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cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

Wow, I go off to work (yes, back to the grindstone) and come home to lots of advice and even an ellery offer (um...no thx).



Waycross airport IS my normal airstrip, and I mentioned it had 6000ft to let you guys know that I know I have PLENTY of room.



Grant, I don't think your instructor weighs that much either...when he flew it did he add weight?  

You asked about my signoff - that's a long story.  I had to go to Tennessee to find an instructor familiar with Kolb.  We flew a Kolb but it wasn't my Mark II, so that's why I haven't flown mine with someone in it.  I know it'll carry two good size people because when I bought it the man took me up in it.  After I bought it I started the process of getting the airworthiness certificate.  Couldn't fly it until that was completed and once that was completed there was a five hour minimum solo flight restriction - couldn't even take up an instructor with me.  Couldn't find anyone locally willing to fly off the five hours for me.  And I couldn't solo my plane until someone signed me off to fly it.  An endless red-tape circle!  



With Jim's help (to whom I am eternally grateful) I got signed off.  I've flown off the five hours.  I'm close to getting my private certificate.  And like John said, I'm eager to take someone up with me.  Not to show off, but to share the joy of flying and the wonderful view.  But as I hope you all can tell from my questioning, I'm very safety conscience and I tend to follow rules closely (thus the red-tape making me go in circles searching for a loop hole or way to be able to fly my plane legally).  I, like John, certainly don't want to do anything to hurt anyone or myself.  Everyone seems to have differing opinions of what is safe.  



On the Mark II there is a middle bar that leans over into the passenger's seat making it only about 12 inches wide.  If you're wider than that you have a bar jabbing you in the hip.  That doesn't leave much room to add bags of anything or even a container.  I mean...it's a small seat.  For a quick flight around the pattern (and going up high enough to find the new approach speed) is all I'd probably take someone up for because any longer than that and they're going to have a mighty sore hip.

_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

Snoopy Baxley

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 42

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

Hey Crystal and fellow Kolb friends

 I trained in a Kolb Mk11 with a Rotax 503 before I soloed in my  single place Kolb... I can still remember my instructor stressing air speed and  altitude as my two best friends .. With a combined pilot and trainee weight  of plus 400 pounds the Kolb flew more like a cargo plane than anything else  but was still quite a very stable platform ... I had no problems landing or  taking off just remembering taking a much longer distance for each ... Choosing  to cut the engine off on landing to coast to a quicker stop on the 1600 foot  grass strip we had landed in ... The main thing is to be safe and be prepared  ... Take the advice of those that's been there before... Obey your instructor  and know your airplane well..... 

  

 Stephen Baxley

 2003 Kolb Firefly

 South Georgia 17J

 www.southernflyersul.com

  

 Do not Archive

  



Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.

  [quote][b]

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

The W/B says the pilot weight should be a minimum of 195#. I weight 150#. So I need at least 45# ballast to fly solo. So with the proper ballast the  plane will be 120# lighter with out my instructor  in it.  

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   

   
	


   

If you put say 10 or 15 lbs in the nose,,,  would do as much or more than 45 lbs in the seat.    Putting the weight in the nose will give it a much greater moment arm.     

   

And what should you expect.....    take off will be only 2/3 as long and much quicker acceleration.  Climb will be faster.   The roll trim may be different.  You will need less elevator trim...  be prepared to be amazed.  

   

Boyd Young  

MKIIIC  912  

225+ hours and counting.   

       [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

He paid around $120 for the flight but I

am not going to fly him until I feel a bit happier at the prospect. >>



Hi Cristal,



I wrote the above only yesterday.  Unfortunately yeterday evening was soo 

perfect that I took the bull by the horns, rang the guy who bought the 

flight and offered to fly him .



Introduced the guy to the plane, did a walk round with him.Explained what I 

was doing and strapped him in. Fired up and taxied out.

Now, the farmer has cut my field and there is hay lying everywhere, drying. 

The strip has been raked clear but not the taxyway.  Taxied out very 

gingerly through the hay and went right to the end of the strip. Unusual as 

I usually use only a part of it.

Told the passenger what was going to happen. Got him to move his hip away 

from the dual throttle. Move his feet away from the pedals, move his left 

arm so that I could operate the flaps

Ran through my mental checklist Controls, ballast, straps, intsruments trim 

Flaps... At this point I decided that I should check to see if I had picked 

up a load of hay  round the mains or the tailwheel. Mains clear, eased my 

straps to look out of the door to check the tailwheel. All OK. Tightened 

straps completed checklist with Canopy( left over from gliding days) it 

means check doors now, and Brakes, keep feet clear.

Opened the throttle, tail up, speed building.... we should be in the air by 

now. Thinks...nil wind.....perhaps the passenger is heavier than 

expected...going like the clappers now....too late to stop...hedge coming 

up....drag the stick back and she reluctantly took off.

She was flying OK but not climbing as expected. Speed was ok so I just kept 

going pretending to the passenger that all was normal.  Arrived some time 

later at 1000 ft and throttled back and finally had time to think.

You have got there by now. Right! . I had forgotten to set the takeoff Flap.

Enough for one flight you might think. But.. Flew to our home village, 

passenger happily taking pics, circuited over the village and then flew on 

when I noticed that the oil temp was in the red and the oil pressure had 

dropped.

Very calmly I announced that something wasn`t quite right  and it would be 

prudent to fly back. Eased throttle and began to lose height and arrived at 

the strip about 10 minutes later.. Pressure was still low but the temp had 

eased a bit. Made a reasonable circuit apart from having to fight the 

passenger for the flap lever, it really is an abortion, and then I messed up 

the landing.

Allowing for the extra weight I arrived over the hedge at about 70 instead 

of 60.In nil wind that was close to the ground speed. We whistled in.  The 

touchdown itself was a greaser but we took up about three quarters of the 

strip wheras I am usually down in less than half. The passenger of course 

thought this was quite normal.

Just to put the lid on everything. When I taxied in I found that the rear of 

the plane was covered in oil Yuck. Engine frame, prop, fuselage, tail 

feathers. It seems that when I changed the oil a couple of days ago I over 

filled it, I hadn`t done an oil change before. and the excess had blown out 

of the breather tube.

Luckily while I was cleaning up a couple of mates landed in a Jabiru and 

kindly took my passenger off fora flight.

Over a beer later I was happy to hear my passenger say that although the 

Jabiru was comfortable and quiet he preferred the Kolb beause of the 

visibility.



If it can go wrong it will.  All reminds me of a cartoon in a RAF 

iinstructional magazine during the war. A whole bomber crew arriving at the 

Pearly Gates saying "We forgot the checklist"



Today luckily has been quite nice weather and I have spent the day cleaning 

oil from everything and arranging a bottle and a piece of hose for the blow 

tube to lead into. Looking forward to checking the oil temp and pressure on 

the next flight.



cheers



Pat

cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  I took the bull by the horns, rang the guy who bought the 

flight and offered to fly him .



Pat 	




Pat, Thanks for sharing your experience.  I'm glad you and your passenger made it safely home.

_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

I took the bull by the horns, rang the guy who bought the

 	  Quote: 	
		   flight and offered to fly him .

 >
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Pat


	




Patrick:



"Taking the bull by the horns is a good way to get gored."



Glad you did not kill or injure your innocent passenger.



Over the years I have been flying Kolbs, I have made it a hard and fast rule 

to test fly the airplane solo before I put an innocent passenger in the 

other seat.  Do that every day I fly passengers to insujre it is good to go. 

If I discover there is something not normal about the airplane, or me, after 

I am airborne, then it is only me and the Kolb that have to deal with the 

problem.



In the US, if we build our Kolbs to be "homebuilt/experimental category", 

normally, we must fly off a 40 hour test period, solo.  We are not legally 

authorized to fly a passenger until we have flown off our test time.  This 

gives the pilot a lot of time to get to know his airplane before he attempts 

to fly with a passenger.



High engine oil temp and low oil pressure is a pretty good indication of an 

impending engine failure.  But you know all that, of course.



Take care,



john h

mkIII

hauck's holler, alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:42 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

"Taking the bull by the horns is a good way to get gored."



Hi John,Good one. I will remember that.  After all my good advice to Cristal 

about being properly prepared, I had to get it all wrong.



<<Over the years I have been flying Kolbs, I have made it a hard and fast 

rule to test fly the airplane solo before I put an innocent passenger in the

other seat.>>



I had flown the day before. What I hadn`t done was fly since my oil change. 

I dont see quite how , until I investigate further, but I suspect that the 

low pressure and the high temps were related to the oil change somehow. Hot 

oil on the sensor perhaps?

I drained the oil out yesterday and only refilled to a much lower level. 

Ground ran the engine for a long period (It was too rough to fly) and 

evrything seems OK. I good grind around the patch within gliding distance of 

my strip seems to be indicated before going further. Luckily most of the 

hayfields are cut so there are plenty of big field to put her down in if the 

worst happens.



I managed not to scare my passenger anyhow. . He rang me up to thank me for 

the flight and asked to fly again.



Cheers



Pat

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:04 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

Pat, Thanks for sharing your experience.>>



Hi Cristal,



Glad you liked it, and learned from it, I hope.. At least my stupidity can 

do someone a bit of good.



They say that bad things happen in threes. In this case It was 1) Absolutely 

zero wind, 2) Not putting in enough trim to compensate for the passenger 

weight. 3) Missing the flap setting from my interrupted Check list.



Good .luck. Keep us posted with your progress.



Cheers



Pat

gaman(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:50 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

Pat,

    What powers your Kolb?



---

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

What powers your Kolb?



  

 I have a Jabiru. The only engine which is cleared  for use on the Xtra in the UK. The others put the weight above the ultralight  limit.

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

Ricochet

Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 36
Location: Fresno, CA

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

Pat,



What prop are you using with your Jab and how many blades?  Three blades on a pusher are reported to be considerably quieter than two, but wooden props are normally recommended, though perhaps difficult to find.  I've got a Jab on another bird and am considering hanging it on a Kolb, but not certain which one.  Kinda miss the Firestar I had and slewing sideways in a crosswind now and then.

Jerry



On Jun 25, 2008, at 12:54 PM, pj.ladd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   What powers your Kolb?



 

I have a Jabiru. The only engine which is cleared for use on the Xtra in the UK. The others put the weight above the ultralight limit.

 

Pat

 	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	


 [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:39 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

What prop are you using with your Jab and how many  blades?>>

  

 Hi Jerry,

 prop is  2 blade, wooden GT/157.  157 cms  dia X 98cms pitch.

  

 The dealer reports better performance with the  Prince `P` tip.

  

 I have found the combination very noisy indeed  although I think it can only be the result of the `pusher` configuration as  Jabi`s in normal tractor config are super quiet.

  

 I would like to run the exhausts so that it is  expelled outside the diameter of the prop to see if that makes it quieter.  Unfortunately it would be pretty expensive to get a one off system made and  there would be a weight penalty.We do not have your freedom to experiment and a  change like that would need permission for a modification from the Light  Aircraft Assoc.

  

 Incidentally if anyone on the list has a noise  problem, and a solution, I would be pleased to hear about it. The ordinary noise  from a 912 and a Jabi are pretty similar so any comments would probably be valid  

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

Patrick:

  

 We aren't flying Cessna Citations or Lear  Jets.  Some of us are building these things in the basement and flying them  out of cow pastures.  They are noisy as Hell and I don't know that anyone  has built a quiet one yet.  I think the problem is the engine and prop are  on the wrong end.  When I am at Lakeland and OSH, I am always amazed at how  quiet the tractors are, powered with the same prop and engine I  have.

  

 Get a good ANR headset, learn how to fly your  airplane, see if you can get to TBO next year, and enjoy the Hell out of  it.

  

 I plan on doing that, if I can.  Tomorrow  morning flying to Harris Field, Raleigh, MS, home of Paul Petty's  ex-Father-In-Law.  Going to do some Kolbra tweaking, get a BFR out of the  way, eat some home grown vegetables and fried chicken.  Hope to beat the  thunderstorms by getting out of here early in the morning, and back home again  early tomorrow morning.  A 400 mile round trip flight is good for the  soul.  Haven't done a cross country since I returned from out West the  first of June.

  

 Two weeks until John Bickham's Nauga Field Flyin at  Star Hill, LA.  Everyone is invited.  Prefer flying in, but if you  can't fly, hitch a ride and get there the best way you can.  I can assure  you you will have a ball.  These folks know how to take care of their  guests.  Most of the old gang that flew cross country flights with John W  will be there to honor our old buddy, tell lies, eat good, and maybe play a  little Knock Knock Poker if the weather turns sour.  See ya'll  there!!!

  

 Take care,

  

 john h

 mkIII

 2,800+ hours and counting in the old mkIII, Miss  P'fer (p fer plane)

  

  

  	  Quote: 	
		      Incidentally if    anyone on the list has a noise problem, and a solution, I would be pleased to    hear about it. The ordinary noise from a 912 and a Jabi are pretty similar so    any comments would probably be valid 

    

   Cheers

    

   Pat

 	  Quote:

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

gaman(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:11 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

Pat,

  Noise is a problem.Here is a picture of my home made exhaust system.Also requires sealing the fuselage tube to keep exhaust from coming up the tube.



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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

.Here is a picture of my home made exhaust  system.>>

  

 Hi,

 I had something on those lines in mind.  Did  it accomplish anything?

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

Ricochet

Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 36
Location: Fresno, CA

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

Pat,



As a former Jab-powered Titan driver, both the four and the six, and now in a tractor, I can vouch for what you say.  Pushers are inherently noisy because the propeller is chopping disturbed air from over the wings.  With a 2-blade, both blades are chopping at the same time, kinda doubling the noise produced, hence the advantage of a 3-blade is that only one blade is chopping the air. Another lesson learned is that shorter props, and hence less tip speed, are quieter.  I was swinging 58 inch props which were much quieter than friends who put on 62 inch props.  Warp drive props, I have since learned, are presumably okay for the Jabs, and hence a 3-blade setup is possible.

Jerry



On Jun 26, 2008, at 7:36 AM, pj.ladd wrote:

[quote]What prop are you using with your Jab and how many blades?>>

 

Hi Jerry,

prop is  2 blade, wooden GT/157.  157 cms dia X 98cms pitch.

 

The dealer reports better performance with the Prince `P` tip.

 

I have found the combination very noisy indeed although I think it can only be the result of the `pusher` configuration as Jabi`s in normal tractor config are super quiet.

 

I would like to run the exhausts so that it is expelled outside the diameter of the prop to see if that makes it quieter. Unfortunately it would be pretty expensive to get a one off system made and there would be a weight penalty.We do not have your freedom to experiment and a change like that would need permission for a modification from the Light Aircraft Assoc.

 

Incidentally if anyone on the list has a noise problem, and a solution, I would be pleased to hear about it. The ordinary noise from a 912 and a Jabi are pretty similar so any comments would probably be valid

 

Cheers

 

Pat

 	  Quote: 	
		  	
[b]

Ricochet

Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 36
Location: Fresno, CA

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

Oh, yeah, Pat, another claimed way to reduce noise was to install a prop extension, pushing the prop back one to three inches.



Jerry



On Jun 26, 2008, at 11:09 AM, gary aman wrote:

[quote]Pat,

  Noise is a problem.Here is a picture of my home made exhaust system.Also requires sealing the fuselage tube to keep exhaust from coming up the tube.



 Incidentally if anyone on the list has a noise problem, and a solution, I would be pleased to hear about it. The ordinary noise from a 912 and a Jabi are pretty similar so any comments would probably be valid 

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

 



<CIMG1758.JPG>

[b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:13 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

We aren't flying Cessna Citations or Lear  Jets.  Some of us are  flying them out of cow pastures.  They are  noisy as Hell and I don't know that anyone has built a quiet one  yet.>>

  

 Hi John,

 I fly from a cow pasture too, but we just do not  have the room that you do in the States. You can`t start an engine here without  annoying somebody and unless you get the plane noise certificated you will not  fly.  I am noise  legal but it is still noisy. The guy who owns the  strip is very twitchy as there is a movement in the local village to close it.  In spite of the fact that it has been there more than 30 years.  The  trouble is a complaint to the local Council is almost always carried through in  spite of the hundreds in the area who do NOT complain. Consequently we never do  circuits or fly close to the strip. Take off and fly away is the  rule.

  

  

 <<  I think the problem is the engine  and prop are on the wrong end.  When I am at Lakeland and OSH, I am always  amazed at how quiet the tractors are, powered with the same prop and engine I  have.>>

  

 Ithink you are right. A Jabiru flew into my strip a  couple of days ago and it was like a sewing machine.Almost noiselss at 300  feet.

  

 <<Get a good ANR  headset,>>

 Tried to get a ANR retrofit for my headphones.  Would you believe that the series I have   are the only ones in the  manufacturers range which cannot be converted . In any case I am not  particularly bothered, its other people. This week from 1500 ft I broke up an  open air Shakespeare play rehearsal.. I have been threatened with sudden death  if I pull the same stunt on a performance night..

  

 learn how to fly your airplane, and enjoy the Hell  out of it.>>  I am learning and I am really enjoying it

  

 << Hope to beat the thunderstorms by  getting out of here early in the morning,>>

  

 We have the hell of a thunderstorm going on at the  moment. Rain is sheeting down and its the first night of the Outdoor Shakespeare  performance.  Wendy is in it and will NOT be pleased..

  

 Two weeks until John Bickham's Nauga Field Flyin at  Star Hill, LA.  Everyone is invited.  Prefer flying in, but if you  can't fly, hitch a ride and get there the best way you can.>>

  

 Definitely will not be making it to the States this  year  Say `Hello` to all those I met at MV last  year. 

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

Pushers are  

inherently noisy  because the propeller is chopping disturbed air from  

over the  wings.>>

  

 Hi Jerry,

  

 that is about the conclusion I have come to.  Messing with props is again not a simple operation here.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

gaman(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

Pat,

 Would you prefer the truth or do you want me to tell you how much it helped?I lined the entire cabin and over head center cover with 1/2" denso foam sound control foam.Doesn't weigh much and now I can actually use the intercom at 2700 rpm,but not at full throttle.It's not the engine,it's the prop.It sounds so good at 1800 I wish it would fly at that rpm.I really thought that a geared engine would get the prop noise down to a tolerable level,but I can't address that.I think Mr. Pike has made some cabin mods that may be more productive in suppling cleaner air flow to the prop,which may reduce noise.Like John said,I guess I'll just have to get OVER it and enjoy the flight!



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