Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:03 AM - Re: Gear Mount install ()
2. 04:23 AM - Re: Quick Build (QB) Wings (Wayne Edgerton)
3. 05:01 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (EAAINC@aol.com)
4. 06:00 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
5. 06:29 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (James Clark)
6. 06:54 AM - Re: Gear Mount install (Bob Newman)
7. 07:02 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
8. 07:18 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
9. 07:28 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (John Gonzalez)
10. 07:32 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (David McNeill)
11. 07:39 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
12. 07:41 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
13. 07:53 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
14. 08:21 AM - Pilots need to know flap angle (Bill DeRouchey)
15. 08:25 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
16. 08:27 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
17. 08:29 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
18. 08:42 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (Tim Olson)
19. 08:45 AM - Re: Pilots need to know flap angle (Tim Olson)
20. 08:47 AM - Re: Pilots need to know flap angle (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
21. 08:52 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
22. 09:01 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
23. 09:05 AM - Re: Pilots need to know flap angle (Phillips, Jack)
24. 09:07 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
25. 09:11 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
26. 09:25 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
27. 09:42 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (Rick)
28. 09:48 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (James Clark)
29. 09:51 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
30. 09:53 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (John Jessen)
31. 09:55 AM - Re: Pilots need to know flap angle (John Jessen)
32. 10:03 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
33. 10:03 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
34. 10:27 AM - Re: Pilots need to know flap angle (Phillips, Jack)
35. 10:38 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (David Hertner)
36. 10:41 AM - Re: Pilots need to know flap angle (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
37. 11:15 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
38. 11:29 AM - Re: Pilots need to know flap angle (Phillips, Jack)
39. 11:57 AM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (Brian Sponcil)
40. 12:00 PM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
41. 12:14 PM - Another useful tool - Mini-Drill (KiloPapa)
42. 12:42 PM - Door P-Seal problem (KiloPapa)
43. 01:02 PM - Re: Do Not Archive (KiloPapa)
44. 01:18 PM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (Chris Johnston)
45. 01:32 PM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
46. 03:07 PM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (John Gonzalez)
47. 03:09 PM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (PJ Seipel)
48. 04:12 PM - Re: Another useful tool - Mini-Drill (Dick Gurley)
49. 04:46 PM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (John W. Cox)
50. 04:49 PM - Electric Load analysis (Deems Davis)
51. 05:00 PM - Re: Pilots need to know flap angle (Chris)
52. 05:08 PM - Re: Pilots need to know flap angle (Dan Masys)
53. 05:17 PM - Headliner before cabin cover riveting? (Dan Masys)
54. 05:34 PM - Re: Electric Load analysis (Dan Masys)
55. 05:53 PM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (John W. Cox)
56. 06:03 PM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
57. 06:03 PM - Re: Headliner before cabin cover riveting? (Tim Olson)
58. 06:08 PM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
59. 06:22 PM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (John W. Cox)
60. 06:53 PM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (bob.kaufmann)
61. 06:53 PM - Mistral (David McNeill)
62. 07:21 PM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (Dean Van Winkle)
63. 07:38 PM - Re: Headliner before cabin cover riveting? (Deems Davis)
64. 08:18 PM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (LIKE2LOOP@aol.com)
65. 08:36 PM - Re: Headliner before cabin cover riveting? (DejaVu)
66. 08:38 PM - RV-10 Kits (lyleap)
67. 08:43 PM - Static Ports (DejaVu)
68. 09:03 PM - NO LONGER Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (Robert G. Wright)
69. 09:10 PM - Re: Static Ports (Steven DiNieri)
70. 09:28 PM - Re: Static Ports (David McNeill)
71. 09:54 PM - Re: NO LONGER Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
72. 10:02 PM - Re: Static Ports (David Maib)
73. 10:16 PM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (David M.)
74. 10:52 PM - Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials (James Clark)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Gear Mount install |
I had to open up one side of the bottom skins where the round mount extends through
the bottom. Both trimmings were on the outside portion. Maybe an 1/8".
But it was enough to keep them from going in.
Also. there are a couple of places where double flush rivets are required. They
were on the bottom of the wing spar carry through. THey will hold the mount
up high enough for bolts to not fit.
Do Not Archive.
Jim Combs
N312F
40192
===========================================================
hey all -
made tons of progress on the fuse this weekend, but i left off at the temp install
of the gear mount (where you mark and drill the holes for the floor rib.
i cursed a bit, and wiggled, pushed, tapped, and otherwise made my best effort
to cajole the things into place, but they are fighting me... anyone else have
any trouble with this part? i have the left one in, but i don't know how i'll
get it back out - the bolts were really tight to get in... the right one won't
line up at all. anyone have to apply a bit of judicious buffing or clearancing
of things in the neighborhood? harrumph.
cj
#40410
fuse
===========================================================
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Quick Build (QB) Wings |
They just sent it out to me. I didn't even realize that it existed until
I received it. Maybe you could give them a call and see where yours is.
Wayne Edgerton # 40336
baffling
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged 220HP
RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
Jan
Message 4
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| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
Jan
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as not
being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
>
> Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
> shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh. Now
> how about some dyno numbers?
>
>
> Michael Sausen
>
> RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> Recent RV-10 Build Activity<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *EAAINC@aol.com
> *Sent:* Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
>
>
> I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
> 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
> Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
>
>
> Jan
>
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 6
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|
| Subject: | Re: Gear Mount install |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Newman" <rnewman@lutron.com>
I recently did the gear leg mount install and was surprised that mine
almost jumped into place. I probably spent less than 30 mins fitting
up both of them. I found that the only issue was relieving around the
hole in the bottom skin where the gear mount tube protrudes. A die
grinder and a sharpie pen were the tool of choice to getting about an
1/8" clearance all around the tube leg. Interestingly, I noted the
double flush call-out for the skin rivets that are located just below
the gear leg weldmount, and mine did not require that extra clearance.
The weldmount easily cleared the shop end of a stanard rivet and it
caused no issue when putting the gear leg in. So I'd say the variance
in the weldmounts is enough that you should check whether you really
need double flush rivets in this area.
-Bob Newman
N541RV
40176
>>> jim@combsfive.com 7/17/2006 6:58:58 AM >>>
I had to open up one side of the bottom skins where the round mount
extends through the bottom. Both trimmings were on the outside portion.
Maybe an 1/8". But it was enough to keep them from going in.
Also. there are a couple of places where double flush rivets are
required. They were on the bottom of the wing spar carry through. THey
will hold the mount up high enough for bolts to not fit.
Do Not Archive.
Jim Combs
N312F
40192
===========================================================
hey all -
made tons of progress on the fuse this weekend, but i left off at the
temp install of the gear mount (where you mark and drill the holes for
the floor rib. i cursed a bit, and wiggled, pushed, tapped, and
otherwise made my best effort to cajole the things into place, but they
are fighting me... anyone else have any trouble with this part? i have
the left one in, but i don't know how i'll get it back out - the bolts
were really tight to get in... the right one won't line up at all.
anyone have to apply a bit of judicious buffing or clearancing of things
in the neighborhood? harrumph.
cj
#40410
fuse
===========================================================
Message 7
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|
| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
How about $$?
TDT
Do not archive
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:28 AM
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as
not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 8
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|
| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list for asking
him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10. One
of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a
very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he wouldn't allow
one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no
problem with a potential customer being so. And no, he will never give
dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As far as non-delivery,
do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will
find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates.
One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after the
engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year. Oh and
the "complete" firewall forward package apparently wasn't so complete
either. I'm sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully won't threaten
him to take down the site.
My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due
diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a Lycoming
after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs
engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on that
list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several people off
list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already ordered
and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the status
quo.
I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of
producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow up
his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I am also not
saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after
all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to
tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some
light on things. I have the full history of the email conversations in
question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is
welcome to do so.
James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines? If not, I
strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In reality
the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package
that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different, the fuel
flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be much
different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale value,
expect it to be much less.
Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as
not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 9
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|
| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
Well said.
JG. #409
>From: "James Clark" <jclarkmail@gmail.com>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 09:28:10 -0400
>
>Micheal,
>
>It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
>
>For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as not
>being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
>non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
>
>I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you request.
>
>James
>... no dog in this hunt
>
>On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
>>
>> Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
>>shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh. Now
>>how about some dyno numbers?
>>
>>
>>
>>Michael Sausen
>>
>>RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
>>
>>Do Not Archive
>>
>>Recent RV-10 Build
>>Activity<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
>>
>>*From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
>>owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *EAAINC@aol.com
>>*Sent:* Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
>>*To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
>>*Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
>>
>>
>>
>>I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
>>220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
>>Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
>>
>>
>>
>>Jan
>>
>
>
>--
>This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
>james@nextupventures.com .
Message 10
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|
| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
Sounds like the USA based version of Crossflow?
----- Original Message -----
From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:16 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list for
asking him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the
-10. One of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded
with a very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he wouldn't
allow one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently
had no problem with a potential customer being so. And no, he will
never give dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As far as
non-delivery, do a search of websites of people that have his engines
and you will find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised
delivery dates. One of his best supporters even received the
supercharger well after the engine delivery (which was also late)
pushing things out a year. Oh and the "complete" firewall forward
package apparently wasn't so complete either. I'm sure Jan knows who
this is and he hopefully won't threaten him to take down the site.
My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of
due diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a
Lycoming after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying
Eggs engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on
that list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several
people off list to keep asking the hard questions because they had
already ordered and were afraid they would be denied service for
questioning the status quo.
I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of
producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow up
his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I am also not
saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after
all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to
tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some
light on things. I have the full history of the email conversations in
question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is
welcome to do so.
James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines? If not,
I strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In reality
the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package
that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different, the fuel
flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be much
different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale value,
expect it to be much less.
Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as
not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 11
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|
| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
For Subaru fans, don't forget there's also Crossflow Engines as an
option!
; )
TDT
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:28 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez"
<indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
Well said.
JG. #409
>From: "James Clark" <jclarkmail@gmail.com>
>To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 09:28:10 -0400
>
>Micheal,
>
>It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
>
>For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as
not
>being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
>non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
>
>I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
>
>James
>... no dog in this hunt
>
>On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
>>
>> Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
>>shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
Now
>>how about some dyno numbers?
>>
>>
>>
>>Michael Sausen
>>
>>RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
>>
>>Do Not Archive
>>
>>Recent RV-10 Build
>>Activity<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
>>
>>*From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
>>owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *EAAINC@aol.com
>>*Sent:* Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
>>*To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
>>*Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
>>
>>
>>
>>I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
>>220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this
year.
>>Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
>>
>>
>>
>>Jan
>>
>
>
>--
>This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
>james@nextupventures.com .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
Interestingly enough, I don't see Crossflow listed on the Oshkosh
Exhibitors list!
Innodyn is on there, though . . .
TDT
40025
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:29 AM
Sounds like the USA based version of Crossflow?
----- Original Message -----
From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <mailto:rvbuilder@sausen.net>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:16 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list
for asking him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for
the -10. One of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I
responded with a very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he
wouldn't allow one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he
apparently had no problem with a potential customer being so. And no,
he will never give dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As
far as non-delivery, do a search of websites of people that have his
engines and you will find plenty of instances where he did not meet
promised delivery dates. One of his best supporters even received the
supercharger well after the engine delivery (which was also late)
pushing things out a year. Oh and the "complete" firewall forward
package apparently wasn't so complete either. I'm sure Jan knows who
this is and he hopefully won't threaten him to take down the site.
My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any
type of due diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a
Lycoming after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying
Eggs engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on
that list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several
people off list to keep asking the hard questions because they had
already ordered and were afraid they would be denied service for
questioning the status quo.
I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best
chance of producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him
to grow up his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I
am also not saying that his engine does not meet the performance he
claims, after all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there
is no way to tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to
shed some light on things. I have the full history of the email
conversations in question and anyone who wants to contact me off list
for a copy is welcome to do so.
James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines?
If not, I strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In
reality the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine
package that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different,
the fuel flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be
much different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale
value, expect it to be much less.
Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with
Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes
across as not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are
accusing him of non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what
the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once.
I'm shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not
huh. Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have
turbocharged 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at
Oshkosh this year. Deliveries are available for December with 50%
deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 13
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| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
Figure about $30k with shipping plus whatever customization you need
to do specific to your setup. More attractive since the last Lycoming
kick in price for a new 540. You will also need a different cowl that
James Aircraft is making .
As long as we are on the subject, I am curious about how many of the
-10 builders that got in on his end of the year special received their
engines during the promised June ship date? I know some of you are on
the list. I attribute some of his past shipping problems to a new
product but I would like to see if it got better.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Dawson-Townsend
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:01 AM
How about $$?
TDT
Do not archive
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:28 AM
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as
not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 14
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|
| Subject: | Pilots need to know flap angle |
Question for those lucky folks that are currently flying -
How useful is it to know the flap angle from an RV-10 pilots perspective? I
can easily provide a display to show a coarse setting (Ray Allen POS-12), a very
exact setting (string pot) or simply do nothing. The do nothing choice corresponds
to flaps all the way up or all the way down with a quick look out the
window to confirm.
Is knowing the intermediate angle useful? If so, how accurate?
Bill DeRouchey
N939SB, #40029, billderou@yahoo.com
flyable in 3 days, DAR schedule?
Message 15
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| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
No, Jan does deliver his engines, eventually, and currently has the
only viable alternative package out there. He just tends to run things
off the cuff from what I've seen. He probably needs to get a good
business manager as it seems like he is doing everything there. Reminds
me of another company that has awesome products but no development
controls in place and delivery problems.
You have to keep in mind with his engines they are experimental and do
not have any version control. He makes changes to the design on the fly
as he sees they are needed. The engine he delivers one year are
different from the next because he always uses the current model year
engine. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but it does make it next to
impossible to develop any type of fleet history.
I gave his engine serious consideration. The decision to go with a
Lycoming was based on a couple of things.
1) No one could give me actual performance numbers for the engine.
All HP was calculated.
2) There was enough private feedback for me to be cautious.
3) This was new engine package and a new redrive design.
4) Jan would not give me a straight answer to any of my questions.
I hope the package turns out to be a winner on the RV-10. Right now
there are not enough choices!
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:29 AM
Sounds like the USA based version of Crossflow?
----- Original Message -----
From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <mailto:rvbuilder@sausen.net>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:16 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list
for asking him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for
the -10. One of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I
responded with a very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he
wouldn't allow one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he
apparently had no problem with a potential customer being so. And no,
he will never give dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As
far as non-delivery, do a search of websites of people that have his
engines and you will find plenty of instances where he did not meet
promised delivery dates. One of his best supporters even received the
supercharger well after the engine delivery (which was also late)
pushing things out a year. Oh and the "complete" firewall forward
package apparently wasn't so complete either. I'm sure Jan knows who
this is and he hopefully won't threaten him to take down the site.
My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any
type of due diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a
Lycoming after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying
Eggs engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on
that list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several
people off list to keep asking the hard questions because they had
already ordered and were afraid they would be denied service for
questioning the status quo.
I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best
chance of producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him
to grow up his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I
am also not saying that his engine does not meet the performance he
claims, after all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there
is no way to tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to
shed some light on things. I have the full history of the email
conversations in question and anyone who wants to contact me off list
for a copy is welcome to do so.
James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines?
If not, I strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In
reality the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine
package that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different,
the fuel flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be
much different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale
value, expect it to be much less.
Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with
Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes
across as not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are
accusing him of non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what
the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once.
I'm shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not
huh. Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have
turbocharged 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at
Oshkosh this year. Deliveries are available for December with 50%
deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
Here we go again....
In all fairness to delivery dates, I can name every major vendor out
there that has slipped dates. I have paid in full for my Chelton with
harness and had the dates slipped on my harness from Direct to Avionics,
and the last time I called they had not even finalized the package.
Another one comes to mind is Tru-trak, I have had my servos on order
before May, and have been told several times they would be shipped in
the next few days, it is now July and I still do not have them. Does
this make me mad? No, just disappointed, but I planned for the delays
and in such I will get them and do not have to stress about it, and it
will be the same with the engine.
These small production numbers do not lend themselves well to
predictable delivery times, and as such, we need to be tolerant of them
and slips. One thing Jan has the ability to do well is communicate to
his customers. He is forth coming with changes and allows us to be part
of it. He has kept us informed of the steps along the way. It is an
experimental engine, that is currently being designed, so yes, there
will be delays. But all you have to do is call and he will give you his
best guess, and that is what it is a guess at that time because
unforeseen things come up, the PSRU change comes to mind. But these
delays end up in a better product.
As for the performance figures, they are right on with a Lycoming, and
since this is being sold as a Lycoming replacement, I would say that it
is living right up to expectations. Yes, the cost is the same in the
beginning, but during a re-build, you will get a brand new engine, for
less than it would cost to just do a top overhaul on a Lycoming.
As for the RV10 the package is too new to tell on performance numbers,
but once I am flying with it, I will have a FWF solution including a C/S
speed prop, that in total costs significantly less than a New Lycoming
FWF solution.
I would like to know where you got your information on the resale
numbers, because I am only aware of one sale with an E-Subaru, and that
was for the same amount a standard would sell for. I am not aware on any
other sales, but they could be out there.
The end result is this, in the alternative engine market Jan is the
leader for RV's. The other two have fallen flat on their face or have
gone out of business. I have been following this engine package for
years, and like what I see, and the progress that has been made. More
importantly, I trust Jan and his ability to deliver on the engine, and
if there are issues I am confident in his ability to fix them. This is
the alternative engine market, and something's have to be taken on faith
and your trust in the person.
We all jumped on the RV10 bandwagon, even before performance numbers
were truly known, and this was because we trust in Vans Aircraft and
their commitment to deliver a good product. Many of us ordered before
the kits had even begun being designed, but that was because we trusted
they would make it and make it right, and the delivery times might have
slipped, even as large as Vans is, they did slip on time in the early
kits. I imagine back in the early 80's, people were having the same
discussions about Van's and their ability to deliver, we just did not
have the internet to pontificate about it.
So in all reality, Mike get over it, the engine is not for you, we all
know it is not for you, but you do not have to tear down another persons
business, to make yourself feel better about your decision. All of the
vendors have suffered in delivery times, just get over it.
Dan Lloyd
40269 (N289DT)
Fuselage
_____
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:17 AM
Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list for asking
him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10. One
of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a
very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he wouldn't allow
one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no
problem with a potential customer being so. And no, he will never give
dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As far as non-delivery,
do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will
find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates.
One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after the
engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year. Oh and
the "complete" firewall forward package apparently wasn't so complete
either. I'm sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully won't threaten
him to take down the site.
My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due
diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a Lycoming
after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs
engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on that
list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several people off
list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already ordered
and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the status
quo.
I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of
producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow up
his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I am also not
saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after
all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to
tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some
light on things. I have the full history of the email conversations in
question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is
welcome to do so.
James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines? If not, I
strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In reality
the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package
that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different, the fuel
flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be much
different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale value,
expect it to be much less.
Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as
not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 17
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|
| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
Not even close, Mike is just an upset individual when it comes to this
subject.
NSI and Crossflow are two that come to mind, Eggenfellner is in a whole
different class, as he has actually delivered on his word, where Lance
and others did not.
_____
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:29 AM
Sounds like the USA based version of Crossflow?
----- Original Message -----
From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <mailto:rvbuilder@sausen.net>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:16 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list
for asking him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for
the -10. One of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I
responded with a very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he
wouldn't allow one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he
apparently had no problem with a potential customer being so. And no,
he will never give dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As
far as non-delivery, do a search of websites of people that have his
engines and you will find plenty of instances where he did not meet
promised delivery dates. One of his best supporters even received the
supercharger well after the engine delivery (which was also late)
pushing things out a year. Oh and the "complete" firewall forward
package apparently wasn't so complete either. I'm sure Jan knows who
this is and he hopefully won't threaten him to take down the site.
My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any
type of due diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a
Lycoming after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying
Eggs engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on
that list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several
people off list to keep asking the hard questions because they had
already ordered and were afraid they would be denied service for
questioning the status quo.
I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best
chance of producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him
to grow up his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I
am also not saying that his engine does not meet the performance he
claims, after all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there
is no way to tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to
shed some light on things. I have the full history of the email
conversations in question and anyone who wants to contact me off list
for a copy is welcome to do so.
James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines?
If not, I strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In
reality the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine
package that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different,
the fuel flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be
much different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale
value, expect it to be much less.
Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with
Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes
across as not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are
accusing him of non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what
the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once.
I'm shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not
huh. Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have
turbocharged 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at
Oshkosh this year. Deliveries are available for December with 50%
deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I do have a builder in my area that had extensive problems with
what he was delivered vs. what he was promised. He was constantly
updating me with how nasty his problems were becoming. Unfortunately,
he can now not talk about it because they were rectified by a
return of the engine and a partial refund so he could get a Lyc.
and move on, and in order to get that, he had to sign a statement
that he would not disclose what happened after the agreement
was made. So, it's a gag order to prevent future customers from
finding out about the promises not delivered on. To me, that's
enough motivation to go to any other alternate. That said, there
are many other positive stories we've all heard over the years
from people. Now you just have to decide, which one outweighs
the other. People tend to talk proudly of what they bought and
have, so that tends to remove a little bit of objectivity when
discussing these things too. So it truly is a tough issue to
get to the bottom of when deciding which engine to go with.
I'd love to see a good alternative, but for today, for me, I'm
staying with my Lyc. Hopefully we'll get a few -10's who go
other routes and give honest feedback so we can see how the
decisions pan out. At least with Lyc, the statistics are pretty
standard and well known.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list for asking
> him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10. One
> of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a
> very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he wouldnt allow
> one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no
> problem with a potential customer being so. And no, he will never give
> dyno numbers. He doesnt feel it is necessary. As far as non-delivery,
> do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will
> find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates.
> One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after the
> engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year. Oh and
> the complete firewall forward package apparently wasnt so complete
> either. Im sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully wont threaten
> him to take down the site.
>
>
>
> My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due
> diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a Lycoming
> after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs
> engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on that
> list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several people off
> list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already ordered
> and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the status quo.
>
>
>
> Im not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of
> producing an alternative engine package but its time for him to grow up
> his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I am also not
> saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after
> all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to
> tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some
> light on things. I have the full history of the email conversations in
> question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is
> welcome to do so.
>
>
>
> James, Im guessing you already ordered one of his engines? If not, I
> strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In reality
> the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package
> that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isnt much different, the fuel
> flows wont be much different, and the performance wont be much
> different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale value,
> expect it to be much less.
>
>
>
> Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
>
>
>
> Michael Sausen
>
> RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> Recent RV-10 Build Activity
> <http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *James Clark
> *Sent:* Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
>
>
>
> Micheal,
>
> It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
>
> For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as
> not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
> non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
>
> I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you request.
>
> James
> ... no dog in this hunt
>
> On 7/17/06, *RV Builder (Michael Sausen) *<rvbuilder@sausen.net
> <mailto:rvbuilder@sausen.net>> wrote:
>
> Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
> shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
> Now how about some dyno numbers?
>
>
>
> Michael Sausen
>
> RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> Recent RV-10 Build Activity
> <http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>] *On Behalf Of
> *EAAINC@aol.com <mailto:EAAINC@aol.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
>
>
>
> I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
> 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
> Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
>
>
>
> Jan
>
>
>
>
> --
> This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
> james@nextupventures.com <mailto:james@nextupventures.com> .
>
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Re: Pilots need to know flap angle |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
If you're going to indicate at all, it would be nice to either
have the variable indication on a display, or at least
a 4 position indication to work with the Flap Position System
from Van's. Other than that, I wouldn't bother with a system
that only reads the two extremes. Personally, I'm not all
convinced an indicator system is a big deal on the -10 as it's
very easy to see where the flaps are positioned by a quick
glance. Others who thought it was a big deal that I didn't
have an indicator have actually changed opinions after going
for a flight in the plane. That said, a 4 position indicator
would be kind of cool if it were very cheap and very simple.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Bill DeRouchey wrote:
> Question for those lucky folks that are currently flying -
>
> How useful is it to know the flap angle from an RV-10 pilots
> perspective? I can easily provide a display to show a coarse setting
> (Ray Allen POS-12), a very exact setting (string pot) or simply do
> nothing. The do nothing choice corresponds to flaps all the way up or
> all the way down with a quick look out the window to confirm.
>
> Is knowing the intermediate angle useful? If so, how accurate?
>
> Bill DeRouchey
> N939SB, #40029, billderou@yahoo.com <mailto:billderou@yahoo.com>
> flyable in 3 days, DAR schedule?
>
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | Pilots need to know flap angle |
Strictly from an automatic control point-of-view, it is necessary.
Vans flap positioning system comes with a position sensor but those of
us using another system need another way of sensing it and I think most
are going with the POS-12. I know one builder threw together a linear
sensor for about 5 bucks in Radio Shack parts. I'm going to use
Aircraft Extras FPS+ with trim compensation so I will be mounting a
POS-12 similar to how the recent posts show.
It's probably most critical to know that they are up or down.
Anything in between is just gravy.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
DeRouchey
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:21 AM
Question for those lucky folks that are currently flying -
How useful is it to know the flap angle from an RV-10 pilots
perspective? I can easily provide a display to show a coarse setting
(Ray Allen POS-12), a very exact setting (string pot) or simply do
nothing. The do nothing choice corresponds to flaps all the way up or
all the way down with a quick look out the window to confirm.
Is knowing the intermediate angle useful? If so, how accurate?
Bill DeRouchey
N939SB, #40029, billderou@yahoo.com
flyable in 3 days, DAR schedule?
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
Anybody ever hear from the fellow in Ontario who is supposedly building
a '10 with Corvette power?
I still like my idea of two Thielert diesels driving counter-rotating
concentric-shaft props . . .
Along that line, I did ask 1.5 or 2 years ago at SnF the fellows from
SMA about their diesel. $50K and they weren't too interested in
kitbuilders. They have had some issues introducing that engine, too.
The "formerly known as Bombardier" V-Engine people might be a prospect
if they can get to the next step, too . . .
TDT
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:42 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I do have a builder in my area that had extensive problems with
what he was delivered vs. what he was promised. He was constantly
updating me with how nasty his problems were becoming. Unfortunately,
he can now not talk about it because they were rectified by a
return of the engine and a partial refund so he could get a Lyc.
and move on, and in order to get that, he had to sign a statement
that he would not disclose what happened after the agreement
was made. So, it's a gag order to prevent future customers from
finding out about the promises not delivered on. To me, that's
enough motivation to go to any other alternate. That said, there
are many other positive stories we've all heard over the years
from people. Now you just have to decide, which one outweighs
the other. People tend to talk proudly of what they bought and
have, so that tends to remove a little bit of objectivity when
discussing these things too. So it truly is a tough issue to
get to the bottom of when deciding which engine to go with.
I'd love to see a good alternative, but for today, for me, I'm
staying with my Lyc. Hopefully we'll get a few -10's who go
other routes and give honest feedback so we can see how the
decisions pan out. At least with Lyc, the statistics are pretty
standard and well known.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list for
asking
> him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10.
One
> of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a
> very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he wouldn't allow
> one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had
no
> problem with a potential customer being so. And no, he will never
give
> dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As far as
non-delivery,
> do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will
> find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery
dates.
> One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after
the
> engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year. Oh
and
> the "complete" firewall forward package apparently wasn't so complete
> either. I'm sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully won't
threaten
> him to take down the site.
>
>
>
> My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of
due
> diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a Lycoming
> after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs
> engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on
that
> list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several people
off
> list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already
ordered
> and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the
status quo.
>
>
>
> I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of
> producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow
up
> his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I am also
not
> saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after
> all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way
to
> tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some
> light on things. I have the full history of the email conversations
in
> question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is
> welcome to do so.
>
>
>
> James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines? If not,
I
> strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In reality
> the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine
package
> that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different, the fuel
> flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be much
> different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale
value,
> expect it to be much less.
>
>
>
> Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
>
>
>
> Michael Sausen
>
> RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> Recent RV-10 Build Activity
> <http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *James
Clark
> *Sent:* Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
>
>
>
> Micheal,
>
> It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
>
> For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as
> not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
> non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
>
> I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
>
> James
> ... no dog in this hunt
>
> On 7/17/06, *RV Builder (Michael Sausen) *<rvbuilder@sausen.net
> <mailto:rvbuilder@sausen.net>> wrote:
>
> Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
> shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
> Now how about some dyno numbers?
>
>
>
> Michael Sausen
>
> RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> Recent RV-10 Build Activity
> <http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>] *On Behalf Of
> *EAAINC@aol.com <mailto:EAAINC@aol.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
>
>
>
> I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
> 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this
year.
> Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
>
>
>
> Jan
>
>
>
>
> --
> This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
> james@nextupventures.com <mailto:james@nextupventures.com> .
>
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
See now, every time you post something bad you come back with one of
these. Very fair assessment, and should have been included the first
time...."GRIN"
You and I will have to get a beer at Oshkosh and really hash it out!
Dan
_____
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:24 AM
No, Jan does deliver his engines, eventually, and currently has the
only viable alternative package out there. He just tends to run things
off the cuff from what I've seen. He probably needs to get a good
business manager as it seems like he is doing everything there. Reminds
me of another company that has awesome products but no development
controls in place and delivery problems.
You have to keep in mind with his engines they are experimental and do
not have any version control. He makes changes to the design on the fly
as he sees they are needed. The engine he delivers one year are
different from the next because he always uses the current model year
engine. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but it does make it next to
impossible to develop any type of fleet history.
I gave his engine serious consideration. The decision to go with a
Lycoming was based on a couple of things.
1) No one could give me actual performance numbers for the engine.
All HP was calculated.
2) There was enough private feedback for me to be cautious.
3) This was new engine package and a new redrive design.
4) Jan would not give me a straight answer to any of my questions.
I hope the package turns out to be a winner on the RV-10. Right now
there are not enough choices!
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:29 AM
Sounds like the USA based version of Crossflow?
----- Original Message -----
From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <mailto:rvbuilder@sausen.net>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:16 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list
for asking him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for
the -10. One of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I
responded with a very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he
wouldn't allow one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he
apparently had no problem with a potential customer being so. And no,
he will never give dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As
far as non-delivery, do a search of websites of people that have his
engines and you will find plenty of instances where he did not meet
promised delivery dates. One of his best supporters even received the
supercharger well after the engine delivery (which was also late)
pushing things out a year. Oh and the "complete" firewall forward
package apparently wasn't so complete either. I'm sure Jan knows who
this is and he hopefully won't threaten him to take down the site.
My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any
type of due diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a
Lycoming after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying
Eggs engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on
that list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several
people off list to keep asking the hard questions because they had
already ordered and were afraid they would be denied service for
questioning the status quo.
I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best
chance of producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him
to grow up his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I
am also not saying that his engine does not meet the performance he
claims, after all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there
is no way to tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to
shed some light on things. I have the full history of the email
conversations in question and anyone who wants to contact me off list
for a copy is welcome to do so.
James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines?
If not, I strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In
reality the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine
package that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different,
the fuel flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be
much different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale
value, expect it to be much less.
Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with
Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes
across as not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are
accusing him of non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what
the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once.
I'm shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not
huh. Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have
turbocharged 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at
Oshkosh this year. Deliveries are available for December with 50%
deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Pilots need to know flap angle |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
I've only flown a -10 once, but I know in my RV-4 that I never position
the flaps anywhere but full up or full down. A position sensor is
unnecessary since it is easy to glance over your shoulder and see where
the flaps are.
I'm now officially an RV-10 builder. Ordered my empennage kit this
morning (trying to beat the Oshkosh rush)
Jack Phillips
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:45 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
If you're going to indicate at all, it would be nice to either
have the variable indication on a display, or at least
a 4 position indication to work with the Flap Position System
from Van's. Other than that, I wouldn't bother with a system
that only reads the two extremes. Personally, I'm not all
convinced an indicator system is a big deal on the -10 as it's
very easy to see where the flaps are positioned by a quick
glance. Others who thought it was a big deal that I didn't
have an indicator have actually changed opinions after going
for a flight in the plane. That said, a 4 position indicator
would be kind of cool if it were very cheap and very simple.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Bill DeRouchey wrote:
> Question for those lucky folks that are currently flying -
>
> How useful is it to know the flap angle from an RV-10 pilots
> perspective? I can easily provide a display to show a coarse setting
> (Ray Allen POS-12), a very exact setting (string pot) or simply do
> nothing. The do nothing choice corresponds to flaps all the way up or
> all the way down with a quick look out the window to confirm.
>
> Is knowing the intermediate angle useful? If so, how accurate?
>
> Bill DeRouchey
> N939SB, #40029, billderou@yahoo.com <mailto:billderou@yahoo.com>
> flyable in 3 days, DAR schedule?
>
_________________________________________________
Message 24
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| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
Upset, not really. No skin off my back either way. Just want to make
sure people are informed before risking $30k. I look at the RV-10 list
as an extended family and would hope people give me opinions, good or
bad, about something I may be looking into. It's up to everyone to make
their own decisions and no one should base anything on the ramblings of
one person. Just do the research.
I completely agree with what Dan said, other than the upset part. :)
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:29 AM
Not even close, Mike is just an upset individual when it comes to this
subject.
NSI and Crossflow are two that come to mind, Eggenfellner is in a whole
different class, as he has actually delivered on his word, where Lance
and others did not.
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:29 AM
Sounds like the USA based version of Crossflow?
----- Original Message -----
From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <mailto:rvbuilder@sausen.net>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:16 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list
for asking him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for
the -10. One of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I
responded with a very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he
wouldn't allow one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he
apparently had no problem with a potential customer being so. And no,
he will never give dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As
far as non-delivery, do a search of websites of people that have his
engines and you will find plenty of instances where he did not meet
promised delivery dates. One of his best supporters even received the
supercharger well after the engine delivery (which was also late)
pushing things out a year. Oh and the "complete" firewall forward
package apparently wasn't so complete either. I'm sure Jan knows who
this is and he hopefully won't threaten him to take down the site.
My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any
type of due diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a
Lycoming after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying
Eggs engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on
that list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several
people off list to keep asking the hard questions because they had
already ordered and were afraid they would be denied service for
questioning the status quo.
I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best
chance of producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him
to grow up his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I
am also not saying that his engine does not meet the performance he
claims, after all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there
is no way to tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to
shed some light on things. I have the full history of the email
conversations in question and anyone who wants to contact me off list
for a copy is welcome to do so.
James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines?
If not, I strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In
reality the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine
package that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different,
the fuel flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be
much different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale
value, expect it to be much less.
Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with
Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes
across as not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are
accusing him of non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what
the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once.
I'm shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not
huh. Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have
turbocharged 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at
Oshkosh this year. Deliveries are available for December with 50%
deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 25
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| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
More like a dysfunctional family! : )
TDT
do not archive
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:06 PM
Upset, not really. No skin off my back either way. Just want to make
sure people are informed before risking $30k. I look at the RV-10 list
as an extended family and would hope people give me opinions, good or
bad, about something I may be looking into. It's up to everyone to make
their own decisions and no one should base anything on the ramblings of
one person. Just do the research.
I completely agree with what Dan said, other than the upset part. :)
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:29 AM
Not even close, Mike is just an upset individual when it comes to this
subject.
NSI and Crossflow are two that come to mind, Eggenfellner is in a whole
different class, as he has actually delivered on his word, where Lance
and others did not.
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]
<mailto:%5bmailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com%5d> On Behalf Of
David McNeill
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:29 AM
Sounds like the USA based version of Crossflow?
----- Original Message -----
From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <mailto:rvbuilder@sausen.net>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:16 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list
for asking him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for
the -10. One of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I
responded with a very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he
wouldn't allow one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he
apparently had no problem with a potential customer being so. And no,
he will never give dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As
far as non-delivery, do a search of websites of people that have his
engines and you will find plenty of instances where he did not meet
promised delivery dates. One of his best supporters even received the
supercharger well after the engine delivery (which was also late)
pushing things out a year. Oh and the "complete" firewall forward
package apparently wasn't so complete either. I'm sure Jan knows who
this is and he hopefully won't threaten him to take down the site.
My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any
type of due diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a
Lycoming after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying
Eggs engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on
that list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several
people off list to keep asking the hard questions because they had
already ordered and were afraid they would be denied service for
questioning the status quo.
I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best
chance of producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him
to grow up his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I
am also not saying that his engine does not meet the performance he
claims, after all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there
is no way to tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to
shed some light on things. I have the full history of the email
conversations in question and anyone who wants to contact me off list
for a copy is welcome to do so.
James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines?
If not, I strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In
reality the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine
package that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different,
the fuel flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be
much different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale
value, expect it to be much less.
Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with
Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes
across as not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are
accusing him of non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what
the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once.
I'm shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not
huh. Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have
turbocharged 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at
Oshkosh this year. Deliveries are available for December with 50%
deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
Dan, I'm not tearing down anyone. As you will see from all of my
posts I think Jan does a good job. I'm just stating facts. The resale
thing is pretty much a given. You will have a smaller market reselling
anything that is a one off and it is unlikely you will get the same
value as what is considered standard. I do find it interesting that
below you say the performance numbers are right on for a Lycoming but
then in the same paragraph you say that there are no performance
numbers. Hmmmm. I whole heartedly expect someone to defend a purchase
they made so I'm glad you and others are defending the package. I went
with a package that defends itself based on hundreds of thousands of
running hours in aircraft. Was it a good choice maybe, I would probably
consider it a safe choice more than anything. I'm not expecting any
major unknowns which is what allows me to sleep well at night (pending
any $*^&$#! AD's). For me the Egg Subie still had too many unknowns,
not a bad thing if you really are behind experimenting, just not
something I felt comfortable with when flying my family around.
Anyway, I am sincerely glad that 15 RV-10 builders have ordered his
package and I anxiously await results and data from the first flying
conversions. This is the only way to get an alternative engine out
there and I salute those willing to be true experimenters. But in the
mean time the only thing we can go by are the facts. But get one thing
straight, I am not slamming Jan as I don't know the guy, I am not
slamming his products as I do not own anything he has ever built. I am
questioning his business practices and his performance numbers. You are
right on the money with the other vendors having delivery problems. The
difference is they have much more product out there and their problems
are the exception and not the rule.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:26 AM
Here we go again....
In all fairness to delivery dates, I can name every major vendor out
there that has slipped dates. I have paid in full for my Chelton with
harness and had the dates slipped on my harness from Direct to Avionics,
and the last time I called they had not even finalized the package.
Another one comes to mind is Tru-trak, I have had my servos on order
before May, and have been told several times they would be shipped in
the next few days, it is now July and I still do not have them. Does
this make me mad? No, just disappointed, but I planned for the delays
and in such I will get them and do not have to stress about it, and it
will be the same with the engine.
These small production numbers do not lend themselves well to
predictable delivery times, and as such, we need to be tolerant of them
and slips. One thing Jan has the ability to do well is communicate to
his customers. He is forth coming with changes and allows us to be part
of it. He has kept us informed of the steps along the way. It is an
experimental engine, that is currently being designed, so yes, there
will be delays. But all you have to do is call and he will give you his
best guess, and that is what it is a guess at that time because
unforeseen things come up, the PSRU change comes to mind. But these
delays end up in a better product.
As for the performance figures, they are right on with a Lycoming, and
since this is being sold as a Lycoming replacement, I would say that it
is living right up to expectations. Yes, the cost is the same in the
beginning, but during a re-build, you will get a brand new engine, for
less than it would cost to just do a top overhaul on a Lycoming.
As for the RV10 the package is too new to tell on performance numbers,
but once I am flying with it, I will have a FWF solution including a C/S
speed prop, that in total costs significantly less than a New Lycoming
FWF solution.
I would like to know where you got your information on the resale
numbers, because I am only aware of one sale with an E-Subaru, and that
was for the same amount a standard would sell for. I am not aware on any
other sales, but they could be out there.
The end result is this, in the alternative engine market Jan is the
leader for RV's. The other two have fallen flat on their face or have
gone out of business. I have been following this engine package for
years, and like what I see, and the progress that has been made. More
importantly, I trust Jan and his ability to deliver on the engine, and
if there are issues I am confident in his ability to fix them. This is
the alternative engine market, and something's have to be taken on faith
and your trust in the person.
We all jumped on the RV10 bandwagon, even before performance numbers
were truly known, and this was because we trust in Vans Aircraft and
their commitment to deliver a good product. Many of us ordered before
the kits had even begun being designed, but that was because we trusted
they would make it and make it right, and the delivery times might have
slipped, even as large as Vans is, they did slip on time in the early
kits. I imagine back in the early 80's, people were having the same
discussions about Van's and their ability to deliver, we just did not
have the internet to pontificate about it.
So in all reality, Mike get over it, the engine is not for you, we all
know it is not for you, but you do not have to tear down another persons
business, to make yourself feel better about your decision. All of the
vendors have suffered in delivery times, just get over it.
Dan Lloyd
40269 (N289DT)
Fuselage
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:17 AM
Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list for asking
him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10. One
of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a
very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he wouldn't allow
one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no
problem with a potential customer being so. And no, he will never give
dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As far as non-delivery,
do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will
find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates.
One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after the
engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year. Oh and
the "complete" firewall forward package apparently wasn't so complete
either. I'm sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully won't threaten
him to take down the site.
My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due
diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a Lycoming
after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs
engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on that
list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several people off
list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already ordered
and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the status
quo.
I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of
producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow up
his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I am also not
saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after
all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to
tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some
light on things. I have the full history of the email conversations in
question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is
welcome to do so.
James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines? If not, I
strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In reality
the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package
that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different, the fuel
flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be much
different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale value,
expect it to be much less.
Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as
not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section
in their client's default configuration. If you're using
HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text".
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Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
Thanks for the detailed response Michael.
No, I don't have a Subie on order. I am flying behind a Lycoming now and my
current project is a Lycoming (clone).
I simply didn't have the "history" you referenced and came across the
message and wondered what motivated the style of comment.
James
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
>
> Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list for asking
> him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10. One of
> his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a very
> straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he wouldn't allow one of his
> friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no problem with a
> potential customer being so. And no, he will never give dyno numbers. He
> doesn't feel it is necessary. As far as non-delivery, do a search of
> websites of people that have his engines and you will find plenty of
> instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates. One of his best
> supporters even received the supercharger well after the engine delivery
> (which was also late) pushing things out a year. Oh and the "complete"
> firewall forward package apparently wasn't so complete either. I'm sure Jan
> knows who this is and he hopefully won't threaten him to take down the site.
>
>
> My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due
> diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a Lycoming after
> spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs engine and
> hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on that list they were
> slammed back down. I was contacted by several people off list to keep
> asking the hard questions because they had already ordered and were afraid
> they would be denied service for questioning the status quo.
>
>
> I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of
> producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow up his
> business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I am also not saying
> that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after all no one
> has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to tell. I will
> say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some light on things. I
> have the full history of the email conversations in question and anyone who
> wants to contact me off list for a copy is welcome to do so.
>
>
> James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines? If not, I
> strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In reality the
> only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package that
> can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different, the fuel flows
> won't be much different, and the performance won't be much different from a
> Lycoming. What will be different is the resale value, expect it to be much
> less.
>
>
> Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
>
>
> Michael Sausen
>
> RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> Recent RV-10 Build Activity<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *James Clark
> *Sent:* Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
>
>
> Micheal,
>
> It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
>
> For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as not
> being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
> non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
>
> I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you request.
>
> James
> ... no dog in this hunt
>
> On 7/17/06, *RV Builder (Michael Sausen) *<rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
>
> Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
> shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh. Now
> how about some dyno numbers?
>
>
> Michael Sausen
>
> RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> Recent RV-10 Build Activity<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> ] *On Behalf Of *EAAINC@aol.com
> *Sent:* Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
>
>
> I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
> 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
> Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
>
>
> Jan
>
>
> --
> This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
> james@nextupventures.com .
>
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 29
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| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
If you have a Subaru engine, does that make your airplane all-wheel
drive? : )
I'm feeling a little punchy today . . . must be that Red Bull I had for
breakfast!
TDT
Do not archive
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:24 PM
Dan, I'm not tearing down anyone. As you will see from all of my
posts I think Jan does a good job. I'm just stating facts. The resale
thing is pretty much a given. You will have a smaller market reselling
anything that is a one off and it is unlikely you will get the same
value as what is considered standard. I do find it interesting that
below you say the performance numbers are right on for a Lycoming but
then in the same paragraph you say that there are no performance
numbers. Hmmmm. I whole heartedly expect someone to defend a purchase
they made so I'm glad you and others are defending the package. I went
with a package that defends itself based on hundreds of thousands of
running hours in aircraft. Was it a good choice maybe, I would probably
consider it a safe choice more than anything. I'm not expecting any
major unknowns which is what allows me to sleep well at night (pending
any $*^&$#! AD's). For me the Egg Subie still had too many unknowns,
not a bad thing if you really are behind experimenting, just not
something I felt comfortable with when flying my family around.
Anyway, I am sincerely glad that 15 RV-10 builders have ordered his
package and I anxiously await results and data from the first flying
conversions. This is the only way to get an alternative engine out
there and I salute those willing to be true experimenters. But in the
mean time the only thing we can go by are the facts. But get one thing
straight, I am not slamming Jan as I don't know the guy, I am not
slamming his products as I do not own anything he has ever built. I am
questioning his business practices and his performance numbers. You are
right on the money with the other vendors having delivery problems. The
difference is they have much more product out there and their problems
are the exception and not the rule.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:26 AM
Here we go again....
In all fairness to delivery dates, I can name every major vendor out
there that has slipped dates. I have paid in full for my Chelton with
harness and had the dates slipped on my harness from Direct to Avionics,
and the last time I called they had not even finalized the package.
Another one comes to mind is Tru-trak, I have had my servos on order
before May, and have been told several times they would be shipped in
the next few days, it is now July and I still do not have them. Does
this make me mad? No, just disappointed, but I planned for the delays
and in such I will get them and do not have to stress about it, and it
will be the same with the engine.
These small production numbers do not lend themselves well to
predictable delivery times, and as such, we need to be tolerant of them
and slips. One thing Jan has the ability to do well is communicate to
his customers. He is forth coming with changes and allows us to be part
of it. He has kept us informed of the steps along the way. It is an
experimental engine, that is currently being designed, so yes, there
will be delays. But all you have to do is call and he will give you his
best guess, and that is what it is a guess at that time because
unforeseen things come up, the PSRU change comes to mind. But these
delays end up in a better product.
As for the performance figures, they are right on with a Lycoming, and
since this is being sold as a Lycoming replacement, I would say that it
is living right up to expectations. Yes, the cost is the same in the
beginning, but during a re-build, you will get a brand new engine, for
less than it would cost to just do a top overhaul on a Lycoming.
As for the RV10 the package is too new to tell on performance numbers,
but once I am flying with it, I will have a FWF solution including a C/S
speed prop, that in total costs significantly less than a New Lycoming
FWF solution.
I would like to know where you got your information on the resale
numbers, because I am only aware of one sale with an E-Subaru, and that
was for the same amount a standard would sell for. I am not aware on any
other sales, but they could be out there.
The end result is this, in the alternative engine market Jan is the
leader for RV's. The other two have fallen flat on their face or have
gone out of business. I have been following this engine package for
years, and like what I see, and the progress that has been made. More
importantly, I trust Jan and his ability to deliver on the engine, and
if there are issues I am confident in his ability to fix them. This is
the alternative engine market, and something's have to be taken on faith
and your trust in the person.
We all jumped on the RV10 bandwagon, even before performance numbers
were truly known, and this was because we trust in Vans Aircraft and
their commitment to deliver a good product. Many of us ordered before
the kits had even begun being designed, but that was because we trusted
they would make it and make it right, and the delivery times might have
slipped, even as large as Vans is, they did slip on time in the early
kits. I imagine back in the early 80's, people were having the same
discussions about Van's and their ability to deliver, we just did not
have the internet to pontificate about it.
So in all reality, Mike get over it, the engine is not for you, we all
know it is not for you, but you do not have to tear down another persons
business, to make yourself feel better about your decision. All of the
vendors have suffered in delivery times, just get over it.
Dan Lloyd
40269 (N289DT)
Fuselage
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:17 AM
Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list for asking
him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10. One
of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a
very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he wouldn't allow
one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no
problem with a potential customer being so. And no, he will never give
dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As far as non-delivery,
do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will
find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates.
One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after the
engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year. Oh and
the "complete" firewall forward package apparently wasn't so complete
either. I'm sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully won't threaten
him to take down the site.
My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due
diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a Lycoming
after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs
engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on that
list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several people off
list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already ordered
and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the status
quo.
I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of
producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow up
his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I am also not
saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after
all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to
tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some
light on things. I have the full history of the email conversations in
question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is
welcome to do so.
James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines? If not, I
strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In reality
the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package
that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different, the fuel
flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be much
different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale value,
expect it to be much less.
Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as
not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
Well......I hesitate because my experience was limited and long ago,
but.....
When I was researching an engine for the -7 that got turned into a -10, I
spent time on the Egg list, lurking. Finally I, too, asked questions about
performance numbers. I also asked when questions posed by others were ever
going to get a straight answer, for I had grown increasingly uncomfortable
with the lack thereof. I got slammed by Jan, publicly denounced for not
having faith in the product. Etc. Etc. "It just works" is not a quote,
but pretty close. Given that I was researching an engine that was going
into an airplane, not a car, I figured that if I was going to get that type
of response, I'd leave it up to the true believers and those with enough
engineering background to do their own calculations. I, too, have been
pulling for someone to make it successfully as an alternative, but not with
an attitude like I found on the Egg site. His is a product destined for an
environment that deserves careful testing and honesty with customers. I
have a certain amount of faith, shaken by the crank issues, in current
certified engine technology, but Jan got an F in the faith department with
his bludgeoning prose and public scorn for those who ask the correct
questions. I don't know about delivery issues and other problems, and those
can be expected, but they need to be handled with openness. We are a
forgiving bunch. We know the problems that exist for small companies trying
to get a complex product out the door. I guess if you're intent on being an
Egg customer, then you must be convinced that the engine is what it's
claimed to be by Egg. In some areas of life, I do not feel I have enough
information and smarts to be an early adopter. Good luck! I hope it all
works out, because we do need alternatives.
John Jessen
328
_____
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:26 AM
Here we go again....
In all fairness to delivery dates, I can name every major vendor out there
that has slipped dates. I have paid in full for my Chelton with harness and
had the dates slipped on my harness from Direct to Avionics, and the last
time I called they had not even finalized the package. Another one comes to
mind is Tru-trak, I have had my servos on order before May, and have been
told several times they would be shipped in the next few days, it is now
July and I still do not have them. Does this make me mad? No, just
disappointed, but I planned for the delays and in such I will get them and
do not have to stress about it, and it will be the same with the engine.
These small production numbers do not lend themselves well to predictable
delivery times, and as such, we need to be tolerant of them and slips. One
thing Jan has the ability to do well is communicate to his customers. He is
forth coming with changes and allows us to be part of it. He has kept us
informed of the steps along the way. It is an experimental engine, that is
currently being designed, so yes, there will be delays. But all you have to
do is call and he will give you his best guess, and that is what it is a
guess at that time because unforeseen things come up, the PSRU change comes
to mind. But these delays end up in a better product.
As for the performance figures, they are right on with a Lycoming, and since
this is being sold as a Lycoming replacement, I would say that it is living
right up to expectations. Yes, the cost is the same in the beginning, but
during a re-build, you will get a brand new engine, for less than it would
cost to just do a top overhaul on a Lycoming.
As for the RV10 the package is too new to tell on performance numbers, but
once I am flying with it, I will have a FWF solution including a C/S speed
prop, that in total costs significantly less than a New Lycoming FWF
solution.
I would like to know where you got your information on the resale numbers,
because I am only aware of one sale with an E-Subaru, and that was for the
same amount a standard would sell for. I am not aware on any other sales,
but they could be out there.
The end result is this, in the alternative engine market Jan is the leader
for RV's. The other two have fallen flat on their face or have gone out of
business. I have been following this engine package for years, and like what
I see, and the progress that has been made. More importantly, I trust Jan
and his ability to deliver on the engine, and if there are issues I am
confident in his ability to fix them. This is the alternative engine market,
and something's have to be taken on faith and your trust in the person.
We all jumped on the RV10 bandwagon, even before performance numbers were
truly known, and this was because we trust in Vans Aircraft and their
commitment to deliver a good product. Many of us ordered before the kits had
even begun being designed, but that was because we trusted they would make
it and make it right, and the delivery times might have slipped, even as
large as Vans is, they did slip on time in the early kits. I imagine back in
the early 80's, people were having the same discussions about Van's and
their ability to deliver, we just did not have the internet to pontificate
about it.
So in all reality, Mike get over it, the engine is not for you, we all know
it is not for you, but you do not have to tear down another persons
business, to make yourself feel better about your decision. All of the
vendors have suffered in delivery times, just get over it.
Dan Lloyd
40269 (N289DT)
Fuselage
_____
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:17 AM
Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list for asking him
to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10. One of his
cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a very
straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he wouldn't allow one of his
friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no problem with a
potential customer being so. And no, he will never give dyno numbers. He
doesn't feel it is necessary. As far as non-delivery, do a search of
websites of people that have his engines and you will find plenty of
instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates. One of his best
supporters even received the supercharger well after the engine delivery
(which was also late) pushing things out a year. Oh and the "complete"
firewall forward package apparently wasn't so complete either. I'm sure Jan
knows who this is and he hopefully won't threaten him to take down the site.
My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due
diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a Lycoming after
spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs engine and
hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on that list they were
slammed back down. I was contacted by several people off list to keep
asking the hard questions because they had already ordered and were afraid
they would be denied service for questioning the status quo.
I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of
producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow up his
business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I am also not saying
that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after all no one
has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to tell. I will
say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some light on things. I
have the full history of the email conversations in question and anyone who
wants to contact me off list for a copy is welcome to do so.
James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines? If not, I
strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In reality the
only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package that
can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different, the fuel flows
won't be much different, and the performance won't be much different from a
Lycoming. What will be different is the resale value, expect it to be much
less.
Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22> Recent RV-10
Build Activity
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as not
being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm shocked!
Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh. Now how about
some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22> Recent RV-10
Build Activity
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com> ] On Behalf Of EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged 220HP
RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 31
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|
| Subject: | Pilots need to know flap angle |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
At night? You're able to see well enough at night? In the rain?
And, congratulations, BTW! What's your number?
John Jessen
~328
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillips, Jack
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:04 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack"
--> <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
I've only flown a -10 once, but I know in my RV-4 that I never position the
flaps anywhere but full up or full down. A position sensor is unnecessary
since it is easy to glance over your shoulder and see where the flaps are.
I'm now officially an RV-10 builder. Ordered my empennage kit this morning
(trying to beat the Oshkosh rush)
Jack Phillips
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:45 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
If you're going to indicate at all, it would be nice to either have the
variable indication on a display, or at least a 4 position indication to
work with the Flap Position System from Van's. Other than that, I wouldn't
bother with a system that only reads the two extremes. Personally, I'm not
all convinced an indicator system is a big deal on the -10 as it's very easy
to see where the flaps are positioned by a quick glance. Others who thought
it was a big deal that I didn't have an indicator have actually changed
opinions after going for a flight in the plane. That said, a 4 position
indicator would be kind of cool if it were very cheap and very simple.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Bill DeRouchey wrote:
> Question for those lucky folks that are currently flying -
>
> How useful is it to know the flap angle from an RV-10 pilots
> perspective? I can easily provide a display to show a coarse setting
> (Ray Allen POS-12), a very exact setting (string pot) or simply do
> nothing. The do nothing choice corresponds to flaps all the way up or
> all the way down with a quick look out the window to confirm.
>
> Is knowing the intermediate angle useful? If so, how accurate?
>
> Bill DeRouchey
> N939SB, #40029, billderou@yahoo.com <mailto:billderou@yahoo.com>
> flyable in 3 days, DAR schedule?
>
_________________________________________________
Message 32
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|
| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
I think I heard he went out of business. Not sure though
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Dawson-Townsend
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:52 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend"
--> <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
Anybody ever hear from the fellow in Ontario who is supposedly building
a '10 with Corvette power?
I still like my idea of two Thielert diesels driving counter-rotating
concentric-shaft props . . .
Along that line, I did ask 1.5 or 2 years ago at SnF the fellows from
SMA about their diesel. $50K and they weren't too interested in
kitbuilders. They have had some issues introducing that engine, too.
The "formerly known as Bombardier" V-Engine people might be a prospect
if they can get to the next step, too . . .
TDT
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:42 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I do have a builder in my area that had extensive problems with what he
was delivered vs. what he was promised. He was constantly updating me
with how nasty his problems were becoming. Unfortunately, he can now
not talk about it because they were rectified by a return of the engine
and a partial refund so he could get a Lyc.
and move on, and in order to get that, he had to sign a statement that
he would not disclose what happened after the agreement was made. So,
it's a gag order to prevent future customers from finding out about the
promises not delivered on. To me, that's enough motivation to go to any
other alternate. That said, there are many other positive stories we've
all heard over the years from people. Now you just have to decide,
which one outweighs the other. People tend to talk proudly of what they
bought and have, so that tends to remove a little bit of objectivity
when discussing these things too. So it truly is a tough issue to get
to the bottom of when deciding which engine to go with.
I'd love to see a good alternative, but for today, for me, I'm staying
with my Lyc. Hopefully we'll get a few -10's who go other routes and
give honest feedback so we can see how the decisions pan out. At least
with Lyc, the statistics are pretty standard and well known.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list for
asking
> him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10.
One
> of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a
> very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he wouldn't allow
> one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had
no
> problem with a potential customer being so. And no, he will never
give
> dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As far as
non-delivery,
> do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will
> find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery
dates.
> One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after
the
> engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year. Oh
and
> the "complete" firewall forward package apparently wasn't so complete
> either. I'm sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully won't
threaten
> him to take down the site.
>
>
>
> My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of
due
> diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a Lycoming
> after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs
> engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on
that
> list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several people
off
> list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already
ordered
> and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the
status quo.
>
>
>
> I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of
> producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow
up
> his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I am also
not
> saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after
> all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way
to
> tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some
> light on things. I have the full history of the email conversations
in
> question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is
> welcome to do so.
>
>
>
> James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines? If not,
I
> strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In reality
> the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine
package
> that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different, the fuel
> flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be much
> different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale
value,
> expect it to be much less.
>
>
>
> Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
>
>
>
> Michael Sausen
>
> RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> Recent RV-10 Build Activity
> <http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *James
Clark
> *Sent:* Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
>
>
>
> Micheal,
>
> It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
>
> For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as
> not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
> non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
>
> I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
>
> James
> ... no dog in this hunt
>
> On 7/17/06, *RV Builder (Michael Sausen) *<rvbuilder@sausen.net
> <mailto:rvbuilder@sausen.net>> wrote:
>
> Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
> shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
> Now how about some dyno numbers?
>
>
>
> Michael Sausen
>
> RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> Recent RV-10 Build Activity
> <http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>] *On Behalf Of
> *EAAINC@aol.com <mailto:EAAINC@aol.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
>
>
>
> I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
> 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this
year.
> Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
>
>
>
> Jan
>
>
>
>
> --
> This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
> james@nextupventures.com <mailto:james@nextupventures.com> .
>
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
I'll by the beer and you by the Tequila!
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:01 AM
See now, every time you post something bad you come back with one of
these. Very fair assessment, and should have been included the first
time...."GRIN"
You and I will have to get a beer at Oshkosh and really hash it out!
Dan
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:24 AM
No, Jan does deliver his engines, eventually, and currently has the
only viable alternative package out there. He just tends to run things
off the cuff from what I've seen. He probably needs to get a good
business manager as it seems like he is doing everything there. Reminds
me of another company that has awesome products but no development
controls in place and delivery problems.
You have to keep in mind with his engines they are experimental and do
not have any version control. He makes changes to the design on the fly
as he sees they are needed. The engine he delivers one year are
different from the next because he always uses the current model year
engine. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but it does make it next to
impossible to develop any type of fleet history.
I gave his engine serious consideration. The decision to go with a
Lycoming was based on a couple of things.
1) No one could give me actual performance numbers for the engine.
All HP was calculated.
2) There was enough private feedback for me to be cautious.
3) This was new engine package and a new redrive design.
4) Jan would not give me a straight answer to any of my questions.
I hope the package turns out to be a winner on the RV-10. Right now
there are not enough choices!
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:29 AM
Sounds like the USA based version of Crossflow?
----- Original Message -----
From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <mailto:rvbuilder@sausen.net>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:16 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list
for asking him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for
the -10. One of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I
responded with a very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he
wouldn't allow one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he
apparently had no problem with a potential customer being so. And no,
he will never give dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As
far as non-delivery, do a search of websites of people that have his
engines and you will find plenty of instances where he did not meet
promised delivery dates. One of his best supporters even received the
supercharger well after the engine delivery (which was also late)
pushing things out a year. Oh and the "complete" firewall forward
package apparently wasn't so complete either. I'm sure Jan knows who
this is and he hopefully won't threaten him to take down the site.
My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any
type of due diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a
Lycoming after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying
Eggs engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on
that list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several
people off list to keep asking the hard questions because they had
already ordered and were afraid they would be denied service for
questioning the status quo.
I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best
chance of producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him
to grow up his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I
am also not saying that his engine does not meet the performance he
claims, after all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there
is no way to tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to
shed some light on things. I have the full history of the email
conversations in question and anyone who wants to contact me off list
for a copy is welcome to do so.
James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines?
If not, I strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In
reality the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine
package that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different,
the fuel flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be
much different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale
value, expect it to be much less.
Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with
Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes
across as not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are
accusing him of non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what
the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once.
I'm shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not
huh. Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have
turbocharged 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at
Oshkosh this year. Deliveries are available for December with 50%
deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Pilots need to know flap angle |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
OK, John - you got me with that one. My RV-4 has only VFR instruments,
so I don't fly it in serious IFR at night. I have flown it in some
pretty heavy rain in the daytime (no more than I have to though as I
don't like flying a wooden prop in rain). Dark is not a problem as I
have black marks on the flap leading edges that show against the white
wings, even in the dark, as long as there is some moonlight. Actually,
even if you can't see it you can still get an idea of the flap position
by listening to the flap motor since it makes a different sound once the
flaps reach the stop (either stop).
I haven't gotten my number yet - just faxed Van's my order this morning
and they haven't gotten back to me. I suppose they are well into the
700's now.
Jack Phillips
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:55 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
At night? You're able to see well enough at night? In the rain?
And, congratulations, BTW! What's your number?
John Jessen
~328
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillips,
Jack
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:04 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack"
--> <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
I've only flown a -10 once, but I know in my RV-4 that I never position
the
flaps anywhere but full up or full down. A position sensor is
unnecessary
since it is easy to glance over your shoulder and see where the flaps
are.
I'm now officially an RV-10 builder. Ordered my empennage kit this
morning
(trying to beat the Oshkosh rush)
Jack Phillips
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:45 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
If you're going to indicate at all, it would be nice to either have the
variable indication on a display, or at least a 4 position indication to
work with the Flap Position System from Van's. Other than that, I
wouldn't
bother with a system that only reads the two extremes. Personally, I'm
not
all convinced an indicator system is a big deal on the -10 as it's very
easy
to see where the flaps are positioned by a quick glance. Others who
thought
it was a big deal that I didn't have an indicator have actually changed
opinions after going for a flight in the plane. That said, a 4 position
indicator would be kind of cool if it were very cheap and very simple.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Bill DeRouchey wrote:
> Question for those lucky folks that are currently flying -
>
> How useful is it to know the flap angle from an RV-10 pilots
> perspective? I can easily provide a display to show a coarse setting
> (Ray Allen POS-12), a very exact setting (string pot) or simply do
> nothing. The do nothing choice corresponds to flaps all the way up or
> all the way down with a quick look out the window to confirm.
>
> Is knowing the intermediate angle useful? If so, how accurate?
>
> Bill DeRouchey
> N939SB, #40029, billderou@yahoo.com <mailto:billderou@yahoo.com>
> flyable in 3 days, DAR schedule?
>
_________________________________________________
_________________________________________________
Message 35
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| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "David Hertner" <effectus@rogers.com>
I'm the fellow from Ontario.
I did a whole lot of research into the weight issues when looking to put
a Corvette engine in my '10. Just couldn't make it work when all was said
and done. At lease not without having to get into adding weight in the tail.
Sexy motor for sure but, and I hate to say it TOO much horsepower and too
big a temptation to utilize it. I'd still like to have my '10 powered by the
'General'. The "Corvette" statement has been removed from the Wiki site for
a while now.
I am looking into an inline 4 cylinder solution that would produce 250
hp and a geared PSRU that would be hydraulic prop compatible. Lots of work
ahead in putting a reliable package together for RVs. Work is progressing.
I'd like to chime in a little as well on the Egg subarus. I have been
reading alternative engine forums for years now and I keep hearing the same
thing time and again. We are all looking for an alternative to Lycoming
(except for the purists) that will be accompanied by dyno data from the
specific purchased engine and to receive the engine when promised. You would
think that vendors would get that!
You never know, there may be a new player on the block before long who
has at heart the needs of builders just like the ones on this list.
Dave Hertner
"Under Promise and Over Deliver"
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:51 AM
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend"
> <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
>
>
> Anybody ever hear from the fellow in Ontario who is supposedly building
> a '10 with Corvette power?
>
> I still like my idea of two Thielert diesels driving counter-rotating
> concentric-shaft props . . .
>
> Along that line, I did ask 1.5 or 2 years ago at SnF the fellows from
> SMA about their diesel. $50K and they weren't too interested in
> kitbuilders. They have had some issues introducing that engine, too.
>
> The "formerly known as Bombardier" V-Engine people might be a prospect
> if they can get to the next step, too . . .
>
> TDT
> do not archive
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:42 AM
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> I do have a builder in my area that had extensive problems with
> what he was delivered vs. what he was promised. He was constantly
> updating me with how nasty his problems were becoming. Unfortunately,
> he can now not talk about it because they were rectified by a
> return of the engine and a partial refund so he could get a Lyc.
> and move on, and in order to get that, he had to sign a statement
> that he would not disclose what happened after the agreement
> was made. So, it's a gag order to prevent future customers from
> finding out about the promises not delivered on. To me, that's
> enough motivation to go to any other alternate. That said, there
> are many other positive stories we've all heard over the years
> from people. Now you just have to decide, which one outweighs
> the other. People tend to talk proudly of what they bought and
> have, so that tends to remove a little bit of objectivity when
> discussing these things too. So it truly is a tough issue to
> get to the bottom of when deciding which engine to go with.
> I'd love to see a good alternative, but for today, for me, I'm
> staying with my Lyc. Hopefully we'll get a few -10's who go
> other routes and give honest feedback so we can see how the
> decisions pan out. At least with Lyc, the statistics are pretty
> standard and well known.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>> Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list for
> asking
>> him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10.
> One
>> of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a
>> very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he wouldn't allow
>
>> one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had
> no
>> problem with a potential customer being so. And no, he will never
> give
>> dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As far as
> non-delivery,
>> do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will
>> find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery
> dates.
>> One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after
> the
>> engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year. Oh
> and
>> the "complete" firewall forward package apparently wasn't so complete
>> either. I'm sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully won't
> threaten
>> him to take down the site.
>>
>>
>>
>> My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of
> due
>> diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a Lycoming
>> after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs
>> engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on
> that
>> list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several people
> off
>> list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already
> ordered
>> and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the
> status quo.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of
>> producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow
> up
>> his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I am also
> not
>> saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after
>> all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way
> to
>> tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some
>> light on things. I have the full history of the email conversations
> in
>> question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is
>> welcome to do so.
>>
>>
>>
>> James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines? If not,
> I
>> strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In reality
>> the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine
> package
>> that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different, the fuel
>
>> flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be much
>> different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale
> value,
>> expect it to be much less.
>>
>>
>>
>> Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael Sausen
>>
>> RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
>>
>> Do Not Archive
>>
>> Recent RV-10 Build Activity
>> <http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
>>
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *James
> Clark
>> *Sent:* Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
>>
>>
>>
>> Micheal,
>>
>> It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
>>
>> For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as
>> not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
>
>> non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
>>
>> I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
> request.
>>
>> James
>> ... no dog in this hunt
>>
>> On 7/17/06, *RV Builder (Michael Sausen) *<rvbuilder@sausen.net
>> <mailto:rvbuilder@sausen.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
>> shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
>
>> Now how about some dyno numbers?
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael Sausen
>>
>> RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
>>
>> Do Not Archive
>>
>> Recent RV-10 Build Activity
>> <http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
>>
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>] *On Behalf Of
>> *EAAINC@aol.com <mailto:EAAINC@aol.com>
>> *Sent:* Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
>>
>>
>>
>> I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
>
>> 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this
> year.
>> Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
>> james@nextupventures.com <mailto:james@nextupventures.com> .
>>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
>
>
Message 36
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|
| Subject: | Pilots need to know flap angle |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
Or he flies with Night Vision goggles . . .
TDT
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillips,
Jack
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 1:27 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack"
<Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
OK, John - you got me with that one. My RV-4 has only VFR instruments,
so I don't fly it in serious IFR at night. I have flown it in some
pretty heavy rain in the daytime (no more than I have to though as I
don't like flying a wooden prop in rain). Dark is not a problem as I
have black marks on the flap leading edges that show against the white
wings, even in the dark, as long as there is some moonlight. Actually,
even if you can't see it you can still get an idea of the flap position
by listening to the flap motor since it makes a different sound once the
flaps reach the stop (either stop).
I haven't gotten my number yet - just faxed Van's my order this morning
and they haven't gotten back to me. I suppose they are well into the
700's now.
Jack Phillips
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:55 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
At night? You're able to see well enough at night? In the rain?
And, congratulations, BTW! What's your number?
John Jessen
~328
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillips,
Jack
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:04 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack"
--> <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
I've only flown a -10 once, but I know in my RV-4 that I never position
the
flaps anywhere but full up or full down. A position sensor is
unnecessary
since it is easy to glance over your shoulder and see where the flaps
are.
I'm now officially an RV-10 builder. Ordered my empennage kit this
morning
(trying to beat the Oshkosh rush)
Jack Phillips
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:45 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
If you're going to indicate at all, it would be nice to either have the
variable indication on a display, or at least a 4 position indication to
work with the Flap Position System from Van's. Other than that, I
wouldn't
bother with a system that only reads the two extremes. Personally, I'm
not
all convinced an indicator system is a big deal on the -10 as it's very
easy
to see where the flaps are positioned by a quick glance. Others who
thought
it was a big deal that I didn't have an indicator have actually changed
opinions after going for a flight in the plane. That said, a 4 position
indicator would be kind of cool if it were very cheap and very simple.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Bill DeRouchey wrote:
> Question for those lucky folks that are currently flying -
>
> How useful is it to know the flap angle from an RV-10 pilots
> perspective? I can easily provide a display to show a coarse setting
> (Ray Allen POS-12), a very exact setting (string pot) or simply do
> nothing. The do nothing choice corresponds to flaps all the way up or
> all the way down with a quick look out the window to confirm.
>
> Is knowing the intermediate angle useful? If so, how accurate?
>
> Bill DeRouchey
> N939SB, #40029, billderou@yahoo.com <mailto:billderou@yahoo.com>
> flyable in 3 days, DAR schedule?
>
_________________________________________________
_________________________________________________
Message 37
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| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
I used to dream that my Yamaha-built V6 in my old Taurus SHO would work
in an airplane, but it's probably too heavy, too. That engine was
bullet-proof. Plus it sounded like a sweet motorcycle when you took it
to high revs . . .
TDT
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Hertner
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 1:37 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "David Hertner" <effectus@rogers.com>
I'm the fellow from Ontario.
I did a whole lot of research into the weight issues when looking to
put
a Corvette engine in my '10. Just couldn't make it work when all was
said
and done. At lease not without having to get into adding weight in the
tail.
Sexy motor for sure but, and I hate to say it TOO much horsepower and
too
big a temptation to utilize it. I'd still like to have my '10 powered by
the
'General'. The "Corvette" statement has been removed from the Wiki site
for
a while now.
I am looking into an inline 4 cylinder solution that would produce
250
hp and a geared PSRU that would be hydraulic prop compatible. Lots of
work
ahead in putting a reliable package together for RVs. Work is
progressing.
I'd like to chime in a little as well on the Egg subarus. I have
been
reading alternative engine forums for years now and I keep hearing the
same
thing time and again. We are all looking for an alternative to Lycoming
(except for the purists) that will be accompanied by dyno data from the
specific purchased engine and to receive the engine when promised. You
would
think that vendors would get that!
You never know, there may be a new player on the block before long
who
has at heart the needs of builders just like the ones on this list.
Dave Hertner
"Under Promise and Over Deliver"
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:51 AM
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend"
> <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
>
>
> Anybody ever hear from the fellow in Ontario who is supposedly
building
> a '10 with Corvette power?
>
> I still like my idea of two Thielert diesels driving counter-rotating
> concentric-shaft props . . .
>
> Along that line, I did ask 1.5 or 2 years ago at SnF the fellows from
> SMA about their diesel. $50K and they weren't too interested in
> kitbuilders. They have had some issues introducing that engine, too.
>
> The "formerly known as Bombardier" V-Engine people might be a prospect
> if they can get to the next step, too . . .
>
> TDT
> do not archive
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:42 AM
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> I do have a builder in my area that had extensive problems with
> what he was delivered vs. what he was promised. He was constantly
> updating me with how nasty his problems were becoming. Unfortunately,
> he can now not talk about it because they were rectified by a
> return of the engine and a partial refund so he could get a Lyc.
> and move on, and in order to get that, he had to sign a statement
> that he would not disclose what happened after the agreement
> was made. So, it's a gag order to prevent future customers from
> finding out about the promises not delivered on. To me, that's
> enough motivation to go to any other alternate. That said, there
> are many other positive stories we've all heard over the years
> from people. Now you just have to decide, which one outweighs
> the other. People tend to talk proudly of what they bought and
> have, so that tends to remove a little bit of objectivity when
> discussing these things too. So it truly is a tough issue to
> get to the bottom of when deciding which engine to go with.
> I'd love to see a good alternative, but for today, for me, I'm
> staying with my Lyc. Hopefully we'll get a few -10's who go
> other routes and give honest feedback so we can see how the
> decisions pan out. At least with Lyc, the statistics are pretty
> standard and well known.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>> Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list for
> asking
>> him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10.
> One
>> of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a
>> very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he wouldn't
allow
>
>> one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had
> no
>> problem with a potential customer being so. And no, he will never
> give
>> dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As far as
> non-delivery,
>> do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will
>> find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery
> dates.
>> One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after
> the
>> engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year. Oh
> and
>> the "complete" firewall forward package apparently wasn't so complete
>> either. I'm sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully won't
> threaten
>> him to take down the site.
>>
>>
>>
>> My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of
> due
>> diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a Lycoming
>> after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs
>> engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on
> that
>> list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several people
> off
>> list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already
> ordered
>> and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the
> status quo.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of
>> producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow
> up
>> his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I am also
> not
>> saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after
>> all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way
> to
>> tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some
>> light on things. I have the full history of the email conversations
> in
>> question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is
>> welcome to do so.
>>
>>
>>
>> James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines? If
not,
> I
>> strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In reality
>> the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine
> package
>> that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different, the
fuel
>
>> flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be much
>> different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale
> value,
>> expect it to be much less.
>>
>>
>>
>> Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael Sausen
>>
>> RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
>>
>> Do Not Archive
>>
>> Recent RV-10 Build Activity
>> <http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
>>
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *James
> Clark
>> *Sent:* Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
>>
>>
>>
>> Micheal,
>>
>> It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
>>
>> For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as
>> not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him
of
>
>> non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts
are?
>>
>> I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
> request.
>>
>> James
>> ... no dog in this hunt
>>
>> On 7/17/06, *RV Builder (Michael Sausen) *<rvbuilder@sausen.net
>> <mailto:rvbuilder@sausen.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
>> shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
>
>> Now how about some dyno numbers?
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael Sausen
>>
>> RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
>>
>> Do Not Archive
>>
>> Recent RV-10 Build Activity
>> <http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
>>
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>] *On Behalf Of
>> *EAAINC@aol.com <mailto:EAAINC@aol.com>
>> *Sent:* Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
>>
>>
>>
>> I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have
turbocharged
>
>> 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this
> year.
>> Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
>> james@nextupventures.com <mailto:james@nextupventures.com> .
>>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
>
>
Message 38
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|
| Subject: | Pilots need to know flap angle |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
Just got the number. #40610
Jack Phillips
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:55 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
At night? You're able to see well enough at night? In the rain?
And, congratulations, BTW! What's your number?
John Jessen
~328
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillips,
Jack
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:04 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack"
--> <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
I've only flown a -10 once, but I know in my RV-4 that I never position
the
flaps anywhere but full up or full down. A position sensor is
unnecessary
since it is easy to glance over your shoulder and see where the flaps
are.
I'm now officially an RV-10 builder. Ordered my empennage kit this
morning
(trying to beat the Oshkosh rush)
Jack Phillips
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:45 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
If you're going to indicate at all, it would be nice to either have the
variable indication on a display, or at least a 4 position indication to
work with the Flap Position System from Van's. Other than that, I
wouldn't
bother with a system that only reads the two extremes. Personally, I'm
not
all convinced an indicator system is a big deal on the -10 as it's very
easy
to see where the flaps are positioned by a quick glance. Others who
thought
it was a big deal that I didn't have an indicator have actually changed
opinions after going for a flight in the plane. That said, a 4 position
indicator would be kind of cool if it were very cheap and very simple.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Bill DeRouchey wrote:
> Question for those lucky folks that are currently flying -
>
> How useful is it to know the flap angle from an RV-10 pilots
> perspective? I can easily provide a display to show a coarse setting
> (Ray Allen POS-12), a very exact setting (string pot) or simply do
> nothing. The do nothing choice corresponds to flaps all the way up or
> all the way down with a quick look out the window to confirm.
>
> Is knowing the intermediate angle useful? If so, how accurate?
>
> Bill DeRouchey
> N939SB, #40029, billderou@yahoo.com <mailto:billderou@yahoo.com>
> flyable in 3 days, DAR schedule?
>
_________________________________________________
_________________________________________________
Message 39
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|
| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Brian Sponcil" <bsponcil@belinblank.org>
For those of us just starting, there may be a diesel option around when
we're shopping for motors.
See:
http://web.thielert.com/typo3/index.php?id=660&backPID=660&tt_news=625&L=1
As for the EGG-Subie, the main disadvantage is the relative expense. I can
get a decent, albeit used, lycosaur (accessories included) for quite a bit
less than Jan's offering. Yes, overhauls are cheap but how long is it going
to take to run the subaru out? I guess for me, if you're going to go
alternative, the product needs to be compelling on either performance or
price and I don't think the Subaru engine is significantly different on
either. IMHO, of course.
-Brian
#40497
N211BD
Iowa City, IA
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:51 AM
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend"
> <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
>
>
> Anybody ever hear from the fellow in Ontario who is supposedly building
> a '10 with Corvette power?
>
> I still like my idea of two Thielert diesels driving counter-rotating
> concentric-shaft props . . .
Message 40
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|
| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
James, thanks for calling BS on me BTW. I'm always happy to have
someone question a statement on the list as there is waaaay too much
fluff thrown around on the net. I TRY to have facts when I post as I
don't like it when people point to me and say he's full of it. :) Of
course no one is perfect and I can always rely on John, Dan, and others
to point out the errors of my ways and I will always be the first to
stand up and say I'm wrong. I just try to make sure it doesn't happen
very often. ;-)
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:47 AM
Thanks for the detailed response Michael.
No, I don't have a Subie on order. I am flying behind a Lycoming now and
my current project is a Lycoming (clone).
I simply didn't have the "history" you referenced and came across the
message and wondered what motivated the style of comment.
James
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list for asking
him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10. One
of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a
very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he wouldn't allow
one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no
problem with a potential customer being so. And no, he will never give
dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As far as non-delivery,
do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will
find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates.
One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after the
engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year. Oh and
the "complete" firewall forward package apparently wasn't so complete
either. I'm sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully won't threaten
him to take down the site.
My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due
diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a Lycoming
after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs
engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on that
list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several people off
list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already ordered
and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the status
quo.
I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of
producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow up
his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I am also not
saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after
all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to
tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some
light on things. I have the full history of the email conversations in
question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is
welcome to do so.
James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines? If not, I
strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In reality
the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package
that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different, the fuel
flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be much
different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale value,
expect it to be much less.
Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as
not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com> ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 41
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|
| Subject: | Another useful tool - Mini-Drill |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "KiloPapa" <kilopapa@antelecom.net>
Attached is a pic of a tool I have found very useful. It is a Chicago Pneumatic
CP7300 1/4" mini-drill. It is small and lightweight and works quite nicely
for final drilling the many #30 and #40 holes. Runs around $85 as I recall.
Kevin
40494
empennage
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=47951#47951
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dcp_2812_458.jpg
Message 42
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|
| Subject: | Door P-Seal problem |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "KiloPapa" <kilopapa@antelecom.net>
Howdy,
If you have the finish kit you might want to check out the Door P-Seal bundle.
(See attached pic) I found the tubular part of the Door P-Seal had bonded to
itself at many of the bends due to the tight bundle.
I had about a 3 month delay between receipt of kit and inventory but if I had not
noticed the problem it could have set on a shelf in this condition much longer.
I tried to work them loose by hand, tried a small dowel with a blunt end, and used
low pressure air to no avail. I finally sent it back to Van's for exchange
and included a note about the problem and suggested they not wrap it so tight
as to cause the kinks. I received no response to the note and the replacement
P-Seal was bundled just the same and the tube was again bonded at many of the
bends. This time however I was able to work them loose by hand and have stored
it in a much larger diameter coil so as to avoid the kinks.
If you have this item I recommend you do the same.
Kevin
40494
Empennage
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=47960#47960
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p_seal_bundle_pic_134.jpg
Message 43
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| Subject: | RE: Do Not Archive |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "KiloPapa" <kilopapa@antelecom.net>
FYI,
I had asked Matt about the "do not archive" postscript to postings and here is
his reply:
Hello,
When the character string "do not archive" is found anywhere in an incoming message,
the system will not append the message to the specific List's Archive file.
The message is forwarded to the BBS, as well as the List Browse, and Digest,
however. Basically, its to keep the archives clean for better searching.
Matt Dralle
_________________
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=47970#47970
Message 44
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| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
I'll just chime in with my .02.....I came to flying after a long love
affair with drag racing. I built my share of race engines, and saw the
technology steadily improve over about a 10 year period. Some engines
were built to run hard and long and be bulletproof. Some just for the
occasional blast down the quarter mile only to possibly explode at the
far end. Anyway, fast forward to when I got to the systems part in
private pilot training, and my jaw dropped. I couldn't believe what I
had been flying behind. Burns how much oil? Don't pull the power all
the way back and shock cool the engine? Plug fouling, leaky, looser
tolerances, hard starting, low TBO, mixture knob... you all know the
drill. And yes, I know there are nicer and not so nice aircraft
engines, but remember, I'm new, so I get to rent what's on the line at
my local airfield, so it's the beat up 172 with a hodge-podge of
avionics, no door seals, and an intermittent fuel gauge. I'm getting
over the shock, and I haven't yet had one quit on me, but when I started
building, I resolved to go a better way. I researched all the usual
suspects for alternatives - rotary, turbine, H-opposed 6 (sube) - and
the only one I could find with any sort of contiguous history was the
Egg sube. I have high hopes for this package, as the benefits are
many... electronically controlled spark and mixture, smoother running,
low oil consumption, more main bearings that are more closely spaced,
and also the fact that there's not a big heavy thing bolted directly to
the crank swinging around. I know that sounds funny, but to me,
building a nice, tight, balanced, harmonically controlled engine, then
bolting a big, heavy variable to one end of the crank doesn't sound like
a good idea. Also, that cool new 4 blade MT prop that they are working
with will look super cool :-)!! Having said all that, for me, the RV-10
package is just not quite far enough along. I don't want to make a
career out of trying to power my airplane, I just want to finish and
fly. I kind of wish I had the balls to give it a try, but I'm just not
sure I want to be that much of a test pilot. I really respect and
heartily support those who are going with the package, and I think it's
probably going to work pretty well. I stay current on the Egg email
list so that I can watch their progress, and it looks promising. For
me, (sigh) I'm going to have to go the regular old IO-540 route and try
to update it as much as possible with things like electronic ignition
and WHOOPEE (sarcastic) roller lifters. I'll just keep hoping that
someone will come out with a FADEC for the 540, and that will make it a
bit better. If I'm making the 540 sound dismal, it's only because I
know that engine technology is capable of so much better...
cj
#40410
fuse
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:53 AM
Well......I hesitate because my experience was limited and long ago,
but.....
When I was researching an engine for the -7 that got turned into a -10,
I spent time on the Egg list, lurking. Finally I, too, asked questions
about performance numbers. I also asked when questions posed by others
were ever going to get a straight answer, for I had grown increasingly
uncomfortable with the lack thereof. I got slammed by Jan, publicly
denounced for not having faith in the product. Etc. Etc. "It just
works" is not a quote, but pretty close. Given that I was researching
an engine that was going into an airplane, not a car, I figured that if
I was going to get that type of response, I'd leave it up to the true
believers and those with enough engineering background to do their own
calculations. I, too, have been pulling for someone to make it
successfully as an alternative, but not with an attitude like I found on
the Egg site. His is a product destined for an environment that
deserves careful testing and honesty with customers. I have a certain
amount of faith, shaken by the crank issues, in current certified engine
technology, but Jan got an F in the faith department with his
bludgeoning prose and public scorn for those who ask the correct
questions. I don't know about delivery issues and other problems, and
those can be expected, but they need to be handled with openness. We
are a forgiving bunch. We know the problems that exist for small
companies trying to get a complex product out the door. I guess if
you're intent on being an Egg customer, then you must be convinced that
the engine is what it's claimed to be by Egg. In some areas of life, I
do not feel I have enough information and smarts to be an early adopter.
Good luck! I hope it all works out, because we do need alternatives.
John Jessen
328
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:26 AM
Here we go again....
In all fairness to delivery dates, I can name every major vendor out
there that has slipped dates. I have paid in full for my Chelton with
harness and had the dates slipped on my harness from Direct to Avionics,
and the last time I called they had not even finalized the package.
Another one comes to mind is Tru-trak, I have had my servos on order
before May, and have been told several times they would be shipped in
the next few days, it is now July and I still do not have them. Does
this make me mad? No, just disappointed, but I planned for the delays
and in such I will get them and do not have to stress about it, and it
will be the same with the engine.
These small production numbers do not lend themselves well to
predictable delivery times, and as such, we need to be tolerant of them
and slips. One thing Jan has the ability to do well is communicate to
his customers. He is forth coming with changes and allows us to be part
of it. He has kept us informed of the steps along the way. It is an
experimental engine, that is currently being designed, so yes, there
will be delays. But all you have to do is call and he will give you his
best guess, and that is what it is a guess at that time because
unforeseen things come up, the PSRU change comes to mind. But these
delays end up in a better product.
As for the performance figures, they are right on with a Lycoming, and
since this is being sold as a Lycoming replacement, I would say that it
is living right up to expectations. Yes, the cost is the same in the
beginning, but during a re-build, you will get a brand new engine, for
less than it would cost to just do a top overhaul on a Lycoming.
As for the RV10 the package is too new to tell on performance numbers,
but once I am flying with it, I will have a FWF solution including a C/S
speed prop, that in total costs significantly less than a New Lycoming
FWF solution.
I would like to know where you got your information on the resale
numbers, because I am only aware of one sale with an E-Subaru, and that
was for the same amount a standard would sell for. I am not aware on any
other sales, but they could be out there.
The end result is this, in the alternative engine market Jan is the
leader for RV's. The other two have fallen flat on their face or have
gone out of business. I have been following this engine package for
years, and like what I see, and the progress that has been made. More
importantly, I trust Jan and his ability to deliver on the engine, and
if there are issues I am confident in his ability to fix them. This is
the alternative engine market, and something's have to be taken on faith
and your trust in the person.
We all jumped on the RV10 bandwagon, even before performance numbers
were truly known, and this was because we trust in Vans Aircraft and
their commitment to deliver a good product. Many of us ordered before
the kits had even begun being designed, but that was because we trusted
they would make it and make it right, and the delivery times might have
slipped, even as large as Vans is, they did slip on time in the early
kits. I imagine back in the early 80's, people were having the same
discussions about Van's and their ability to deliver, we just did not
have the internet to pontificate about it.
So in all reality, Mike get over it, the engine is not for you, we all
know it is not for you, but you do not have to tear down another persons
business, to make yourself feel better about your decision. All of the
vendors have suffered in delivery times, just get over it.
Dan Lloyd
40269 (N289DT)
Fuselage
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:17 AM
Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list for asking
him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10. One
of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a
very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he wouldn't allow
one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no
problem with a potential customer being so. And no, he will never give
dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As far as non-delivery,
do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will
find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates.
One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after the
engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year. Oh and
the "complete" firewall forward package apparently wasn't so complete
either. I'm sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully won't threaten
him to take down the site.
My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due
diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a Lycoming
after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs
engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on that
list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several people off
list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already ordered
and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the status
quo.
I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of
producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow up
his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I am also not
saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after
all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to
tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some
light on things. I have the full history of the email conversations in
question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is
welcome to do so.
James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines? If not, I
strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In reality
the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package
that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different, the fuel
flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be much
different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale value,
expect it to be much less.
Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as
not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 45
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| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
What I meant by the performance numbers, was directly related to the
article and the RV9 package, I also know that the RV7 package is equal.
What is still unknown is the 10 package as one has not been delivered
yet.
Yes, the subbie has the unknowns, but you bought a plane that had 1
flying at the time, so who is contradicting themselves? "GRIN" granted
Vans has a reputation for great 2 seaters, but the 4 seater is totally
different and he will tell you the same thing. So, yes as a product
builds popularity, there will be delivery pains, and those pains are
directly proportional to the size of the supply chain you have to
support it. Vans was able to quickly catch up because they have the
resources to bring to bear, and Jan does not have these resources. So as
his popularity has built, as evidenced by the numbers, production
schedules do slip, and all you have to do is call him, and he will give
you a best estimate as of that time.
As for building hours, somebody has to fly those hours to prove it, and
that is underway by the 300 or so people that have made the commitment,
and they will continue to grow as more of us start to fly. It will just
be a game of wait and see, as the numbers build though I would expect
more converts. Also there was just a discussion on re-sale and what one
could expect to get out of it, and several people stated that we are not
building for profit, rather for enjoyment. I fall into the category of
enjoyment and experimentation. I want to be able to do anything I want
with the plane, IE experimental, and if I had more time to give, I would
probably do my own conversion, but I do not have enough knowledge right
now to attempt that. So I am learning how to build an airframe, and next
time I will learn about the power plant, but it will be an auto
conversion, and it will be after my first plane is up and flying, and I
can take as long as necassary.
The key to your last paragraph is all about the little guy, somebody has
to be there to support them, or there will not be any advancements made.
It is through the few of us that are willing to take a chance, that the
rest of the community will benefit, IE Dynon, GRT, Tru-Track, Blue
Mountain, etc. All of them had to start somewhere, and somebody had to
be the first customers. We need to support them and the people who trust
them, as this is how we all support progress. It might not be for
everyone to be an early adopter, but someone has to go first and we
should all be thankful for that someone, because if it was not for them,
we would all be stuck flying SPAM cans
Dan Lloyd
40269 (N289DT)
Fuselage
_____
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:24 PM
Dan, I'm not tearing down anyone. As you will see from all of my
posts I think Jan does a good job. I'm just stating facts. The resale
thing is pretty much a given. You will have a smaller market reselling
anything that is a one off and it is unlikely you will get the same
value as what is considered standard. I do find it interesting that
below you say the performance numbers are right on for a Lycoming but
then in the same paragraph you say that there are no performance
numbers. Hmmmm. I whole heartedly expect someone to defend a purchase
they made so I'm glad you and others are defending the package. I went
with a package that defends itself based on hundreds of thousands of
running hours in aircraft. Was it a good choice maybe, I would probably
consider it a safe choice more than anything. I'm not expecting any
major unknowns which is what allows me to sleep well at night (pending
any $*^&$#! AD's). For me the Egg Subie still had too many unknowns,
not a bad thing if you really are behind experimenting, just not
something I felt comfortable with when flying my family around.
Anyway, I am sincerely glad that 15 RV-10 builders have ordered his
package and I anxiously await results and data from the first flying
conversions. This is the only way to get an alternative engine out
there and I salute those willing to be true experimenters. But in the
mean time the only thing we can go by are the facts. But get one thing
straight, I am not slamming Jan as I don't know the guy, I am not
slamming his products as I do not own anything he has ever built. I am
questioning his business practices and his performance numbers. You are
right on the money with the other vendors having delivery problems. The
difference is they have much more product out there and their problems
are the exception and not the rule.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:26 AM
Here we go again....
In all fairness to delivery dates, I can name every major vendor out
there that has slipped dates. I have paid in full for my Chelton with
harness and had the dates slipped on my harness from Direct to Avionics,
and the last time I called they had not even finalized the package.
Another one comes to mind is Tru-trak, I have had my servos on order
before May, and have been told several times they would be shipped in
the next few days, it is now July and I still do not have them. Does
this make me mad? No, just disappointed, but I planned for the delays
and in such I will get them and do not have to stress about it, and it
will be the same with the engine.
These small production numbers do not lend themselves well to
predictable delivery times, and as such, we need to be tolerant of them
and slips. One thing Jan has the ability to do well is communicate to
his customers. He is forth coming with changes and allows us to be part
of it. He has kept us informed of the steps along the way. It is an
experimental engine, that is currently being designed, so yes, there
will be delays. But all you have to do is call and he will give you his
best guess, and that is what it is a guess at that time because
unforeseen things come up, the PSRU change comes to mind. But these
delays end up in a better product.
As for the performance figures, they are right on with a Lycoming, and
since this is being sold as a Lycoming replacement, I would say that it
is living right up to expectations. Yes, the cost is the same in the
beginning, but during a re-build, you will get a brand new engine, for
less than it would cost to just do a top overhaul on a Lycoming.
As for the RV10 the package is too new to tell on performance numbers,
but once I am flying with it, I will have a FWF solution including a C/S
speed prop, that in total costs significantly less than a New Lycoming
FWF solution.
I would like to know where you got your information on the resale
numbers, because I am only aware of one sale with an E-Subaru, and that
was for the same amount a standard would sell for. I am not aware on any
other sales, but they could be out there.
The end result is this, in the alternative engine market Jan is the
leader for RV's. The other two have fallen flat on their face or have
gone out of business. I have been following this engine package for
years, and like what I see, and the progress that has been made. More
importantly, I trust Jan and his ability to deliver on the engine, and
if there are issues I am confident in his ability to fix them. This is
the alternative engine market, and something's have to be taken on faith
and your trust in the person.
We all jumped on the RV10 bandwagon, even before performance numbers
were truly known, and this was because we trust in Vans Aircraft and
their commitment to deliver a good product. Many of us ordered before
the kits had even begun being designed, but that was because we trusted
they would make it and make it right, and the delivery times might have
slipped, even as large as Vans is, they did slip on time in the early
kits. I imagine back in the early 80's, people were having the same
discussions about Van's and their ability to deliver, we just did not
have the internet to pontificate about it.
So in all reality, Mike get over it, the engine is not for you, we all
know it is not for you, but you do not have to tear down another persons
business, to make yourself feel better about your decision. All of the
vendors have suffered in delivery times, just get over it.
Dan Lloyd
40269 (N289DT)
Fuselage
_____
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:17 AM
Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list for asking
him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10. One
of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a
very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he wouldn't allow
one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no
problem with a potential customer being so. And no, he will never give
dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As far as non-delivery,
do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will
find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates.
One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after the
engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year. Oh and
the "complete" firewall forward package apparently wasn't so complete
either. I'm sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully won't threaten
him to take down the site.
My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due
diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a Lycoming
after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs
engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on that
list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several people off
list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already ordered
and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the status
quo.
I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of
producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow up
his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I am also not
saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after
all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to
tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some
light on things. I have the full history of the email conversations in
question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is
welcome to do so.
James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines? If not, I
strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In reality
the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package
that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different, the fuel
flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be much
different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale value,
expect it to be much less.
Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as
not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 46
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
For those of your who are going to Osk, please pick the brains of the
companies, Innodyne, Eggenfellner and AES.
Lets keep this list interesting and informative. I'm sorry I will not be
able to attent.
I am obviously looking for one of those alternatives.
John G.
Do not archive
>From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 16:31:25 -0400
>
>What I meant by the performance numbers, was directly related to the
>article and the RV9 package, I also know that the RV7 package is equal.
>What is still unknown is the 10 package as one has not been delivered
>yet.
>Yes, the subbie has the unknowns, but you bought a plane that had 1
>flying at the time, so who is contradicting themselves? "GRIN" granted
>Vans has a reputation for great 2 seaters, but the 4 seater is totally
>different and he will tell you the same thing. So, yes as a product
>builds popularity, there will be delivery pains, and those pains are
>directly proportional to the size of the supply chain you have to
>support it. Vans was able to quickly catch up because they have the
>resources to bring to bear, and Jan does not have these resources. So as
>his popularity has built, as evidenced by the numbers, production
>schedules do slip, and all you have to do is call him, and he will give
>you a best estimate as of that time.
>As for building hours, somebody has to fly those hours to prove it, and
>that is underway by the 300 or so people that have made the commitment,
>and they will continue to grow as more of us start to fly. It will just
>be a game of wait and see, as the numbers build though I would expect
>more converts. Also there was just a discussion on re-sale and what one
>could expect to get out of it, and several people stated that we are not
>building for profit, rather for enjoyment. I fall into the category of
>enjoyment and experimentation. I want to be able to do anything I want
>with the plane, IE experimental, and if I had more time to give, I would
>probably do my own conversion, but I do not have enough knowledge right
>now to attempt that. So I am learning how to build an airframe, and next
>time I will learn about the power plant, but it will be an auto
>conversion, and it will be after my first plane is up and flying, and I
>can take as long as necassary.
>The key to your last paragraph is all about the little guy, somebody has
>to be there to support them, or there will not be any advancements made.
>It is through the few of us that are willing to take a chance, that the
>rest of the community will benefit, IE Dynon, GRT, Tru-Track, Blue
>Mountain, etc. All of them had to start somewhere, and somebody had to
>be the first customers. We need to support them and the people who trust
>them, as this is how we all support progress. It might not be for
>everyone to be an early adopter, but someone has to go first and we
>should all be thankful for that someone, because if it was not for them,
>we would all be stuck flying SPAM cans
>
>Dan Lloyd
>40269 (N289DT)
>Fuselage
>
> _____
>
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
>(Michael Sausen)
>Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:24 PM
>
>
> Dan, I'm not tearing down anyone. As you will see from all of my
>posts I think Jan does a good job. I'm just stating facts. The resale
>thing is pretty much a given. You will have a smaller market reselling
>anything that is a one off and it is unlikely you will get the same
>value as what is considered standard. I do find it interesting that
>below you say the performance numbers are right on for a Lycoming but
>then in the same paragraph you say that there are no performance
>numbers. Hmmmm. I whole heartedly expect someone to defend a purchase
>they made so I'm glad you and others are defending the package. I went
>with a package that defends itself based on hundreds of thousands of
>running hours in aircraft. Was it a good choice maybe, I would probably
>consider it a safe choice more than anything. I'm not expecting any
>major unknowns which is what allows me to sleep well at night (pending
>any $*^&$#! AD's). For me the Egg Subie still had too many unknowns,
>not a bad thing if you really are behind experimenting, just not
>something I felt comfortable with when flying my family around.
>
>
> Anyway, I am sincerely glad that 15 RV-10 builders have ordered his
>package and I anxiously await results and data from the first flying
>conversions. This is the only way to get an alternative engine out
>there and I salute those willing to be true experimenters. But in the
>mean time the only thing we can go by are the facts. But get one thing
>straight, I am not slamming Jan as I don't know the guy, I am not
>slamming his products as I do not own anything he has ever built. I am
>questioning his business practices and his performance numbers. You are
>right on the money with the other vendors having delivery problems. The
>difference is they have much more product out there and their problems
>are the exception and not the rule.
>
>
>Michael Sausen
>
>RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
>
>Do Not Archive
>
>Recent RV-10 Build Activity
><http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
>
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
>R.
>Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:26 AM
>
>
>Here we go again....
>
>In all fairness to delivery dates, I can name every major vendor out
>there that has slipped dates. I have paid in full for my Chelton with
>harness and had the dates slipped on my harness from Direct to Avionics,
>and the last time I called they had not even finalized the package.
>Another one comes to mind is Tru-trak, I have had my servos on order
>before May, and have been told several times they would be shipped in
>the next few days, it is now July and I still do not have them. Does
>this make me mad? No, just disappointed, but I planned for the delays
>and in such I will get them and do not have to stress about it, and it
>will be the same with the engine.
>
>
>These small production numbers do not lend themselves well to
>predictable delivery times, and as such, we need to be tolerant of them
>and slips. One thing Jan has the ability to do well is communicate to
>his customers. He is forth coming with changes and allows us to be part
>of it. He has kept us informed of the steps along the way. It is an
>experimental engine, that is currently being designed, so yes, there
>will be delays. But all you have to do is call and he will give you his
>best guess, and that is what it is a guess at that time because
>unforeseen things come up, the PSRU change comes to mind. But these
>delays end up in a better product.
>
>
>As for the performance figures, they are right on with a Lycoming, and
>since this is being sold as a Lycoming replacement, I would say that it
>is living right up to expectations. Yes, the cost is the same in the
>beginning, but during a re-build, you will get a brand new engine, for
>less than it would cost to just do a top overhaul on a Lycoming.
>
>As for the RV10 the package is too new to tell on performance numbers,
>but once I am flying with it, I will have a FWF solution including a C/S
>speed prop, that in total costs significantly less than a New Lycoming
>FWF solution.
>
>
>I would like to know where you got your information on the resale
>numbers, because I am only aware of one sale with an E-Subaru, and that
>was for the same amount a standard would sell for. I am not aware on any
>other sales, but they could be out there.
>
>
>The end result is this, in the alternative engine market Jan is the
>leader for RV's. The other two have fallen flat on their face or have
>gone out of business. I have been following this engine package for
>years, and like what I see, and the progress that has been made. More
>importantly, I trust Jan and his ability to deliver on the engine, and
>if there are issues I am confident in his ability to fix them. This is
>the alternative engine market, and something's have to be taken on faith
>and your trust in the person.
>
>
>We all jumped on the RV10 bandwagon, even before performance numbers
>were truly known, and this was because we trust in Vans Aircraft and
>their commitment to deliver a good product. Many of us ordered before
>the kits had even begun being designed, but that was because we trusted
>they would make it and make it right, and the delivery times might have
>slipped, even as large as Vans is, they did slip on time in the early
>kits. I imagine back in the early 80's, people were having the same
>discussions about Van's and their ability to deliver, we just did not
>have the internet to pontificate about it.
>
>
>So in all reality, Mike get over it, the engine is not for you, we all
>know it is not for you, but you do not have to tear down another persons
>business, to make yourself feel better about your decision. All of the
>vendors have suffered in delivery times, just get over it.
>
>
>Dan Lloyd
>
>40269 (N289DT)
>
>Fuselage
>
>
> _____
>
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
>(Michael Sausen)
>Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:17 AM
>
> Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list for asking
>him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10. One
>of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a
>very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he wouldn't allow
>one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no
>problem with a potential customer being so. And no, he will never give
>dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As far as non-delivery,
>do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will
>find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates.
>One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after the
>engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year. Oh and
>the "complete" firewall forward package apparently wasn't so complete
>either. I'm sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully won't threaten
>him to take down the site.
>
>
> My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due
>diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a Lycoming
>after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs
>engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on that
>list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several people off
>list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already ordered
>and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the status
>quo.
>
>
> I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of
>producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow up
>his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I am also not
>saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after
>all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to
>tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some
>light on things. I have the full history of the email conversations in
>question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is
>welcome to do so.
>
>
> James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines? If not, I
>strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In reality
>the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package
>that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different, the fuel
>flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be much
>different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale value,
>expect it to be much less.
>
>
> Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
>
>
>Michael Sausen
>
>RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
>
>Recent RV-10 Build Activity
><http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
>
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
>Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
>
>
>Micheal,
>
>It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
>
>For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as
>not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
>non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
>
>I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
>request.
>
>James
>... no dog in this hunt
>
>On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
>
>Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
>shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
>Now how about some dyno numbers?
>
>
>Michael Sausen
>
>RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
>
>Recent RV-10 Build Activity
><http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
>
>[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
>EAAINC@aol.com
>Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
>
>
>I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
>220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
>Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
>
>
>Jan
>
>
>--
>This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
>james@nextupventures.com .
>
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
--> RV10-List message posted by: PJ Seipel <seipel@seznam.cz>
The only problem is you'd have to convince Van's to support it since
they only sell to OEM's. Maybe we'll get lucky and the engine will be
good enough that Van would be willing to try it.
PJ
#40032
Brian Sponcil wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Brian Sponcil"
> <bsponcil@belinblank.org>
>
>
> For those of us just starting, there may be a diesel option around
> when we're shopping for motors.
>
> See:
> http://web.thielert.com/typo3/index.php?id=660&backPID=660&tt_news=625&L=1
>
>
> As for the EGG-Subie, the main disadvantage is the relative expense. I
> can get a decent, albeit used, lycosaur (accessories included) for
> quite a bit less than Jan's offering. Yes, overhauls are cheap but
> how long is it going to take to run the subaru out? I guess for me, if
> you're going to go alternative, the product needs to be compelling on
> either performance or price and I don't think the Subaru engine is
> significantly different on either. IMHO, of course.
>
>
> -Brian
>
> #40497
> N211BD
> Iowa City, IA
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:51 AM
>
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend"
>> <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
>>
>>
>> Anybody ever hear from the fellow in Ontario who is supposedly building
>> a '10 with Corvette power?
>>
>> I still like my idea of two Thielert diesels driving counter-rotating
>> concentric-shaft props . . .
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
Message 48
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| Subject: | Another useful tool - Mini-Drill |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Dick Gurley" <rngurley@mindspring.com>
I have one of these drills - it works great!
Dick Gurley
40414
empennage
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KiloPapa
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 3:14 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "KiloPapa" <kilopapa@antelecom.net>
Attached is a pic of a tool I have found very useful. It is a Chicago
Pneumatic CP7300 1/4" mini-drill. It is small and lightweight and works
quite nicely for final drilling the many #30 and #40 holes. Runs around $85
as I recall.
Kevin
40494
empennage
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=47951#47951
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dcp_2812_458.jpg
Message 49
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| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
Two years ago, a Subie alternative seemed viable, so did the Innodyne
turbine(except for Lancair's embarrassing display of a twin Innodyne at
OSH '05), so did an alternative four stroke automotive and a European
diesel.
As of today, the offers remain without viability, more time is
necessary. Too few are flying prototypes and their record is not
blazing major pressure against the two Dinosaurs. I invested my time
attending the seminars by Mr. Atkins and listening to his story of his
lost engine in-flight. I like the passion of those trying something
new. I think many will be pleasantly surprised when Dave comes to
market next year with his alternative powerplant.
Having been involved in some of the planning, discussion and carrying
the desire to see a viable alternative, it is clear I may need to wait
another two years and watch the dust settle from the more major issues
of the Middle East. At this point my endorsement goes to Aerosport or
Barrett and the boringly conservative choice to be patient.
Good luck to you Bleeding Edge Innovators. 100LL and a dinosaur is my
only endorsement... Damn it. I won't MOGAS my future.
John - $00.02
Do not Archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:42 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I do have a builder in my area that had extensive problems with
what he was delivered vs. what he was promised. He was constantly
updating me with how nasty his problems were becoming. Unfortunately,
he can now not talk about it because they were rectified by a
return of the engine and a partial refund so he could get a Lyc.
and move on, and in order to get that, he had to sign a statement
that he would not disclose what happened after the agreement
was made. So, it's a gag order to prevent future customers from
finding out about the promises not delivered on. To me, that's
enough motivation to go to any other alternate. That said, there
are many other positive stories we've all heard over the years
from people. Now you just have to decide, which one outweighs
the other. People tend to talk proudly of what they bought and
have, so that tends to remove a little bit of objectivity when
discussing these things too. So it truly is a tough issue to
get to the bottom of when deciding which engine to go with.
I'd love to see a good alternative, but for today, for me, I'm
staying with my Lyc. Hopefully we'll get a few -10's who go
other routes and give honest feedback so we can see how the
decisions pan out. At least with Lyc, the statistics are pretty
standard and well known.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Message 50
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| Subject: | Electric Load analysis |
I'm starting to get serious about the electrical system, and have put
together an initial cut at a load analysis for my electrical system. I
don't recall seeing any posts previously that contained similar
information, however with 37 flying examples I'm sure that there are
some 'proven' examples. I'm leaning towards the Aero Electric Z13/20
architecture at the moment (had been planning on a Z14 but think it's
overkill for me), which includes the endurance buss concept w/ a back-up
alternator.
I , for one would be REALLY excited to see ANY examples of what other
builders have done (or are contemplating) in the way of their load
analysis. I'm attaching a copy of my initial spreadsheet, and would
welcome any review / critique that others may offer. Just remember that
I'm no Sparky either and all this electron stuff is 'magic' to me. So be
gentle with any critique. O:-)
THANKS
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse/Finishing
http://deemsrv10.com/
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: Pilots need to know flap angle |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris" <toaster73@earthlink.net>
Congrats Jack!
-Chris Lucas
#40072
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:04 PM
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack"
> <Jack.Phillips@cardinal.com>
>
> I've only flown a -10 once, but I know in my RV-4 that I never position
> the flaps anywhere but full up or full down. A position sensor is
> unnecessary since it is easy to glance over your shoulder and see where
> the flaps are.
>
> I'm now officially an RV-10 builder. Ordered my empennage kit this
> morning (trying to beat the Oshkosh rush)
>
> Jack Phillips
> Raleigh, NC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
> Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:45 AM
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> If you're going to indicate at all, it would be nice to either
> have the variable indication on a display, or at least
> a 4 position indication to work with the Flap Position System
> from Van's. Other than that, I wouldn't bother with a system
> that only reads the two extremes. Personally, I'm not all
> convinced an indicator system is a big deal on the -10 as it's
> very easy to see where the flaps are positioned by a quick
> glance. Others who thought it was a big deal that I didn't
> have an indicator have actually changed opinions after going
> for a flight in the plane. That said, a 4 position indicator
> would be kind of cool if it were very cheap and very simple.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> Bill DeRouchey wrote:
>> Question for those lucky folks that are currently flying -
>>
>> How useful is it to know the flap angle from an RV-10 pilots
>> perspective? I can easily provide a display to show a coarse setting
>> (Ray Allen POS-12), a very exact setting (string pot) or simply do
>> nothing. The do nothing choice corresponds to flaps all the way up or
>> all the way down with a quick look out the window to confirm.
>>
>> Is knowing the intermediate angle useful? If so, how accurate?
>>
>> Bill DeRouchey
>> N939SB, #40029, billderou@yahoo.com <mailto:billderou@yahoo.com>
>> flyable in 3 days, DAR schedule?
>>
>
>
> _________________________________________________
>
>
>
Message 52
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| Subject: | Pilots need to know flap angle |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys <dmasys@cox.net>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
>
> At night? You're able to see well enough at night? In the rain?
There is no flap position sensor on my -7A and although for the first hundred
flight hours or so I would look out the window to see flap position, it really
isn't necessary once you get to know your airplane because you can feel the difference
in the stick pressure combined with the view out the front window in
the approach attitude. It's also pretty simple to just hold the flap switch
for the number of seconds that correspond to partial and full flap positioning.
It is one of those nice to have things, but much more relevant for a spam can like
my C182, where one didn't have the nice 'rack and pinion steering in 3 dimensions'
that you get with an RV. You can really feel the airplane flying in
an RV -- all the way through flare to touchdown.
-Dan Masys
Message 53
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| Subject: | Headliner before cabin cover riveting? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys <dmasys@cox.net>
I am at point in the plans where it says to rivet the cabin cover on, but I was
waiting till OSH to go see about interior upholstery (probably from Flightline).
In the archives there is chat about installing the headliner before installing
the cabin cover. Is putting the headliner in a big enough deal that I should
wait before riveting the structure together, or just one of those things
that is nice to do if you have the chance? (Sure would be nice to get the structures
part of the project out of the way to move onto FWF and systems goodies.)
-Dan Masys
#40448
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Load analysis |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys <dmasys@cox.net>
Looks about right, Deems. I have the Z13 ("all electric airplane on a budget")
architecture in my -7A, and am doing the same for the -10. Steady state alternator
loads with everything turned on except the pitot heat are about 20-25 amps
(with TruTrak/alt hold, GX60, three electric gyros, SL30, GTX327, GRT EIS
and Duckworks lights in both wings). I have the 8 amp backup alternator on the
engine accessory pad, with the plan to shed load to a manageable level on the
endurance bus in case of main alternator failure. I suppose I'll spring for
a 60 amp alternator for the -10, but Van's 35 amp bargain basement alternator
and solid state voltage regulator are really adequate for the current RV, and
the new one actually has a lower load analysis due to the relatively small current
draw of the GRT displays relative to motor driven gyros.
-Dan Masys
40448
---- Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net> wrote:
> I'm starting to get serious about the electrical system, and have put
> together an initial cut at a load analysis for my electrical system. I
> don't recall seeing any posts previously that contained similar
> information, however with 37 flying examples I'm sure that there are
> some 'proven' examples. I'm leaning towards the Aero Electric Z13/20
> architecture at the moment (had been planning on a Z14 but think it's
> overkill for me), which includes the endurance buss concept w/ a back-up
> alternator.
> I , for one would be REALLY excited to see ANY examples of what other
> builders have done (or are contemplating) in the way of their load
> analysis. I'm attaching a copy of my initial spreadsheet, and would
> welcome any review / critique that others may offer. Just remember that
> I'm no Sparky either and all this electron stuff is 'magic' to me. So be
> gentle with any critique. O:-)
>
> THANKS
>
> Deems Davis # 406
> Fuse/Finishing
> http://deemsrv10.com/
Message 55
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| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
An effective aircraft powerplant needs reliability. You should see the
size and weight of our PSRU on the PW123 and PW150. They weigh as much
as any forged steel crank ever would. Only difference is the 17:1
reduction to bring those turbine speeds down to manageable prop
swinging. Oh, and they are way out front to balance the lighter
powerplant.
I have a friend who has built Subies for the Auto Race circuit. Love
the power, hate the noise, can't tolerate the seal replacement
frequency. His clients have the money and trailer it home when it needs
servicing. Thanks, I am calcifying into a dinosaur as we read.
John
Do not Archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Johnston
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 1:17 PM
I'll just chime in with my .02.....I came to flying after a long love
affair with drag racing. I built my share of race engines, and saw the
technology steadily improve over about a 10 year period. Some engines
were built to run hard and long and be bulletproof. Some just for the
occasional blast down the quarter mile only to possibly explode at the
far end. Anyway, fast forward to when I got to the systems part in
private pilot training, and my jaw dropped. I couldn't believe what I
had been flying behind. Burns how much oil? Don't pull the power all
the way back and shock cool the engine? Plug fouling, leaky, looser
tolerances, hard starting, low TBO, mixture knob... you all know the
drill. And yes, I know there are nicer and not so nice aircraft
engines, but remember, I'm new, so I get to rent what's on the line at
my local airfield, so it's the beat up 172 with a hodge-podge of
avionics, no door seals, and an intermittent fuel gauge. I'm getting
over the shock, and I haven't yet had one quit on me, but when I started
building, I resolved to go a better way. I researched all the usual
suspects for alternatives - rotary, turbine, H-opposed 6 (sube) - and
the only one I could find with any sort of contiguous history was the
Egg sube. I have high hopes for this package, as the benefits are
many... electronically controlled spark and mixture, smoother running,
low oil consumption, more main bearings that are more closely spaced,
and also the fact that there's not a big heavy thing bolted directly to
the crank swinging around. I know that sounds funny, but to me,
building a nice, tight, balanced, harmonically controlled engine, then
bolting a big, heavy variable to one end of the crank doesn't sound like
a good idea. Also, that cool new 4 blade MT prop that they are working
with will look super cool :-)!! Having said all that, for me, the RV-10
package is just not quite far enough along. I don't want to make a
career out of trying to power my airplane, I just want to finish and
fly. I kind of wish I had the balls to give it a try, but I'm just not
sure I want to be that much of a test pilot. I really respect and
heartily support those who are going with the package, and I think it's
probably going to work pretty well. I stay current on the Egg email
list so that I can watch their progress, and it looks promising. For
me, (sigh) I'm going to have to go the regular old IO-540 route and try
to update it as much as possible with things like electronic ignition
and WHOOPEE (sarcastic) roller lifters. I'll just keep hoping that
someone will come out with a FADEC for the 540, and that will make it a
bit better. If I'm making the 540 sound dismal, it's only because I
know that engine technology is capable of so much better...
cj
#40410
fuse
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:53 AM
Well......I hesitate because my experience was limited and long ago,
but.....
When I was researching an engine for the -7 that got turned into a -10,
I spent time on the Egg list, lurking. Finally I, too, asked questions
about performance numbers. I also asked when questions posed by others
were ever going to get a straight answer, for I had grown increasingly
uncomfortable with the lack thereof. I got slammed by Jan, publicly
denounced for not having faith in the product. Etc. Etc. "It just
works" is not a quote, but pretty close. Given that I was researching
an engine that was going into an airplane, not a car, I figured that if
I was going to get that type of response, I'd leave it up to the true
believers and those with enough engineering background to do their own
calculations. I, too, have been pulling for someone to make it
successfully as an alternative, but not with an attitude like I found on
the Egg site. His is a product destined for an environment that
deserves careful testing and honesty with customers. I have a certain
amount of faith, shaken by the crank issues, in current certified engine
technology, but Jan got an F in the faith department with his
bludgeoning prose and public scorn for those who ask the correct
questions. I don't know about delivery issues and other problems, and
those can be expected, but they need to be handled with openness. We
are a forgiving bunch. We know the problems that exist for small
companies trying to get a complex product out the door. I guess if
you're intent on being an Egg customer, then you must be convinced that
the engine is what it's claimed to be by Egg. In some areas of life, I
do not feel I have enough information and smarts to be an early adopter.
Good luck! I hope it all works out, because we do need alternatives.
John Jessen
328
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:26 AM
Here we go again....
In all fairness to delivery dates, I can name every major vendor out
there that has slipped dates. I have paid in full for my Chelton with
harness and had the dates slipped on my harness from Direct to Avionics,
and the last time I called they had not even finalized the package.
Another one comes to mind is Tru-trak, I have had my servos on order
before May, and have been told several times they would be shipped in
the next few days, it is now July and I still do not have them. Does
this make me mad? No, just disappointed, but I planned for the delays
and in such I will get them and do not have to stress about it, and it
will be the same with the engine.
These small production numbers do not lend themselves well to
predictable delivery times, and as such, we need to be tolerant of them
and slips. One thing Jan has the ability to do well is communicate to
his customers. He is forth coming with changes and allows us to be part
of it. He has kept us informed of the steps along the way. It is an
experimental engine, that is currently being designed, so yes, there
will be delays. But all you have to do is call and he will give you his
best guess, and that is what it is a guess at that time because
unforeseen things come up, the PSRU change comes to mind. But these
delays end up in a better product.
As for the performance figures, they are right on with a Lycoming, and
since this is being sold as a Lycoming replacement, I would say that it
is living right up to expectations. Yes, the cost is the same in the
beginning, but during a re-build, you will get a brand new engine, for
less than it would cost to just do a top overhaul on a Lycoming.
As for the RV10 the package is too new to tell on performance numbers,
but once I am flying with it, I will have a FWF solution including a C/S
speed prop, that in total costs significantly less than a New Lycoming
FWF solution.
I would like to know where you got your information on the resale
numbers, because I am only aware of one sale with an E-Subaru, and that
was for the same amount a standard would sell for. I am not aware on any
other sales, but they could be out there.
The end result is this, in the alternative engine market Jan is the
leader for RV's. The other two have fallen flat on their face or have
gone out of business. I have been following this engine package for
years, and like what I see, and the progress that has been made. More
importantly, I trust Jan and his ability to deliver on the engine, and
if there are issues I am confident in his ability to fix them. This is
the alternative engine market, and something's have to be taken on faith
and your trust in the person.
We all jumped on the RV10 bandwagon, even before performance numbers
were truly known, and this was because we trust in Vans Aircraft and
their commitment to deliver a good product. Many of us ordered before
the kits had even begun being designed, but that was because we trusted
they would make it and make it right, and the delivery times might have
slipped, even as large as Vans is, they did slip on time in the early
kits. I imagine back in the early 80's, people were having the same
discussions about Van's and their ability to deliver, we just did not
have the internet to pontificate about it.
So in all reality, Mike get over it, the engine is not for you, we all
know it is not for you, but you do not have to tear down another persons
business, to make yourself feel better about your decision. All of the
vendors have suffered in delivery times, just get over it.
Dan Lloyd
40269 (N289DT)
Fuselage
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:17 AM
Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list for asking
him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10. One
of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a
very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he wouldn't allow
one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no
problem with a potential customer being so. And no, he will never give
dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As far as non-delivery,
do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will
find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates.
One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after the
engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year. Oh and
the "complete" firewall forward package apparently wasn't so complete
either. I'm sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully won't threaten
him to take down the site.
My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due
diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a Lycoming
after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs
engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on that
list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several people off
list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already ordered
and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the status
quo.
I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of
producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow up
his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I am also not
saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after
all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to
tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some
light on things. I have the full history of the email conversations in
question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is
welcome to do so.
James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines? If not, I
strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In reality
the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package
that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different, the fuel
flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be much
different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale value,
expect it to be much less.
Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as
not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 56
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| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
Thielert looks like a good future alternative. They have built up good
support, it seems, and are now part of Superior, so they have a US
presence now, too. Diamond is/will be delivering airplanes with
Thielert, so there's a base, too. When my 540 reaches TBO . . .
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Mon 7/17/2006 6:09 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: PJ Seipel <seipel@seznam.cz>
The only problem is you'd have to convince Van's to support it since
they only sell to OEM's. Maybe we'll get lucky and the engine will be
good enough that Van would be willing to try it.
PJ
#40032
Brian Sponcil wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Brian Sponcil"
> <bsponcil@belinblank.org>
>
>
> For those of us just starting, there may be a diesel option around
> when we're shopping for motors.
>
> See:
>
http://web.thielert.com/typo3/index.php?id=660&backPID=660&tt_news=
625&L=1
>
>
> As for the EGG-Subie, the main disadvantage is the relative expense. I
> can get a decent, albeit used, lycosaur (accessories included) for
> quite a bit less than Jan's offering. Yes, overhauls are cheap but
> how long is it going to take to run the subaru out? I guess for me, if
> you're going to go alternative, the product needs to be compelling on
> either performance or price and I don't think the Subaru engine is
> significantly different on either. IMHO, of course.
>
>
> -Brian
>
> #40497
> N211BD
> Iowa City, IA
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:51 AM
>
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend"
>> <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
>>
>>
>> Anybody ever hear from the fellow in Ontario who is supposedly
building
>> a '10 with Corvette power?
>>
>> I still like my idea of two Thielert diesels driving counter-rotating
>> concentric-shaft props . . .
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
Message 57
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|
| Subject: | Re: Headliner before cabin cover riveting? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
It would be easiest to install the headliner before you put the canopy
on. Plan ahead though and don't glue the lower 2 or 3" and leave a
few inches extra that will go below the canopy top and trim it all
later. The only catch is, while it's easier to do the headliner
later, that will assume you have the interior cabin top painted
already in the non-covered areas. And some of those areas around the
doors may need to be filed down in the future to make the doors fit
better. So, you may end up with some rework around the doors on
your paint unless you either get lucky, or have it all together
enough to know your doors are all ready to go.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Dan Masys wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys <dmasys@cox.net>
>
> I am at point in the plans where it says to rivet the cabin cover on,
> but I was waiting till OSH to go see about interior upholstery
> (probably from Flightline). In the archives there is chat about
> installing the headliner before installing the cabin cover. Is
> putting the headliner in a big enough deal that I should wait before
> riveting the structure together, or just one of those things that is
> nice to do if you have the chance? (Sure would be nice to get the
> structures part of the project out of the way to move onto FWF and
> systems goodies.)
>
> -Dan Masys #40448
>
>
Message 58
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| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
Any life from Mistral, the Europeans building Mazda-based rotaries for
airplanes?
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Mon 7/17/2006 8:52 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
An effective aircraft powerplant needs reliability. You should see the
size and weight of our PSRU on the PW123 and PW150. They weigh as much
as any forged steel crank ever would. Only difference is the 17:1
reduction to bring those turbine speeds down to manageable prop
swinging. Oh, and they are way out front to balance the lighter
powerplant.
I have a friend who has built Subies for the Auto Race circuit. Love
the power, hate the noise, can't tolerate the seal replacement
frequency. His clients have the money and trailer it home when it needs
servicing. Thanks, I am calcifying into a dinosaur as we read.
John
Do not Archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Johnston
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 1:17 PM
I'll just chime in with my .02.....I came to flying after a long love
affair with drag racing. I built my share of race engines, and saw the
technology steadily improve over about a 10 year period. Some engines
were built to run hard and long and be bulletproof. Some just for the
occasional blast down the quarter mile only to possibly explode at the
far end. Anyway, fast forward to when I got to the systems part in
private pilot training, and my jaw dropped. I couldn't believe what I
had been flying behind. Burns how much oil? Don't pull the power all
the way back and shock cool the engine? Plug fouling, leaky, looser
tolerances, hard starting, low TBO, mixture knob... you all know the
drill. And yes, I know there are nicer and not so nice aircraft
engines, but remember, I'm new, so I get to rent what's on the line at
my local airfield, so it's the beat up 172 with a hodge-podge of
avionics, no door seals, and an intermittent fuel gauge. I'm getting
over the shock, and I haven't yet had one quit on me, but when I started
building, I resolved to go a better way. I researched all the usual
suspects for alternatives - rotary, turbine, H-opposed 6 (sube) - and
the only one I could find with any sort of contiguous history was the
Egg sube. I have high hopes for this package, as the benefits are
many... electronically controlled spark and mixture, smoother running,
low oil consumption, more main bearings that are more closely spaced,
and also the fact that there's not a big heavy thing bolted directly to
the crank swinging around. I know that sounds funny, but to me,
building a nice, tight, balanced, harmonically controlled engine, then
bolting a big, heavy variable to one end of the crank doesn't sound like
a good idea. Also, that cool new 4 blade MT prop that they are working
with will look super cool :-)!! Having said all that, for me, the RV-10
package is just not quite far enough along. I don't want to make a
career out of trying to power my airplane, I just want to finish and
fly. I kind of wish I had the balls to give it a try, but I'm just not
sure I want to be that much of a test pilot. I really respect and
heartily support those who are going with the package, and I think it's
probably going to work pretty well. I stay current on the Egg email
list so that I can watch their progress, and it looks promising. For
me, (sigh) I'm going to have to go the regular old IO-540 route and try
to update it as much as possible with things like electronic ignition
and WHOOPEE (sarcastic) roller lifters. I'll just keep hoping that
someone will come out with a FADEC for the 540, and that will make it a
bit better. If I'm making the 540 sound dismal, it's only because I
know that engine technology is capable of so much better...
cj
#40410
fuse
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:53 AM
Well......I hesitate because my experience was limited and long ago,
but.....
When I was researching an engine for the -7 that got turned into a -10,
I spent time on the Egg list, lurking. Finally I, too, asked questions
about performance numbers. I also asked when questions posed by others
were ever going to get a straight answer, for I had grown increasingly
uncomfortable with the lack thereof. I got slammed by Jan, publicly
denounced for not having faith in the product. Etc. Etc. "It just
works" is not a quote, but pretty close. Given that I was researching
an engine that was going into an airplane, not a car, I figured that if
I was going to get that type of response, I'd leave it up to the true
believers and those with enough engineering background to do their own
calculations. I, too, have been pulling for someone to make it
successfully as an alternative, but not with an attitude like I found on
the Egg site. His is a product destined for an environment that
deserves careful testing and honesty with customers. I have a certain
amount of faith, shaken by the crank issues, in current certified engine
technology, but Jan got an F in the faith department with his
bludgeoning prose and public scorn for those who ask the correct
questions. I don't know about delivery issues and other problems, and
those can be expected, but they need to be handled with openness. We
are a forgiving bunch. We know the problems that exist for small
companies trying to get a complex product out the door. I guess if
you're intent on being an Egg customer, then you must be convinced that
the engine is what it's claimed to be by Egg. In some areas of life, I
do not feel I have enough information and smarts to be an early adopter.
Good luck! I hope it all works out, because we do need alternatives.
John Jessen
328
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:26 AM
Here we go again....
In all fairness to delivery dates, I can name every major vendor out
there that has slipped dates. I have paid in full for my Chelton with
harness and had the dates slipped on my harness from Direct to Avionics,
and the last time I called they had not even finalized the package.
Another one comes to mind is Tru-trak, I have had my servos on order
before May, and have been told several times they would be shipped in
the next few days, it is now July and I still do not have them. Does
this make me mad? No, just disappointed, but I planned for the delays
and in such I will get them and do not have to stress about it, and it
will be the same with the engine.
These small production numbers do not lend themselves well to
predictable delivery times, and as such, we need to be tolerant of them
and slips. One thing Jan has the ability to do well is communicate to
his customers. He is forth coming with changes and allows us to be part
of it. He has kept us informed of the steps along the way. It is an
experimental engine, that is currently being designed, so yes, there
will be delays. But all you have to do is call and he will give you his
best guess, and that is what it is a guess at that time because
unforeseen things come up, the PSRU change comes to mind. But these
delays end up in a better product.
As for the performance figures, they are right on with a Lycoming, and
since this is being sold as a Lycoming replacement, I would say that it
is living right up to expectations. Yes, the cost is the same in the
beginning, but during a re-build, you will get a brand new engine, for
less than it would cost to just do a top overhaul on a Lycoming.
As for the RV10 the package is too new to tell on performance numbers,
but once I am flying with it, I will have a FWF solution including a C/S
speed prop, that in total costs significantly less than a New Lycoming
FWF solution.
I would like to know where you got your information on the resale
numbers, because I am only aware of one sale with an E-Subaru, and that
was for the same amount a standard would sell for. I am not aware on any
other sales, but they could be out there.
The end result is this, in the alternative engine market Jan is the
leader for RV's. The other two have fallen flat on their face or have
gone out of business. I have been following this engine package for
years, and like what I see, and the progress that has been made. More
importantly, I trust Jan and his ability to deliver on the engine, and
if there are issues I am confident in his ability to fix them. This is
the alternative engine market, and something's have to be taken on faith
and your trust in the person.
We all jumped on the RV10 bandwagon, even before performance numbers
were truly known, and this was because we trust in Vans Aircraft and
their commitment to deliver a good product. Many of us ordered before
the kits had even begun being designed, but that was because we trusted
they would make it and make it right, and the delivery times might have
slipped, even as large as Vans is, they did slip on time in the early
kits. I imagine back in the early 80's, people were having the same
discussions about Van's and their ability to deliver, we just did not
have the internet to pontificate about it.
So in all reality, Mike get over it, the engine is not for you, we all
know it is not for you, but you do not have to tear down another persons
business, to make yourself feel better about your decision. All of the
vendors have suffered in delivery times, just get over it.
Dan Lloyd
40269 (N289DT)
Fuselage
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:17 AM
Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list for asking
him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10. One
of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a
very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he wouldn't allow
one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no
problem with a potential customer being so. And no, he will never give
dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As far as non-delivery,
do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will
find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates.
One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after the
engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year. Oh and
the "complete" firewall forward package apparently wasn't so complete
either. I'm sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully won't threaten
him to take down the site.
My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due
diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a Lycoming
after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs
engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on that
list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several people off
list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already ordered
and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the status
quo.
I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of
producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow up
his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I am also not
saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after
all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to
tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some
light on things. I have the full history of the email conversations in
question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is
welcome to do so.
James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines? If not, I
strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In reality
the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package
that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different, the fuel
flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be much
different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale value,
expect it to be much less.
Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as
not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
Message 59
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|
| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
The only Thielert problem is owner/builders and certificated A & Ps
can't work on them. They must all go back to the approved service
centers. They are downright miserly on the diesel consumption rate for
the DA-42 I am looking at. The new engine holds much operator (Pilot)
promise. Less for wrenches.
John Cox
Do not Archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Dawson-Townsend
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 6:01 PM
Thielert looks like a good future alternative. They have built up good
support, it seems, and are now part of Superior, so they have a US
presence now, too. Diamond is/will be delivering airplanes with
Thielert, so there's a base, too. When my 540 reaches TBO . . .
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Mon 7/17/2006 6:09 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: PJ Seipel <seipel@seznam.cz>
The only problem is you'd have to convince Van's to support it since
they only sell to OEM's. Maybe we'll get lucky and the engine will be
good enough that Van would be willing to try it.
PJ
#40032
Brian Sponcil wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Brian Sponcil"
> <bsponcil@belinblank.org>
>
>
> For those of us just starting, there may be a diesel option around
> when we're shopping for motors.
>
> See:
>
http://web.thielert.com/typo3/index.php?id=660&backPID=660&tt_news=625&L
=1
>
>
> As for the EGG-Subie, the main disadvantage is the relative expense. I
> can get a decent, albeit used, lycosaur (accessories included) for
> quite a bit less than Jan's offering. Yes, overhauls are cheap but
> how long is it going to take to run the subaru out? I guess for me, if
> you're going to go alternative, the product needs to be compelling on
> either performance or price and I don't think the Subaru engine is
> significantly different on either. IMHO, of course.
>
>
> -Brian
>
> #40497
> N211BD
> Iowa City, IA
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:51 AM
>
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend"
>> <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
>>
>>
>> Anybody ever hear from the fellow in Ontario who is supposedly
building
>> a '10 with Corvette power?
>>
>> I still like my idea of two Thielert diesels driving counter-rotating
>> concentric-shaft props . . .
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
===================================
===================================
===================================
===================================
Message 60
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|
| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "bob.kaufmann" <bob.kaufmann@cox.net>
Can't say a lot because in the building stage instead of the flying stage
but I looked at all the options before I made my decision on which direction
for an engine I would go.
I spent a lot of time researching the Inodyne, talked with Deltahawk about
the diesel and Subaru. I ended up going with a tried but not popular engine
from Mazda. A Cosmo 20 B. I am in the process of a complete overhaul and I
do mean complete. All the parts will cost me less than $2000.00. I will
easily get 280 horsepower from the engine and will burn a little more gas.
I'll burn .50 lbs per horsepower instead on .42. That sounds bad until you
realize that I'm burning mogas at 3.05 instead of 100LL at $4.60. All of a
sudden my MPDollar is not bad at all. When I'm done I will have close to
$7500 into a zero time overhaul that should last well beyond 2000 hours. I
believe that is less than the cost of a crankshaft replacement for a
Lycoming.
There is enough support out there for the Cosmo that I have very little fear
in the engine.
Tracy Crook and Conversion Concepts have led the way and Vari-Pitch Props
have sealed the deal. Imagine a prop that is hydraulic for a lot less than
Hartzell. It's up to Larry at Vari-pitch to tell you how much but I'm going
to be into a flying RV-10 for under $75,000 and that includes GRT dual
displays.
Go ahead, buy the lycasaurus, but some of us won't and it may take a few
weeks longer to work out the wrinkles, but if we didn't want to do that we
would have bought a used Beech V Tail and just been like the rest of the
crowd.
Bob K
Finishing kit and Cosmo 20B
PS: See you at OSHKOSH.
Message 61
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|
--> RV10-List message posted by: "David McNeill" <dlm46007@cox.net>
Gave Mistral a serious look at OSH 2004. There cost was about 30-35K and
lots of mods. My building partner is Swiss American and while home he
visited the factory and toured and talked with the engineers. They had lots
of excess heat problems. They had a booth and airplane, a Piper I believe.
lots of mods for the cooling ducting to the radiators. Net. About the same
price as Van's Lycoming but lots of engineering required to make it work in
the 10. I bought a new IO 540 before the price rises.
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 6:07 PM
Any life from Mistral, the Europeans building Mazda-based rotaries for
airplanes?
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Mon 7/17/2006 8:52 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
An effective aircraft powerplant needs reliability. You should see the
size and weight of our PSRU on the PW123 and PW150. They weigh as much
as any forged steel crank ever would. Only difference is the 17:1
reduction to bring those turbine speeds down to manageable prop
swinging. Oh, and they are way out front to balance the lighter
powerplant.
I have a friend who has built Subies for the Auto Race circuit. Love
the power, hate the noise, can't tolerate the seal replacement
frequency. His clients have the money and trailer it home when it needs
servicing. Thanks, I am calcifying into a dinosaur as we read.
John
Do not Archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Johnston
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 1:17 PM
I'll just chime in with my .02.....I came to flying after a long love
affair with drag racing. I built my share of race engines, and saw the
technology steadily improve over about a 10 year period. Some engines
were built to run hard and long and be bulletproof. Some just for the
occasional blast down the quarter mile only to possibly explode at the
far end. Anyway, fast forward to when I got to the systems part in
private pilot training, and my jaw dropped. I couldn't believe what I
had been flying behind. Burns how much oil? Don't pull the power all
the way back and shock cool the engine? Plug fouling, leaky, looser
tolerances, hard starting, low TBO, mixture knob... you all know the
drill. And yes, I know there are nicer and not so nice aircraft
engines, but remember, I'm new, so I get to rent what's on the line at
my local airfield, so it's the beat up 172 with a hodge-podge of
avionics, no door seals, and an intermittent fuel gauge. I'm getting
over the shock, and I haven't yet had one quit on me, but when I started
building, I resolved to go a better way. I researched all the usual
suspects for alternatives - rotary, turbine, H-opposed 6 (sube) - and
the only one I could find with any sort of contiguous history was the
Egg sube. I have high hopes for this package, as the benefits are
many... electronically controlled spark and mixture, smoother running,
low oil consumption, more main bearings that are more closely spaced,
and also the fact that there's not a big heavy thing bolted directly to
the crank swinging around. I know that sounds funny, but to me,
building a nice, tight, balanced, harmonically controlled engine, then
bolting a big, heavy variable to one end of the crank doesn't sound like
a good idea. Also, that cool new 4 blade MT prop that they are working
with will look super cool :-)!! Having said all that, for me, the RV-10
package is just not quite far enough along. I don't want to make a
career out of trying to power my airplane, I just want to finish and
fly. I kind of wish I had the balls to give it a try, but I'm just not
sure I want to be that much of a test pilot. I really respect and
heartily support those who are going with the package, and I think it's
probably going to work pretty well. I stay current on the Egg email
list so that I can watch their progress, and it looks promising. For
me, (sigh) I'm going to have to go the regular old IO-540 route and try
to update it as much as possible with things like electronic ignition
and WHOOPEE (sarcastic) roller lifters. I'll just keep hoping that
someone will come out with a FADEC for the 540, and that will make it a
bit better. If I'm making the 540 sound dismal, it's only because I
know that engine technology is capable of so much better...
cj
#40410
fuse
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:53 AM
Well......I hesitate because my experience was limited and long ago,
but.....
When I was researching an engine for the -7 that got turned into a -10,
I spent time on the Egg list, lurking. Finally I, too, asked questions
about performance numbers. I also asked when questions posed by others
were ever going to get a straight answer, for I had grown increasingly
uncomfortable with the lack thereof. I got slammed by Jan, publicly
denounced for not having faith in the product. Etc. Etc. "It just
works" is not a quote, but pretty close. Given that I was researching
an engine that was going into an airplane, not a car, I figured that if
I was going to get that type of response, I'd leave it up to the true
believers and those with enough engineering background to do their own
calculations. I, too, have been pulling for someone to make it
successfully as an alternative, but not with an attitude like I found on
the Egg site. His is a product destined for an environment that
deserves careful testing and honesty with customers. I have a certain
amount of faith, shaken by the crank issues, in current certified engine
technology, but Jan got an F in the faith department with his
bludgeoning prose and public scorn for those who ask the correct
questions. I don't know about delivery issues and other problems, and
those can be expected, but they need to be handled with openness. We
are a forgiving bunch. We know the problems that exist for small
companies trying to get a complex product out the door. I guess if
you're intent on being an Egg customer, then you must be convinced that
the engine is what it's claimed to be by Egg. In some areas of life, I
do not feel I have enough information and smarts to be an early adopter.
Good luck! I hope it all works out, because we do need alternatives.
John Jessen
328
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:26 AM
Here we go again....
In all fairness to delivery dates, I can name every major vendor out
there that has slipped dates. I have paid in full for my Chelton with
harness and had the dates slipped on my harness from Direct to Avionics,
and the last time I called they had not even finalized the package.
Another one comes to mind is Tru-trak, I have had my servos on order
before May, and have been told several times they would be shipped in
the next few days, it is now July and I still do not have them. Does
this make me mad? No, just disappointed, but I planned for the delays
and in such I will get them and do not have to stress about it, and it
will be the same with the engine.
These small production numbers do not lend themselves well to
predictable delivery times, and as such, we need to be tolerant of them
and slips. One thing Jan has the ability to do well is communicate to
his customers. He is forth coming with changes and allows us to be part
of it. He has kept us informed of the steps along the way. It is an
experimental engine, that is currently being designed, so yes, there
will be delays. But all you have to do is call and he will give you his
best guess, and that is what it is a guess at that time because
unforeseen things come up, the PSRU change comes to mind. But these
delays end up in a better product.
As for the performance figures, they are right on with a Lycoming, and
since this is being sold as a Lycoming replacement, I would say that it
is living right up to expectations. Yes, the cost is the same in the
beginning, but during a re-build, you will get a brand new engine, for
less than it would cost to just do a top overhaul on a Lycoming.
As for the RV10 the package is too new to tell on performance numbers,
but once I am flying with it, I will have a FWF solution including a C/S
speed prop, that in total costs significantly less than a New Lycoming
FWF solution.
I would like to know where you got your information on the resale
numbers, because I am only aware of one sale with an E-Subaru, and that
was for the same amount a standard would sell for. I am not aware on any
other sales, but they could be out there.
The end result is this, in the alternative engine market Jan is the
leader for RV's. The other two have fallen flat on their face or have
gone out of business. I have been following this engine package for
years, and like what I see, and the progress that has been made. More
importantly, I trust Jan and his ability to deliver on the engine, and
if there are issues I am confident in his ability to fix them. This is
the alternative engine market, and something's have to be taken on faith
and your trust in the person.
We all jumped on the RV10 bandwagon, even before performance numbers
were truly known, and this was because we trust in Vans Aircraft and
their commitment to deliver a good product. Many of us ordered before
the kits had even begun being designed, but that was because we trusted
they would make it and make it right, and the delivery times might have
slipped, even as large as Vans is, they did slip on time in the early
kits. I imagine back in the early 80's, people were having the same
discussions about Van's and their ability to deliver, we just did not
have the internet to pontificate about it.
So in all reality, Mike get over it, the engine is not for you, we all
know it is not for you, but you do not have to tear down another persons
business, to make yourself feel better about your decision. All of the
vendors have suffered in delivery times, just get over it.
Dan Lloyd
40269 (N289DT)
Fuselage
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:17 AM
Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list for asking
him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10. One
of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a
very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he wouldn't allow
one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no
problem with a potential customer being so. And no, he will never give
dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As far as non-delivery,
do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will
find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates.
One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after the
engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year. Oh and
the "complete" firewall forward package apparently wasn't so complete
either. I'm sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully won't threaten
him to take down the site.
My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due
diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a Lycoming
after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs
engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on that
list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several people off
list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already ordered
and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the status
quo.
I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of
producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow up
his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I am also not
saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after
all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to
tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some
light on things. I have the full history of the email conversations in
question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is
welcome to do so.
James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines? If not, I
strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In reality
the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package
that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different, the fuel
flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be much
different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale value,
expect it to be much less.
Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as
not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
===================================
===================================
===================================
===================================
Message 62
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| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Dean Van Winkle" <dvanwinkle@royell.net>
Tim
Mistral will be at Oshkosh near Van's location. Check with them for their
latest progress.
Dean Van Winkle
RV-9A Finish Mazda 13B NA, Mistral Intake Manifold
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:07 PM
Any life from Mistral, the Europeans building Mazda-based rotaries for
airplanes?
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Mon 7/17/2006 8:52 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@pacificnw.com>
An effective aircraft powerplant needs reliability. You should see the
size and weight of our PSRU on the PW123 and PW150. They weigh as much
as any forged steel crank ever would. Only difference is the 17:1
reduction to bring those turbine speeds down to manageable prop
swinging. Oh, and they are way out front to balance the lighter
powerplant.
I have a friend who has built Subies for the Auto Race circuit. Love
the power, hate the noise, can't tolerate the seal replacement
frequency. His clients have the money and trailer it home when it needs
servicing. Thanks, I am calcifying into a dinosaur as we read.
John
Do not Archive
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Johnston
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 1:17 PM
I'll just chime in with my .02.....I came to flying after a long love
affair with drag racing. I built my share of race engines, and saw the
technology steadily improve over about a 10 year period. Some engines
were built to run hard and long and be bulletproof. Some just for the
occasional blast down the quarter mile only to possibly explode at the
far end. Anyway, fast forward to when I got to the systems part in
private pilot training, and my jaw dropped. I couldn't believe what I
had been flying behind. Burns how much oil? Don't pull the power all
the way back and shock cool the engine? Plug fouling, leaky, looser
tolerances, hard starting, low TBO, mixture knob... you all know the
drill. And yes, I know there are nicer and not so nice aircraft
engines, but remember, I'm new, so I get to rent what's on the line at
my local airfield, so it's the beat up 172 with a hodge-podge of
avionics, no door seals, and an intermittent fuel gauge. I'm getting
over the shock, and I haven't yet had one quit on me, but when I started
building, I resolved to go a better way. I researched all the usual
suspects for alternatives - rotary, turbine, H-opposed 6 (sube) - and
the only one I could find with any sort of contiguous history was the
Egg sube. I have high hopes for this package, as the benefits are
many... electronically controlled spark and mixture, smoother running,
low oil consumption, more main bearings that are more closely spaced,
and also the fact that there's not a big heavy thing bolted directly to
the crank swinging around. I know that sounds funny, but to me,
building a nice, tight, balanced, harmonically controlled engine, then
bolting a big, heavy variable to one end of the crank doesn't sound like
a good idea. Also, that cool new 4 blade MT prop that they are working
with will look super cool :-)!! Having said all that, for me, the RV-10
package is just not quite far enough along. I don't want to make a
career out of trying to power my airplane, I just want to finish and
fly. I kind of wish I had the balls to give it a try, but I'm just not
sure I want to be that much of a test pilot. I really respect and
heartily support those who are going with the package, and I think it's
probably going to work pretty well. I stay current on the Egg email
list so that I can watch their progress, and it looks promising. For
me, (sigh) I'm going to have to go the regular old IO-540 route and try
to update it as much as possible with things like electronic ignition
and WHOOPEE (sarcastic) roller lifters. I'll just keep hoping that
someone will come out with a FADEC for the 540, and that will make it a
bit better. If I'm making the 540 sound dismal, it's only because I
know that engine technology is capable of so much better...
cj
#40410
fuse
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:53 AM
Well......I hesitate because my experience was limited and long ago,
but.....
When I was researching an engine for the -7 that got turned into a -10,
I spent time on the Egg list, lurking. Finally I, too, asked questions
about performance numbers. I also asked when questions posed by others
were ever going to get a straight answer, for I had grown increasingly
uncomfortable with the lack thereof. I got slammed by Jan, publicly
denounced for not having faith in the product. Etc. Etc. "It just
works" is not a quote, but pretty close. Given that I was researching
an engine that was going into an airplane, not a car, I figured that if
I was going to get that type of response, I'd leave it up to the true
believers and those with enough engineering background to do their own
calculations. I, too, have been pulling for someone to make it
successfully as an alternative, but not with an attitude like I found on
the Egg site. His is a product destined for an environment that
deserves careful testing and honesty with customers. I have a certain
amount of faith, shaken by the crank issues, in current certified engine
technology, but Jan got an F in the faith department with his
bludgeoning prose and public scorn for those who ask the correct
questions. I don't know about delivery issues and other problems, and
those can be expected, but they need to be handled with openness. We
are a forgiving bunch. We know the problems that exist for small
companies trying to get a complex product out the door. I guess if
you're intent on being an Egg customer, then you must be convinced that
the engine is what it's claimed to be by Egg. In some areas of life, I
do not feel I have enough information and smarts to be an early adopter.
Good luck! I hope it all works out, because we do need alternatives.
John Jessen
328
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:26 AM
Here we go again....
In all fairness to delivery dates, I can name every major vendor out
there that has slipped dates. I have paid in full for my Chelton with
harness and had the dates slipped on my harness from Direct to Avionics,
and the last time I called they had not even finalized the package.
Another one comes to mind is Tru-trak, I have had my servos on order
before May, and have been told several times they would be shipped in
the next few days, it is now July and I still do not have them. Does
this make me mad? No, just disappointed, but I planned for the delays
and in such I will get them and do not have to stress about it, and it
will be the same with the engine.
These small production numbers do not lend themselves well to
predictable delivery times, and as such, we need to be tolerant of them
and slips. One thing Jan has the ability to do well is communicate to
his customers. He is forth coming with changes and allows us to be part
of it. He has kept us informed of the steps along the way. It is an
experimental engine, that is currently being designed, so yes, there
will be delays. But all you have to do is call and he will give you his
best guess, and that is what it is a guess at that time because
unforeseen things come up, the PSRU change comes to mind. But these
delays end up in a better product.
As for the performance figures, they are right on with a Lycoming, and
since this is being sold as a Lycoming replacement, I would say that it
is living right up to expectations. Yes, the cost is the same in the
beginning, but during a re-build, you will get a brand new engine, for
less than it would cost to just do a top overhaul on a Lycoming.
As for the RV10 the package is too new to tell on performance numbers,
but once I am flying with it, I will have a FWF solution including a C/S
speed prop, that in total costs significantly less than a New Lycoming
FWF solution.
I would like to know where you got your information on the resale
numbers, because I am only aware of one sale with an E-Subaru, and that
was for the same amount a standard would sell for. I am not aware on any
other sales, but they could be out there.
The end result is this, in the alternative engine market Jan is the
leader for RV's. The other two have fallen flat on their face or have
gone out of business. I have been following this engine package for
years, and like what I see, and the progress that has been made. More
importantly, I trust Jan and his ability to deliver on the engine, and
if there are issues I am confident in his ability to fix them. This is
the alternative engine market, and something's have to be taken on faith
and your trust in the person.
We all jumped on the RV10 bandwagon, even before performance numbers
were truly known, and this was because we trust in Vans Aircraft and
their commitment to deliver a good product. Many of us ordered before
the kits had even begun being designed, but that was because we trusted
they would make it and make it right, and the delivery times might have
slipped, even as large as Vans is, they did slip on time in the early
kits. I imagine back in the early 80's, people were having the same
discussions about Van's and their ability to deliver, we just did not
have the internet to pontificate about it.
So in all reality, Mike get over it, the engine is not for you, we all
know it is not for you, but you do not have to tear down another persons
business, to make yourself feel better about your decision. All of the
vendors have suffered in delivery times, just get over it.
Dan Lloyd
40269 (N289DT)
Fuselage
________________________________
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:17 AM
Oh boy do I have some history. Jan booted me from his list for asking
him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10. One
of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a
very straightforward set of comments. Jan then said he wouldn't allow
one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no
problem with a potential customer being so. And no, he will never give
dyno numbers. He doesn't feel it is necessary. As far as non-delivery,
do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will
find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates.
One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after the
engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year. Oh and
the "complete" firewall forward package apparently wasn't so complete
either. I'm sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully won't threaten
him to take down the site.
My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due
diligence on his offerings. I made my decision to go with a Lycoming
after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs
engine and hanging around on his list. Anytime someone spoke up on that
list they were slammed back down. I was contacted by several people off
list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already ordered
and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the status
quo.
I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of
producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow up
his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts. I am also not
saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after
all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to
tell. I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some
light on things. I have the full history of the email conversations in
question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is
welcome to do so.
James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines? If not, I
strongly suggest you do some serious background research. In reality
the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package
that can keep MP to altitude. The cost isn't much different, the fuel
flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be much
different from a Lycoming. What will be different is the resale value,
expect it to be much less.
Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM
Micheal,
It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.
For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as
not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of
non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?
I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you
request.
James
... no dog in this hunt
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once. I'm
shocked! Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.
Now how about some dyno numbers?
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
Recent RV-10 Build Activity
<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
EAAINC@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM
I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged
220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.
Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.
Jan
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
===================================
===================================
===================================
===================================
Message 63
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|
| Subject: | Re: Headliner before cabin cover riveting? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
Has anybody uncovered a way to finish off the edges of the headliner
where they meet the windows and other surfaces, so there's not just a
cut edge?
Deems
Tim Olson wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> It would be easiest to install the headliner before you put the canopy
> on. Plan ahead though and don't glue the lower 2 or 3" and leave a
> few inches extra that will go below the canopy top and trim it all
> later. The only catch is, while it's easier to do the headliner
> later, that will assume you have the interior cabin top painted
> already in the non-covered areas. And some of those areas around the
> doors may need to be filed down in the future to make the doors fit
> better. So, you may end up with some rework around the doors on
> your paint unless you either get lucky, or have it all together
> enough to know your doors are all ready to go.
>
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> Dan Masys wrote:
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys <dmasys@cox.net>
>>
>> I am at point in the plans where it says to rivet the cabin cover on,
>> but I was waiting till OSH to go see about interior upholstery
>> (probably from Flightline). In the archives there is chat about
>> installing the headliner before installing the cabin cover. Is
>> putting the headliner in a big enough deal that I should wait before
>> riveting the structure together, or just one of those things that is
>> nice to do if you have the chance? (Sure would be nice to get the
>> structures part of the project out of the way to move onto FWF and
>> systems goodies.)
>>
>> -Dan Masys #40448
>>
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
Message 64
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|
| Subject: | Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
--> RV10-List message posted by: LIKE2LOOP@aol.com
In a message dated 7/17/06 9:57 pm, bob.kaufmann@cox.net writes:
<< I will easily get 280 horsepower from the engine and will burn a little
more gas. I'll burn .50 lbs per horsepower instead on .42. >>
Is that fuel consumption number estimated or from a flying plane? I
drive a Mazda RX-8 and the gas milage sucks!!! Between 14-18mpg with one
165# driver and NO heavy loads. The EPA says I should get 18/24 (but they don't
test drive the cars, they estmate) NO Way can I get their numbers.
Driving like a granny in flat Florida, 18 mpg is the best keeping rpm below
3000. It does run smooth, and I bet TBO will be good due to very low parts
count, but the three firings per rotation eats fuell. The higher rpm the more fuel
flow x3. Just something to think about. I was thinking about how to adjust
fuel use by firing once per rev at cruise.....vs 3 times....???
do not archive
Steve
Port St. Lucie, FL
772-475-5556
Sent from my Treo 600
Message 65
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| Subject: | Re: Headliner before cabin cover riveting? |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "DejaVu" <wvu@ameritel.net>
I did mine after puting the canopy top on. It seems that you don't gain
much one way or the other. Regarding the edges, I sewed (yeah!) figure-8
cross-section molding strips and glue them in place using the same headline
material. Most folks just fold the edges under, including hundreds of
airplanes I looked at during one SNF.
Anh
#141
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:36 PM
>
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net>
>
> Has anybody uncovered a way to finish off the edges of the headliner where
> they meet the windows and other surfaces, so there's not just a cut edge?
>
> Deems
>
> Tim Olson wrote:
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>>
>> It would be easiest to install the headliner before you put the canopy
>> on. Plan ahead though and don't glue the lower 2 or 3" and leave a
>> few inches extra that will go below the canopy top and trim it all
>> later. The only catch is, while it's easier to do the headliner
>> later, that will assume you have the interior cabin top painted
>> already in the non-covered areas. And some of those areas around the
>> doors may need to be filed down in the future to make the doors fit
>> better. So, you may end up with some rework around the doors on
>> your paint unless you either get lucky, or have it all together
>> enough to know your doors are all ready to go.
>>
>>
>> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>> Dan Masys wrote:
>>
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys <dmasys@cox.net>
>>>
>>> I am at point in the plans where it says to rivet the cabin cover on,
>>> but I was waiting till OSH to go see about interior upholstery
>>> (probably from Flightline). In the archives there is chat about
>>> installing the headliner before installing the cabin cover. Is
>>> putting the headliner in a big enough deal that I should wait before
>>> riveting the structure together, or just one of those things that is
>>> nice to do if you have the chance? (Sure would be nice to get the
>>> structures part of the project out of the way to move onto FWF and
>>> systems goodies.)
>>>
>>> -Dan Masys #40448
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> http://wiki.matronics.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
Message 66
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Chapter 237 in Minneapolis has RV-10 kits for sale. They include the
empennage which has been assembled, the Quick Build wing and fuselage kits.
The latter are still in the crates as shipped from Van's. An EAA Technical
Counselor and a two time RV builder pronounce the workmanship excellent on
the tail feathers. Contact below or <mailto:atirburgess@msn.com>
atirburgess at msn.com for more information.
Lyle Peterson
lyleap at comcast.net
651-653-2063
Message 67
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I have a hard time keeping the static lines on the pop-rivet ports. Any
suggestions?
Anh
#141
Message 68
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| Subject: | NO LONGER Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Robert G. Wright" <armywrights@adelphia.net>
Ok, everyone, be proud of your choices, but don't lump the rest of the
builders into one category "rest of the crowd" or another "purists."
Any minute now somebody's bound to start discussing priming or not, types of
primers/paints, flying or painting first, vertical or horizontal stacked
EFIS, or anything else that's _Purely_Builder_Preference_!
Rick S, I dunno 'bout them Red Sox!
Rob
#392
Yes, I too, have purchased a powerplant. I just wish I could run it with
the dried up grass from my lawn. Rain, please?
--> RV10-List message posted by: "bob.kaufmann" <bob.kaufmann@cox.net>
Go ahead, buy the lycasaurus, but some of us won't and it may take a few
weeks longer to work out the wrinkles, but if we didn't want to do that we
would have bought a used Beech V Tail and just been like the rest of the
crowd.
Bob K
Finishing kit and Cosmo 20B
Message 69
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I really like the static ports from cleaveland tool, worth the $$....i
didn=92t rivet them, but I used structural epoxy and its looks great=85
Steve
40205
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:42 PM
I have a hard time keeping the static lines on the pop-rivet ports. Any
suggestions?
Anh
#141
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
7/14/2006
--
7/14/2006
Message 70
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| Subject: | Re: Static Ports |
get some real static ports. See aircraft spruce
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/staticports2.php. These
will also take the nyflo fittings.
----- Original Message -----
From: DejaVu
To: RV10
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:42 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Static Ports
I have a hard time keeping the static lines on the pop-rivet ports.
Any suggestions?
Anh
#141
Message 71
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| Subject: | NO LONGER Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
Uh, please don't utter the words "rain please" during the week prior to
Oshkosh! : )
TDT
40025
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tue 7/18/2006 12:02 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Robert G. Wright"
<armywrights@adelphia.net>
Ok, everyone, be proud of your choices, but don't lump the rest of the
builders into one category "rest of the crowd" or another "purists."
Any minute now somebody's bound to start discussing priming or not,
types of
primers/paints, flying or painting first, vertical or horizontal stacked
EFIS, or anything else that's _Purely_Builder_Preference_!
Rick S, I dunno 'bout them Red Sox!
Rob
#392
Yes, I too, have purchased a powerplant. I just wish I could run it
with
the dried up grass from my lawn. Rain, please?
--> RV10-List message posted by: "bob.kaufmann" <bob.kaufmann@cox.net>
Go ahead, buy the lycasaurus, but some of us won't and it may take a few
weeks longer to work out the wrinkles, but if we didn't want to do that
we
would have bought a used Beech V Tail and just been like the rest of
the
crowd.
Bob K
Finishing kit and Cosmo 20B
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
Message 72
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| Subject: | Re: Static Ports |
I have read some comments that seem to say that the Vans static port
kit is actually very accurate in spite of being cheap and simple.
Does anybody have any comparison with the Aircraft Spruce and other
more sophisticated systems? I know they look way better, but am
interested in performance.
David Maib
40559 tailcone
do not archive
On Jul 17, 2006, at 11:24 PM, David McNeill wrote:
get some real static ports. See aircraft spruce http://
www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/staticports2.php. These will
also take the nyflo fittings.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:42 PM
I have a hard time keeping the static lines on the pop-rivet ports.
Any suggestions?
Anh
#141
Message 73
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
--> RV10-List message posted by: "David M." <ainut@hiwaay.net>
Rotaries do burn more fuel per hp than 'regular' engines. Partly due to
fuel cooling. However, one can't really compare the auto mpg to
aviation use unless you factor in the tranny and rear end losses, as
well as gearing.
David M.
LIKE2LOOP@aol.com wrote:
>--> RV10-List message posted by: LIKE2LOOP@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 7/17/06 9:57 pm, bob.kaufmann@cox.net writes:
><< I will easily get 280 horsepower from the engine and will burn a little
>more gas. I'll burn .50 lbs per horsepower instead on .42. >>
>
> Is that fuel consumption number estimated or from a flying plane? I
>drive a Mazda RX-8 and the gas milage sucks!!! Between 14-18mpg with one
>165# driver and NO heavy loads. The EPA says I should get 18/24 (but they don't
>test drive the cars, they estmate) NO Way can I get their numbers.
>Driving like a granny in flat Florida, 18 mpg is the best keeping rpm below
>3000. It does run smooth, and I bet TBO will be good due to very low parts
>count, but the three firings per rotation eats fuell. The higher rpm the more
fuel
>flow x3. Just something to think about. I was thinking about how to adjust
>fuel use by firing once per rev at cruise.....vs 3 times....???
>
>do not archive
>
>Steve
>
>Port St. Lucie, FL
>772-475-5556
>
>Sent from my Treo 600
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 74
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials |
You are welcome. But more so important is for someone (in this case YOU) to
come back and say "thanks" to someone who (hopefully politely) questions how
stuff is "put out there". To me that says way more about you than even your
detailed response.
James
On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder@sausen.net> wrote:
>
> James, thanks for calling BS on me BTW. I'm always happy to have someone
> question a statement on the list as there is waaaay too much fluff thrown
> around on the net. I TRY to have facts when I post as I don't like it when
> people point to me and say he's full of it. :) Of course no one is perfect
> and I can always rely on John, Dan, and others to point out the errors of my
> ways and I will always be the first to stand up and say I'm wrong. I just
> try to make sure it doesn't happen very often. ;-)
>
> <<<SNIP>>>
>
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