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Castellated Nuts.
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rmacpunk(at)netzero.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: Castellated Nuts.

The plans indicate using locknuts  on the  control cables attack points but my friend (AI) says must use castellated nuts  with cotter pins.

    [quote][b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: Re: Castellated Nuts.

I, as usual, don't have the plans in front of me but thinking of the cable connections I have done according to the plans.



1. Rudder Horn- castellated nuts with cotter pins.

2. Rudder control at the pedals- castellated nuts with cotter pins.

3. Elevator at the stick- castellated nuts with cotter pins.

4. Elevator horn- castellated nuts with cotter pins.



I do have older plans and kit so they might have changed it.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Castellated Nuts.

I believe the rule is, any bolt that's subject to torsional forces, like a pivot point, should have a castelle nut and cotter pin, not a locknut.



Additionally, any locking nut application (not a cotter pin nut) that's in a high heat area, like the engine compartment, should use a fully metal lock nut, not a nylon insert for the locking effect. Of course, you should never reuse a locknut of either type. You're probably supposed to always use a new cotter pin too whenever a castelle nut is reinstalled.



[quote="rmacpunk(at)netzero.net"]The plans indicate using locknuts  on the  control cables attack points but my friend (AI) says must use castellated nuts  with cotter pins.

     	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Gus(at)flywithgus.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:36 am Post subject: Castellated Nuts.

Wrong.



AC43.13-1B 7-64.f You can reuse if minimum prevailing torque is met. For 

the smaller diameters we use mostly you can reuse as long as noticeable 

drag is felt when engaging the locking area. Also if you can remove a 

cotter pin without rendering it unusable then it wasn't installed 

properly. AC43.13-1B 7-127



-Gus



ashontz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Of course, you should never reuse a locknut of either type. You're probably supposed to always use a new cotter pin too whenever a castelle nut is reinstalled.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:56 am Post subject: Re: Castellated Nuts.

I said probably. Even so, for 99 cents I'd probably just put a new one in there.



 	  Gus(at)flywithgus.com wrote: 	
		  Wrong.



AC43.13-1B 7-64.f You can reuse if minimum prevailing torque is met. For 

the smaller diameters we use mostly you can reuse as long as noticeable 

drag is felt when engaging the locking area. Also if you can remove a 

cotter pin without rendering it unusable then it wasn't installed 

properly. AC43.13-1B 7-127



-Gus



ashontz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Of course, you should never reuse a locknut of either type. You're probably supposed to always use a new cotter pin too whenever a castelle nut is reinstalled.

daveaustin2(at)primus.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:42 pm Post subject: Castellated Nuts.

Here in Canada a castellated nut and lock pin must be installed at any place 

where the nut/bolt combination is not torqued up.  That covers pretty well 

everything where a bolt is used as a pivot.

Dave Austin  601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII

Aerolitellc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:13 am Post subject: Castellated Nuts.

I would recommend not using castellated nuts for the rudder cables that  attach to the foot peddles and whatever Zenith indicates everywhere else.  There were a couple of people that have worked the cotter pins out with  their shoes catching the pin and Van's aircraft had you change out the castle  nuts and replace them with nylon locking nuts. And I found you could have the  same problem with the 601.

  	  Quote: 	
		  The    plans indicate using locknuts  on the  control cables attack points    but my friend (AI) says must use castellated nuts  with cotter    pins.

	


 

  



Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

  [quote][b]

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: Castellated Nuts.

not smart to NOT use castlenuts where there is motion, the motion could back out a noncastle nut.  CAstle nuts need to be used where the is motion directly on the nut.  such as the stering rods, control horns, etc. with the correct attachements of cotter pins there would not be problems with pins coming undone.



Juan



--

jmcburney(at)pobox.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:55 am Post subject: Castellated Nuts.

Hi, Bob,



Your AI is right.  The rule is, if the bolt/nut is in tension (i.e., torqued

tight, no rotation) then locknuts are okay, but when ANY rotation is

present, as with clevis bolts, a castellated nut and cotter pin are

required.  Makes sense.



Blue skies and tailwinds



Jim

CH-801

DeltaHawk diesel

Augusta GA

90% done, 90% left

SABorns(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: Castellated Nuts.

43-13 says that castle nut and cotter pins be used whenever the fitting is  subject to rotation.

  

 Steven  Bornstein

475 E. North Broadway

Columbus, Ohio 43214

614 263-5819   

  In a message dated 4/23/2008 3:16:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net writes:

 [quote]-->    Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega    <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net>



not smart to NOT use castlenuts where    there is motion, the motion could back out a noncastle nut.  CAstle nuts    need to be used where the is motion directly on the nut.  such as the    stering rods, control horns, etc. with the correct attachements of cotter pins    there would not be problems with pins coming    undone.



Juan



--

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: Castellated Nuts.

I know the regs but in the case of  the foot pedal cables you can snag the pin with your shoe or pants and work it  loose and when it rotates the pin can fall out allowing the nut to back off.  Van's has about the same set up for the rudder cables and after a few pins  came out they advised NOT to us castle nuts in that  situation.

  

 43-13 says that castle nut and  cotter pins be used whenever the fitting is subject to rotation.

 [quote]    

   Steven    Bornstein

475 E. North Broadway

Columbus, Ohio 43214

614 263-5819     

      In a message dated 4/23/2008 3:16:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,    amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net writes:

   [quote]-->      Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega      <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net>



not smart to NOT use castlenuts      where there is motion, the motion could back out a noncastle nut.       CAstle nuts need to be used where the is motion directly on the nut.       such as the stering rods, control horns, etc. with the correct attachements      of cotter pins there would not be problems with pins coming      undone.



Juan



--

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:02 pm Post subject: Re: Castellated Nuts.

It seems to me that we can be pretty sure a non-torqued locknut is going to come off sooner or later and is only slightly less likely to back off than a castle nut without the pin.



So while I understand the foot hanging on it and pulling the pin is bad there should be a better way to deal with the problem than using a nut that is very likely to fall off.



How about some type of cap for the castle nut that protects the pin?

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Thruster87

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 193
Location: Australia

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Castellated Nuts.

You can roll the split pin ends back into itself thus NO ENDS sticking out to catch anything. That's what we do on our A/C and you also don't cut your hands working around them Cheers

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: Castellated Nuts.

A rudder pedal castle nut could be secured with something unorthodox like a

split ring that wouldn't catch on a pants leg.



-- Craig



--

gfmjr_20(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: Castellated Nuts.

There are AN safety clips that look like safety pins used to secure casle nuts when the nuts are to be periodically removed. I have them on my Kiyfox on the wing attach bolts which can be removed so that the wings swing back for transportation.

  

 George May

 601XL 912s



[quote] From: craig(at)craigandjean.com

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Castellated Nuts.

 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:15:13 -0600

 

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com>

 

 A rudder pedal castle nut could be secured with something unorthodox like a

 split ring that wouldn't catch on a pants leg.

 

 -- Craig

 

 --

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: Castellated Nuts.

Guys you don't use a castle nut on your seat belt attach or the canopy bolt  or a number of other places that you don't tighten the nut I would agree that  there might be hundreds of ways to address this issue but to say the nut will  fall off eventually is a bit of a stretch. I liked the idea of looping the pin  but a safety type pin would seem a bit better. Or I guess you could simply spot  weld the nut on.  That last one was a joke.

  

 Do not archive



Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

  [quote][b]

paulrod36(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject: Castellated Nuts.

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  That won't happen if you "navy" the cotter pins. You bend the legs all the  way around until they meet the loop in the head of the cotter pin, then cut off  the excess, and bend them down tight. (My old A&P showed me that one.) The  most prehensile toes, shod or not, can't snag what isn't snaggable.

  

 Paul Rodriguez

 [quote]   ---

paulrod36(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: Castellated Nuts.

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Of course, you could also insert the bolt from inside, so the castellated  nut is under the footbar, thereby unreachable by foot, 

  

 Paul Rodriguez Original Message ----- 

 [quote]   From: Gig Giacona (wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net) 

   To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com) 

   Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 5:02    PM

   Subject: Re: Castellated    Nuts.

   



--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net (wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net)>



It    seems to me that we can be pretty sure a non-torqued locknut is going to come    off sooner or later and is only slightly less likely to back off than a castle    nut without the pin.



So while I understand the foot hanging on it and    pulling the pin is bad there should be a better way to deal with the problem    than using a nut that is very likely to fall off.



How about some type    of cap for the castle nut that protects the pin?



--------

W.R.    &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

601XL Under Construction

See my progress    at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR





Read    this topic online here:



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leinad

Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 283
Location: Central Virginia

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Castellated Nuts.

Of course on a rod end the nut clamps the ball of the connecting rod tight.  The only motion is between the ball and the socket.  The front of the steering rod (at least on my plans) uses a rod end.



As a point of interest for those that will only use a nylock nut once, I made a homemade hole cutter..  This tools used a 3/16 bolt with a locknut as the pivot for the center of the hole.  This was one of those 1/2 height nuts, not even full thread.  I cut every lightening hole on the airframe with that tool using the same nut and bolt.  The nut faced aggressive turning motion with every one of the holes that I cut, including all the rib lightening holes.  The nut never backed off.  It must have been on and off a hundred times.



Anyway I'm comfortable using them twice, as (like Gus mentioned) they haven't been over torqued.

Dan



 	  Quote: 	
		  



"amyvega2005(at)earthlink."]not smart to NOT use castlenuts where there is motion, the motion could back out a noncastle nut.  CAstle nuts need to be used where the is motion directly on the nut.  such as the stering rods, control horns, etc. with the correct attachements of cotter pins there would not be problems with pins coming undone.



Juan



--

_________________
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine

msherman95632(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject: Castellated Nuts.

Gig.

 

I would have to disagree that a non-torqued lock nut is only slightly less likely to back off.  Your kidding, right.  That is the hole point of having a lock nut, so they don't back off.  

 

I would think the manufacture of the nuts would do vibration tests that lasted thousands of hours with loose nuts to prove the design.

 

You could always use a  bushing, such as on the rudder, then the bolt is torqued against the bushing allowing you to use a lock nut.

 

Mark S.

701/912ULS

do not archive

 

---

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