Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:37 AM - List of Contributors Coming Soon - Make Sure You're Listed! (Matt Dralle)
1. 12:25 AM - Re: Re: Sensitive Elevator (Jonathan Starke)
2. 01:16 AM - Re: Too busy flying to post my First Flight! (TxDave)
3. 04:07 AM - Re: Re: Torquing GSC Propeller Bolts (Trevor Page)
4. 04:24 AM - Is Comcast Blocking the Digest Again?? (lwhitlow)
5. 05:20 AM - Fw: 701 slats again (Carl Bertrand)
6. 05:43 AM - Re: Re: Torquing GSC Propeller Bolts (n801bh@netzero.com)
7. 05:51 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Pump Placement and Fuel Line Question (Bryan Martin)
8. 05:52 AM - Re: 701 slats again (Robert N. Eli)
9. 06:49 AM - What size Druzs Fasteners? (Gig Giacona)
10. 07:24 AM - Re: Is Comcast Blocking the Digest Again?? (Dave Ruddiman)
11. 07:27 AM - Re: What size Dzus Fasteners? (TYA2)
12. 07:28 AM - What size Druzs Fasteners? (Robin Bellach)
13. 08:23 AM - CH2000 Winter Front (TYA2)
14. 08:23 AM - Bruce's Custom Cover & CH2000 (TYA2)
15. 09:12 AM - Re: Coast to coast and back in my 601XLCoast to coast and back in my 601XL (Paul Tipton)
16. 09:52 AM - Re: What size Druzs Fasteners? (ALAN BEYER)
17. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: Torquing GSC Propeller Bolts (Trevor Page)
18. 12:56 PM - Re: What size Druzs Fasteners? (Gig Giacona)
19. 01:08 PM - Re: Re: Torquing GSC Propeller Bolts (MrBizi)
20. 02:39 PM - Zodiac 601XL Performance Again (sorry) (Andre Abreu)
21. 03:01 PM - Re: What size Druzs Fasteners? (DaveG601XL)
22. 03:10 PM - C-85 in 601XL??? (DaveG601XL)
23. 03:23 PM - Re: 701 slats again (Juan Vega)
24. 03:55 PM - 601XL - Engine out / Glide Experience (Steven Janicki)
25. 04:03 PM - Re: Zodiac 601XL Performance Again (sorry) (Gig Giacona)
26. 05:05 PM - Re: Zodiac 601XL Performance Again (sorry) (David X)
27. 05:11 PM - Re: 701 slats again (n801bh@netzero.com)
28. 05:39 PM - Re: Re: Torquing GSC Propeller Bolts (Noel Loveys)
29. 05:43 PM - Re: C-85 in 601XL??? (David X)
30. 05:48 PM - Re: Bruce's Custom Cover & CH2000 (David X)
31. 06:13 PM - Re: 701 slats again (Robert N. Eli)
32. 06:58 PM - Re: Zodiac 601XL Performance Again (sorry) (David X)
33. 07:59 PM - Re: C-85 in 601XL??? (Brandon Tucker)
34. 08:20 PM - Re: 601XL - Engine out / Glide Experience (Josh Olson)
35. 08:20 PM - Re: Zodiac 601XL Performance Again (sorry) (Josh Olson)
36. 10:46 PM - Re: 601XL - Engine out / Glide Experience (xl)
Message 0
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| Subject: | List of Contributors Coming Soon - Make Sure You're Listed! |
Dear Listers,
The List of Contributors (LOC) is just around the corner! On December 1st I post
a list of everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists.
Its my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their
appreciation for the Lists.
As a number of people have pointed out in their Contribution comments, the List
seems at least as valuable of a building/flying/recreating tool as a typical
your magazine subscription! And how interactive is a magazine, after all? :-)
Won't you take minute and assure that your name is on the upcoming LOC? Tell others
that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists
is fast and easy using your Visa, MasterCard, or Paypal account:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, by droping a personal check in the mail to:
Matronics / Matt Dralle
PO Box 347
Livermore CA 94551-0347
USA
(Please include your email address on the check!)
I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus
far during this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that
keeps these Lists running and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment
about how the Lists have helped you!
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Sensitive Elevator |
Hi Dan,
The oscilations I am talking about are induced by me, when correcting in heavy
turbulence, as the slightest movement on the stick forwards or backwards causes
a pitch change. I.e. deflecting the ailerons to lidt a dropped wing in
turbulance is very dificult to not move the stick in the pitch direction as
well.
Then Weight and Balance is bang on the manual, a I would not fly it otherwise.
(Done with three digital scales, by my AMO)
Jonathan
>
>Jonathan,
>Occilations are an indication of the CG getting too far aft
>causing instability in the pitch axis? Had you checked the
>weight and ballance?
>Dan
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Too busy flying to post my First Flight! |
Way to go Tim! You're a true inspiration. I remember you from the ZAC video and
had been wondering how you were doing.
do not archive
Dave Clay
Temple, TX
http://www.daves601xl.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77264#77264
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Torquing GSC Propeller Bolts |
John, I have a similar arrangement of a prop extension on my 601HD
but I'm using a 68" Warp Drive prop.
My extension is a simpler arrangement of a heavy walled 6061 tube
with match drilled holes that use long prop bolts to directly bolts
the whole thing to the prop flange. The main concern on mine is not
stripping the threads on either the bolts or the prop flange cause
neither are cheap to replace! Rotax recommends a max of 94 ft/Lbs on
the prop flange according to my manual. My bolts extend enough past
the prop flange to have washers and nuts on the back to keep things
from backing out.
Trev Page
C-IDUS 601HD R912
On Nov 26, 2006, at 12:37 PM, John M. Goodings wrote:
> <goodings@yorku.ca>
>
> Our CH601HD Zodiac with a Rotax 912S 100 HP engine has a 68-inch, 3-
> blade
> GSC wooden prop. In our installation, there is a prop flange
> extension.
> The prop is held on by 6 1/4-inch bolts (3 through the aluminum blade
> roots), and by 6 5/16-inch bolts onto the flange extension. GSC
> Systems
> says use 100 inch pounds of torque for the 1/4 inch bolts, and 140
> for the
> 5/16; these values are critical. Normally, with a washer under
> both the
> head and the nut, one holds the bolt head stationary, and torques the
> nylon lock nut; these nyloks are the preferred nuts recommended by
> GSC.
> Because of the design of the prop flange extension, it is not
> possible to
> get the torque wrench onto the nuts. Thus, one holds the nut
> stationary,
> and torques the bolt head. THIS IS NOT THE SAME THING. My son Peter
> (co-builder of our aircraft, and a professional mechanical
> engineer) knows
> from practical experience that putting the torque wrench on the
> bolt head
> can undertorque the nut by possibly 20-30%, or even more. It
> stands to
> reason: the bolt shaft (or grip) inevitably experiences some
> friction in
> passing through the parts being bolted together on the way to the nut.
> There is a little part called a "crow's foot" to overcome this
> difficulty,
> which goes over the nut, extends radially outward for about an
> inch, and
> has a square hole for attachment of the torque wrench. It happened
> that I
> had always torqued the prop bolts on our aircraft. In setting out to
> retorque the bolts yesterday because the weather is now turning cold,
> Peter realized right away that there was a problem. I had never
> used a
> crow's foot (I did not know of their existence!). I'm guessing
> that many
> others using this Rotax/GSC prop installation were also unaware of
> this
> problem. What have others done about this? Were they aware of the
> problem?
>
> John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Toronto/Ottawa/Waterloo
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Is Comcast Blocking the Digest Again?? |
Hey Matt
Me thinks the demons at Comcast are blocking the list again.
I get the homebuilt list daily but I haven't got the Zenith List since the 24'th
Larry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77274#77274
Message 5
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From: "Carl Bertrand" <cgbrt@mondenet.com>
To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 no slats again
Hi Joe
Have followed this thread with interest.
I've experimented with the 701's wing design but not with vgs. I opted for
air pressure operated slats and a thinner airfoil.
For more info on the results see my presentation at: eaa245.dhs.org/
I never considered flying the 701 without slat but I'm not surprised that
it could be a hand full. My take is that the Cof G and the centre of
pressure would move back, the Cp more so causing a nose heavy pitch moment
at all speeds and angles of attack. I would expect all stall speeds to
increase with the clean wing and top speed to probably remain the same or
decrease because of the blunt leading edge.
Adding vgs should delay the stall but should also increase drag?
Very interested in the results anyone gets if you try the no slat
configuration.
Carl 701/912/amphibs
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Torquing GSC Propeller Bolts |
I think you mean 94 "inch" pounds, not foot pounds. That foot lb torque
would crush the prop hub and need 5/8+ prop bolts...
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Trevor Page <webmaster@upac.ca> wrote:
John, I have a similar arrangement of a prop extension on my 601HD but I
'm using a 68" Warp Drive prop.
My extension is a simpler arrangement of a heavy walled 6061 tube with m
atch drilled holes that use long prop bolts to directly bolts the whole
thing to the prop flange. The main concern on mine is not stripping the
threads on either the bolts or the prop flange cause neither are cheap t
o replace! Rotax recommends a max of 94 ft/Lbs on the prop flange accord
ing to my manual. My bolts extend enough past the prop flange to have wa
shers and nuts on the back to keep things from backing out.
Trev PageC-IDUS 601HD R912
On Nov 26, 2006, at 12:37 PM, John M. Goodings wrote:--> Zenith-List mes
sage posted by: "John M. Goodings" <goodings@yorku.ca>
Our CH601HD Zodiac with a Rotax 912S 100 HP engine has a 68-inch, 3-blad
eGSC wooden prop. In our installation, there is a prop flange extension
.The prop is held on by 6 1/4-inch bolts (3 through the aluminum bladero
ots), and by 6 5/16-inch bolts onto the flange extension. GSC Systemssa
ys use 100 inch pounds of torque for the 1/4 inch bolts, and 140 for the
5/16; these values are critical. Normally, with a washer under both the
head and the nut, one holds the bolt head stationary, and torques thenyl
on lock nut; these nyloks are the preferred nuts recommended by GSC.Beca
use of the design of the prop flange extension, it is not possible toget
the torque wrench onto the nuts. Thus, one holds the nut stationary,an
d torques the bolt head. THIS IS NOT THE SAME THING. My son Peter(co-b
uilder of our aircraft, and a professional mechanical engineer) knowsfro
m practical experience that putting the torque wrench on the bolt headca
n undertorque the nut by possibly 20-30%, or even more. It stands torea
son: the bolt shaft (or grip) inevitably experiences some friction inpas
sing through the parts being bolted together on the way to the nut.There
is a little part called a "crow's foot" to overcome this difficulty,whi
ch goes over the nut, extends radially outward for about an inch, andhas
a square hole for attachment of the torque wrench. It happened that Ih
ad always torqued the prop bolts on our aircraft. In setting out toreto
rque the bolts yesterday because the weather is now turning cold,Peter r
ealized right away that there was a problem. I had never used acrow's f
oot (I did not know of their existence!). I'm guessing that manyothers
using this Rotax/GSC prop installation were also unaware of thisproblem.
What have others done about this? Were they aware of theproblem?
John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Toronto/Ottawa/Waterloo
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) November is the Annual List Fund Rai
ser. Click onthis year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided * Ae
roElectric www.aeroelectric.comwww.buildersbooks.comwww.kitlog.comwww.ho
mebuilthelp.com List Contribution Web Site--> http://www.matronics.com/
contributionThank you for your generous support! - The Zenith-L
========================
========================
========================
========================
===================
<html><P>I think you mean 94 "inch" pounds, not foot pounds. That foot l
b torque would crush the prop hub and need 5/8+ prop bolts...</P>
<P>do not archive<BR><BR><BR>Ben Haas<BR>N801BH<BR>www.haaspowerair
.com<BR><BR>-- Trevor Page <webmaster@upac.ca> 
;wrote:<BR>John, I have a similar arrangement of a prop extension on my
601HD but I'm using a 68" Warp Drive prop.</P>
<DIV><BR class=khtml-block-placeholder></DIV>
<DIV>My extension is a simpler arrangement of a heavy walled 6061 tube w
ith match drilled holes that use long prop bolts to directly bolts the w
hole thing to the prop flange. The main concern on mine is not stripping
the threads on either the bolts or the prop flange cause neither are ch
eap to replace! Rotax recommends a max of 94 ft/Lbs on the prop flange a
ccording to my manual. My bolts extend enough past the prop flange to ha
ve washers and nuts on the back to keep things from backing out.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12
px Verdana; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; W
HITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; b
order-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; apple-te
xt-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2">
<DIV>Trev Page</DIV>
<DIV>C-IDUS 601HD R912</DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline></SPAN
></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Nov 26, 2006, at 12:37 PM, John M. Goodings wrote:</DIV><BR clas
s=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John M
. Goodings" <<A href="mailto:goodings@yorku.ca">goodings@yorku.ca</
A>></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Our CH601HD Zodiac with a Rotax 912S 100 HP e
ngine has a 68-inch, 3-blade</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">GSC wooden prop.<SPAN class=Apple-converted
-space> </SPAN>In our installation, there is a prop flange extensi
on.</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">The prop is held on by 6 1/4-inch bolts (3 th
rough the aluminum blade</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">roots), and by 6 5/16-inch bolts onto the fla
nge extension.<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>GSC Syst
ems</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">says use 100 inch pounds of torque for the 1/
4 inch bolts, and 140 for the</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">5/16; these values are critical.<SPAN class=
Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Normally, with a washer under both t
he</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">head and the nut, one holds the bolt head sta
tionary, and torques the</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">nylon lock nut; these nyloks are the preferre
d nuts recommended by GSC.</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Because of the design of the prop flange exte
nsion, it is not possible to</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">get the torque wrench onto the nuts.<SPAN cla
ss=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Thus, one holds the nut station
ary,</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">and torques the bolt head.<SPAN class=Apple
-converted-space> </SPAN>THIS IS NOT THE SAME THING.<SPAN class=
Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>My son Peter</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">(co-builder of our aircraft, and a profession
al mechanical engineer) knows</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">from practical experience that putting the to
rque wrench on the bolt head</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">can undertorque the nut by possibly 20-30%, o
r even more.<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>It stands
to</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">reason: the bolt shaft (or grip) inevitably e
xperiences some friction in</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">passing through the parts being bolted togeth
er on the way to the nut.</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">There is a little part called a "crow's foot"
to overcome this difficulty,</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">which goes over the nut, extends radially out
ward for about an inch, and</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">has a square hole for attachment of the torqu
e wrench.<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>It happened t
hat I</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">had always torqued the prop bolts on our airc
raft.<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>In setting out to
</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">retorque the bolts yesterday because the weat
her is now turning cold,</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Peter realized right away that there was a pr
oblem.<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>I had never used
a</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">crow's foot (I did not know of their existenc
e!).<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>I'm guessing that
many</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">others using this Rotax/GSC prop installation
were also unaware of this</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">problem.<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space>&
nbsp; </SPAN>What have others done about this?<SPAN class=Apple-conver
ted-space> </SPAN>Were they aware of the</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">problem?</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, To
ronto/Ottawa/Waterloo</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; SPAN: ; DIV: " SPAN < - 0px; margin-bottom:
margin-right: margin-top:>(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; cl
ass: " Apple-converted-space?> </SPAN>November is the Annual List
Fund Raiser.<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Click on</
DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" SPAN < 0px; margin-bot
tom: margin-right: margin-top:>this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts
provided</DIV>
<DIV class=Apple-converted-space style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTT
OM: 0px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; SPAN: </DIV><DIV style=" 0px; margin-right
: margin-top:> </SPAN>* AeroElectric <A href="http://www.
aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com</A></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" ww
w.buildersbooks.com? http:>www.buildersbooks.com</A></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; SP
AN: " http: www.kitlog.com?>www.kitlog.com</A></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; SP
AN: " http: www.homebuilthelp.com?>www.homebuilthelp.com</A></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; cl
ass: " Apple-converted-space?> </SPAN>List Contribution Web Site</
DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; style: " SPAN < 0px; m
argin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>--> <A href="http://www.mat
ronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution</A></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; style: " SPAN < 0px; m
argin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>Thank you for your generous supp
ort!</DIV>
<DIV class=Apple-converted-space style="MARGIN: 0px; SPAN: ; DIV: "
0px; margin-right: margin-top:> </SPAN
>- The Zenith-List Email Forum -</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; Matronics: " DIV page,< Subscriptions the
as such utilities List many margin-top:the>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; Ch
at: " 0px; margin-right: margin-top: DIV more:<>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; class: " Apple-convert
ed-space?> </SPAN>--> <A href="http://www.matronics.com/Navig
ator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List</A></DI
V>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px; DIV: " ? 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: ma
========================
========================
HELP <A href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com</A>
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributi
========================
ics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith
========================
================ </B></FONT><PRE></PRE><
/DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pump Placement and Fuel Line Question |
A 70 micron filter is just a fine mesh screen like those found in
gascolators and the screens in automotive fuel tanks. The stuff
blocked by these screens winds up in the sediment bowl or fuel tank
sump where it can be drained during pre-flight. My fuel pumps are
just downstream of the gascolator at the low point of the system. I
certainly wouldn't put anything finer ahead of the pump.
The idea is to minimize any flow restrictions on the inlet side of
the pump to avoid reducing the pressure to the point where the fuel
might vaporize in the line.
On Nov 26, 2006, at 10:07 PM, lwhitlow wrote:
>
>
> Bryan
>
> the Facet install sheet specifies a 70 micon filter on the inlet
> side of the pump
>
> Has anyone else put a filter on the inlet side of the Facet pump??
>
>
>>
>>
>> Bryan wrote
>>
>> I wouldn't put a filter on the suction side of the fuel pump. It
>> isn't necessary and it increases the risk of a fuel stoppage. All you
>> should have on the suction side of the pump is the screen in the
>> tank. The screen keeps the bigger stuff out of the fuel pump and
>> filter will keep the small stuff from clogging the carbureter jets.
>> The filter should go in the line just before the carburetor. Even on
>> cars the filter is on the pressure side of the pump.
>
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 701 slats again |
Carl,
I talked to Chris Heintz at Air Venture several years ago about the 701
airfoil, and the aerodynamic design of the slats. The airfoil is an old
standard airfoil (it is a NACA 640-18) with just a slot added. In other
words, if you simply remove the slot and leave the fixed slat in its design
postion to define the nose of the airfoil, then you have standard NACA
640-18 airfoil. If one wants to remove the slat from the airfoil design, the
original airfoil can be recovered by simply covering the slots with sheet
metal that matches the airfoil contour.
Bob Eli
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Bertrand" <cgbrt@mondenet.com>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:18 AM
Subject: Fw: Zenith-List: 701 slats again
>
>
> From: "Carl Bertrand" <cgbrt@mondenet.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 no slats again
>
> Hi Joe
> Have followed this thread with interest.
> I've experimented with the 701's wing design but not with vgs. I opted for
> air pressure operated slats and a thinner airfoil.
> For more info on the results see my presentation at: eaa245.dhs.org/
> I never considered flying the 701 without slat but I'm not surprised that
> it could be a hand full. My take is that the Cof G and the centre of
> pressure would move back, the Cp more so causing a nose heavy pitch moment
> at all speeds and angles of attack. I would expect all stall speeds to
> increase with the clean wing and top speed to probably remain the same or
> decrease because of the blunt leading edge.
> Adding vgs should delay the stall but should also increase drag?
> Very interested in the results anyone gets if you try the no slat
> configuration.
>
> Carl 701/912/amphibs
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | What size Druzs Fasteners? |
Anybody know or have easy access to what size Druzs fasteners Zenith ships with
the wing locker kit? I need to order the retaining washers that DON'T come with
the kit and can't make it to the airport for a couple of days.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77309#77309
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Is Comcast Blocking the Digest Again?? |
I've got Comcast and haven't had any problems receiving since a while back.
----- Original Message -----
From: "lwhitlow" <ldwhitlow@comcast.net>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:23 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Is Comcast Blocking the Digest Again??
>
> Hey Matt
>
> Me thinks the demons at Comcast are blocking the list again.
>
> I get the homebuilt list daily but I haven't got the Zenith List since the
> 24'th
>
> Larry
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77274#77274
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: What size Dzus Fasteners? |
Dear Gig,
I own a CH2000 which used Zenair part number AJW5-30 Winged Dzus Pin which
are charged out at $3.49 Canadian each, and I just ordered Zenair part
number SR 5 SS Dzus Pin Snap Rings at $0.20 each from Zenair
Canada. These fasteners were used in the top to bottom cowling joint, and
the cowling to airframe. Aircraft Spruce probably sell them too.
Reg
CH2000 in -30F Northern Alberta
At 06:47 AM 11/27/2006 -0800, you wrote:
>
>Anybody know or have easy access to what size Dzus fasteners Zenith ships
>with the wing locker kit? I need to order the retaining washers that DON'T
>come with the kit and can't make it to the airport for a couple of days.
>
>--------
>W.R. "Gig" Giacona
>601XL Under Construction
>See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77309#77309
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | What size Druzs Fasteners? |
AJ5-30
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:47 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: What size Druzs Fasteners?
>
> Anybody know or have easy access to what size Druzs fasteners Zenith ships
> with the wing locker kit? I need to order the retaining washers that DON'T
> come with the kit and can't make it to the airport for a couple of days.
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | CH2000 Winter Front |
Zenair Canada has a winter front baffle for CH2000 /alarus CH640 aircraft
that will help keep the oil temperature higher. Cost was $48.00 Canadian
from the factory. If it ever warms up here I will get around to
installing it. I also ordered new fuel lines because mine are date
expired and I need to renew them for the import inspection. Any one out
there have a supplier for wing covers for the CH2000?
Reg in Edmonton
CH2000
SN 20-0010
Message 14
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| Subject: | Bruce's Custom Cover & CH2000 |
Dear Listmates,
When I enquired about the availability of a Canopy Cover for the CH2000,
many of you sent negative reviews of Bruce's Covers. I want to report
that the Custom Cover I recently received and which was recommended by the
factory in Midland arrived in good condition. This cover perfectly fits
my CH2000, has spots for the door handles, and the hand holds, and is
constructed of high quality materials. I went with Bruce's because of
previous good experiences 12 years ago with a Bruces Cover on an American
AA-5 I previously owned. I realize sometimes a business name remains but
the company has changed and so has the workmanship. I must say I find
that the CH2000 cover is a high quality item. I also ordered engine
intake plugs and they also high quality.
If you have an Alarus or CH2000, Bruce's Cover will do the job, someone
obviously did a very good job of pattern making. Now to find an engine
blanket and wing covers...
Reg in Edmonton Alberta
N8202Z 1995 CH2000
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Coast to coast and back in my 601XLCoast to coast and |
back in my 601XL
Great idea. I went to the Texas Fly-in in Hondo and was the only 701
there.
Paul Tipton
321PT
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: What size Druzs Fasteners? |
Giacona,=0A=0AI don't know off hand. Just food for thought. I made my hol
es for the screws a little larger so it is easyer to line them up when you
close the door. All I did was use an "O" ring over the end of the screw an
d it works good. They have been in place for over two years.=0A=0AAL from
Oshkosh=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Gig Giacona <wr.giacona
@cox.net>=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, November 27, 2006
8:47:48 AM=0ASubject: Zenith-List: What size Druzs Fasteners?=0A=0A=0A-->
Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox.net>=0A=0AAnyb
ody know or have easy access to what size Druzs fasteners Zenith ships with
the wing locker kit? I need to order the retaining washers that DON'T come
with the kit and can't make it to the airport for a couple of days.=0A=0A-
-------=0AW.R. "Gig" Giacona=0A601XL Under Construction=0ASee my
progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online
here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77309#77309=0A=0A
======
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Torquing GSC Propeller Bolts |
Actually Ben the Rotax manual does say 94 foot/lbs of torque on the
prop flange bolts...(most likely a typo which is not unusual)
Warp Drive says to torque the 8mm prop bolts to 175 inch/lbs
Trev Page
C-IDUS 601HD R912
On Nov 27, 2006, at 1:41 PM, n801bh@netzero.com wrote:
> I think you mean 94 "inch" pounds, not foot pounds. That foot lb
> torque would crush the prop hub and need 5/8+ prop bolts...
>
> do not archive
>
>
> Ben Haas
> N801BH
> www.haaspowerair.com
>
> -- Trevor Page <webmaster@upac.ca> wrote:
> John, I have a similar arrangement of a prop extension on my 601HD
> but I'm using a 68" Warp Drive prop.
>
>
> My extension is a simpler arrangement of a heavy walled 6061 tube
> with match drilled holes that use long prop bolts to directly bolts
> the whole thing to the prop flange. The main concern on mine is not
> stripping the threads on either the bolts or the prop flange cause
> neither are cheap to replace! Rotax recommends a max of 94 ft/Lbs
> on the prop flange according to my manual. My bolts extend enough
> past the prop flange to have washers and nuts on the back to keep
> things from backing out.
>
> Trev Page
> C-IDUS 601HD R912
>
>
> On Nov 26, 2006, at 12:37 PM, John M. Goodings wrote:
>
>> <goodings@yorku.ca>
>>
>> Our CH601HD Zodiac with a Rotax 912S 100 HP engine has a 68-inch,
>> 3-blade
>> GSC wooden prop. In our installation, there is a prop flange
>> extension.
>> The prop is held on by 6 1/4-inch bolts (3 through the aluminum blade
>> roots), and by 6 5/16-inch bolts onto the flange extension. GSC
>> Systems
>> says use 100 inch pounds of torque for the 1/4 inch bolts, and 140
>> for the
>> 5/16; these values are critical. Normally, with a washer under
>> both the
>> head and the nut, one holds the bolt head stationary, and torques the
>> nylon lock nut; these nyloks are the preferred nuts recommended by
>> GSC.
>> Because of the design of the prop flange extension, it is not
>> possible to
>> get the torque wrench onto the nuts. Thus, one holds the nut
>> stationary,
>> and torques the bolt head. THIS IS NOT THE SAME THING. My son Peter
>> (co-builder of our aircraft, and a professional mechanical
>> engineer) knows
>> from practical experience that putting the torque wrench on the
>> bolt head
>> can undertorque the nut by possibly 20-30%, or even more. It
>> stands to
>> reason: the bolt shaft (or grip) inevitably experiences some
>> friction in
>> passing through the parts being bolted together on the way to the
>> nut.
>> There is a little part called a "crow's foot" to overcome this
>> difficulty,
>> which goes over the nut, extends radially outward for about an
>> inch, and
>> has a square hole for attachment of the torque wrench. It
>> happened that I
>> had always torqued the prop bolts on our aircraft. In setting out to
>> retorque the bolts yesterday because the weather is now turning cold,
>> Peter realized right away that there was a problem. I had never
>> used a
>> crow's foot (I did not know of their existence!). I'm guessing
>> that many
>> others using this Rotax/GSC prop installation were also unaware of
>> this
>> problem. What have others done about this? Were they aware of the
>> problem?
>>
>> John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Toronto/Ottawa/Waterloo
>>
>>
>> < 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>(And Get Some
>> AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
>> November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on
>> < 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>this year's
>> Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided
>> * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com
>> www.buildersbooks.com
>> www.kitlog.com
>> www.homebuilthelp.com
>> List Contribution Web Site
>> < 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>--> http://
>> www.matronics.com/contribution
>> < 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>Thank you for your
>> generous support!
>> - The Zenith-List Email Forum -
>> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>> www.homebuilthelp.comtp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
>> www.matronics.com/contributi========================ics.com/
>> Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?
>> Zenith=======================================
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: What size Druzs Fasteners? |
Good idea. Unfortunatly I already ordered the retainers from AS. Thanks though.
agbeyer(at)sbcglobal.net wrote:
> Giacona,
>
> I don't know off hand. Just food for thought. I made my holes for the screws
a little larger so it is easyer to line them up when you close the door. All
I did was use an "O" ring over the end of the screw and it works good. They
have been in place for over two years.
>
> AL from Oshkosh
>
>
> ---
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77398#77398
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Torquing GSC Propeller Bolts |
Has everyone seen this?
Crash kills aviation enthusiast; Pellien was only one aboard aircraft when it
went down in woods near Bryce
by John Collins
As darkness settled over western Shenandoah County, firefighters and rescue
workers stood along the winding Greenview Drive near Bryce Resort. A hoseline
was ready, but it wasnt needed.
All the emergency crews could do was wait as five members of the Virginia State
Police started an investigation.
The workers were on the scene of a plane crash that took the life of James J.
Jim Pellien. State police identified the 58-year-old man as a resident of Alexandria,
but resort residents said that Pellien had a house at Bryce.
The state police are investigating the crash, led by Trooper A.S. Waybright.
Also studying the crash are the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and the
National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB).
Authorities released little information about the circumstances of the crash,
which occurred at 4:30 p.m. Saturday.
The aircraft struck trees returning to the airport under unknown circumstances,
said Todd Gunther, an air safety investigator with the NTSB.
On Monday, the fixed-wing aircraft, a Czech-made two-seater propeller plane,
remained on the steep hillside where it crashed Saturday. Yellow crime scene tape
surrounded the wreckage, about 1 mile northeast of the Sky Bryce Airport.
NTSB investigators hoped to remove the plane later in the day to take it to a
secure, undisclosed location for an in-depth inspection.
The plane, commonly called a Zodiac CH601, was upright, facing down the hill
among trees and briars. The canopy was shattered, and the wings and tail were
mangled.
One of the propellers three blades stood straight up, unbent. Everything appeared
to be contained to an area of roughly 400 square feet.
While authorities had little to say about the circumstances surrounding the crash,
residents in the area shared their observations.
Helen Burton lives down the street from the crash site. She had her kitchen door
open because of the unseasonably warm weather Saturday.
She said that its not unusual for planes to fly over her house.
I seem to be in a flight pattern, Burton said.
The plane went over, and Burton noticed a change in the planes sound.
I was aware that it was not as loud as it was, she said.
Then came a very loud crash, Burton said.
Burtons neighbor, Lisa Dellinger, also heard the crash, but didnt immediately
realize what shed heard.
I heard what I thought was multiple gunshots, because its hunting season, but
unfortunately, it was the crash, Dellinger said, looking over the scene from
a neighbors house.
Burton called Dellinger after hearing the crash.
I said, I dont think it was a gunshot. I think it was a plane crash, Burton said.
Weather did not appear to be a factor in the crash, according to Gunther, who
said that there was a 10-mile visibility at the time of the crash. That meant
that pilots could fly under visual flight rules (VFR), where they can rely on
their vision and not on their instrument panel.
In other words, the weather was good, Gunther said.
Saturdays crash was the second CH601 accident in the U.S. in November. On Nov.
4, two people died in California when their plane went down in what witnesses
described as an explosion.
There was no fire in Saturdays crash, Gunther said.
Aviation enthusiast
Pellien was a man who loved to fly, and who loved to get others in the air, according
to Bryce residents.
Pelliens CH601, built by Czech Aircraft Works in 2005, was the first plane to
earn the FAAs special light-sport aircraft certificate.
Light sport planes were a major part of Pelliens last years. He owned a business
at Sky Bryce Airport, Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes, which he used to sell the
planes. Sport planes have less restrictive rules for pilot licensing than do
traditional private airplanes.
He also ran a flight school, which was featured in Popular Mechanics one year
ago. The flight school offered would-be pilots the chance to earn their sport
pilot license in as little as one week.
This past September, Pellien organized an airshow of sport planes at the airport.
After New York Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle died when his plane crashed into a
Manhattan high-rise building, the Wall Street Journal did a story on the sport
pilot licenses. In the story, Pellien was interviewed about the fact that sport
pilots dont have to pass as many physical criteria for their licenses.
He compared the process to what truckers face, using it as an opportunity to
point out what he felt was an inequity for pilots.
Truckers only need a drivers license, Pellien told the Wall Street Journal. But
before sport-pilot licenses, you had to have a special medical certificate
to fly a small aircraft less than half the size of an SUV.
Back at Bryce on Monday, clouds made for a dismal day. But residents remembered
Pelliens love for flying.
Kevin Urbine attended Our Lady of the Shenandoah Catholic Church with Pellien.
He loved flying. I know that, he said.
In fact, according to Urbine, its both fortunate and unusual that nobody was
with Pellien in the plane when it went down.
[Its] surprising he didnt have someone else with him, Urbine said.
NTSB investigates
The National Transportation Safety Board is tasked by Congress with investigating
every civil aviation accident that results in substantial damage or serious
injury. That amounts to approximately 2,000 investigations per year, Gunther
said.
The agencys goal, he said, is to find the cause of the accident and examine the
facts, conditions and circumstances that relate to a transportation accident.
Three NTSB investigators and an FAA representative responded to the crash site
Saturday night from Washington, D.C. They conducted field investigations that
night and all day Sunday, Gunther said.
The on-site investigation features interviews with ear and eyewitnesses, as well
as examining the crash site through photos, measurements and plenty of note-taking.
Eventually, the NTSB workers will examine everything that could have contributed
to the crash, including the aircrafts structure, assembly and fuel, control
and hydraulic systems. They will look at the weather and the terrain of the
crash site, as well as the performance and health of the pilot.
We dont eliminate anything, Gunther said.
In the first seven to 10 days after the accident, the NTSB will release a preliminary
report. Six to nine months later, they will release a longer factual
report, which will be followed in 30 to 60 days by a statement of probable cause.
The last fatal aviation accident in Shenandoah County was in May of 2001 when
a plane suffered engine failure and came up short of an emergency landing at
New Market Airport.
Trevor Page <webmaster@upac.ca> wrote:
Actually Ben the Rotax manual does say 94 foot/lbs of torque on the prop flange
bolts...(most likely a typo which is not unusual)
Warp Drive says to torque the 8mm prop bolts to 175 inch/lbs
Trev Page
C-IDUS 601HD R912
On Nov 27, 2006, at 1:41 PM, n801bh@netzero.com wrote:
I think you mean 94 "inch" pounds, not foot pounds. That foot lb torque would
crush the prop hub and need 5/8+ prop bolts...
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Trevor Page <webmaster@upac.ca> wrote:
John, I have a similar arrangement of a prop extension on my 601HD but I'm using
a 68" Warp Drive prop.
My extension is a simpler arrangement of a heavy walled 6061 tube with match
drilled holes that use long prop bolts to directly bolts the whole thing to the
prop flange. The main concern on mine is not stripping the threads on either
the bolts or the prop flange cause neither are cheap to replace! Rotax recommends
a max of 94 ft/Lbs on the prop flange according to my manual. My bolts extend
enough past the prop flange to have washers and nuts on the back to keep
things from backing out.
Trev Page
C-IDUS 601HD R912
On Nov 26, 2006, at 12:37 PM, John M. Goodings wrote:
Our CH601HD Zodiac with a Rotax 912S 100 HP engine has a 68-inch, 3-blade
GSC wooden prop. In our installation, there is a prop flange extension.
The prop is held on by 6 1/4-inch bolts (3 through the aluminum blade
roots), and by 6 5/16-inch bolts onto the flange extension. GSC Systems
says use 100 inch pounds of torque for the 1/4 inch bolts, and 140 for the
5/16; these values are critical. Normally, with a washer under both the
head and the nut, one holds the bolt head stationary, and torques the
nylon lock nut; these nyloks are the preferred nuts recommended by GSC.
Because of the design of the prop flange extension, it is not possible to
get the torque wrench onto the nuts. Thus, one holds the nut stationary,
and torques the bolt head. THIS IS NOT THE SAME THING. My son Peter
(co-builder of our aircraft, and a professional mechanical engineer) knows
from practical experience that putting the torque wrench on the bolt head
can undertorque the nut by possibly 20-30%, or even more. It stands to
reason: the bolt shaft (or grip) inevitably experiences some friction in
passing through the parts being bolted together on the way to the nut.
There is a little part called a "crow's foot" to overcome this difficulty,
which goes over the nut, extends radially outward for about an inch, and
has a square hole for attachment of the torque wrench. It happened that I
had always torqued the prop bolts on our aircraft. In setting out to
retorque the bolts yesterday because the weather is now turning cold,
Peter realized right away that there was a problem. I had never used a
crow's foot (I did not know of their existence!). I'm guessing that many
others using this Rotax/GSC prop installation were also unaware of this
problem. What have others done about this? Were they aware of the
problem?
John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Toronto/Ottawa/Waterloo
< 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>(And Get Some AWESOME FREE
Gifts!)
November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on
< 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>this year's Terrific Free Incentive
Gifts provided
* AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com
www.buildersbooks.com
www.kitlog.com
www.homebuilthelp.com
List Contribution Web Site
< 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>--> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
< 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>Thank you for your generous support!
- The Zenith-List Email Forum -
--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
www.homebuilthelp.comtp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributi========================ics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith===============
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
Message 20
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| Subject: | Zodiac 601XL Performance Again (sorry) |
Sorry to bring this up once again... but why does the Zenith website claim
this performance figure?=0A=0AI think this figure below is for the Rotax.
=0A=0A75% CRUISE @ 8,000 ft. (TAS*)155 mph=0A=0A=0Ahttp://www.zenithair.co
m/zodiac/xl/performance.html=0A=0A=0AI would love this to be true... =0Abut
like my mother tried to beat in my head ... if it's too good to be true...
=0Ahow does that go?=0A=0AKind Regards,=0AAndy Abreu
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: What size Druzs Fasteners? |
I used what I think were 5/16" e-clips from Home Depot. They fit the groove.
Dave G
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77420#77420
Message 22
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| Subject: | C-85 in 601XL??? |
I am early in my 601XL build and am still considering engine choices. I have the
opportunity to use a C-85 engine. It was meant for another project that will
probably never get completed due to the builders age. It is a close family
member, so if I asked for it, I could probably get it for free.
Has anybody put a C-85 in an XL or ever considered it? I am concerned with how
much of a deficit I would see in speed, max weight and useful load vs. the published
and actuals people are seeing with the Rotax and Jabiru engines.
Thanks for any advice or opinions,
Dave G
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77422#77422
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: 701 slats again |
All that is true however you will have moved the leading edge of the wing back
4 inches, thus needing to redo your moment and ARM. Or the CG will be off.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Robert N. Eli" <robert.eli@adelphia.net>
>Sent: Nov 27, 2006 8:52 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 slats again
>
>
>Carl,
>
>I talked to Chris Heintz at Air Venture several years ago about the 701
>airfoil, and the aerodynamic design of the slats. The airfoil is an old
>standard airfoil (it is a NACA 640-18) with just a slot added. In other
>words, if you simply remove the slot and leave the fixed slat in its design
>postion to define the nose of the airfoil, then you have standard NACA
>640-18 airfoil. If one wants to remove the slat from the airfoil design, the
>original airfoil can be recovered by simply covering the slots with sheet
>metal that matches the airfoil contour.
>
>Bob Eli
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Carl Bertrand" <cgbrt@mondenet.com>
>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:18 AM
>Subject: Fw: Zenith-List: 701 slats again
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Carl Bertrand" <cgbrt@mondenet.com>
>> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>>
>> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 no slats again
>>
>> Hi Joe
>> Have followed this thread with interest.
>> I've experimented with the 701's wing design but not with vgs. I opted for
>> air pressure operated slats and a thinner airfoil.
>> For more info on the results see my presentation at: eaa245.dhs.org/
>> I never considered flying the 701 without slat but I'm not surprised that
>> it could be a hand full. My take is that the Cof G and the centre of
>> pressure would move back, the Cp more so causing a nose heavy pitch moment
>> at all speeds and angles of attack. I would expect all stall speeds to
>> increase with the clean wing and top speed to probably remain the same or
>> decrease because of the blunt leading edge.
>> Adding vgs should delay the stall but should also increase drag?
>> Very interested in the results anyone gets if you try the no slat
>> configuration.
>>
>> Carl 701/912/amphibs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | 601XL - Engine out / Glide Experience |
Hello All,=0A =0AI am planning to build a 601XL in the near future and have
been reading the recent threads about the unfortunate loss of a 601XL and
pilot.=0A =0AI don't know what happened and don't want to speculate about w
hat happened, etc. I would like to know if anyone has experience with simul
ated engine out landings and would share those experiences with the group?
I would also appreciate any experiences with how the 601XL glides during si
mulated engine out practice and any comparisons to other aircraft, i.e. Ces
sna 172, etc. =0A =0AThanks in advance,=0A =0ASteven=0A=0A
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Zodiac 601XL Performance Again (sorry) |
You do realize that is True Airspeed?
http://www.paragonair.com/public/aircraft/calc_TAS.html
aabreu wrote:
> Sorry to bring this up once again... but why does the Zenith website claim this
performance figure?
>
> I think this figure below is for the Rotax.
>
> 75% CRUISE @ 8,000 ft. (TAS*)
> 155 mph
>
>
> http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/performance.html (http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/performance.html)
>
>
> I would love this to be true...
> but like my mother tried to beat in my head ... if it's too good to be true...
> how does that go?
>
> Kind Regards,
> Andy Abreu
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77434#77434
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Zodiac 601XL Performance Again (sorry) |
aabreu wrote:
> 75% CRUISE @ 8,000 ft. (TAS*) 155 mph
I have a Rotax 912S in my Zodiac witrh fixed pitch prop (17 degrees). I get about
130MPH at sea level and more at altutude (TAS). If I were to put a in-flight
adjustable, I might do considerably better (so I'm told) ... so you don't know
what prop equipement they are quoting either.
--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77439#77439
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: 701 slats again |
I don't know about the 701 but,, the 801's slat leading edge profile is
nothing like the wings leading edge profile. I will look very close at a
701 when I see one to see if it's like the bigger brothers. I would NEV
ER remove my 801's slats and fly with just the wing alone. but heck, tha
ts just me... YMMV.
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Robert N. Eli" <robert.eli@adelphia.net> wrote:
net>
Carl,
I talked to Chris Heintz at Air Venture several years ago about the 701
airfoil, and the aerodynamic design of the slats. The airfoil is an old
standard airfoil (it is a NACA 640-18) with just a slot added. In othe
r
words, if you simply remove the slot and leave the fixed slat in its des
ign
postion to define the nose of the airfoil, then you have standard NACA
640-18 airfoil. If one wants to remove the slat from the airfoil design,
the
original airfoil can be recovered by simply covering the slots with shee
t
metal that matches the airfoil contour.
Bob Eli
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Bertrand" <cgbrt@mondenet.com>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:18 AM
Subject: Fw: Zenith-List: 701 slats again
>
>
> From: "Carl Bertrand" <cgbrt@mondenet.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 no slats again
>
> Hi Joe
> Have followed this thread with interest.
> I've experimented with the 701's wing design but not with vgs. I opted
for
> air pressure operated slats and a thinner airfoil.
> For more info on the results see my presentation at: eaa245.dhs.org/
> I never considered flying the 701 without slat but I'm not surprised t
hat
> it could be a hand full. My take is that the Cof G and the centre of
> pressure would move back, the Cp more so causing a nose heavy pitch mo
ment
> at all speeds and angles of attack. I would expect all stall speeds to
> increase with the clean wing and top speed to probably remain the same
or
> decrease because of the blunt leading edge.
> Adding vgs should delay the stall but should also increase drag?
> Very interested in the results anyone gets if you try the no slat
> configuration.
>
> Carl 701/912/amphibs
>
>
>
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
<html><P>I don't know about the 701 but,, the 801's slat leading edge pr
ofile is nothing like the wings leading edge profile. I will look very c
lose at a 701 when I see one to see if it's like the bigger brother
s. I would NEVER remove my 801's slats and fly with just the wing alone.
but heck, thats just me... YMMV.</P>
<P>do not archive<BR><BR><BR>Ben Haas<BR>N801BH<BR>www.haaspowerair
.com<BR><BR>-- "Robert N. Eli" <robert.eli@adelph
ia.net> wrote:<BR>--> Zenith-List message post
ed by: "Robert N. Eli" <robert.eli@adelphia.
net><BR><BR>Carl,<BR><BR>I talked to Chris Heintz
at Air Venture several years ago abo
ut the 701 <BR>airfoil, and the aerodynami
c design of the slats. The airfoil&n
bsp;is an old <BR>standard airfoil (it is&
nbsp;a NACA 640-18) with just a slot
added. In other <BR>words, if you&n
bsp;simply remove the slot and leave the&n
bsp;fixed slat in its design <BR>postion t
o define the nose of the airfoil, the
n you have standard NACA <BR>640-18 airfoi
l. If one wants to remove the slat&nb
sp;from the airfoil design, the <BR>original&nb
sp;airfoil can be recovered by simply cove
ring the slots with sheet <BR>metal that&n
bsp;matches the airfoil contour.<BR><BR>Bob Eli<BR><
BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Carl
Bertrand" <cgbrt@mondenet.com><BR>To: <zenith-l
ist@matronics.com><BR>Sent: Monday, November 27,
2006 8:18 AM<BR>Subject: Fw: Zenith-List: 701&n
bsp;slats again<BR><BR><BR>> --> Zenith-List m
essage posted by: "Carl Bertrand" <cgbrt@mon
denet.com><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>&nb
sp;From: "Carl Bertrand" <cgbrt@mondenet.com><BR>&g
t; To: <zenith-list@matronics.com><BR>><BR>>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 no slats aga
in<BR>><BR>> Hi Joe<BR>> Have followed 
;this thread with interest.<BR>> I've experi
mented with the 701's wing design but 
;not with vgs. I opted for<BR>> air&nbs
p;pressure operated slats and a thinner ai
rfoil.<BR>> For more info on the result
s see my presentation at: eaa245.dhs.org/
<BR>> I never considered flying the 701
without slat but I'm not surprised t
hat<BR>> it could be a hand full.
My take is that the Cof G and th
e centre of<BR>> pressure would move ba
ck, the Cp more so causing a nose&nbs
p;heavy pitch moment<BR>> at all speeds 
;and angles of attack. I would expect 
;all stall speeds to<BR>> increase with 
;the clean wing and top speed to prob
ably remain the same or<BR>> decrease b
ecause of the blunt leading edge.<BR>>
Adding vgs should delay the stall but 
;should also increase drag?<BR>> Very intere
sted in the results anyone gets if yo
u try the no slat<BR>> configuration.<BR>>
;<BR>> Carl 701/912/amphibs<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
========================
========================
sp; -- Please Support Your Lists Thi
nbsp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE&nb
nbsp;Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on<BR
s year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts pro
p; * The Builder's Bookstore www.builders
bsp; &n
bsp; -Matt Dra
========================
========================
se the Matronics List Features Navigator t
e Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Cha
========================
====================<BR></P></ht
ml>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Torquing GSC Propeller Bolts |
Don't forget to calibrate the torque wrench before torquing down the
bolts.
in the meantime check with the folks at Rotax to verify the max torque
on
the flange.... 94 inch pounds seems a bit slight. 94 ft. lb. way over
the
top! Unless you are talking about the torque required to mount the
flange
to the crank.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Trevor Page
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Torquing GSC Propeller Bolts
Actually Ben the Rotax manual does say 94 foot/lbs of torque on the prop
flange bolts...(most likely a typo which is not unusual)
Warp Drive says to torque the 8mm prop bolts to 175 inch/lbs
Trev Page
C-IDUS 601HD R912
On Nov 27, 2006, at 1:41 PM, n801bh@netzero.com wrote:
I think you mean 94 "inch" pounds, not foot pounds. That foot lb torque
would crush the prop hub and need 5/8+ prop bolts...
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Trevor Page <webmaster@upac.ca> wrote:
John, I have a similar arrangement of a prop extension on my 601HD but
I'm
using a 68" Warp Drive prop.
My extension is a simpler arrangement of a heavy walled 6061 tube with
match
drilled holes that use long prop bolts to directly bolts the whole thing
to
the prop flange. The main concern on mine is not stripping the threads
on
either the bolts or the prop flange cause neither are cheap to replace!
Rotax recommends a max of 94 ft/Lbs on the prop flange according to my
manual. My bolts extend enough past the prop flange to have washers and
nuts
on the back to keep things from backing out.
Trev Page
C-IDUS 601HD R912
On Nov 26, 2006, at 12:37 PM, John M. Goodings wrote:
<goodings@yorku.ca>
Our CH601HD Zodiac with a Rotax 912S 100 HP engine has a 68-inch,
3-blade
GSC wooden prop. In our installation, there is a prop flange extension.
The prop is held on by 6 1/4-inch bolts (3 through the aluminum blade
roots), and by 6 5/16-inch bolts onto the flange extension. GSC Systems
says use 100 inch pounds of torque for the 1/4 inch bolts, and 140 for
the
5/16; these values are critical. Normally, with a washer under both the
head and the nut, one holds the bolt head stationary, and torques the
nylon lock nut; these nyloks are the preferred nuts recommended by GSC.
Because of the design of the prop flange extension, it is not possible
to
get the torque wrench onto the nuts. Thus, one holds the nut
stationary,
and torques the bolt head. THIS IS NOT THE SAME THING. My son Peter
(co-builder of our aircraft, and a professional mechanical engineer)
knows
from practical experience that putting the torque wrench on the bolt
head
can undertorque the nut by possibly 20-30%, or even more. It stands to
reason: the bolt shaft (or grip) inevitably experiences some friction in
passing through the parts being bolted together on the way to the nut.
There is a little part called a "crow's foot" to overcome this
difficulty,
which goes over the nut, extends radially outward for about an inch, and
has a square hole for attachment of the torque wrench. It happened that
I
had always torqued the prop bolts on our aircraft. In setting out to
retorque the bolts yesterday because the weather is now turning cold,
Peter realized right away that there was a problem. I had never used a
crow's foot (I did not know of their existence!). I'm guessing that
many
others using this Rotax/GSC prop installation were also unaware of this
problem. What have others done about this? Were they aware of the
problem?
John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Toronto/Ottawa/Waterloo
< 0px; margin-bottom: margin-right: margin-top:>(And Get Some AWESOME
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Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: C-85 in 601XL??? |
DaveG601XL wrote:
> I have the opportunity to use a C-85 engine. It is a close family member, so
if I asked for it, I could probably get it for free.
It's tough to beat "free" ... but I'm sure someone on this forum will tell you
this or that engine is better. There are quite a few loyalists behind each model.
The useful load specs that they publish on the Zenith site are bogus (in my opinion).
The best I've seen is 590 lbs useful load with a Rotax 912. I suppose if
you didn't paint the aircraft, and you didn't count the weight of oil and the
1/2 gallon of unusable fuel in each tank ... you might approach the 630 lbs
quoted in the specs; but I doubt it.
I can speak only for the Rotax. Weight is a big factor in a small plane, like the
Zodiac. The O-200 is about 45 pounds heavier than the Rotax 912S, which will
reduce your max pilot+copilot weight (with full tanks) to about 365 lbs. The
Jabaru 3300 is also a very popular option because it's about 5 lbs heavier than
the Rotax with an extra 10 HP (and with the simplicity of an air cooled engine).
If you keep the O-200 (because the price is unbeatable) then you should look for
ways to save weight. The landing bar that comes with the kit is 40 lbs all by
itself (ouch). There is a composite gear from CZAW that is much lighter (see
Aircraft Spruce) but requires some changes to the design. You'll save about 25
lbs that way, and rear of the CG where you'll need to lose it (the Zodiac tends
have a heavy rear).
You can probably save a bit more depending on the choice of prop and battery. Little
hear, little there.
--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77450#77450
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Re: Bruce's Custom Cover & CH2000 |
tya2(at)4-fly.net wrote:
> many of you sent negative reviews of Bruce's Covers. I want to report that
the Custom Cover I recently received arrived in good condition.
I also bought a cover from them for the CH2000. No complaints. Good workmanship.
I believe they also sell the engine and wing covers too. I just got an e-mail
advert from them ... I'll have to dig it out of the bin.
--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77452#77452
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: 701 slats again |
I may have caused some misunderstanding by my use of the word "remove".
I am not advocating removal of the 701 slat. The point I was making is
that Chris Heintz designed the 701 slat by simply starting with the NACA
640-18 airfoil shape and then adding the opening (the gap between the
slat and the rest of the wing) through which the air flows from the
lower surface to the upper surface. He sketched this very process for
me by drawing the original airfoil first, and then adding the air slot
afterwards, to divide the nose of the airfoil from the remaining aft
portion. You can in effect "remove" the slat by covering the openings on
top and bottom. Doing this "removes" the slat, returning the wing
airfoil to its original NACA 640-18 shape. Covering the slat openings so
that the original NACA 640-18 shape results should not cause a major
change in the center of pressure at normal flight angles of attack (and
hence stability). Of course, the lift will be significantly reduced at
high angles of attack.
Bob Eli
N701K
----- Original Message -----
From: n801bh@netzero.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 slats again
I don't know about the 701 but,, the 801's slat leading edge profile
is nothing like the wings leading edge profile. I will look very close
at a 701 when I see one to see if it's like the bigger brothers. I would
NEVER remove my 801's slats and fly with just the wing alone. but heck,
thats just me... YMMV.
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Robert N. Eli" <robert.eli@adelphia.net> wrote:
<robert.eli@adelphia.net>
Carl,
I talked to Chris Heintz at Air Venture several years ago about the
701
airfoil, and the aerodynamic design of the slats. The airfoil is an
old
standard airfoil (it is a NACA 640-18) with just a slot added. In
other
words, if you simply remove the slot and leave the fixed slat in its
design
postion to define the nose of the airfoil, then you have standard NACA
640-18 airfoil. If one wants to remove the slat from the airfoil
design, the
original airfoil can be recovered by simply covering the slots with
sheet
metal that matches the airfoil contour.
Bob Eli
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Bertrand" <cgbrt@mondenet.com>
To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:18 AM
Subject: Fw: Zenith-List: 701 slats again
<cgbrt@mondenet.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: "Carl Bertrand" <cgbrt@mondenet.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 no slats again
>
> Hi Joe
> Have followed this thread with interest.
> I've experimented with the 701's wing design but not with vgs. I
opted for
> air pressure operated slats and a thinner airfoil.
> For more info on the results see my presentation at:
eaa245.dhs.org/
> I never considered flying the 701 without slat but I'm not surprised
that
> it could be a hand full. My take is that the Cof G and the centre of
> pressure would move back, the Cp more so causing a nose heavy pitch
moment
> at all speeds and angles of attack. I would expect all stall speeds
to
> increase with the clean wing and top speed to probably remain the
same or
> decrease because of the blunt leading edge.
> Adding vgs should delay the stall but should also increase drag?
> Very interested in the results anyone gets if you try the no slat
> configuration.
>
> Carl 701/912/amphibs
>
>
>
>========================
========================s
p; -- Please Support Your Lists Thinbsp; (And Get Some AWESOME
FREE&nbnbsp;Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on
Message 32
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|
| Subject: | Re: Zodiac 601XL Performance Again (sorry) |
I can't speak for the Jabaru, so don't flame me anyone. I just got the figures from here: http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/specification.html
My experience is with the Rotax 912S.
--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77468#77468
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | RE: C-85 in 601XL??? |
Dave,
I have a good friend that is almost complete with his 601HDS with Cont O-200.
He is too old to fly it, but has been very slowly plugging along on the
aircraft for over 12 years. I think he was one of the very first kit buyers.
He is now too old to even work on it, and has friends do the work. His wife
asked me to finish the project, which I hope to do, but I am too busy getting
mine back in the air. He has a mold in the shop for a custom cowling to house
the engine. I am not sure if he bought or built his engine mount. I also know
that he has a Warp Drive to put on it, and put the battery behind the seats.
If you e-mail me off-list with specific questions about the installation,
I can call and ask.
R/
Brandon
---------------------------------
Message 34
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| Subject: | 601XL - Engine out / Glide Experience |
Steven:
I would like to know as well. I am also considering building the Zodiac but
I would like to know glide speed and glide ratio information as well.
If anyone responds, please cc me as well.
Thanks,
Josh Olson
Email: mrbizi@yahoo.com
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven Janicki
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 5:54 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL - Engine out / Glide Experience
Hello All,
I am planning to build a 601XL in the near future and have been reading the
recent threads about the unfortunate loss of a 601XL and pilot.
I don't know what happened and don't want to speculate about what happened,
etc. I would like to know if anyone has experience with simulated engine out
landings and would share those experiences with the group? I would also
appreciate any experiences with how the 601XL glides during simulated engine
out practice and any comparisons to other aircraft, i.e. Cessna 172, etc.
Thanks in advance,
Steven
Message 35
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| Subject: | Zodiac 601XL Performance Again (sorry) |
Andre:
FYI. This figure is based on the Jabiru 3300 install I believe.
Josh Olson
Email: mrbizi@yahoo.com
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andre Abreu
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:39 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Zodiac 601XL Performance Again (sorry)
Sorry to bring this up once again... but why does the Zenith website claim
this performance figure?
I think this figure below is for the Rotax.
75% CRUISE @ 8,000 ft. (TAS*)
155 mph
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/performance.html
I would love this to be true...
but like my mother tried to beat in my head ... if it's too good to be
true...
how does that go?
Kind Regards,
Andy Abreu
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL - Engine out / Glide Experience |
Steven,
Do a zenith archive search for 'engine out' and read:
Message: #33028
From: xl <xl(at)prosody.org>
Subject: here's a report on my 601XL engine out sink rate
I turned my engine off and didn't go down like a brick.
I haven't shut off a Cessna engine, can't do it if it's not my plane,
but at idle you'd best turn to the runway early.
Joe E
N633Z @ BFI
CH601XL, 405 hours
Jabiru 3300, Sensenich 49x64 wood prop
On Mon, 27 Nov 2006, Steven Janicki wrote:
> I am planning to build a 601XL in the near future and have been reading
> the recent threads about the unfortunate loss of a 601XL and pilot.
> I don't know what happened and don't want to speculate about what
> happened, etc. I would like to know if anyone has experience with
> simulated engine out landings and would share those experiences with the
> group? I would also appreciate any experiences with how the 601XL glides
> during simulated engine out practice and any comparisons to other
> aircraft, i.e. Cessna 172, etc.
> Thanks in advance, Steven
> do not archive
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