Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:25 AM - Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] (dralle@matronics.com)
2. 12:34 AM - Re: EP of the Week (Ernest Martinez)
3. 01:38 AM - Re: EP of the Week (A. Dennis Savarese)
4. 04:14 AM - More Rivets (Craig Payne)
5. 04:20 AM - Re: Question of the Week #2 (Craig Payne)
6. 05:16 AM - Re : rivets (gena perevedentsev)
7. 07:57 AM - Re: EP of the Week (Jon Boede)
8. 08:22 AM - Re: EP of the Week (A. Dennis Savarese)
9. 08:34 AM - Re: EP of the Week (Brian Lloyd)
10. 09:00 AM - Re: EP of the Week (Brian Lloyd)
11. 10:16 AM - Decals (N13472@aol.com)
12. 10:40 AM - Re: Decals (Ernest Martinez)
13. 10:42 AM - Re: Decals (Ernest Martinez)
14. 03:41 PM - Re: exhaust wanted (Doug Sapp)
15. 03:52 PM - Re: exhaust wanted (A. Dennis Savarese)
16. 05:31 PM - Re: exhaust wanted (Brian Lloyd)
17. 08:15 PM - Russian Airshow pix (Walt Murphy)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] |
DNA: do not archive
--> Yak-List message posted by: dralle@matronics.com
Dear Lister,
Please read over the Yak-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Yak-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Yak-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Yak-List Usage Guidelines
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The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Yak-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Yak-List in the manner described below may result
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[This is an automated posting.]
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: EP of the Week |
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: EP of the Week |
My reply is based on Yak 52's, but may also apply to CJ6's.
What is a likely cause of the air leak?
The leak is most likely caused by an undercarriage actuator seal leaking. If air
continues to leak out of the gear handle, don't assume you have a bad gear
handle. It is most likely a seal leaking in one of the undercarriage actuators.
What is the normal air pressure drop when you extend the gear?
Expect about 4, maybe 5 ATM's. flap? Expect about 2, possibly 3 ATM's.
How long would it take to replenish your air supply if you could isolate the leak?
Under normal circumstances, it will take 20 minutes (possibly a little longer,
which is also normal) to replenish the main air tank to 50 ATM if the air pressure
is at 20 ATM's.
How long would you trouble-shoot an air/gear malfunction? With 20 ATM's and on
short final, I would not try trouble shooting an air/gear malfunction. The gear
is already down and locked and therefore no air pressure is required to maintain
the actuators in the down and locked position. The only thing you need
air for is to stop the airplane. So slow down and land as close to the threshold
as practical; roll out and use brakes only to make the turn off the runway.
Now here is an alternative that one might consider. Since the undercarriage
is indicating DOWN AND LOCKED and we know we don't need air to keep the undercarriage
in the locked position, one could consider opening the emergency air
valve while rolling out just to have air pressure to brake the airplane. Once
again, since the gear is already down and locked, we don't have to worry about
"blowing" the gear down. Assume for a moment that we've accomplished a safe
landing and we're rolling out on the runway and we see the MAIN air pressure
continue to drop to now about 10 ATM's. Yes, we have a leak, but if we make
50 or so ATM's available for the brakes via the emergency system (yes, the emergency
air would also leak out because it also goes to the actuators), based
on the time it took to leak down the main system, we would have adequate air to
stop the airplane and turn off the runway.
. i.e. what is the minimum fuel you would want to land with?
Not applicable to this scenario since we decided to proceed with the landing.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Linebaugh
To: yak-list@matronics. com
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 9:35 PM
Subject: Yak-List: EP of the Week
Things have been a bit slow lately...so how 'bout this one to spice things
up?
Question of the Week #2
You enter the traffic pattern on a busy Saturday afternoon, and report
downwind to the tower. Tower responds, "follow the Cessna ahead on downwind,
you are #3". You put the gear handle down, get three green lights, and three
visual indicators. You check the main air pressure: it is at 32.."hmm, wasn't
it just at 40?"
You follow the Cessna and eventually turn on to an extended base leg.
Intercepting a normal glidepath, you put the flap down, and start down. "oops..now
the air is at 22!?" Time to fly the airplane; you are now on final and
Tower clears you to land. Back to the air pressure.. it is now down to 20. What
are you going to do?
Some Points to Consider:
You DO always check air pressure on final, don't you???
What is a likely cause of the air leak?
What is the normal air pressure drop when you extend the gear? flap?
How long would it take to replenish your air supply if you could isolate
the leak?
How long would you trouble-shoot an air/gear malfunction? . i.e. what
is the minimum fuel you would want to land with?
Some Suggestions for the next time you fly:
As a review during your preflight, spend a few minutes tracing your gear
retract and extension lines and identify all the components of the gear system.
Jeff Linebaugh
jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~jefflinebaugh/
CJ-6P N621CJ
Memphis, TN
Message 4
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Walt wrote:
>> Brian;
>>
>> I just can't pass this up. The only rivets you will use on the CJ are
>> coded AD (AN470ADx - y or AN426ADx-y where x - dia. and y = length in
>> 1/6 increments). These are driven as received, if you attempt to anneal
>> them you will &*$ them up
>
Yeah, I knew that too, I use the dimpled rivet. Some of the local tin pounders
were amused that the Chinese even used dimpled rivets, especially back in the
Iron Curtain days.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Question of the Week #2 |
>
>How long would you trouble-shoot an air/gear malfunction? =85 i.e. what is
>the minimum fuel you would want to land with?
>
The question is moot! Since the gear is aleady down and locked by a properly maintained
internal ball valve, air pressure is only relevant to flaps and brakes.
Get yourself on the ground first. Ask for "precautionary" landing priority
if you need it, that way you don't mention the "E" word. Sort it out on the ground.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
Message 6
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Looking at CJ-6 wing you can see some rivets with dimpled head some with plain.
I think material specifications and markings were taken from Russian standards.
This means that dimpled are D-18T and plain are B65. Shear strenghth of
these materials is 20 and 25 kg/mmsq. Now look at available 2117T
-it could be,after convertion,around19. Another option is 2017T with 21 and
2024T with 24. American AC43.13 recommends increasing dash nimber when putting
AD instead of D or DD i.e. choice of rivet 1/32 larger diameter.
If you are changing couple of rivets in secondary structure, it is not a problem.
But if it is a primary structure, then it is worth concideration. But
in the primary structure, again, manufactures in older days could use B95 a raised
cross or D19 four raised tits with higher strenghth.
Happy flying.
Gena.
Yak-List Digest Server <yak-list-digest@matronics.com> wrote: *
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Yak-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Thu 12/01/05: 15
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:49 AM - Re: exhaust wanted (ron wasson)
2. 06:23 AM - Need Rivet Gun Set (Craig Payne)
3. 07:31 AM - Re: Need Rivet Gun Set (Brian Lloyd)
4. 07:45 AM - Re: exhaust wanted (Jim and Vivian)
5. 09:10 AM - Re: Re: Need Rivet Gun Set (Craig Payne)
6. 09:44 AM - Re: exhaust wanted (Doug Sapp)
7. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: Re: Need Rivet Gun Set (Roger Doc Kemp)
8. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: Need Rivet Gun Set (Richard Basiliere)
9. 09:52 AM - Re: Re: Re: Need Rivet Gun Set (Brian Lloyd)
10. 05:54 PM - Re: Re: Re: Need Rivet Gun Set (Walter Lannon)
11. 06:07 PM - Re: exhaust wanted (Gene Stansbery)
12. 07:13 PM - Re: Re: Re: Need Rivet Gun Set (Brian Lloyd)
13. 07:35 PM - EP of the Week (Jeff Linebaugh)
14. 08:32 PM - Re: Re: Re: Need Rivet Gun Set (JOE HOWSE)
15. 09:13 PM - RPA E-Coms Improved: New Events (Drew Blahnick)
________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
Time: 01:49:35 AM PST US
From: ron wasson
Subject: Re: Yak-List: exhaust wanted
doug sapp
ron wasson
ronwasson@mindspring.com
On Dec 1, 2005, at 12:21 AM, Gene Stansbery wrote:
> Can anyone tell me where I can get a stainless steel exhaust for a
> CJ with standard 285 HP engine?
>
> Thanks,
> Gene Stansbery
> N2278
>
________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
Time: 06:23:35 AM PST US
From: "Craig Payne"
Subject: Yak-List: Need Rivet Gun Set
Anyone have a surplus 3X rivet gun, with regulator, .401 shank sets, straight and
offset, with bucking bars for sale? I'm looking on Ebay but I'll give the Yak-list
a shot. Prefer a serviceable set in a case.
Off list replys please.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
Time: 07:31:54 AM PST US
From: Brian Lloyd
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Need Rivet Gun Set
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd
Craig Payne wrote:
> Anyone have a surplus 3X rivet gun, with regulator, .401 shank sets,
> straight and offset, with bucking bars for sale? I'm looking on Ebay but
> I'll give the Yak-list a shot. Prefer a serviceable set in a case.
I recommend you post to the rv-list. You will most likely get an
answer from someone there as some people sell their tools when they
finish and sell their RVs. As a member of yak-list you are allowed
to post to any of the Matronics lists.
> Off list replys please.
I thought the information about cross-posting might be of general
interest.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
Time: 07:45:02 AM PST US
From: "Jim and Vivian"
Subject: Re: Yak-List: exhaust wanted
I have one New
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Stansbery
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 10:21 PM
Subject: Yak-List: exhaust wanted
Can anyone tell me where I can get a stainless steel exhaust for a CJ with
standard 285 HP engine?
Thanks,
Gene Stansbery
N2278
________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
Time: 09:10:49 AM PST US
From: "Craig Payne"
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Re: Need Rivet Gun Set
Brian wrote:
>
>I recommend you post to the rv-list. You will most likely get an
>answer from someone there as some people sell their tools when they
>finish and sell their RVs. As a member of yak-list you are allowed
>to post to any of the Matronics lists.
>
Done, thanks. Kinda of thought about it before but I should have realized that
RV guys are mostly builders while a lot of Yak Lister's are checkbook mechanics.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
Time: 09:44:30 AM PST US
From: "Doug Sapp"
Subject: RE: Yak-List: exhaust wanted
Gene,
I have them, $1700.00 compete.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gene Stansbery
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 10:21 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: exhaust wanted
Can anyone tell me where I can get a stainless steel exhaust for a CJ with
standard 285 HP engine?
Thanks,
Gene Stansbery
N2278
________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
Time: 09:51:30 AM PST US
From: "Roger Doc Kemp"
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Re: Need Rivet Gun Set
----- Original Message -----
From: Craig Payne
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Re: Need Rivet Gun Set
I should have realized that RV guys are mostly builders while a lot of Yak Lister's
are checkbook mechanics.
Craig Payne
I resemble that remark! Just ask Dennis, I do get grease under my nails.....eventually!
I''m more of a Shadetree Mechanic. I lay in the Shade while you Mechanic!
Doc
________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________
Time: 09:51:51 AM PST US
From: "Richard Basiliere"
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Re: Need Rivet Gun Set
That hurt...:-)
>>> cpayne@joimail.com 12/1/2005 10:06:15 AM >>>
Brian wrote:
>
>I recommend you post to the rv-list. You will most likely get an
>answer from someone there as some people sell their tools when they
>finish and sell their RVs. As a member of yak-list you are allowed
>to post to any of the Matronics lists.
>
Done, thanks. Kinda of thought about it before but I should have
realized that RV guys are mostly builders while a lot of Yak Lister's
are checkbook mechanics.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________
Time: 09:52:31 AM PST US
From: Brian Lloyd
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Re: Need Rivet Gun Set
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd
Craig Payne wrote:
> >I recommend you post to the rv-list.
> >
> Done, thanks. Kinda of thought about it before but I should have
> realized that RV guys are mostly builders while a lot of Yak Lister's
> are checkbook mechanics.
Well, there are some of us in the middle but, by and large, the RV
guys are builders and have the tools.
Pounding rivets is a good stress-reducer. I used to imagine the
rivet head as boss/wife/ex-wife head. ;-)
BTW, don't forget to anneal the rivets before you use them. It makes
driving them easier
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________
Time: 05:54:24 PM PST US
From: "Walter Lannon"
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Re: Need Rivet Gun Set
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd"
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Re: Need Rivet Gun Set
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd
>
> Craig Payne wrote:
>
>> >I recommend you post to the rv-list.
>> >
>> Done, thanks. Kinda of thought about it before but I should have realized
>> that RV guys are mostly builders while a lot of Yak Lister's are
>> checkbook mechanics.
>
> Well, there are some of us in the middle but, by and large, the RV guys
> are builders and have the tools.
>
> Pounding rivets is a good stress-reducer. I used to imagine the rivet head
> as boss/wife/ex-wife head. ;-)
>
> BTW, don't forget to anneal the rivets before you use them. It makes
> driving them easier
Brian;
I just can't pass this up. The only rivets you will use on the CJ are coded
AD (AN470ADx - y or AN426ADx-y where x - dia. and y = length in 1/6
increments). These are driven as received, if you attempt to anneal them you
will
&*$ them up.
The rivets you are refering to are coded DDand rarely used anymore. They are
a different alloy and were used usually in large diameters for heavier
structures. They require annealling with a tightly controlled process and
must be kept frozen until use (or at least refrigerated).
The only codes, and identifying marks you need to know are AD (center
dimple) and A (no mark). The A is pure aluminium and must never be used in
aircraft structure.
Cheers;
Walt
________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________
Time: 06:07:29 PM PST US
From: "Gene Stansbery"
Subject: Re: Yak-List: exhaust wanted
Doug,
Does that include seals and clamps? What about the little donut seals that go
between the exhaust and the engine?
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Sapp
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 11:44 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: exhaust wanted
Gene,
I have them, $1700.00 compete.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gene Stansbery
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 10:21 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: exhaust wanted
Can anyone tell me where I can get a stainless steel exhaust for a CJ with
standard 285 HP engine?
Thanks,
Gene Stansbery
N2278
________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________
Time: 07:13:00 PM PST US
From: Brian Lloyd
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Re: Need Rivet Gun Set
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd
Walter Lannon wrote:
> Brian;
>
> I just can't pass this up. The only rivets you will use on the CJ are
> coded AD (AN470ADx - y or AN426ADx-y where x - dia. and y = length in
> 1/6 increments). These are driven as received, if you attempt to anneal
> them you will
&*$ them up.
> The rivets you are refering to are coded DDand rarely used anymore. They
> are a different alloy and were used usually in large diameters for
> heavier structures. They require annealling with a tightly controlled
> process and must be kept frozen until use (or at least refrigerated).
> The only codes, and identifying marks you need to know are AD (center
> dimple) and A (no mark). The A is pure aluminium and must never be used
> in aircraft structure.
Hmm, I recall we were using 2017-T rivets.
I recall the article in EAASA doing it in a home oven and that is what
we did. It worked and they were a lot easier to drive.
But I was doing this on an RV-4 and not on a CJ6A. I never really
considered the differences in alloy so it may be a problem when riveting
in doublers and the like.
YMMV
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________
Time: 07:35:52 PM PST US
From: "Jeff Linebaugh"
Subject: Yak-List: EP of the Week
Things have been a bit slow lately...so how 'bout this one to spice things
up?
Question of the Week #2
You enter the traffic pattern on a busy Saturday afternoon, and report
downwind to the tower. Tower responds, =93follow the Cessna ahead on downwind
you are #3=94. You put the gear handle down, get three green lights, and
three visual indicators. You check the main air pressure: it is at 32=85
=94hmm, wasn=92t it just at 40?=94
You follow the Cessna and eventually turn on to an extended base leg.
Intercepting a normal glidepath, you put the flap down, and start down.
=93oops=85.now the air is at 22!?=94 Time to fly the airplane; you are now on
final and Tower clears you to land. Back to the air pressure=85. it is now
down to 20. What are you going to do?
Some Points to Consider:
You DO always check air pressure on final, don't you???
What is a likely cause of the air leak?
What is the normal air pressure drop when you extend the gear? flap?
How long would it take to replenish your air supply if you could isolate the
leak?
How long would you trouble-shoot an air/gear malfunction? =85 i.e. what is
the minimum fuel you would want to land with?
Some Suggestions for the next time you fly:
As a review during your preflight, spend a few minutes tracing your gear
retract and extension lines and identify all the components of the gear
system.
Jeff Linebaugh
jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~jefflinebaugh/
CJ-6P N621CJ
Memphis, TN
________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________
Time: 08:32:35 PM PST US
From: JOE HOWSE
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Re: Need Rivet Gun Set
<002a01c5f6e3$8b8119b0$ec1666cf@computer>
--> Yak-List message posted by: JOE HOWSE
Walt
I just knew you would beat me to that one!
Joe
________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________
Time: 09:13:44 PM PST US
From: Drew Blahnick
Subject: Yak-List: RPA E-Coms Improved: New Events
Folks,
In a further improvement of RPA services, the E-Coms (HTML based communication)
is now issued in both HTML and Text, based on your system softtware, you will
get one or the other. However, at the top of either version is a link to view
the full color communication in a seperate web browser that will auto-open
when clicked - if you see only the text version, click this link at the top of
the e-com for the full version. If you don't see any e-coms from the RPA and
you are a current member with the correct email on file (the one you log in to
the website with) then check your emails spam file.
We just issued an event bulletin on the Dec 1st, look for it in your inbox.
It has the first ever imbedded pre-event registration form, a quick link that
allows the event organizer to know who's coming. Even if you registered via the
website, please click the link and use this new simpified system. It's the
duty and obligation of all RPA members to pre-register 100% of the time if they
plan on heading to an event, it saves time and headaches for the organizers
- and you're never penalized for not showing up.
The By-Law vote is 175 for and 2 against, we need 66% of the active membership
to vote and we are about 11% short. All 175 voted using the new E-Vote system
accessed either via one of the 3 bylaw e-coms that went out or via the link
on the website. This system saved us many volunteer manhours - always respond
to RPA E-Coms calling for you to click a link to vote or register for an event
you're heading to...
Harry (BoD member, NE) has volunteered to manage the By-Law election phone call
campaign that will be used to secure the remainder of members votes.
As soon as this is done, we will hold the regional board elections as is required
by these By-Laws.
If you would like to run in your regional seat on the board, please email me,
Ira, Dee Grimm (VP) or anyone on the board. I have the original nominees, but
with the new regional system, the nomination window is open for a short period,
please let us know!
Thanks for listening,
Drew Blahnick
RPA President
---------------------------------
---------------------------------
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<004f01c5f723$e5745690$6501a8c0@Computer>
| Subject: | Re: EP of the Week |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@email.net>
Does the emergency air in a CJ interconnect to the main air supply, or
does it ONLY blow the gear down?
Opening the emergency line wouldn't supply air to the brakes, would it?
Jon
> My reply is based on Yak 52's, but may also apply to CJ6's.
> What is a likely cause of the air leak?
>
> The leak is most likely caused by an undercarriage actuator seal leaking.
> If air continues to leak out of the gear handle, don't assume you have a
> bad gear handle. It is most likely a seal leaking in one of the
> undercarriage actuators.
>
> What is the normal air pressure drop when you extend the gear?
>
> Expect about 4, maybe 5 ATM's. flap? Expect about 2, possibly 3 ATM's.
>
> How long would it take to replenish your air supply if you could isolate
> the leak?
>
> Under normal circumstances, it will take 20 minutes (possibly a little
> longer, which is also normal) to replenish the main air tank to 50 ATM if
> the air pressure is at 20 ATM's.
>
> How long would you trouble-shoot an air/gear malfunction? With 20 ATM's
> and on short final, I would not try trouble shooting an air/gear
> malfunction. The gear is already down and locked and therefore no air
> pressure is required to maintain the actuators in the down and locked
> position. The only thing you need air for is to stop the airplane. So
> slow down and land as close to the threshold as practical; roll out and
> use brakes only to make the turn off the runway. Now here is an
> alternative that one might consider. Since the undercarriage is
> indicating DOWN AND LOCKED and we know we don't need air to keep the
> undercarriage in the locked position, one could consider opening the
> emergency air valve while rolling out just to have air pressure to brake
> the airplane. Once again, since the gear is already down and locked, we
> don't have to worry about "blowing" the gear down. Assume for a moment
> that we've accomplished a safe landing and we're rolling out on the runway
> and we see the MAIN air pressure continue to drop to now about 10 ATM's.
> Yes, we have a leak, but if we make 50 or so ATM's available for the
> brakes via the emergency system (yes, the emergency air would also leak
> out because it also goes to the actuators), based on the time it took to
> leak down the main system, we would have adequate air to stop the airplane
> and turn off the runway.
>
>
> . i.e. what is the minimum fuel you would want to land with?
>
> Not applicable to this scenario since we decided to proceed with the
> landing.
>
>
> Dennis
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeff Linebaugh
> To: yak-list@matronics. com
> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 9:35 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: EP of the Week
>
>
> Things have been a bit slow lately...so how 'bout this one to
> spice things up?
>
> Question of the Week #2
>
>
> You enter the traffic pattern on a busy Saturday afternoon, and
> report downwind to the tower. Tower responds, "follow the Cessna
> ahead on downwind, you are #3". You put the gear handle down, get
> three green lights, and three visual indicators. You check the
> main air pressure: it is at 32.."hmm, wasn't it just at 40?"
>
>
> You follow the Cessna and eventually turn on to an extended base
> leg. Intercepting a normal glidepath, you put the flap down, and
> start down. "oops..now the air is at 22!?" Time to fly the
> airplane; you are now on final and Tower clears you to land. Back
> to the air pressure.. it is now down to 20. What are you going to
> do?
>
>
> Some Points to Consider:
>
> You DO always check air pressure on final, don't you???
>
> What is a likely cause of the air leak?
>
> What is the normal air pressure drop when you extend the gear?
> flap?
>
> How long would it take to replenish your air supply if you could
> isolate the leak?
>
> How long would you trouble-shoot an air/gear malfunction? . i.e.
> what is the minimum fuel you would want to land with?
>
>
> Some Suggestions for the next time you fly:
>
> As a review during your preflight, spend a few minutes tracing
> your gear retract and extension lines and identify all the
> components of the gear system.
>
>
> Jeff Linebaugh
> jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~jefflinebaugh/
> CJ-6P N621CJ
> Memphis, TN
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: EP of the Week |
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese@elmore.rr.com>
Although I am not a CJ expert, I think it would be foolish to design an
emergency system to blow the gear down in an emergency and not have air to
stop the darn thing once you've landed. The Yak's emergency system does
both. However, (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong), I
believe the CJ's compressor does recharge the emergency system. Whereas on
the Yak it does not.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Boede" <jon@email.net>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: EP of the Week
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@email.net>
>
> Does the emergency air in a CJ interconnect to the main air supply, or
> does it ONLY blow the gear down?
>
> Opening the emergency line wouldn't supply air to the brakes, would it?
>
> Jon
>
>> My reply is based on Yak 52's, but may also apply to CJ6's.
>> What is a likely cause of the air leak?
>>
>> The leak is most likely caused by an undercarriage actuator seal leaking.
>> If air continues to leak out of the gear handle, don't assume you have a
>> bad gear handle. It is most likely a seal leaking in one of the
>> undercarriage actuators.
>>
>> What is the normal air pressure drop when you extend the gear?
>>
>> Expect about 4, maybe 5 ATM's. flap? Expect about 2, possibly 3 ATM's.
>>
>> How long would it take to replenish your air supply if you could isolate
>> the leak?
>>
>> Under normal circumstances, it will take 20 minutes (possibly a little
>> longer, which is also normal) to replenish the main air tank to 50 ATM if
>> the air pressure is at 20 ATM's.
>>
>> How long would you trouble-shoot an air/gear malfunction? With 20 ATM's
>> and on short final, I would not try trouble shooting an air/gear
>> malfunction. The gear is already down and locked and therefore no air
>> pressure is required to maintain the actuators in the down and locked
>> position. The only thing you need air for is to stop the airplane. So
>> slow down and land as close to the threshold as practical; roll out and
>> use brakes only to make the turn off the runway. Now here is an
>> alternative that one might consider. Since the undercarriage is
>> indicating DOWN AND LOCKED and we know we don't need air to keep the
>> undercarriage in the locked position, one could consider opening the
>> emergency air valve while rolling out just to have air pressure to brake
>> the airplane. Once again, since the gear is already down and locked, we
>> don't have to worry about "blowing" the gear down. Assume for a moment
>> that we've accomplished a safe landing and we're rolling out on the
>> runway
>> and we see the MAIN air pressure continue to drop to now about 10 ATM's.
>> Yes, we have a leak, but if we make 50 or so ATM's available for the
>> brakes via the emergency system (yes, the emergency air would also leak
>> out because it also goes to the actuators), based on the time it took to
>> leak down the main system, we would have adequate air to stop the
>> airplane
>> and turn off the runway.
>>
>>
>>
>> . i.e. what is the minimum fuel you would want to land with?
>>
>> Not applicable to this scenario since we decided to proceed with the
>> landing.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dennis
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Jeff Linebaugh
>> To: yak-list@matronics. com
>> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 9:35 PM
>> Subject: Yak-List: EP of the Week
>>
>>
>> Things have been a bit slow lately...so how 'bout this one to
>> spice things up?
>>
>> Question of the Week #2
>>
>>
>>
>> You enter the traffic pattern on a busy Saturday afternoon, and
>> report downwind to the tower. Tower responds, "follow the Cessna
>> ahead on downwind, you are #3". You put the gear handle down, get
>> three green lights, and three visual indicators. You check the
>> main air pressure: it is at 32.."hmm, wasn't it just at 40?"
>>
>>
>>
>> You follow the Cessna and eventually turn on to an extended base
>> leg. Intercepting a normal glidepath, you put the flap down, and
>> start down. "oops..now the air is at 22!?" Time to fly the
>> airplane; you are now on final and Tower clears you to land. Back
>> to the air pressure.. it is now down to 20. What are you going to
>> do?
>>
>>
>>
>> Some Points to Consider:
>>
>> You DO always check air pressure on final, don't you???
>>
>> What is a likely cause of the air leak?
>>
>> What is the normal air pressure drop when you extend the gear?
>> flap?
>>
>> How long would it take to replenish your air supply if you could
>> isolate the leak?
>>
>> How long would you trouble-shoot an air/gear malfunction? .
>> i.e.
>> what is the minimum fuel you would want to land with?
>>
>>
>>
>> Some Suggestions for the next time you fly:
>>
>> As a review during your preflight, spend a few minutes tracing
>> your gear retract and extension lines and identify all the
>> components of the gear system.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jeff Linebaugh
>> jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~jefflinebaugh/
>> CJ-6P N621CJ
>> Memphis, TN
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: EP of the Week |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Jon Boede wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jon Boede" <jon@email.net>
>
> Does the emergency air in a CJ interconnect to the main air supply, or
> does it ONLY blow the gear down?
>
> Opening the emergency line wouldn't supply air to the brakes, would it?
On the CJ the emergency air is plumbed directly to the gear extension
system but if there is still pressure, it is available for flaps and brakes.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: EP of the Week |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Jeff Linebaugh wrote:
> You enter the traffic pattern on a busy Saturday afternoon, and report
> downwind to the tower. Tower responds, follow the Cessna ahead on
> downwind, you are #3. You put the gear handle down, get three green
> lights, and three visual indicators. You check the main air pressure:
> it is at 32.hmm, wasnt it just at 40?
>
> You follow the Cessna and eventually turn on to an extended base leg.
> Intercepting a normal glidepath, you put the flap down, and start down.
> oops.now the air is at 22!? Time to fly the airplane; you are now on
> final and Tower clears you to land. Back to the air pressure. it is
> now down to 20. What are you going to do?
Man, this is one of those questions for which there is no good answer.
At this point I agree generally with Craig: land and then sort out the
problem. Clearly there is a leak. It is probably in the gear system.
Since there was no leak with the gear and flaps in the up (or neutral)
position the leak is probably with the gear down circuit. This implies
that one could put the gear lever in the neutral position and stop the
leak. But I am generally averse to landing with the gear in neutral even
tho' it is supposed to be locked by the balls in the actuators and by
the over-center linkage.
If I were on a long cross-country final behind the Cessna (you know the
kind, where the other pilot decides to fly downwind a mile from the
airport and then turn base 1.5 miles from the runway, etc.) I would
probably put the gear lever in to neutral to preserve the air I have. On
short final I would probably open the emergency valve to ensure there is
air for braking. Hell, I might just do that anyway since the most likely
culprit is the gear selector valve. (I am guess this because the problem
appeared to occur *before* the flaps were extended.)
BTW, I had this *exact* scenario occur to me during the final landing of
my CFI checkride in my CJ6A. Fortunately I still had 25 Kg/cm
2 on
touchdown and elected to just land and let it be. I did explain the
problem to the FAA examiner in the front seat and asked him to watch the
main air pressure for me as I completed the landing, roll out, and taxi
back. (It was a seal in the flap selector valve.) Since I could hear the
hissing and hear that it stopped when I retracted the flaps (and the
system air pressure increased), I opted to fly the aircraft home.
> Some Points to Consider:
>
> You DO always check air pressure on final, don't you???
Do I get to lie and say yes? It is part of my checklist but I must admit
that, when I am leading a flight, I don't usually check after I make the
break. At that point I am in a continuous 360 turn to final and there
just isn't time put put my head back in the cockpit. OTOH this phase of
light only lasts for a few tens of seconds.
> What is a likely cause of the air leak?
Frankly, anything. The seals in the selector valves seem to be the more
common culprit but I wouldn't bet on anything.
> What is the normal air pressure drop when you extend the gear? flap?
<sigh> I forget. As I recall it is about 5Kg/cm2 and 2Kg/cm2
respectively. I will go back and check next time I fly. I had better
review this as I may have a CJ6A transition student soon.
> How long would it take to replenish your air supply if you could isolate
> the leak?
It depends on altitude. Higher altitudes take a lot longer.
> How long would you trouble-shoot an air/gear malfunction? i.e. what
> is the minimum fuel you would want to land with?
Minimum fuel to land with would be 30 minutes during the day and 45
minutes at night. Since I can make the Huosai burn just under 12 gph in
cruise that would be 6gal or 23L. If the red lights are on in flight,
you probably aren't legal guys.
>
>
>
> Some Suggestions for the next time you fly:
>
> As a review during your preflight, spend a few minutes tracing your gear
> retract and extension lines and identify all the components of the gear
> system.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jeff Linebaugh
> jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net <mailto:jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net>
> /http://home.earthlink.net/~jefflinebaugh//
> /CJ-6P N621CJ/
> /Memphis, TN/
>
>
> <http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=409&lang=9>
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 11
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Can someone point me to a good supplier of decals / vinyl transfers etc. for
the
Chinese national markings?
Tom & Nora Elliott
CASCADE WARBIRDS
CJ-6A NX63727
777 Quartz Ave # 7004
Sandy Valley NV 89019
Home 702-723-1223
Fax 702-723-1243
Cell 702-595-2680 Tom
Cell 702-808-1316 Nora
Message 12
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These guys did mine.
Screaming Aero Graphix
5300 E Silver Springs Blvd, Silver Springs, FL
(352) 236-6333
On 12/2/05, N13472@aol.com <N13472@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Can someone point me to a good supplier of decals / vinyl transfers etc. for
> the
> Chinese national markings?
>
>
> Tom & Nora Elliott
> CASCADE WARBIRDS
> CJ-6A NX63727
> 777 Quartz Ave # 7004
> Sandy Valley NV 89019
> Home 702-723-1223
> Fax 702-723-1243
> Cell 702-595-2680 Tom
> Cell 702-808-1316 Nora
Message 13
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These guys did mine.
Screaming Aero Graphix
5300 E Silver Springs Blvd, Silver Springs, FL
(352) 236-6333
On 12/2/05, N13472@aol.com <N13472@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Can someone point me to a good supplier of decals / vinyl transfers etc. for
> the
> Chinese national markings?
>
>
> Tom & Nora Elliott
> CASCADE WARBIRDS
> CJ-6A NX63727
> 777 Quartz Ave # 7004
> Sandy Valley NV 89019
> Home 702-723-1223
> Fax 702-723-1243
> Cell 702-595-2680 Tom
> Cell 702-808-1316 Nora
Message 14
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Gene,
The stainless steel systems I got in last time had the clamps all messed up,
some clamps were missing and some were duplications. The short story is
that the numbers of clamps was correct but the sizes of clamps was not
correct. I can make up what I don't have in SS by substituting new
standard steel clamps and I will replace them with SS for you later when I
get it all sorted out with the Chinese. About the exhaust donuts, no it
does not include them, but I think Geo Coy has them in his inventory. I
have never been able to find the donuts in China.
Please contact me off list......By the way, what has happened to the list??
It's changed, there is now no posting of the senders email address, only his
name. This will only tend to add more traffic to the list, not good Matt.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gene Stansbery
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 6:07 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: exhaust wanted
Doug,
Does that include seals and clamps? What about the little donut seals
that go between the exhaust and the engine?
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Sapp
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 11:44 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: exhaust wanted
Gene,
I have them, $1700.00 compete.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gene Stansbery
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 10:21 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: exhaust wanted
Can anyone tell me where I can get a stainless steel exhaust for a CJ
with standard 285 HP engine?
Thanks,
Gene Stansbery
N2278
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: exhaust wanted |
wemember what Confucius say - "Keep eye on donut and not on hole! Bery appropriate
throughout ones life." -)
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Sapp
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 5:40 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: exhaust wanted
Gene,
The stainless steel systems I got in last time had the clamps all messed up,
some clamps were missing and some were duplications. The short story is that
the numbers of clamps was correct but the sizes of clamps was not correct. I
can make up what I don't have in SS by substituting new standard steel clamps
and I will replace them with SS for you later when I get it all sorted out with
the Chinese. About the exhaust donuts, no it does not include them, but I
think Geo Coy has them in his inventory. I have never been able to find the
donuts in China.
Please contact me off list......By the way, what has happened to the list??
It's changed, there is now no posting of the senders email address, only his name.
This will only tend to add more traffic to the list, not good Matt.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gene Stansbery
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 6:07 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: exhaust wanted
Doug,
Does that include seals and clamps? What about the little donut seals that
go between the exhaust and the engine?
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Sapp
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 11:44 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: exhaust wanted
Gene,
I have them, $1700.00 compete.
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gene Stansbery
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 10:21 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: exhaust wanted
Can anyone tell me where I can get a stainless steel exhaust for a CJ with
standard 285 HP engine?
Thanks,
Gene Stansbery
N2278
Message 16
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--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Doug Sapp wrote:
> Please contact me off list......By the way, what has happened to the
> list?? It's changed, there is now no posting of the senders email
> address, only his name. This will only tend to add more traffic to the
> list, not good Matt.
I can understand why Matt did that. Spammers are picking up our
addresses from the list. I am starting to get SPAM addressed to
brian-yak. I expected this to happen so brian-yak is a throw-away
address that I can change whenever I want but that is not the case for
everyone.
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 17
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| Subject: | Russian Airshow pix |
--> Yak-List message posted by: Walt Murphy <waltmurphy@charter.net>
Good photo's I thought you might enjoy,
Walt
**http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/Maks2005/Highlights/**
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