Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:07 AM - TICO (cjpilot710@aol.com)
2. 02:43 PM - Re: Air Speed Indicator Range Markings (Walt Lannon)
3. 03:51 PM - Re: Air Speed Indicator Range Markings tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, SUBJECT_IS_LIST,SUBJ_ENDS_IN_SPACE,USER_AGENT_OE, USER_IN_WHITELI (Ernie)
4. 04:04 PM - Re: Air Speed Indicator Range Markings tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, SUBJECT_IS_LIST,SUBJ_ENDS_IN_SPACE,USER_AGENT_OE, USER_IN_WHITELI (Ernie)
5. 05:40 PM - Re: Airshow and fly-in attendance fees (Alan Cockrell)
6. 05:44 PM - Re: Flight Instruction in an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft (Brian Lloyd)
7. 05:54 PM - Re: air show (Brian Lloyd)
8. 06:24 PM - Re: Air Speed Indicator Range Markings (Brian Lloyd)
9. 08:05 PM - Re: Airshow and fly-in attendance fees (cjpilot710@aol.com)
Message 1
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--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
Florida flyiers,
The TICO warbird airshow is this Friday (7), Saturday (8), and Sunday( 9).
I should have a replacement mag (new) by Tuesday. Hopefully will be flying
Wednesday & Thursday.
I plan to fly to and from each day rather than over night there.
Maybe those who want to do the same, can contact me off list, and we can
coordinate our gaggle.
Note, I normally leave just after sunup so that I may have leisure breakfast
at the on field restaurant.
If you wish to fly in the show, there are several things you need.
1.A copy of your tickets, phycial, and insurance.
2. I believe you must be members of VAC (NOT SURE) which you can join when
you get there.($75.00/yr.)
3. If you are a member and receive gas / oil (they don't provide cars) you
must have a commercial pilot ticket with at least a CURRENT 2ND class
physical.
4. If you have a parachute in your airplane, it too must be current. You
can't use it as a "cushion".
Note: MCO FSDO is always on hand at this show and does check paper work.
5. MCO FSDO seem to 'like it' if you have all you aircraft log books,
although I've never seen them make a federal case out them not being there.
6. TICO (TIX) is very close to Cape Canaveral and very close to the shuttle
runway. Be very mindful of the restricted area around and to the east of TIX
when arriving there. I understand that requested low approaches down the
shuttle runway are no longer permitted and a waste of time to ask.
7. The contact number at VAC is 321-268-1941. They should be able to fax you
a pilot registration form.
Let hope the weather is good (AND my mag get here)
Jim
386-467-3313
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Air Speed Indicator Range Markings |
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <lannon@look.ca>
Hi Dennis;
You asked some interesting questions a few days ago re limiting airspeeds
for the CJ but no one seems to want to
get into this. I can understand why as there is no truly definitive
published information available.
But what the hell, for what it's worth, here are my opinions;
References;
1. Technical Specifications Manual
Pg. 1 - 3 for the CJ6 (260HP)
Pg. 190, 191 for the CJ6A (285HP)
2. Pilots Flight Manual
VNE;
Ref. 1 shows 350km (190)kts for the CJ6 and 370km (200kts) for the CJ6A. I
have absolutely no idea why the VNE should change. Perhaps if there were a
large increase in power and/or weight one might expect a DECREASE in VNE.
In my ignorance here I use a VNE of 200kts.
Max. Structural Cruise;
No information in either reference to this or Manouvering speed. All we have
is a table of max. level flight speeds for each model at various altitudes.
Since these show a small increase for the CJ6A one might assume (but
probably should not given the VNE confusion) that these are max. obtainable
rather than max. limit speeds. In any case if we use the median altitudes of
1000 and 2000 M (3300 and 6600 Ft.) we arrive at 150 to 160kts. for the top
of the green.
I use 160kts but advise my customers that this is NOT a Manouver or gust
limit. Of course all pilots know that anyhow, don't they?
The yellow arc then would be from 160 to 200 kts.
Gear and Flap limits
Here we should be able to generate some controversy.
Again there is no specific information given but reference 2, the Pilots
manual clearly limits all circuit procedures to 170km or 92kts. One would
then have to assume this is the gear and flap limit. Of course we don't like
that.
The numbers you probably have are Gear - 130kts and Flap 108kts. I don't
know where these came from but suspect they are copied from the Military
limits for the T6 which are 150 and 125 MPH (130.4 and 108.6
kts.)respectively. I believe they are too high for the CJ.
So I did an evaluation of the flap and gear structures and compared them to
the T6/Harvard, the T34 and some less representative aircraft.
The T6 and Harvard gear are extremely stout with only a small upper fairing.
The CJ gear is also stout but with the trailing link arrangement and large
lower door would be more subject to high speed damage than the T6.
The T34 gear is probably a closer comparison but with it's very large doors
may be a little more subject to damage than the CJ. The T34 limit is 110kts.
I therefor selected 110kts for the CJ gear speed. I think 120kts would be
acceptable but want to err on the safe side and keep it compatible with the
flap limit -NEXT.
The T6 and Harvard military flap limits are 125mph and 109kts respectively
(the same!) However the CIVIL limit for the T6 (FAA Aircraft Specification
A-2-575) is 111mph or 97kts. The Harvard civil type certificate in Canada
uses the military limit.
Over the years I have replaced two bent flaps on customers T6/Harvard's. The
structure is similar to the CJ flap but the operating mechanism transmits
the extension load evenly through a number of push rods.
The CJ flap extension load is confined to a single point which would resurt
in a signifigant increase in bending loads with increasing airspeed.
The T34 has a high flap speed of 110kts (same as the gear) but the structure
is quite different than the T6 and the CJ. It is a tracked Fowler type type
which is a fully closed and deep strucure unlike a split type flap. The
loads are well distributed from the tracks. There really is no comparison
here.
Again trying to stay on the safe side I recommend a flap limit speed of 90
kts.
Operationally 110 gear and 90 flap work just fine.
Cheers
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "General Equipment Company" <general@generalequip.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Air Speed Indicator Range Markings
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "General Equipment Company"
<general@generalequip.com>
>
> I am in the process of installing two new air speed indicators in my CJ.
Even with all the written data and postings in front of me, I have not been
able to determine if a yellow (caution) speed range was ever established.
White (flap) range, yes. Max gear extension speed, yes. Green (operational),
yes. Yellow, no. Red (Never exceed), yes. Does anyone have any further
information? Thanks.
>
> Dennis Von Ruden
> general@generalequip.com
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Air Speed Indicator Range Markings |
tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,
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--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Please check the attached PDF doc.
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walt Lannon" <lannon@look.ca>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air Speed Indicator Range Markings
tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,
SUBJECT_IS_LIST,SUBJ_ENDS_IN_SPACE,USER_AGENT_OE, USER_IN_WHITELIST
version=2.43
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <lannon@look.ca>
>
> Hi Dennis;
>
> You asked some interesting questions a few days ago re limiting airspeeds
> for the CJ but no one seems to want to
> get into this. I can understand why as there is no truly definitive
> published information available.
> But what the hell, for what it's worth, here are my opinions;
> References;
> 1. Technical Specifications Manual
> Pg. 1 - 3 for the CJ6 (260HP)
> Pg. 190, 191 for the CJ6A (285HP)
> 2. Pilots Flight Manual
>
> VNE;
> Ref. 1 shows 350km (190)kts for the CJ6 and 370km (200kts) for the CJ6A.
I
> have absolutely no idea why the VNE should change. Perhaps if there were a
> large increase in power and/or weight one might expect a DECREASE in VNE.
> In my ignorance here I use a VNE of 200kts.
>
> Max. Structural Cruise;
> No information in either reference to this or Manouvering speed. All we
have
> is a table of max. level flight speeds for each model at various
altitudes.
> Since these show a small increase for the CJ6A one might assume (but
> probably should not given the VNE confusion) that these are max.
obtainable
> rather than max. limit speeds. In any case if we use the median altitudes
of
> 1000 and 2000 M (3300 and 6600 Ft.) we arrive at 150 to 160kts. for the
top
> of the green.
> I use 160kts but advise my customers that this is NOT a Manouver or gust
> limit. Of course all pilots know that anyhow, don't they?
> The yellow arc then would be from 160 to 200 kts.
>
> Gear and Flap limits
> Here we should be able to generate some controversy.
> Again there is no specific information given but reference 2, the Pilots
> manual clearly limits all circuit procedures to 170km or 92kts. One would
> then have to assume this is the gear and flap limit. Of course we don't
like
> that.
>
> The numbers you probably have are Gear - 130kts and Flap 108kts. I don't
> know where these came from but suspect they are copied from the Military
> limits for the T6 which are 150 and 125 MPH (130.4 and 108.6
> kts.)respectively. I believe they are too high for the CJ.
> So I did an evaluation of the flap and gear structures and compared them
to
> the T6/Harvard, the T34 and some less representative aircraft.
> The T6 and Harvard gear are extremely stout with only a small upper
fairing.
> The CJ gear is also stout but with the trailing link arrangement and large
> lower door would be more subject to high speed damage than the T6.
> The T34 gear is probably a closer comparison but with it's very large
doors
> may be a little more subject to damage than the CJ. The T34 limit is
110kts.
> I therefor selected 110kts for the CJ gear speed. I think 120kts would be
> acceptable but want to err on the safe side and keep it compatible with
the
> flap limit -NEXT.
>
> The T6 and Harvard military flap limits are 125mph and 109kts respectively
> (the same!) However the CIVIL limit for the T6 (FAA Aircraft Specification
> A-2-575) is 111mph or 97kts. The Harvard civil type certificate in Canada
> uses the military limit.
> Over the years I have replaced two bent flaps on customers T6/Harvard's.
The
> structure is similar to the CJ flap but the operating mechanism transmits
> the extension load evenly through a number of push rods.
> The CJ flap extension load is confined to a single point which would
resurt
> in a signifigant increase in bending loads with increasing airspeed.
> The T34 has a high flap speed of 110kts (same as the gear) but the
structure
> is quite different than the T6 and the CJ. It is a tracked Fowler type
type
> which is a fully closed and deep strucure unlike a split type flap. The
> loads are well distributed from the tracks. There really is no comparison
> here.
> Again trying to stay on the safe side I recommend a flap limit speed of 90
> kts.
>
> Operationally 110 gear and 90 flap work just fine.
>
> Cheers
> Walt
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "General Equipment Company" <general@generalequip.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Yak-List: Air Speed Indicator Range Markings
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "General Equipment Company"
> <general@generalequip.com>
> >
> > I am in the process of installing two new air speed indicators in my CJ.
> Even with all the written data and postings in front of me, I have not
been
> able to determine if a yellow (caution) speed range was ever established.
> White (flap) range, yes. Max gear extension speed, yes. Green
(operational),
> yes. Yellow, no. Red (Never exceed), yes. Does anyone have any further
> information? Thanks.
> >
> > Dennis Von Ruden
> > general@generalequip.com
> >
> >
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Air Speed Indicator Range Markings |
tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,
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USER_IN_WHITELI
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Sorry,
Just realized that I cant attach docs.
I have a non-chinese looking checklist which states the following.
Vs0 59 kts 108kph
Vs1 61 kts 112kph
Vlo 130 kts 240kph
Va 149 kts 275kph
I dont know where this info came from, it looks as if it was made in the US
The Nanchang Pilot notes do not specify Va but do specify Vlo as 92kts
170kph which is as Walt said.
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air Speed Indicator Range Markings
tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,
SUBJECT_IS_LIST,SUBJ_ENDS_IN_SPACE,USER_AGENT_OE, USER_IN_WHITELI
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
>
> Please check the attached PDF doc.
>
> Ernie
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Walt Lannon" <lannon@look.ca>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air Speed Indicator Range Markings
> tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,
> SUBJECT_IS_LIST,SUBJ_ENDS_IN_SPACE,USER_AGENT_OE, USER_IN_WHITELIST
> version=2.43
>
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Walt Lannon" <lannon@look.ca>
> >
> > Hi Dennis;
> >
> > You asked some interesting questions a few days ago re limiting
airspeeds
> > for the CJ but no one seems to want to
> > get into this. I can understand why as there is no truly definitive
> > published information available.
> > But what the hell, for what it's worth, here are my opinions;
> > References;
> > 1. Technical Specifications Manual
> > Pg. 1 - 3 for the CJ6 (260HP)
> > Pg. 190, 191 for the CJ6A (285HP)
> > 2. Pilots Flight Manual
> >
> > VNE;
> > Ref. 1 shows 350km (190)kts for the CJ6 and 370km (200kts) for the
CJ6A.
> I
> > have absolutely no idea why the VNE should change. Perhaps if there were
a
> > large increase in power and/or weight one might expect a DECREASE in
VNE.
> > In my ignorance here I use a VNE of 200kts.
> >
> > Max. Structural Cruise;
> > No information in either reference to this or Manouvering speed. All we
> have
> > is a table of max. level flight speeds for each model at various
> altitudes.
> > Since these show a small increase for the CJ6A one might assume (but
> > probably should not given the VNE confusion) that these are max.
> obtainable
> > rather than max. limit speeds. In any case if we use the median
altitudes
> of
> > 1000 and 2000 M (3300 and 6600 Ft.) we arrive at 150 to 160kts. for the
> top
> > of the green.
> > I use 160kts but advise my customers that this is NOT a Manouver or gust
> > limit. Of course all pilots know that anyhow, don't they?
> > The yellow arc then would be from 160 to 200 kts.
> >
> > Gear and Flap limits
> > Here we should be able to generate some controversy.
> > Again there is no specific information given but reference 2, the Pilots
> > manual clearly limits all circuit procedures to 170km or 92kts. One
would
> > then have to assume this is the gear and flap limit. Of course we don't
> like
> > that.
> >
> > The numbers you probably have are Gear - 130kts and Flap 108kts. I don't
> > know where these came from but suspect they are copied from the Military
> > limits for the T6 which are 150 and 125 MPH (130.4 and 108.6
> > kts.)respectively. I believe they are too high for the CJ.
> > So I did an evaluation of the flap and gear structures and compared them
> to
> > the T6/Harvard, the T34 and some less representative aircraft.
> > The T6 and Harvard gear are extremely stout with only a small upper
> fairing.
> > The CJ gear is also stout but with the trailing link arrangement and
large
> > lower door would be more subject to high speed damage than the T6.
> > The T34 gear is probably a closer comparison but with it's very large
> doors
> > may be a little more subject to damage than the CJ. The T34 limit is
> 110kts.
> > I therefor selected 110kts for the CJ gear speed. I think 120kts would
be
> > acceptable but want to err on the safe side and keep it compatible with
> the
> > flap limit -NEXT.
> >
> > The T6 and Harvard military flap limits are 125mph and 109kts
respectively
> > (the same!) However the CIVIL limit for the T6 (FAA Aircraft
Specification
> > A-2-575) is 111mph or 97kts. The Harvard civil type certificate in
Canada
> > uses the military limit.
> > Over the years I have replaced two bent flaps on customers T6/Harvard's.
> The
> > structure is similar to the CJ flap but the operating mechanism
transmits
> > the extension load evenly through a number of push rods.
> > The CJ flap extension load is confined to a single point which would
> resurt
> > in a signifigant increase in bending loads with increasing airspeed.
> > The T34 has a high flap speed of 110kts (same as the gear) but the
> structure
> > is quite different than the T6 and the CJ. It is a tracked Fowler type
> type
> > which is a fully closed and deep strucure unlike a split type flap. The
> > loads are well distributed from the tracks. There really is no
comparison
> > here.
> > Again trying to stay on the safe side I recommend a flap limit speed of
90
> > kts.
> >
> > Operationally 110 gear and 90 flap work just fine.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Walt
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "General Equipment Company" <general@generalequip.com>
> > To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Yak-List: Air Speed Indicator Range Markings
> >
> >
> > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "General Equipment Company"
> > <general@generalequip.com>
> > >
> > > I am in the process of installing two new air speed indicators in my
CJ.
> > Even with all the written data and postings in front of me, I have not
> been
> > able to determine if a yellow (caution) speed range was ever
established.
> > White (flap) range, yes. Max gear extension speed, yes. Green
> (operational),
> > yes. Yellow, no. Red (Never exceed), yes. Does anyone have any further
> > information? Thanks.
> > >
> > > Dennis Von Ruden
> > > general@generalequip.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Airshow and fly-in attendance fees |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Alan Cockrell <YakDriver@comcast.net>
In light of this talk of air show compenstion/perks, y'all might find it
interesting to know what the Huntsville International (Alabama) airshow is
requiring of us at their Blue Angel show of March 29-30. The several
Yak/CJ/L-Bird owners around this area were invited to put our birds on
static display. All we have to do is fly them over the day before the show,
allow them to be "impounded," and pick them up after the last day of the
show. If we want to see the show and watch over our birds we must drive to
the airport with the public and pay the parking fees. Needless to say, none
of us are going.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Yak-List Digest Server" <yak-list-digest@matronics.com>
Subject: Yak-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 03/01/03
> *
>
> ==================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> ==================================================
>
> Today's complete Yak-List Digest can be also be found in either
> of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
> formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked
> Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII
> version of the Yak-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic
> text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list/Digest.Yak-List.2003-03-01.html
>
> Text Version:
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list/Digest.Yak-List.2003-03-01.txt
>
>
> ================================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ================================================
>
>
> Yak-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Sat 03/01/03: 6
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 05:12 AM - mag (cjpilot710@aol.com)
> 2. 06:51 AM - Re: air show compensation (Ron Davis)
> 3. 07:06 AM - Re: Air Show Money (Ron Davis)
> 4. 07:22 AM - Re: air show (Ron Davis)
> 5. 07:31 AM - Airshow and fly-in attendance fees (John Alber)
> 6. 09:13 AM - Re: Air Show Money (Rick Basiliere)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:12:46 AM PST US
> From: cjpilot710@aol.com
> Subject: Yak-List: mag
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
>
> Gang,
>
> I need a M-9 Russian magneto. I'd prefer to purchase a very good used
one.
> Of course I need this ASAP. Please contact me off list or at
386-467-3313.
> My fax # is 386-467-3193.
>
> Jim
>
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
> deserve neither liberty nor safety"
> Benjamin Franklin 1759
> "With my shield, or on it"
> Trojan Warriors BC
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:51:43 AM PST US
> From: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List:air show compensation
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
>
> There was never, that I know of, any such regulation. You can not carry
> persons or property for hire, but that is different than charging people
to
> watch you fly. Virtually all airshow acts are in experimental planes.
>
>
> >From: "Mike Plecenik" <nanchang@zipnet.us>
> >Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
> >To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Re: Yak-List:air show compensation
> >Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:07:39 -0600
> >
> >--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mike Plecenik" <nanchang@zipnet.us>
> >
> >Whatever happened to the FAA reg. about Experimental aircraft not being
> >allowed to be used in any commercial endeavor nor allowed compensation
for
> >use of that aircraft.? Has it been superceded? I need to know what you
> >know.
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:06:21 AM PST US
> From: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air Show Money
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
>
> The reg doesn't say anything about "needing" a chute. If you sit on it
> ("have it available for use") it has to be a TSO'd chute, have a card, and
> be in date.
>
>
> 91.307 Parachutes and parachuting.
>
> (a) No pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a parachute that is available
for
> emergency use to be carried in that aircraft unless it is an approved type
> and --
>
> (1) If a chair type (canopy in back), it has been packed by a certificated
> and appropriately rated parachute rigger within the preceding 120 days; or
>
> (2) If any other type, it has been packed by a certificated and
> appropriately rated parachute rigger --
>
> (i) Within the preceding 120 days...
>
>
> >From: cpayne@mc.net
> >Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
> >To: yak-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Yak-List: Air Show Money
> >Date: Wed Feb 26 10:39:03 2003
> >
> >--> Yak-List message posted by: cpayne@mc.net
> >
> >I have noticed an airshow trend in the last few years in the area where I
> >live: cash compensation for ancillary players, as in
> >those not covered under contract for a performance. Other trend consists
of
> >all fuel being billed to a single account, lunch
> >and dinner tickets/buttons handed out to key volunteers, performers, and
> >guests rather than being logged on a "list" for
> >the FAA.
> >
> >Another trend, and a negative one, is the local FSDO maintenance guys wan
t
> >all kinds of paperwork on the aircraft,
> >including details that have no relevance for a static display. One of our
> >'listers got busted for his parachute being out
> >of pack date....even though he had no actual need for a 'chute, as he was
> >NOT flying formation or aerobatics. More
> >than one pilot has walked away from briefings when this stuff started.
> >
> >My compensation? Don't ask and I won't tell.
> >
> >Craig Payne
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:22:24 AM PST US
> From: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List:air show
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
>
> This is very interesting. Does that meanthat in the FAA's eyes the
aircraft
> in a museum that charges admission have to have airworthiness
certificates,
> annual inspections, and be owned by commercial/ATP with a current medical?
>
>
> >From: AirshowPilot1@aol.com
> >Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
> >To: yak-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: Yak-List:air show
> >Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:34:07 -0500
> >
> >--> Yak-List message posted by: AirshowPilot1@aol.com
> >
> >As a professional air show performer (and attorney licensed in Georgia
and
> >Ohio)in a YAK-55M, it is perfectly fine to charge for the presence of
your
> >aircraft - static or performance based provided you have a commercial
> >license. Your aircraft limitations should only proscribe passenger,
> >freight carrying, banner towing etc - there is an "exception" for
carrying
> >media in experimental aircraft but even there, the gas must be paid for
out
> >of your own pocket. If you charge for static display you are in fact
> >engaging in a commercial activity "for compensation or hire" and this
> >extends to ereceiving a free room. I worked on this issue several years
> >ago with the air show industry and the FAA, I have represented several
> >pilots caught in this jam with the FAA. Will you get caught - maybe -
but
> >the real question should be is this a prohibited practice - not will I
get
> >caught at it. If you do not hold a commercial (or ATP) with appropriate
> >medical (Class II to exercise the privile!
> >ges of a commercial pilot - class I for ATP privileges) you in fact run
the
> >risk of certificate action by the FAA if you accept compensation (free
gas,
> >hotel room and certainly money) for displaying your aircraft. Having
been
> >inspected by hundreds of different FAA inspectors at air show sites
> >throughout the U.S. I can also tell you that there are certain inspectors
> >who walk around the static display area and casually ask to see your
> >license - if it said private - I have watched them go to the show
producer
> >and find out what the financial arrangements were for the static. What
> >happened to the pilts I do not know but they were not there the next year
> >on display . . . .
> >
> >Walt Addison Linscott
> >Paramount Aerobatics
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:31:28 AM PST US
> From: John Alber <john@johnalber.com>
> Subject: Yak-List: Airshow and fly-in attendance fees
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: John Alber <john@johnalber.com>
>
>
> I want to second Ron's point and add some reality to all this talk of
attendance
> fees for static displays of Yaks and CJs. We run an event much like Ron's,
the
> AIRstravaganza at GRE in Illinois, the first weekend in October every
year.
> We get very little funding and don't charge a gate admission. Our aim is
to promote
> aviation, not make money. If we break even, we are THRILLED.
>
> So talk of $500 attendance fees is, at least in our context, not
realistic. We
> can afford to pay fees to some marquis aircraft--for example, last year we
had
> a passenger carrying DC-3 from the Prairie Aviation Museum (we try to
offer the
> public as many ways to get in the air as possible). We paid for that, and
for
> a passenger-carrying Beech 18 and for some others. We also offer some
breaks
> on fuel and I've been known to spring for lunch myself. But that's about
it.
>
> I know something of the finances of some bigger airshows around here as
well, and
> they too just don't have the money to pay appearance fees for Yaks, CJs,
L-19s,
> L-4s, and all the other wonderful warbirds that add hugely to such events.
> It's just not possible.
>
> I'm sure the people talking about bigger fees have some factual basis for
their
> assertions, but based on my experience, most events in our area are too
thinly
> capitalized to offer much, if anything.
>
> By the way, if you care to migrate to GRE the first weekend in October,
we'd love
> to have you. It's a fun event and you can fly in some very interesting
aircraft
> and see lots of cool cars (we also have a car show). We'll lighten the
fuel
> cost and I'll pick up lunch and dinner for YPA members.
>
> John Alber
>
> Time: 11:05:42 PM PST US
> From: jackron@att.net
> Subject: Re: Yak-List:air show compensation
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: jackron@att.net
>
> Mike,
>
> Again, you paint with too wide a brush. I admit I don't know how they
> do it in
>
> Ohio, or anywhere else for that matter, but I can tell you that not all
> airshows are big business. Every two years we put on an airshow here
> in
> Juneau. There are about 15 of us that work our tails off, without any
> compansation. We have raffles, accept donations from local hotels,
> rental
> cars, etc. We don't pay anybody anything. We give them a room, a car
> and some
>
> gas. We had over 100 airplanes at our last show including the
> Snowbirds. We
> had t-28s, T-6s, A military Goose, a AN-2, my CJ, etc, etc. Everybody
> had a
> great time. It's not always about money. There are some great prople
> in the
> warbird community, and the aviation community as a whole. Most of them
> are
> generous to a fault, thank goodness!!
>
> Ron Swanson
>
> --
>
>
> John Alber
> john@johnalber.com
> Home 618-675-3553
> Work 314-259-2144
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:13:12 AM PST US
> From: "Rick Basiliere" <discrab@earthlink.net>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Air Show Money
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Rick Basiliere" <discrab@earthlink.net>
>
> Folks, Read on to 91.307(c) the IAC has always interpreted this to mean
> that if you are solo and you wish to do aerobatics -you- the "crew"
doesn't
> even need to wear or have a 'chute. Not smart, for sure, but legal. Gosh
> even when I x/c I'm strapped in it. Respectfully, Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ron Davis
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air Show Money
>
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ron Davis" <l39parts@hotmail.com>
>
> The reg doesn't say anything about "needing" a chute. If you sit on it
> ("have it available for use") it has to be a TSO'd chute, have a card, and
> be in date.
>
>
> 91.307 Parachutes and parachuting.
>
> (a) No pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a parachute that is available
for
> emergency use to be carried in that aircraft unless it is an approved type
> and --
>
> (1) If a chair type (canopy in back), it has been packed by a certificated
> and appropriately rated parachute rigger within the preceding 120 days; or
>
> (2) If any other type, it has been packed by a certificated and
> appropriately rated parachute rigger --
>
> (i) Within the preceding 120 days...
>
>
> >From: cpayne@mc.net
> >Reply-To: yak-list@matronics.com
> >To: yak-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Yak-List: Air Show Money
> >Date: Wed Feb 26 10:39:03 2003
> >
> >--> Yak-List message posted by: cpayne@mc.net
> >
> >I have noticed an airshow trend in the last few years in the area where I
> >live: cash compensation for ancillary players, as in
> >those not covered under contract for a performance. Other trend consists
of
> >all fuel being billed to a single account, lunch
> >and dinner tickets/buttons handed out to key volunteers, performers, and
> >guests rather than being logged on a "list" for
> >the FAA.
> >
> >Another trend, and a negative one, is the local FSDO maintenance guys
want
> >all kinds of paperwork on the aircraft,
> >including details that have no relevance for a static display. One of our
> >'listers got busted for his parachute being out
> >of pack date....even though he had no actual need for a 'chute, as he was
> >NOT flying formation or aerobatics. More
> >than one pilot has walked away from briefings when this stuff started.
> >
> >My compensation? Don't ask and I won't tell.
> >
> >Craig Payne
> >
> >
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Flight Instruction in an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
myersf@attbi.com wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: myersf@attbi.com
>
> How fo I get my name to show up instead of to Yak-list?
The Matronics server always substitutes the yak-list as the return address in
any email it forwards. You need to manually change the "To:" field if you want
to reply to an individual instead of the list.
> Brian,
> This doesn't mean I won't do instruction in the Bulldog. I am just trying to
> find a way that doens't get me in trouble.
Do stay out of trouble. The FAA is not known for its collective sense of humor
or its sense of "the spirit of the law."
>
> I was under the impression that you taught your son to fly in your CJ?
No. He learned to fly in our Piper PA-16 Clipper. I felt that a tailwheel
airplane would demand more of his skills. I gave him his complex and
high-performance training in our Comanche. Regardless, he flies the CJ6A quite
well and, yes, he did get a lot of back-seat time until I was comfortable with
his handling of the systems. That turned out to be the most difficult part of
the training for him as he had very little prior experience (the Clipper doesn't
even have flaps.)
> If thats
> so then he didn't pay for it, you accomplished flight instruction, so where is
> the commercial operation?
I suspect that it would be OK since he is in the family. Regardless, he did his
complex/HP training in the Comanche.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 7
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|
| Subject: | Re: e: Yak-List:air show |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Frank Haertlein wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver@earthlink.net>
>
>
> Eyeballs, Brian
>
> Look........I don't charge for flying to the air show, I don't charge
> for the aerobatic sequences or formation flying I do. If it relates in
> any way to actual flying I don't charge for it. Do you thus agree that I
> am not engaged in a commercial "flying" activity?
>
> So then, what is wrong with charging for a "STATIC DISPLAY" model?
It doesn't matter what I think. It matters what the FAA thinks. It doesn't
matter if the FAA is right or wrong; they get to bring an enforcement action if
they wish to. As I suggested, look at Bob Hoover. Was the FAA wrong? Clearly.
Did it cost Bob bunches of time and money to correct? Clearly. Did Bob win
in the end? Not so clear.
So you pay your money and you take your choice. We can play guard-house lawyer
until we are all blue-in-the-face but if the FAA brings an enforcement action,
you are going to have to dance to their tune. Covering your butt ahead of time
and getting the local FSDO to go along with you, better still, to go along with
you in writing, is far-and-away the safest path. But remember, don't ask if you
aren't prepared to accept the answer.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 8
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|
| Subject: | Re: Air Speed Indicator Range Markings |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Ernie wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Ernie" <ernest.martinez@oracle.com>
>
> Sorry,
>
> Just realized that I cant attach docs.
>
> I have a non-chinese looking checklist which states the following.
>
> Vs0 59 kts 108kph
> Vs1 61 kts 112kph
> Vlo 130 kts 240kph
> Va 149 kts 275kph
>
> I dont know where this info came from, it looks as if it was made in the US
> The Nanchang Pilot notes do not specify Va but do specify Vlo as 92kts
> 170kph which is as Walt said.
The value for Va was calculated by me based on the stall speed. The value for
Va is calculated according to the following formula:
Va = Vs1 * Sqrt( max load factor in Gs)
If max load factor is 6 Gs then the square root of that is 2.45.
61kts * 2.45 = 149 kts.
The values for Vs0 and Vs1 were measured by me by going out and doing a stall
series after calibrating my ASI (doing an airspeed correction card to convert
IAS to CAS).
Vle and Vfe were given to me by Yakity Yaks when I purchased my aircraft. I saw
no reason to change them. I have done a LOT of gear extensions at 130 kts and
flap extensions at 108 kts with no apparent damage to either.
As for the determination of the yellow arc, I was going to try to calculate that
but I got lazy. I didn't have any airframe gust loading charts and I didn't
feel like trying to make some up based on similar aircraft with similar
airfoils. I just figured that, if I keep the pointer on the G-meter between the
+6 and -3 marks, I am probably OK in turbulance.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza, Suite 201
brian@lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 - voice +1.360.838.9669 - fax
Message 9
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|
| Subject: | Re: Airshow and fly-in attendance fees |
--> Yak-List message posted by: cjpilot710@aol.com
In a message dated 3/2/2003 8:40:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
YakDriver@comcast.net writes:
> In light of this talk of air show compenstion/perks, y'all might find it
> interesting to know what the Huntsville International (Alabama) airshow is
> requiring of us at their Blue Angel show of March 29-30. The several
> Yak/CJ/L-Bird owners around this area were invited to put our birds on
> static display. All we have to do is fly them over the day before the show,
> allow them to be "impounded," and pick them up after the last day of the
> show. If we want to see the show and watch over our birds we must drive to
> the airport with the public and pay the parking fees. Needless to say, none
> of us are going.
>
Gee. How to make friends with your airplane owners. Only a nonflying city
bureaucrat would think up something like that.
Jim
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin 1759
"With my shield, or on it"
Trojan Warriors BC
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