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sbuc(at)hiwaay.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:43 pm Post subject: Sample maintenance log entry

Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Not entirely true. Transponder/encoder biennial inspections also require 

 appropriate license.

You are correct, I should have been more specific. It is very common to 

have the transponder stuff done in conjunction with pitot/static checks.

Sam Buchanan

====================

 	  Quote: 	

>

> Anyone may legally do *any* work on an experimental aircraft (only 

> exception

>

> is pitot-static certs), repairman's certificate or A&P are only needed 

> for condition inspection.

>

> Sam Buchanan

jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:22 pm Post subject: Sample maintenance log entry

Yes and if you read 43.1 (b) it well tell you that it does not apply to 

aircraft issued an experimental certificate. So how do you comply with a 

reg that say it does not apply to you?

do not archive



Michael wrote:



[quote] Well, guys I just read my Operation limitations and it says “This 

 aircraft MUST be maintained in accordance with the requirements of 

 title 14, code of federal regulations, Part 43.” So much for part 43 

 not applying to me……. Does any one else have this statement in there 

 op limitations? I new my understanding came from my local FSDO when 

 the Operation Limitations were cut. Any thoughts?



 Mike



 --

g4mech(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:48 pm Post subject: Sample maintenance log entry

Well, if I get ramped you know which one will apply!!!! The more paperwork 

the more the feds like it.

---

aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:19 am Post subject: Sample maintenance log entry

Hi Mike-

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  Ok, my understanding is that once the aircraft has an airworthiness

certificate not just ANYONE can do the work. 


	


This is a common misunderstanding.  For starters, part 43 has an appendix

that specifically delineates what mx a pilot may perform and sign off. 

Beyond that, one of the avenues to earning an A&P is hands on experience. 

Obviously, work is being performed by non-rated individuals.  The key is

that the work is certified and signed off by a properly rated individual. 

Likewise, very many museum aircraft are maintained by unrated volunteers,

but their work is inspected and signed off the right folks.  It happens

every day-

 



glen matejcek

aerobubba(at)earthlink.net

mrobert569(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:03 am Post subject: Sample maintenance log entry

OK.  I have noted a couple of things here that I think need clarifiying.  AS was stated C the first part of FAR 43 states that it does not apply to experimental aircraft.  What does guide us back to parts of FAR 43 is the aircraft's operating limitations. That would be the part about the yearly condition inspection log entry where it gives you a statement to copy and then complete it with name C signature C certificate type C and number in accordance with FAR 43.11.  



 



What drives us to FAR 43.9 for logbook entries is in FAR 91 in the subpart about maintenance (sorry C but I don't have my FARs right here as I am on the road).  What drives us to FAR 91 maintenance is the (usually) first paragraph of the operating limitations that says something along the lines that the aircraft will be operating in accordance with all the operating rules of part 91.  So...unless a paragraph in part 91 (i.e 91.205) states that it does not apply to experimentals then it does apply.  That is why we have the transponder and pitot-static checks needing to be checked by a certified person/agency.  Now C if you have more current operating limitations it will bring in parts of 91.205 regarding the maintenance of any instruments that are listed in 91.205.  If also states the that "unless equipped IAW the night and/or instrument requirements of 91.205 the aircraft is restricted to day VFR".  Older sircraft may have something different.



 



As far of Michael's statement in his operating limitations about the aircraft being required to be maintained IAW the the requirements of part 43 C that possibly sounds like it may be something the local FSDO put in.  I would need to talk to Mike a little more to be sure.  But C if this is true then it can be changed.  



 



As far as major alterations/changes the Operating Limitations cover this.  If you have older ops limits then it may say tha you can not operate the aircraft after making a major change without contacting the FSDO first.  The latest versions states that you may make the major change C make a logbook entry detailing the change and place the aircraft in phase 1 for a minimum of five hours.  Then you must contact the FSDO to let them know of the change and where you propose to conduct the test flights.  The fsdo also may place more than 5 hours on you phase 1 time C but they do NOT need to look at the aircraft again nor re-certify it.



 



Now....as to ADs.  Here is the botom line.  It very clearly states in FAR 39 that ADs cover all aircraft and products C so "yes" ADs do apply to experimentals C BUT it has been determined by the FAA legal folks in Washington DC that it can not be enforced with regards to Amateur-built aircraft. So amateur-builts C even if a typed certificated engine is installed C do not have to comply with any AD.  Here is the catch though.  While the FAA won't do anything if you overfly an AD C your insurance company may not cover you in the event of an accident if you fail to comply with an AD.  Check with you agent to find out.



 



 



Last thing.  If you have older C or unclear Operating Limitations C you can apply to the local FSDO C and now C some DARs C to issue new Operating Limitations with all the latest and greatest authorizations.



 



I know this is a bit long winded but I am hoping this clarifies a few things.  If you have any specific questions feel free to drop me a line directly

g4mech(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:45 am Post subject: Sample maintenance log entry

Mike,   

   

You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my local FSDO is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local FSDO said they had no time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old tail number on them. I don’t know why the FAA doesn’t just put the serial number of the aircraft so ops limits don’t have to be changed for a simple N number change. I talked to the manager in the FSDO about why they couldn’t accommodate me?  He said they were mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to handle the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600 bucks thank you very much. I don’t want to change my 43 statement because it doesn’t affect me, I am a mechanic for a living and I don’t want to pay 600 bucks again. I am sure most people don’t realize too if you move the aircraft to a different FSDO region they want you to inform them that you are operating out of there region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation wide thing? Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the issue at hand.  

   

--

sbuc(at)hiwaay.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:05 pm Post subject: Sample maintenance log entry

Michael wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Mike, 

 

  

 

 You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my local FSDO

 is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local FSDO said they had no

 time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old tail number on them. I don't

 know why the FAA doesn't just put the serial number of the aircraft so ops

 limits don't have to be changed for a simple N number change. I talked to

 the manager in the FSDO about why they couldn't accommodate me?  He said

 they were mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to handle

 the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600 bucks thank

 you very much. I don't want to change my 43 statement because it doesn't

 affect me, I am a mechanic for a living and I don't want to pay 600 bucks

 again. I am sure most people don't realize too if you move the aircraft to a

 different FSDO region they want you to inform them that you are operating

 out of there region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation wide

 thing? Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the issue at hand.

 


	


Michael,



Your statement about the FAR 43 reference in your operating limitations 

is the first time I have ever heard of an experimental being tied to FAR 

43 maintenance protocol. This is not a national practice, and is one I 

suspect violates the template of experimental certification as 

recognized nationwide. Sounds like some overzealous FAA-types with 

limited experimental experience got their hands on your op lims.  



This is unfortunate due to the expense you would incur for changes and 

also how your paperwork would *really* hurt the resale value of your 

plane. I can't imagine someone up to speed on experimental regs wanting 

to purchase an RV-7 with your op lims. Fortunately you can legally do 

all the maintenance but rest assured your case is a rare exception.



Best regards,



Sam Buchanan

http://thervjournal.com

timb

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Frankston, Texas

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:33 pm Post subject: Sample maintenance log entry

In addition I think 600 bucks for those changes is pretty absurd.  I didn't

pay half that to get my dar to inspect my plane and issue them in the first

place.  Sounds like they need some new blood in that area.  Where are you

Michael?



Tim Bryan

RV-6 Flying

N616TB over 120 hours now



[quote] --

_________________
Tim Bryan
RV-6 Flying
N616TB

sbuc(at)hiwaay.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:55 pm Post subject: Sample maintenance log entry

Sam Buchanan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Michael wrote:

> Mike,

> 

> 

> You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my 

> local FSDO is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local

> FSDO said they had no time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old

> tail number on them. I don't know why the FAA doesn't just put the

> serial number of the aircraft so ops limits don't have to be

> changed for a simple N number change. I talked to the manager in

> the FSDO about why they couldn't accommodate me?  He said they were

> mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to handle 

> the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600

> bucks thank you very much. I don't want to change my 43 statement

> because it doesn't affect me, I am a mechanic for a living and I

> don't want to pay 600 bucks again. I am sure most people don't

> realize too if you move the aircraft to a different FSDO region

> they want you to inform them that you are operating out of there

> region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation wide thing?

> Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the issue at hand.

> 

 

 Michael,

 

 Your statement about the FAR 43 reference in your operating

 limitations is the first time I have ever heard of an experimental

 being tied to FAR 43 maintenance protocol. This is not a national

 practice, and is one I suspect violates the template of experimental

 certification as recognized nationwide. Sounds like some overzealous

 FAA-types with limited experimental experience got their hands on

 your op lims.  

 

 This is unfortunate due to the expense you would incur for changes

 and also how your paperwork would *really* hurt the resale value of

 your plane. I can't imagine someone up to speed on experimental regs

 wanting to purchase an RV-7 with your op lims. Fortunately you can

 legally do all the maintenance but rest assured your case is a rare

 exception.

 


	


To extend the thought, does the demand per your RV-7 operating 

limitations for FAR 43 maintenance mean that all replacement parts must 

meet FAA-PMA and TSO standards??? And if that is the case, to what type 

certificate are you supposed to comply?



Wow...the more I think about this thing the more my head hurts......





If this was my plane, I would get the legal standards folks of the EAA 

involved and get those op lims fixed.



Sam Buchanan

bill(at)bergner.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:34 pm Post subject: Sample maintenance log entry

The Allentown FSDO did the paperwork for me for free 2 years ago and they

were very accommodating and pleasant to work with.   I don't know if their

policy is different now.



--

mrobert569(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:40 pm Post subject: Sample maintenance log entry

It is your local FSDO being a pain.  There is absolutely no legal requirement to inform the local FSDO if you move.



 



Also C if you do not like the way you are being treated by your local FSDO you have the right to call their next higher up manager and file a complaint.  That is called invoking the customer service initiative.  Reissuing operating limitations and a new airworthiness certificate takes about 20 minutes.  If you don't want to hassle with your local FSDO you can go to another FSDO like Van Nuys or Riverside.



 



Mike R.



Das Fed

 

From: g4mech(at)sbcglobal.net

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Sample maintenance log entry

Date: Fri C 20 Feb 2009 09:41:43 -0800



Mike C 

 

You are spot on with some of your statements in my ops limits; my local FSDO is Los Angeles. I changed my tail number and the local FSDO said they had no time to re cut my ops specs which hade my old tail number on them. I don’t know why the FAA doesn’t just put the serial number of the aircraft so ops limits don’t have to be changed for a simple N number change. I talked to the manager in the FSDO about why they couldn’t accommodate me?  He said they were mandated to ignore my issue due to not enough man power to handle the case. So I had to pay a DAR to cut me new ops limits and 600 bucks thank you very much. I don’t want to change my 43 statement because it doesn’t affect me C I am a mechanic for a living and I don’t want to pay 600 bucks again. I am sure most people don’t realize too if you move the aircraft to a different FSDO region they want you to inform them that you are operating out of there region. Is this my local being a pain or is it a nation wide thing? Thank you for your knowledge and helping with the issue at hand.

 

--

mrobert569(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:42 pm Post subject: Sample maintenance log entry

The policy is up to the local FSDO managment and is supposed to be dictated by man power availability.

  

 Mike R.

 

[quote] From: bill(at)bergner.com

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Sample maintenance log entry

 Date: Fri C 20 Feb 2009 18:29:23 -0500

 

 --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill Bergner" <bill(at)bergner.com>

 

 The Allentown FSDO did the paperwork for me for free 2 years ago and they

 were very accommodating and pleasant to work with. I don't know if their

 policy is different now.

 

 --

g4mech(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:05 pm Post subject: Sample maintenance log entry

Yea I hear ya but never fear I will NEVER sell my plane to anyone.......I 

will live in it and sell my house first!!! Resale...naww I don't thing so 

because the limits can be amended really for a nominal fee if one desire so. 

If value is based on 600 dollar change..then I don't want to deal with a 

buyer like that. Cheers

---

g4mech(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:33 pm Post subject: Sample maintenance log entry

I don't see how part 43 talks about approved parts. Why would I change the 

op limits???? I am a full time aircraft mechanic, my ops limitations do not 

hinder me in anyway. If you are a non A&P and want to " save money" by 

owning an experimental then I could see ones point. My RV is just like 

anyone else's, condition inspection and logical maintenance standards.

---

g4mech(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:33 pm Post subject: Sample maintenance log entry

Thanks for the insight Mike, I knew they were just  being a pain in the ass. 

 [quote]   ---

mr.sun

Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 85

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:56 pm Post subject: Sample maintenance log entry

Dear Das Fed,

I built an RV-9 for 3 years and then bought a finished (and beautiful) RV-7, sold the -9 partially completed (on gear with canopy done, firewall forward was next).  Can I use my building and maintenance of my two RV experiences (most done with my licensed A/P helper right there with me) to go towards my own A&P license?  I do all my own work and he still signs off the annual and complements my work.  Would sure like to get my own A&P license before he retires or moves on.

Greg

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:43 AM, Mike Robertson <mrobert569(at)hotmail.com (mrobert569(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]      You are correct.  On an amateur-built aircraft ANYONE may do the maintenance, or major alteration, and sign off the logbook in accordance with the logbook entry requirements of FAR 43.9.  In addition, if it is a major alteration you must follow the procedure stated in the aircraft's operating limitations.  The repairman certificate only is needed to conduct the yearly condition inpsection and sign it off.  Again, this is stated the the aircraft's operating limitations.  If you have any specific questions drop me a line.

 Mike Robertson

 Das Fed

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 11:26:01 -0500

 From: recapen(at)earthlink.net (recapen(at)earthlink.net)

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)

 > Subject: Re: Sample maintenance log entry

 	  Quote: 	

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net (recapen(at)earthlink.net)>

 > 

[quote] I thought that the repairman's cert allowed me to do the annual and being the builder allowed me to do the maintenance.

 Time for more research....

 --

_________________
Greg RV-7

Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:12 pm Post subject: Sample maintenance log entry

You should check with your local FSDO.  

     

Bruce  

www.Glasair.org  

  

   

--

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:20 am Post subject: Sample maintenance log entry

The key is to have all of your build logs with hours detailed, add all 

those up in a spreadsheet, and ensure that the total exceeds the minimum 

4800 hours for all of your airframe and powerplant work. You need that 

and FAA form 8610-2 filled out. Use your spreadsheet as a continuation 

sheet for your experience. It also helps to have a recommendation letter 

from an A&P who is familiar with your work. You make an appt with FSDO 

maintenance inspector and he will spend an hour or more ascertaining 

your familiarity with maintenance, then sign off, approving you to take 

the tests. There are 3 writtens, and oral and practical. Contact me off 

list if you need more info.

Kelly

A&P/IA



Bruce Gray wrote:

[quote]

 You should check with your local FSDO.



 Bruce



 www.Glasair.org <http://www.Glasair.org>



 --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

bobbyhester(at)newwavecom
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:43 am Post subject: Sample maintenance log entry

I built an RV7A. I am now working at Ft. Campbell, KY on Blackhawk helicopters. When I visited my FSDO with my letter from work, It was what I needed to get my tickets, I had worked there a little over 2-1/2 yrs, which is what was required. I asked about the time I spent building my RV7A and was told that does not count at all. But I agree with the other message check with your local FSDO.

  	  Quote: 	
		  Surfing the web from Hopkinsville, KY

Visit my web site:

http://home.newwavecomm.net/bobbyhester/2009JanJulyFlying.htm

 mr.gsun(at)gmail.com (mr.gsun(at)gmail.com) wrote: [quote]Dear Das Fed,

 I built an RV-9 for 3 years and then bought a finished (and beautiful) RV-7, sold the -9 partially completed (on gear with canopy done, firewall forward was next).  Can I use my building and maintenance of my two RV experiences (most done with my licensed A/P helper right there with me) to go towards my own A&P license?  I do all my own work and he still signs off the annual and complements my work.  Would sure like to get my own A&P license before he retires or moves on.

 Greg

   On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:43 AM, Mike Robertson <mrobert569(at)hotmail.com (mrobert569(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

   [quote]     You are correct.  On an amateur-built aircraft ANYONE may do the maintenance, or major alteration, and sign off the logbook in accordance with the logbook entry requirements of FAR 43.9.  In addition, if it is a major alteration you must follow the procedure stated in the aircraft's operating limitations.  The repairman certificate only is needed to conduct the yearly condition inpsection and sign it off.  Again, this is stated the the aircraft's operating limitations.  If you have any specific questions drop me a line.

 Mike Robertson

 Das Fed

 > Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 11:26:01 -0500

 > From: recapen(at)earthlink.net (recapen(at)earthlink.net)     

 > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)

 > Subject: Re: Sample maintenance log entry

 > 

     > --> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net (recapen(at)earthlink.net)>

 > 

     > I thought that the repairman's cert allowed me to do the annual and being the builder allowed me to do the maintenance.

 > 

 > Time for more research....

 > 

 > --

mrobert569(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:24 am Post subject: Sample maintenance log entry

Greg C

 Your time spent building and maintaining your amateur-built aircraft can count towards your 18 or 30 month time requirement.  How much will have to be determined by the FAA inspector that will need to sign off your application.  I can tell you that you will need to also get a considerable amount of time working on type certificated aircraft to qualify.  And I can also tell you that very little time will be able to count towards the powerplant portion of the rating.  For that side make sure you document any time spent changing cylinders and/or anything bolted to the engine as it came from the factory (i.e. alternators and exhaust systems are airframe compnents).

 Mike Robertson

 Das Fed

  Date: Tue C 24 Feb 2009 19:53:45 -0800

Subject: Re: Sample maintenance log entry

From: mr.gsun(at)gmail.com

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Dear Das Fed C

I built an RV-9 for 3 years and then bought a finished (and beautiful) RV-7 C sold the -9 partially completed (on gear with canopy done C firewall forward was next).  Can I use my building and maintenance of my two RV experiences (most done with my licensed A/P helper right there with me) to go towards my own A&P license?  I do all my own work and he still signs off the annual and complements my work.  Would sure like to get my own A&P license before he retires or moves on.

Greg

 On Tue C Feb 17 C 2009 at 8:43 AM C Mike Robertson <mrobert569(at)hotmail.com (mrobert569(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote] You are correct.  On an amateur-built aircraft ANYONE may do the maintenance C or major alteration C and sign off the logbook in accordance with the logbook entry requirements of FAR 43.9.  In addition C if it is a major alteration you must follow the procedure stated in the aircraft's operating limitations.  The repairman certificate only is needed to conduct the yearly condition inpsection and sign it off.  Again C this is stated the the aircraft's operating limitations.  If you have any specific questions drop me a line.

Mike Robertson

Das Fed

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Tue C 17 Feb 2009 11:26:01 -0500

 From: recapen(at)earthlink.net (recapen(at)earthlink.net) 

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Sample maintenance log entry

 > --> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net (recapen(at)earthlink.net)>

 	  Quote: 	

 > I thought that the repairman's cert allowed me to do the annual and being the builder allowed me to do the maintenance.

[quote] 

 Time for more research....

 --

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