Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:27 AM - Re: Re: Re: External Brake Lines - crack (John MacCallum)
2. 03:40 AM - Re: Re: External Brake Lines - crack (Rob Kermanj)
3. 05:25 AM - Main gear fire (kevino)
4. 07:13 AM - Re: Main gear fire (Tim Olson)
5. 07:27 AM - Re: Re: External Brake Lines - crack (Kelly McMullen)
6. 07:32 AM - Re: Main gear fire (Kelly McMullen)
7. 08:49 AM - Re: Main gear fire (kevino)
8. 08:54 AM - Re: Main gear fire (Linn Walters)
9. 09:44 AM - Re: Main gear fire (kevino)
10. 09:58 AM - Re: Main gear fire (Marcus Cooper)
11. 10:46 AM - Re: Main gear fire (John Cox)
12. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Tim Olson)
13. 01:07 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Dj Merrill)
14. 01:07 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Linn Walters)
15. 01:28 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Robin Marks)
16. 01:33 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Miller John)
17. 01:43 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Kelly McMullen)
18. 01:52 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Kelly McMullen)
19. 02:15 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Kevin Belue)
20. 02:32 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Tim Olson)
21. 04:25 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Miller John)
22. 05:04 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (John Cumins)
23. 06:40 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Dave Saylor)
24. 06:41 PM - Bose A20 Headset - NR Power Button - Panel Power (Matt Dralle)
25. 06:53 PM - Big Sky Air Race (Scott Schmidt)
26. 07:16 PM - brake bleeding (Linn Walters)
27. 08:11 PM - Re: Big Sky Air Race (Robin Marks)
28. 08:11 PM - Re: Bose A20 Headset - NR Power Button - Panel Power (Tim Olson)
29. 08:58 PM - Re: External Brake Lines - crack (William Curtis)
30. 09:24 PM - Re: Re: External Brake Lines - crack (Kelly McMullen)
31. 09:35 PM - Re: Re: External Brake Lines - crack (Linn Walters)
32. 09:53 PM - Re: Re: External Brake Lines - crack (William Curtis)
33. 10:11 PM - Re: Re: External Brake Lines - crack (Kelly McMullen)
34. 10:32 PM - Re: Big Sky Air Race (Scott Schmidt)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: External Brake Lines - crack |
G'day Evan,
just thought I would say hello. Good to see another Aussie builder. I'm
currently working on
The brake lines myself and I was looking at the plans and thought that the
solid lines going down
The gear leg was not an ideal way to do it.
Cheers
John MacCallum
Builder # 41016
VH-DUU
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of E & T Andrews
Sent: Saturday, 9 July 2011 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: External Brake Lines - crack
Many thanks everyone for your input. Vans should consider including the
flexible hose lines in the RV10 kit... has this been raised with Vans
before?
all the best
Evan Andrews
VH-OSH Flying 154hrs
-----Original Message-----
From: rv10flyer
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 5:49 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: External Brake Lines - crack
31 1/2" -3 hose with -4 straight fittings on each end. Like Tim said they
know exactly what you need. Everything fit fine on mine. The two hoses from
copilot master cylinders to reservoir tee fitting were 1" too long but they
still worked.
+1 for 5052-O fuel/brake lines. Van's 3003-O is going to be hauled off for
scrap this winter after flying. 5052-O would have broken too...it just takes
twice as long.
Back to wheel pants...oh I love fiberglass. At least the end is near as my
pile of parts is getting real small. Ted Chang's BIG West trip on VAF has
really got me motivated now. Looking forward to some cool fall test flying.
--------
Wayne Gillispie, A&P 5/93, PPC 10/08
Bldr# 40983 SB Started 12/1/09.
Fuselage Sec 46 Eng mount/Gear- 1359 hrs to date.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345325#345325
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| Subject: | Re: External Brake Lines - crack |
I have been reading about the solid break lines and I wanted to tell everyone about
my experience that seems to be completely different than what the group is
thinking.
I have constructed my break lines solid all the way to the calipers on my RV6 with
1300 hrs of time and perhaps 800-900 landings and my RV10 with 530 hrs of
time and 400 landings.
Both planes have not had any failures. I think that if you use the right faring
tool and take care not to have nicks and cracks, solid lines work just fine.
After all, having less part count, in principal, is not a bad idea.
Do not archive.
On Jul 9, 2011, at 4:23 AM, John MacCallum wrote:
>
> G'day Evan,
> just thought I would say hello. Good to see another Aussie builder. I'm
> currently working on
> The brake lines myself and I was looking at the plans and thought that the
> solid lines going down
> The gear leg was not an ideal way to do it.
>
> Cheers
>
> John MacCallum
> Builder # 41016
> VH-DUU
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of E & T Andrews
> Sent: Saturday, 9 July 2011 3:07 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: External Brake Lines - crack
>
>
> Many thanks everyone for your input. Vans should consider including the
> flexible hose lines in the RV10 kit... has this been raised with Vans
> before?
>
> all the best
>
> Evan Andrews
>
> VH-OSH Flying 154hrs
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rv10flyer
> Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 5:49 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Re: External Brake Lines - crack
>
>
> 31 1/2" -3 hose with -4 straight fittings on each end. Like Tim said they
> know exactly what you need. Everything fit fine on mine. The two hoses from
> copilot master cylinders to reservoir tee fitting were 1" too long but they
> still worked.
>
> +1 for 5052-O fuel/brake lines. Van's 3003-O is going to be hauled off for
> scrap this winter after flying. 5052-O would have broken too...it just takes
>
> twice as long.
>
> Back to wheel pants...oh I love fiberglass. At least the end is near as my
> pile of parts is getting real small. Ted Chang's BIG West trip on VAF has
> really got me motivated now. Looking forward to some cool fall test flying.
>
> --------
> Wayne Gillispie, A&P 5/93, PPC 10/08
> Bldr# 40983 SB Started 12/1/09.
> Fuselage Sec 46 Eng mount/Gear- 1359 hrs to date.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345325#345325
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Message 3
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Yesterday flew to Bangor Maine. Has a very long taxi for rw 15 from ga ramp. Near
end lost left brake. Ac did several loops getting it stopped. Called ground
who is over a mile away and told him I lost brake and he advised I was on fire.
Evacuated all four people and grabbed fire ext. Fire was in full force with
flames close to reaching wing. Used ext 2.5 halon and snuffed flame. Restarted
in about 15 sec. Did it again. Looked up and crash was on their way. They were
there in two minutes from ground telling me was on fire. Never knew I had fire
until they told me. The fire ext and outstanding crash rescue saved the day.
Lost the tire, wheel pant, brakes. Maine aero jumped on the airplane when I
finally worked thru the red tape and got it towed in. Replaced tire, rebuilt
brakes, pulled wheel pants and flew home last nite. An outstanding response from
the crash crew, airport crew and Maine aero, ray lane and his whole crew.
Cause was probably brake slightly dragging and needing to keep hitting left brake
for directional control while taxiing several miles.
Thought you all might be interested. The lack of awareness that a fire had started
was frightening.without ground telling me I would not have got it in time
not to mention an air force crash crew that was outstanding.
Anybody have a spare left wheel pant?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345552#345552
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Main gear fire |
Sorry to hear about the fire and associated headaches. Can you say which brake
fluid you used....the high temp stuff or the standard stuff? That would be good
info.
Tim
On Jul 9, 2011, at 7:22 AM, "kevino" <kevino@worldwarehouse.com> wrote:
>
> Yesterday flew to Bangor Maine. Has a very long taxi for rw 15 from ga ramp.
Near end lost left brake. Ac did several loops getting it stopped. Called ground
who is over a mile away and told him I lost brake and he advised I was on fire.
Evacuated all four people and grabbed fire ext. Fire was in full force with
flames close to reaching wing. Used ext 2.5 halon and snuffed flame. Restarted
in about 15 sec. Did it again. Looked up and crash was on their way. They
were there in two minutes from ground telling me was on fire. Never knew I had
fire until they told me. The fire ext and outstanding crash rescue saved the
day. Lost the tire, wheel pant, brakes. Maine aero jumped on the airplane when
I finally worked thru the red tape and got it towed in. Replaced tire, rebuilt
brakes, pulled wheel pants and flew home last nite. An outstanding response
from the crash crew, airport crew and Maine aero, ray lane and his whole crew.
> Cause was probably brake slightly dragging and needing to keep hitting left brake
for directional control while taxiing several miles.
> Thought you all might be interested. The lack of awareness that a fire had started
was frightening.without ground telling me I would not have got it in time
not to mention an air force crash crew that was outstanding.
> Anybody have a spare left wheel pant?
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345552#345552
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: External Brake Lines - crack |
Van's would consider adding flex lines about the same time as they
consider stocking the correct nose wheel. They won't change the nose
wheel even though the correct one is exactly the same price. Flex
lines could add over $100 to the cost, especially if you include flex
lines in place of the crummy nylon lines in the cabin. Somehow we have
been deluded into wanting durability similar to certified
aircraft................what a crazy idea.
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 10:06 PM, E & T Andrews <etandrews@westnet.com.au> wrote:
Vans should consider including the
> flexible hose lines in the RV10 kit... has this been raised with Vans
> before?
>
> all the best
>
> Evan Andrews
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Main gear fire |
That would be Mil 83282 brake fluid as opposed to Mil 5606.
On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 7:10 AM, Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com> wrote:
>
> Sorry to hear about the fire and associated headaches. Can you say which brake
fluid you used....the high temp stuff or the standard stuff? That would be good
info.
> Tim
>
>
> On Jul 9, 2011, at 7:22 AM, "kevino" <kevino@worldwarehouse.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Yesterday flew to Bangor Maine. Has a very long taxi for rw 15 from ga ramp.
Near end lost left brake. Ac did several loops getting it stopped. Called ground
who is over a mile away and told him I lost brake and he advised I was on
fire. Evacuated all four people and grabbed fire ext. Fire was in full force with
flames close to reaching wing. Used ext 2.5 halon and snuffed flame.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Main gear fire |
5606. Hadn't thought about that
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345587#345587
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Main gear fire |
What kind of brake line did you have attached to the wheel cylinder???
I'm guessing that the fire was due to a brake fluid leak ..... how did
it escape???
Linn
On 7/9/2011 8:22 AM, kevino wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "kevino"<kevino@worldwarehouse.com>
>
> Yesterday flew to Bangor Maine. Has a very long taxi for rw 15 from ga ramp.
Near end lost left brake. Ac did several loops getting it stopped. Called ground
who is over a mile away and told him I lost brake and he advised I was on fire.
Evacuated all four people and grabbed fire ext. Fire was in full force with
flames close to reaching wing. Used ext 2.5 halon and snuffed flame. Restarted
in about 15 sec. Did it again. Looked up and crash was on their way. They
were there in two minutes from ground telling me was on fire. Never knew I had
fire until they told me. The fire ext and outstanding crash rescue saved the
day. Lost the tire, wheel pant, brakes. Maine aero jumped on the airplane when
I finally worked thru the red tape and got it towed in. Replaced tire, rebuilt
brakes, pulled wheel pants and flew home last nite. An outstanding response
from the crash crew, airport crew and Maine aero, ray lane and his whole crew.
> Cause was probably brake slightly dragging and needing to keep hitting left brake
for directional control while taxiing several miles.
> Thought you all might be interested. The lack of awareness that a fire had started
was frightening.without ground telling me I would not have got it in time
not to mention an air force crash crew that was outstanding.
> Anybody have a spare left wheel pant?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345552#345552
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Main gear fire |
Aluminum lines. No evidence of leaking prior to fire.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345592#345592
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Main gear fire |
Very well handled by all and I'm glad things didn't get any worse than they did.
This is by no means a dig and may not apply to your situation, but food for
thought for all based on some experiences I've seen regarding using the brakes.
I've seen a lot of folks ride the brakes lightly during long taxis to avoid
getting fast. Having flown little airplanes with great big engines and small
wheels/brakes I was taught long ago to let the airplane roll, then apply moderate
braking periodically to keep the speed under control. Brakes will heat
up a lot more when a little pressure is applied over a long time than periodic
more aggressive braking. We used to have an academic slide show that showed
two guys sitting in two kettles of water, one that had a big, rapid fire that
while unpleasant flashed over quickly with no big deal, while the other simmered
over a low continuous fire until it boiled. Probably an odd analogy but pretty
good overall. I saw an Airbus captain taxiing behind a very slow airplane
do the same thing just a few days ago and we had to delay takeoff because of
brakes temps. In short, let the airplane get going without brakes as fast as
you are comfortable then hit the brakes and slow to a crawl, release the brakes
and start over again and your brakes will be much happier and will also be
there for you when you need them.
Marcus
40286
On Jul 9, 2011, at 8:22 AM, kevino wrote:
>
> Yesterday flew to Bangor Maine. Has a very long taxi for rw 15 from ga ramp.
Near end lost left brake. Ac did several loops getting it stopped. Called ground
who is over a mile away and told him I lost brake and he advised I was on fire.
Evacuated all four people and grabbed fire ext. Fire was in full force with
flames close to reaching wing. Used ext 2.5 halon and snuffed flame. Restarted
in about 15 sec. Did it again. Looked up and crash was on their way. They
were there in two minutes from ground telling me was on fire. Never knew I had
fire until they told me. The fire ext and outstanding crash rescue saved the
day. Lost the tire, wheel pant, brakes. Maine aero jumped on the airplane when
I finally worked thru the red tape and got it towed in. Replaced tire, rebuilt
brakes, pulled wheel pants and flew home last nite. An outstanding response
from the crash crew, airport crew and Maine aero, ray lane and his whole crew.
> Cause was probably brake slightly dragging and needing to keep hitting left brake
for directional control while taxiing several miles.
> Thought you all might be interested. The lack of awareness that a fire had started
was frightening.without ground telling me I would not have got it in time
not to mention an air force crash crew that was outstanding.
> Anybody have a spare left wheel pant?
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345552#345552
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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Great information. The mass of our rotors absorbs converted energy in
the form of heat created through friction from the pad contact.
Sustained "deep" heat is worse than momentary higher concentrated heat.
Energy transfer is nearly the same. Vented, drilled rotors and cooling
ductwork can help. More mass, more pad contact area, use of less
flammable brake fluid H-83282 versus H-5606 can only help. On Recips,
lower rpm often also can lead to clinkers forming on the lower plugs.
It is all about appropriate tradeoffs.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Cooper
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Main gear fire
Very well handled by all and I'm glad things didn't get any worse than
they did. This is by no means a dig and may not apply to your
situation, but food for thought for all based on some experiences I've
seen regarding using the brakes. I've seen a lot of folks ride the
brakes lightly during long taxis to avoid getting fast. Having flown
little airplanes with great big engines and small wheels/brakes I was
taught long ago to let the airplane roll, then apply moderate braking
periodically to keep the speed under control. Brakes will heat up a lot
more when a little pressure is applied over a long time than periodic
more aggressive braking. We used to have an academic slide show that
showed two guys sitting in two kettles of water, one that had a big,
rapid fire that while unpleasant flashed over quickly with no big deal,
while the other simmered over a low continuous fire until it boiled.
Probably an odd analogy but pretty good overall. I saw an Airbus
captain taxiing !
behind a very slow airplane do the same thing just a few days ago and
we had to delay takeoff because of brakes temps. In short, let the
airplane get going without brakes as fast as you are comfortable then
hit the brakes and slow to a crawl, release the brakes and start over
again and your brakes will be much happier and will also be there for
you when you need them.
Marcus
40286
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Main gear fire |
I'm FAR from an expert on the stuff, as you can tell by
how Kelly remembers the milspec numbers by heart and I
can't even do that....but here is what Wiki says:
Mil-H-5606: Mineral base, flammable, fairly low flashpoint, usable from
-65 F (-54 C) to 275 F (135 C), red color
Mil-H-83282: Synthetic hydrocarbon base, higher flashpoint,
self-extinguishing, backward compatible to -5606, red color, rated to
-40 F (-40 C) degrees.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fluid
Given that, it's pretty easy to see how brakes can heat up to over
275F on a long taxi. So with our castering nosewheel planes that
kind of invite the bad habit of riding brakes, I think it's
kind of a good idea to just switch it out. It's about $9
for plenty to do the whole plane and have a lot of spare.
I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this
link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606.
http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation/14018/css/14018_178.htm
So that would be my first move now. I should add that to my
page of things to definitely change or do. I think maybe we
as a group should try to keep this info out there so that
nobody uses 5606 at all....none of the fleet. A good friend
of mine with an RV-10 had a wheel fire as well. Wrecked the
tire and causes a bit of other damage. Just a no good situation.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
On 7/9/2011 10:45 AM, kevino wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "kevino"<kevino@worldwarehouse.com>
>
> 5606. Hadn't thought about that
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Main gear fire |
On 7/9/2011 2:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
> I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this
> link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606.
Skygeek has some specs on it:
http://www.skygeek.com/royco-782-synthetic-fire-resistant-hydraulic-fluid.html
then click the "Specifications" tab.
Flash point 218C, 424F
Fire point 251C, 483F
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Main gear fire |
Brake fires are caused by a failure of the system to contain the brake
fluid. We know that cracking of the hard aluminum will allow fluid to
escape. We also know that when brake pads are allowed to wear way down,
the brake puck can extend out far enough so that fluid can escape around
the O-ring. So far, we haven't heard how the fluid escaped or if
"kevino" really knows. Years ago when the 'plastic' aircraft were all
the rage, the failure was caused by the heat melting the plastic brake
lines. Not so, in this case.
So I started to search for some numbers. I found a document here:
http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL+SPECS+%28MIL-H%29/MIL-H-83282C_6037/
which lists minimum flash point at 205 C (405 F) and minimum fire point
at 245 C (473 F). Auto ignition is 345 C (653 F). Minimum pour point
-55 C (-67 F).
For 5606 minimum flash point at 82 C (180 F) (minimum fire
point is missing). (Auto ignition is missing).
Minimum pour point -60 C (-76 F).
Different numbers from Tim's but still significantly different than 5606.
So Tim's suggestion to go to 83282 is a good one.
The 5606 spec was written in 1986 and 83282 in 1994.
Linn
On 7/9/2011 2:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
> I'm FAR from an expert on the stuff, as you can tell by
> how Kelly remembers the milspec numbers by heart and I
> can't even do that....but here is what Wiki says:
>
>
> Mil-H-5606: Mineral base, flammable, fairly low flashpoint, usable
> from -65 F (-54 C) to 275 F (135 C), red color
>
>
> Mil-H-83282: Synthetic hydrocarbon base, higher flashpoint,
> self-extinguishing, backward compatible to -5606, red color, rated to
> -40 F (-40 C) degrees.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fluid
>
>
> Given that, it's pretty easy to see how brakes can heat up to over
> 275F on a long taxi. So with our castering nosewheel planes that
> kind of invite the bad habit of riding brakes, I think it's
> kind of a good idea to just switch it out. It's about $9
> for plenty to do the whole plane and have a lot of spare.
> I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this
> link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606.
>
> http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation/14018/css/14018_178.htm
>
> So that would be my first move now. I should add that to my
> page of things to definitely change or do. I think maybe we
> as a group should try to keep this info out there so that
> nobody uses 5606 at all....none of the fleet. A good friend
> of mine with an RV-10 had a wheel fire as well. Wrecked the
> tire and causes a bit of other damage. Just a no good situation.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
>
>
> On 7/9/2011 10:45 AM, kevino wrote:
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "kevino"<kevino@worldwarehouse.com>
>>
>> 5606. Hadn't thought about that
>>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Main gear fire |
When swapping over to the high temp fluid I recall one has to replace all
the seals is in the system. Is this correct? How much effort is involved
in that change?
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire
On 7/9/2011 2:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
> I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this
> link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606.
Skygeek has some specs on it:
http://www.skygeek.com/royco-782-synthetic-fire-resistant-hydraulic-fluid.
html
then click the "Specifications" tab.
Flash point 218C, 424F
Fire point 251C, 483F
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Main gear fire |
For what it's worth, here is what I have been using in my bird since day
one.
Valvoline DEX/MERC automatic transmission fluid VV324, flash point 202=B0
C / 395=B0 F
grumpy
N184JM
On Jul 9, 2011, at 1:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
> I'm FAR from an expert on the stuff, as you can tell by
> how Kelly remembers the milspec numbers by heart and I
> can't even do that....but here is what Wiki says:
>
>
> Mil-H-5606: Mineral base, flammable, fairly low flashpoint, usable
from -65 =B0F (-54 =B0C) to 275 =B0F (135 =B0C), red color
>
>
> Mil-H-83282: Synthetic hydrocarbon base, higher flashpoint,
self-extinguishing, backward compatible to -5606, red color, rated to
-40 =B0F (-40 =B0C) degrees.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fluid
>
>
> Given that, it's pretty easy to see how brakes can heat up to over
> 275F on a long taxi. So with our castering nosewheel planes that
> kind of invite the bad habit of riding brakes, I think it's
> kind of a good idea to just switch it out. It's about $9
> for plenty to do the whole plane and have a lot of spare.
> I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this
> link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606.
>
> http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation/14018/css/14018_178.htm
>
> So that would be my first move now. I should add that to my
> page of things to definitely change or do. I think maybe we
> as a group should try to keep this info out there so that
> nobody uses 5606 at all....none of the fleet. A good friend
> of mine with an RV-10 had a wheel fire as well. Wrecked the
> tire and causes a bit of other damage. Just a no good situation.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
>
>
>
> On 7/9/2011 10:45 AM, kevino wrote:
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "kevino"<kevino@worldwarehouse.com>
>>
>> 5606. Hadn't thought about that
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Main gear fire |
What is the difference in viscosity of ATF vs mil spec brake fluid? I'm
fairly certain that mil spec brake fluid has some requirements on
viscosity at various temps and other characteristics that make it more
desirable for brake applications. If you need to top up the resevoir at
an airport, you are pretty sure to find 5606, not so much the ATF or
83282. You know that 5606 and 83282 are proven to be compatible, even if
you lower the flash point some. ATF saves you maybe $5 over the high
price 83282?
On 7/9/2011 1:29 PM, Miller John wrote:
> For what it's worth, here is what I have been using in my bird since
> day one.
>
> Valvoline DEX/MERC automatic transmission fluid VV324,flash point
> 202C / 395F
>
> grumpy
>
> N184JM
>
> *
> *
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Main gear fire |
No seal replacement required. Remember 83282 is 100% compatible with
5606. If you want a slightly more durable seal you can go from MS seals
to Viton. Don't know any reason to, other than it probably resists high
temp better while is less flexible at low temps. If your mission is
between ElK Mound and International Falls year round you probably want
the standard 5606 and MS seals.
The calipers are no more than popping the brake cylinder out of the
caliper and changing the O-rings. At the master cylinders, you get to
rebuild them...but they aren't ever going to see the temps the calipers do.
All depends on how much effort you want to do, and what your normal
mission profile is. Those that get OHare and Hartsfield taxi routes
probably want the higher temps, like those of us on the southern fringe
of the country.
Do you want to go into procurement mode, get the fluid, get Viton
O-rings after figuring out exact size needed, and so on, just like the
rest of the build process? The mechanical work on the calipers is
child's play. Draining your system should get you 90 percent of benefit,
vs flushing system and then adding 83282. You get the fun of bleeding
the system either way.
On 7/9/2011 1:23 PM, Robin Marks wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Robin Marks<robin@painttheweb.com>
>
> When swapping over to the high temp fluid I recall one has to replace all
> the seals is in the system. Is this correct? How much effort is involved
> in that change?
>
> Robin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill
> Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 1:07 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Dj Merrill<deej@deej.net>
>
> On 7/9/2011 2:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>> I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this
>> link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606.
> Skygeek has some specs on it:
>
> http://www.skygeek.com/royco-782-synthetic-fire-resistant-hydraulic-fluid.
> html
>
> then click the "Specifications" tab.
>
> Flash point 218C, 424F
> Fire point 251C, 483F
>
> -Dj
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Main gear fire |
Another leak point is the piston seals - they leak when they get too hot. I had
the same problem with brakes that got too hot while taxiing a long way with a
cross wind. The brakes got very hot and leaked which smoked a lot, but no fire
because I used the 83282 fluid. The original seals were bad due to the heat
so I replaced them with viton seals which can stand a higher temperature. I would
have had a fire if I had used the 5606 fluid.....
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 9, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> Brake fires are caused by a failure of the system to contain the brake fluid.
We know that cracking of the hard aluminum will allow fluid to escape. We also
know that when brake pads are allowed to wear way down, the brake puck can
extend out far enough so that fluid can escape around the O-ring. So far, we
haven't heard how the fluid escaped or if "kevino" really knows. Years ago when
the 'plastic' aircraft were all the rage, the failure was caused by the heat
melting the plastic brake lines. Not so, in this case.
>
> So I started to search for some numbers. I found a document here: http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL+SPECS+%28MIL-H%29/MIL-H-83282C_6037/
> which lists minimum flash point at 205 C (405 F) and minimum fire point at 245
C (473 F). Auto ignition is 345 C (653 F). Minimum pour point -55 C (-67 F).
> For 5606 minimum flash point at 82 C (180 F) (minimum fire point is
missing). (Auto ignition is missing). Minimum pour point
-60 C (-76 F).
>
> Different numbers from Tim's but still significantly different than 5606.
>
> So Tim's suggestion to go to 83282 is a good one.
> The 5606 spec was written in 1986 and 83282 in 1994.
>
> Linn
>
>
>
>
> On 7/9/2011 2:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>>
>> I'm FAR from an expert on the stuff, as you can tell by
>> how Kelly remembers the milspec numbers by heart and I
>> can't even do that....but here is what Wiki says:
>>
>>
>> Mil-H-5606: Mineral base, flammable, fairly low flashpoint, usable from -65
F (-54 C) to 275 F (135 C), red color
>>
>>
>> Mil-H-83282: Synthetic hydrocarbon base, higher flashpoint, self-extinguishing,
backward compatible to -5606, red color, rated to -40 F (-40 C) degrees.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fluid
>>
>>
>> Given that, it's pretty easy to see how brakes can heat up to over
>> 275F on a long taxi. So with our castering nosewheel planes that
>> kind of invite the bad habit of riding brakes, I think it's
>> kind of a good idea to just switch it out. It's about $9
>> for plenty to do the whole plane and have a lot of spare.
>> I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this
>> link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606.
>>
>> http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation/14018/css/14018_178.htm
>>
>> So that would be my first move now. I should add that to my
>> page of things to definitely change or do. I think maybe we
>> as a group should try to keep this info out there so that
>> nobody uses 5606 at all....none of the fleet. A good friend
>> of mine with an RV-10 had a wheel fire as well. Wrecked the
>> tire and causes a bit of other damage. Just a no good situation.
>>
>> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/9/2011 10:45 AM, kevino wrote:
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "kevino"<kevino@worldwarehouse.com>
>>>
>>> 5606. Hadn't thought about that
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Main gear fire |
I didn't change my seals in the whole system. I DID go to viton seals in the caliper
itself though. They're cheap.
Tim
On Jul 9, 2011, at 3:23 PM, Robin Marks <robin@PaintTheWeb.com> wrote:
>
> When swapping over to the high temp fluid I recall one has to replace all
> the seals is in the system. Is this correct? How much effort is involved
> in that change?
>
> Robin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill
> Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 1:07 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire
>
>
> On 7/9/2011 2:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>>
>> I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this
>> link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606.
>
> Skygeek has some specs on it:
>
> http://www.skygeek.com/royco-782-synthetic-fire-resistant-hydraulic-fluid.
> html
>
> then click the "Specifications" tab.
>
> Flash point 218C, 424F
> Fire point 251C, 483F
>
> -Dj
>
> --
> Dj Merrill - N1JOV
> Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
> Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
>
>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Main gear fire |
And bleed from the bottom up!!!
Far easier and a whole lot cleaner way to do it.
Just get a qt pump-type oil can with flex tip on it, get some plastic tubing that
fits over the bleed valve, put an overflow tube from the reservoir with a can
to collect it, and pump away.
Can't believe it took me so long to figure that one out........-:)
grumpy
N184JM
On Jul 9, 2011, at 3:50 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> No seal replacement required. Remember 83282 is 100% compatible with 5606. If
you want a slightly more durable seal you can go from MS seals to Viton. Don't
know any reason to, other than it probably resists high temp better while is
less flexible at low temps. If your mission is between ElK Mound and International
Falls year round you probably want the standard 5606 and MS seals.
> The calipers are no more than popping the brake cylinder out of the caliper and
changing the O-rings. At the master cylinders, you get to rebuild them...but
they aren't ever going to see the temps the calipers do.
> All depends on how much effort you want to do, and what your normal mission profile
is. Those that get OHare and Hartsfield taxi routes probably want the higher
temps, like those of us on the southern fringe of the country.
> Do you want to go into procurement mode, get the fluid, get Viton O-rings after
figuring out exact size needed, and so on, just like the rest of the build
process? The mechanical work on the calipers is child's play. Draining your system
should get you 90 percent of benefit, vs flushing system and then adding
83282. You get the fun of bleeding the system either way.
>
>
> On 7/9/2011 1:23 PM, Robin Marks wrote:
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Robin Marks<robin@painttheweb.com>
>>
>> When swapping over to the high temp fluid I recall one has to replace all
>> the seals is in the system. Is this correct? How much effort is involved
>> in that change?
>>
>> Robin
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill
>> Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 1:07 PM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire
>>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Dj Merrill<deej@deej.net>
>>
>> On 7/9/2011 2:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>>> I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this
>>> link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606.
>> Skygeek has some specs on it:
>>
>> http://www.skygeek.com/royco-782-synthetic-fire-resistant-hydraulic-fluid.
>> html
>>
>> then click the "Specifications" tab.
>>
>> Flash point 218C, 424F
>> Fire point 251C, 483F
>>
>> -Dj
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Main gear fire |
Robin
No seal changes are required to go to 83232 fluid. In 1985 when I was a
crew chief in the air force on the c-5 we flushed and changed out all planes
to 83232 hyd fluid with out any seals changed.
They can even be mixed together if in a tight spot but I would not recommend
it.
I will be swapping out our Saratoga in the next oil change before we put the
wheel [ants back on after the annual.
John Cumins
President
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 1:24 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire
When swapping over to the high temp fluid I recall one has to replace all
the seals is in the system. Is this correct? How much effort is involved in
that change?
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire
On 7/9/2011 2:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
> I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this link says
> it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606.
Skygeek has some specs on it:
http://www.skygeek.com/royco-782-synthetic-fire-resistant-hydraulic-fluid.
html
then click the "Specifications" tab.
Flash point 218C, 424F
Fire point 251C, 483F
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar
Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Re: Main gear fire |
I've had mixed results with the pump-can bleeder but we still use one
in the field. I think the problem is that without sufficient flow,
you can still trap bubbles at the top of an arced tube. The fluid
just flows under the bubble.
For the shop, we built a brake bleeder out of a power steering pump.
We turn it with a drill motor. Added a return like John said, a
reservoir and a little plumbing. It works like a champ at about 20-30
psi.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Miller John <gengrumpy@aol.com> wrote:
>
> And bleed from the bottom up!!!
>
> Far easier and a whole lot cleaner way to do it.
>
> Just get a qt pump-type oil can with flex tip on it, get some plastic tubing
that fits over the bleed valve, put an overflow tube from the reservoir with a
can to collect it, and pump away.
>
> Can't believe it took me so long to figure that one out........-:)
>
> grumpy
> N184JM
>
>
> On Jul 9, 2011, at 3:50 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
>>
>> No seal replacement required. Remember 83282 is 100% compatible with 5606. If
you want a slightly more durable seal you can go from MS seals to Viton. Don't
know any reason to, other than it probably resists high temp better while is
less flexible at low temps. If your mission is between ElK Mound and International
Falls year round you probably want the standard 5606 and MS seals.
>> The calipers are no more than popping the brake cylinder out of the caliper
and changing the O-rings. At the master cylinders, you get to rebuild them...but
they aren't ever going to see the temps the calipers do.
>> All depends on how much effort you want to do, and what your normal mission
profile is. Those that get OHare and Hartsfield taxi routes probably want the
higher temps, like those of us on the southern fringe of the country.
>> Do you want to go into procurement mode, get the fluid, get Viton O-rings after
figuring out exact size needed, and so on, just like the rest of the build
process? The mechanical work on the calipers is child's play. Draining your system
should get you 90 percent of benefit, vs flushing system and then adding
83282. You get the fun of bleeding the system either way.
>>
>>
>> On 7/9/2011 1:23 PM, Robin Marks wrote:
>>>
>>> When swapping over to the high temp fluid I recall one has to replace all
>>> the seals is in the system. Is this correct? How much effort is involved
>>> in that change?
>>>
>>> Robin
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 1:07 PM
>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/9/2011 2:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>>>> I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this
>>>> link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606.
>>> Skygeek has some specs on it:
>>>
>>> http://www.skygeek.com/royco-782-synthetic-fire-resistant-hydraulic-fluid.
>>> html
>>>
>>> then click the "Specifications" tab.
>>>
>>> Flash point 218C, 424F
>>> Fire point 251C, 483F
>>>
>>> -Dj
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Bose A20 Headset - NR Power Button - Panel Power |
Dear Listers,
I bought a couple pairs of the new Bose A20's for the RV-8 and they are very nice.
NR is better than the Bose X's and they seem to fit my head a little better
too.
But I quickly discovered that with the A20's you now have to hit the NR Power button
*every time* you start the aircraft even if you have them panel powered.
The older Bose X headsets have a slide switch for the NR power and so you can
just put the slide switch in the On position and not worry about it.
I really didn't like having to turn the NR on all the time and having to remind
my passengers about it, so I came up with a modification that will automatically
turn the NR on when panel power is applied. Its pretty simple, but requires
some special tools. Its completely self-contained inside the Control Module
and works great. The modification is generally only for installations that
are panel-powered, but you could do the modification to a unit that is normally
battery powered with no adverse effect. With the modification, the NR Power
button will work normally in battery power installations.
I created web page on the procedure including step-by-step photos and instructions.
Feedback is welcome.
http://www.matronics.com/BoseA20AutoOnModification/
Matt
-
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"
http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log
http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log
http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel
Status: 170+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap...
Message 25
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| Subject: | Big Sky Air Race |
Sean and I just got back from Three Forks, Montana and had a great time running
in the race up there today. We represented our RV-10 group pretty good, I
think.
There were about 30 planes running in the race and the weather was perfect, the
Sacajawea Hotel there is great with a very good restaurant and they did a good
job organizing everything.
If you are ever in the area it would be a fun place to stop over for a night and
enjoy the quaint town and small town airport.
It was a 126nm course and pretty flat.
Sean's plane is still very new and I was surprised at how close we both were but
we do have the same engine and prop. He is still breaking in the engine and we
have some tweaking to do on the ailerons.
I averaged 204.6 mph and Sean was 203.8.
I don't have all the results but the -10 was right there and sometimes faster
than the -6's, -7's and -8's.
I'll do it again.
Scott Schmidt
Message 26
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I made a 'bottle' out of 2" PVC. Pipe plug in one end to fill with, cap
on the other. Two holes below the pipe plug end. Plastic hose through
one hole down to the bottom where the cap is and the other end goes on
the bleed fitting. My air gun goes into the other hole. Bleeds almost
any brake system quickly!
Linn ..... got hand cramps from pumping that oil can!!!
On 7/9/2011 9:36 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Dave Saylor<dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com>
>
> I've had mixed results with the pump-can bleeder but we still use one
> in the field. I think the problem is that without sufficient flow,
> you can still trap bubbles at the top of an arced tube. The fluid
> just flows under the bubble.
>
> For the shop, we built a brake bleeder out of a power steering pump.
> We turn it with a drill motor. Added a return like John said, a
> reservoir and a little plumbing. It works like a champ at about 20-30
> psi.
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA 95076
> 831-722-9141 Shop
> 831-750-0284 Cell
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Miller John<gengrumpy@aol.com> wrote:
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Miller John<gengrumpy@aol.com>
>>
>> And bleed from the bottom up!!!
>>
>> Far easier and a whole lot cleaner way to do it.
>>
>> Just get a qt pump-type oil can with flex tip on it, get some plastic tubing
that fits over the bleed valve, put an overflow tube from the reservoir with
a can to collect it, and pump away.
>>
>> Can't believe it took me so long to figure that one out........-:)
>>
>> grumpy
>> N184JM
>>
>>
>> On Jul 9, 2011, at 3:50 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>>
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen<kellym@aviating.com>
>>>
>>> No seal replacement required. Remember 83282 is 100% compatible with 5606.
If you want a slightly more durable seal you can go from MS seals to Viton. Don't
know any reason to, other than it probably resists high temp better while
is less flexible at low temps. If your mission is between ElK Mound and International
Falls year round you probably want the standard 5606 and MS seals.
>>> The calipers are no more than popping the brake cylinder out of the caliper
and changing the O-rings. At the master cylinders, you get to rebuild them...but
they aren't ever going to see the temps the calipers do.
>>> All depends on how much effort you want to do, and what your normal mission
profile is. Those that get OHare and Hartsfield taxi routes probably want the
higher temps, like those of us on the southern fringe of the country.
>>> Do you want to go into procurement mode, get the fluid, get Viton O-rings after
figuring out exact size needed, and so on, just like the rest of the build
process? The mechanical work on the calipers is child's play. Draining your
system should get you 90 percent of benefit, vs flushing system and then adding
83282. You get the fun of bleeding the system either way.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/9/2011 1:23 PM, Robin Marks wrote:
>>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Robin Marks<robin@painttheweb.com>
>>>>
>>>> When swapping over to the high temp fluid I recall one has to replace all
>>>> the seals is in the system. Is this correct? How much effort is involved
>>>> in that change?
>>>>
>>>> Robin
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 1:07 PM
>>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire
>>>>
>>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Dj Merrill<deej@deej.net>
>>>>
>>>> On 7/9/2011 2:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>>>>> I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this
>>>>> link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606.
>>>> Skygeek has some specs on it:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.skygeek.com/royco-782-synthetic-fire-resistant-hydraulic-fluid.
>>>> html
>>>>
>>>> then click the "Specifications" tab.
>>>>
>>>> Flash point 218C, 424F
>>>> Fire point 251C, 483F
>>>>
>>>> -Dj
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Big Sky Air Race |
Scott,
What general engine settings are you flying in a race like that. MP (max I
assume), RPM? At what ALT is the race conducted plus fuel burn when racing?
Thanks,
Robin
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Scott Schmidt
*Sent:* Saturday, July 09, 2011 6:51 PM
*To:* RV-10 List
*Subject:* RV10-List: Big Sky Air Race
Sean and I just got back from Three Forks, Montana and had a great time
running in the race up there today. We represented our RV-10 group pretty
good, I think.
There were about 30 planes running in the race and the weather was perfect,
the Sacajawea Hotel there is great with a very good restaurant and they did
a good job organizing everything.
If you are ever in the area it would be a fun place to stop over for a night
and enjoy the quaint town and small town airport.
It was a 126nm course and pretty flat.
Sean's plane is still very new and I was surprised at how close we both were
but we do have the same engine and prop. He is still breaking in the engine
and we have some tweaking to do on the ailerons.
I averaged 204.6 mph and Sean was 203.8.
I don't have all the results but the -10 was right there and sometimes
faster than the -6's, -7's and -8's.
I'll do it again.
Scott Schmidt
* *
* *
* *
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Bose A20 Headset - NR Power Button - Panel Power |
Matt, you rock! That's awesome that you found a way to do
this. I'll definitely be taking at least one of mine
apart and trying this. If it goes well, I'll do 'em all.
It's the single thing I wish they had a dip switch for
that you could enable, and you got the answer. Thanks
for the great write-up.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 7/9/2011 8:38 PM, Matt Dralle wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Matt Dralle<dralle@matronics.com>
>
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> I bought a couple pairs of the new Bose A20's for the RV-8 and they
> are very nice. NR is better than the Bose X's and they seem to fit
> my head a little better too.
>
> But I quickly discovered that with the A20's you now have to hit the
> NR Power button *every time* you start the aircraft even if you have
> them panel powered. The older Bose X headsets have a slide switch for
> the NR power and so you can just put the slide switch in the On
> position and not worry about it.
>
> I really didn't like having to turn the NR on all the time and having
> to remind my passengers about it, so I came up with a modification
> that will automatically turn the NR on when panel power is applied.
> Its pretty simple, but requires some special tools. Its completely
> self-contained inside the Control Module and works great. The
> modification is generally only for installations that are
> panel-powered, but you could do the modification to a unit that is
> normally battery powered with no adverse effect. With the
> modification, the NR Power button will work normally in battery power
> installations.
>
> I created web page on the procedure including step-by-step photos and
> instructions. Feedback is welcome.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/BoseA20AutoOnModification/
>
> Matt
>
>
> - Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen" http://www.mattsrv8.com
> - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log
> http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log
> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel
> Status: 170+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing
> Mishap...
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: External Brake Lines - crack |
Kelly,
I beg to differ but in certified aircraft that I am familiar, (Cessna)
flexible lines are used only where absolutely necessary. The
preference by certified aircraft designers is to use hard lines as
much as practicable if only so that there is no life limit on the
line.
This was driven home to me when I stood on the rear door of a C-17 and
looked up at all the hydraulic plumbing. With all those movable parts
and doors, NOT a single flexible line --not even at the actuators.
Where the line required movement, solid lines with mechanical (banjo
style) flexible fluid couplings were used. I took a picture of it but
I have to find it.
I know some Pipers use a short flexible line between their fuel tanks
and the fuselage fuel coupling. However on the Cardinal that; when in
doubt I ask "what would Cessna do" just as with Vans, flexible lines
are kept to a minimum and used only where absolutely necessary.
In the Cardinal fuel system, there are NO flexible lines. In the
Cardinal electro-hydraulic gear system there are only four short
flexible lines at the nose and main gear actuators. In the
retractable gear Cardinal, the brake line in the main gear is a solid
line. A the top of the RG brake line is a solid mechanical swivel
fitting and only on the lower portion by the wheel is a short easily
replaced flexible line used--remember this is a retractable gear
aircraft.
The point in all this is that hard lines ARE the standard in the
certified and military world in most areas and flexible lines are the
exception. Flexible lines are used only where hard lines are
impractical or expensive such as the movable mechanical (banjo type)
fluid connectors.
Just an alternative $0.02.
William
N237VX
On Jul 9, 2011, at 10:25, Kelly McMullen <apilot2@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Van's would consider adding flex lines about the same time as they
> consider stocking the correct nose wheel. They won't change the nose
> wheel even though the correct one is exactly the same price. Flex
> lines could add over $100 to the cost, especially if you include flex
> lines in place of the crummy nylon lines in the cabin. Somehow we have
> been deluded into wanting durability similar to certified
> aircraft................what a crazy idea.
>
> On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 10:06 PM, E & T Andrews <etandrews@westnet.com.au> wrote:
> Vans should consider including the
>> flexible hose lines in the RV10 kit... has this been raised with Vans
>> before?
>>
>> all the best
>>
>> Evan Andrews
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Re: External Brake Lines - crack |
You will find that the vast majority of Cleveland brakes are connected
via flex lines. Yes, there may be hard lines to somewhere nearby, but
the movement of the gear leg and the movement of the caliper is a flex
line. For example, the brake lines on my Mooney are flexible from the
center of the gear well down the gear leg to the wheel, all flex line.
While most fixed gear Cessnas had hard line down the gear leg, the
connection to the caliper usually was flex line if Cleveland or McCauley
brakes were used, because the caliper moves. With Goodyear brakes there
was hard line all the way, because the caliper was fixed and the disk
moved inside the wheel. Fuel lines are a combination. Most Cessnas (with
wing struts) have flex line between the wing and the fuselage. My
Mooney has flex line between the wing fuel pickup and the hard line to
the selector. Where there is movement or vibration, like in the engine
compartment, flex line is used. Where there are hard lines, they are
made of higher quality tubing on production equipment, not out of soft
line with hand tools. The only place I have seen tubing of similar low
quality is the oil drainback tubes on Lycoming engines.
I wouldn't call a C-17 a certified aircraft, because like most military
only aircraft, it isn't. They have very different missions and different
maintenance practices, not to mention vastly different pricing.
On 7/9/2011 8:56 PM, William Curtis wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: William Curtis<wcurtis@nerv10.com>
>
> Kelly,
>
>
> I beg to differ but in certified aircraft that I am familiar, (Cessna)
> flexible lines are used only where absolutely necessary. The
> preference by certified aircraft designers is to use hard lines as
> much as practicable if only so that there is no life limit on the
> line.
>
> This was driven home to me when I stood on the rear door of a C-17 and
> looked up at all the hydraulic plumbing. With all those movable parts
> and doors, NOT a single flexible line --not even at the actuators.
> Where the line required movement, solid lines with mechanical (banjo
> style) flexible fluid couplings were used. I took a picture of it but
> I have to find it.
>
> I know some Pipers use a short flexible line between their fuel tanks
> and the fuselage fuel coupling. However on the Cardinal that; when in
> doubt I ask "what would Cessna do" just as with Vans, flexible lines
> are kept to a minimum and used only where absolutely necessary.
>
> In the Cardinal fuel system, there are NO flexible lines. In the
> Cardinal electro-hydraulic gear system there are only four short
> flexible lines at the nose and main gear actuators. In the
> retractable gear Cardinal, the brake line in the main gear is a solid
> line. A the top of the RG brake line is a solid mechanical swivel
> fitting and only on the lower portion by the wheel is a short easily
> replaced flexible line used--remember this is a retractable gear
> aircraft.
>
> The point in all this is that hard lines ARE the standard in the
> certified and military world in most areas and flexible lines are the
> exception. Flexible lines are used only where hard lines are
> impractical or expensive such as the movable mechanical (banjo type)
> fluid connectors.
>
> Just an alternative $0.02.
>
> William
> N237VX
>
>
> On Jul 9, 2011, at 10:25, Kelly McMullen<apilot2@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen<apilot2@gmail.com>
>>
>> Van's would consider adding flex lines about the same time as they
>> consider stocking the correct nose wheel. They won't change the nose
>> wheel even though the correct one is exactly the same price. Flex
>> lines could add over $100 to the cost, especially if you include flex
>> lines in place of the crummy nylon lines in the cabin. Somehow we have
>> been deluded into wanting durability similar to certified
>> aircraft................what a crazy idea.
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 10:06 PM, E& T Andrews<etandrews@westnet.com.au> wrote:
>> Vans should consider including the
>>> flexible hose lines in the RV10 kit... has this been raised with Vans
>>> before?
>>>
>>> all the best
>>>
>>> Evan Andrews
>
>
Message 31
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|
| Subject: | Re: External Brake Lines - crack |
I think the decision ..... flex or hard ..... probably boiled down to
weight and cost, and the hard lines win on both counts.
Hard line failures on certified aircraft happen..... but mostly with
many, many hours on them. I have no data, but I'd bet money on the RV
brake line failures on poor flaring technique, or cheap equipment.
Scoring the tubing with the flaring tool clamp is just asking for a
stress fracture. For me it's really difficult to get a flare I'm happy
with. I had to clean up my Rolo-Flair dies because of marks on the tubing.
Linn
On 7/9/2011 11:56 PM, William Curtis wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: William Curtis<wcurtis@nerv10.com>
>
> Kelly,
>
>
> I beg to differ but in certified aircraft that I am familiar, (Cessna)
> flexible lines are used only where absolutely necessary. The
> preference by certified aircraft designers is to use hard lines as
> much as practicable if only so that there is no life limit on the
> line.
>
> This was driven home to me when I stood on the rear door of a C-17 and
> looked up at all the hydraulic plumbing. With all those movable parts
> and doors, NOT a single flexible line --not even at the actuators.
> Where the line required movement, solid lines with mechanical (banjo
> style) flexible fluid couplings were used. I took a picture of it but
> I have to find it.
>
> I know some Pipers use a short flexible line between their fuel tanks
> and the fuselage fuel coupling. However on the Cardinal that; when in
> doubt I ask "what would Cessna do" just as with Vans, flexible lines
> are kept to a minimum and used only where absolutely necessary.
>
> In the Cardinal fuel system, there are NO flexible lines. In the
> Cardinal electro-hydraulic gear system there are only four short
> flexible lines at the nose and main gear actuators. In the
> retractable gear Cardinal, the brake line in the main gear is a solid
> line. A the top of the RG brake line is a solid mechanical swivel
> fitting and only on the lower portion by the wheel is a short easily
> replaced flexible line used--remember this is a retractable gear
> aircraft.
>
> The point in all this is that hard lines ARE the standard in the
> certified and military world in most areas and flexible lines are the
> exception. Flexible lines are used only where hard lines are
> impractical or expensive such as the movable mechanical (banjo type)
> fluid connectors.
>
> Just an alternative $0.02.
>
> William
> N237VX
>
>
> On Jul 9, 2011, at 10:25, Kelly McMullen<apilot2@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen<apilot2@gmail.com>
>>
>> Van's would consider adding flex lines about the same time as they
>> consider stocking the correct nose wheel. They won't change the nose
>> wheel even though the correct one is exactly the same price. Flex
>> lines could add over $100 to the cost, especially if you include flex
>> lines in place of the crummy nylon lines in the cabin. Somehow we have
>> been deluded into wanting durability similar to certified
>> aircraft................what a crazy idea.
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 10:06 PM, E& T Andrews<etandrews@westnet.com.au> wrote:
>> Vans should consider including the
>>> flexible hose lines in the RV10 kit... has this been raised with Vans
>>> before?
>>>
>>> all the best
>>>
>>> Evan Andrews
>
>
Message 32
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|
| Subject: | Re: External Brake Lines - crack |
Kelly,
I think we are all in agreement that the 3003 versa tube is crap and 5052
would be much better. Also, when I said NO flexible lines are used in the
Cardinal fuel system, I meant from the firewall back. Naturally, firewall
forward is one place where flexible lines are standard.
William
-----------
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 12:32 AM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>wrote:
>
> I think the decision ..... flex or hard ..... probably boiled down to
> weight and cost, and the hard lines win on both counts.
> Hard line failures on certified aircraft happen..... but mostly with many,
> many hours on them. I have no data, but I'd bet money on the RV brake line
> failures on poor flaring technique, or cheap equipment. Scoring the tubing
> with the flaring tool clamp is just asking for a stress fracture. For me
> it's really difficult to get a flare I'm happy with. I had to clean up my
> Rolo-Flair dies because of marks on the tubing.
> Linn
>
>
> On 7/9/2011 11:56 PM, William Curtis wrote:
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: William Curtis<wcurtis@nerv10.com>
>>
>> Kelly,
>>
>>
>> I beg to differ but in certified aircraft that I am familiar, (Cessna)
>> flexible lines are used only where absolutely necessary. The
>> preference by certified aircraft designers is to use hard lines as
>> much as practicable if only so that there is no life limit on the
>> line.
>>
>> This was driven home to me when I stood on the rear door of a C-17 and
>> looked up at all the hydraulic plumbing. With all those movable parts
>> and doors, NOT a single flexible line --not even at the actuators.
>> Where the line required movement, solid lines with mechanical (banjo
>> style) flexible fluid couplings were used. I took a picture of it but
>> I have to find it.
>>
>> I know some Pipers use a short flexible line between their fuel tanks
>> and the fuselage fuel coupling. However on the Cardinal that; when in
>> doubt I ask "what would Cessna do" just as with Vans, flexible lines
>> are kept to a minimum and used only where absolutely necessary.
>>
>> In the Cardinal fuel system, there are NO flexible lines. In the
>> Cardinal electro-hydraulic gear system there are only four short
>> flexible lines at the nose and main gear actuators. In the
>> retractable gear Cardinal, the brake line in the main gear is a solid
>> line. A the top of the RG brake line is a solid mechanical swivel
>> fitting and only on the lower portion by the wheel is a short easily
>> replaced flexible line used--remember this is a retractable gear
>> aircraft.
>>
>> The point in all this is that hard lines ARE the standard in the
>> certified and military world in most areas and flexible lines are the
>> exception. Flexible lines are used only where hard lines are
>> impractical or expensive such as the movable mechanical (banjo type)
>> fluid connectors.
>>
>> Just an alternative $0.02.
>>
>> William
>> N237VX
>>
>>
>> On Jul 9, 2011, at 10:25, Kelly McMullen<apilot2@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen<apilot2@gmail.com>
>>>
>>> Van's would consider adding flex lines about the same time as they
>>> consider stocking the correct nose wheel. They won't change the nose
>>> wheel even though the correct one is exactly the same price. Flex
>>> lines could add over $100 to the cost, especially if you include flex
>>> lines in place of the crummy nylon lines in the cabin. Somehow we have
>>> been deluded into wanting durability similar to certified
>>> aircraft................what a crazy idea.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 10:06 PM, E& T Andrews<etandrews@westnet.com.**
>>> au <etandrews@westnet.com.au>> wrote:
>>> Vans should consider including the
>>>
>>>> flexible hose lines in the RV10 kit... has this been raised with Vans
>>>> before?
>>>>
>>>> all the best
>>>>
>>>> Evan Andrews
>>>>
>>>
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | Re: External Brake Lines - crack |
Understand. The Cardinal is a bit unique among Cessnas, with its
construction and design. Many planes use short flex lines between wing
tanks and hard lines in fuselage, for easy disconnect and absorbing
wing flex. IIRC those swivel joints for the RG are a bit of a
maintenance pain, although they don't need frequent attention. The
brake flex lines on my Mooney are a piece of cake. Every 10-15 years
when they get hard, just remove, make new lines and reinstall. They
get significant flex every time the gear goes up or down.
Just comes down to using good quality material with design that can
give with flex without work hardening. Obviously builder's choice of
what they want to use.
On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 9:50 PM, William Curtis <wwc4@njit.edu> wrote:
> Kelly,
>
> I think we are all in agreement that the 3003 versa tube is crap and 5052
> would be much better. Also, when I said NO flexible lines are used in the
> Cardinal fuel system, I meant from the firewall back. Naturally, firewall
> forward is one place where flexible lines are standard.
>
> William
> -----------
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Re: Big Sky Air Race |
The airport is at 4080 ft.
Max power was 25 inches and I ran between 2500 and 2600 RPM.
Fuel flow was 19-20 gph and I flew 500-1000 ft agl.
-Scott
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 9, 2011, at 9:06 PM, Robin Marks <robin@painttheweb.com> wrote:
> Scott,
>
> What general engine settings are you flying in a race like that. MP (max I
assume), RPM? At what ALT is the race conducted plus fuel burn when racing?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Robin
>
>
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@
matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
> Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 6:51 PM
> To: RV-10 List
> Subject: RV10-List: Big Sky Air Race
>
>
>
> Sean and I just got back from Three Forks, Montana and had a great time ru
nning in the race up there today. We represented our RV-10 group pretty goo
d, I think.
>
> There were about 30 planes running in the race and the weather was perfect
, the Sacajawea Hotel there is great with a very good restaurant and they di
d a good job organizing everything.
>
> If you are ever in the area it would be a fun place to stop over for a nig
ht and enjoy the quaint town and small town airport.
>
> It was a 126nm course and pretty flat.
>
>
>
> Sean's plane is still very new and I was surprised at how close we both we
re but we do have the same engine and prop. He is still breaking in the eng
ine and we have some tweaking to do on the ailerons.
>
> I averaged 204.6 mph and Sean was 203.8.
>
> I don't have all the results but the -10 was right there and sometimes fas
ter than the -6's, -7's and -8's.
>
> I'll do it again.
>
>
> Scott Schmidt
>
>
>
>
> ====
> RV10-List Email Forum -
> Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> w.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV
1
> ======================
> m">http://forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ======================
>
>
>
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