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Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!)

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wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!)

After four years of off again, on again flying lessons, three address changes, three kinds of airplanes and four instructors, I finally passed my check ride last weak! It was not without some drama however as when it came time for the flying part of the test my Kitfox refused to start. The examiner offered that I could complete the examination using one of the rentals they had available. I elected take him up on the offer and completed my check ride in a Cessna 152 despite the fact that it had been almost two years since I had flown a Cessna and even then it was a 172. No doubt the examiner afforded me a little more latitude then usual as he passed me despite some difficulty in holding a stable altitude during maneuvers and a less than stellar demonstration of a short field landing.



I returned to my Kitfox after the check ride hoping that I would not have to find alternate transportation to my home airport which was 150 driving miles away. To start my kitfox I normally resort to a technique that I read about on this list whereby the engine is first cranked for 10 sec with the mags off to prime the carbs. I then start as normal with one full turn past idle of the vernier throttle. I gather that my motor is more stubborn than most as it usually takes a bit of cranking even at this point. On this occasion however, the motor showed no signs of life at all even though I persisted in cranking until the battery began to show signs of wearing down. Wondering if had somehow flooded the cylinders with fuel, I removed one of the lower spark plugs but found it completely dry. 



At this point, one of the attendants from the local FBO offered me a jump start from some battery powered utility cart. I fear that the experience will likely have shortened the life of my starter by at least half as the procedure provided enough power to the starter to crank the motor to 400 RPM for several seconds before it finally started.



She seemed to be running smoothly at that point so I elected to fly her home with a close eye on all the gauges and plenty of altitude. On the following day, she started and ran normally. Any suggestions or ideas would be greatly appreciated. I'll add that she's always run a bit rough between 2000 and 2500 RPM when cold though I have no idea if this is related.

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:46 pm Post subject: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!)

Sounds a bit like a vapour lock even though that  usually only happens to an over heated engine.

How was the power once you got  it started?  Did you check the fuel pumps? Are there impulse lines on the  912???

I think I would try installing a proper carb primer that pumps a  squirt of gas right down the throat of the carb for starting and give up on the  cold cranking.



 

[img]cid:366164502(at)10072007-1F96[/img]  

 Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern

 Campbellton, Newfoundland, 

 Canada

 Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA

 Aerocet 1100s

 noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)

 

 

 Do not archive

 

 

 

[quote] --

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Giovanni Day

Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 43

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!)

Do you use the choke for starting? If not start using them. If I do not use them it is near impossible to get my UL started. When I use them It only turns over 2-3 revs before starting.

_________________
_______________________________________
Giovanni Day
Model 4 speedster 912

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!)

 	  Quote: 	
		  Are there impulse lines on the 912???

I think I would try installing a proper carb primer that pumps a squirt of gas right down the throat of the carb for starting and give up on the cold cranking. 	


I don't know what an 'impulse line' is but I've considered installing a primer. Maybe it's time I do that.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Do you use the choke for starting? If not start using them. If I do not use them it is near impossible to get my UL started. When I use them It only turns over 2-3 revs before starting. 	


Holy cow! Two revs? There must be something wrong with my setup then. I use the choke but it doesn't seem to help.  There's a shop about 50 miles north west of me that specializes in Rotax. I guess it's time to take it in and have it inspected thoroughly.

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

Giovanni Day

Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 43

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!)

Your carbs may be gummed up so that the choke is not working. Also you could need new spark plugs.

_________________
_______________________________________
Giovanni Day
Model 4 speedster 912

jeburke94je(at)hughes.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:57 am Post subject: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!)

CONGRATS!!!!

 [quote]   ---

jeburke94je(at)hughes.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:57 am Post subject: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!)

CONGRATS!!!!

---

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:10 am Post subject: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!)

First off, congrates on the ticket.



Starting the 912ul can be a bear if you don't do it right.  First off, you need the choke on both carbs.  If you only have it on one, than call John and get the a choke cable set up that will do both.  Next when you crank it over without the mags on, this is when it hasn't been started for a while, do it with the choke pulled out. If it's over 60degrees outside start with about 4 seconds of this.  Then go ahead and turn on the mags and start, be ready to pull the choke, if it runs crappy than pull the choke out.  If it continues to run rough, quickly shut it down and start over, mags off and choke out and run the starter for another 4 seconds.  Then turn on the mags and start the engine.  Make sure that when you use the choke with mags off that the throttle is pull all the way OFF.  When you have the mags on have the throttle part throttle in the 2000rpm possision.  hope this helps.

kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:17 am Post subject: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!)

luis, try full off on the throttle and full on with the choke. this is much more effective for me.  lately I further reduced the idle position of the throttle and found it to be even more easy to start.  My start position of the idle is down in the 1400 range. 

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "wingnut" <wingnut(at)spamarrest.com> 



[quote] --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" 

 

 [quote]Are there impulse lines on the 912??? 

 I think I would try installing a proper carb primer that pumps a squirt of gas 

 right down the throat of the carb for starting and give up on the cold cranking. 

 [/quote 

 I don't know what an 'impulse line' is but I've considered installing a primer. 

 Maybe it's time I do that. 

 

 

 > Do you use the choke for starting? If not start using them. If I do not use 

 them it is near impossible to get my UL started. When I use them It only turns 

 over 2-3 revs before starting. 

 

 Holy cow! Two revs? There must be something wrong with my setup then. I use the [b]>  [quote][b]

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:17 pm Post subject: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!)

Luis,



I have the idle stop set at about 1600 RPM.  Another suggesteed 1400 - I 

might try that setting.  Rotax recommends something above 2000 for smoother 

idling with the torsional vibration damper in the gear box.  I like the 

lower stop as if the stop is set at 2000 RPM float is increased on landing.



What I meant to say is that I do the choking at the 1600 setting - throttle 

full retarded and then a half turn or so in and I am close to the Rotax 

recommended idle setting.



Lowell



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Giovanni Day

Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 43

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!)

I have my throttle set so I can kill the engine with the throttle if I like. I usually turn the mags off and pull the throttle all the way out on shut down. This reduces the shutdown vibration. Also I start the engine with the throttle around 1200-1400rpm setting and quickly release the choke and throttle up to 1700-1800 when it fires off. I do not turn the motor over with the mags off and have no trouble getting it started, even if it has sat a week or more.

_________________
_______________________________________
Giovanni Day
Model 4 speedster 912

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!)

In case anyone was wondering. It turns out that the problem was simply that I wasn't pulling the choke hard enough. The nob has always been a little sticky and I'd been reluctant to pull on it too hard for fear of breaking something. A local A&P at the airport inspected the carbs while I held the choke lever at the position that I was accustomed to and he informed me that the choke was not fully actuated. I just needed to put a little more muscle into it. Now she starts right off. No need to crank with the mags off. This is how a fifteen thousand dollar motor is supposed to run .

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

kitfoxpilot(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!)

You should check how the choke cables are routed, sometimes to much bend or 

curve can cause the choke knob to be hard to pull!



Ray

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "wingnut" <wingnut(at)spamarrest.com>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!)

Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:26:45 -0700






In case anyone was wondering. It turns out that the problem was simply that 

I wasn't pulling the choke hard enough. The nob has always been a little 

sticky and I'd been reluctant to pull on it too hard for fear of breaking 

something. A local A&P at the airport inspected the carbs while I held the 

choke lever at the position that I was accustomed to and he informed me 

that the choke was not fully actuated. I just needed to put a little more 

muscle into it. Now she starts right off. No need to crank with the mags 

off. This is how a fifteen thousand dollar motor is supposed to run .



--------

Luis Rodriguez

Model IV 1200

Rotax 912UL

Flying Weekly

Laurens, SC (34A)





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123529#123529






	


_________________________________________________________________

Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!  

http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: Starting problems (also: I passed my check ride!)

Luis,



I drilled a hole through the plastic choke knob and threaded a key ring 

through it then put some black vinyl tubing - drip system - on the ring to 

hide the chrome.  It makes it easy to pull.



Lowell Fitt

Cameron Park, CA

Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Warp

1998 870 hrs.



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