Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:24 AM - Re: Interesting scenario (Richard Goode)
2. 05:14 AM - Re: Interesting scenario (cjpilot710@aol.com)
3. 07:57 AM - Re: Re: Interesting scenario (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
4. 09:28 AM - Re: Re: Interesting scenario (Bradly Banks)
5. 03:16 PM - Re: Interesting scenario (=?utf-8?Q?H=C3=A5vard_Dale?=)
6. 07:50 PM - Re: Interesting scenario (Roger Kemp M.D.)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Interesting scenario |
You are wrong about the UK Yak 50, which we are currently restoring.
All the oil fell out due to the pressure-release valve not being wire-locke
d, and the engine lasted about 3 min after the pilot noticed the problem, b
ut probably at least 10 min without oil before he did.
When the engine finally seized, it was with sufficient violence to break th
e propeller shaft, and most of the piston-rings were actually welded into t
he cylinders and immovable!
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@mat
ronics.com] On Behalf Of bill wade
Sent: 09 September 2012 19:28
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Interesting scenario
Bradly I remember a story of a new Yak 52 owner ferrying his new to him air
plane back east from Ca and what I recall is that on a straight in final to
one of the airports the engine quit due to fuel starvation and he pumped e
nough fuel through the primer to make the airport.
It kind of makes since as the header tank would have at least two gals of f
uel in it cause it draws fuel from the top of the tank in upright flight (b
ottom - inverted)and the primer draws from the bottom (I think). But I also
think you would have to pump the primer, although if you don't center the
primer in normal flight it sure does run rich.
We would need a diagram of the fuel system and header tank, Dennis
As for the oil pressure there is a video of a Yak 50 in England that ran ou
t of oil it didn't last long.
Bill Wade
From: Bradly Banks <brad@runawaymedia.co.za>
Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 1:05 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Interesting scenario
Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late ev
ening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the engine s
topped due to fuel starvation. In the POH the Russians suggest th
at the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out position when c
old starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake. Pg 16 /20 {http
://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
1) Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake bypassi
ng the carb system
2) Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel back i
nto the tank?
3) Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by allowing
unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a better choi
ce of emergency landing?
4) How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a result of
the gears disengaging ?
Bradly Banks
Cell:0825083200
Tel :0333308580
Email :brad@runawaymedia.co.za
Skype: brad.banks10
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting scenario |
We had an oil line failure on an M-14 powered CJ-6, which seized on the his
down wind leg for landing (talk about luck!). A number of connecting rods
failed, plus the prop shaft sheared right behind the reduction gears.
There lots of evidence of over heating on the bent connecting rods too. T
he
pilot isn't sure how long he went without oil pressure. Over age oil
lines was the cause.
Over the years I heard many different stories (maybe somewhat outlandish)
about engine running HOURS without oil pressure, I would not count on it no
r
expect an engine to last minutes with failed pressure. It all depends as
they say. You may have to just enough time to pick a good spot or (over
mountains at night) make a call and hit the silk when it quits.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 9/10/2012 3:24:46 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
richard.goode@russianaeros.com writes:
You are wrong about the UK Yak 50, which we are currently restoring.
All the oil fell out due to the pressure-release valve not being
wire-locked, and the engine lasted about 3 min after the pilot noticed the
problem,
but probably at least 10 min without oil before he did.
When the engine finally seized, it was with sufficient violence to break
the propeller shaft, and most of the piston-rings were actually welded int
o
the cylinders and immovable!
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bill wade
Sent: 09 September 2012 19:28
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Interesting scenario
Bradly I remember a story of a new Yak 52 owner ferrying his new to him
airplane back east from Ca and what I recall is that on a straight in fin
al
to one of the airports the engine quit due to fuel starvation and he pumpe
d
enough fuel through the primer to make the airport.
It kind of makes since as the header tank would have at least two gals of
fuel in it cause it draws fuel from the top of the tank in upright flight
(bottom - inverted)and the primer draws from the bottom (I think). But I
also think you would have to pump the primer, although if you don't center
the
primer in normal flight it sure does run rich.
We would need a diagram of the fuel system and header tank, Dennis
As for the oil pressure there is a video of a Yak 50 in England that ran
out of oil it didn't last long.
Bill Wade
From: Bradly Banks <_brad@runawaymedia.co.za_
(mailto:brad@runawaymedia.co.za) >
(mailto:yak-list@matronics.com) >
Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 1:05 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Interesting scenario
Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late
evening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the engine
stopped due to fuel starvation. In the POH the Russians suggest
that the
fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out position when cold
starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake. Pg 16 /20
{http://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
1) Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake
bypassing the carb system
2) Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel back
into the tank?
3) Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by
allowing unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a b
etter
choice of emergency landing?
4) How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a result
of the gears disengaging ?
Bradly Banks
Cell:0825083200
Tel :0333308580
Email :brad@runawaymedia.co.za
Skype: brad.banks10
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting scenario |
One minor addition to that Dale,
In a Yak, if you pull the plunger out (or leave it in for that matter)
and have it turned towards "Cylinders", fuel will indeed be sucked
through the primer pump system by engine induction vacuum and will
richen the mixture slightly even without pumping. The engine vacuum
alone will unseat the check valve you are speaking about at idle. This
is easily confirmed; Simply try it. You will see the engine RPM
decrease slightly, and the engine may run a tad rough from the overly
rich mixture. Put it back in the neutral position and it will clear
right up and idle correctly.
Once the manifold pressure exceeds ambient, this will no longer
happen.... obviously. But it will also not back-flow as per your
explanation.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 8:27 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Interesting scenario
Yak has check valves in the primer to allow one way fuel flow otherwise
the primer would not work when you pull out the plunger. So
supercharger can not pressurize the system. If the check valves get
gummed up the primer does not work worth a crap either and you can take
them out and clean them.
You can pull the plunger out for starting and leave it there if you
need a shot of prime while starting but will not run by just leaving it
open unless you have a electric fuel pump in series before the primer
line providing fuel pressure to unseat the check valve.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382775#382775
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting scenario |
Thanks Mark , nice to hear from you again
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: 10 September 2012 04:54 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Interesting scenario
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
One minor addition to that Dale,
In a Yak, if you pull the plunger out (or leave it in for that matter)
and have it turned towards "Cylinders", fuel will indeed be sucked
through the primer pump system by engine induction vacuum and will
richen the mixture slightly even without pumping. The engine vacuum
alone will unseat the check valve you are speaking about at idle. This
is easily confirmed; Simply try it. You will see the engine RPM
decrease slightly, and the engine may run a tad rough from the overly
rich mixture. Put it back in the neutral position and it will clear
right up and idle correctly.
Once the manifold pressure exceeds ambient, this will no longer
happen.... obviously. But it will also not back-flow as per your
explanation.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 8:27 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Interesting scenario
Yak has check valves in the primer to allow one way fuel flow otherwise
the primer would not work when you pull out the plunger. So
supercharger can not pressurize the system. If the check valves get
gummed up the primer does not work worth a crap either and you can take
them out and clean them.
You can pull the plunger out for starting and leave it there if you
need a shot of prime while starting but will not run by just leaving it
open unless you have a electric fuel pump in series before the primer
line providing fuel pressure to unseat the check valve.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382775#382775
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting scenario |
Hi,
Look at this one, engine failure after take off. Pilot manage to climb
out after hiting the ground with his wing and cuted some trees. Engine
did cut after fuel supply problems and Pilot primed the engine and kept
it running for a return to field.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFAfuNWSCaI
H=C3=A5vard Dale
Yaknorway
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Goode
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 9:21 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interesting scenario
You are wrong about the UK Yak 50, which we are currently restoring.
All the oil fell out due to the pressure-release valve not being
wire-locked, and the engine lasted about 3 min after the pilot noticed
the problem, but probably at least 10 min without oil before he did.
When the engine finally seized, it was with sufficient violence to
break the propeller shaft, and most of the piston-rings were actually
welded into the cylinders and immovable!
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bill wade
Sent: 09 September 2012 19:28
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Interesting scenario
Bradly I remember a story of a new Yak 52 owner ferrying his new to
him airplane back east from Ca and what I recall is that on a straight
in final to one of the airports the engine quit due to fuel starvation
and he pumped enough fuel through the primer to make the airport.
It kind of makes since as the header tank would have at least two gals
of fuel in it cause it draws fuel from the top of the tank in upright
flight (bottom - inverted)and the primer draws from the bottom (I
think). But I also think you would have to pump the primer, although if
you don't center the primer in normal flight it sure does run rich.
We would need a diagram of the fuel system and header tank, Dennis
As for the oil pressure there is a video of a Yak 50 in England that
ran out of oil it didn't last long.
Bill Wade
From: Bradly Banks <brad@runawaymedia.co.za>
To: Yak-List Digest Server <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 1:05 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Interesting scenario
Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the
late evening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the
engine stopped due to fuel starvation. In the POH the Russians
suggest that the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out
position when cold starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake.
Pg 16 /20 {http://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
1) Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake
bypassing the carb system
2) Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel
back into the tank?
3) Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by
allowing unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a
better choice of emergency landing?
4) How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a
result of the gears disengaging ?
Bradly Banks
Cell:0825083200
Tel :0333308580
Email :brad@runawaymedia.co.za
Skype: brad.banks10
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting scenario |
Roger...as said before, rare as hell for the gears in the accessory case to f
ail from metal fatigue. Human
error, now that is another issue.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 10, 2012, at 12:05 AM, "Bradly Banks" <brad@runawaymedia.co.za> wrote
:
> Hello Doc, and all who have added their comments, the retaining bolts that
hold the brass /bronze bushing in place setting up the =9Clash=9D
between the bevel gears , slowly worked themselves loose and the gap eventu
ally got too large to drive the oil and fuel systems.(result of a tab plate n
ot correctly bent).
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@ma
tronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp M.D.
> Sent: 09 September 2012 10:16 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Interesting scenario
>
> Well that was nice! iPad strikes again. You can keep the engine running wi
th the cylinder side selected.
> Takes a lot of work! Rotating the primer to Syst. Side pressurizes the sys
tem. Helps prime the fuel pump.
> It is extremely rare for the accessory drive plenary gears to fail unless t
he entire drive shaft from the master
> Crank through the supercharger shears. Very rare. It is possible for the s
plined drive shaft for the oil pump and the fuel pump to shear.Thereby losin
g both pumps. Again very rare. Dave Harcourt had it happen and did exactly a
s the handbook stated. He had his student in the front seat pump like hall w
hile he flew the AC back to the airport.
> Doc
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Sep 9, 2012, at 2:23 PM, "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> Bradly;
>
> It is an interesting scenario;
>
> My answer to question one is no. However, this is based on the assumption
(always a bad idea =93 but here I go again) that the Yak 52 in this r
egard is plumbed the same as the CJ6. The CJ uses the identical engine prim
er with the notable exception that the RH outlet is directly by-passed to th
e LH outlet so that selection of either side delivers primer fuel to the int
ake manifold.
>
> Emergency fuel is provided by a hand operated wobble pump delivering fuel t
o the engine driven pump. If the engine driven pump is static (failed) fuel
is delivered to the carburetor through an internal bypass valve in the engi
ne driven pump. Both the Huosai and the M14P engine driven pumps APPEAR id
entical. But if that is not the case and the Russian one does not have an i
nternal bypass (unlikely) then all M14P installations in the CJ will be with
out an emergency fuel supply.
>
> If the Yak 52 is plumbed to deliver EMERGENCY fuel directly to the intake m
anifold then my answer is wrong.
>
> Walt
>
> From: Bradly Banks
> Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 10:05 AM
> To: Yak-List Digest Server
> Subject: Yak-List: Interesting scenario
>
> Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late e
vening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
> We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the engine s
topped due to fuel starvation. In the POH the Russians suggest tha
t the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out position when col
d starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake. Pg 16 /20 {http://
ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
> 1) Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake bypass
ing the carb system
> 2) Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel back i
nto the tank?
> 3) Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by allowing
unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a better choi
ce of emergency landing?
> 4) How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a result of
the gears disengaging ?
>
> Bradly Banks
> Cell:0825083200
> Tel :0333308580
> Email :brad@runawaymedia.co.za
> Skype: brad.banks10
>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?Yak-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
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> cs.com
> =========================
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> matronics.com/contribution
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>
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>
>
>
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