my RV-7A, but
I thought others could benefit from it.
Best wishes to all,
brian
Below is the email exchange between me and Phil Penny:
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Meyette [mailto:brianpublic2@starband.net]
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 1:34 PM
Subject: RE: Emailing: Belvoir Copyright - Meyette 12 29 06.pdf
Up yours, Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Penny [ mailto:PPenny@belvoir.com]
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 1:05 PM
Subject: RE: Emailing: Belvoir Copyright - Meyette 12 29 06.pdf
I'm sorry you feel this way, you are forcing us into tougher actions.
I'm referring this to our legal counsel.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Meyette [ mailto:brianpublic2@starband.net]
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 12:30 PM
Subject: RE: Emailing: Belvoir Copyright - Meyette 12 29 06.pdf
You are mistaken. The "codes" you refer to are simple, common
abbreviations that anyone would use. How would you suggest I indicate
that a plane is made from wood & fabric, for example; "GZ"? How would you
suggest I indicate retractable gear; with a "W"? Be realistic.
The data in my directory is different in many cases from the notoriously
erroneous information you published. People all over the Internet are
talking about how inaccurate your directory is. If a plane is of certain
dimensions, then obviously your directory and my directory will contain
the same information. The information contained in the directory is not
copyrighted; it is all freely available on the Internet, where I obtained
most of it.
I started this directory many months before your directory was published.
This information was compiled from various sources, and I will not be
intimidated by your threats.
I suggest you leave me alone. If you want to fight, you will find I can be
quite combative and I don't back down. Any further harassment from you
on this matter will only generate considerable negative publicity for your
company.
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Penny [ mailto:PPenny@belvoir.com]
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 11:33 AM
Subject: Emailing: Belvoir Copyright - Meyette 12 29 06.pdf
<<Belvoir Copyright - Meyette 12 29 06.pdf>>
Dear Mr. Meyette:
Please see the attached letter regarding a possible copyright violation.
Phil Penny
Belvoir Media Group
CONTENTS OF ATTACHED PDF LETTER:
Philip L. Penny
Chief Operating Officer
800 Connecticut Avenue
Norwalk, CT 06854
203.857.3116
ppenny@belvoir.com
December 29, 2006
Mr. Brian Meyette
Via email to: brianpublic2@starband.net
Dear Mr. Meyette:
I am the Chief Operating Officer of Belvoir Media Group, publishers of
KITPLANES Magazine.
We recently became aware of the possible use of our copyrighted material on
your web site ( http:// brian76.mystarband.net/RV-7Ahome.htm ) under the
heading of KITPLANE DIRECTORY.
Although we understand your desire to make information available to fellow
kit-builders, we noticed that a significant portion of the information you
assembled appears to be extracted directly from the December 2006 issue of
KITPLANES. If fact, many of the codes and identifiers we use in the
directory appear on your database. We assume this is an oversight and ask
that you immediately remove the directory.
Publishing is a difficult business and we put considerable resources into
creating our directory. While we are not a litigious company, we will take
all necessary steps to avoid unauthorized use of our intellectual property.
Please acknowledge that the directory has been removed.
Sincerely.
Philip L. Penny
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ron Lee
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 3:50 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Kitplanes attack
Brian,
guess its time for alittle letter writing from the homebuilt community to
Kit Planes.
Do you have any emial links for us??
Editorial:
* Marc Cook, Editor-in-Chief
* editorial@kitplanes.com <mailto:editorial@kitplanes.com>
* Mary Bernard, Managing Editor
* editorial@kitplanes.com <mailto:editorial@kitplanes.com>
Do not archive
Ron Lee
--
8:22 AM
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes attack |
Hi Brian,
How can Kit Plane own generic information?? I was, at one time,
going sign up with them, but when I saw you had to pay for info on their
site I thourght what a pack tight a....es!!!!! I'm with you on this one
Brian... I do not buy thier magazine now, all the info is in many other far
better publickations. (and the net) I think every body on the list, who
agrees with Biran, should e-mail Kit Planes and support Brian's free, good
work!!! We don't need this kind of person in our hobby or
business's!!!!!!!!!!! I know some one is going to flame me for
this!!!!!!!???????????? but what the h...ll. Stand up for whats right,
speak up if you don't agree with something, otherwise you get rolled!!!
My Kind Regards to All
Happy New Year , Noel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Meyette" <brianpublic2@starband.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 8:36 AM
Subject: RV-List: Kitplanes attack
>
> I got an email this morning from a Phil Penny at Belvoir Media Group,
> claiming that Kitplanes magazine owns the homebuilt plane vendor directory
> spreadsheet I created this fall from various sources, mainly the Internet.
> He claims it's theirs because I used similar codes as they did in their
> "pay-per-view" directory, like "wf" for wood & fabric, "m" for metal, etc.
> I
> guess he thought I should have used "Z" for metal and "QP" for wood &
> fabric. He also objected to the fact that my directory has data similar to
> theirs. Well, I hope it's similar; otherwise someone has incorrect data; a
> plane's wingspan, for example, is a rather fixed value.
>
> It's bad enough that these people are so cheap they even charge
> subscribers
> to view things on their web page, but this really takes the cake.
>
> Phil threatened to sue me if I don't take it down, and I told Phil it
> wasn't
> theirs or copied from theirs, and I won't be taking it down. So, now he's
> "referring this to our legal counsel". Apparently, there is no limit to
> their greed.
>
> If anyone wants a copy of it, I suggest getting it now. Also, several
> people
> have given me updated info to put into it, so if you know of any incorrect
> or missing data, please let me know, and I will update it with that info.
>
> I'm only on a couple lists, but if you're on other homebuilder lists, you
> might want to forward this URL to other lists you are on, so more people
> can
> access the directory while it's still available (just in case they are
> successful if getting it removed).
>
> I put a lot of work into this, as a resource that we can all keep up to
> date
> and share. It's a shame there are people and companies like this out there
> to harass people who are trying to do something decent for everyone.
>
> The directory is at
>
> http://brian76.mystarband.net/misc.htm#directory
>
>
> --
> 8:22 AM
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Kitplanes attack |
I agree completely, and that was sort of my original idea, implemented in a
rather hokey way with my limited time & resources. A couple people have
emailed me about doing something similar to this, starting with my
spreadsheet, and I hope they do it. It'll be a great resource for all of us
in the homebuilt community.
I had used the term "kitplanes directory" on my web site, just to save width
in the "contents" frame. I've since changed it to "Homebuilt plane vendor
directory", which avoids use of the "K" word and is actually more accurate.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of linn Walters
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Kitplanes attack
I just had a thought. Instead of keeping something like a database on a
personal website, why not upload it to a wikipedia site, and everybody
would have the capability to both add data and to correct invalid data
...... which would make it a community effort and not subject to attack
by Kitplanes.
I'm not a subscriber, but this kind of action doesn't do our 'family'
any good, and would be one reason I wouldn't renew.
The comment about just giving in instead of fighting the situation is
why most 'big guys' get their way ..... even if they're not in the
right. Sad, but it's lawyers who are running this country ...... and
some of them are the worst offenders!!!
Linn
--
8:22 AM
--
8:22 AM
Message 20
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| Subject: | Kitplanes attack |
Guys,
Before everyone gets too carried away try to look at this pragmatically.
This obviously is a mis-understanding that has gotten WAY out of control.
While Brian is a good guy, he's obviously emotionally attached to his work
(that's not a bad thing). The result of this is his initial and follow on
responses to inquiries was less than usefull ("up yours" gets you nowhere)
in settling any confusion and probably didn't help the situation out any.
My point is this....I'm not attacking Brian in anyway, nor Defending the
other guys. What I am pointing out is that what probably could have been
taken care of with some thoughtfull and factual emails/letters back and
forth has grown beyond what it should have. Their initial request was sent
via email, which is hardly a legal "served" paper complaint - they needed to
be educated, but that has to happen in a polite and proper way - even if the
initial complaint wasn't so nice. You always get more with honey than with
vinegar. My opinion is that an initial response should have perhaps been
crafted less defensively and listed more historical facts listing the past
development of said data.
As someone who is in the middle of a legally complex aviation "thing" right
now, I've learned some VERY important lessons. #1 is that "we" as builders
and business people are very emotional people and are emotionally attached
to most everything we do. Lawyers on the other hand have a good talent of
remaning emotionally detached from issues they are involved in - which is a
very good thing when you need them on your side. You'll notice that instead
of responding to the "up yours" email the guy politetly said he'd forward it
to legal counsel - why? - because they can take a completely un-emotional
look at it. Something that is nearly impossible for us to do personally.
Anyway, I'm not defending either person. I know Brian to be a decent person
so I'm fairly confident he didn't go into this trying to step on anyones
toes. Conversely, I know the guys at Kitplanes (as both a builder and a
business) and I can say that I also know they are very good people that
truly care about homebuilders. When is the last time you saw a Cessna 140,
Bonanza, 172, Restored Aeronca, or other certificated plane as their cover
story? I've found EAA really starting to diverge from the "E"
(experimental) part of their business - but that is their choice and
marketing strategy. After working with the Kitplanes guys I can say that
they are truly listening to the community and trying to craft a magazine for
and about builders...not the guy who spent a gagillion $$'s restoring his
Comanche (or whatever). I know executives at both magazines and while they
each have their own "view of the world", I can say both are decent sets of
people.
Well, in closing I'm hoping cooler heads can prevail here because no good
ever comes of things like this other than a lot of bad press, hurt feelings,
mis-understandings and truly everyone looses. I'd urge both sides here to
step back, take a few deep breaths and re-evaluate the process they are
going through. I hate to see honest builders like Brian getting stepped on
for something that might have been able to be avoided, as well as I hate to
see the guys at Kitplanes being overly aggressive, because it's not their
sole purpose or nature...
Just my 2 cents as usual, and no ill will towards either party, I respect
them both.
Cheers,
Stein.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of noel anderson
>Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 3:40 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Kitplanes attack
>
>
>
>Hi Brian,
> How can Kit Plane own generic information?? I was, at one time,
>going sign up with them, but when I saw you had to pay for info on their
>site I thourght what a pack tight a....es!!!!! I'm with you on this one
>Brian... I do not buy thier magazine now, all the info is in many
>other far
>better publickations. (and the net) I think every body on the list, who
>agrees with Biran, should e-mail Kit Planes and support Brian's free, good
>work!!! We don't need this kind of person in our hobby or
>business's!!!!!!!!!!! I know some one is going to flame me for
>this!!!!!!!???????????? but what the h...ll. Stand up for whats right,
>speak up if you don't agree with something, otherwise you get rolled!!!
>
> My Kind Regards to All
>Happy New Year , Noel
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Brian Meyette" <brianpublic2@starband.net>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 8:36 AM
>Subject: RV-List: Kitplanes attack
>
>
><brianpublic2@starband.net>
>>
>> I got an email this morning from a Phil Penny at Belvoir Media Group,
>> claiming that Kitplanes magazine owns the homebuilt plane vendor
>directory
>> spreadsheet I created this fall from various sources, mainly the
>Internet.
>> He claims it's theirs because I used similar codes as they did in their
>> "pay-per-view" directory, like "wf" for wood & fabric, "m" for
>metal, etc.
>> I
>> guess he thought I should have used "Z" for metal and "QP" for wood &
>> fabric. He also objected to the fact that my directory has data
>similar to
>> theirs. Well, I hope it's similar; otherwise someone has
>incorrect data; a
>> plane's wingspan, for example, is a rather fixed value.
>>
>> It's bad enough that these people are so cheap they even charge
>> subscribers
>> to view things on their web page, but this really takes the cake.
>>
>> Phil threatened to sue me if I don't take it down, and I told Phil it
>> wasn't
>> theirs or copied from theirs, and I won't be taking it down. So, now he's
>> "referring this to our legal counsel". Apparently, there is no limit to
>> their greed.
>>
>> If anyone wants a copy of it, I suggest getting it now. Also, several
>> people
>> have given me updated info to put into it, so if you know of any
>incorrect
>> or missing data, please let me know, and I will update it with that info.
>>
>> I'm only on a couple lists, but if you're on other homebuilder lists, you
>> might want to forward this URL to other lists you are on, so more people
>> can
>> access the directory while it's still available (just in case they are
>> successful if getting it removed).
>>
>> I put a lot of work into this, as a resource that we can all keep up to
>> date
>> and share. It's a shame there are people and companies like this
>out there
>> to harass people who are trying to do something decent for everyone.
>>
>> The directory is at
>>
>> http://brian76.mystarband.net/misc.htm#directory
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> 8:22 AM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: RV-7 rear deck question |
Charlie, I believe the spacers you are referring to, I ah do not have the
plans in front of me as I type however, do not get drilled/fitted until the
horizontal stabilizer is fitted to the fuselage. What I have in mind is
held with bolts. I can think of no other spacer/shim so if this does not
sound right to you, please identify the part/parts/skin you are inquiring
about. (I believe I just helped finish this step a month ago so it is
pretty fresh in mind.) Larry in Indiana
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie England" <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 8:15 AM
Subject: RV-List: RV-7 rear deck question
>
> I'm about to rivet the rear deck to the longerons on my -7 fuselage.
> The instructions don't mention whether to install the various
> shims/spacers that go between the bulkheads & the rear deck. Have
> y'all been placing these as you install the read deck, or waiting
> until the tail goes on & sliding them in, hoping that they are aligned
> correctly?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
Message 22
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Talking about parking tail to nose and nose to tail, they started doing
this at OSH last year when I arrived. Someone got it changed in quick
order within 30 minutes. I was there and did not like the arrangement
but was happy to move SunSeeker to a new roll and have the lines
uniform. I think it is better for spectators and owners. Larry in
Indiana
----- Original Message -----
From: Fiveonepw@aol.com
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: SNF Changes
I would think a large sign posted at each entrance saying something
like "READ BEFORE ENTERING: These aircraft are the expensive children of
their owners who have lovingly devoted many years to their construction
and can easily be damaged by mishandling- PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH THEM!" may
help, but I think the most insidious practice is S&Fs habit of stuffing
the more popular models (RVs) into a small area nose&tail with inches
between wingtips. I've seen numerous instances of folks oohing&aahing
one plane and backing into the one packed tightly against it, banging
backpacks into planes trying to squeeze between them etc. Particularly
frustrating when you see the acres of open ground at LAL where these
planes could easily be parked...
Mark- RV-6A N51PW do not archive
http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/
Message 23
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| Subject: | RV-7 rear deck question |
I believe that's a different spacer. I think the spacer Charlie is talking
about is the one that goes atop the 710 and the 711 bulkheads, under the aft
deck. I just rechecked the plans, and those CAN be riveted in now. Later in
the process, as you point out , there are two other spacers that go on TOP
of the aft deck and under the HS and, again as you point out, those are
something left until tail mating.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LarryRobertHelming
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-7 rear deck question
--> <lhelming@sigecom.net>
Charlie, I believe the spacers you are referring to, I ah do not have the
plans in front of me as I type however, do not get drilled/fitted until the
horizontal stabilizer is fitted to the fuselage. What I have in mind is
held with bolts. I can think of no other spacer/shim so if this does not
sound right to you, please identify the part/parts/skin you are inquiring
about. (I believe I just helped finish this step a month ago so it is
pretty fresh in mind.) Larry in Indiana
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie England" <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 8:15 AM
Subject: RV-List: RV-7 rear deck question
> --> <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
>
> I'm about to rivet the rear deck to the longerons on my -7 fuselage.
> The instructions don't mention whether to install the various
> shims/spacers that go between the bulkheads & the rear deck. Have
> y'all been placing these as you install the read deck, or waiting
> until the tail goes on & sliding them in, hoping that they are aligned
> correctly?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
Message 24
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LarryRobertHelming wrote:
> Talking about parking tail to nose and nose to tail, they started
> doing this at OSH last year when I arrived. Someone got it changed in
> quick order within 30 minutes. I was there and did not like the
> arrangement but was happy to move SunSeeker to a new roll and have the
> lines uniform. I think it is better for spectators and owners. Larry
> in Indiana
Larry,
I'm the guy in charge of RV parking, and I can give you some insight
into why this was done and why it was changed. When it comes to RV
parking, we have the problem every year of putting more planes into the
same size space. We've been telling EAA for years that we need more
space, but what we get is never enough. Anyway, this year someone
higher than me in the food chain had the brain child to tail-in the
parking rows. I told them why it was a bad idea and why it wouldn't
work. He told us to do it anyway.
So... what you saw on Saturday morning was the result. We weren't any
more happy about it than anyone else (my RV-6 was right in there tailed
in with everyone else.) We tried our best to be good soldiers and make
it work, but as soon as arrivals started, it became clear that it just
wasn't going to work. Pilots were on the verge of mutiny. I decided to
re-mark all the parking rows and move everyone into single file, as
we've done for years. It was a lot of work for about an hour, but we
got the cones and markers moved, and got everyone into proper rows,
thankfully before it got too busy.
When my boss found out he was less than thrilled, but I think we made
him understand. I suspect that the specter of tailing in might raise
it's ugly head again this year, but we've told them in no uncertain
terms that we will never try that again. So, if you see RVs tailed in
next year, it means that I have been fired and replaced, so don't blame
me. ;)
Jeff Point
do not archive
> *
> *
Message 25
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| Subject: | Looking for Aus. based Epenage kit for sale |
Hi all - just trying my luck here, I am looking for a current RV7 un-built epenage
kit for sale in Australia.
Does anyone know of any unfinished RV projects for sale here ? Thanks in advance.
--------
Brant Winter
Potential Australian RV builder
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=84372#84372
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: RV-7 rear deck question |
My apologies for being lazy; I failed to write down the #s before coming
up to the house & asking the question.
Bob's right, it's the spacers between the top of the 710 & 711 spacers &
the 714 deck. The 710 spacer actually gets 4 rivets that end up *under*
the hor stab spar (between the 2 spacers that go on top of 714), so that
one really must be installed prior to the stab installation. I went
ahead & riveted that one. The other is the 'T' shaped one at 711.
My concern is having one shift while drilling the hor stab to the
fuselage, if it's not already riveted in place.
BTW, when making these parts, I failed to notice that the 7ll piece is
called out as AS3-125 & the 2 small spacers that go on top of 710 are
called out as AB-125. I made the 711 spacer from the 8" long AB-125 bar
stock & then realized that I didn't have enough left to make the 2 small
spacers. The bar stock is much harder than the 'sheet' stock. I called
Van's & Ken said that it didn't matter which stock each was made of.
(Wonder why they call out different materials if it doesn't matter....)
Charlie
Bob Collins wrote:
>
>I believe that's a different spacer. I think the spacer Charlie is talking
>about is the one that goes atop the 710 and the 711 bulkheads, under the aft
>deck. I just rechecked the plans, and those CAN be riveted in now. Later in
>the process, as you point out , there are two other spacers that go on TOP
>of the aft deck and under the HS and, again as you point out, those are
>something left until tail mating.
>
>Bob
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LarryRobertHelming
>Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 7:02 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-7 rear deck question
>
>--> <lhelming@sigecom.net>
>
>Charlie, I believe the spacers you are referring to, I ah do not have the
>plans in front of me as I type however, do not get drilled/fitted until the
>horizontal stabilizer is fitted to the fuselage. What I have in mind is
>held with bolts. I can think of no other spacer/shim so if this does not
>sound right to you, please identify the part/parts/skin you are inquiring
>about. (I believe I just helped finish this step a month ago so it is
>pretty fresh in mind.) Larry in Indiana
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Charlie England" <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
>To: "RV list" <rv-list@matronics.com>; <rv7-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 8:15 AM
>Subject: RV-List: RV-7 rear deck question
>
>
>
>
>>--> <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
>>
>>I'm about to rivet the rear deck to the longerons on my -7 fuselage.
>>The instructions don't mention whether to install the various
>>shims/spacers that go between the bulkheads & the rear deck. Have
>>y'all been placing these as you install the read deck, or waiting
>>until the tail goes on & sliding them in, hoping that they are aligned
>>correctly?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Charlie
>>
>>
>>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: RV-7 rear deck question |
Try a little superglue. Literally. It'll stay put while you're drilling
it, and it'll pop right off with a little force when you want to remove it
to debur it.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
www.rvproject.com / www.weathermeister.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie England" <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-7 rear deck question
>
> My apologies for being lazy; I failed to write down the #s before coming
> up to the house & asking the question.
>
> Bob's right, it's the spacers between the top of the 710 & 711 spacers &
> the 714 deck. The 710 spacer actually gets 4 rivets that end up *under*
> the hor stab spar (between the 2 spacers that go on top of 714), so that
> one really must be installed prior to the stab installation. I went ahead
> & riveted that one. The other is the 'T' shaped one at 711.
>
> My concern is having one shift while drilling the hor stab to the
> fuselage, if it's not already riveted in place.
>
> BTW, when making these parts, I failed to notice that the 7ll piece is
> called out as AS3-125 & the 2 small spacers that go on top of 710 are
> called out as AB-125. I made the 711 spacer from the 8" long AB-125 bar
> stock & then realized that I didn't have enough left to make the 2 small
> spacers. The bar stock is much harder than the 'sheet' stock. I called
> Van's & Ken said that it didn't matter which stock each was made of.
> (Wonder why they call out different materials if it doesn't matter....)
>
> Charlie
>
> Bob Collins wrote:
>
>>
>>I believe that's a different spacer. I think the spacer Charlie is talking
>>about is the one that goes atop the 710 and the 711 bulkheads, under the
>>aft
>>deck. I just rechecked the plans, and those CAN be riveted in now. Later
>>in
>>the process, as you point out , there are two other spacers that go on TOP
>>of the aft deck and under the HS and, again as you point out, those are
>>something left until tail mating.
>>
>>Bob
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>>LarryRobertHelming
>>Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 7:02 PM
>>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-7 rear deck question
>>
>><lhelming@sigecom.net>
>>
>>Charlie, I believe the spacers you are referring to, I ah do not have the
>>plans in front of me as I type however, do not get drilled/fitted until
>>the
>>horizontal stabilizer is fitted to the fuselage. What I have in mind is
>>held with bolts. I can think of no other spacer/shim so if this does not
>>sound right to you, please identify the part/parts/skin you are inquiring
>>about. (I believe I just helped finish this step a month ago so it is
>>pretty fresh in mind.) Larry in Indiana
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Charlie England" <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
>>To: "RV list" <rv-list@matronics.com>; <rv7-list@matronics.com>
>>Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 8:15 AM
>>Subject: RV-List: RV-7 rear deck question
>>
>>
>>
>>><ceengland@bellsouth.net>
>>>
>>>I'm about to rivet the rear deck to the longerons on my -7 fuselage.
>>>The instructions don't mention whether to install the various
>>>shims/spacers that go between the bulkheads & the rear deck. Have y'all
>>>been placing these as you install the read deck, or waiting until the
>>>tail goes on & sliding them in, hoping that they are aligned correctly?
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>Charlie
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Riveting curved skin surface |
We are having some difficulty riveting the curved area of the side skin where it
meets the belly skin on the RV-10 tailcone. We have too many rivet heads that
are sitting "proud" and will have to be drilled out. Looking for any tips or
techniques.
--------
David Maib
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=84383#84383
Message 29
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| Subject: | RV-7 rear deck question |
> My concern is having one shift while drilling the hor stab to the
> fuselage, if it's not already riveted in place.
>
Everything under the deck is stable since they're riveted now. When you
install the HS, the only thing floating around there is the two smaller
spacers that go on top of the deck. Van's instructions, I think, present
this as a two-step process (I think it has you drilling the HS into the
deck/longeron combination and then they have you insert the little spacers
and drill that. Didn't make sense to me to do it that way, nor apparently to
anyone else that I've talked to who think when it's time to install the HS,
put the whole shootin' match in there...superglue or duct tape or clamp and
drill.
But you don't need to worry 'bout that yet, Charlie. Rivet that other spacer
on (the "T" spacer) and then get the aft deck put in place.
BTW, when I put my aft deck on -- and I'm going from memory here -- one
thing you might want to do in order to position the aft deck correctly is
put the aft skin and the the 709 bulkhead on (that half-moon one) and then
put the aft deck on. The reason I recommend this is the front of that aft
deck is pre-punched and it's one of the parts that -- I think - prepunched
doesn't help that much and could hurt.
Doing it this way ensures that the aft deck will be centered perfectly on
the longerons, the aft deck will be aligned perfectly with the the 709 and
the 709 will be aligned perfectly with the aft skin, which will -- of
course, be aligned perfectly with the side skins and longeron. Everybody's
happy.
Don't be stupid like me. I put the aft deck on there and didn't center it
that well, then clecoed the 709 on and drilled. The aft deck was, in fact,
slightly aligned to the right side and while the edge distance on the left
longeron was accepta ble (barely), the 709 didn't fit the aft skin as well
as I would've liked. I ended up taking the 709, riveting a doubler over the
holes and redrilling to make it fit better with the aft skin.
Bob
Message 30
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I had the pleasure of sitting under a tree and watch Jeff work parking all
those RVs. It was a masterful performance and I'm sure the arriving Rvers
agreed.
I suggest whoever his boss is at Oshkosh just do whatever he says.
I think there were 400-450 RVs at OSH this year and I'm sure there'll be a
lot more next year. What do you suppose the plan will be for accomodating
them all?
Bob
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Point
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: SNF Changes
LarryRobertHelming wrote:
> Talking about parking tail to nose and nose to tail, they started
> doing this at OSH last year when I arrived. Someone got it changed in
> quick order within 30 minutes. I was there and did not like the
> arrangement but was happy to move SunSeeker to a new roll and have the
> lines uniform. I think it is better for spectators and owners. Larry
> in Indiana
Larry,
I'm the guy in charge of RV parking, and I can give you some insight into
why this was done and why it was changed. When it comes to RV parking, we
have the problem every year of putting more planes into the same size space.
We've been telling EAA for years that we need more space, but what we get is
never enough. Anyway, this year someone higher than me in the food chain
had the brain child to tail-in the parking rows. I told them why it was a
bad idea and why it wouldn't work. He told us to do it anyway.
So... what you saw on Saturday morning was the result. We weren't any more
happy about it than anyone else (my RV-6 was right in there tailed in with
everyone else.) We tried our best to be good soldiers and make it work, but
as soon as arrivals started, it became clear that it just wasn't going to
work. Pilots were on the verge of mutiny. I decided to re-mark all the
parking rows and move everyone into single file, as we've done for years.
It was a lot of work for about an hour, but we got the cones and markers
moved, and got everyone into proper rows, thankfully before it got too busy.
When my boss found out he was less than thrilled, but I think we made him
understand. I suspect that the specter of tailing in might raise it's ugly
head again this year, but we've told them in no uncertain terms that we will
never try that again. So, if you see RVs tailed in next year, it means that
I have been fired and replaced, so don't blame me. ;)
Jeff Point
do not archive
> *
> *
Message 31
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| Subject: | On Making Choices |
Those of you who have seen the report of the crash of a Bonanza near
Lancaster on Wednesday 12/27/06 may be amused to know that I talked briefly with
the
Pilot of said aircraft just as I arrived at KWJF from Henderson, NV and
(wisely it turns out) decided to park it for the night, just as he described how
he intended to depart for Chico.
I'm not his mother, so I said, basically, "good luck with that". Perhaps I
should have said more, but we will never know if I could have been more
persuasive in my comments.
The area was developing some pretty aggressive gusts (wind shear) and I was
becoming surrounded on three sides by some pretty good sized little cells
when I arrived in Lancaster. They told me that I was going no further that day.
I lifted off the next morning to the sight of snow on the Tehachapis and
ended up getting back to LVK the next morning in rather strong (but steady)
headwinds and clear skies.
I hope everyone had a good and safe Christmas and I wish you all the best in
the new year. Pay attention to your instincts, keep the tanks full and you
will live to be an old (not bold) pilot. RVs sure do handle the winds well
and I never once had any difficulty flying in California during the days that
trees and power line towers were falling. Ground speeds were down from my
usual 164kts to about 124kts, and the landing required a little more attention
to detail though.
GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 830hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes attack |
Keep in mind that Avweb is now owned and operated by Belvoir, partly
because the creators of Avweb were threatened by the aviation litigation
attorney Allen Wolk and couldn't afford to fight.
Perhaps a bunch of letters of complaint to the other Belvoir
publications, such as Av Consumer, Lt Plane Maintenance, IFR, etc and
discontinuing those publications might get their attention.
Do NOT archive
Message 33
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What do you suppose the plan will be for accomodating them all?
http://www.armaerospace.com/
I've requisitioned 500 of these. Should have them planted in the field
by showtime. Problem solved.
Jeff
do not archive
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | RV-7 rear deck question |
I fit and riveted the spacers with the rear deck at that time.
******************************************
Don Hall
N517DG (registered)
rv7 fuselage
http://rv7.donka.net
******************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 9:15 AM
Subject: RV-List: RV-7 rear deck question
I'm about to rivet the rear deck to the longerons on my -7 fuselage.
The instructions don't mention whether to install the various shims/spacers
that go between the bulkheads & the rear deck. Have y'all been placing these
as you install the read deck, or waiting until the tail goes on & sliding
them in, hoping that they are aligned correctly?
Thanks,
Charlie
Message 35
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| Subject: | Kitplanes attack |
If they are complaining about your use of "w" for wood and such, try
capitalizing them so as to be different.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Meyette
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 1:48 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Kitplanes attack
<brianpublic2@starband.net>
I agree completely, and that was sort of my original idea, implemented
in a
rather hokey way with my limited time & resources. A couple people
have
emailed me about doing something similar to this, starting with my
spreadsheet, and I hope they do it. It'll be a great resource for all
of us
in the homebuilt community.
I had used the term "kitplanes directory" on my web site, just to save
width
in the "contents" frame. I've since changed it to "Homebuilt plane
vendor
directory", which avoids use of the "K" word and is actually more
accurate.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of linn Walters
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Kitplanes attack
I just had a thought. Instead of keeping something like a database on a
personal website, why not upload it to a wikipedia site, and everybody
would have the capability to both add data and to correct invalid data
...... which would make it a community effort and not subject to attack
by Kitplanes.
I'm not a subscriber, but this kind of action doesn't do our 'family'
any good, and would be one reason I wouldn't renew.
The comment about just giving in instead of fighting the situation is
why most 'big guys' get their way ..... even if they're not in the
right. Sad, but it's lawyers who are running this country ...... and
some of them are the worst offenders!!!
Linn
--
8:22 AM
--
8:22 AM
Message 36
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I guess they don't have to know that you returned most of that
aluminum later for a refund ;-)
Sadly, were that this be true, but in fact I be very good at screwing up
parts and remaking them out of tax paid al-u-mini-um.
do not archive
Message 37
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| Subject: | cylinder baffles |
I use an 1/8 or 3/16 inch cotter pin through each hole facing away from the
safety wire run through a hole the lower baffle flanges and a backup #8
steel washer. Bend the cotter pin legs out so they lay along the flange then
run the safety wire through the eyelet now made from the round end of the
cotter pin.
I use 6 inches of -2 aeroquip hose as a chafe guard around the return tubes
and two full laps of .041 safety wire fed through the hose and then
throughly twisted that runs most of the way, then one small double loop to
attach the other end and pull it tight.
I also glue on some 1/16 inch rubber sheet to the parts that lay against the
steel fins to prevent chafing cuts in the baffle.
W
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes attack |
Brian Meyette wrote:
>
> I got an email this morning from a Phil Penny at Belvoir Media Group,
> claiming that Kitplanes magazine owns the homebuilt plane vendor directory
> spreadsheet I created this fall from various sources, mainly the Internet.
> He claims it's theirs because I used similar codes as they did in their
> "pay-per-view" directory, like "wf" for wood & fabric, "m" for metal, etc.
Stuff like this really gets on my nerves. I think it is always good to
remind everyone that copyright and patent laws were written to promote
the free exchange of ideas, not to give someone exclusive eternal rights
to something. In this case I don't see how they can claim rights to the
data. I would change your logical abbreviations to symbols or maybe
graphics and then see what their complaint is. Another idea is to make
it user maintained. So an automated site would let users submit
corrections to the data. That way you can say the data is entered by
any number of people and can't possibly be theirs. I would be glad to
help build the pages need to do this if you like.
I have a possible solution though. If the fight with their lawyers
becomes more than it is worth, just have someone else put it up on their
web site. When they find out about it just move it again. I'm sure
there are several people here that have web sites up. I have a few web
sites I would be glad to post it on. Though none of them are aviation
related, I would even be willing to make an aviation related site just
for this. Of course I would eventually end up having other things there
too.
--
Chris W
KE5GIX
"Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM,
learn more at http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm"
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