Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:23 AM - Some RedStar Video from Sun-n-Fun (David McGirt)
2. 09:19 AM - Hanscomb / KBED (Ira Saligman)
3. 10:24 AM - formation landing bump (Terry Lewis)
4. 10:53 AM - Re: Tragic Loss (Barry Hancock)
5. 11:12 AM - Fw: CJ-6 50th Anniversary (cjpilot710@aol.com)
6. 01:19 PM - Re: Tragic Loss (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
7. 01:53 PM - Re: Tragic Loss (cjpilot710@aol.com)
8. 02:00 PM - AirVenture 2008 CJ-6 50th Anniversary Oshkosh. (cjpilot710@aol.com)
9. 03:05 PM - OSH 2008 (cjpilot710@aol.com)
10. 03:08 PM - Re: Tragic Loss (doug sapp)
11. 03:44 PM - Re: Tragic Loss (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
12. 04:04 PM - Re: Tragic Loss (b747crew2003@aol.com)
13. 04:42 PM - Re: Tragic Loss (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
14. 07:00 PM - Re: Tragic Loss (Roger Kemp M.D.)
15. 07:20 PM - Re: OSH 2008 (Roger Kemp M.D.)
16. 08:14 PM - Re: Fw: L/D redux (Walter Lannon)
17. 08:33 PM - Re: Tragic Loss (cjpilot710@aol.com)
18. 10:26 PM - Lubrication of Gills and regulating ring (Royden Heays)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Some RedStar Video from Sun-n-Fun |
If you watch this video segment on ICAS , you will catch several shots of
the RedStar=B9s at Sun-n-Fun ( the Red Thunder team flying with the DC-3, th
e
warbird show, and Alex Land flying a solo acro show in a CJ-6 at Sun-n-Fun
)
Enjoy
<a
href="http://www.aero-tv.net/index.cfm?videoid=3880fed8-6a2a-45ec-a048-119a
b
e84e922">
<img src="http://www.aero-tv.net/images/ann_tv.jpg">Aero-TV:Airshows 2008:
ICAS' 'Air Boss' John Cudahy Talks With Aero-TV (Part Two)</a>
Message 2
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Is anyone familiar with Hanscomb Field in Boston?
If so, please call or email me back directly as I only get the Yaklist
Digest
THanks
Ira
o 610 940 0420
c 610 324 5500
f 215 243 7699
<mailto:isaligman@Saligman.com> isaligman@Saligman.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | formation landing bump |
The NTSB reports that a Hurricane and a Spitfire made contact during an
air show formation landing at GLS, Galveston ,Texas on o4/26/08. The
cause seems to be a brake failure of the lead a/c.
The aircraft were substantially damaged.
The pilots were uninjured.
Be careful out there.
Terry Lewis
Message 4
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On May 6, 2008, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:
> I am sorry to have to report the death of Patrick Debonne, one of
> the top
> air show pilots in France, flying a Yak-54. It would seem that he had
> engine failure and a forced landing and then a fire but I have no more
> information at the moment.
>
> Richard
That is sad. Gang, are we noticing anything here? We do not have
any details here, but this is the 3rd power loss and resultant fatal
crash in our community in recent months. Wasn't Sergei's crash an
engine failure too?
When was the last time we practiced our EP's? Better yet, when was
the last time you rehearsed them in your head?
Our equipment is so reliable it lulls us into complacency and puts at
disregard the life and death matters of those few vital seconds and
critical decisions that need to be instinctive in that time that
could well spell the difference between a favorable and unfavorable
outcome. I, for one, don't rehearse as often as I should...
On this note we are having a Emergency Procedures seminar at All Red
Star (May 14-18). This takes recent real life accounts of engine
failures (Bill Blackwell is going to tell his story) and combines
them with an emergency egress and crash survival seminar by former
USN Survival Training Specialist Noah Graeme. Hopefully this will
get us thinking about the things we often conveniently ignore most of
the time...
Barry
PS There is still time to register for All Red Star at http://
www.flyredstar.org/helios//events/index.php?com=detail&eID=18
Message 5
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| Subject: | Fwd: CJ-6 50th Anniversary |
----_=_NextPart_001_01C8B05F.6EC3121E--
Message 6
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Sergei Boriak's crash was not from engine failure, even though he had a
rather extensively modified M-14PF, it was running like a sewing
machine. Just wanted to clear the air on that fact.
One thing more I would like to relate for folks who might be interested.
I was flying my 50 over the Outer Banks of North Carolina a few weeks
ago when the engine just stopped dead cold for a short period of time...
Probably no more than 5 - 10 seconds. However it was enough time to
check fuel level, pressure, oil pressure, pump the primer and system
pressure a few times quickly, and then it was time to pick a place to
land on the beach. As I was looking, the engine started running again,
but rather badly. Some stumbles and surges, but enough power to keep
flying. I took a chance and headed out over water directly for the
closest airport. As I got over MRH airport, with it safely made, I
decided to check the one thing I had not to this point. The MAGS. When
I selected one mag, the engine started booming and banging horribly. I
immediately switched to the other mag which ran really well, but with an
occasional miss. The end of the story is that I climbed to 15,000 feet,
and then glided back to New Bern North Carolina with no further
problems.
The left mag was bad. I do not know what in it was bad. The right mag
had failed about 100 hours earlier with sheared internal gearing. It
just went Tango Uniform with no other indications. Found it on engine
run up. THIS MAG however, did something I have never experienced
before. It made the whole engine STOP .... Which makes NO sense to
me... And then whatever it was "changed" to where the engine then RAN
... Albeit pretty damn badly. How can this happen with two mags? It's
beyond me, but it happened.
The left mag was completely bad. The right mag had one intermittent
spark plug wire. Everything has been changed, engine runs perfectly
now.
So.. The left mag failed within 100 hours of the right mag failing. The
engine has about 780 hours on it.
Just something to consider along with everything else.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 13:51
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Tragic Loss
On May 6, 2008, at 11:58 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:
I am sorry to have to report the death of Patrick Debonne, one
of the top
air show pilots in France, flying a Yak-54. It would seem that
he had
engine failure and a forced landing and then a fire but I have
no more
information at the moment.
Richard
That is sad. Gang, are we noticing anything here? We do not have any
details here, but this is the 3rd power loss and resultant fatal crash
in our community in recent months. Wasn't Sergei's crash an engine
failure too?
When was the last time we practiced our EP's? Better yet, when was the
last time you rehearsed them in your head?
Our equipment is so reliable it lulls us into complacency and puts at
disregard the life and death matters of those few vital seconds and
critical decisions that need to be instinctive in that time that could
well spell the difference between a favorable and unfavorable outcome.
I, for one, don't rehearse as often as I should...
On this note we are having a Emergency Procedures seminar at All Red
Star (May 14-18). This takes recent real life accounts of engine
failures (Bill Blackwell is going to tell his story) and combines them
with an emergency egress and crash survival seminar by former USN
Survival Training Specialist Noah Graeme. Hopefully this will get us
thinking about the things we often conveniently ignore most of the
time...
Barry
PS There is still time to register for All Red Star at
http://www.flyredstar.org/helios//events/index.php?com=detail&eID=18
Message 7
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In a message dated 5/7/2008 4:21:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E" _mark.bitterlich@navy.mil_ (mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil)
I had a very similar happening. It turned out to be a missing Woodruff key
on the rotor shaft. The mag was a Chinese mag that I was using on my M-14p
at the time. The mag had 250+ hours since its "overhaul". The only thing
that had been holding the gear in place on the shaft was the nut and its lock
washer. My engine didn't totally quite although I thought it was going to.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
Sergei Boriak's crash was not from engine failure, even though he had a
rather extensively modified M-14PF, it was running like a sewing
machine. Just wanted to clear the air on that fact.
One thing more I would like to relate for folks who might be interested.
I was flying my 50 over the Outer Banks of North Carolina a few weeks
ago when the engine just stopped dead cold for a short period of time...
Probably no more than 5 - 10 seconds. However it was enough time to
check fuel level, pressure, oil pressure, pump the primer and system
pressure a few times quickly, and then it was time to pick a place to
land on the beach. As I was looking, the engine started running again,
but rather badly. Some stumbles and surges, but enough power to keep
flying. I took a chance and headed out over water directly for the
closest airport. As I got over MRH airport, with it safely made, I
decided to check the one thing I had not to this point. The MAGS. When
I selected one mag, the engine started booming and banging horribly. I
immediately switched to the other mag which ran really well, but with an
occasional miss. The end of the story is that I climbed to 15,000 feet,
and then glided back to New Bern North Carolina with no further
problems.
The left mag was bad. I do not know what in it was bad. The right mag
had failed about 100 hours earlier with sheared internal gearing. It
just went Tango Uniform with no other indications. Found it on engine
run up. THIS MAG however, did something I have never experienced
before. It made the whole engine STOP .... Which makes NO sense to
me... And then whatever it was "changed" to where the engine then RAN
... Albeit pretty damn badly. How can this happen with two mags? It's
beyond me, but it happened.
The left mag was completely bad. The right mag had one intermittent
spark plug wire. Everything has been changed, engine runs perfectly
now.
So.. The left mag failed within 100 hours of the right mag failing. The
engine has about 780 hours on it.
Just something to consider along with everything else.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
Message 8
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| Subject: | AirVenture 2008 CJ-6 50th Anniversary Oshkosh. |
Troops,
It hard to believe but there are just 77 days left to AirVenture 2008 and
the 50th Anniversary celebration of the CJ-6 at Oshkosh.
Plans are forming up and the two dozen or so volunteers are putting things
in order. Things like a special, one of kind, commemorative coin. One of a
kind commemorative shirt. . We'll be presenting an oil painting by one of
our very talented members to the EAA Warbird Museum. Even a special hat.
We're going to have a Pig Roast. Our own catered banquet with awards and a
quest speaker. Also forums and Crud matches.
If you want to stay in the dorms with the rest of the group, you need to
call for registration VERY SOON! The number is 920-424-3226. Sarah Klein is
in charge at the UoW. Make sure you tell them you want bunk with the RPA or
RedStar Pilots Association. I understand we'll most likely be in the same
building they usually put all the Aussies. That will be worth the trip just for
that. The rate is $50/ night and we'll be having our own buses to and from
the school right to our aircraft.
The whole experience starts at West Bend (KETB), WI. on Thursday July 24th
where we'll have formation warm ups. We're staying at the West Bend
Americinn and the number there is 262-334-0307 for reservations. Again tell
them
you're with RPA for a discount.
If you can't make the whole experience at ETB, we'll be departing there on
Monday the 28th for the Warbird Show Arrival. You can catch up at ETB or go
right to OSH. Remember Monday is a show day. Please be in by Tuesday because
Wednesday, Friday and Saturday are our big days.
I am still trying to figure what will be needed for an event fee. Our very
generous sponsors, XIOCOM, Worldwide Warbirds, Cannon, and
Windstar/NEXUS, have been very supportive and as a result it looks like we need
to charge
something around $75.00. We even got a bunch of lawyers to help pay for our
big 40 by 40 tent! By the way we are still looking for more sponsors.
So far we have 71 aircraft signed up! That includes 17 Yaks. 130 members.
Yep gang, we are going to have a real "presents".
If you haven't signed up and are planning on going, head over to the RPA web
site _http://www.flyredstar.org/_ (http://www.flyredstar.org/) and signup.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
Message 9
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Troops,
This is just for those RPA members who are definitely going to OSH.
We need a CJ-6 and a Yak 52. Clean, neat, and standard. These airplanes
will be parked separate from the rest of us, in the "Warbird Trainer" area for
the entire week. Here the aircraft are 'front and center' for spectators to
ogle and ask lots of questions.
If you plan to attend OSH but will not fly in the shows or at all (what a
bummer), we'd be interest if you would like you plane to be used for that. No
"For Sale" signs. These airplanes are for exhibition only.
If you don't mind letting your beast get ogled at, please e-mail me a
picture of the airplane, your name and number stuff.
BTW we're going to need well informed (on CJs and Yaks) volunteers to answer
questions from spectators. This is usually done in 2 hour shifts from 9 or
10 am until show time. There will be info boards next to each aircraft also.
You guys know these airplanes are chick magnets right?
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
Message 10
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Mark,
You might be a victim of the Russian and Chinese for that matter, overhaul
system in which they just look at a part and make a decision rather or not
in their opinion the part will last another 500 hours. Hal Provo just
bought a M14P that had absolutly trash on it for mags and it was a fresh
overhaul. Of course if your engine is "since new" and the mag numbers match
those in the back of the engine log it's a different story. Personally if
I install a overhauled engine in my aircraft the first thig I do is change
out the mags for factory new ones. In my opinion @ $750.00 each it's the
best money I can spend.
On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 1:51 PM, <cjpilot710@aol.com> wrote:
> In a message dated 5/7/2008 4:21:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
>
> MALS-14 64E" mark.bitterlich@navy.mil
>
> I had a very similar happening. It turned out to be a missing Woodruff
> key on the rotor shaft. The mag was a Chinese mag that I was using on my
> M-14p at the time. The mag had 250+ hours since its "overhaul". The only
> thing that had been holding the gear in place on the shaft was the nut and
> its lock washer. My engine didn't totally quite although I thought it was
> going to.
>
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
>
> Sergei Boriak's crash was not from engine failure, even though he had a
> rather extensively modified M-14PF, it was running like a sewing
> machine. Just wanted to clear the air on that fact.
>
> One thing more I would like to relate for folks who might be interested.
> I was flying my 50 over the Outer Banks of North Carolina a few weeks
> ago when the engine just stopped dead cold for a short period of time...
> Probably no more than 5 - 10 seconds. However it was enough time to
> check fuel level, pressure, oil pressure, pump the primer and system
> pressure a few times quickly, and then it was time to pick a place to
> land on the beach. As I was looking, the engine started running again,
> but rather badly. Some stumbles and surges, but enough power to keep
> flying. I took a chance and headed out over water directly for the
> closest airport. As I got over MRH airport, with it safely made, I
> decided to check the one thing I had not to this point. The MAGS. When
> I selected one mag, the engine started booming and banging horribly. I
> immediately switched to the other mag which ran really well, but with an
> occasional miss. The end of the story is that I climbed to 15,000 feet,
> and then glided back to New Bern North Carolina with no further
> problems.
>
> The left mag was bad. I do not know what in it was bad. The right mag
> had failed about 100 hours earlier with sheared internal gearing. It
> just went Tango Uniform with no other indications. Found it on engine
> run up. THIS MAG however, did something I have never experienced
> before. It made the whole engine STOP .... Which makes NO sense to
> me... And then whatever it was "changed" to where the engine then RAN
> ... Albeit pretty damn badly. How can this happen with two mags? It's
> beyond me, but it happened.
>
> The left mag was completely bad. The right mag had one intermittent
> spark plug wire. Everything has been changed, engine runs perfectly
> now.
>
> So.. The left mag failed within 100 hours of the right mag failing. The
> engine has about 780 hours on it.
>
> Just something to consider along with everything else.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
> N50YK
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at
> AOL Food <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>.
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
Message 11
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Thanks all for your thoughtful inputs. I have benefited from reading
your thoughts and experiences.
Doug... My mags were "since new". My engine is a "first run" and I have
the logs. Your thoughts on mag replacement seems to be very well
founded. Lesson learned on my part.
Mark Bitterlich
P.s. Interesting thought on the woodruff key as well Pappy. I am
trying to think how I could check that easily.. But without removing
that bottom adjustment assy., I can't think how! Can you SEE it? I am
going home tonight and check!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 18:06
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Tragic Loss
Mark,
You might be a victim of the Russian and Chinese for that matter,
overhaul system in which they just look at a part and make a decision
rather or not in their opinion the part will last another 500 hours.
Hal Provo just bought a M14P that had absolutly trash on it for mags and
it was a fresh overhaul. Of course if your engine is "since new" and
the mag numbers match those in the back of the engine log it's a
different story. Personally if I install a overhauled engine in my
aircraft the first thig I do is change out the mags for factory new
ones. In my opinion @ $750.00 each it's the best money I can spend.
On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 1:51 PM, <cjpilot710@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 5/7/2008 4:21:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" mark.bitterlich@navy.mil
I had a very similar happening. It turned out to be a missing
Woodruff key on the rotor shaft. The mag was a Chinese mag that I was
using on my M-14p at the time. The mag had 250+ hours since its
"overhaul". The only thing that had been holding the gear in place on
the shaft was the nut and its lock washer. My engine didn't totally
quite although I thought it was going to.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
Sergei Boriak's crash was not from engine failure, even
though he had a
rather extensively modified M-14PF, it was running like
a sewing
machine. Just wanted to clear the air on that fact.
One thing more I would like to relate for folks who
might be interested.
I was flying my 50 over the Outer Banks of North
Carolina a few weeks
ago when the engine just stopped dead cold for a short
period of time...
Probably no more than 5 - 10 seconds. However it was
enough time to
check fuel level, pressure, oil pressure, pump the
primer and system
pressure a few times quickly, and then it was time to
pick a place to
land on the beach. As I was looking, the engine started
running again,
but rather badly. Some stumbles and surges, but enough
power to keep
flying. I took a chance and headed out over water
directly for the
closest airport. As I got over MRH airport, with it
safely made, I
decided to check the one thing I had not to this point.
The MAGS. When
I selected one mag, the engine started booming and
banging horribly. I
immediately switched to the other mag which ran really
well, but with an
occasional miss. The end of the story is that I climbed
to 15,000 feet,
and then glided back to New Bern North Carolina with no
further
problems.
The left mag was bad. I do not know what in it was bad.
The right mag
had failed about 100 hours earlier with sheared internal
gearing. It
just went Tango Uniform with no other indications.
Found it on engine
run up. THIS MAG however, did something I have never
experienced
before. It made the whole engine STOP .... Which makes
NO sense to
me... And then whatever it was "changed" to where the
engine then RAN
... Albeit pretty damn badly. How can this happen with
two mags? It's
beyond me, but it happened.
The left mag was completely bad. The right mag had one
intermittent
spark plug wire. Everything has been changed, engine
runs perfectly
now.
So.. The left mag failed within 100 hours of the right
mag failing. The
engine has about 780 hours on it.
Just something to consider along with everything else.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
________________________________
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> .
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
Message 12
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That stuff will get your ass tight enough to make a diamond.=C2-
=C2-Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com>
Sent: Wed, 7 May 2008 6:05 pm
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Tragic Loss
Mark,
You might be a victim of the Russian and Chinese for that matter, overhaul s
ystem in which they just look at a part and make a decision rather or not in
their opinion the part will last another 500 hours.=C2- Hal Provo just bo
ught a M14P that had absolutly trash on it for mags and=C2-it was a fresh
overhaul.=C2- Of course if your engine is "since new" and the mag numbers
match those in the back of the engine log it's a different story.=C2- =C2
-Personally if I install a overhauled engine in my aircraft the first thig
I do is change out the mags for factory new ones.=C2- In my opinion @ $75
0.00 each it's the best money I can spend.
=C2-
=C2-
On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 1:51 PM, <cjpilot710@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 5/7/2008 4:21:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mark.bitterl
ich@navy.mil writes:
LS-14 64E" mark.bitterlich@navy.mil
I had a very similar happening.=C2- It turned out to be a missing Woodruff
key on the rotor shaft.=C2- The mag was a Chinese mag that I was using on
my M-14p at the time.=C2- The mag had 250+ hours since its "overhaul".
=C2- The only thing that had been holding the gear in place on the shaft w
as the nut and its lock washer.=C2- My engine didn't totally quite althoug
h I thought it was going to.
=C2-
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
Sergei Boriak's crash was not from engine failure, even though he had a
rather extensively modified M-14PF, it was running like a sewing
machine.=C2- Just wanted to clear the air on that fact.
One thing more I would like to relate for folks who might be interested.
I was flying my 50 over the Outer Banks of North Carolina a few weeks
ago when the engine just stopped dead cold for a short period of time...
Probably no more than 5 - 10 seconds.=C2- However it was enough time to
check fuel level, pressure, oil pressure, pump the primer and system
pressure a few times quickly, and then it was time to pick a place to
land on the beach.=C2- As I was looking, the engine started running again,
but rather badly.=C2- Some stumbles and surges, but enough power to keep
flying.=C2- I took a chance and headed out over water directly for the
closest airport.=C2- As I got over MRH airport, with it safely made, I
decided to check the one thing I had not to this point.=C2- The MAGS.=C2
- When
I selected one mag, the engine started booming and banging horribly.=C2- I
immediately switched to the other mag which ran really well, but with an
occasional miss.=C2- The end of the story is that I climbed to 15,000 feet
,
and then glided back to New Bern North Carolina with no further
problems.
The left mag was bad.=C2- I do not know what in it was bad.=C2- The righ
t mag
had failed about 100 hours earlier with sheared internal gearing.=C2- It
just went Tango Uniform with no other indications.=C2- Found it on engine
run up.=C2- THIS MAG however, did something I have never experienced
before.=C2- It made the whole engine STOP .... Which makes NO sense to
me... And then whatever it was "changed" to where the engine then RAN
... Albeit pretty damn badly. How can this happen with two mags?=C2- It's
beyond me, but it happened.=C2-=C2-
The left mag was completely bad.=C2- The right mag had one intermittent
spark plug wire.=C2- Everything has been changed, engine runs perfectly
now.=C2-
So.. The left mag failed within 100 hours of the right mag failing.=C2- Th
e
engine has about 780 hours on it.=C2-=C2-
Just something to consider along with everything else.=C2-
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at A
OL Food.
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
Message 13
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I neglected to add that part.
Yes... Turning away from land (even though it was nothing but sand
dunes) to fly over rough cold water, with no boats in sight, at 100
feet, barely keeping altitude with an engine slinging M-80's every few
seconds did indeed negate the need for toilet paper for quite some time.
Thank you Jesus.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK (happy to say)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
b747crew2003@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 18:58
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Tragic Loss
That stuff will get your ass tight enough to make a diamond.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com>
Sent: Wed, 7 May 2008 6:05 pm
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Tragic Loss
Mark,
You might be a victim of the Russian and Chinese for that matter,
overhaul system in which they just look at a part and make a decision
rather or not in their opinion the part will last another 500 hours.
Hal Provo just bought a M14P that had absolutly trash on it for mags and
it was a fresh overhaul. Of course if your engine is "since new" and
the mag numbers match those in the back of the engine log it's a
different story. Personally if I install a overhauled engine in my
aircraft the first thig I do is change out the mags for factory new
ones. In my opinion @ $750.00 each it's the best money I can spend.
On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 1:51 PM, <cjpilot710@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 5/7/2008 4:21:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" mark.bitterlich@navy.mil
I had a very similar happening. It turned out to be a missing
Woodruff key on the rotor shaft. The mag was a Chinese mag that I was
using on my M-14p at the time. The mag had 250+ hours since its
"overhaul". The only thing that had been holding the gear in place on
the shaft was the nut and its lock washer. My engine didn't totally
quite although I thought it was going to.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
Sergei Boriak's crash was not from engine failure, even
though he had a
rather extensively modified M-14PF, it was running like
a sewing
machine. Just wanted to clear the air on that fact.
One thing more I would like to relate for folks who
might be interested.
I was flying my 50 over the Outer Banks of North
Carolina a few weeks
ago when the engine just stopped dead cold for a short
period of time...
Probably no more than 5 - 10 seconds. However it was
enough time to
check fuel level, pressure, oil pressure, pump the
primer and system
pressure a few times quickly, and then it was time to
pick a place to
land on the beach. As I was looking, the engine started
running again,
but rather badly. Some stumbles and surges, but enough
power to keep
flying. I took a chance and headed out over water
directly for the
closest airport. As I got over MRH airport, with it
safely made, I
decided to check the one thing I had not to this point.
The MAGS. When
I selected one mag, the engine started booming and
banging horribly. I
immediately switched to the other mag which ran really
well, but with an
occasional miss. The end of the story is that I climbed
to 15,000 feet,
and then glided back to New Bern North Carolina with no
further
problems.
The left mag was bad. I do not know what in it was bad.
The right mag
had failed about 100 hours earlier with sheared internal
gearing. It
just went Tango Uniform with no other indications.
Found it on engine
run up. THIS MAG however, did something I have never
experienced
before. It made the whole engine STOP .... Which makes
NO sense to
me... And then whatever it was "changed" to where the
engine then RAN
... Albeit pretty damn badly. How can this happen with
two mags? It's
beyond me, but it happened.
The left mag was completely bad. The right mag had one
intermittent
spark plug wire. Everything has been changed, engine
runs perfectly
now.
So.. The left mag failed within 100 hours of the right
mag failing. The
engine has about 780 hours on it.
Just something to consider along with everything else.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
________________________________
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> .
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
or?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
p://forums.matronics.com
ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________
Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com
<http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> : America's #1
Mapping Site.
Message 14
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Went down that the road with a bad mag too! It is never fun to turn away
from the runway to get landing spacing!
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:40 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Tragic Loss
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I neglected to add that part.
Yes... Turning away from land (even though it was nothing but sand
dunes) to fly over rough cold water, with no boats in sight, at 100
feet, barely keeping altitude with an engine slinging M-80's every few
seconds did indeed negate the need for toilet paper for quite some time.
Thank you Jesus.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK (happy to say)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
b747crew2003@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 18:58
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Tragic Loss
That stuff will get your ass tight enough to make a diamond.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com>
Sent: Wed, 7 May 2008 6:05 pm
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Tragic Loss
Mark,
You might be a victim of the Russian and Chinese for that matter,
overhaul system in which they just look at a part and make a decision
rather or not in their opinion the part will last another 500 hours.
Hal Provo just bought a M14P that had absolutly trash on it for mags and
it was a fresh overhaul. Of course if your engine is "since new" and
the mag numbers match those in the back of the engine log it's a
different story. Personally if I install a overhauled engine in my
aircraft the first thig I do is change out the mags for factory new
ones. In my opinion @ $750.00 each it's the best money I can spend.
On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 1:51 PM, <cjpilot710@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 5/7/2008 4:21:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" mark.bitterlich@navy.mil
I had a very similar happening. It turned out to be a missing
Woodruff key on the rotor shaft. The mag was a Chinese mag that I was
using on my M-14p at the time. The mag had 250+ hours since its
"overhaul". The only thing that had been holding the gear in place on
the shaft was the nut and its lock washer. My engine didn't totally
quite although I thought it was going to.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
Sergei Boriak's crash was not from engine failure, even
though he had a
rather extensively modified M-14PF, it was running like
a sewing
machine. Just wanted to clear the air on that fact.
One thing more I would like to relate for folks who
might be interested.
I was flying my 50 over the Outer Banks of North
Carolina a few weeks
ago when the engine just stopped dead cold for a short
period of time...
Probably no more than 5 - 10 seconds. However it was
enough time to
check fuel level, pressure, oil pressure, pump the
primer and system
pressure a few times quickly, and then it was time to
pick a place to
land on the beach. As I was looking, the engine started
running again,
but rather badly. Some stumbles and surges, but enough
power to keep
flying. I took a chance and headed out over water
directly for the
closest airport. As I got over MRH airport, with it
safely made, I
decided to check the one thing I had not to this point.
The MAGS. When
I selected one mag, the engine started booming and
banging horribly. I
immediately switched to the other mag which ran really
well, but with an
occasional miss. The end of the story is that I climbed
to 15,000 feet,
and then glided back to New Bern North Carolina with no
further
problems.
The left mag was bad. I do not know what in it was bad.
The right mag
had failed about 100 hours earlier with sheared internal
gearing. It
just went Tango Uniform with no other indications.
Found it on engine
run up. THIS MAG however, did something I have never
experienced
before. It made the whole engine STOP .... Which makes
NO sense to
me... And then whatever it was "changed" to where the
engine then RAN
... Albeit pretty damn badly. How can this happen with
two mags? It's
beyond me, but it happened.
The left mag was completely bad. The right mag had one
intermittent
spark plug wire. Everything has been changed, engine
runs perfectly
now.
So.. The left mag failed within 100 hours of the right
mag failing. The
engine has about 780 hours on it.
Just something to consider along with everything else.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
________________________________
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> .
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
or?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
p://forums.matronics.com
ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________
Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com
<http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> : America's #1
Mapping Site.
Message 15
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Troops,
these airplanes are chick magnets right?
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
? YEAH, the 50 x 46 X 50 grandmother in the triple D with the carpet ape in
tow that wants to do chin-ups on the Pitot!
Viperdoc :>)
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: L/D redux |
> Walt...
>
> I would be glad to take this discussion off line if you would like,
> because I do not want to bore people who are not interested.
>
> Speaking to the "cushioning" effect....
>
> There is a term in camshaft design called overlap. In cams designed with
> overlap, both intake and exhaust valves can be open at the same time.
> Engines with higher degrees of overlap normally do not perform well at
> lower RPM settings. Engines designed with such cams usually have a
> sharply rising HP and Torque curve that maximizes at a designed RPM
> setting. Past that setting, power will actually diminish. Such engines
> normally have a very "lopey" idle, very much like aircraft engines, which
> by and large do the same thing.
The M14P has 45 degs.(crankshaft rotation) of valve overlap. Intake opens at
20 Deg. BTDC and exhaust closes at 25 deg. ATDC.
The R1340 has a total overlap of 57 degs.
Both numbers are at the nominal valve clearance setting.
> That said, during the cycle of exhaust followed by intake, there is very
> little if any "cushion" at the top of the piston's stroke. If there was,
> exhaust gases would actually flow back out the intake valve! So, one
> cycle out of the four at least does not exhibit the effect you speak of,
> if I understand what you are saying correctly? Does this make sense to
> you?
No. I have never heard of an aircraft engine without valve overlap. Even the
old C series Continentals had some. The flow is the other direction even
without supercharging. Overlap clears the combustion chamber of exhaust
gases since the exhaust stroke is essentially finished.
> Further, in a car engine, every time you downshift and let off the gas,
> you are getting the exact same effect as what we are discussing with
> aircraft engines.
>
> I understand completely the issue of main bearing lubrication, which by
> the way the M-14 differs quite a bit in design from American made radials,
> yet that said, I do not think I am qualified enough to discuss those
> loading areas with confidence.
There is some difference but it may be more related to the crankshaft joint
design. Hard to be sure without seeing the actual components.
> So staying with the piston speed // compression // loading issues... I
> think I see now what you are saying, but can you explain why a V-8 would
> not suffer a quick death from such reverse loading as experienced when
> downshifting, or ... Going down long mountain grades in a low gear...
> Etc., etc., yet an aircraft engine doing the exact same thing is "bad for
> it".
No idea. Know dick about car engines.
> Understand that I am not saying: YOU ARE WRONG. I am struggling to
> understand in my mind how it can apply to a piston in one engine and not
> apply to a piston in another.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 0:19
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Fw: L/D redux
>
>
> Mark; See comments below
>
>> --> Point,
>> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>> Walt would you please explain what you mean by "centrifugal piston
>> loading" ?? I am not a radial engine expert, but I would think the
>> term would be the same, and for the same reasons, as regular V-8
>> racing engines, which I do have a lot of expereince with. In the
>> world I come from, we call it "piston speed", and of course it is
>> related to the stroke and the RPM of the engine. If we are on the
>> same page of music here, the worry with the race engine I work with
>> comes from the exact failure areas you speak of, which is why the
>> emphasis on light weight pistons, and is also why you can easily build
>> a 327 Chevy to turn 9000 RPM, but why there is much more load on a 454
>> doing the same thing... Longer stroke (and thus higher piston speed)
>> and heavier pistons in the 454. That said, whether the engine is
>> loaded or unloaded in my training does not make any difference. When
>> the piston reaches the end of it's travel and has to reverse direction,
>> there is tremendous forces applied al!
>> l over the place, but piston pin, piston, and rod itself are the
>> biggest areas of concern.
>>
>> To repeat and simplify, the "big force" involved is simply when the
>> piston reaches the top and reverses direction. The more it weighs and
>> the faster it is going when this happens means "more force".
>
> To be honest I was desperately scratching for a descriptive word here for
> the forces you have just described. Maybe sudden deceleration would have
> been better.
>
> I learned about this teaching myself aerobatics in a PT26 with a Ranger
> engine and of course a fixed pitch prop. (In the early 1950's there were
> no aerobatic instructers around, in fact aerobatic seemed to be a dirty
> word).
> To get enough speed for an immellman or hammerhead it was necessary to
> keep reducing power in the dive in order to stay just under red line RPM.
> ( this was not the worlds best aerobatic mount).
>
> Started pulling cylinders due to low compression and found all six pistons
> cracked from the pin bore. Turned out to be an early model engine that did
> not incorporate piston pin plugs. The pins were being deformed by the
> force reversal causing the pistons to fail.
>
>
>> What I fail to understand is why this force would be larger or smaller
>> when the engine is producing power, or not producing power?
>
> I think the reason is manifold pressure or maybe more accurately brake
> mean effective pressure (BMEP). The piston is "cushioned" on the
> compression/power cycle by combustion forces and on the exhaust/intake
> cycle by exhaust expulsion and, just before the piston reaches TDC, the
> input of pressurized air/fuel mixture from the manifold.
>
> With the larger radial engines an excess of manifold pressure (over
> square) is necessary to provide this cushion. As an example the P&W R1340
> numbers are - T.O. (600 HP) 2250RPM & 36"MP, 5 min limit - Rated Power
> (550HP) 2200 RPM & 32.5" MP, no limit - Typical cruise setting - (55%-
> 300HP) 1800 RPM & 26"MP.
>
> Jim Goolsby sent a very informative post on this subject with an insert
> from Mr. R Sohn describing the effect of these forces on the master rod
> bearing if the "cushion" is not maintained.
> I believe he is absolutely correct.
>
>
>> Could you please explain what you mean by: "if you run significantly
>> reduced power at the max. RPM for any length of time there is the
>> possibility of damage due to the increased centrifugal loading of the
>> piston and pin."
>>
>> What increased loading are you talking about assuming the engine is
>> still running under maximum RPM limits? Why is there more loading
>> with power off, than power on?
>
> Covered above, I think.
>
>
> The M14P is impressive. Even with the very small piston the load reversal
> at 2900 RPM must be awesome. That it would stand up to handling the
> throttle like an ON- Off switch is mind boggling.
>
> Aside for Pappy from a P&W devotee;
> The reason the R1830 has a smaller master rod bearing is because it has
> TWO of them and much smaller pistons flailing around.
>
> Cheers,
> Walt
>
>> Mark Bitterlich
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter
>> Lannon
>> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 22:55
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Fw: L/D redux
>>
>>
>> You all are getting me confused! High RPM, low MP, overspeed??,
>> contact points for the master rod bearing??, direct drive, geared
>> drive. Where to
>> begin---------
>>
>> At some point on approach you will reduce the power and, if you follow
>> standard practice, will move the prop control to High RPM. If you have
>> reduced power enough you will not see any RPM increase because the
>> governor has sensed an underspeed condition and has already moved the
>> blades to full fine.
>> The only reason for moving the prop control is to set up for a
>> possible emergency go-around.
>> Therefore the prop is always in the highest drag condition on a normal
>> landing.
>>
>> There can be no "overspeed" since with increasing power the governor
>> will limit RPM to the max. setting. However, if you run significantly
>> reduced power at the max. RPM for any length of time there is the
>> possibility of damage due to the increased centrifugal loading of the
>> piston and pin.
>> That is the primary reason for avoiding that scenario.
>>
>> There is no such thing as a "contact point" on the master rod bearing,
>> unless it is totally worn out and nearing failure. That is the
>> function of oil. It's main purpose is to ensure there is NO contact.
>>
>> The master rod bearing (and the inner bearing end of each link rod) is
>> pressure lubricated from the crank journal cavity on ALL radial engines.
>> Whether geared or direct drive makes zero difference in this area.
>>
>> It is possible that the M14 is more tolerant of centrifugal piston
>> loading than P&W or Curtis Wright engines simply due to the small piston
>> size.
>>
>> Cheers;
>> Walt
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 2:42 PM
>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Fw: L/D redux
>>
>>
>>> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>>>
>>> Brian,
>>> Thanks for enlightening me. I was not thinking about the direct drive
>>> of the P&Ws verses the geared drive of the M-14. Don't quote me but I
>>> believe the
>>> M-14 master crank rod bearing has its own oil journal. I ran across
>>> that as I was researching the oil supply of the prop governor for an
>>> engine vibration occurring right at Vref.
>>> It can be found in the diagrams of the M-14 engine manual.
>>> Doc
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
>>> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:32 AM
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Fw: L/D redux
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 3, 2008, at 5:32 AM, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote:
>>>
>>>> <viperdoc@mindspring.com
>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Jerry,
>>>> I thought that by pushing the pitch to full forward on the prop at
>>>> cruise manifold setting ( 600-750-800) and then pulling the MAP back
>>>> to use the prop as a speed brake would put you at risk for over
>>>> speeding the engine?
>>>
>>> Not if your prop governor is working properly.
>>>
>>>> Now you have set up a situation where the prop is driving the engine
>>>> not the engine driving the prop. Correct me if I'm wrong.
>>>
>>> Yes, that is the case. But remember, when the RPM increases above the
>>> set-point, the governor will drive the prop toward course pitch
>>> (lower RPM). This reduces the angle-of-attack on the prop blades and
>>> they will produce less lift (turning force). It is also why you get a
>>> longer glide with the prop set to low RPM -- the prop is not taking
>>> as much energy from the airframe to turn the engine.
>>>
>>>> The translated 1990 RU manual that I have says for approaches set
>>>> the pitch at 80% and 400 mmHG on the advance (MAP lever)for the 52.
>>>> I generally fly 70% and 400 mmHg or less (MAP) in the 50 as needed.
>>>> I know at times being at say 70-80% and 750-800 mmHG chasing down
>>>> someone (lead or an
>>>> adversary) then
>>>> pulling the MAP lever to idle to avoid overshoot is like having a
>>>> big speed brake out there! The but is in the huge change in pitch of
>>>> the engine. I always wondered if I was overstressing the reduction
>>>> gears or the shaft itself. Honestly I would rather go idle boards
>>>> (deploy the speed
>>>> brakes)
>>>> than use my engine as the speed brake.
>>>
>>> Well, think about it Roger. Do you think that the prop can generate
>>> more torque turning the engine or the engine generate more torque
>>> turning the prop? I think you will find that the torque is at its
>>> peak when the engine is producing maximum power. That means that the
>>> overall stresses on the gearbox will be less when the power is pulled
>>> back.
>>>
>>>> I know a couple of old 17 drivers along with a 47 driver and T-28
>>>> driver/maintenance officer at the airport. I will ask then their
>>>> take today at our fly-in. If the weather permits!
>>>
>>> Now here is something you need to be careful about. You cannot assume
>>> that the M14 or Huosai should be operated the same way that the big
>>> Pratts and Wrights should be operated. As I understand it, the crank
>>> on the Pratts and Wrights have just one oil journal and it feeds oil
>>> to the contact point for the master rod bearing when the rod is
>>> turning the crank. When the prop is turning the crank then the crank
>>> is turning the master rod which changes the contact point. This can
>>> lead to under-lubrication of the master rod bearing. That is why they
>>> admonish you to never let the prop drive the engine in the Wrights
>>> and Pratts.
>>>
>>> So that brings up the question of how the M14 and Huosai engines get
>>> oil to the master rod bearing. If there are oil journals to ensure
>>> proper lubrication of the master rod bearing when the prop is turning
>>> the engine then there is no reason to worry about doing damage to the
>>> engine when you pull the throttle back to idle. Given that the M14 is
>>> intended for aerobatic use, I suspect it *does* have proper
>>> lubrication when the prop is driving the engine, hence the lack of an
>>> warnings about the prop driving the engine in the manuals.
>>>
>>> But this is only supposition on my part. Only someone who really
>>> knows the engine can tell for sure.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
>>> brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
>>> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>>>
>>> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
>>> - Antoine de Saint-Exupry
>>>
>>> PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
>>> PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A
>>> 1B6C
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 17
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In a message dated 5/7/2008 6:45:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E" _mark.bitterlich@navy.mil_ (mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil)
Its actually fairly easy to check. If you take off the mag cap, you'll see
the rotor. Simply try to turn it. If it turns the woodruff key is out or
the shaft is sheared. With the woodruff key out the gear below the rotor next
to the coil is allowed to spin freely, throwing off the internal timing of
the mag. To see the gear itself, you would have to remove the mag and than
remove that side section that gives you access to the coil. That gear is right
there. You can't see the woodruff key if the gear is properly mounted.
Pappy
Thanks all for your thoughtful inputs. I have benefited from reading
your thoughts and experiences.
Doug... My mags were "since new". My engine is a "first run" and I have
the logs. Your thoughts on mag replacement seems to be very well
founded. Lesson learned on my part.
Mark Bitterlich
P.s. Interesting thought on the woodruff key as well Pappy. I am
trying to think how I could check that easily.. But without removing
that bottom adjustment assy., I can't think how! Can you SEE it? I am
going home tonight and check!
________________________________
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
Message 18
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| Subject: | Lubrication of Gills and regulating ring |
What are your recommendations on lubrication of all those moving parts in
the gill set in front of the M14P on your Yak 50, 52 or 55. They are a very
high maintenance item on my 55M.
Grease collects dust and makes for a very good rubbing compound. Oil ends up
all over the engine. Fretting is the result of no lubrication. Any comments
welcome.
Royden Heays
Yak 55M
C-GRED
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