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Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !

 	  Quote: 	
		  I just never 

heard of this device called a spherical "bolt"...which, of course, it 

is not...a "bolt" that is. 	




Lynn, you have to of been around helicopters to get the lingo.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:00 pm Post subject: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !

That must be it....around 'copters, I'm clueless.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying

do not archive



On Feb 9, 2009, at 9:19 PM, Tom Jones wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

> I just never

> heard of this device called a spherical "bolt"...which, of course, it

> is not...a "bolt" that is.

 Lynn, you have to of been around helicopters to get the lingo.



 --------

 Tom Jones

 Classic IV

 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp

 Ellensburg, WA





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 29467#229467

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

helili(at)chahtatushka.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:42 am Post subject: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !

Well, I spent 26 years as a military helicopter pilot and maintenance

officer and haven't heard rod end bearings referred to as anything other

than rod end bearings on a helicopter.

John Hart

KF IV, NSI Subaru

Wilburton, OK



--

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:44 am Post subject: Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !

Sorry about the bolt mixup.  Our tail rotors have very similar looking parts and I have a tendency to make my words only accurate enough to get people to understand me.  So yeah, rod ends.  And here is what I have going on.



Some of the rod ends were able to slide back and forth on the bolt which held it in place.  This was some of the slop that I found, I put washers in to keep the rod end from slipping.



There are a few locations where the bolt holding the rod end is able to wiggle a little in the outer holes.  So even if it had a nice new snug rod end there would be some play.  So what is the solution for an area like this?

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:24 am Post subject: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !

I have a tendency to use MORE words than is necessary, so we ought to  

be able to come to a good understandable average. : )



When you say "There are a few locations where the bolt holding the  

rod end is able to wiggle a little in the outer holes."   I assume by  

"the bolt holding the rod end" you mean the bolt that goes through  

the spherical bearing in the rod end, correct? Let's call that the  

"cross bolt" or a "pivot bolt" to differentiate it from the threaded  

end of the linkage that the rod end bearing screws onto. Now when you  

say "wiggle a little in the outer holes"...where are these "outer  

holes" you refer to? I'm looking at my builder's manual, and I'm not  

seeing any "outer holes", so I think we need to get to the heart of  

the matter here first. Unless I'm missing something, there are no  

outer holes...which might suggest selectable holes...in my manual, or  

on my plane, so I'm trying to find out where these holes are that you  

refer to. I'm starting to imagine that maybe a builder had drilled  

some extra holes into certain parts to modify the control surfaces,  

and if so, you might want to think again about buying this plane.



Can you take pictures of the parts in question...from various angles?  

Don't spare the words...or the pictures in this case. People need to  

see exactly what parts you are talking about so they can help you  

decide whether this plane has been altered, and if so, if it is safe  

to continue on with it....my opinion only.



Looking back over your previous posts, it sounds like the builder  

"reamed every single hole over size."...your words. I'm starting to  

get very nervous about this build, and I think you should too.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying





On Feb 10, 2009, at 9:44 AM, WurlyBird wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil>



 Sorry about the bolt mixup.  Our tail rotors have very similar  

 looking parts and I have a tendency to make my words only accurate  

 enough to get people to understand me.  So yeah, rod ends.  And  

 here is what I have going on.



 Some of the rod ends were able to slide back and forth on the bolt  

 which held it in place.  This was some of the slop that I found, I  

 put washers in to keep the rod end from slipping.



 There are a few locations where the bolt holding the rod end is  

 able to wiggle a little in the outer holes.  So even if it had a  

 nice new snug rod end there would be some play.  So what is the  

 solution for an area like this?



 --------

 Prospective Kitfox buyer

 Here for information on airframes and engines





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 29530#229530

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !

Lynn, I am just gonna toss a little snake oil out here....



I am thinking (that gets me into alot of trouble) that the outer hole whurlygigahelichopter is referring to would be the "fork" that the bolt goes through in which the heim joint is captured.  Say the flaperon mixer for instance. On the back side of the flap handle, under the seat the handle has a fork in which the rod end bolts through.  Whurly gig a guy is saying that the forks were reamed out to big so now the bolt hole has slop in it.  The only answer to that is new parts, weld build up and reaming to he proper size, or is there is enough "meat" you could drill oversize for a bushing.



snakeman.... out



EDIT to add the PDF file for a picture of what the bad word we are talking about

whurlygigahelichopter clarification.PDF

Description:

Download

Filename:

whurlygigahelichopter clarification.PDF

Filesize:

35.89 KB

Downloaded:

400 Time(s)

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:39 am Post subject: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !

At 06:44 AM 2/10/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Some of the rod ends were able to slide back and forth on the bolt which held it in place.  This was some of the slop that I found, I put washers in to keep the rod end from slipping.



 There are a few locations where the bolt holding the rod end is able to wiggle a little in the outer holes.  So even if it had a nice new snug rod end there would be some play.  So what is the solution for an area like this? 	


 James,

         (I hope it's James. I do wish you'd put your name, location, and aircraft type / status in your signature.) With a rod end you're expected to torque the bolt through the ball to maximum. This helps prevent any slop between the bolt and ball and between the bolt and clevis. (The outer holes.) It's particularly useful in low-load implementations like control systems. The only slop you should have should be in the rod end itself, and that should be negligible. Of course you'll have to make sure the rod end fits the clevis closely before you torque so you don't bend the clevis, but it sounds like you've already done that by adding washers. Above all, keep asking the questions. The web is a horrible medium for fixing problems but it seems like we nearly always get there eventually. (Also, if you put your location in your signature, many times a nearby "expert" pipes up and offers to help in-person.)



 Respectfully,



 

 Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.     [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:13 am Post subject: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !

I got rather confused with the early reports of "30+ spherical bolts"  

and "every single spherical bolt in the system, there is about 16 per  

side I think", and didn't pay this thread too much attention,  

thinking we had a person who...pardon my straight-forward  

analysis...didn't know what he was talking about or didn't/couldn't  

explain himself, but now I'm intrigued, and would like to get to the  

bottom of the problem.

I'm also a bit nervous for this new owner AND the flight instructor  

who went up with him, if all these holes are as bad as he says they are.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying

do not archive



On Feb 10, 2009, at 11:21 AM, akflyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Lynn, I am just gonna toss a little snake oil out here....



 I am thinking (that gets me into alot of trouble) that the outer  

 hole whurlygigahelichopter is referring to would be the "fork" that  

 the bolt goes through in which the heim joint is captured.  Say the  

 flaperon mixer for instance. On the back side of the flap handle,  

 under the seat the handle has a fork in which the rod end bolts  

 through.  Whurly gig a guy is saying that the forks were reamed out  

 to big so now the bolt hole has slop in it.  The only answer to  

 that is new parts, weld build up and reaming to he proper size, or  

 is there is enough "meat" you could drill oversize for a bushing.



 snakeman.... out



 --------

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 Leonard Perry aka SNAKE

 Soldotna AK

 Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV

 582 IVO IFA

 Full Lotus 1260

 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009



 hander outer of humorless darwin awards





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 29547#229547

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:19 pm Post subject: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !

.001 brass shimstock??  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan

 Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 2:01 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !  

  

  

   

At 06:44 AM 2/10/2009, you wrote:

 

   

Some of the rod ends were able to slide back and forth on the bolt which held it in place.  This was some of the slop that I found, I put washers in to keep the rod end from slipping.

 

 There are a few locations where the bolt holding the rod end is able to wiggle a little in the outer holes.  So even if it had a nice new snug rod end there would be some play.  So what is the solution for an area like this?  



 James,

         (I hope it's James. I do wish you'd put your name, location, and aircraft type / status in your signature.) With a rod end you're expected to torque the bolt through the ball to maximum. This helps prevent any slop between the bolt and ball and between the bolt and clevis. (The outer holes.) It's particularly useful in low-load implementations like control systems. The only slop you should have should be in the rod end itself, and that should be negligible. Of course you'll have to make sure the rod end fits the clevis closely before you torque so you don't bend the clevis, but it sounds like you've already done that by adding washers. Above all, keep asking the questions. The web is a horrible medium for fixing problems but it seems like we nearly always get there eventually. (Also, if you put your location in your signature, many times a nearby "expert" pipes up and offers to help in-person.)

 

 Respectfully,

 

 

   

Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.    	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List 	
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       [quote][b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !

Guy, I updated my info for ya.  I was waiting until I was back in the States and then forgot.  



From here on out if I am going to post to this board I will make sure to be as absolutely specific about everything I mention so as not to offend anybody who wishes to not talk in laymen's terms, as this obviously degrades us all.  Furthermore, I will be sure to read and familiarize myself with all applicable manuals and publications before posting a query to assure that I use only the most accurate nomenclature since clearly anyone who refers to a rod end bearing as anything but is not intelligent enough to be a pilot.  I offer my sincerest apologies for any harm my poor selection of words and and the unprepared nature of my post may have caused.  And to anybody who feels this apology is directed at YOU . . . Get Bent!   



Float Flyer, what is shim stock?  I am imagining a little brass "top hat" shaped washer or bushing that would change the ID of a hole.  Am I close?  Where could I get something like that?



AKFlyer, thanks for clarifying for me.  Good looking out.



To those who responded off line, thanks for the in depth help.



I flew again yesterday after having tightened up as many of the rod end through bolts as possible, as well as adding washers where possible to keep the bearing from sliding on the through bolt, and there were no issues during the flight.  I still need to go flying with a GPS because I still feel that the ASI is not accurate all the time.  It is odd because it seems to be on at some times and way high at others.  I think it is indicating about 95 when I am actually doing about 75.  In any case I am keeping it below Vne indicated and will work the bugs out as I go.  Thanks for the help guys.

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !

Whurly,



Mine does the same thing.. just remember winds aloft.  You have to use the GPS and either fly in absolutely no wind or fly a grid to plot out true results.



Many times my airspeed is 95-100 with a ground speed of 40-45.  The airframe only cares what the airspeed says.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:14 pm Post subject: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !

Or the other end of the spectrum.....45 mph airspeed, 9 mph ground  

speed (GPS)     OR     110 mph airspeed, and 170 mph ground speed.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying

do not archive



On Feb 13, 2009, at 2:12 PM, akflyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Whurly,



 Mine does the same thing.. just remember winds aloft.  You have to  

 use the GPS and either fly in absolutely no wind or fly a grid to  

 plot out true results.



 Many times my airspeed is 95-100 with a ground speed of 40-45.  The  

 airframe only cares what the airspeed says.



 --------

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 Leonard Perry aka SNAKE

 Soldotna AK

 Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV

 582 IVO IFA

 Full Lotus 1260

 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009



 hander outer of humorless darwin awards

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:25 pm Post subject: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !

Shim stock is simply a small sheet of brass rolled to specific thicknesses,

usually in thousands of an inch.  It is quite malleable so you can form it

easily around loose bolts etc.  I think the thinnest shim stock you can get

is around 0.0005"



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !

My concern with the ASI is that it is not accurate at the high end and that is limiting me a bit.  On climb out it seems pretty accurate, bear with me as this is all based on "feel"; Doing slow flight, perhaps even on the back side of the power curve, rpm about 5000, jury struts indicating about 8-10 AOA, 40 mph indicated with 2 on board, she stalled the INSTANT I throttled back.  It all adds up to very accurate slow flight.  Full throttle, nice climb established, stick pulled back a little bit and feeling a little, just a little mushy.  ASI indicates 55ish so this all seems to fit.  Get up to pattern altitude and bring the throttle back to about 5500-5700, level off and the ASI quickly starts reporting 80-90mph.  It is not hard to say that it is probably a little optimistic.  Now here is my concern with it, I can easily remain within the aircraft's speed limits while cruising around if the ASI is reading high at the high end but when I hit a little lift and I am almost immediately pushing Vne I get a little concerned.  So the plan is to go out first thing in the morning, once my GPS makes it home, and try to calibrate the ASI.  I realize that DA has to be taken into account as well as winds.  I will probably fly a course and a back course and compare the difference of the errors to determine the true inaccuracy.  Here is the question, is there a way to calibrate the ASI besides simply bending the pitot so it is not as directly into the wind?  What is the RIGHT way to do this?

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:04 pm Post subject: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !

This is starting to sound like a problem with the static port.  Best to have

one static port on each side of the plane, tied together with the lines for

your altimeter, VSI and ASI teed into it.



You definitely have a problem there albeit a minor one because you are used

to the way your plane flies.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:04 pm Post subject: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !

Missed again!  



The ASI can be tested and calibrated using a Barfield tester it won't be

cheap!  Unless you know someone who has one sitting on their bench.  Even

with a properly calibrated ASI you can still have problems due to the

positioning of the pitot and the static ports.  This is nothing to be

passive about as in the past number of years at least one jetliner has

crashed because static ports were covered for painting and afterward the

tape covering the port was not removed.  Of course for guys who only foy

instruments this is a real nightmare.  For the rest of us...it becomes an

inconvenience.

Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:12 pm Post subject: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !

I meant to add..



Enjoy the flight tomorrow for all it's worth.  You only get to do a first

solo once and you will never forget it!  Just remember while you are

enjoying yourself to Fly the plane! 



One guy I knew did his first solo while living in northern Ontario.  While

flying one day his instructor put the plane down on a frozen lake and told

the guy to do three touch and goes on the lake.  Well that was good until

the guy found he had lost his instructor.  Took him about an hour to find

the guy who had walked off the ice to get out of the wind.  



Ok so he got four landings in.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Michael Logan

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 82

Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:55 am Post subject: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !

No need to pay a lot for the Barfield tester, Jim Weir showed how to make

one cheaply in Kitplanes a couple of months back. 



Mike

Series 5



--

_________________
Mike Logan
Fredericksburg, VA

jcorner(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:38 am Post subject: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !

Mikes note reminded me of a web bookmark on ASI Calibration. 

Try  http://www.iflyez.com/manometer.shtml   

Jim Corner

Model 2, 582,. Ivo med !FA, 1100 hrs

Model 5,  0-235  40 hrs

Calgary, AB

On 14-Feb-09, at 6:55 AM, Michael Logan wrote:

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