Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:16 AM - Re: Re: AnywhereMap (Gary Gower)
2. 12:16 AM - Vs: Re: 601 XL g-loading (Jari.Kaija@pkcgroup.com)
3. 01:56 AM - Re: Zenith list In Cowl Radiators (Jari Kaija)
4. 01:59 AM - Re: Drilling landing gear (Jari Kaija)
5. 04:29 AM - Re: Wiring ()
6. 05:21 AM - Re: Zenith list In Cowl Radiators (Trevor Page)
7. 05:45 AM - Re: Vs: Re: 601 XL g-loading (Bryan Martin)
8. 06:29 AM - MIG TIG STICK etc etc... (Bima, Martin)
9. 07:06 AM - Re: Re: bumpy ride?/ autopilot (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
10. 07:17 AM - Re: Re: HDS twitchy ?? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
11. 07:31 AM - Re: MIG TIG STICK etc etc... (N5SL)
12. 07:51 AM - Re: MIG TIG STICK etc etc... (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
13. 08:37 AM - Re: MIG TIG STICK etc etc... (Russell J.)
14. 08:44 AM - Re: Wiring (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
15. 09:36 AM - Re: Wiring (Jaybannist@cs.com)
16. 10:13 AM - Re: Wiring (Bill Steer)
17. 10:44 AM - Re: Re: Wiring (Jim Hoak)
18. 03:59 PM - One last welder question (Bill Naumuk)
19. 04:08 PM - Re: Vs: Re: 601 XL g-loading (Bill Naumuk)
20. 04:14 PM - Re: Re: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine (Bill Naumuk)
21. 04:39 PM - Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List -- poor work (Big Gee)
22. 05:18 PM - Re: One last welder question (Gary Boothe)
23. 05:33 PM - Re: Re: 601 XL Question: How bumpy is the ride? (Daniel Vandenberg)
24. 05:49 PM - Re: One last welder question (cgalley)
25. 06:05 PM - Re: One last welder question (LarryMcFarland)
26. 06:37 PM - Re: Re: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine (Randy Bryant)
27. 07:07 PM - Re: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List -- poor work (Bill Naumuk)
28. 07:31 PM - Re: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List -- poor work (Tom and Bren Henderson)
29. 07:38 PM - Re: One last welder question (Paul Mulwitz)
30. 07:43 PM - Re: One last welder question (Bill Naumuk)
31. 08:12 PM - Re: Vs: Re: 601 XL g-loading (Bryan Martin)
32. 08:18 PM - Re: One last welder question (Gary Boothe)
33. 08:50 PM - Limit load (George Swinford)
34. 08:54 PM - Re: One last welder question (David Mikesell)
35. 10:06 PM - Re: One last welder question (David Mikesell)
Message 1
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
There is (was) only one AnywhereMap here in our Club (about 4 years ago).
He liked it very much, the only concern was to see the map with the sun ( I
dont know what PDA model or brand he used). He uses now a Garmin instead.
Probably newer PDA's have solved this problem. I used to have a Palm. and
only could see the programs inside a room. even tree shades were not enough.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
William Mileski <mileski@sonalysts.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: William Mileski
I just installed one in my 701. The wireless GPS with bluetooth Dell Ax=
im PDA are great. There are no more concerns with dead batteries and hav=
ing to reinstall the software with any Windows Mobile 5 PDA. The wirele=
ss operation is great, you can pull the unit out of the mount and hand i=
t to your copilot/passenger and they can check gas prices ahead. All so=
rts of convenience features in that software now, and as the software im=
proves, you upgrade for free as part of your annual subscription. Then t=
he PDAs improve every year or two, and then you upgrade, for a few hundr=
ed dollars, if you have to have the best. Harder to do that with a Garmi=
n.
---------------------------------
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL g-loading |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jari.Kaija@pkcgroup.com
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
>That's +/- 6 Gs ultimate load, that means +/- 4 Gs design load with a
>1.5 X safety factor.
I wonder... "Ultimate load" and "design load" are the same thing.
I think, that you mean "Limit load (factor)", what is (with zenair)
ultimate/1.5
-------------------------------------------
Jari Kaija
Electronic Designer
PKC Group Oyj
Vihikari 10
FIN-90440 KEMPELE
FINLAND
Mobile: +358 (0)40 5200265
Phone: +358 (0)201 752252
TeleFax: +358 (0)201 752401
jari.kaija@pkcgroup.com
http://www.pkcgroup.com
http://www.project-ch701.net
-------------------------------------------
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith list In Cowl Radiators |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jari Kaija" <jari.kaija@pp.inet.fi>
> Thanks in advance
> Ron Saarinen
Are your family came from finland? Saarinen is finnish last name.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Drilling landing gear |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jari Kaija" <jari.kaija@pp.inet.fi>
> have yet to drill your 3/4" 6061-T6 gear...do yourself a favor and get
> this
> tool. $15.00. Sure would be a shame to mess up that big ole piece of
> aluminum.
Caliper rule (what builder should have already), sharp pen and
plywood/nylon = "0$"
> While you're at it get the bungee installation tool too. $49.95 and save
> some shipping.
Pipe. 0$.
http://www.project-ch701.net/ch701_fuselage/DSC03685.JPG
Message 5
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: <davgray@sbcglobal.net>
Another option is to leave an additional loop of wire at the wing root and
solder the joints and add shrink wrap. How many times in the life of the
aircraft do you remove the wings?
This is fast, secure and repeatable.
I added a plate 1-1/2" above the center wing spar on the console to route
the pitot tubes and wing wires without being seen or disturbing the wing
spar.
The plate serves as a place to velcro the Y-control stick boot on its top
and the wires below thru gromets.
Gary Ray
----- Original Message -----
From: <Jaybannist@cs.com>
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 9:35 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Wiring
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jaybannist@cs.com
>
> I am building an XL and am curious about wiring from the wings. I have
seen
> on various web sites, the use of terminal blocks in the fuselage. I have
left
> enough wire (I think) to reach the instrument panel. Is it better to run
the
> wiring unbroken from the "user" to the switch, or is it better to use
> terminal blocks (and why)?
>
> Thanks in advance - Jay in Dallas working on fuselage.
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith list In Cowl Radiators |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page <webmaster@upac.ca>
Ron, have a look at Michel Therien's website here : http://
mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601/chengine5.htm
Trev Page
C-IDUS 601HD R912
On May 30, 2006, at 1:18 AM, sales@steelframe wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "sales@steelframe"
> <sales@steelframe.com.au>
>
> Does anyone have Photos of in cowl radiators installed in a 601
> with Subaru engine, any details would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance
> Ron Saarinen
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL g-loading |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
You're right, I meant to say the flight load limit is 4 Gs. the
design load factor is 1.5 times that at 6 Gs, which is what is listed
in the plans and brochures. This can be a bit misleading since most
certified aircraft POHs list only the flight load limit with a
statement that the design load factor is 1.5 times that value.
On May 30, 2006, at 3:15 AM, Jari.Kaija@pkcgroup.com wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jari.Kaija@pkcgroup.com
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin
>> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>>
>> That's +/- 6 Gs ultimate load, that means +/- 4 Gs design load with a
>> 1.5 X safety factor.
>
> I wonder... "Ultimate load" and "design load" are the same thing.
>
> I think, that you mean "Limit load (factor)", what is (with zenair)
> ultimate/1.5
>
>
> -------------------------------------------
> Jari Kaija
> Electronic Designer
> PKC Group Oyj
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.
Message 8
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| Subject: | MIG TIG STICK etc etc... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bima, Martin" <mbima@hydro.mb.ca>
Does anyone use gas anymore?
The nature of electric resistance welding includes a huge temperature
differential between the tip and the surrounding area (remember that the
tip is hotter than the sun and just a 1/2 inch away is cold steel at 55
degrees) which requires proper post-weld heat treatment - normalizing.
This I done using a torch or oven, getting the surrounding area to glow
a dull to cherry red, and letting it cool very slowly in still air.
So why buy an electric machine if you are going to have to heat it after
with gas anyway(unless you have a huge and hot over in your garage).
Don't get me wrong here. If I had the money, there would be a nice
little yellow TIG welder in my garage next to the two tanks, but I don't
have that kind of money, so it's just the two tanks.
BUT PLEASE - If you are a novice welder I would recommend that ...
1. Don't take advice from a forum like this as GOSPEL. There are too
many amatuers that have strong opinions that could be mistaken as fact -
including myself (But, if you have any training in logic, you would know
that if a liar tells you to be careful, you should still be careful).
2. Buy (or go to the library and get) a book on AIRCRAFT welding - not
"How to Build Trailers and Dune-Buggies". Better to buy because this
will become an invaluable reference. The EAA has several excelent books
and videos for beginners and advanced welders. I have not yet seen a
trailer that can roll inverted or do loops unless pushed off a cliff.
3. Take an AIRCRAFT welding course or have another AIRCRAFT welder watch
your work. I thought I was doing a fine job with my amatuer welding
(bikes, and other frame structures) until a REAL AIRCRAFT welder showed
me some very subtle changes in my technique that made big improvements
in safety and economy.
There are as many methods and techniques in welding as there are
opinions on this here internet (again, I am including myself here), but
the goal is to have a strong and tough weld that in the unlikely event
of a highly stressful event, the plane will bend and contort around the
straight runs of tubing and the joints will be pristine.
(If I have offended you, you are way too sensitive and need to lighten
up. This stuff is suppose to be fun - remember?)
Martin Bima
Winnipeg
"kiss you wife, hug your kids, and get building"
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: bumpy ride?/ autopilot |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Old style autopilots were analogue control and apparently were not
sensitive enough to control the airframe in turbulence.
Modern day digital controlled A/P's do not have this issue. In fact many
of the RV drivers are using them IFR for exactly this purpose.
Just the extensive reading I have done, I have not flown my Digitrack
yet.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Big Gee
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: bumpy ride?/ autopilot
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Big Gee <taffy0687@yahoo.com>
All---
There has been a lot of water over the dam since I've taken my flying
lessons. As a matter of fact I have only flown with autopilot one time.
That was to experience it only, than my instructor told me to turn it
off.
It was a long time ago, but I recall being told to "turn the autopilot
off in turbulence." If I recall correctly it was because it was harder
on the airframe.
Feedback please
Fritz ------ Corvair
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: HDS twitchy ?? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
You seem to imply that yanking and banking equals a bad flying
airplane?...Not in my book its FUN!
Personally I think this conversation has all gotten out of hand
somehow...I think this started with my using the term "twitchy" when I
really intended to imply "sensitive" and your way more "connected" to
the controls than the barge like C152/172.
To me the HDS the is trmendous fun but I bet it would be a handful in
IFR
Frank
+++++ FOR THE RECORD !!!
I totally disagree about "Yanking and Banking". My wife and I flew our
HDS 2100 miles down to Sun n Fun and back (with a stop down in Arkansas
to visit a friend) in 2004. The flying characteristics of the HDS (at
least this one) are wonderful!
My wife is a pilot as well. She flew our aircraft a considerable part of
that trip and commented several times about how flying our Zodiac was
FAR more fun than flying the Cessna 172 we used to own.
Fred 238 hours Jabiru 3300/ 601 HDS
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: MIG TIG STICK etc etc... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
I do.
Scott (Do Not Archive) Laughlin
(hack welder extraordinaire)
www.cooknwithgas.com
--- "Bima, Martin" <mbima@hydro.mb.ca> wrote:
> Does anyone use gas anymore?
__________________________________________________
Message 12
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| Subject: | MIG TIG STICK etc etc... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Me too!..Gas is one of the the most useful tools in the whole
shop!...Weld, cut, heat, bend, free stuck threads.
Wonderful
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N5SL
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: MIG TIG STICK etc etc...
--> Zenith-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
I do.
Scott (Do Not Archive) Laughlin
(hack welder extraordinaire)
www.cooknwithgas.com
--- "Bima, Martin" <mbima@hydro.mb.ca> wrote:
> Does anyone use gas anymore?
__________________________________________________
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: MIG TIG STICK etc etc... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Russell J." <entecrj@sbcglobal.net>
> Me too!..Gas is one of the the most useful tools in the whole
> shop!...Weld, cut, heat, bend, free stuck threads.
>
> Wonderful
>
> Frank
++++++++++++++++++++++++
as it is more commonly known, "the hot wrench"
Russell J.
do not archive
Message 14
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Jay, I used on recommendation from my tech counselor, Jim Hoak, a zissor
connector covered in shrink tube just inside the fuselage. Worked well in
disconnecting later to remove the wing for painting and transport to the hanger.
Also
you did not have to worry about if the wire was long enough. FWIW, best
regards, Bill
Message 15
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jaybannist@cs.com
Bill, I've not heard of a zissor connector. Tell me more.
Jay
do not archive
Message 16
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" <steerr@bellsouth.net>
I believe he meant the knife disconnects. They're items 32446 and 32448 in
my ACS catalog.
Bill
> Bill, I've not heard of a zissor connector. Tell me more.
Message 17
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Hoak" <planejim@bellsouth.net>
Jay,
I'm the one who recommended the knife ( Bill called them sissor -
(mispelled)) connectors that he used. These have been used in the aviation
industry for many years. They are used where you will have to occasionally
disconnect / connect wires. These are Aircraft Spruce Part Numbers 32446
(22-16 wire size-red) and 32448 (16-14 wire size - blue).
I believe using these knife connectors would work fine at the fuselage /
wing juncture. Be sure to use shrink wrap and some way to secure the
connections to prevent them from chaffing.
Terminal strips have their use and could be made to work at this location
but would be more complicated, heavier and require careful insulation.
Jim Hoak 601HD 512 hours.
----- Original Message -----
From: <Jaybannist@cs.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 12:33 PM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: Zenith-List: Wiring
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jaybannist@cs.com
>
> Bill, I've not heard of a zissor connector. Tell me more.
>
> Jay
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | One last welder question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
All-
Thanks for all the truly helpful responses. By line item:
1. I've been welding both gas and electric since I was 13. Problem =
is, I've used the same equipment for the past 39 years and wanted to see =
what the big deal was with the new acronyms (MIG/TIG, etc.) From the =
responses, A. MIG is no big deal. B. TIG or oxy/acetylene is for =
aluminum.=20
2. Asked my 86 year old Uncle Joe what his recommendation was. He =
used to be a welder for Bucyrus-Erie and Greenville Steel Car during =
WWII. That's what drove my Memorial Day comments.=20
He had an iron-clad critical war-worker deferment. One day, he'd =
taken enough crap from a couple of ladies on the streetcar going to work =
for being a "Draft Dodger", got off at the next stop and enlisted in the =
USAAC. Flew 38 missions in B-17s with the 100th (Yes, that 100th) =
bombardment of the 8th Air Force, 28 combat and 10 hauling relief =
supplies. Bronze star, shot down 3 times. After 50 years won't even fly =
commercial because he said he's already used up 8 of his 9 lives. =20
His recommendation was "The thinner the stock you can do a good job =
of welding, the better the welder". From the responses, sounds like it's =
still solid advice.
3. My welded parts were purchased from Zenith, so I'm looking more =
at a rig for making fixtures, repairs, and the like. I can't see any =
better bang for the buck than the top of the line Lincoln stick welder =
for steel. The question is, is oxy-propane hot enough to weld aluminum?
By the way, we call them "Gas-hatchets" around here.
Bill
do not archive
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: 601 XL g-loading |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
Question-
How do you keep from passing out swivelling your neck to look at every
rivet you have an uneasy feeling about (You KNOW where they are!) while
pulling 6 gs?
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Martin" <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL g-loading
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
> You're right, I meant to say the flight load limit is 4 Gs. the
> design load factor is 1.5 times that at 6 Gs, which is what is listed
> in the plans and brochures. This can be a bit misleading since most
> certified aircraft POHs list only the flight load limit with a
> statement that the design load factor is 1.5 times that value.
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
Jerome-
No HDS builder will dispute this. Once again, a trade off. How much time
and money is it going to take to scratchbuild a spring gear vs bungee? I
don't think raw stock that thick is going to come cheap!
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brandon Tucker" <btucke73@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 11:00 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
>
It did, however, simplify the
> installation
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List -- poor work |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Big Gee <taffy0687@yahoo.com>
If you built the airplane to that standard, it shouldn't be in the air. Any questionable
work should be reaccomplished as you proceed in the building process.
Any doubts contact Cris H. with scatches and he'll be glad to give you the
corrective action.
Fritz ----Corvair
do not archive
Bill Naumuk <naumuk@alltel.net> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk"
Question-
How do you keep from passing out swivelling your neck to look at every
rivet you have an uneasy feeling about (You KNOW where they are!) while
pulling 6 gs?
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Martin"
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL g-loading
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin
>
> You're right, I meant to say the flight load limit is 4 Gs. the
> design load factor is 1.5 times that at 6 Gs, which is what is listed
> in the plans and brochures. This can be a bit misleading since most
> certified aircraft POHs list only the flight load limit with a
> statement that the design load factor is 1.5 times that value.
>
>
>
---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
Message 22
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| Subject: | One last welder question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
Bill,
God bless your uncle, and every other WWII veteran, including my own father
who lied and cheated his way into the Navy, at 17 years old!
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
601 HDSTD, WW Conversion
Tail done, working on wings....
2. Asked my 86 year old Uncle Joe what his recommendation was. He =
used to be a welder for Bucyrus-Erie and Greenville Steel Car during =
WWII. That's what drove my Memorial Day comments.=20
He had an iron-clad critical war-worker deferment. One day, he'd =
taken enough crap from a couple of ladies on the streetcar going to work =
for being a "Draft Dodger", got off at the next stop and enlisted in the =
USAAC. Flew 38 missions in B-17s with the 100th (Yes, that 100th) =
Bill
do not archive
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Re: 601 XL Question: How bumpy is the ride? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Daniel Vandenberg <djvdb63@yahoo.com>
Thanks Lance...this sort of input is valuable. Could I further elicit responses
on this topic also from a few other XL drivers who frequent this list?
lgingell <lgingell@matrix-logic.com> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by:
"lgingell"
Good question....
I have an XL/Jab 3300. It can be pretty bumpy, particularly when lightly loaded
(i'm 120lbs) I think my XL is great, but I *would* prefer it to be less bumpy.
It yaws quite a bit in turbulence. Its a bumpier ride than the RV's around
here.
My trutrak digitrak autopilot does quite a good job of smoothing it out, but you
still feel it.
If you are concerned, and you have the extra money/time, go with the 9...(or a
7 - doesn't that have a higher wingloading still?).
cheers,
..lance
http://lancegingell.com/plane.asp
--------
Zodiac XL/Jab 3300
http://lancegingell.com/plane.asp
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37196#37196
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting
at 1¢/min.
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: One last welder question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Yes propane is actually too hot. Many use Hydrogen instead.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 5:55 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: One last welder question
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
>
> All-
> Thanks for all the truly helpful responses. By line item:
> 1. I've been welding both gas and electric since I was 13. Problem =
> is, I've used the same equipment for the past 39 years and wanted to see =
> what the big deal was with the new acronyms (MIG/TIG, etc.) From the =
> responses, A. MIG is no big deal. B. TIG or oxy/acetylene is for =
> aluminum.=20
> 2. Asked my 86 year old Uncle Joe what his recommendation was. He =
> used to be a welder for Bucyrus-Erie and Greenville Steel Car during =
> WWII. That's what drove my Memorial Day comments.=20
> He had an iron-clad critical war-worker deferment. One day, he'd =
> taken enough crap from a couple of ladies on the streetcar going to work =
> for being a "Draft Dodger", got off at the next stop and enlisted in the =
> USAAC. Flew 38 missions in B-17s with the 100th (Yes, that 100th) =
> bombardment of the 8th Air Force, 28 combat and 10 hauling relief =
> supplies. Bronze star, shot down 3 times. After 50 years won't even fly =
> commercial because he said he's already used up 8 of his 9 lives. =20
> His recommendation was "The thinner the stock you can do a good job =
> of welding, the better the welder". From the responses, sounds like it's =
> still solid advice.
> 3. My welded parts were purchased from Zenith, so I'm looking more =
> at a rig for making fixtures, repairs, and the like. I can't see any =
> better bang for the buck than the top of the line Lincoln stick welder =
> for steel. The question is, is oxy-propane hot enough to weld aluminum?
> By the way, we call them "Gas-hatchets" around here.
> Bill
> do not archive
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: One last welder question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Bill,
Aircraft welders dont exist today. Any serious welding is pre-certified
to specific jobs and the professional welder that does aircraft
welding in the universal sense is mostly an A & P or an amateur like
us. Theres some variability in exposure and training, but most of it is
self-taught. Only practice makes a good welder of you. The 6000-degree
Oxyacetylene flame is the only gas that will melt nearly all metals and
is the least expensive process for welding 4130 structural tubing. TIG
is better if you really need to have the best looking welds and total
control of the job. My welds never looked as good as professionally done
aluminum. Welding 5052 was initially rather difficult even though Id
read the books and my problems were mostly about contaminated argon flow
tips.
The professional Welding Engineer seldom has broad applied skills in
welding that we learn just during the plane-building process. So when
you put a 6000-degree flame to a job or the 125-amp TIG arc begins a
melt process, its generally up to you to learn how to stay in control
of it. Books are a nice start, but practice is the only way to get there.
Welding aluminum with Oxyacetylene was one of the most difficult things
I've had to learn and don't recommend it as it's compared to riding a
unicycle in the dark. It can be done, but at considerable effort. My
second fuel tank was done this way for a Tailwind/Cougar and I never got
comfortable with it. TIG is much like running a sewing machine in
comparison.
Dont let anyone diminish your ability to believe you can learn a new
process Bill, just because you dont have a PHD in Applied Welding
process. Its just not rocket science.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
Bill Naumuk wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
>
>All-
> The question is, is oxy-propane hot enough to weld aluminum?
> By the way, we call them "Gas-hatchets" around here.
> Bill
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Re: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Bryant" <randy@shadycreekoutlaws.com>
I bought a 12' X 8" X 3/4" piece from Yarde Metals about 2 months ago for
less than $200 to build my XL gear...
Randy
http://www.n344rb.com
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
>
> Jerome-
> No HDS builder will dispute this. Once again, a trade off. How much
> time
> and money is it going to take to scratchbuild a spring gear vs bungee? I
> don't think raw stock that thick is going to come cheap!
>
> Bill
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brandon Tucker" <btucke73@yahoo.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 11:00 PM
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
>>
> It did, however, simplify the
>> installation
>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List -- poor work |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
Anyone who doesn't have a doubt about his workmanship at 6gs is a far better
man than I.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Big Gee" <taffy0687@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 7:37 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List -- poor work
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Big Gee <taffy0687@yahoo.com>
>
> If you built the airplane to that standard, it shouldn't be in the air.
> Any questionable work should be reaccomplished as you proceed in the
> building process. Any doubts contact Cris H. with scatches and he'll be
> glad to give you the corrective action.
> Fritz ----Corvair
> do not archive
>
>
> Bill Naumuk <naumuk@alltel.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk"
>
> Question-
> How do you keep from passing out swivelling your neck to look at every
> rivet you have an uneasy feeling about (You KNOW where they are!) while
> pulling 6 gs?
>
> Bill
>
> do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bryan Martin"
>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:43 AM
> Subject: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL g-loading
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin
>
>>
>> You're right, I meant to say the flight load limit is 4 Gs. the
>> design load factor is 1.5 times that at 6 Gs, which is what is listed
>> in the plans and brochures. This can be a bit misleading since most
>> certified aircraft POHs list only the flight load limit with a
>> statement that the design load factor is 1.5 times that value.
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
>
>
>
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List -- poor work |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tom and Bren Henderson <admin@arachnidrobotics.com>
Lest your post scare off undecided newbies, we should probably quantify "questionable
work". We're not building lunar modules here. Yes, we're building
flying machines. Yes, we'll strap our butts to them and terrorize the bugs.
Does that mean a slight scratch in a fuselage skin shall be cause for rework?
Certainly not!
There are critical areas of the airframe that demand strict attention to published
standards. Big Gee is completely correct in the statement that Chris
will happily answer any and all workmanship questions.
We need to remember however that one rivet that is 1mm off the given edge distance,
in a row of 40, should not be cause to scrap the parts. If that were
the case, many of the parts right off Zenith's line would require re-work (they
aren't known for their straight rivet lines). Oh, and don't pull 6 G's !
:- )
Big Gee <taffy0687@yahoo.com> wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Big Gee
If you built the airplane to that standard, it shouldn't be in the air. Any questionable
work should be reaccomplished as you proceed in the building process.
Any doubts contact Cris H. with scatches and he'll be glad to give you the
corrective action.
Fritz ----Corvair
do not archive
Bill Naumuk wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk"
Question-
How do you keep from passing out swivelling your neck to look at every
rivet you have an uneasy feeling about (You KNOW where they are!) while
pulling 6 gs?
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Martin"
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL g-loading
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin
>
> You're right, I meant to say the flight load limit is 4 Gs. the
> design load factor is 1.5 times that at 6 Gs, which is what is listed
> in the plans and brochures. This can be a bit misleading since most
> certified aircraft POHs list only the flight load limit with a
> statement that the design load factor is 1.5 times that value.
>
>
>
---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Re: One last welder question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz@worldnet.att.net>
>Its just not rocket science.
No . . . It's airplane science, but it also works for rockets.
Paul
XL wings
do not archive
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: One last welder question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
Gary and all-
My uncle enlisted in the USAAC because of peer pressure; my father had
the choice of joining the Navy or going to Riker's Island. My uncle wound up
after the war as a postmaster, my father an engineer for Grumman. Go figure.
Everyone has an Uncle Joe. It took 40 years to get the story I just
related. PTSD started long before 'Nam.
Talk to the WWII vets before it's too late- chances are what you hear
will blow your preconceptions of Hollywood History to pieces. At this point
in time, the vets have no reason to hold anything back any longer.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:13 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: One last welder question
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
>
> Bill,
>
> God bless your uncle, and every other WWII veteran, including my own
> father
> who lied and cheated his way into the Navy, at 17 years old!
>
>
>
Message 31
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|
| Subject: | Re: 601 XL g-loading |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Since the flight load limit is 4 Gs, I'd be a damn fool to try to
pull more than that. 6 Gs is the point where, theoretically, things
start to permanently deform.
On May 30, 2006, at 7:08 PM, Bill Naumuk wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
>
> Question-
> How do you keep from passing out swivelling your neck to look
> at every
> rivet you have an uneasy feeling about (You KNOW where they are!)
> while
> pulling 6 gs?
>
> Bill
>
> do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bryan Martin" <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:43 AM
> Subject: Re: Vs: Re: Zenith-List: 601 XL g-loading
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin
>> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>>
>> You're right, I meant to say the flight load limit is 4 Gs. the
>> design load factor is 1.5 times that at 6 Gs, which is what is listed
>> in the plans and brochures. This can be a bit misleading since most
>> certified aircraft POHs list only the flight load limit with a
>> statement that the design load factor is 1.5 times that value.
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.
Message 32
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| Subject: | One last welder question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
Best book I ever read on the subject (PTSD) - Flags of our Fathers - about
the six Marines who hoisted the famous flag over Iwo Jima.... 'nuff said!
Gary
Do not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: One last welder question
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
Gary and all-
My uncle enlisted in the USAAC because of peer pressure; my father had
the choice of joining the Navy or going to Riker's Island. My uncle wound up
after the war as a postmaster, my father an engineer for Grumman. Go figure.
Everyone has an Uncle Joe. It took 40 years to get the story I just
related. PTSD started long before 'Nam.
Talk to the WWII vets before it's too late- chances are what you hear
will blow your preconceptions of Hollywood History to pieces. At this point
in time, the vets have no reason to hold anything back any longer.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:13 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: One last welder question
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
>
> Bill,
>
> God bless your uncle, and every other WWII veteran, including my own
> father
> who lied and cheated his way into the Navy, at 17 years old!
>
>
>
Message 33
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|
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" <grs-pms@comcast.net>
With respect to Bryan Martin's last posting on limit load: By =
definition, limit load is the maximum g-load that the structure is =
designed to stand without any permanent deformation. Above that load =
something would be expected to bend and stay bent when the load comes =
off. At or slightly above ultimate load, defined as 1.5 times limit =
load, something would be expected to fail. Don't try to pull 6 Gs.
George Swinford
Do not archive
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: One last welder question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Mikesell" <skyguynca@skyguynca.com>
Very well put Larry. I dropped from the discussion after it was said "you
have to have a big oven or a oxy/acetalne torch to reheat your work", that
is a very very big mistatement that I did not want to argue with, but you
know I just couldn't resist. I will not argue with my words but with the
designer's Chris H, "all welding for the 601 series can be done with a
torch, mig or tig and it requires no heat treatment or reheating, that is
something the home builder should not have to do". The reheating of 4130
steel is not even done when the factory makes a motor mount for a certified
aircraft. The steel is not heated enough to loose its properties to a
critical point to where it needs to be relieved and normalized. Doing the
motor mount and landing gear legs for the HD and HDS can be welded and used,
you don't need a oven or a torch. Just a little bit of experience in the
repair of Helicopters and Airplanes (20+years) and the current fleet I take
care of includes a P-51, Stearman, Stagerwing, 2 Beech 99 airliners, 2
DeHavilland Super Otters and my customers airplanes of 4 Beech 65A90 King
Airs....and I do all the welding both aluminum and steel with the complete
blessing of my local Fisdo as long as I adhere to AC43 for my repairs.
David Mikesell
23597 N. Hwy 99
Acampo, CA 95220
209-609-8774
skyguynca@skyguynca.com
www.skyguynca.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "LarryMcFarland" <larry@macsmachine.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: One last welder question
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
>
> Bill,
> Aircraft welders dont exist today. Any serious welding is pre-certified
> to specific jobs and the professional welder that does aircraft
> welding in the universal sense is mostly an A & P or an amateur like
> us. Theres some variability in exposure and training, but most of it is
> self-taught. Only practice makes a good welder of you. The 6000-degree
> Oxyacetylene flame is the only gas that will melt nearly all metals and
> is the least expensive process for welding 4130 structural tubing. TIG
> is better if you really need to have the best looking welds and total
> control of the job. My welds never looked as good as professionally done
> aluminum. Welding 5052 was initially rather difficult even though Id
> read the books and my problems were mostly about contaminated argon flow
> tips.
>
> The professional Welding Engineer seldom has broad applied skills in
> welding that we learn just during the plane-building process. So when
> you put a 6000-degree flame to a job or the 125-amp TIG arc begins a
> melt process, its generally up to you to learn how to stay in control
> of it. Books are a nice start, but practice is the only way to get there.
>
> Welding aluminum with Oxyacetylene was one of the most difficult things
> I've had to learn and don't recommend it as it's compared to riding a
> unicycle in the dark. It can be done, but at considerable effort. My
> second fuel tank was done this way for a Tailwind/Cougar and I never got
> comfortable with it. TIG is much like running a sewing machine in
> comparison.
>
> Dont let anyone diminish your ability to believe you can learn a new
> process Bill, just because you dont have a PHD in Applied Welding
> process. Its just not rocket science.
>
> Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
> do not archive
>
>
> Bill Naumuk wrote:
>
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
> >
> >All-
> > The question is, is oxy-propane hot enough to weld aluminum?
> > By the way, we call them "Gas-hatchets" around here.
> > Bill
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: One last welder question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Mikesell" <skyguynca@skyguynca.com>
OOPS, forgot to qualify the welding statement.......IF you read back to the
construction of the airframes for all the tube & rag airplanes: Fairchild,
Piper, Aeronca and such you will see thousands of welded tube
airframes.......and they never heated one in a oven after welding......got
that from a guy on my airport who worked for piper welding cub airframes.
David Mikesell
23597 N. Hwy 99
Acampo, CA 95220
209-609-8774
skyguynca@skyguynca.com
www.skyguynca.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Mikesell" <skyguynca@skyguynca.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: One last welder question
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Mikesell"
<skyguynca@skyguynca.com>
>
> Very well put Larry. I dropped from the discussion after it was said "you
> have to have a big oven or a oxy/acetalne torch to reheat your work", that
> is a very very big mistatement that I did not want to argue with, but you
> know I just couldn't resist. I will not argue with my words but with the
> designer's Chris H, "all welding for the 601 series can be done with a
> torch, mig or tig and it requires no heat treatment or reheating, that is
> something the home builder should not have to do". The reheating of 4130
> steel is not even done when the factory makes a motor mount for a
certified
> aircraft. The steel is not heated enough to loose its properties to a
> critical point to where it needs to be relieved and normalized. Doing the
> motor mount and landing gear legs for the HD and HDS can be welded and
used,
> you don't need a oven or a torch. Just a little bit of experience in the
> repair of Helicopters and Airplanes (20+years) and the current fleet I
take
> care of includes a P-51, Stearman, Stagerwing, 2 Beech 99 airliners, 2
> DeHavilland Super Otters and my customers airplanes of 4 Beech 65A90 King
> Airs....and I do all the welding both aluminum and steel with the complete
> blessing of my local Fisdo as long as I adhere to AC43 for my repairs.
>
> David Mikesell
> 23597 N. Hwy 99
> Acampo, CA 95220
> 209-609-8774
> skyguynca@skyguynca.com
> www.skyguynca.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "LarryMcFarland" <larry@macsmachine.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 6:04 PM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: One last welder question
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland
<larry@macsmachine.com>
> >
> > Bill,
> > Aircraft welders dont exist today. Any serious welding is pre-certified
> > to specific jobs and the professional welder that does aircraft
> > welding in the universal sense is mostly an A & P or an amateur like
> > us. Theres some variability in exposure and training, but most of it is
> > self-taught. Only practice makes a good welder of you. The 6000-degree
> > Oxyacetylene flame is the only gas that will melt nearly all metals and
> > is the least expensive process for welding 4130 structural tubing. TIG
> > is better if you really need to have the best looking welds and total
> > control of the job. My welds never looked as good as professionally done
> > aluminum. Welding 5052 was initially rather difficult even though Id
> > read the books and my problems were mostly about contaminated argon flow
> > tips.
> >
> > The professional Welding Engineer seldom has broad applied skills in
> > welding that we learn just during the plane-building process. So when
> > you put a 6000-degree flame to a job or the 125-amp TIG arc begins a
> > melt process, its generally up to you to learn how to stay in control
> > of it. Books are a nice start, but practice is the only way to get
there.
> >
> > Welding aluminum with Oxyacetylene was one of the most difficult things
> > I've had to learn and don't recommend it as it's compared to riding a
> > unicycle in the dark. It can be done, but at considerable effort. My
> > second fuel tank was done this way for a Tailwind/Cougar and I never got
> > comfortable with it. TIG is much like running a sewing machine in
> > comparison.
> >
> > Dont let anyone diminish your ability to believe you can learn a new
> > process Bill, just because you dont have a PHD in Applied Welding
> > process. Its just not rocket science.
> >
> > Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> > Bill Naumuk wrote:
> >
> > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
> > >
> > >All-
> > > The question is, is oxy-propane hot enough to weld aluminum?
> > > By the way, we call them "Gas-hatchets" around here.
> > >
Bill
> > > do not archive
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