Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:09 AM - Interesting scenario (Bradly Banks)
2. 11:06 AM - Re: Interesting scenario (Brian Lloyd)
3. 11:30 AM - Re: Interesting scenario (bill wade)
4. 12:26 PM - Re: Interesting scenario (Walter Lannon)
5. 12:40 PM - Re: Interesting scenario (Walter Lannon)
6. 01:03 PM - Re: Interesting scenario (Roger Kemp M.D.)
7. 01:18 PM - Re: Interesting scenario (Roger Kemp M.D.)
8. 05:29 PM - Re: Interesting scenario (Dale)
9. 07:34 PM - Re: Interesting scenario (Walter Lannon)
10. 10:09 PM - Re: Interesting scenario (Bradly Banks)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Interesting scenario |
Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late
evening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the engine
stopped due to fuel starvation.. In the POH the Russians suggest that the
fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out position when cold
starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake. Pg 16 /20
{http://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
1) Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake
bypassing the carb system
2) Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel back
into the tank?
3) Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by allowing
unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a better
choice of emergency landing?
4) How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a result of
the gears disengaging ?
Bradly Banks
Cell:0825083200
Tel :0333308580
Email :brad@runawaymedia.co.za
Skype: brad.banks10
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting scenario |
On Sunday, September 9, 2012, Bradly Banks wrote:
>
> Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late
> evening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
>
We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the engine
> stopped due to fuel starvation=85. In the POH the Russians suggest that
the
> fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out position when cold
> starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake. Pg 16 /20 {
> http://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}****
>
> **1) **Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake
> bypassing the carb system****
>
yes.
> **2) **Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel
> back into the tank?****
>
Yes, but if you reduce throttle until MAP is below ambient pressure, fuel
will flow into the induction system.
> **3) **Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by
> allowing unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a
> better choice of emergency landing? ****
>
Probably. In fact, there is likely a throttle position that will provide
proper mixture and power sufficient for level flight.
> **4) **How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a
> result of the gears disengaging ?****
>
Who knows. Could be 5 minutes, could be 30. But I would bet you could go at
least 5.
At a form clinic at Deer Valley a number of years ago a Yak52 dumped all
it's oil overboard. The first hint the pilot had was the prop going into
coarse pitch. He then proceeded to fly back to the airport with no oil
pressure, something like 10 minutes. Not only did the engine NOT sieze
there was no sign of damage at all. Last I heard, it was still flying.
Modern oils really are quite amazing.
>
>
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting scenario |
Bradly I remember a story of a new Yak 52 owner ferrying his new to him air
plane back east from Ca and what=C2-I recall is that=C2-on a straight i
n final=C2-to one of the airports the engine quit due to fuel starvation
and he pumped enough fuel through the primer to make the airport.=0AIt kind
of makes since as the header tank would have at least two gals of fuel in
it cause it draws fuel from the top of the tank in upright flight (bottom -
inverted)and the primer draws from the bottom (I think). But I also think
you would have to pump the primer,=C2-although if you don't center the pr
imer in normal flight it sure does run rich.=0AWe would need a diagram of t
he fuel system and header tank, Dennis=0AAs for the oil pressure there is a
video of a Yak 50 in England that ran out of oil it didn't last long.=0ABi
ll Wade=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Bradly Banks <br
ad@runawaymedia.co.za>=0ATo: Yak-List Digest Server <yak-list@matronics.com
> =0ASent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 1:05 PM=0ASubject: Yak-List: Interesti
ng scenario =0A =0A=0A =0AHello All , here is an interesting scenario that
has come up=0Ain the late evening discussions whilst chewing the cud. =0AW
e all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and=0Athat the engine
stopped due to =C2-fuel starvation. In the POH the Russians=0Asu
ggest that the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out=C2-=0A
position when cold starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake. Pg
16=0A/20=C2-=C2-=C2- {http://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d14884
9914} =0A1)=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- Would this allow fuel to be sucke
d directly into the=0Aintake bypassing the carb system =0A2)=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2- Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the=0Af
uel back into the tank? =0A3)=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- Could the aircr
aft have been given a few vital minutes=0Aby allowing unrestricted fuel int
o the intake, for the Pilot to have made a=0Abetter choice of emergency lan
ding? =0A4)=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- How long could the engine run wi
th out oil pressure as=0Aa result of the gears disengaging ? =0A=C2- =0AB
radly=0ABanks =0ACell:0825083200 =0ATel=0A:0333308580 =0AEmail=0A:brad@runa
=====
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting scenario |
Bradly;
It is an interesting scenario;
My answer to question one is no. However, this is based on the
assumption (always a bad idea =93 but here I go again) that the
Yak 52 in this regard is plumbed the same as the CJ6. The CJ uses the
identical engine primer with the notable exception that the RH outlet is
directly by-passed to the LH outlet so that selection of either side
delivers primer fuel to the intake manifold.
Emergency fuel is provided by a hand operated wobble pump delivering
fuel to the engine driven pump. If the engine driven pump is static
(failed) fuel is delivered to the carburetor through an internal bypass
valve in the engine driven pump. Both the Huosai and the M14P engine
driven pumps APPEAR identical. But if that is not the case and the
Russian one does not have an internal bypass (unlikely) then all M14P
installations in the CJ will be without an emergency fuel supply.
If the Yak 52 is plumbed to deliver EMERGENCY fuel directly to the
intake manifold then my answer is wrong.
Walt
From: Bradly Banks
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 10:05 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Interesting scenario
Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late
evening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the
engine stopped due to fuel starvation. In the POH the Russians
suggest that the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out
position when cold starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake.
Pg 16 /20 {http://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
1) Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake
bypassing the carb system
2) Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel
back into the tank?
3) Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by
allowing unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a
better choice of emergency landing?
4) How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a result
of the gears disengaging ?
Bradly Banks
Cell:0825083200
Tel :0333308580
Email :brad@runawaymedia.co.za
Skype: brad.banks10
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting scenario |
Again, showing my total ignorance of the Yak 52 fuel system, I would
point out that the CJ6 header tank will deliver down to zero fuel (maybe
a few cc=99s left) even though the fuel out port is located at the
mid-tank position. The internal design is such that for all practical
purpose there is zero fuel remaining.
Walt
From: bill wade
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Interesting scenario
Bradly I remember a story of a new Yak 52 owner ferrying his new to him
airplane back east from Ca and what I recall is that on a straight in
final to one of the airports the engine quit due to fuel starvation and
he pumped enough fuel through the primer to make the airport.
It kind of makes since as the header tank would have at least two gals
of fuel in it cause it draws fuel from the top of the tank in upright
flight (bottom - inverted)and the primer draws from the bottom (I
think). But I also think you would have to pump the primer, although if
you don't center the primer in normal flight it sure does run rich.
We would need a diagram of the fuel system and header tank, Dennis
As for the oil pressure there is a video of a Yak 50 in England that ran
out of oil it didn't last long.
Bill Wade
From: Bradly Banks <brad@runawaymedia.co.za>
Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 1:05 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Interesting scenario
Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late
evening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the
engine stopped due to fuel starvation. In the POH the Russians
suggest that the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out
position when cold starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake.
Pg 16 /20 {http://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
1) Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake
bypassing the carb system
2) Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel
back into the tank?
3) Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by
allowing unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a
better choice of emergency landing?
4) How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a result
of the gears disengaging ?
Bradly Banks
Cell:0825083200
Tel :0333308580
Email :brad@runawaymedia.co.za
Skype: brad.banks10
< font>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting scenario |
Yak 52 and yak 50 are plumbed for when Cyl is selected ( left for 50 and R f
or
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 9, 2012, at 2:23 PM, "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Bradly;
>
> It is an interesting scenario;
>
> My answer to question one is no. However, this is based on the assumption
(always a bad idea =93 but here I go again) that the Yak 52 in this r
egard is plumbed the same as the CJ6. The CJ uses the identical engine prim
er with the notable exception that the RH outlet is directly by-passed to th
e LH outlet so that selection of either side delivers primer fuel to the int
ake manifold.
>
> Emergency fuel is provided by a hand operated wobble pump delivering fuel t
o the engine driven pump. If the engine driven pump is static (failed) fuel
is delivered to the carburetor through an internal bypass valve in the engi
ne driven pump. Both the Huosai and the M14P engine driven pumps APPEAR id
entical. But if that is not the case and the Russian one does not have an i
nternal bypass (unlikely) then all M14P installations in the CJ will be with
out an emergency fuel supply.
>
> If the Yak 52 is plumbed to deliver EMERGENCY fuel directly to the intake m
anifold then my answer is wrong.
>
> Walt
>
> From: Bradly Banks
> Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 10:05 AM
> To: Yak-List Digest Server
> Subject: Yak-List: Interesting scenario
>
> Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late e
vening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
> We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the engine s
topped due to fuel starvation. In the POH the Russians suggest tha
t the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out position when col
d starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake. Pg 16 /20 {http://
ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
> 1) Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake bypass
ing the carb system
> 2) Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel back i
nto the tank?
> 3) Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by allowing
unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a better choi
ce of emergency landing?
> 4) How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a result of
the gears disengaging ?
>
> Bradly Banks
> Cell:0825083200
> Tel :0333308580
> Email :brad@runawaymedia.co.za
> Skype: brad.banks10
>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?Yak-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
==========================
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>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting scenario |
Well that was nice! iPad strikes again. You can keep the engine running with
the cylinder side selected.
Takes a lot of work! Rotating the primer to Syst. Side pressurizes the syste
m. Helps prime the fuel pump.
It is extremely rare for the accessory drive plenary gears to fail unless th
e entire drive shaft from the master
Crank through the supercharger shears. Very rare. It is possible for the spl
ined drive shaft for the oil pump and the fuel pump to shear.Thereby losing b
oth pumps. Again very rare. Dave Harcourt had it happen and did exactly as t
he handbook stated. He had his student in the front seat pump like hall whil
e he flew the AC back to the airport.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 9, 2012, at 2:23 PM, "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Bradly;
>
> It is an interesting scenario;
>
> My answer to question one is no. However, this is based on the assumption
(always a bad idea =93 but here I go again) that the Yak 52 in this r
egard is plumbed the same as the CJ6. The CJ uses the identical engine prim
er with the notable exception that the RH outlet is directly by-passed to th
e LH outlet so that selection of either side delivers primer fuel to the int
ake manifold.
>
> Emergency fuel is provided by a hand operated wobble pump delivering fuel t
o the engine driven pump. If the engine driven pump is static (failed) fuel
is delivered to the carburetor through an internal bypass valve in the engi
ne driven pump. Both the Huosai and the M14P engine driven pumps APPEAR id
entical. But if that is not the case and the Russian one does not have an i
nternal bypass (unlikely) then all M14P installations in the CJ will be with
out an emergency fuel supply.
>
> If the Yak 52 is plumbed to deliver EMERGENCY fuel directly to the intake m
anifold then my answer is wrong.
>
> Walt
>
> From: Bradly Banks
> Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 10:05 AM
> To: Yak-List Digest Server
> Subject: Yak-List: Interesting scenario
>
> Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late e
vening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
> We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the engine s
topped due to fuel starvation. In the POH the Russians suggest tha
t the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out position when col
d starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake. Pg 16 /20 {http://
ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
> 1) Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake bypass
ing the carb system
> 2) Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel back i
nto the tank?
> 3) Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by allowing
unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a better choi
ce of emergency landing?
> 4) How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a result of
the gears disengaging ?
>
> Bradly Banks
> Cell:0825083200
> Tel :0333308580
> Email :brad@runawaymedia.co.za
> Skype: brad.banks10
>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?Yak-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
==========================
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=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting scenario |
Yak has check valves in the primer to allow one way fuel flow otherwise the primer
would not work when you pull out the plunger. So supercharger can not pressurize
the system. If the check valves get gummed up the primer does not work
worth a crap either and you can take them out and clean them.
You can pull the plunger out for starting and leave it there if you need a shot
of prime while starting but will not run by just leaving it open unless you
have a electric fuel pump in series before the primer line providing fuel pressure
to unseat the check valve.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382775#382775
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting scenario |
Thanks Doc;
So the system operation is the same as the CJ6 with the exception of the
emergency pump type. Primer fuel is injected into the intake manifold
and emergency fuel is delivered to the carburettor via the engine driven
pump bypass valve. That is as it should be.
Walt
From: Roger Kemp M.D.
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Interesting scenario
Well that was nice! iPad strikes again. You can keep the engine running
with the cylinder side selected.
Takes a lot of work! Rotating the primer to Syst. Side pressurizes the
system. Helps prime the fuel pump.
It is extremely rare for the accessory drive plenary gears to fail
unless the entire drive shaft from the master
Crank through the supercharger shears. Very rare. It is possible for the
splined drive shaft for the oil pump and the fuel pump to shear.Thereby
losing both pumps. Again very rare. Dave Harcourt had it happen and did
exactly as the handbook stated. He had his student in the front seat
pump like hall while he flew the AC back to the airport.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 9, 2012, at 2:23 PM, "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@shaw.ca> wrote:
Bradly;
It is an interesting scenario;
My answer to question one is no. However, this is based on the
assumption (always a bad idea =93 but here I go again) that the
Yak 52 in this regard is plumbed the same as the CJ6. The CJ uses the
identical engine primer with the notable exception that the RH outlet is
directly by-passed to the LH outlet so that selection of either side
delivers primer fuel to the intake manifold.
Emergency fuel is provided by a hand operated wobble pump delivering
fuel to the engine driven pump. If the engine driven pump is static
(failed) fuel is delivered to the carburetor through an internal bypass
valve in the engine driven pump. Both the Huosai and the M14P engine
driven pumps APPEAR identical. But if that is not the case and the
Russian one does not have an internal bypass (unlikely) then all M14P
installations in the CJ will be without an emergency fuel supply.
If the Yak 52 is plumbed to deliver EMERGENCY fuel directly to the
intake manifold then my answer is wrong.
Walt
From: Bradly Banks
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 10:05 AM
To: Yak-List Digest Server
Subject: Yak-List: Interesting scenario
Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the
late evening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the
engine stopped due to fuel starvation. In the POH the Russians
suggest that the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out
position when cold starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake.
Pg 16 /20 {http://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
1) Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake
bypassing the carb system
2) Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel
back into the tank?
3) Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by
allowing unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a
better choice of emergency landing?
4) How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a
result of the gears disengaging ?
Bradly Banks
Cell:0825083200
Tel :0333308580
Email :brad@runawaymedia.co.za
Skype: brad.banks10
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
=========
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=========
cs.com
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Interesting scenario |
Hello Doc, and all who have added their comments, the retaining bolts
that hold the brass /bronze bushing in place setting up the
=9Clash=9D between the bevel gears , slowly worked
themselves loose and the gap eventually got too large to drive the oil
and fuel systems.(result of a tab plate not correctly bent).
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp
M.D.
Sent: 09 September 2012 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Interesting scenario
Well that was nice! iPad strikes again. You can keep the engine running
with the cylinder side selected.
Takes a lot of work! Rotating the primer to Syst. Side pressurizes the
system. Helps prime the fuel pump.
It is extremely rare for the accessory drive plenary gears to fail
unless the entire drive shaft from the master
Crank through the supercharger shears. Very rare. It is possible for the
splined drive shaft for the oil pump and the fuel pump to shear.Thereby
losing both pumps. Again very rare. Dave Harcourt had it happen and did
exactly as the handbook stated. He had his student in the front seat
pump like hall while he flew the AC back to the airport.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 9, 2012, at 2:23 PM, "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@shaw.ca> wrote:
Bradly;
It is an interesting scenario;
My answer to question one is no. However, this is based on the
assumption (always a bad idea =93 but here I go again) that the
Yak 52 in this regard is plumbed the same as the CJ6. The CJ uses the
identical engine primer with the notable exception that the RH outlet is
directly by-passed to the LH outlet so that selection of either side
delivers primer fuel to the intake manifold.
Emergency fuel is provided by a hand operated wobble pump delivering
fuel to the engine driven pump. If the engine driven pump is static
(failed) fuel is delivered to the carburetor through an internal bypass
valve in the engine driven pump. Both the Huosai and the M14P engine
driven pumps APPEAR identical. But if that is not the case and the
Russian one does not have an internal bypass (unlikely) then all M14P
installations in the CJ will be without an emergency fuel supply.
If the Yak 52 is plumbed to deliver EMERGENCY fuel directly to the
intake manifold then my answer is wrong.
Walt
From: Bradly <mailto:brad@runawaymedia.co.za> Banks
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 10:05 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Interesting scenario
Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late
evening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the
engine stopped due to fuel starvation. In the POH the Russians
suggest that the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out
position when cold starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake.
Pg 16 /20 {http://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
1) Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake
bypassing the carb system
2) Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel
back into the tank?
3) Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by
allowing unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a
better choice of emergency landing?
4) How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a result
of the gears disengaging ?
Bradly Banks
Cell:0825083200
Tel :0333308580
Email :brad@runawaymedia.co.za
Skype: brad.banks10
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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