Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:45 AM - Russian MTV-9-250 Prop Service? (David Andreatta)
2. 06:03 AM - Re: Russian MTV-9-250 Prop Service? (Stephen Fox)
3. 06:30 AM - Re: Russian MTV-9-250 Prop Service? (Roger Kemp)
4. 06:37 AM - Re: Russian MTV-9-250 Prop Service? (cjpilot710@aol.com)
5. 06:55 AM - Re: Fuel and M14P (Dave Laird)
6. 08:18 AM - Re: Fuel and M14P (Roger Kemp)
7. 10:53 AM - For the Yak pilot that has everything. (Fraser, Gus)
8. 02:56 PM - Re: A couple of things (Michael Di Marco)
9. 03:36 PM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 10/11/05 (gena perevedentsev)
10. 03:41 PM - Re: Russian MTV-9-250 Prop Service? (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
11. 04:20 PM - Selma Earlybirds (Cpayne)
12. 04:34 PM - N444YK (SWP013@aol.com)
13. 04:49 PM - Re: Russian MTV-9-250 Prop Service? (Brian Lloyd)
14. 05:23 PM - Re: Russian MTV-9-250 Prop Service? (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
15. 09:22 PM - Re: Selma Earlybirds (Roger Kemp)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Russian MTV-9-250 Prop Service? |
--> Yak-List message posted by: David Andreatta <dandreat@earthlink.net>
Howdy, all;
I'm in the last few months of work before flying a project. My engine /
prop combination is a M-14P and a Russian MTV-9-250 prop, both with 39
hours. (Specifically, the prop is a MTB-9-B-C/CL-250-27. The 'B'
indicates Russian manufacture...) The prop was manufactured in '94.
My dilemma is that the prop wasn't in service when MT Service Bulletin
17 (the lag bolts) was issued, so it missed that upgrade. Also, the
surface of all the blades show significant striations radiating outward
from the hub. I'd like to call them delaminations, BUT multiple MT folks
have reassured me that this is only a cosmetic issue resulting from
shrinkage of the wood portions of the internal wood laminate core - that
alone would NOT require service. You can see that here
http://home.earthlink.net/~dandrea302/P7290031-1024.jpg HOWEVER, the
combination of 1) old prop, plus 2) missing the lag bolt inspection /
service, plus 3) the surface striations pretty much demand an overhaul
OR replacement.
As you may or may not know, MT in DeLand now refuses to do service on
the Russian contract manufactured props as of about 3 years ago. Even if
another MT authorized shop sends a prop part to DeLand which is of
Russian origin, it will be returned to the owner with "no action". For
example, if I wanted to get the hub upgraded to be compatible with the
new style blades (-29's) and my shop sent it to DeLand for machining, it
would simply be returned to me. (Many strong opinions exist on this
topic. I'm hoping to NOT start a flame war on MT's policy. Agree with it
or not, it is what it is...)
Anyway, I've contacted the MT authorized service centers listed on their
web page authorized to replace "erosion shields". (The ability to
replace erosion shields implies that they are authorized to re-surface
prop blades. This is what's necessary to cure the surface striation
problem too...) In short, none of their authorized centers in the US or
Canada will help with lag bolt inspection or overhaul, and I've already
received one rejection from Australia.
At this point, it's looking like replacement is the only option;
assuming I want compliance with Service Bulletin 17 (and I do), new
seals & o-rings, and resurfaced blades! Has anyone else had success in
just getting overhaul or repair service recently on the Russian
MTV(B)-9-250, including lag bolt inspection / replacement? If so, who do
you recommend? Any other good or bad experience with the surface
striations, or Russian MT prop repair in general, out there? It's not so
much that I mind buying a new one, I'm just curious what others have done...
If you want to reply off list, remove SPAM from the following email
address - mailto:dandreatSPAM@AndreattaEng.com
Thanks!
Dave Andreatta
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Russian MTV-9-250 Prop Service? |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Stephen Fox <jsfox@adelphia.net>
Dave-
You may want to give the Coy's or Dennis Savarse a call they they may
be able to point you in the right direction. Also Whirlwind will do a
prop refinishing taking blades down to the wood, re surfacing and
putting a nickle leading edge on. It's a beautiful job, they may also
be able to to do lag bolts, not sure.
Steve Fox
On Oct 13, 2005, at 8:45 AM, David Andreatta wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: David Andreatta
> <dandreat@earthlink.net>
>
> Howdy, all;
>
> I'm in the last few months of work before flying a project. My
> engine / prop combination is a M-14P and a Russian MTV-9-250 prop,
> both with 39 hours. (Specifically, the prop is a MTB-9-B-C/
> CL-250-27. The 'B' indicates Russian manufacture...) The prop was
> manufactured in '94.
>
> My dilemma is that the prop wasn't in service when MT Service
> Bulletin 17 (the lag bolts) was issued, so it missed that upgrade.
> Also, the surface of all the blades show significant striations
> radiating outward from the hub. I'd like to call them
> delaminations, BUT multiple MT folks have reassured me that this is
> only a cosmetic issue resulting from shrinkage of the wood portions
> of the internal wood laminate core - that alone would NOT require
> service. You can see that here http://home.earthlink.net/
> ~dandrea302/P7290031-1024.jpg HOWEVER, the combination of 1) old
> prop, plus 2) missing the lag bolt inspection / service, plus 3)
> the surface striations pretty much demand an overhaul OR replacement.
>
> As you may or may not know, MT in DeLand now refuses to do service
> on the Russian contract manufactured props as of about 3 years ago.
> Even if another MT authorized shop sends a prop part to DeLand
> which is of Russian origin, it will be returned to the owner with
> "no action". For example, if I wanted to get the hub upgraded to be
> compatible with the new style blades (-29's) and my shop sent it to
> DeLand for machining, it would simply be returned to me. (Many
> strong opinions exist on this topic. I'm hoping to NOT start a
> flame war on MT's policy. Agree with it or not, it is what it is...)
>
> Anyway, I've contacted the MT authorized service centers listed on
> their web page authorized to replace "erosion shields". (The
> ability to replace erosion shields implies that they are authorized
> to re-surface prop blades. This is what's necessary to cure the
> surface striation problem too...) In short, none of their
> authorized centers in the US or Canada will help with lag bolt
> inspection or overhaul, and I've already received one rejection
> from Australia.
>
> At this point, it's looking like replacement is the only option;
> assuming I want compliance with Service Bulletin 17 (and I do), new
> seals & o-rings, and resurfaced blades! Has anyone else had success
> in just getting overhaul or repair service recently on the Russian
> MTV(B)-9-250, including lag bolt inspection / replacement? If so,
> who do you recommend? Any other good or bad experience with the
> surface striations, or Russian MT prop repair in general, out
> there? It's not so much that I mind buying a new one, I'm just
> curious what others have done...
>
> If you want to reply off list, remove SPAM from the following email
> address - mailto:dandreatSPAM@AndreattaEng.com
>
> Thanks!
>
> Dave Andreatta
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Russian MTV-9-250 Prop Service? |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Steve and Dave,
I believe the last set of blades that Dennis sent out to be rebuilt were
sent to George Coy. They went out frozen on the hub and came back in great
shape. Ask Dennis Savarese at DSAVARESE@ELOMORE.RR.COM for more info on
what he does with his porps.
Doc
> [Original Message]
> From: Stephen Fox <jsfox@adelphia.net>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 10/13/2005 8:02:51 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Russian MTV-9-250 Prop Service?
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Stephen Fox <jsfox@adelphia.net>
>
> Dave-
>
> You may want to give the Coy's or Dennis Savarse a call they they may
> be able to point you in the right direction. Also Whirlwind will do a
> prop refinishing taking blades down to the wood, re surfacing and
> putting a nickle leading edge on. It's a beautiful job, they may also
> be able to to do lag bolts, not sure.
>
> Steve Fox
>
> On Oct 13, 2005, at 8:45 AM, David Andreatta wrote:
>
> > --> Yak-List message posted by: David Andreatta
> > <dandreat@earthlink.net>
> >
> > Howdy, all;
> >
> > I'm in the last few months of work before flying a project. My
> > engine / prop combination is a M-14P and a Russian MTV-9-250 prop,
> > both with 39 hours. (Specifically, the prop is a MTB-9-B-C/
> > CL-250-27. The 'B' indicates Russian manufacture...) The prop was
> > manufactured in '94.
> >
> > My dilemma is that the prop wasn't in service when MT Service
> > Bulletin 17 (the lag bolts) was issued, so it missed that upgrade.
> > Also, the surface of all the blades show significant striations
> > radiating outward from the hub. I'd like to call them
> > delaminations, BUT multiple MT folks have reassured me that this is
> > only a cosmetic issue resulting from shrinkage of the wood portions
> > of the internal wood laminate core - that alone would NOT require
> > service. You can see that here http://home.earthlink.net/
> > ~dandrea302/P7290031-1024.jpg HOWEVER, the combination of 1) old
> > prop, plus 2) missing the lag bolt inspection / service, plus 3)
> > the surface striations pretty much demand an overhaul OR replacement.
> >
> > As you may or may not know, MT in DeLand now refuses to do service
> > on the Russian contract manufactured props as of about 3 years ago.
> > Even if another MT authorized shop sends a prop part to DeLand
> > which is of Russian origin, it will be returned to the owner with
> > "no action". For example, if I wanted to get the hub upgraded to be
> > compatible with the new style blades (-29's) and my shop sent it to
> > DeLand for machining, it would simply be returned to me. (Many
> > strong opinions exist on this topic. I'm hoping to NOT start a
> > flame war on MT's policy. Agree with it or not, it is what it is...)
> >
> > Anyway, I've contacted the MT authorized service centers listed on
> > their web page authorized to replace "erosion shields". (The
> > ability to replace erosion shields implies that they are authorized
> > to re-surface prop blades. This is what's necessary to cure the
> > surface striation problem too...) In short, none of their
> > authorized centers in the US or Canada will help with lag bolt
> > inspection or overhaul, and I've already received one rejection
> > from Australia.
> >
> > At this point, it's looking like replacement is the only option;
> > assuming I want compliance with Service Bulletin 17 (and I do), new
> > seals & o-rings, and resurfaced blades! Has anyone else had success
> > in just getting overhaul or repair service recently on the Russian
> > MTV(B)-9-250, including lag bolt inspection / replacement? If so,
> > who do you recommend? Any other good or bad experience with the
> > surface striations, or Russian MT prop repair in general, out
> > there? It's not so much that I mind buying a new one, I'm just
> > curious what others have done...
> >
> > If you want to reply off list, remove SPAM from the following email
> > address - mailto:dandreatSPAM@AndreattaEng.com
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Dave Andreatta
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Russian MTV-9-250 Prop Service? |
In a message dated 10/13/2005 8:47:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
dandreat@earthlink.net writes:
Dave,
First of all I don't know nothing about the MTB-9-B-C/CL-250-27 prop
problem. I willing to bet that none of these prop have a US STC. It sounds to
me
like MT in DeLand is in a pissing contest of sorts. I don't know.
Find out exactly what needs to be inspected and how. Any competent machine
shop or regular prop shop should be able to do this, if not they can lead you
to one who can do the testing. All you want from them is the assurance that
no cracks or voids are present in the parts. You are not looking for a
'sign off' of an STC part as "airworthy". Every thing about your airplane is
experimental anyway.
Now if this 'service bulletin' has to do with what material (metal) is used
in the parts (i.e. its no good) all any of these inspections will tell you is
that the part isn't broken right now. At that point I'd say get a new prop
or ask yourself how much you do trust the material and for how long.
Also Whirlwind has redone my 'Russian' blades (2 blade paddles) twice. With
the nickel leading edges and satin finish they are beautiful.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
--> Yak-List message posted by: David Andreatta <dandreat@earthlink.net>
Howdy, all;
I'm in the last few months of work before flying a project. My engine /
prop combination is a M-14P and a Russian MTV-9-250 prop, both with 39
hours. (Specifically, the prop is a MTB-9-B-C/CL-250-27. The 'B'
indicates Russian manufacture...) The prop was manufactured in '94.
My dilemma is that the prop wasn't in service when MT Service Bulletin
17 (the lag bolts) was issued, so it missed that upgrade. Also, the
surface of all the blades show significant striations radiating outward
from the hub. I'd like to call them delaminations, BUT multiple MT folks
have reassured me that this is only a cosmetic issue resulting from
shrinkage of the wood portions of the internal wood laminate core - that
alone would NOT require service. You can see that here
http://home.earthlink.net/~dandrea302/P7290031-1024.jpg HOWEVER, the
combination of 1) old prop, plus 2) missing the lag bolt inspection /
service, plus 3) the surface striations pretty much demand an overhaul
OR replacement.
As you may or may not know, MT in DeLand now refuses to do service on
the Russian contract manufactured props as of about 3 years ago. Even if
another MT authorized shop sends a prop part to DeLand which is of
Russian origin, it will be returned to the owner with "no action". For
example, if I wanted to get the hub upgraded to be compatible with the
new style blades (-29's) and my shop sent it to DeLand for machining, it
would simply be returned to me. (Many strong opinions exist on this
topic. I'm hoping to NOT start a flame war on MT's policy. Agree with it
or not, it is what it is...)
Anyway, I've contacted the MT authorized service centers listed on their
web page authorized to replace "erosion shields". (The ability to
replace erosion shields implies that they are authorized to re-surface
prop blades. This is what's necessary to cure the surface striation
problem too...) In short, none of their authorized centers in the US or
Canada will help with lag bolt inspection or overhaul, and I've already
received one rejection from Australia.
At this point, it's looking like replacement is the only option;
assuming I want compliance with Service Bulletin 17 (and I do), new
seals & o-rings, and resurfaced blades! Has anyone else had success in
just getting overhaul or repair service recently on the Russian
MTV(B)-9-250, including lag bolt inspection / replacement? If so, who do
you recommend? Any other good or bad experience with the surface
striations, or Russian MT prop repair in general, out there? It's not so
much that I mind buying a new one, I'm just curious what others have done...
If you want to reply off list, remove SPAM from the following email
address - mailto:dandreatSPAM@AndreattaEng.com
Thanks!
Dave Andreatta
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel and M14P |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Dave Laird <dave@davelaird.com>
>
> When I sold "Betty" she had about 700 hours on the Huosai engine,
> most of that running mogas. She is still flying with the same
> engine but I don't know how many hours are on that engine now.
>
>
Hey Brian,
She's got 912 hours so far on the Huosai... and she's running strong.
I actually wish I put more hours on her....but dang, life is busy
sometimes!!
Flew her down to the Big Bend area of Texas a couple weeks back....
that big baggage compartment rocked...
Oh, and my new girlfriend actually LIKES to fly with me.... Even
Formation and Acro! Maybe I finally got lucky!
Dave Laird
N63536 1983 CJ6A "Betty"
Dallas
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel and M14P |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
You got Lucky. She's a keeper if she like to fly!
Doc
> [Original Message]
> From: Dave Laird <dave@davelaird.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 10/13/2005 8:54:58 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Fuel and M14P
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Dave Laird <dave@davelaird.com>
>
> >
> > When I sold "Betty" she had about 700 hours on the Huosai engine,
> > most of that running mogas. She is still flying with the same
> > engine but I don't know how many hours are on that engine now.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Hey Brian,
> She's got 912 hours so far on the Huosai... and she's running strong.
>
> I actually wish I put more hours on her....but dang, life is busy
> sometimes!!
> Flew her down to the Big Bend area of Texas a couple weeks back....
> that big baggage compartment rocked...
> Oh, and my new girlfriend actually LIKES to fly with me.... Even
> Formation and Acro! Maybe I finally got lucky!
>
>
> Dave Laird
> N63536 1983 CJ6A "Betty"
> Dallas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | For the Yak pilot that has everything. |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Fraser, Gus" <gus.fraser@gs.com>
Saw this on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/Boots-Randolph-Signed-Yakety-Yak-Album-LP_W0QQitemZ75532
07975QQcategoryZ104411QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Message 8
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|
| Subject: | Re: A couple of things |
My CJ gets 87 unleaded mogas with a quart of marvel's/100 gallons in it and leaded
additive from Wal-Mart. After three years, the cylinders still hold 78/80.
The 100 gallon tank in the back of my pick-up has paid for itself many times
over.
Mike Di Marco
China Blue
---------------------------------
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 10/11/05 |
--> Yak-List message posted by: gena perevedentsev <genaperevedent@yahoo.co.uk>
M-14p was certified for aviation fuel B91/115.This
figures are detonation performances at lean and rich
mixture. System of quality tests was very strict. In
the last years demand for B91/115 decreased following
reduction of demands for agricultural aviation and
general decline of economic activities.Substitution
for av fuel was found in Mogas.Most popular was
89/95. There were no problems with detonation.Problems
were to find reliable supplier of good Mogas.Another
problem could arise from higher vapour pressure of
Mogas, causing vapour lock of fuel pump at certain
conditions.There were various mods to overcome, like
cooling fuel pump and adjacent
hoses.
cleared their An-2s for Mogas with
limitations.Operation tests were carried out on M-14s
with no adverse effects noted.
Happy flying.
--- Yak-List Digest Server
<yak-list-digest@matronics.com> wrote:
> *
>
> ==================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> ==================================================
>
> Today's complete Yak-List Digest can also be found
> in either of the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes
> the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features
> Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the
> plain ASCII version
> of the Yak-List Digest and can be viewed with a
> generic text editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list/Digest.Yak-List.2005-10-11.html
>
> Text Version:
>
>
>
http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list/Digest.Yak-List.2005-10-11.txt
>
>
> ================================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ================================================
>
>
>
>
> Yak-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Tue
> 10/11/05: 24
>
>
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 03:33 AM - Certified Aircraft (Ira
> Saligman)
> 2. 04:26 AM - Re: G limits on the CJ6
> (cjpilot710@aol.com)
> 3. 05:37 AM - Re: Air lines (Ernest Martinez)
> 4. 05:49 AM - Re: Air lines (A. Dennis
> Savarese)
> 5. 06:00 AM - Walter Turbine in Yak-52
> (Richard Goode)
> 6. 06:09 AM - Re: Walter Turbine in Yak-52
> (Robert Schwartz)
> 7. 07:02 AM - A couple of things (Janet
> Davidson)
> 8. 07:27 AM - Re: exhaust systems available
> soon (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
> 9. 07:28 AM - Re: A couple of things (A.
> Dennis Savarese)
> 10. 07:28 AM - Re: Air lines (Ernest Martinez)
> 11. 08:32 AM - Re: A couple of things (Brian
> Lloyd)
> 12. 08:44 AM - Re: G limits on the CJ6 (Doug
> Sapp)
> 13. 09:12 AM - Re: A couple of things
> (ggg6@att.net)
> 14. 09:42 AM - Re: A couple of things (Walter
> Lannon)
> 15. 10:47 AM - Red Air FAll Fling (Roger Kemp)
> 16. 11:10 AM - Re: A couple of things (Brian
> Lloyd)
> 17. 11:50 AM - Re: A couple of things
> (ggg6@att.net)
> 18. 11:55 AM - Re: A couple of things
> (Bitterlich GS11 Mark G)
> 19. 12:08 PM - Re: A couple of things (A.
> Dennis Savarese)
> 20. 12:50 PM - mogas and M14P (Brian Lloyd)
> 21. 01:14 PM - Re: mogas and M14P (Brian Lloyd)
> 22. 01:41 PM - Re: Re: mogas and M14P
> (ggg6@att.net)
> 23. 06:40 PM - BBC E-mail: China launches rocket
> into space (Janet)
> 24. 07:43 PM - Re: A couple of things (Cliff
> Umscheid)
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 03:33:57 AM PST US
> From: "Ira Saligman" <isaligman@saligman.com>
> Subject: Yak-List: Certified Aircraft
>
> We are looking at a newly certified aircraft.
>
> If anyone has any experience in the manufacture of
> certified aircraft, if
> you have a miunte, please contact me.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Ira Saligman
>
> o 610 324 5500
> f 215 243 7699
>
> <mailto:isaligman@saligman.com>
> isaligman@saligman.com
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 04:26:58 AM PST US
> From: cjpilot710@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: G limits on the CJ6
>
>
> In a message dated 10/10/2005 11:53:02 P.M. Eastern
> Daylight Time,
> joeh@shaw.ca writes:
>
> Yakkers
>
> Has anyone ever seen an official doc. showing
> allowable plus and minus "G"
> for the CJ6 ?
>
> Joe
>
>
> Plus 6.5 to minus 3. Its in the aircraft manual.
>
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
> ________________________________ Message 3
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:37:18 AM PST US
> From: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air lines
>
> Why is there hydraulic fluid in your airplane?????
>
> Ernie
>
> On 10/10/05, aaron marshall
> <aaron@marshallservices.com> wrote:
> >
> > Might anyone know of a source for vented caps
> (that seal when inverted)
> > that will tolerate 5606 hydraulic fluid? My brake
> fluid resevoir has a cap
> > with a 20 thousandths hole in it and after any
> sort of negative G flight,
> > most of the fluid is pushed out of the small
> casister and down the side of
> > my airplane. Has any one else had this problem
> aand solved it?
> > Thanks
> > Aaron Marshall
> > YAK52TW
> >
>
> ________________________________ Message 4
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:49:45 AM PST US
> From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air lines
>
> Because he has a 52TW with toe brakes.
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ernest Martinez
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 7:36 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Air lines
>
>
> Why is there hydraulic fluid in your airplane?????
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On 10/10/05, aaron marshall
> <aaron@marshallservices.com> wrote:
> Might anyone know of a source for vented caps
> (that
=== message truncated ===
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
Message 10
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| Subject: | Russian MTV-9-250 Prop Service? |
Gents, I am EXTREMELY well versed in the Russian MT prop issue. A few years
ago I took this issue all the way to the top at MT over in Germany. The
short version of this issue is that the Russians were indeed at one time
licensed to build some props under an agreement with MT. The agreement
stated that NONE of these props would ever be sold, or used.... on aircraft
outside of the Eastern Bloc. At some time later, the quality control used
during the production of these props was brought into question by MT and the
whole thing fell apart.
The story I was told by MT is that even certain parts in the (Russian) hubs
themselves are not interchangeable with parts made by MT. That said, if
they have a prop returned for the lag bolt service bulletin, they have
certain Quality Assurance standards that demand that when they return the
prop to service, that their company reputation and name is riding on the
performance of each one. I can't really say that I blame them there. The
Russian props were not made by them, and they should not be required to
service and support what they didn't make, and what was by agreement never
supposed to be sold in this country, nor was any aircraft shipped to this
country supposed to be equipped with this prop!
What is REALLY screwed up is that more than one prop dealer in this country
(now out of business of course) SOLD THESE PROPS to unsuspecting customers
who in fact THOUGHT that they were purchasing a true MT product and not a
"knock off" per se. No.. it was not really a "knock off", but there are
similar aspects to that terms at least.
I had the opportunity to buy one of these props for $3000. At the end of
this mess, the price went down to $1500. After talking to the President of
MT, he even agreed that he would allow me to ship the whole prop to Germany,
and have it completely overhauled and brought up to MT QA standards for ...
I forget the amount... but it was pretty significant. I finally declined
and am still trying to decide what to do about a three blade!
Pappy, I tried to go to MANY prop shops with this lag bolt issue and talk to
them about doing the work on the Russian prop. Most of them just simply
declined. The word is out on these props and no shop really wants to get
into some kind of legal battle with MT.. and they are probably wise not to.
The really sad thing is that it is people like you, me, or David get left
holding the bag here, and there is little to nothing that can be done about
it.
The whole thing really left such a sour taste in my mouth that even now, I
have hesitations every time I think about purchasing an MT product. I also
have to say that I question my own logic in that regard. It very simply
might not have been their fault in any way. Still.... what a mess.
The bottom line is.... this is the proper place to make this issue known to
all Russian aircraft owners that these props are "out there" and one needs
to be aware that they could be on any aircraft that they purchase. Make
sure when you think you are buying a MT prop for a Russian aircraft... that
it really is made by MT and not Russian made instead. Considering that this
prop sells for around 13-14 THOUSAND dollars from MT... it has a big
influence on the selling price of any aircraft so equipped.
Caveat Emptor
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com [mailto:cjpilot710@aol.com]
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Russian MTV-9-250 Prop Service?
In a message dated 10/13/2005 8:47:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
dandreat@earthlink.net writes:
Dave,
First of all I don't know nothing about the MTB-9-B-C/CL-250-27 prop
problem. I willing to bet that none of these prop have a US STC. It sounds
to me like MT in DeLand is in a pissing contest of sorts. I don't know.
Find out exactly what needs to be inspected and how. Any competent machine
shop or regular prop shop should be able to do this, if not they can lead
you to one who can do the testing. All you want from them is the assurance
that no cracks or voids are present in the parts. You are not looking for a
'sign off' of an STC part as "airworthy". Every thing about your airplane
is experimental anyway.
Now if this 'service bulletin' has to do with what material (metal) is used
in the parts (i.e. its no good) all any of these inspections will tell you
is that the part isn't broken right now. At that point I'd say get a new
prop or ask yourself how much you do trust the material and for how long.
Also Whirlwind has redone my 'Russian' blades (2 blade paddles) twice. With
the nickel leading edges and satin finish they are beautiful.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
--> Yak-List message posted by: David Andreatta <dandreat@earthlink.net>
Howdy, all;
I'm in the last few months of work before flying a project. My engine /
prop combination is a M-14P and a Russian MTV-9-250 prop, both with 39
hours. (Specifically, the prop is a MTB-9-B-C/CL-250-27. The 'B'
indicates Russian manufacture...) The prop was manufactured in '94.
My dilemma is that the prop wasn't in service when MT Service Bulletin
17 (the lag bolts) was issued, so it missed that upgrade. Also, the
surface of all the blades show significant striations radiating outward
from the hub. I'd like to call them delaminations, BUT multiple MT folks
have reassured me that this is only a cosmetic issue resulting from
shrinkage of the wood portions of the internal wood laminate core - that
alone would NOT require service. You can see that here
http://home.earthlink.net/~dandrea302/P7290031-1024.jpg HOWEVER, the
combination of 1) old prop, plus 2) missing the lag bolt inspection /
service, plus 3) the surface striations pretty much demand an overhaul
OR replacement.
As you may or may not know, MT in DeLand now refuses to do service on
the Russian contract manufactured props as of about 3 years ago. Even if
another MT authorized shop sends a prop part to DeLand which is of
Russian origin, it will be returned to the owner with "no action". For
example, if I wanted to get the hub upgraded to be compatible with the
new style blades (-29's) and my shop sent it to DeLand for machining, it
would simply be returned to me. (Many strong opinions exist on this
topic. I'm hoping to NOT start a flame war on MT's policy. Agree with it
or not, it is what it is...)
Anyway, I've contacted the MT authorized service centers listed on their
web page authorized to replace "erosion shields". (The ability to
replace erosion shields implies that they are authorized to re-surface
prop blades. This is what's necessary to cure the surface striation
problem too...) In short, none of their authorized centers in the US or
Canada will help with lag bolt inspection or overhaul, and I've already
received one rejection from Australia.
At this point, it's looking like replacement is the only option;
assuming I want compliance with Service Bulletin 17 (and I do), new
seals & o-rings, and resurfaced blades! Has anyone else had success in
just getting overhaul or repair service recently on the Russian
MTV(B)-9-250, including lag bolt inspection / replacement? If so, who do
you recommend? Any other good or bad experience with the surface
striations, or Russian MT prop repair in general, out there? It's not so
much that I mind buying a new one, I'm just curious what others have done...
If you want to reply off list, remove SPAM from the following email
address - mailto:dandreatSPAM@AndreattaEng.com
Thanks!
Dave =========================p; es Day
--> ====================================================
Message 11
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| Subject: | Selma Earlybirds |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Cpayne <cpayne@joimail.com>
Flying started already with checkrides and the like. Plenty of Earlybirds, even
a T-34 that Ken Terry rescued from the spar mod shop. Weather looks good through
weekend. Starting to look like ARS East.
Craig Payne
Message 12
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Yakksters!
N444YK is still for sale and the lousy weather is hitting Cape Cod. Come
buy this airplane from us before we're snowed in for the winter again.
Contact me off list for pics and specs.
Sam "SPUD" Patellos
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Russian MTV-9-250 Prop Service? |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:
> The whole thing really left such a sour taste in my mouth that even now,
> I have hesitations every time I think about purchasing an MT product. I
> also have to say that I question my own logic in that regard. It very
> simply might not have been their fault in any way. Still.... what a mess.
The customers (us) are pretty savvy and understand that these props are not
true MT props made with German QA. Regardless, a smart business person would
look on this as an opportunity. Were I the prez of MT, I would put together a
plan to bring the Russian props back in and recertify them at cost, and then
eliminate the problem. The PR would be 100% good and it would make for both
happy and loyal customers.
It bounds their liability too.
And the Germans already have experience doing this with a whole country, i.e.
East Germany. If they can do it with a country they can do it with a couple of
props.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak@lloyd.com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 14
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| Subject: | Russian MTV-9-250 Prop Service? |
Brian Lloyd wrote:
>The customers (us) are pretty savvy and understand that these props are not
>true MT props made with German QA. Regardless, a smart business person
would
>look on this as an opportunity. Were I the prez of MT, I would put together
a
>plan to bring the Russian props back in and recertify them at cost, and
then
>eliminate the problem. The PR would be 100% good and it would make for both
>happy and loyal customers.
I spoke those exact words to the President of MT. More or less anyway.
His response ... after dozens of emails, was that he would do it for me as a
one time exception to the rules, and then only at a price.
I honestly feel that HE felt he was being very generous to offer even that.
Possibly he was!
Tom Adams is pretty well known in the competitive aerobatic world of the
IAC, and that is who I was dealing with regarding the Russian prop. Knowing
Hubie Tolson, who is now a U.S. World Aerobatic Team Member (and a good
friend of the President) did not help either.
I tried everything I could think of...... they gave an inch... or should I
say... a centimeter... and not one bit more than that.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Lloyd [mailto:brian-yak@lloyd.com]
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Russian MTV-9-250 Prop Service?
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:
> The whole thing really left such a sour taste in my mouth that even now,
> I have hesitations every time I think about purchasing an MT product. I
> also have to say that I question my own logic in that regard. It very
> simply might not have been their fault in any way. Still.... what a mess.
The customers (us) are pretty savvy and understand that these props are not
true MT props made with German QA. Regardless, a smart business person would
look on this as an opportunity. Were I the prez of MT, I would put together
a
plan to bring the Russian props back in and recertify them at cost, and then
eliminate the problem. The PR would be 100% good and it would make for both
happy and loyal customers.
It bounds their liability too.
And the Germans already have experience doing this with a whole country,
i.e.
East Germany. If they can do it with a country they can do it with a couple
of
props.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Selma Earlybirds |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp" <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
No Craig, it may look like ARS but it is not. It is RED AIR FALL FLING. It
is intended to be the last Red aircraft fly-in of the flying season. For
the Fri AM arrivals, watch the fog. It burned off this morning by about
1000.
Doc
> [Original Message]
> From: Cpayne <cpayne@joimail.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 10/13/2005 6:19:56 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: Selma Earlybirds
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Cpayne <cpayne@joimail.com>
>
> Flying started already with checkrides and the like. Plenty of
Earlybirds, even a T-34 that Ken Terry rescued from the spar mod shop.
Weather looks good through weekend. Starting to look like ARS East.
>
> Craig Payne
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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