Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:25 AM - Re: (Eric Wobschall)
2. 05:43 AM - Re: (A. Dennis Savarese)
3. 06:09 AM - Re: (cjpilot710@aol.com)
4. 06:44 AM - Re: (Eric Wobschall)
5. 06:44 AM - Re: (Eric Wobschall)
6. 07:11 AM - Re: (A. Dennis Savarese)
7. 08:49 AM - Re: (cjpilot710@aol.com)
8. 09:31 AM - Re: Oil Shut Valve (Byron Fox)
9. 10:24 AM - Re: Re: Oil Shut Valve (Larry Pine)
10. 12:42 PM - Re: (Eric Wobschall)
11. 01:27 PM - Re: (Eric Wobschall)
12. 01:51 PM - Re: Re: Oil Shut Valve (Eric Wobschall)
13. 01:51 PM - Re: Fw: Re: The Hydraulic lock (Larry Pine)
14. 02:33 PM - Re: Re: Oil Shut Valve (cjpilot710@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: e: Yak-List: |
I don't think they do (or did) any of this stuff in the Eastern Bloc.
Maybe that's because circumstances were different. Judging by the
equipment that came with my Yak-52, these planes were intended to be
supported by a ground crew that we're not likely to have here. Maybe
the Russians had a mechanic Junior Grade with the responsibility of
making sure the oil pump check valve was closed. Having said this, I
think about balancing the prospect of a hydraulic lock (when all
proper procedures seem to have been followed) with the risks of
improvising something, even when I know the re-engineers are
qualified. Tough one.
On Feb 26, 2010, at 1:08 AM, William Halverson wrote:
>
>
> Sounds like a filter or screen before the oil pump would keep
> 'stuff' out of the pump and increase the chances the internal valve
> stays clean ...
>
> Thanks for the good info!
>
> William
>
> At 08:47 AM 2/25/2010, you wrote:
>> There is an internal "valve" in the oil pump which may remain
>> open. Jill of M14P, Inc. did an excellent article in one of the
>> recent issues of the RPA magazine about this problem. See the Fall
>> of 2009 issue, page 15 attached. If this valve remains open even
>> slightly, oil will drain from the oil tank into the engine which
>> may cause the hydraulic lock. Although Jim Kimball's oil shut off
>> and drain kit are outstanding, the root of the problem is internal
>> to the oil pump.
>> Dennis
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: William Halverson
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:05 AM
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
>>
>> >
>>
>> Somewhere I recall that when oil leaks from the sump, it could be an
>> indicator the oil pump's seals are wearing out. It that what is
>> causing the oil to drain into the intake pipes? Did I recall that
>> correctly?
>>
>> Also my manual calls for running the engine at about the same power
>> setting as used for the pre-flight engine run up for about 20 seconds
>> to suck oil out of the sump and shove it back into the oil tank. I
>> love it when crowds gather to see what's causing all that noise in a
>> hangar row .... so far the EPA truck has not showed up.
>>
>> ;-)
>>
>>
>> At 11:08 PM 2/24/2010, Francois Davel wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >I can take 3 days for a Hydraulic lock to form......That translates
>> >into a lot fun flying, but a huge fuel bill.... :-(
>> >
>> >--------
>> >Round Engines nbsp; Navigator Photoshare, and href=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> "> http://www.matronics========================<; via the Web
>> href=" http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> _p; generous bsp; href=" http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ">http://www.matronics.com/c================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>> signature database 4896 (20100225) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: e: Yak-List: |
Eric,
No human being can get to the "oil pump check valve" as long as the oil
pump is mounted to the engine. It is internal to the oil pump.
This problem has bounced around via the list for years. The root of the
problem is in the oil pump itself (as pointed out in Jill's article) and
the net is as long as we install any type of external shut off or
mechanism to drain the sump in an attempt to keep the oil from pooling
in the lower cylinders, we're truthfully just masking the problem.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Wobschall
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List:
I don't think they do (or did) any of this stuff in the Eastern Bloc.
Maybe that's because circumstances were different. Judging by the
equipment that came with my Yak-52, these planes were intended to be
supported by a ground crew that we're not likely to have here. Maybe the
Russians had a mechanic Junior Grade with the responsibility of making
sure the oil pump check valve was closed. Having said this, I think
about balancing the prospect of a hydraulic lock (when all proper
procedures seem to have been followed) with the risks of improvising
something, even when I know the re-engineers are qualified. Tough one.
On Feb 26, 2010, at 1:08 AM, William Halverson wrote:
Sounds like a filter or screen before the oil pump would keep
'stuff' out of the pump and increase the chances the internal valve
stays clean ...
Thanks for the good info!
William
At 08:47 AM 2/25/2010, you wrote:
There is an internal "valve" in the oil pump which may remain
open. Jill of M14P, Inc. did an excellent article in one of the recent
issues of the RPA magazine about this problem. See the Fall of 2009
issue, page 15 attached. If this valve remains open even slightly, oil
will drain from the oil tank into the engine which may cause the
hydraulic lock. Although Jim Kimball's oil shut off and drain kit are
outstanding, the root of the problem is internal to the oil pump.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: William Halverson
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
<william@netpros.net>
Somewhere I recall that when oil leaks from the sump, it could
be an
indicator the oil pump's seals are wearing out. It that what is
causing the oil to drain into the intake pipes? Did I recall
that correctly?
Also my manual calls for running the engine at about the same
power
setting as used for the pre-flight engine run up for about 20
seconds
to suck oil out of the sump and shove it back into the oil tank.
I
love it when crowds gather to see what's causing all that noise
in a
hangar row .... so far the EPA truck has not showed up.
;-)
At 11:08 PM 2/24/2010, Francois Davel wrote:
<fdavel@senninger.com>
>
>I can take 3 days for a Hydraulic lock to form......That
translates
>into a lot fun flying, but a huge fuel bill.... :-(
>
>--------
>Round Engines nbsp; Navigator Photoshare, and href="
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List ">
http://www.matronics==================
======<; via the Web href="
http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp; href="
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
">http://www.matronics.com/c===============
=
__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
signature database 4896 (20100225) __________
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: e: Yak-List: |
Whatever you do do not put a filter on the line going INTO the engine. Th
is was done and the gentleman almost lost his engine due to low oil pressu
re. This pump is not a good "sucker." The screen is there to take out "B
ig pieces", not to empted the oil flow.
Putting a filter on the out line, keeps the entire system cleaner i.e., li
nes, oil cooler (more efficient), and tank. Because the oil is thinned ou
t from the heat, it goes though the filter easier. Also a 10 micron filte
r removes almost all of the ware causing particulates.
A oil tank shut off valve has been on my engine 1,500 hours now. I've nev
er had a hydraulic lock and there ain' no oil on my hangar floor.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
-----Original Message-----
From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Fri, Feb 26, 2010 8:35 am
Subject: Re: Yak-List:
Eric,
No human being can get to the "oil pump check valve" as long as the oil pu
mp is mounted to the engine. It is internal to the oil pump.
This problem has bounced around via the list for years. The root of the
problem is in the oil pump itself (as pointed out in Jill's article) and
the net is as long as we install any type of external shut off or mechani
sm to drain the sump in an attempt to keep the oil from pooling in the low
er cylinders, we're truthfully just masking the problem.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Wobschall
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List:
I don't think they do (or did) any of this stuff in the Eastern Bloc. Mayb
e that's because circumstances were different. Judging by the equipment th
at came with my Yak-52, these planes were intended to be supported by a gr
ound crew that we're not likely to have here. Maybe the Russians had a mec
hanic Junior Grade with the responsibility of making sure the oil pump che
ck valve was closed. Having said this, I think about balancing the prospec
t of a hydraulic lock (when all proper procedures seem to have been follow
ed) with the risks of improvising something, even when I know the re-engin
eers are qualified. Tough one.
On Feb 26, 2010, at 1:08 AM, William Halverson wrote:
Sounds like a filter or screen before the oil pump would keep 'stuff' out
of the pump and increase the chances the internal valve stays clean ...
Thanks for the good info!
William
At 08:47 AM 2/25/2010, you wrote:
There is an internal "valve" in the oil pump which may remain open. Jill
of M14P, Inc. did an excellent article in one of the recent issues of the
RPA magazine about this problem. See the Fall of 2009 issue, page 15 att
ached. If this valve remains open even slightly, oil will drain from the
oil tank into the engine which may cause the hydraulic lock. Although
Jim Kimball's oil shut off and drain kit are outstanding, the root of the
problem is internal to the oil pump.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: William Halverson
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
Somewhere I recall that when oil leaks from the sump, it could be an
indicator the oil pump's seals are wearing out. It that what is
causing the oil to drain into the intake pipes? Did I recall that correct
ly?
Also my manual calls for running the engine at about the same power
setting as used for the pre-flight engine run up for about 20 seconds
to suck oil out of the sump and shove it back into the oil tank. I
love it when crowds gather to see what's causing all that noise in a
hangar row .... so far the EPA truck has not showed up.
;-)
At 11:08 PM 2/24/2010, Francois Davel wrote:
>
>I can take 3 days for a Hydraulic lock to form......That translates
>into a lot fun flying, but a huge fuel bill.... :-(
>
>--------
>Round Engines nbsp; Navigator Photoshare, and href=" http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List "> http://www.matronics======
==================<; via the Web hr
ef=" http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp; href=" http://www.matronics
.com/contribution ">http://www.matronics.com/c=========
=======
__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signatur
e database 4896 (20100225) __________
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronhref
="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/con
tribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?Yak-List
ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: e: Yak-List: |
That's the Kimball valve with a microswitch starter lockout and a
Bowden cable to control it?
On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:06 AM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
> Whatever you do do not put a filter on the line going INTO the
> engine. This was done and the gentleman almost lost his engine due
> to low oil pressure. This pump is not a good "sucker." The screen
> is there to take out "Big pieces", not to empted the oil flow.
>
> Putting a filter on the out line, keeps the entire system cleaner
> i.e., lines, oil cooler (more efficient), and tank. Because the oil
> is thinned out from the heat, it goes though the filter easier.
> Also a 10 micron filter removes almost all of the ware causing
> particulates.
>
> A oil tank shut off valve has been on my engine 1,500 hours now.
> I've never had a hydraulic lock and there ain' no oil on my hangar
> floor.
>
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Fri, Feb 26, 2010 8:35 am
> Subject: Re: Yak-List:
>
> Eric,
> No human being can get to the "oil pump check valve" as long as the
> oil pump is mounted to the engine. It is internal to the oil pump.
>
> This problem has bounced around via the list for years. The root of
> the problem is in the oil pump itself (as pointed out in Jill's
> article) and the net is as long as we install any type of external
> shut off or mechanism to drain the sump in an attempt to keep the
> oil from pooling in the lower cylinders, we're truthfully just
> masking the problem.
>
> Dennis
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Eric Wobschall
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 7:23 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List:
>
> I don't think they do (or did) any of this stuff in the Eastern
> Bloc. Maybe that's because circumstances were different. Judging by
> the equipment that came with my Yak-52, these planes were intended
> to be supported by a ground crew that we're not likely to have here.
> Maybe the Russians had a mechanic Junior Grade with the
> responsibility of making sure the oil pump check valve was closed.
> Having said this, I think about balancing the prospect of a
> hydraulic lock (when all proper procedures seem to have been
> followed) with the risks of improvising something, even when I know
> the re-engineers are qualified. Tough one.
>
> On Feb 26, 2010, at 1:08 AM, William Halverson wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Sounds like a filter or screen before the oil pump would keep
>> 'stuff' out of the pump and increase the chances the internal valve
>> stays clean ...
>>
>> Thanks for the good info!
>>
>> William
>>
>> At 08:47 AM 2/25/2010, you wrote:
>>> There is an internal "valve" in the oil pump which may remain
>>> open. Jill of M14P, Inc. did an excellent article in one of the
>>> recent issues of the RPA magazine about this problem. See the
>>> Fall of 2009 issue, page 15 attached. If this valve remains open
>>> even slightly, oil will drain from the oil tank into the engine
>>> which may cause the hydraulic lock. Although Jim Kimball's oil
>>> shut off and drain kit are outstanding, the root of the problem is
>>> internal to the oil pump.
>>> Dennis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: William Halverson
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:05 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> Somewhere I recall that when oil leaks from the sump, it could be an
>>> indicator the oil pump's seals are wearing out. It that what is
>>> causing the oil to drain into the intake pipes? Did I recall that
>>> correctly?
>>>
>>> Also my manual calls for running the engine at about the same power
>>> setting as used for the pre-flight engine run up for about 20
>>> seconds
>>> to suck oil out of the sump and shove it back into the oil tank. I
>>> love it when crowds gather to see what's causing all that noise in a
>>> hangar row .... so far the EPA truck has not showed up.
>>>
>>> ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> At 11:08 PM 2/24/2010, Francois Davel wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >I can take 3 days for a Hydraulic lock to form......That translates
>>> >into a lot fun flying, but a huge fuel bill.... :-(
>>> >
>>> >--------
>>> >Round Engines nbsp; Navigator Photoshare, and href=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>> "> http://www.matronics========================<; via the Web
>>> href=" http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> _p; generous bsp; href=" http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ">http://www.matronics.com/c================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>> signature database 4896 (20100225) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronhref
>> ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/c
>
>
> ===================================
> get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ===================================
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
> _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: e: Yak-List: |
Dennis:
Sure, didn't mean to say that the valve could be manipulated remotely,
only that you'd know about it, and perhaps replace the pump. I guess
they loved to keep people working back then, so maybe not such a show
stopper in a big governmental system.
You said masking the problem... Meaning a bad check valve design,
something that tends to clog it open a bit, or what? I'll find Jill's
article today.
-Eric
On Feb 26, 2010, at 8:35 AM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
> Eric,
> No human being can get to the "oil pump check valve" as long as the
> oil pump is mounted to the engine. It is internal to the oil pump.
>
> This problem has bounced around via the list for years. The root of
> the problem is in the oil pump itself (as pointed out in Jill's
> article) and the net is as long as we install any type of external
> shut off or mechanism to drain the sump in an attempt to keep the
> oil from pooling in the lower cylinders, we're truthfully just
> masking the problem.
>
> Dennis
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Eric Wobschall
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 7:23 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List:
>
> I don't think they do (or did) any of this stuff in the Eastern
> Bloc. Maybe that's because circumstances were different. Judging by
> the equipment that came with my Yak-52, these planes were intended
> to be supported by a ground crew that we're not likely to have here.
> Maybe the Russians had a mechanic Junior Grade with the
> responsibility of making sure the oil pump check valve was closed.
> Having said this, I think about balancing the prospect of a
> hydraulic lock (when all proper procedures seem to have been
> followed) with the risks of improvising something, even when I know
> the re-engineers are qualified. Tough one.
>
> On Feb 26, 2010, at 1:08 AM, William Halverson wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Sounds like a filter or screen before the oil pump would keep
>> 'stuff' out of the pump and increase the chances the internal valve
>> stays clean ...
>>
>> Thanks for the good info!
>>
>> William
>>
>> At 08:47 AM 2/25/2010, you wrote:
>>> There is an internal "valve" in the oil pump which may remain
>>> open. Jill of M14P, Inc. did an excellent article in one of the
>>> recent issues of the RPA magazine about this problem. See the
>>> Fall of 2009 issue, page 15 attached. If this valve remains open
>>> even slightly, oil will drain from the oil tank into the engine
>>> which may cause the hydraulic lock. Although Jim Kimball's oil
>>> shut off and drain kit are outstanding, the root of the problem is
>>> internal to the oil pump.
>>> Dennis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: William Halverson
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:05 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> Somewhere I recall that when oil leaks from the sump, it could be an
>>> indicator the oil pump's seals are wearing out. It that what is
>>> causing the oil to drain into the intake pipes? Did I recall that
>>> correctly?
>>>
>>> Also my manual calls for running the engine at about the same power
>>> setting as used for the pre-flight engine run up for about 20
>>> seconds
>>> to suck oil out of the sump and shove it back into the oil tank. I
>>> love it when crowds gather to see what's causing all that noise in a
>>> hangar row .... so far the EPA truck has not showed up.
>>>
>>> ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> At 11:08 PM 2/24/2010, Francois Davel wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >I can take 3 days for a Hydraulic lock to form......That translates
>>> >into a lot fun flying, but a huge fuel bill.... :-(
>>> >
>>> >--------
>>> >Round Engines nbsp; Navigator Photoshare, and href=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>> "> http://www.matronics========================<; via the Web
>>> href=" http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> _p; generous bsp; href=" http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ">http://www.matronics.com/c================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>> signature database 4896 (20100225) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronhref
>> ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/c
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: e: Yak-List: |
Masking the problem means covering up the real problem, which is the
valve in the oil pump which remains open and allows the oil in the tank
to continue to drain into the engine. I did not imply a bad check valve
design since I am certainly not qualified to make that statement. As
end users of the engine we do know what causes the oil to drain into the
engine and that is the result of the internal valve in the oil pump not
closing completely for whatever reason. We either fix the oil pump
properly (Jill's solution) or if we don't fix the oil pump we install
the oil shut off valve which stops the oil from the oil tank from
leaking through the internal valve in the oil pump and into the engine.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Wobschall
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List:
Dennis:
Sure, didn't mean to say that the valve could be manipulated remotely,
only that you'd know about it, and perhaps replace the pump. I guess
they loved to keep people working back then, so maybe not such a show
stopper in a big governmental system.
You said masking the problem... Meaning a bad check valve design,
something that tends to clog it open a bit, or what? I'll find Jill's
article today.
-Eric
On Feb 26, 2010, at 8:35 AM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
Eric,
No human being can get to the "oil pump check valve" as long as the
oil pump is mounted to the engine. It is internal to the oil pump.
This problem has bounced around via the list for years. The root of
the problem is in the oil pump itself (as pointed out in Jill's article)
and the net is as long as we install any type of external shut off or
mechanism to drain the sump in an attempt to keep the oil from pooling
in the lower cylinders, we're truthfully just masking the problem.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Wobschall
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List:
I don't think they do (or did) any of this stuff in the Eastern
Bloc. Maybe that's because circumstances were different. Judging by the
equipment that came with my Yak-52, these planes were intended to be
supported by a ground crew that we're not likely to have here. Maybe the
Russians had a mechanic Junior Grade with the responsibility of making
sure the oil pump check valve was closed. Having said this, I think
about balancing the prospect of a hydraulic lock (when all proper
procedures seem to have been followed) with the risks of improvising
something, even when I know the re-engineers are qualified. Tough one.
On Feb 26, 2010, at 1:08 AM, William Halverson wrote:
Sounds like a filter or screen before the oil pump would keep
'stuff' out of the pump and increase the chances the internal valve
stays clean ...
Thanks for the good info!
William
At 08:47 AM 2/25/2010, you wrote:
There is an internal "valve" in the oil pump which may remain
open. Jill of M14P, Inc. did an excellent article in one of the recent
issues of the RPA magazine about this problem. See the Fall of 2009
issue, page 15 attached. If this valve remains open even slightly, oil
will drain from the oil tank into the engine which may cause the
hydraulic lock. Although Jim Kimball's oil shut off and drain kit are
outstanding, the root of the problem is internal to the oil pump.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: William Halverson
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
<william@netpros.net>
Somewhere I recall that when oil leaks from the sump, it
could be an
indicator the oil pump's seals are wearing out. It that
what is
causing the oil to drain into the intake pipes? Did I
recall that correctly?
Also my manual calls for running the engine at about the
same power
setting as used for the pre-flight engine run up for about
20 seconds
to suck oil out of the sump and shove it back into the oil
tank. I
love it when crowds gather to see what's causing all that
noise in a
hangar row .... so far the EPA truck has not showed up.
;-)
At 11:08 PM 2/24/2010, Francois Davel wrote:
<fdavel@senninger.com>
>
>I can take 3 days for a Hydraulic lock to form......That
translates
>into a lot fun flying, but a huge fuel bill.... :-(
>
>--------
>Round Engines nbsp; Navigator Photoshare, and
href=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List ">
http://www.matronics==================
======<; via the Web href="
http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp; href="
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
">http://www.matronics.com/c===============
=
__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of
virus signature database 4896 (20100225) __________
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronhre
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ontribution
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: e: Yak-List: |
No. This set up was done by Bill Blackwell. It works the same way though
. This unite is opened and closed electrically. There is a micro switch
built into the valve itself - independent of the power that drive the val
ve motor. Does the same thing.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Wobschall <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
Sent: Fri, Feb 26, 2010 9:38 am
Subject: Re: Yak-List:
That's the Kimball valve with a microswitch starter lockout and a Bowden
cable to control it?
On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:06 AM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
Whatever you do do not put a filter on the line going INTO the engine. Th
is was done and the gentleman almost lost his engine due to low oil pressu
re. This pump is not a good "sucker." The screen is there to take out "B
ig pieces", not to empted the oil flow.
Putting a filter on the out line, keeps the entire system cleaner i.e., li
nes, oil cooler (more efficient), and tank. Because the oil is thinned ou
t from the heat, it goes though the filter easier. Also a 10 micron filte
r removes almost all of the ware causing particulates.
A oil tank shut off valve has been on my engine 1,500 hours now. I've nev
er had a hydraulic lock and there ain' no oil on my hangar floor.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
-----Original Message-----
From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Fri, Feb 26, 2010 8:35 am
Subject: Re: Yak-List:
Eric,
No human being can get to the "oil pump check valve" as long as the oil pu
mp is mounted to the engine. It is internal to the oil pump.
This problem has bounced around via the list for years. The root of the
problem is in the oil pump itself (as pointed out in Jill's article) and
the net is as long as we install any type of external shut off or mechani
sm to drain the sump in an attempt to keep the oil from pooling in the low
er cylinders, we're truthfully just masking the problem.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Wobschall
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List:
I don't think they do (or did) any of this stuff in the Eastern Bloc. Mayb
e that's because circumstances were different. Judging by the equipment th
at came with my Yak-52, these planes were intended to be supported by a gr
ound crew that we're not likely to have here. Maybe the Russians had a mec
hanic Junior Grade with the responsibility of making sure the oil pump che
ck valve was closed. Having said this, I think about balancing the prospec
t of a hydraulic lock (when all proper procedures seem to have been follow
ed) with the risks of improvising something, even when I know the re-engin
eers are qualified. Tough one.
On Feb 26, 2010, at 1:08 AM, William Halverson wrote:
Sounds like a filter or screen before the oil pump would keep 'stuff' out
of the pump and increase the chances the internal valve stays clean ...
Thanks for the good info!
William
At 08:47 AM 2/25/2010, you wrote:
There is an internal "valve" in the oil pump which may remain open. Jill
of M14P, Inc. did an excellent article in one of the recent issues of the
RPA magazine about this problem. See the Fall of 2009 issue, page 15 att
ached. If this valve remains open even slightly, oil will drain from the
oil tank into the engine which may cause the hydraulic lock. Although
Jim Kimball's oil shut off and drain kit are outstanding, the root of the
problem is internal to the oil pump.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: William Halverson
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
Somewhere I recall that when oil leaks from the sump, it could be an
indicator the oil pump's seals are wearing out. It that what is
causing the oil to drain into the intake pipes? Did I recall that correct
ly?
Also my manual calls for running the engine at about the same power
setting as used for the pre-flight engine run up for about 20 seconds
to suck oil out of the sump and shove it back into the oil tank. I
love it when crowds gather to see what's causing all that noise in a
hangar row .... so far the EPA truck has not showed up.
;-)
At 11:08 PM 2/24/2010, Francois Davel wrote:
>
>I can take 3 days for a Hydraulic lock to form......That translates
>into a lot fun flying, but a huge fuel bill.... :-(
>
>--------
>Round Engines nbsp; Navigator Photoshare, and href=" http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List "> http://www.matronics======
==================<; via the Web hr
ef=" http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp; href=" http://www.matronics
.com/contribution ">http://www.matronics.com/c=========
=======
__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signatur
e database 4896 (20100225) __________
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronhref
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tribution
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tribution
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Shut Valve |
The valve used in Bill Blackwell's kit was manufacted in the mid-1950s
for C-130s and Sikorsky H-37s. So I have learned from
Whittaker Controls,an LA based firm, that built them. Sadly, they no
longer make the valve. However, Whittaker is willing to overhaul the
valve for just......wait for it........$3,790.00!! Yes, that's about
$4,000. Moreover, Whittaker won't sell just the O-rings and internal
seals for "liability. concerns." I'm currently begging them just for
the part numbers so that I might acquire the seals for my leaking
valve elsewhere. Just a bit frustrating.
...Blitz
Sent from my worlds.
> No. This set up was done by Bill Blackwell. It works the same way
> though. This unite is opened and closed electrically. There is a
> micro switch built into the valve itself - independent of the power
> that drive the valve motor. Does the same thing.
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric Wobschall <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Fri, Feb 26, 2010 9:38 am
> Subject: Re: Yak-List:
>
> That's the Kimball valve with a microswitch starter lockout and a
> Bowden cable to control it?
>
>
> On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:06 AM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>> Whatever you do do not put a filter on the line going INTO the
>> engine. This was done and the gentleman almost lost his engine due
>> to low oil pressure. This pump is not a good "sucker." The screen
>> is there to take out "Big pieces", not to empted the oil flow.
>>
>> Putting a filter on the out line, keeps the entire system cleaner
>> i.e., lines, oil cooler (more efficient), and tank. Because the
>> oil is thinned out from the heat, it goes though the filter
>> easier. Also a 10 micron filter removes almost all of the ware
>> causing particulates.
>>
>> A oil tank shut off valve has been on my engine 1,500 hours now.
>> I've never had a hydraulic lock and there ain' no oil on my hangar
>> floor.
>>
>> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Fri, Feb 26, 2010 8:35 am
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List:
>>
>> Eric,
>> No human being can get to the "oil pump check valve" as long as the
>> oil pump is mounted to the engine. It is internal to the oil pump.
>>
>> This problem has bounced around via the list for years. The root
>> of the problem is in the oil pump itself (as pointed out in Jill's
>> article) and the net is as long as we install any type of external
>> shut off or mechanism to drain the sump in an attempt to keep the
>> oil from pooling in the lower cylinders, we're truthfully just
>> masking the problem.
>>
>> Dennis
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Eric Wobschall
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 7:23 AM
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List:
>>
>> I don't think they do (or did) any of this stuff in the Eastern
>> Bloc. Maybe that's because circumstances were different. Judging by
>> the equipment that came with my Yak-52, these planes were intended
>> to be supported by a ground crew that we're not likely to have
>> here. Maybe the Russians had a mechanic Junior Grade with the
>> responsibility of making sure the oil pump check valve was closed.
>> Having said this, I think about balancing the prospect of a
>> hydraulic lock (when all proper procedures seem to have been
>> followed) with the risks of improvising something, even when I know
>> the re-engineers are qualified. Tough one.
>>
>> On Feb 26, 2010, at 1:08 AM, William Halverson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sounds like a filter or screen before the oil pump would keep
>>> 'stuff' out of the pump and increase the chances the internal
>>> valve stays clean ...
>>>
>>> Thanks for the good info!
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>> At 08:47 AM 2/25/2010, you wrote:
>>>> There is an internal "valve" in the oil pump which may remain
>>>> open. Jill of M14P, Inc. did an excellent article in one of the
>>>> recent issues of the RPA magazine about this problem. See the
>>>> Fall of 2009 issue, page 15 attached. If this valve remains open
>>>> even slightly, oil will drain from the oil tank into the engine
>>>> which may cause the hydraulic lock. Although Jim Kimball's oil
>>>> shut off and drain kit are outstanding, the root of the problem
>>>> is internal to the oil pump.
>>>> Dennis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: William Halverson
>>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:05 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Somewhere I recall that when oil leaks from the sump, it could be
>>>> an
>>>> indicator the oil pump's seals are wearing out. It that what is
>>>> causing the oil to drain into the intake pipes? Did I recall
>>>> that correctly?
>>>>
>>>> Also my manual calls for running the engine at about the same power
>>>> setting as used for the pre-flight engine run up for about 20
>>>> seconds
>>>> to suck oil out of the sump and shove it back into the oil tank. I
>>>> love it when crowds gather to see what's causing all that noise
>>>> in a
>>>> hangar row .... so far the EPA truck has not showed up.
>>>>
>>>> ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At 11:08 PM 2/24/2010, Francois Davel wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >I can take 3 days for a Hydraulic lock to form......That
>>>> translates
>>>> >into a lot fun flying, but a huge fuel bill.... :-(
>>>> >
>>>> >--------
>>>> >Round Engines nbsp; Navigator Photoshare, and href=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>>> "> http://www.matronics========================<; via the Web
>>>> href=" http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> _p; generous bsp; href=" http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>> ">http://www.matronics.com/c================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>> signature database 4896 (20100225) __________
>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronhref=
>>> "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>>
>>
>> get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>
>
> ===================================
> get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ===================================
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
> _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Shut Valve |
These valves are used a wide variety of aircraft and helicopters.- ITT, a
s well as other companies make these oil/hydraulic shut off valves.- I ha
ve one from a UH-1 helicopter and have bought three off Ebay that worked fi
ne.- Buying off ebay is always a gamble but at $45.00 ea well worth it.
- Make sure you buy one with the correct or close 3/4 inch size hole as t
he oil tank.- I happen to have a 1 inch and a welder can make a simple ad
aptor to make it work.- Tank re-enforcment will be needed if you use the
tank to hold the valve because of the weak tank bungs.
Larry Pine
--- On Fri, 2/26/10, Byron Fox <byronmfox@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Byron Fox <byronmfox@gmail.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Oil Shut Valve
The valve used in Bill Blackwell's kit was manufacted in the mid-1950s for
C-130s and Sikorsky H-37s. So I have learned from-Whittaker Controls,an L
A based firm, that built them. Sadly, they no longer make the valve. Howeve
r, Whittaker is willing to overhaul the valve for just......wait for it....
....$3,790.00!! Yes, that's about $4,000. Moreover, Whittaker won't sell ju
st the O-rings and internal seals for "liability. concerns." I'm currently
begging them just for the part numbers so that I might acquire the seals fo
r my leaking valve elsewhere. Just a bit frustrating....Blitz-
Sent from my-worlds.
=0ANo.- This set up was done by Bill Blackwell.- It works the same way
though.- This unite is opened and closed electrically.- There is a micr
o switch built into the valve itself - independent of the power that drive
the valve motor.- Does the same thing.=0A=0A=0AJim "Pappy" Goolsby
=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A
=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----
=0AFrom: Eric Wobschall <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com
=0ASent: Fri, Feb 26, 2010 9:38 am
=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List:
=0A
=0A=0A=0AThat's the Kimball valve with a microswitch starter lockout and a
Bowden cable to control it?-=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Feb 26, 2010, at 9:06 AM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:=0A=0A
=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A Whatever you do do not put a filter on the line going INTO the en
gine.- This was done and the gentleman almost lost his engine due to low
oil pressure.- This pump is not a good "sucker."- The screen is there t
o take out "Big pieces", not to empted the oil flow.- =0A=0A=0A-=0A=0A
=0APutting a filter on the out line, keeps the entire system cleaner i.e.,
lines, oil cooler (more efficient), and-tank.- Because the oil is thinn
ed out from the heat, it goes though the filter easier.- Also a 10 micron
filter removes almost all of the ware causing particulates.=0A=0A=0A-=0A
=0A=0AA oil tank shut off valve has been on my engine 1,500 hours now.- I
've never had a hydraulic lock and there ain' no oil on my hangar floor.=0A
=0A=0A-=0A=0A=0AJim "Pappy" Goolsby=0A=0A=0A-=0A=0A=0A
=0A
=0A-=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A
=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----
=0AFrom: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com
=0ASent: Fri, Feb 26, 2010 8:35 am
=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List:
=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AEric,=0A=0A=0ANo human being can get to the "oil pump check
valve" as long as the oil pump is mounted to the engine.- It is internal
to the oil pump.=0A=0A=0A-=0A=0A=0AThis problem has bounced around via th
e list for years.- The root of the problem is in the oil pump itself (as
pointed out in Jill's article) and the net is as long as we install any typ
e of external shut off or mechanism to drain the sump in an attempt to keep
the oil from pooling in the lower cylinders, we're truthfully just masking
the problem.=0A=0A=0A-=0A=0A=0ADennis=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message
----- =0A=0A=0AFrom: Eric Wobschall =0A=0A=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com =0A
=0A=0ASent: Friday, February 26, 2010 7:23 AM=0A=0A=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List
:=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0AI don't think they do (or did) any of this stuff in the Eastern Bloc.
Maybe that's because circumstances were different. Judging by the equipmen
t that came with my Yak-52, these planes were intended to be supported by a
ground crew that we're not likely to have here. Maybe the Russians had a m
echanic Junior Grade with the responsibility of making sure the oil pump ch
eck valve was closed. Having said this, I think about balancing the prospec
t of a hydraulic lock (when all proper procedures seem to have been followe
d) with the risks of improvising something, even when I know the re-enginee
rs are qualified. Tough one.- =0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Feb 26, 2010, at 1:08 AM, William Halverson wrote: =0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A
=0A
=0ASounds like a filter or screen before the oil pump would keep 'stuff' ou
t of the pump and increase the chances the internal valve stays clean ...
=0A
=0AThanks for the good info!
=0A
=0AWilliam
=0A
=0AAt 08:47 AM 2/25/2010, you wrote:
=0A=0AThere is an internal "valve" in the oil pump which may remain open.
- Jill of M14P, Inc. did an excellent article in one of the recent issues
of the RPA magazine about this problem.- See the Fall of 2009 issue, pag
e 15 attached.- If this valve remains open even slightly, oil will drain
from the oil tank into the engine which may cause the hydraulic lock.--
Although Jim Kimball's oil shut off and drain kit are outstanding, the roo
t of the problem is internal to the oil pump.
=0ADennis
=0A-
=0A-
=0A-
=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message -----
=0A=0AFrom: William Halverson
=0A=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com
=0A=0ASent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:05 AM
=0A=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
=0A
t>
=0A
=0A=0ASomewhere I recall that when oil leaks from the sump, it could be an
=0A=0Aindicator the oil pump's seals are wearing out.- It that what is
=0A=0Acausing the oil to drain into the intake pipes?- Did I recall that
correctly?
=0A
=0A=0AAlso my manual calls for running the engine at about the same power
=0A=0Asetting as used for the pre-flight engine run up for about 20 seconds
=0A=0Ato suck oil out of the sump and shove it back into the oil tank.- I
=0A=0Alove it when crowds gather to see what's causing all that noise in a
=0A=0Ahangar row ....- so far the EPA truck has not showed up.
=0A
=0A=0A;-)
=0A
=0A
=0A=0AAt 11:08 PM 2/24/2010, Francois Davel wrote:
om>
=0A=0A>
=0A=0A>I can take 3 days for a Hydraulic lock to form......That translates
=0A=0A>into a lot fun flying, but a huge fuel bill.... :-(
=0A=0A>
=0A=0A>--------
=0A=0A>Round Engines nbsp;------ Navigator Photoshare, and href
=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List "> http://www.matronics=
=======================<;-
-- via the Web href=" http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matr
onics.com
=0A=0A_p;-------- generous bsp;---------
---------- href=" http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on ">http://www.matronics.com/c==============
==
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signat
ure database 4896 (20100225) __________
=0A
=0AThe message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
=0A
=0A
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronhref
="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/con
tribution
=0A=0A
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om/Navigator?Yak-List
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om/Navigator?Yak-List
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tribution
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get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: e: Yak-List: |
Makes sense.
On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:53 AM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
> Masking the problem means covering up the real problem, which is the
> valve in the oil pump which remains open and allows the oil in the
> tank to continue to drain into the engine. I did not imply a bad
> check valve design since I am certainly not qualified to make that
> statement. As end users of the engine we do know what causes the
> oil to drain into the engine and that is the result of the internal
> valve in the oil pump not closing completely for whatever reason.
> We either fix the oil pump properly (Jill's solution) or if we don't
> fix the oil pump we install the oil shut off valve which stops the
> oil from the oil tank from leaking through the internal valve in the
> oil pump and into the engine.
> Dennis
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Eric Wobschall
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 8:35 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List:
>
> Dennis:
>
> Sure, didn't mean to say that the valve could be manipulated
> remotely, only that you'd know about it, and perhaps replace the
> pump. I guess they loved to keep people working back then, so maybe
> not such a show stopper in a big governmental system.
>
> You said masking the problem... Meaning a bad check valve design,
> something that tends to clog it open a bit, or what? I'll find
> Jill's article today.
>
> -Eric
>
>
> On Feb 26, 2010, at 8:35 AM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
>
>> Eric,
>> No human being can get to the "oil pump check valve" as long as the
>> oil pump is mounted to the engine. It is internal to the oil pump.
>>
>> This problem has bounced around via the list for years. The root
>> of the problem is in the oil pump itself (as pointed out in Jill's
>> article) and the net is as long as we install any type of external
>> shut off or mechanism to drain the sump in an attempt to keep the
>> oil from pooling in the lower cylinders, we're truthfully just
>> masking the problem.
>>
>> Dennis
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Eric Wobschall
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 7:23 AM
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List:
>>
>> I don't think they do (or did) any of this stuff in the Eastern
>> Bloc. Maybe that's because circumstances were different. Judging by
>> the equipment that came with my Yak-52, these planes were intended
>> to be supported by a ground crew that we're not likely to have
>> here. Maybe the Russians had a mechanic Junior Grade with the
>> responsibility of making sure the oil pump check valve was closed.
>> Having said this, I think about balancing the prospect of a
>> hydraulic lock (when all proper procedures seem to have been
>> followed) with the risks of improvising something, even when I know
>> the re-engineers are qualified. Tough one.
>>
>> On Feb 26, 2010, at 1:08 AM, William Halverson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sounds like a filter or screen before the oil pump would keep
>>> 'stuff' out of the pump and increase the chances the internal
>>> valve stays clean ...
>>>
>>> Thanks for the good info!
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>> At 08:47 AM 2/25/2010, you wrote:
>>>> There is an internal "valve" in the oil pump which may remain
>>>> open. Jill of M14P, Inc. did an excellent article in one of the
>>>> recent issues of the RPA magazine about this problem. See the
>>>> Fall of 2009 issue, page 15 attached. If this valve remains open
>>>> even slightly, oil will drain from the oil tank into the engine
>>>> which may cause the hydraulic lock. Although Jim Kimball's oil
>>>> shut off and drain kit are outstanding, the root of the problem
>>>> is internal to the oil pump.
>>>> Dennis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: William Halverson
>>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:05 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Somewhere I recall that when oil leaks from the sump, it could be
>>>> an
>>>> indicator the oil pump's seals are wearing out. It that what is
>>>> causing the oil to drain into the intake pipes? Did I recall
>>>> that correctly?
>>>>
>>>> Also my manual calls for running the engine at about the same power
>>>> setting as used for the pre-flight engine run up for about 20
>>>> seconds
>>>> to suck oil out of the sump and shove it back into the oil tank. I
>>>> love it when crowds gather to see what's causing all that noise
>>>> in a
>>>> hangar row .... so far the EPA truck has not showed up.
>>>>
>>>> ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At 11:08 PM 2/24/2010, Francois Davel wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >I can take 3 days for a Hydraulic lock to form......That
>>>> translates
>>>> >into a lot fun flying, but a huge fuel bill.... :-(
>>>> >
>>>> >--------
>>>> >Round Engines nbsp; Navigator Photoshare, and href=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>>> "> http://
>>>> www.matronics========================<; via the
>>>> Web href=" http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> _p; generous bsp; href=" http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>> ">http://www.matronics.com/c================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>> signature database 4896 (20100225) __________
>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronhref
>>> ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>>
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronhref
>> ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/c
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: e: Yak-List: |
Makes sense.
On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:53 AM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
> Masking the problem means covering up the real problem, which is the
> valve in the oil pump which remains open and allows the oil in the
> tank to continue to drain into the engine. I did not imply a bad
> check valve design since I am certainly not qualified to make that
> statement. As end users of the engine we do know what causes the
> oil to drain into the engine and that is the result of the internal
> valve in the oil pump not closing completely for whatever reason.
> We either fix the oil pump properly (Jill's solution) or if we don't
> fix the oil pump we install the oil shut off valve which stops the
> oil from the oil tank from leaking through the internal valve in the
> oil pump and into the engine.
> Dennis
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Eric Wobschall
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 8:35 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List:
>
> Dennis:
>
> Sure, didn't mean to say that the valve could be manipulated
> remotely, only that you'd know about it, and perhaps replace the
> pump. I guess they loved to keep people working back then, so maybe
> not such a show stopper in a big governmental system.
>
> You said masking the problem... Meaning a bad check valve design,
> something that tends to clog it open a bit, or what? I'll find
> Jill's article today.
>
> -Eric
>
>
> On Feb 26, 2010, at 8:35 AM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
>
>> Eric,
>> No human being can get to the "oil pump check valve" as long as the
>> oil pump is mounted to the engine. It is internal to the oil pump.
>>
>> This problem has bounced around via the list for years. The root
>> of the problem is in the oil pump itself (as pointed out in Jill's
>> article) and the net is as long as we install any type of external
>> shut off or mechanism to drain the sump in an attempt to keep the
>> oil from pooling in the lower cylinders, we're truthfully just
>> masking the problem.
>>
>> Dennis
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Eric Wobschall
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 7:23 AM
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List:
>>
>> I don't think they do (or did) any of this stuff in the Eastern
>> Bloc. Maybe that's because circumstances were different. Judging by
>> the equipment that came with my Yak-52, these planes were intended
>> to be supported by a ground crew that we're not likely to have
>> here. Maybe the Russians had a mechanic Junior Grade with the
>> responsibility of making sure the oil pump check valve was closed.
>> Having said this, I think about balancing the prospect of a
>> hydraulic lock (when all proper procedures seem to have been
>> followed) with the risks of improvising something, even when I know
>> the re-engineers are qualified. Tough one.
>>
>> On Feb 26, 2010, at 1:08 AM, William Halverson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sounds like a filter or screen before the oil pump would keep
>>> 'stuff' out of the pump and increase the chances the internal
>>> valve stays clean ...
>>>
>>> Thanks for the good info!
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>> At 08:47 AM 2/25/2010, you wrote:
>>>> There is an internal "valve" in the oil pump which may remain
>>>> open. Jill of M14P, Inc. did an excellent article in one of the
>>>> recent issues of the RPA magazine about this problem. See the
>>>> Fall of 2009 issue, page 15 attached. If this valve remains open
>>>> even slightly, oil will drain from the oil tank into the engine
>>>> which may cause the hydraulic lock. Although Jim Kimball's oil
>>>> shut off and drain kit are outstanding, the root of the problem
>>>> is internal to the oil pump.
>>>> Dennis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: William Halverson
>>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:05 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Somewhere I recall that when oil leaks from the sump, it could be
>>>> an
>>>> indicator the oil pump's seals are wearing out. It that what is
>>>> causing the oil to drain into the intake pipes? Did I recall
>>>> that correctly?
>>>>
>>>> Also my manual calls for running the engine at about the same power
>>>> setting as used for the pre-flight engine run up for about 20
>>>> seconds
>>>> to suck oil out of the sump and shove it back into the oil tank. I
>>>> love it when crowds gather to see what's causing all that noise
>>>> in a
>>>> hangar row .... so far the EPA truck has not showed up.
>>>>
>>>> ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At 11:08 PM 2/24/2010, Francois Davel wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >I can take 3 days for a Hydraulic lock to form......That
>>>> translates
>>>> >into a lot fun flying, but a huge fuel bill.... :-(
>>>> >
>>>> >--------
>>>> >Round Engines nbsp; Navigator Photoshare, and href=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>>> "> http://
>>>> www.matronics========================<; via the
>>>> Web href=" http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> _p; generous bsp; href=" http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>> ">http://www.matronics.com/c================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>> signature database 4896 (20100225) __________
>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronhref
>>> ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>>
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronhref
>> ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/c
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Shut Valve |
Bryon, I have an outfit across from my airport that seems to have
every O-ring known to man, including those with that "carbon" spec
which is suitable for fuel and oil. If you give me dimensions, I can
probably get some samples. If interested, contact me off-list. -Eric
On Feb 26, 2010, at 12:30 PM, Byron Fox wrote:
> The valve used in Bill Blackwell's kit was manufacted in the
> mid-1950s for C-130s and Sikorsky H-37s. So I have learned from
> Whittaker Controls,an LA based firm, that built them. Sadly, they no
> longer make the valve. However, Whittaker is willing to overhaul the
> valve for just......wait for it........$3,790.00!! Yes, that's about
> $4,000. Moreover, Whittaker won't sell just the O-rings and internal
> seals for "liability. concerns." I'm currently begging them just for
> the part numbers so that I might acquire the seals for my leaking
> valve elsewhere. Just a bit frustrating.
> ...Blitz
>
> Sent from my worlds.
>
>> No. This set up was done by Bill Blackwell. It works the same way
>> though. This unite is opened and closed electrically. There is a
>> micro switch built into the valve itself - independent of the power
>> that drive the valve motor. Does the same thing.
>> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Eric Wobschall <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Fri, Feb 26, 2010 9:38 am
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List:
>>
>> That's the Kimball valve with a microswitch starter lockout and a
>> Bowden cable to control it?
>>
>>
>> On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:06 AM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Whatever you do do not put a filter on the line going INTO the
>>> engine. This was done and the gentleman almost lost his engine
>>> due to low oil pressure. This pump is not a good "sucker." The
>>> screen is there to take out "Big pieces", not to empted the oil
>>> flow.
>>>
>>> Putting a filter on the out line, keeps the entire system cleaner
>>> i.e., lines, oil cooler (more efficient), and tank. Because the
>>> oil is thinned out from the heat, it goes though the filter
>>> easier. Also a 10 micron filter removes almost all of the ware
>>> causing particulates.
>>>
>>> A oil tank shut off valve has been on my engine 1,500 hours now.
>>> I've never had a hydraulic lock and there ain' no oil on my hangar
>>> floor.
>>>
>>> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Sent: Fri, Feb 26, 2010 8:35 am
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List:
>>>
>>> Eric,
>>> No human being can get to the "oil pump check valve" as long as
>>> the oil pump is mounted to the engine. It is internal to the oil
>>> pump.
>>>
>>> This problem has bounced around via the list for years. The root
>>> of the problem is in the oil pump itself (as pointed out in Jill's
>>> article) and the net is as long as we install any type of external
>>> shut off or mechanism to drain the sump in an attempt to keep the
>>> oil from pooling in the lower cylinders, we're truthfully just
>>> masking the problem.
>>>
>>> Dennis
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Eric Wobschall
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 7:23 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List:
>>>
>>> I don't think they do (or did) any of this stuff in the Eastern
>>> Bloc. Maybe that's because circumstances were different. Judging
>>> by the equipment that came with my Yak-52, these planes were
>>> intended to be supported by a ground crew that we're not likely to
>>> have here. Maybe the Russians had a mechanic Junior Grade with the
>>> responsibility of making sure the oil pump check valve was closed.
>>> Having said this, I think about balancing the prospect of a
>>> hydraulic lock (when all proper procedures seem to have been
>>> followed) with the risks of improvising something, even when I
>>> know the re-engineers are qualified. Tough one.
>>>
>>> On Feb 26, 2010, at 1:08 AM, William Halverson wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sounds like a filter or screen before the oil pump would keep
>>>> 'stuff' out of the pump and increase the chances the internal
>>>> valve stays clean ...
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the good info!
>>>>
>>>> William
>>>>
>>>> At 08:47 AM 2/25/2010, you wrote:
>>>>> There is an internal "valve" in the oil pump which may remain
>>>>> open. Jill of M14P, Inc. did an excellent article in one of the
>>>>> recent issues of the RPA magazine about this problem. See the
>>>>> Fall of 2009 issue, page 15 attached. If this valve remains
>>>>> open even slightly, oil will drain from the oil tank into the
>>>>> engine which may cause the hydraulic lock. Although Jim
>>>>> Kimball's oil shut off and drain kit are outstanding, the root
>>>>> of the problem is internal to the oil pump.
>>>>> Dennis
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: William Halverson
>>>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:05 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> Somewhere I recall that when oil leaks from the sump, it could
>>>>> be an
>>>>> indicator the oil pump's seals are wearing out. It that what is
>>>>> causing the oil to drain into the intake pipes? Did I recall
>>>>> that correctly?
>>>>>
>>>>> Also my manual calls for running the engine at about the same
>>>>> power
>>>>> setting as used for the pre-flight engine run up for about 20
>>>>> seconds
>>>>> to suck oil out of the sump and shove it back into the oil
>>>>> tank. I
>>>>> love it when crowds gather to see what's causing all that noise
>>>>> in a
>>>>> hangar row .... so far the EPA truck has not showed up.
>>>>>
>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> At 11:08 PM 2/24/2010, Francois Davel wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >I can take 3 days for a Hydraulic lock to form......That
>>>>> translates
>>>>> >into a lot fun flying, but a huge fuel bill.... :-(
>>>>> >
>>>>> >--------
>>>>> >Round Engines nbsp; Navigator Photoshare, and href=" http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>>>> "> http://www.matronics========================<; via the
>>>>> Web href=" http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>>> _p; generous bsp; href=" http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>> ">http://www.matronics.com/c================
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of
>>>>> virus signature database 4896 (20100225) __________
>>>>>
>>>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronhref
>>>> ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>>>
>>>
>>> get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>> _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ===================================
>> get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> ===================================
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> ===================================
>> _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ===================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
Keep in mind.. Even with an oil shut-off valve, the splash and ported oil i
n the top cylinders and gears will still drip down to the lowest point in t
he engine.- So the long and short is.. You must always pull your engine t
hrough, with of without and external mods.
Larry Pine
=0A=0A=0A
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Shut Valve |
Oh Blitz baby, don't tell me things like that. ("Please dear Lord, let it
keep working for another season".)
Pappy
-----Original Message-----
From: Byron Fox <byronmfox@gmail.com>
Sent: Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:30 pm
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Oil Shut Valve
The valve used in Bill Blackwell's kit was manufacted in the mid-1950s for
C-130s and Sikorsky H-37s. So I have learned from
Whittaker Controls,an LA based firm, that built them. Sadly, they no longe
r make the valve. However, Whittaker is willing to overhaul the valve for
just......wait for it........$3,790.00!! Yes, that's about $4,000. Moreov
er, Whittaker won't sell just the O-rings and internal seals for "liabilit
y. concerns." I'm currently begging them just for the part numbers so that
I might acquire the seals for my leaking valve elsewhere. Just a bit frus
trating.
...Blitz
Sent from my worlds.
No. This set up was done by Bill Blackwell. It works the same way though
. This unite is opened and closed electrically. There is a micro switch
built into the valve itself - independent of the power that drive the val
ve motor. Does the same thing.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Wobschall <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
Sent: Fri, Feb 26, 2010 9:38 am
Subject: Re: Yak-List:
That's the Kimball valve with a microswitch starter lockout and a Bowden
cable to control it?
On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:06 AM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
Whatever you do do not put a filter on the line going INTO the engine. Th
is was done and the gentleman almost lost his engine due to low oil pressu
re. This pump is not a good "sucker." The screen is there to take out "B
ig pieces", not to empted the oil flow.
Putting a filter on the out line, keeps the entire system cleaner i.e., li
nes, oil cooler (more efficient), and tank. Because the oil is thinned ou
t from the heat, it goes though the filter easier. Also a 10 micron filte
r removes almost all of the ware causing particulates.
A oil tank shut off valve has been on my engine 1,500 hours now. I've nev
er had a hydraulic lock and there ain' no oil on my hangar floor.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
-----Original Message-----
From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Fri, Feb 26, 2010 8:35 am
Subject: Re: Yak-List:
Eric,
No human being can get to the "oil pump check valve" as long as the oil pu
mp is mounted to the engine. It is internal to the oil pump.
This problem has bounced around via the list for years. The root of the
problem is in the oil pump itself (as pointed out in Jill's article) and
the net is as long as we install any type of external shut off or mechani
sm to drain the sump in an attempt to keep the oil from pooling in the low
er cylinders, we're truthfully just masking the problem.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Wobschall
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List:
I don't think they do (or did) any of this stuff in the Eastern Bloc. Mayb
e that's because circumstances were different. Judging by the equipment th
at came with my Yak-52, these planes were intended to be supported by a gr
ound crew that we're not likely to have here. Maybe the Russians had a mec
hanic Junior Grade with the responsibility of making sure the oil pump che
ck valve was closed. Having said this, I think about balancing the prospec
t of a hydraulic lock (when all proper procedures seem to have been follow
ed) with the risks of improvising something, even when I know the re-engin
eers are qualified. Tough one.
On Feb 26, 2010, at 1:08 AM, William Halverson wrote:
Sounds like a filter or screen before the oil pump would keep 'stuff' out
of the pump and increase the chances the internal valve stays clean ...
Thanks for the good info!
William
At 08:47 AM 2/25/2010, you wrote:
There is an internal "valve" in the oil pump which may remain open. Jill
of M14P, Inc. did an excellent article in one of the recent issues of the
RPA magazine about this problem. See the Fall of 2009 issue, page 15 att
ached. If this valve remains open even slightly, oil will drain from the
oil tank into the engine which may cause the hydraulic lock. Although
Jim Kimball's oil shut off and drain kit are outstanding, the root of the
problem is internal to the oil pump.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: William Halverson
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
Somewhere I recall that when oil leaks from the sump, it could be an
indicator the oil pump's seals are wearing out. It that what is
causing the oil to drain into the intake pipes? Did I recall that correct
ly?
Also my manual calls for running the engine at about the same power
setting as used for the pre-flight engine run up for about 20 seconds
to suck oil out of the sump and shove it back into the oil tank. I
love it when crowds gather to see what's causing all that noise in a
hangar row .... so far the EPA truck has not showed up.
;-)
At 11:08 PM 2/24/2010, Francois Davel wrote:
>
>I can take 3 days for a Hydraulic lock to form......That translates
>into a lot fun flying, but a huge fuel bill.... :-(
>
>--------
>Round Engines nbsp; Navigator Photoshare, and href=" http://www.m
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