Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:49 AM - Re: Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed (Todd McCutchan)
2. 03:29 AM - Re: Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed (Mike Beresford)
3. 04:16 AM - Re: Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed (Todd McCutchan)
4. 08:48 AM - Re: Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed (Todd McCutchan)
5. 10:23 AM - Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed (PaulW)
6. 10:56 AM - Re: Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed (Todd McCutchan)
7. 11:07 AM - Re: Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed (Walter Lannon)
8. 11:51 AM - Re: Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed (Todd McCutchan)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed |
Very interesting info Mike. Thanks for sharing.
As usual here is info also from the FAA in the form of a SAIB which directly
contradicts what they also say in FAR 23 which you have posted.
http://www.eaa.org/news/2011/ce-11-17.pdf
And straight from Far 23
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?gp=&SID=cc49468715c3314f42170e1
50777c736&n=14y1.0.1.3.10&r=PART&ty=HTML#14:1.0.1.3.10.3.70.9
(c) Design maneuvering speed VA. For VA, the following applies:
(1) VA may not be less than VS=88=9An where=94
(i) VS is a computed stalling speed with flaps retracted at the design weigh
t, normally based on the maximum airplane normal force coefficients, CNA; an
d
(ii) n is the limit maneuvering load factor used in design
(2) The value of VA need not exceed the value of VC used in design.
And
23.425 and 23.441 are specific to Va as defined above which as you stated ap
ply to horizontal and vertical tail surfaces.
AOPA gets in the mix here: http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2012/July
/feature-velocity.html
And the PHAK (Pilots Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge) by the FAA it is de
fines as "the maximum speed at which an aircraft may be stalled safely."
And then defines it again as "(Va) - the maximum speed at which the structur
al designs limit load can be imposed (either by gusts or full deflection of t
he control surfaces) without causing structural damage. It is important to c
onsider weight when referencing this speed."
And again; "Va - the calibrated design maneuvering airspeed. This is the max
imum speed at which the limit load can be imposed (either by gusts or full d
eflection of the control surfaces) without causing structural damage. Operat
ing at or below maneuvering speed does not provide structural protection aga
inst multiple full control inputs in more than one axis at the same time."
In the Airplane Flying Handbook (AFH) by the FAA it is defined as "Va - the d
esign maneuvering speed. This is the "rough air" speed and the maximum speed
for abrupt maneuvers. If during flight, rough air or severe turbulence is e
ncountered, reduce the airspeed to maneuvering speed or less to minimize str
ess on the airplane structure. It is important to consider weight when refer
encing this speed."
The US government, keeping the mud clear since the Air Commerce Act of 1926.
Of course all of this is moot as we are discussing an uncertified Russian ai
rplane. Yakovlev is really the only place I would trust to define just what t
hey meant and why the speeds are what they are.
I personally will stick to Vs x square root 7 for Va on the Yak 50/52. So as
suming 57 KIAS Vs for a 52, Va = 150.8 KIAS.
As Richard Hess also already stated, if you are pulling more than 4 - 5 g's y
ou are doing it wrong. :)
Todd McCutchan
T-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: todd@fastaircraft.com
www.fastaircraft.com
> On Jan 12, 2014, at 9:54 AM, Mike Beresford <mike_beresford@yahoo.co.uk> w
rote:
>
> Hi all
>
> Manoeuvre speed is a defined speed in the design of the aircraft, if using
standards such as FAR 23 / CS23. The Russian definition may well differ. Va
is a single speed, and does not vary with aircraft weight or CG.
>
> Although the speed is usually defined in terms of the formula Vs*=88=9A
n, this represents the minimum Va. It may be higher than that, if the design
er elects to designate a higher number. (See FAR 23.335(c)). This may well b
e the case of an aerobatic aircraft?
>
> The speed that most pilots would describe as "manoeuvre speed" is now defi
ned as "operating moneuvering speed", Vo. (See FAR 23.1507).
>
> To quote the FAA Advisory Circular (23-19):
> 48. What is the design maneuvering speed VA?
> a. The design maneuvering speed is a value chosen by the applicant. It may
not
> be less than Vs=88=9A n and need not be greater than Vc, but it could b
e greater if the applicant
> chose the higher value. The loads resulting from full control surface defl
ections at VA are
> used to design the empennage and ailerons in part 23, =C2=A7=C2=A7 23.423,
23.441, and 23.455.
>
> b. VA should not be interpreted as a speed that would permit the pilot
> unrestricted flight-control movement without exceeding airplane structural
limits, nor
> should it be interpreted as a gust penetration speed. Only if VA = Vs
=88=9An will the airplane
> stall in a nose-up pitching maneuver at, or near, limit load factor. For a
irplanes where
> VA>VS=88=9An, the pilot would have to check the maneuver; otherwise the
airplane would
> exceed the limit load factor.
>
> c. Amendment 23-45 added the operating maneuvering speed, VO, in =C2=A7 23
.1507.
> VO is established not greater than VS=88=9An, and it is a speed where t
he airplane will stall in a
> nose-up pitching maneuver before exceeding the airplane structural limits.
>
> Hopefully this doesn't complicate things too much.
>
> Blue skies
> Mike Beresford
>
>
> On Sunday, 12 January 2014, 12:47, Jim Burke <jbyak52@gmail.com> wrote:
> Good discussion. Anyone who plans to flys their airplane near max performa
nce needs to have a good understanding of the available g's in all flight r
egimes. Corner speed is probably the most critical since it gives you the s
peed for max g's. Below it and you are limited in low altitude pull outs and
other situations which could be critical.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jan 10, 2014, at 22:05, "Todd McCutchan" <todd@fastaircraft.com> wrote
:
>>
>> Please also keep in mind that stall speed (at least in USA aircraft) is c
alculated based on MTOW and farthest allowable aft CG. If you are flying at w
eights below MTOW the Va will also be lower as it decreases as weight decrea
ses (rule of thumb is 1 knot per 100 lbs).
>>
>> Again you can calculate this using the same formula if you know the lower
Vs or if Vs is unknown for the reduced weight you can calculate using <imag
e003.png>
>> Va would be the maneuvering speed you previously calculated based on MTOW
. W2 is the current weight and W1 is the MTOW.
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>> Todd McCutchan
>> Fast Aircraft
>> T-34A & Yak-50
>>
>> Cell - 260.402.1740
>>
>> Email: todd@fastaircraft.com
>> Skype: tmccutchan
>> Web: www.fastaircraft.com & www.toddmccutchanairshows.com
>>
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Todd McCutchan
>> Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 7:52 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed
>>
>> Maneuvering speed can be found mathematically. The formula is Vs (stall s
peed clean) multiplied by the square root of the g (7). If you put it into a
n excel formula it would be Vs*=88=9An where n = acceleration. You can t
hen use this to build a Vn diagram if you so choose.
>>
>> Good luck!
>> Todd McCutchan
>> Fast Aircraft
>> T-34A & Yak-50
>>
>> Cell - 260.402.1740
>>
>> Email: todd@fastaircraft.com
>> Skype: tmccutchan
>> Web: http://www.fastaircraft.com/ & http://www.toddmccutchanairshows.com
/
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Burke
>> Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 5:37 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed
>>
>>
>> Thanks but I'm looking for Va, the lowest speed at which you can generate
the max allowable (7) g.
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> > On Jan 10, 2014, at 14:32, "Etienne Verhellen" <janie@yak52.fr> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > YAKOVLEVS Maximum Manoeuvring speeds ...
>> >
>> >
>> > # Maximum Manoeuvring Speed YAK-52 : 360 KPH - 194 KTS
>> > if uou're brave enough [Exclamation] [Wink]
>> >
>> > # Maximum Manoeuvring Speed YAK-50 : 300 KPH.
>> >
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > Etienne.
>> >
>> > --------
>> > http://forums.matronics.com/files/corsair_oe_eas_and_yak_52_g_cbss_212
>> > .jpg
>> > http://ukga.com/content/view?contentId=29581
>> > http://ukga.com/images/content/image29581.jpg
>> > http://www.flyredstar.org/gallery2/Yak/Etienne%20landing%20in%20YVR.jp
>> > g
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Read this topic online here:
>> >
>> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416753#416753
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.aeroelectric.com/www.buildersbooks.comwww.homebuilthelp.comwww
.mypilotstore.comwww.mrrace.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution
">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.aeroelectric.com/http://www.buildersbooks.com/http://www.homeb
uilthelp.com/http://www.mypilotstore.com/http://www.mrrace.com/
>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> http://forums.matronics.com/
> http://www.matronics.c==================
>
>
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
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| Subject: | Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed |
Which does help muddy the water even more=C2- ;-)=0A=C2-=0AMy understan
ding is that the confusion starts because the manoeuvre speed defined in th
e design loads requirements (23.335) was not the same manoeuvre speed requi
red in the operating limitations section (23.1507). See the notice of rule
making, http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgNPRM.nsf/2ed8a
85bb3dd48e68525644900598dfb/646bfd6587baf0ad852569230061a774!OpenDocument
=0A=C2-=0AI'd guess that the SAIB is specifically aimed at aircraft with
Va instead of Vo (?)=0A=C2-=0ADoes anyone know how the Russians define Va
?=0A=C2-=0ARegards=0AMike=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=0A=0A=0A
On Sunday, 12 January 2014, 21:48, Todd McCutchan <todd@fastaircraft.com> w
rote:=0A =0AVery interesting info Mike. Thanks for sharing.=C2-=0A=0AAs
usual here is info also from the FAA in the form of a SAIB which directly c
ontradicts what they also say in FAR 23 which you have posted.=0A=0Ahttp://
www.eaa.org/news/2011/ce-11-17.pdf=0A=0AAnd straight from Far 23=0A=0Ahttp:
//www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?gp=&SID=cc49468715c3314f42170e15077
7c736&n=14y1.0.1.3.10&r=PART&ty=HTML#14:1.0.1.3.10.3.70.9=0A=0A(c)=C2
-Design maneuvering speed VA.=C2-For=C2-VA,=C2-the following applie
s:=0A(1)=C2-VA=C2-may not be less than=C2-VS=88=9An=C2-where
=94=0A(i)=C2-VS=C2-is a computed stalling speed with flaps retracted
at the design weight, normally based on the maximum airplane normal force
coefficients,=C2-CNA;=C2-and=0A(ii)=C2-n=C2-is the limit maneuverin
g load factor used in design=0A(2) The value of=C2-VA=C2-need not excee
d the value of=C2-VC=C2-used in design.=0AAnd=0A=0A23.425 and 23.441 ar
e specific to Va as defined above which as you stated apply to horizontal a
nd vertical tail surfaces.=0A=0AAOPA gets in the mix here:=C2-http://flig
httraining.aopa.org/magazine/2012/July/feature-velocity.html=0A=0AAnd the P
HAK (Pilots Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge) by the FAA it is defines as
"the maximum speed at which an aircraft may be stalled safely."=C2-=0A
=0AAnd then defines it again as "(Va) - the maximum speed at which the stru
ctural designs limit load can be imposed (either by gusts or full deflectio
n of the control surfaces) without causing structural damage. It is importa
nt to consider weight when referencing this speed."=0A=0AAnd again; "Va - t
he calibrated design maneuvering airspeed. This is the maximum speed at whi
ch the limit load can be imposed (either by gusts or full deflection of the
control surfaces) without causing structural damage. Operating at or below
maneuvering speed does not provide structural protection against multiple
full control inputs in more than one axis at the same time."=0A=0AIn the Ai
rplane Flying Handbook (AFH) by the FAA it is defined as "Va - the design m
aneuvering speed. This is the "rough air" speed and the maximum speed for a
brupt maneuvers. If during flight, rough air or severe turbulence is encoun
tered, reduce the airspeed to maneuvering speed or less to minimize stress
on the airplane structure. It is important to consider weight when referenc
ing this speed."=C2-=0A=0AThe US government, keeping the mud clear since
the Air Commerce Act of 1926.=0A=0AOf course all of this is moot as we are
discussing an uncertified Russian airplane. Yakovlev is really the only pla
ce I would trust to define just what they meant and why the speeds are what
they are.=0A=0AI personally will stick to Vs x square root 7 for Va on the
Yak 50/52. So assuming 57 KIAS Vs for a 52, Va = 150.8 KIAS.=C2-=0A=0A
As Richard Hess also already stated, if you are pulling more than 4 - 5 g's
you are doing it wrong. :)=0A=0ATodd McCutchan=0AT-34A & Yak-50=0ACell: (2
60) 402-1740=0AE-mail: todd@fastaircraft.com=0Ahttp://www.fastaircraft.com/
=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Jan 12, 2014, at 9:54 AM, Mike Beresford <mike_beresford@yah
oo.co.uk> wrote:=0A=0A=0AHi all=0A>=C2-=0A>Manoeuvre speed is a defined s
peed in the design of the aircraft, if using standards such as FAR 23 / CS2
3. The Russian definition may well differ. Va is a single speed, and does n
ot vary with aircraft weight or CG. =0A>=C2-=0A>Although the speed is usu
ally defined in terms of the formula Vs*=88=9An, this represents the min
imum Va. It may be higher than that, if the designer elects to designate=C2
-a higher number. (See FAR 23.335(c)). This may well be the case of an ae
robatic aircraft?=0A>=C2-=0A>The speed that most pilots would describe as
"manoeuvre speed" is now defined as "operating moneuvering speed", Vo. (Se
e FAR 23.1507). =0A>=C2-=0A>To quote the FAA Advisory Circular (23-19):
=0A>48. What is the design maneuvering speed VA?=0A>a. The design maneuveri
ng speed is a value chosen by the applicant. It may not=0A>be less than Vs
=88=9A n and need not be greater than Vc, but it could be greater if the
applicant=0A>chose the higher value. The loads resulting from full control
surface deflections at VA are=0A>used to design the empennage and ailerons
in part 23, =C2=A7=C2=A7 23.423, 23.441, and 23.455.=0A>=C2-=0A>b. VA sh
ould not be interpreted as a speed that would permit the pilot=0A>unrestric
ted flight-control movement without exceeding airplane structural limits, n
or=0A>should it be interpreted as a gust penetration speed. Only if VA =
Vs =88=9An will the=0A airplane=0A>stall in a nose-up pitching maneuver
at, or near, limit load factor. For airplanes where=0A>VA>VS=88=9An, the
pilot would have to check the maneuver; otherwise the airplane would=0A>ex
ceed the limit load factor.=0A>=C2-=0A>c. Amendment 23-45 added the opera
ting maneuvering speed, VO, in =C2=A7 23.1507.=0A>VO is established not gre
ater than VS=88=9An, and it is a speed where the airplane will stall in
a=0A>nose-up pitching maneuver before exceeding the airplane structural lim
its.=0A>=C2-=0A>Hopefully this doesn't complicate things too much.=0A>=C2
-=0A>Blue skies=0A>Mike Beresford=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On Sunday, 12 January 20
14, 12:47, Jim Burke <jbyak52@gmail.com> wrote:=0A> =0A>Good discussion. A
nyone who plans to flys their airplane near max performance needs to have a
good understanding of the available =C2-g's in all flight regimes. =C2
-Corner speed is probably the most critical since it gives you the speed
for max g's. Below it and you are limited in low altitude pull outs and oth
er situations which could be critical.=C2-=0A>=0A>Sent from my iPad=0A>
=0A>On Jan 10, 2014, at 22:05, "Todd McCutchan" <todd@fastaircraft.com> wro
te:=0A>=0A>=0A>Please also keep in mind that stall speed (at least in USA a
ircraft) is calculated based on MTOW and farthest allowable aft CG. If you
are flying at weights below MTOW the Va will also be lower as it decreases
as weight decreases (rule of thumb is 1 knot per 100 lbs). =0A>>=C2-=0A>>
Again you can calculate this using the same formula if you know the lower V
s or if Vs is unknown for the reduced weight you can calculate using <image
003.png>=0A>>Va would be the maneuvering speed you previously calculated ba
sed on MTOW. W2 is the current weight and W1 is the MTOW.=0A>>=C2-=0A>>Ch
eers!=0A>>=C2-=0A>>Todd McCutchan=0A>>Fast Aircraft=0A>>T-34A & Yak-50=0A
>>=C2-=0A>>Cell - 260.402.1740=0A>>=C2-=0A>>Email:=C2- todd@fastaircr
aft.com =0A>>Skype:=C2- tmccutchan=0A>>Web:=C2- www.fastaircraft.com &
www.toddmccutchanairshows.com =0A>>=C2-=0A>>From:owner-yak-list-server@ma
tronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Todd
McCutchan=0A>>Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 7:52 PM=0A>>To: yak-list@matro
nics.com=0A>>Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed=0A>>=C2-=0A
>>Maneuvering speed can be found mathematically. The formula is Vs (stall s
peed clean) multiplied by the square root of the g (7). If you put it into
an excel formula it would be Vs*=88=9An where n = acceleration. You ca
n then use this to build a Vn diagram if you so choose.=0A>>=C2-=0A>>Good
luck!=0A>>Todd McCutchan=0A>>Fast Aircraft=0A>>T-34A & Yak-50=0A>>=C2-
=0A>>Cell - 260.402.1740=0A>>=C2-=0A>>Email:=C2- todd@fastaircraft.com
=0A>>Skype:=C2- tmccutchan=0A>>Web:=C2- http://www.fastaircraft.com/ &
http://www.toddmccutchanairshows.com/ =0A>>=C2-=0A>>-----Original Message
-----=0A>>From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-
server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Burke=0A>>Sent: Friday, January 10,
2014 5:37 PM=0A>>To: yak-list@matronics.com=0A>>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re:
rke <jbyak52@gmail.com>=0A>>=C2-=0A>>Thanks but I'm looking for Va, the l
owest speed at which you can generate the max allowable (7) g. =0A>>=C2-
=0A>>Sent from my iPad=0A>>=C2-=0A>>> On Jan 10, 2014, at 14:32, "Etienne
Verhellen" <janie@yak52.fr> wrote:=0A>>> =0A>>> --> Yak-List message poste
d by: "Etienne Verhellen" <janie@yak52.fr>=0A>>> =0A>>> YAKOVLEVS Maximum M
anoeuvring speeds ...=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> #=C2- Maximum Manoeuvring Speed
YAK-52 : 360 KPH - 194 KTS=0A>>>=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- if uou're brave e
nough=C2-=C2- [Exclamation]=C2-=C2- [Wink] =0A>>> =0A>>> #=C2- Ma
ximum Manoeuvring Speed YAK-50 : 300 KPH.=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> Cheers,=0A>>>
=0A>>> Etienne.=0A>>> =0A>>> --------=0A>>> http://forums.matronics.com/fi
les/corsair_oe_eas_and_yak_52_g_cbss_212=0A>>> .jpg=0A>>> http://ukga.com/c
ontent/view?contentId=29581=0A>>> http://ukga.com/images/content/image295
81.jpg=0A>>> http://www.flyredstar.org/gallery2/Yak/Etienne%20landing%20in%
20YVR.jp=0A>>> g=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> Read this topic online h
ere:=0A>>> =0A>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416753#4167
53=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A
>>=C2-=0A>>=C2-=0A>>=C2-=0A>>http://www.aeroelectric.com/www.builders
books.comwww.homebuilthelp.comwww.mypilotstore.comwww.mrrace.comhref="htt
p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=0A>>=C2-=0A>>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List=0A>>=C2-=0A>>
http://forums.matronics.com/=0A>>=C2-=0A>>=C2-=0A>>=C2-=0A>>=C2-=0A
>>=C2-=0A>>http://www.aeroelectric.com/http://www.buildersbooks.com/http:
//www.homebuilthelp.com/http://www.mypilotstore.com/http://www.mrrace.com/
=0A>>http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A>>http://www.matronics.com/Nav
igator?Yak-List=0A>>http://forums.matronics.com/ =0A>http://www.matronics.c
==================/ =0A>=0A> =0A>D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=0Aist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List=0AD=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
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| Subject: | Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed |
That NPRM is from 1985 and appears to have been superseded.
The current FAR 23.335c does not allow for an arbitrary Va speed above Vs x s
qrt (n)
Part 23 AIRWORTHINESS STANDARDS: NORMAL, UTILITY, ACROBATIC, AND COMMUTER CA
TEGORY AIRPLANES
Subpart G--Operating Limitations and Information
Sec. 23.1507
[Operating] maneuvering speed.
[The maximum operating maneuvering speed, VO, must be established as an oper
ating limitation. VO is a selected speed that is not greater than establish
ed in Sec. 23.335(c).]
Kind regards,
Todd McCutchan
T-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: todd@fastaircraft.com
www.fastaircraft.com
> On Jan 12, 2014, at 2:28 PM, Mike Beresford <mike_beresford@yahoo.co.uk> w
rote:
>
> Which does help muddy the water even more ;-)
>
> My understanding is that the confusion starts because the manoeuvre speed d
efined in the design loads requirements (23.335) was not the same manoeuvre s
peed required in the operating limitations section (23.1507). See the notice
of rule making, http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgNPRM.n
sf/2ed8a85bb3dd48e68525644900598dfb/646bfd6587baf0ad852569230061a774!OpenDoc
ument
>
> I'd guess that the SAIB is specifically aimed at aircraft with Va instead o
f Vo (?)
>
> Does anyone know how the Russians define Va?
>
> Regards
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, 12 January 2014, 21:48, Todd McCutchan <todd@fastaircraft.com> w
rote:
> Very interesting info Mike. Thanks for sharing.
>
> As usual here is info also from the FAA in the form of a SAIB which direct
ly contradicts what they also say in FAR 23 which you have posted.
>
> http://www.eaa.org/news/2011/ce-11-17.pdf
>
> And straight from Far 23
>
> http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?gp=&SID=cc49468715c3314f42170
e150777c736&n=14y1.0.1.3.10&r=PART&ty=HTML#14:1.0.1.3.10.3.70.9
>
> (c) Design maneuvering speed VA. For VA, the following applies:
> (1) VA may not be less than VS=88=9An where=94
> (i) VS is a computed stalling speed with flaps retracted at the design wei
ght, normally based on the maximum airplane normal force coefficients, CNA; a
nd
> (ii) n is the limit maneuvering load factor used in design
> (2) The value of VA need not exceed the value of VC used in design.
> And
>
> 23.425 and 23.441 are specific to Va as defined above which as you stated a
pply to horizontal and vertical tail surfaces.
>
> AOPA gets in the mix here: http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2012/Ju
ly/feature-velocity.html
>
> And the PHAK (Pilots Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge) by the FAA it is d
efines as "the maximum speed at which an aircraft may be stalled safely."
>
> And then defines it again as "(Va) - the maximum speed at which the struct
ural designs limit load can be imposed (either by gusts or full deflection o
f the control surfaces) without causing structural damage. It is important t
o consider weight when referencing this speed."
>
> And again; "Va - the calibrated design maneuvering airspeed. This is the m
aximum speed at which the limit load can be imposed (either by gusts or full
deflection of the control surfaces) without causing structural damage. Oper
ating at or below maneuvering speed does not provide structural protection a
gainst multiple full control inputs in more than one axis at the same time."
>
> In the Airplane Flying Handbook (AFH) by the FAA it is defined as "Va - th
e design maneuvering speed. This is the "rough air" speed and the maximum sp
eed for abrupt maneuvers. If during flight, rough air or severe turbulence i
s encountered, reduce the airspeed to maneuvering speed or less to minimize s
tress on the airplane structure. It is important to consider weight when ref
erencing this speed."
>
> The US government, keeping the mud clear since the Air Commerce Act of 192
6.
>
> Of course all of this is moot as we are discussing an uncertified Russian a
irplane. Yakovlev is really the only place I would trust to define just what
they meant and why the speeds are what they are.
>
> I personally will stick to Vs x square root 7 for Va on the Yak 50/52. So a
ssuming 57 KIAS Vs for a 52, Va = 150.8 KIAS.
>
> As Richard Hess also already stated, if you are pulling more than 4 - 5 g'
s you are doing it wrong. :)
>
> Todd McCutchan
> T-34A & Yak-50
> Cell: (260) 402-1740
> E-mail: todd@fastaircraft.com
> http://www.fastaircraft.com/
>
>
>
>> On Jan 12, 2014, at 9:54 AM, Mike Beresford <mike_beresford@yahoo.co.uk> w
rote:
>>
>> Hi all
>>
>> Manoeuvre speed is a defined speed in the design of the aircraft, if usin
g standards such as FAR 23 / CS23. The Russian definition may well differ. V
a is a single speed, and does not vary with aircraft weight or CG.
>>
>> Although the speed is usually defined in terms of the formula Vs*=88=9A
n, this represents the minimum Va. It may be higher than that, if the design
er elects to designate a higher number. (See FAR 23.335(c)). This may well b
e the case of an aerobatic aircraft?
>>
>> The speed that most pilots would describe as "manoeuvre speed" is now def
ined as "operating moneuvering speed", Vo. (See FAR 23.1507).
>>
>> To quote the FAA Advisory Circular (23-19):
>> 48. What is the design maneuvering speed VA?
>> a. The design maneuvering speed is a value chosen by the applicant. It ma
y not
>> be less than Vs=88=9A n and need not be greater than Vc, but it could b
e greater if the applicant
>> chose the higher value. The loads resulting from full control surface def
lections at VA are
>> used to design the empennage and ailerons in part 23, =C2=A7=C2=A7 23.423
, 23.441, and 23.455.
>>
>> b. VA should not be interpreted as a speed that would permit the pilot
>> unrestricted flight-control movement without exceeding airplane structura
l limits, nor
>> should it be interpreted as a gust penetration speed. Only if VA = Vs
=88=9An will the airplane
>> stall in a nose-up pitching maneuver at, or near, limit load factor. For a
irplanes where
>> VA>VS=88=9An, the pilot would have to check the maneuver; otherwise th
e airplane would
>> exceed the limit load factor.
>>
>> c. Amendment 23-45 added the operating maneuvering speed, VO, in =C2=A7 2
3.1507.
>> VO is established not greater than VS=88=9An, and it is a speed where t
he airplane will stall in a
>> nose-up pitching maneuver before exceeding the airplane structural limits
.
>>
>> Hopefully this doesn't complicate things too much.
>>
>> Blue skies
>> Mike Beresford
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, 12 January 2014, 12:47, Jim Burke <jbyak52@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Good discussion. Anyone who plans to flys their airplane near max perform
ance needs to have a good understanding of the available g's in all flight r
egimes. Corner speed is probably the most critical since it gives you the s
peed for max g's. Below it and you are limited in low altitude pull outs and
other situations which could be critical.
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Jan 10, 2014, at 22:05, "Todd McCutchan" <todd@fastaircraft.com> wrot
e:
>>>
>>> Please also keep in mind that stall speed (at least in USA aircraft) is c
alculated based on MTOW and farthest allowable aft CG. If you are flying at w
eights below MTOW the Va will also be lower as it decreases as weight decrea
ses (rule of thumb is 1 knot per 100 lbs).
>>>
>>> Again you can calculate this using the same formula if you know the lowe
r Vs or if Vs is unknown for the reduced weight you can calculate using <ima
ge003.png>
>>> Va would be the maneuvering speed you previously calculated based on MTO
W. W2 is the current weight and W1 is the MTOW.
>>>
>>> Cheers!
>>>
>>> Todd McCutchan
>>> Fast Aircraft
>>> T-34A & Yak-50
>>>
>>> Cell - 260.402.1740
>>>
>>> Email: todd@fastaircraft.com
>>> Skype: tmccutchan
>>> Web: www.fastaircraft.com & www.toddmccutchanairshows.com
>>>
>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@
matronics.com] On Behalf Of Todd McCutchan
>>> Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 7:52 PM
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed
>>>
>>> Maneuvering speed can be found mathematically. The formula is Vs (stall s
peed clean) multiplied by the square root of the g (7). If you put it into a
n excel formula it would be Vs*=88=9An where n = acceleration. You can t
hen use this to build a Vn diagram if you so choose.
>>>
>>> Good luck!
>>> Todd McCutchan
>>> Fast Aircraft
>>> T-34A & Yak-50
>>>
>>> Cell - 260.402.1740
>>>
>>> Email: todd@fastaircraft.com
>>> Skype: tmccutchan
>>> Web: http://www.fastaircraft.com/ & http://www.toddmccutchanairshows.co
m/
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@
matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Burke
>>> Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 5:37 PM
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks but I'm looking for Va, the lowest speed at which you can generat
e the max allowable (7) g.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> > On Jan 10, 2014, at 14:32, "Etienne Verhellen" <janie@yak52.fr> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > YAKOVLEVS Maximum Manoeuvring speeds ...
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > # Maximum Manoeuvring Speed YAK-52 : 360 KPH - 194 KTS
>>> > if uou're brave enough [Exclamation] [Wink]
>>> >
>>> > # Maximum Manoeuvring Speed YAK-50 : 300 KPH.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Cheers,
>>> >
>>> > Etienne.
>>> >
>>> > --------
>>> > http://forums.matronics.com/files/corsair_oe_eas_and_yak_52_g_cbss_212
>>> > .jpg
>>> > http://ukga.com/content/view?contentId=29581
>>> > http://ukga.com/images/content/image29581.jpg
>>> > http://www.flyredstar.org/gallery2/Yak/Etienne%20landing%20in%20YVR.jp
>>> > g
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Read this topic online here:
>>> >
>>> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416753#416753
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.aeroelectric.com/www.buildersbooks.comwww.homebuilthelp.comww
w.mypilotstore.comwww.mrrace.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.aeroelectric.com/http://www.buildersbooks.com/http://www.home
builthelp.com/http://www.mypilotstore.com/http://www.mrrace.com/
>>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/
>> http://www.matronics.c=================
=/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> //forums.matronics.com
>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>
>
> hhttp://www.matronics.com/contribut=============
>
>
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
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| Subject: | Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed |
Hi Mike,
It has been a day of interesting reading (for me anyway). I am now
completely confused and believe that you are after all correct though I
can=99t seem to prove you are correct in the current FAR Part
23.335c as it does not seem to allow for an arbitrary maneuvering speed
above Vs=88=9An though it appears it previously may have. I just
can=99t find it anywhere in current documents.
So my current understanding is (under FAR Part 23):
Vo
=9COperating Speed=9D is equal to or less than Vs=88=9An.
Aircraft will stall prior to reaching g limit (not sure if this provides
negative g protection or not). Did not exist prior to 1993. New
certified aircraft must placard this. Changes with weight.
VA
=9CDesign Maneuvering Speed=9D is equal to or greater than
Vs=88=9An but is not required to be greater than Vc No structural
protection is provided for the airframe, only the flight control
surface? Certified aircraft will define this in the POH. May or may not
change with weight?
VNO
=9CMax Structural Cruising Speed=9D and is no less than the
minimum value of Vc allowed under 23.335, and not more than the lesser
of Vc or .89 of Vne. Additionally it is the speed at which the aircraft
can encounter sharp edged gusts of up to 25 fps (prior to 1963) now 50
fps (below 20,000=99 MSL) and not exceed the aircraft structural
limits (+/-). An interesting side note is that 747 wake turb vortices
are around 300 fps. Hmm
VNE
=9CNever Exceed Speed=9D and is not less than .9 VD and not
more than the lesser of .9 VD or .9 of the maximum speed shown under FAR
23.251. Additionally it is the speed at which the aircraft can encounter
sharp edged gusts of up to 15 fps (prior to 1963) and now 25 fps (below
20,000=99 MSL) and not exceed the aircraft structural limits
(+/-).
Outside of FAR Part 23 =9CManeuvering Speed=9D seems to
depend on the actual aircraft being spoken about as it seems to be up to
the aircraft manufacturer; which is bizarre.
I will continue to base my personal =9CVA=9C on Vs=88=9An
which also is a =9Cg available=9D indicator and
=9Ccorner velocity=9D at max positive g. It is the best I
can do with what I know / have available to me.
I have no idea on what requirements/guidelines the Russians used in
design of their aircraft (Yak 50 designed in 1972 / Yak 52 designed in
1973)
I wish we had some Russian aeronautical engineers from Yak who could
provide some insight to some of these crazy numbers I have seen for the
50 and 52.
Thanks again for the great discussion and education!
Todd McCutchan
Fast Aircraft
T-34A & Yak-50
Cell - 260.402.1740
Email: <mailto:todd@fastaircraft.com> todd@fastaircraft.com
Skype: tmccutchan
Web: <http://www.fastaircraft.com/> www.fastaircraft.com &
<http://www.toddmccutchanairshows.com/> www.toddmccutchanairshows.com
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Todd McCutchan
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 5:16 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed
That NPRM is from 1985 and appears to have been superseded.
The current FAR 23.335c does not allow for an arbitrary Va speed above
Vs x sqrt (n)
Part 23 AIRWORTHINESS STANDARDS: NORMAL, UTILITY, ACROBATIC, AND
COMMUTER CATEGORY AIRPLANES
Subpart G--Operating Limitations and Information
Sec. 23.1507
[Operating] maneuvering speed.
[The maximum operating maneuvering speed, VO, must be established as an
operating limitation. VO is a selected speed that is not greater than
<http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/0/2a0aa7562
67efe8f85256687007232cc/SectionRule/0.390!OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=g
if> established in Sec. 23.335(c).]
Kind regards,
Todd McCutchan
T-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: todd@fastaircraft.com
www.fastaircraft.com
On Jan 12, 2014, at 2:28 PM, Mike Beresford <mike_beresford@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
Which does help muddy the water even more ;-)
My understanding is that the confusion starts because the manoeuvre
speed defined in the design loads requirements (23.335) was not the same
manoeuvre speed required in the operating limitations section (23.1507).
See the notice of rule making,
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgNPRM.nsf/2ed8a85bb3d
d48e68525644900598dfb/646bfd6587baf0ad852569230061a774!OpenDocument
I'd guess that the SAIB is specifically aimed at aircraft with Va
instead of Vo (?)
Does anyone know how the Russians define Va?
Regards
Mike
On Sunday, 12 January 2014, 21:48, Todd McCutchan
<todd@fastaircraft.com> wrote:
Very interesting info Mike. Thanks for sharing.
As usual here is info also from the FAA in the form of a SAIB which
directly contradicts what they also say in FAR 23 which you have posted.
http://www.eaa.org/news/2011/ce-11-17.pdf
And straight from Far 23
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?gp=
<http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?gp=&SID=cc49468715c3314f421
70e150777c736&n=14y1.0.1.3.10&r=PART&ty=HTML#14:1.0.1.3.10.3.70.9>
&SID=cc49468715c3314f42170e150777c736&n=14y1.0.1.3.10&r=PART&ty=H
TML#14:1.0.1.3.10.3.70.9
(c) Design maneuvering speed VA. For VA, the following applies:
(1) VA may not be less than VS=88=9An where=94
(i) VS is a computed stalling speed with flaps retracted at the design
weight, normally based on the maximum airplane normal force
coefficients, CNA; and
(ii) n is the limit maneuvering load factor used in design
(2) The value of VA need not exceed the value of VC used in design.
And
23.425 and 23.441 are specific to Va as defined above which as you
stated apply to horizontal and vertical tail surfaces.
AOPA gets in the mix here:
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2012/July/feature-velocity.html
And the PHAK (Pilots Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge) by the FAA it
is defines as "the maximum speed at which an aircraft may be stalled
safely."
And then defines it again as "(Va) - the maximum speed at which the
structural designs limit load can be imposed (either by gusts or full
deflection of the control surfaces) without causing structural damage.
It is important to consider weight when referencing this speed."
And again; "Va - the calibrated design maneuvering airspeed. This is the
maximum speed at which the limit load can be imposed (either by gusts or
full deflection of the control surfaces) without causing structural
damage. Operating at or below maneuvering speed does not provide
structural protection against multiple full control inputs in more than
one axis at the same time."
In the Airplane Flying Handbook (AFH) by the FAA it is defined as "Va -
the design maneuvering speed. This is the "rough air" speed and the
maximum speed for abrupt maneuvers. If during flight, rough air or
severe turbulence is encountered, reduce the airspeed to maneuvering
speed or less to minimize stress on the airplane structure. It is
important to consider weight when referencing this speed."
The US government, keeping the mud clear since the Air Commerce Act of
1926.
Of course all of this is moot as we are discussing an uncertified
Russian airplane. Yakovlev is really the only place I would trust to
define just what they meant and why the speeds are what they are.
I personally will stick to Vs x square root 7 for Va on the Yak 50/52.
So assuming 57 KIAS Vs for a 52, Va = 150.8 KIAS.
As Richard Hess also already stated, if you are pulling more than 4 - 5
g's you are doing it wrong. :)
Todd McCutchan
T-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: todd@fastaircraft.com
http://www.fastaircraft.com/
On Jan 12, 2014, at 9:54 AM, Mike Beresford <mike_beresford@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
Hi all
Manoeuvre speed is a defined speed in the design of the aircraft, if
using standards such as FAR 23 / CS23. The Russian definition may well
differ. Va is a single speed, and does not vary with aircraft weight or
CG.
Although the speed is usually defined in terms of the formula
Vs*=88=9An, this represents the minimum Va. It may be higher than
that, if the designer elects to designate a higher number. (See FAR
23.335(c)). This may well be the case of an aerobatic aircraft?
The speed that most pilots would describe as "manoeuvre speed" is now
defined as "operating moneuvering speed", Vo. (See FAR 23.1507).
To quote the FAA Advisory Circular (23-19):
48. What is the design maneuvering speed VA?
a. The design maneuvering speed is a value chosen by the applicant. It
may not
be less than Vs=88=9A n and need not be greater than Vc, but it could
be greater if the applicant
chose the higher value. The loads resulting from full control surface
deflections at VA are
used to design the empennage and ailerons in part 23, =C2=A7=C2=A7
23.423, 23.441, and 23.455.
b. VA should not be interpreted as a speed that would permit the pilot
unrestricted flight-control movement without exceeding airplane
structural limits, nor
should it be interpreted as a gust penetration speed. Only if VA = Vs
=88=9An will the airplane
stall in a nose-up pitching maneuver at, or near, limit load factor. For
airplanes where
VA>VS=88=9An, the pilot would have to check the maneuver; otherwise
the airplane would
exceed the limit load factor.
c. Amendment 23-45 added the operating maneuvering speed, VO, in =C2=A7
23.1507.
VO is established not greater than VS=88=9An, and it is a speed where
the airplane will stall in a
nose-up pitching maneuver before exceeding the airplane structural
limits.
Hopefully this doesn't complicate things too much.
Blue skies
Mike Beresford
On Sunday, 12 January 2014, 12:47, Jim Burke <jbyak52@gmail.com> wrote:
Good discussion. Anyone who plans to flys their airplane near max
performance needs to have a good understanding of the available g's in
all flight regimes. Corner speed is probably the most critical since it
gives you the speed for max g's. Below it and you are limited in low
altitude pull outs and other situations which could be critical.
Sent from my iPad
On Jan 10, 2014, at 22:05, "Todd McCutchan" <todd@fastaircraft.com>
wrote:
Please also keep in mind that stall speed (at least in USA aircraft) is
calculated based on MTOW and farthest allowable aft CG. If you are
flying at weights below MTOW the Va will also be lower as it decreases
as weight decreases (rule of thumb is 1 knot per 100 lbs).
Again you can calculate this using the same formula if you know the
lower Vs or if Vs is unknown for the reduced weight you can calculate
using <image003.png>
Va would be the maneuvering speed you previously calculated based on
MTOW. W2 is the current weight and W1 is the MTOW.
Cheers!
Todd McCutchan
Fast Aircraft
T-34A & Yak-50
Cell - 260.402.1740
Email: todd@fastaircraft.com
Skype: tmccutchan
Web: www.fastaircraft.com <http://www.fastaircraft.com/> &
www.toddmccutchanairshows.com <http://www.toddmccutchanairshows.com/>
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Todd McCutchan
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 7:52 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed
Maneuvering speed can be found mathematically. The formula is Vs (stall
speed clean) multiplied by the square root of the g (7). If you put it
into an excel formula it would be Vs*=88=9An where n =
acceleration. You can then use this to build a Vn diagram if you so
choose.
Good luck!
Todd McCutchan
Fast Aircraft
T-34A & Yak-50
Cell - 260.402.1740
Email: todd@fastaircraft.com
Skype: tmccutchan
Web: http://www.fastaircraft.com/ &
http://www.toddmccutchanairshows.com/
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Burke
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed
jbyak52@gmail.com>
Thanks but I'm looking for Va, the lowest speed at which you can
generate the max allowable (7) g.
Sent from my iPad
> On Jan 10, 2014, at 14:32, "Etienne Verhellen" <
<mailto:janie@yak52.fr> janie@yak52.fr> wrote:
>
<mailto:janie@yak52.fr> janie@yak52.fr>
>
> YAKOVLEVS Maximum Manoeuvring speeds ...
>
>
> # Maximum Manoeuvring Speed YAK-52 : 360 KPH - 194 KTS
> if uou're brave enough [Exclamation] [Wink]
>
> # Maximum Manoeuvring Speed YAK-50 : 300 KPH.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Etienne.
>
> --------
>
<http://forums.matronics.com/files/corsair_oe_eas_and_yak_52_g_cbss_212>
http://forums.matronics.com/files/corsair_oe_eas_and_yak_52_g_cbss_212
> .jpg
> <http://ukga.com/content/view?contentId=29581>
http://ukga.com/content/view?contentId=29581
> <http://ukga.com/images/content/image29581.jpg>
http://ukga.com/images/content/image29581.jpg
>
<http://www.flyredstar.org/gallery2/Yak/Etienne%20landing%20in%20YVR.jp>
http://www.flyredstar.org/gallery2/Yak/Etienne%20landing%20in%20YVR.jp
> g
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416753#416753>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416753#416753
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
http://www.aeroelectric.com/ <http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
www.buildersbooks.com <http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
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atronics.com/contribution
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ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
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| Subject: | Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed |
HI
Will this attached extract from Page 64 of the YAK-52 POH help?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416832#416832
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/stall_speeds_and_forces_104.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed |
The phrase I found in the Yak 52 manual is "Maximum airspeed at maximum g -
360 kmph (194 KIAS). This does not appear to be Va but a restriction to the
maximum airspeed while pulling 7 g's.
Alternatively I found the phrase "airspeed range in normal flight 130 - 300
kmph (70 - 162 KIAS)". This appears to be similar to our "green arc" but
that is just my guess.
Interestingly I also found "minimum speed for level flight 130 kmph (70
KIAS)" while stall speed is listed as 110 kmph / 59 KIAS (upright), 140
7kmph / 76 KIAS (inverted), and 100 kmph / 54 KIAS (flaps extended). I don't
understand the difference between "minimum level flight speed" and "stall
speed". It's quite a large delta. Perhaps there is some sort of safety
buffer there for the DOOSAF students but that is just my guess.
I would think Va (as I understand it) is around 291 kmph / 157 KIAS.
Todd McCutchan
Fast Aircraft
T-34A & Yak-50
Cell - 260.402.1740
Email: todd@fastaircraft.com
Skype: tmccutchan
Web: www.fastaircraft.com & www.toddmccutchanairshows.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PaulW
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 11:23 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed
HI
Will this attached extract from Page 64 of the YAK-52 POH help?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416832#416832
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/stall_speeds_and_forces_104.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed |
Very interesting and informative discussion, many thanks to all
participants. No time to read all the info this morning but saving for
later.
I have, for many years, made it a habit to limit rolling / turning maneuvers
with both the Harvard and CJ to Va or less at not over 0.6 X the limit load
factor or < 4 G's for both types. Can't remember where that info came from
for sure but possibly from an old RAF POH for the Harvard Mk2.
Look forward to reading all of the postings.
Cheers;
Walt
-----Original Message-----
From: PaulW
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 10:22 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed
HI
Will this attached extract from Page 64 of the YAK-52 POH help?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416832#416832
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/stall_speeds_and_forces_104.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed |
"Rolling g" or "asymmetric loading" is often limited to 2/3 of normal g and
is a good practice for any type unless the POH calls for a different
adjustment.
Todd McCutchan
Fast Aircraft
T-34A & Yak-50
Cell - 260.402.1740
Email: todd@fastaircraft.com
Skype: tmccutchan
Web: www.fastaircraft.com & www.toddmccutchanairshows.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed
Very interesting and informative discussion, many thanks to all
participants. No time to read all the info this morning but saving for
later.
I have, for many years, made it a habit to limit rolling / turning maneuvers
with both the Harvard and CJ to Va or less at not over 0.6 X the limit load
factor or < 4 G's for both types. Can't remember where that info came from
for sure but possibly from an old RAF POH for the Harvard Mk2.
Look forward to reading all of the postings.
Cheers;
Walt
-----Original Message-----
From: PaulW
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 10:22 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Yak 52 maneuver speed
HI
Will this attached extract from Page 64 of the YAK-52 POH help?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416832#416832
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/stall_speeds_and_forces_104.jpg
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