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kearney
Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563
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 Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:12 pm Post subject: door |
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Hmmm
Oaky, I’ll take the bait. How does the latch handle come free in flight?
As far as the aftermarket blocks are concerned, how far the door pins extend is up to the builder. I have set mine so that the tip of the rods extend about ¼ - ½” through the door frames. I don’t think my door frame paint is worth the risk of only having the pins go into the aluminum block.
Cheers
Les
#40643 – living in f/g hell
PS: Does anyone have a strap arrangement that they like – one that will allow the door to be secured in the event that the latching mechanism fails? Inquiring minds need to know….
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: September-28-09 8:00 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: door
N416EC had the reed switches installed as well and it took no more than10 degrees of motion before the light came on. The problem is that in less than 10 degrees, unless your hand is firmly gripping the door handle, it can (and will) come open due to the pressures acting upon it. Just checking that the lights are off and the handle in the locked position, IMHO, is not enough. No offense, but having flown over a year with no mishap is not an indication of a safe system, but rather possibly a cause to get careless. I would not consider a latching mechanism that does not have a good length of rod passing through (not just nesting into) a structural metal part, as I understand is a feature of one of the aftermarket options. I want as much rod through a solid base as possible, in case the handle latch does decide to break lose in flight (It can happen. Ask me how I know!). A strap, as I have mentioned before, is the easiest way I can imagine to safety the door. It also allows for some air conditioning during taxi without needing a hand on the handle.
Do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
352-427-0285
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 28, 2009, at 8:29 PM, ricksked(at)embarqmail.com (ricksked(at)embarqmail.com) wrote:
[quote]
Mine do the same, when the reed switches were rigged special care was taken to make the light indicators very sensitive. If you rotate my door handles towards the open position the lights come on with about 10 degrees of motion...well in advance of the over center position...Another reminder is when flying alone double check the passenger door...assuming it is locked and secure could be a big risk...Question... I have door key locks....what do most of you do when flying solo? Lock the doors or just close the handle.
Rick Sked
N246RS
Looking forward to LOE
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
From: Miller John
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:07:04 -0500
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Re: door
Guys,
On my doors,= when the stock Van's handle locks down, both locking pins go THROUGH the= phenolic guides and are firmly through metal frame. The phenolic bl= ocks are not designed to hold the door close, merely to guide the locking= pin through the metal!
I have warning lights on= the aft pins - if the pin does not go through the metal hole, the light= does not get turned off.
And part of the before= takeoff checklist is to ensure that the handle is locked into position an= d that you cannot push out on the door.
You must= make this check a slow, methodical check every takeoff and not trust your= seat-mate to do it correctly.
grumpy
N= 184JM
On Sep 28, 2009, at 5:21 PM,= Les Kearney wrote:
T= hese door departures are really quite troublesome. It would be interesting= to now the following about each of the incidents to date.
When did= the door departure occur (i.e. on takeoff, during climb out, cruise etc)?=
· What kind of door= blocks were being used (Van=92s nylon, Rivethead, IflyRV10 etc)?
· &= nbsp;
The 41= 6EC incident seems to indicate that the nylon blocks are definitely not&nbs= p;the way to go when installing doors.
Anyway, in my not so humble opinion,= an improperly unlatched door should not result in a near death experience= in a light single.
<= /div>
Danny Riggs
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 12:21 PM
To: =rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: RV10-List:= door[url=3D][/url][url=3D][/url]
[url=3D][/url]
IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 78MU &nbs= p; Make/Model: EXP &n= bsp; Description: RV-10
Date: 09/26/2009 = Time: 1827
Event Type: Incident Highest Injury:= None Mid Air: N Missing: N
&= nbsp; Damage: Minor
LOCATION
City:
INCIDENT, JEFFERSON CITY<= /st1:city>, MO
INJURY DATA &nbs= p; Total Fatal: 0
= ; # Crew= : 1 Fat: 0 &nbs= p; Ser: 0 Min: 0&nbs= p; Unk:
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail=AE.= [url=3D][/url][url=3D][/url]http://forums.matronics.com">[url=3D][/url][url=3D][/url]http://w= ww.matronics.com/c [quote] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D yle=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com= /Navigator?RV10-List =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D e; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com/contri= bution =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=href="3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"">http://www.matronics3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=href="3D"http://forums.matronics.com"">http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=href="3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"">http://www.matronics.com/contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D yle=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com= /Navigator?RV10-List =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D e; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com/contri= bution =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=href="3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"">http://www.matronics3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=href="3D"http://forums.matronics.com"">http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=href="3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"">http://www.matronics.com/contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D |
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6 | Quote: | | =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D yle=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com= /Navigator?RV10-List =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D e; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com/contri= bution =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=href="3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"">http://www.matronics3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=href="3D"http://forums.matronics.com"">http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=href="3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"">http://www.matronics.com/contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D |
7 | Quote: | | =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D yle=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com= /Navigator?RV10-List =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D e; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com/contri= bution =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=href="3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"">http://www.matronics3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=href="3D"http://forums.matronics.com"">http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=href="3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"">http://www.matronics.com/contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D |
8 | Quote: | | =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D yle=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com= /Navigator?RV10-List =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D e; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com/contri= bution =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=href="3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"">http://www.matronics3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=href="3D"http://forums.matronics.com"">http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=href="3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"">http://www.matronics.com/contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D |
90
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dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
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| Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:12 pm Post subject: door |
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I agree with Jesse. The pin has to be fully supported by solid structure.
There are several problems with building the mechanism per the plans. On my doors, I originally rigged the pins to retract as described, I guess to keep from possibly whacking the door jamb with the pin. The problem there is that you pay for the retraction with less engagement. So when I re-rigged the pins I found I could let the pins poke out a bit more when open, and get that much more engagement.
Another thing is that the distance from the support block on the door to the fuselage structure is too great. By the time the pin full extends to reach the fuse, it has a pretty good moment on it so that it takes less force from the door to pull the pin out of the hole. In other words, the pin has a lot of overhang so it can flex easier than if it protruded less. The aftermarket blocks like ours help to address that by "thickening" the fuselage frame and shortening the span so the pin doesn't have to reach as far to engage. It seems to me that instead of being in pure shear, the door pins see a bending force too that tends to pull them out of the holes.
Last thing for now is that the rubber door seal can mask a lot of "feel" for how the door is engaging. With the foam seals that I'm using, there's no question that the door is sitting in the right position before it's latched. It just falls into place.
OK, last last thing, like Grumpy and others said, your checklist HAS to have a physical check by pushing on the doors, especially the aft edge, before takeoff.
Dave Saylor--just passed 500 hours
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 6:59 PM, Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | N416EC had the reed switches installed as well and it took no more than10 degrees of motion before the light came on. The problem is that in less than 10 degrees, unless your hand is firmly gripping the door handle, it can (and will) come open due to the pressures acting upon it. Just checking that the lights are off and the handle in the locked position, IMHO, is not enough. No offense, but having flown over a year with no mishap is not an indication of a safe system, but rather possibly a cause to get careless. I would not consider a latching mechanism that does not have a good length of rod passing through (not just nesting into) a structural metal part, as I understand is a feature of one of the aftermarket options. I want as much rod through a solid base as possible, in case the handle latch does decide to break lose in flight (It can happen. Ask me how I know!). A strap, as I have mentioned before, is the easiest way I can imagine to safety the door. It also allows for some air conditioning during taxi without needing a hand on the handle.
Do not archive
Jesse SaintSaint Aviation
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
352-427-0285
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 28, 2009, at 8:29 PM, ricksked(at)embarqmail.com (ricksked(at)embarqmail.com) wrote:
| Quote: | Mine do the same, when the reed switches were rigged special care was taken to make the light indicators very sensitive. If you rotate my door handles towards the open position the lights come on with about 10 degrees of motion...well in advance of the over center position...Another reminder is when flying alone double check the passenger door...assuming it is locked and secure could be a big risk...Question... I have door key locks....what do most of you do when flying solo? Lock the doors or just close the handle.
Rick Sked
N246RS
Looking forward to LOE
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
From: Miller John
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:07:04 -0500
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Re: door
Guys,
On my doors,= when the stock Van's handle locks down, both locking pins go THROUGH the= phenolic guides and are firmly through metal frame. The phenolic bl= ocks are not designed to hold the door close, merely to guide the locking= pin through the metal!
I have warning lights on= the aft pins - if the pin does not go through the metal hole, the light= does not get turned off.
And part of the before= takeoff checklist is to ensure that the handle is locked into position an= d that you cannot push out on the door.
You must= make this check a slow, methodical check every takeoff and not trust your= seat-mate to do it correctly.
grumpy
N= 184JM
On Sep 28, 2009, at 5:21 PM,= Les Kearney wrote:
Hi
<= o:p>
T= hese door departures are really quite troublesome. It would be interesting= to now the following about each of the incidents to date.
- When did= the door departure occur (i.e. on takeoff, during climb out, cruise etc)?=
- Was the Van door warning installed
- What kind of door= blocks were being used (Van=92s nylon, Rivethead, IflyRV10 etc)?
- &= nbsp;
The 41= 6EC incident seems to indicate that the nylon blocks are definitely not&nbs= p;the way to go when installing doors. Anyway, in my not so humble opinion,= an improperly unlatched door should not result in a near death experience= in a light single.
Cheers
Les
#40643 =96 living in f/g hell.
<= div><= /font>
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)ma= mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)= ] On Behalf Of <= /span>David McNeill
S= ent: Septembe= r-28-09 3:03 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: FW: door
<= /div>
I believe yo= u may be referring to 416EC; I think the number has now been changed and= the aircraft sold. I don't rely on a system. I close the doors and check= the pins both fore and aft, both sides, when we load and before takeoff.<= /span>
=
Fr= om: owner-rv10-li= st-server(at)matronics.com (st-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matro= nics.com] On Behalf Of Danny Riggs
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 12:21 PM
To: =rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: RV10-List:= door That kinda sucks! I've been working= on the door latches over the weekend and thinking about the last time I= saw this happen. The landing was real firm and the front end was twisted= up to the firewall.[img][/img]
From: dlm46007(at)cox.net (dlm46007(at)cox.net)
To: rv10= -list(at)matronics.com (-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: door
Da= te: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:30:43 -0700
IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 78MU &nbs= p; Make/Model: EXP &n= bsp; Description: RV-10
Date: 09/26/2009 = Time: 1827
Event Type: Incident Highest Injury:= None Mid Air: N Missing: N
&= nbsp; Damage: Minor
LOCATION
City: J= EFFERSON CITY State: MO Cou= ntry: US
DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT ON TAKEOFF, PASSENGER DOOR= SEPARATED FROM AIRCRAFT, LANDED WITHOUT
INCIDENT, JEFFERSON CITY<= /st1:city>, MO
INJURY DATA &nbs= p; Total Fatal: 0
= ; # Crew= : 1 Fat: 0 &nbs= p; Ser: 0 Min: 0&nbs= p; Unk:
&n= bsp; # Pass: 1 = Fat: 0 Ser: &n= bsp; 0 Min: 0 = Unk: =
&nbs= p; # Grnd: &nbs= p; Fat: 0 Ser: 0&nbs= p; Min: 0 Unk: =
WEA= THER: SCT029 BKN045 260/08G15 10SM A2995
| Quote: | | <= o:p> ttp://www.matronics.= com/Navigator?RV10-List |
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail=AE.= See how.
href=3D"http://w= ww.matronics.com/c[/b]0[/b]12 3 456 7=8 9 | Quote: | | ttp://www.matronics.= com/Navigator?RV10-List |
0 |
= | Quote: | | ttp://www.matronics.= com/Navigator?RV10-List |
1
=
=3D | Quote: | | ttp://www.matronics.= com/Navigator?RV10-List |
2
ttp://www.matronics.= com/Navigator?RV10-List |
3
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| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:17 pm Post subject: door |
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concur. The entire circumference of the pin must extend through the metal door frame or other metal. In my case we made new pins from the same material as supplied by Vans. One can make the pins extra long , install them with the doors on the aircraft. Then using a cutoff wheel and sanding disk, one can trim back the pins until the retracted pins just clear the frame; the extended pins will be inserted more than sufficiently into the metal door frames. The standard length pins do not work unless you locate the door mechanism exactly where Vans intended. Given the epoxy process to glue the door halves together and the trimming process , the mechanism can vary enough to make the Vans supplied pins insufficient in length. From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 7:00 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: door
N416EC had the reed switches installed as well and it took no more than10 degrees of motion before the light came on. The problem is that in less than 10 degrees, unless your hand is firmly gripping the door handle, it can (and will) come open due to the pressures acting upon it. Just checking that the lights are off and the handle in the locked position, IMHO, is not enough. No offense, but having flown over a year with no mishap is not an indication of a safe system, but rather possibly a cause to get careless. I would not consider a latching mechanism that does not have a good length of rod passing through (not just nesting into) a structural metal part, as I understand is a feature of one of the aftermarket options. I want as much rod through a solid base as possible, in case the handle latch does decide to break lose in flight (It can happen. Ask me how I know!). A strap, as I have mentioned before, is the easiest way I can imagine to safety the door. It also allows for some air conditioning during taxi without needing a hand on the handle.
Do not archive
Jesse Saint Saint Aviation
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
352-427-0285
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 28, 2009, at 8:29 PM, ricksked(at)embarqmail.com (ricksked(at)embarqmail.com) wrote:
| Quote: | Mine do the same, when the reed switches were rigged special care was taken to make the light indicators very sensitive. If you rotate my door handles towards the open position the lights come on with about 10 degrees of motion...well in advance of the over center position...Another reminder is when flying alone double check the passenger door...assuming it is locked and secure could be a big risk...Question... I have door key locks....what do most of you do when flying solo? Lock the doors or just close the handle.
Rick Sked
N246RS
Looking forward to LOE
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
From: Miller John
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:07:04 -0500
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Re: door
Guys,
On my doors,= when the stock Van's handle locks down, both locking pins go THROUGH the= phenolic guides and are firmly through metal frame. The phenolic bl= ocks are not designed to hold the door close, merely to guide the locking= pin through the metal!
I have warning lights on= the aft pins - if the pin does not go through the metal hole, the light= does not get turned off.
And part of the before= takeoff checklist is to ensure that the handle is locked into position an= d that you cannot push out on the door.
You must= make this check a slow, methodical check every takeoff and not trust your= seat-mate to do it correctly.
grumpy
N= 184JM
On Sep 28, 2009, at 5:21 PM,= Les Kearney wrote:
Hi
<= o:p>
T= hese door departures are really quite troublesome. It would be interesting= to now the following about each of the incidents to date.
- When did= the door departure occur (i.e. on takeoff, during climb out, cruise etc)?=
- Was the Van door warning installed
- What kind of door= blocks were being used (Van=92s nylon, Rivethead, IflyRV10 etc)?
- Were any other =93secondary=94 latches / straps etc being used?
&= nbsp;[/list]
The 41= 6EC incident seems to indicate that the nylon blocks are definitely not&nbs= p;the way to go when installing doors. Anyway, in my not so humble opinion,= an improperly unlatched door should not result in a near death experience= in a light single.
Cheers
Les
#40643 =96 living in f/g hell.
<= div> <= /font>
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)ma= tronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [[url=mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)[/url]= ] On Behalf Of <= /span>David McNeill
S= ent: Septembe= r-28-09 3:03 PM
To: [url=mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com]rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)[/url]
Subject: FW: door
<= /div>
I believe yo= u may be referring to 416EC; I think the number has now been changed and= the aircraft sold. I don't rely on a system. I close the doors and check= the pins both fore and aft, both sides, when we load and before takeoff.<= /span>
=
Fr= om: owner-rv10-li= [url=mailto:st-server(at)matronics.com]st-server(at)matronics.com ([email]owner-rv10-list-server(at)matron=\' underline;=[/email])[/url] [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matro= nics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Danny Riggs
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 12:21 PM
To: =[url=mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com]rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)[/url]
Subject: RE: RV10-List:= door (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) That kinda sucks! I've been working= on the door latches over the weekend and thinking about the last time I= saw this happen. The landing was real firm and the front end was twisted= up to the firewall.
From: (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)[url=mailto:dlm46007(at)cox.net]dlm46007(at)cox.net (dlm46007(at)cox.net)[/url]
To: rv10= [url=mailto:-list(at)matronics.com]-list(at)matronics.com ([email]rv10-li=\' underline;=[/email])[/url]
Subject: door
Da= te: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:30:43 -0700
IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 78MU &nbs= p; Make/Model: EXP &n= bsp; Description: RV-10
Date: 09/26/2009 = Time: 1827
Event Type: Incident Highest Injury:= None Mid Air: N Missing: N
&= nbsp; Damage: Minor
LOCATION
City: J= EFFERSON CITY State: MO Cou= ntry: US
DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT ON TAKEOFF, PASSENGER DOOR= SEPARATED FROM AIRCRAFT, LANDED WITHOUT
INCIDENT, JEFFERSON CITY<= /st1:city>, MO
INJURY DATA &nbs= p; Total Fatal: 0
= ; # Crew= : 1 Fat: 0 &nbs= p; Ser: 0 Min: 0&nbs= p; Unk:
&n= bsp; # Pass: 1 = Fat: 0 Ser: &n= bsp; 0 Min: 0 = Unk: =
&nbs= p; # Grnd: &nbs= p; Fat: 0 Ser: 0&nbs= p; Min: 0 Unk: =
WEA= THER: SCT029 BKN045 260/08G15 10SM A2995
| Quote: | | <= o:p> ttp://[url=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV1=\' underline;=]www.matronics.= com/Navigator?RV10-List[/url] |
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Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail=AE.= [url=http://windo=\' target=\'3D]See how.[/url]
| Quote: | | [b] href=3D"[url=http://www.matroni=\' text-decoration:=]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List[/url]">[url=http=\' :=]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List[/url]<= /o:p>h= ref=3D"http://forums.matronics.com">[url=ht=\' text-decoration:=]http://forums.matronics.com[/url] |
href=3D"[url=http://www.matro=\' underline;=]http://www.matronics.com/contribution[/url]" text-decoration:="" blue;="" >="" contribution?="" nics.com="">[url=http://www.mat=\' underline;=]http://w=[/url] ww.matronics.com/c[/b]0[/b]1234567=89 | Quote: | | ttp://[url=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV1=\' underline;=]www.matronics.= com/Navigator?RV10-List[/url] |
0[/quote]
= | Quote: | | ttp://[url=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV1=\' underline;=]www.matronics.= com/Navigator?RV10-List[/url] |
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2
ttp://[url=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV1=\' underline;=]www.matronics.= com/Navigator?RV10-List[/url][/quote]3 [quote][b]
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Lew Gallagher
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:37 am Post subject: Re: door |
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Hey Jesse,
The door rods/seats issue has been addressed many times, but your comment about the handle latch made me decide to list the following:
Our -10 is not flying yet, but in the many off/on 's during fitting the doors, I noticed that a couple of times that the safety wire holding the pins that hold the rods to the latch mechanism (whew, what a sentence!) get buggered and come off if not twisted and positioned just right. I've thought, "Wow, the whole door integrity is dependent on this delicate little wire -- how scary is that!"
Thoughts? By the way, is it not possible to edit out all the quotes when responding by iphone?
Later, - Lew
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non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Fly off completed ! |
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:18 am Post subject: door |
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It is possible to tap the hole on the pushrod for a stainless #4 or 6? Screw
and then threadlock in place. Another option is a clevis pin with cotter key
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dmaib(at)mac.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:11 am Post subject: door |
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I used clevis pins and cotter keys. I am pretty sure that this is the
method called out in the plans. I will take a look next time I am at
the airport.
David Maib
40559
Flying
On Sep 29, 2009, at 9:14 AM, David McNeill wrote:
It is possible to tap the hole on the pushrod for a stainless #4 or
6? Screw
and then threadlock in place. Another option is a clevis pin with
cotter key
--
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partner14
Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Granbury Texas
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:39 am Post subject: door |
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It's simple.... #1 you throw away the Van's plastic/nylon crap, and install the aftermarket aluminum pin and receiver. #2 Check for proper door closure EVERY Time before taxi and prior to takeoff!!!!!
Don McDonald
--- On Mon, 9/28/09, Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com>
Subject: Re: door
To: "rv10-list(at)matronics.com" <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Monday, September 28, 2009, 6:59 PM
N416EC had the reed switches installed as well and it took no more than10 degrees of motion before the light came on. The problem is that in less than 10 degrees, unless your hand is firmly gripping the door handle, it can (and will) come open due to the pressures acting upon it. Just checking that the lights are off and the handle in the locked position, IMHO, is not enough. No offense, but having flown over a year with no mishap is not an indication of a safe system, but rather possibly a cause to get careless. I would not consider a latching mechanism that does not have a good length of rod passing through (not just nesting into) a structural metal part, as I understand is a feature of one of the aftermarket options. I want as much rod through a solid base as possible, in case the handle latch does decide to break lose in flight (It can happen. Ask me how I know!). A strap, as I have mentioned before, is the easiest way I can imagine to safety the door. It also allows for some air conditioning during taxi without needing a hand on the handle.
Do not archive
Jesse Saint Saint Aviation
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
352-427-0285
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 28, 2009, at 8:29 PM, ricksked(at)embarqmail.com (ricksked(at)embarqmail.com) wrote:
| Quote: | Mine do the same, when the reed switches were rigged special care was taken to make the light indicators very sensitive. If you rotate my door handles towards the open position the lights come on with about 10 degrees of motion...well in advance of the over center position...Another reminder is when flying alone double check the passenger door...assuming it is locked and secure could be a big risk...Question... I have door key locks....what do most of you do when flying solo? Lock the doors or just close the handle.
Rick Sked
N246RS
Looking forward to LOE Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
From: Miller John
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:07:04 -0500
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Re: door
Guys,
On my doors,= when the stock Van's handle locks down, both locking pins go THROUGH the= phenolic guides and are firmly through metal frame. The phenolic bl= ocks are not designed to hold the door close, merely to guide the locking= pin through the metal!
I have warning lights on= the aft pins - if the pin does not go through the metal hole, the light= does not get turned off.
And part of the before= takeoff checklist is to ensure that the handle is locked into position an= d that you cannot push out on the door.
You must= make this check a slow, methodical check every takeoff and not trust your= seat-mate to do it correctly.
grumpy
N= 184JM
On Sep 28, 2009, at 5:21 PM,= Les Kearney wrote:
Hi
<= o:p>
T= hese door departures are really quite troublesome. It would be interesting= to now the following about each of the incidents to date.
- When did= the door departure occur (i.e. on takeoff, during climb out, cruise etc)?=
- Was the Van door warning installed
- What kind of door= blocks were being used (Van=92s nylon, Rivethead, IflyRV10 etc)?
- &= nbsp;
The 41= 6EC incident seems to indicate that the nylon blocks are definitely not&nbs= p;the way to go when installing doors. Anyway, in my not so humble opinion,= an improperly unlatched door should not result in a near death experience= in a light single.
Cheers
Les
#40643 =96 living in f/g hell.
<= div> <= /font>
From: mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)= ] On Behalf Of <= /span>David McNeill
S= ent: Septembe= r-28-09 3:03 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: FW: door
<= /div>
I believe yo= u may be referring to 416EC; I think the number has now been changed and= the aircraft sold. I don't rely on a system. I close the doors and check= the pins both fore and aft, both sides, when we load and before takeoff.<= /span>
=
Fr= om: st-server(at)matronics.com (st-server(at)matronics.com) [nics.com] On Behalf Of Danny Riggs
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 12:21 PM
To: =rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: RV10-List:= door
That kinda sucks! I've been working= on the door latches over the weekend and thinking about the last time I= saw this happen. The landing was real firm and the front end was twisted= up to the firewall.
dlm46007(at)cox.net (dlm46007(at)cox.net)
To: -list(at)matronics.com (-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: door
Da= te: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:30:43 -0700
IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 78MU &nbs= p; Make/Model: EXP &n= bsp; Description: RV-10
Date: 09/26/2009 = Time: 1827
Event Type: Incident Highest Injury:= None Mid Air: N Missing: N
&= nbsp; Damage: Minor
LOCATION
City: J= EFFERSON CITY State: MO Cou= ntry: US
DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT ON TAKEOFF, PASSENGER DOOR= SEPARATED FROM AIRCRAFT, LANDED WITHOUT
INCIDENT, JEFFERSON CITY<= /st1:city>, MO
INJURY DATA &nbs= p; Total Fatal: 0
= ; # Crew= : 1 Fat: 0 &nbs= p; Ser: 0 Min: 0&nbs= p; Unk:
&n= bsp; # Pass: 1 = Fat: 0 Ser: &n= bsp; 0 Min: 0 = Unk: =
&nbs= p; # Grnd: &nbs= p; Fat: 0 Ser: 0&nbs= p; Min: 0 Unk: =
WEA= THER: SCT029 BKN045 260/08G15 10SM A2995
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail=AE.= See how.
href=3D"http://w= ww.matronics.com/c[/b]0[/b]1234567=89 | Quote: | | ttp://www.matronics.= com/Navigator?RV10-List |
0 |
= | Quote: | | ttp://www.matronics.= com/Navigator?RV10-List |
1
=
=3D | Quote: | | ttp://www.matronics.= com/Navigator?RV10-List |
2
ttp://www.matronics.= com/Navigator?RV10-List |
3
[/quote]
[quote][b]
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Don A. McDonald
40636 |
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planesmith(at)hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:05 am Post subject: door |
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David C
Where did you get the new material for your extended door pins? I used the Rivethead guides but didn't extend the pins through the fuselage structure and the more I think about it I would like to redo this.
Thanks C
Vern Smith (#40324)
From: dlm46007(at)cox.net
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: door
Date: Mon C 28 Sep 2009 20:14:47 -0700
concur. The entire circumference of the pin must extend through the metal door frame or other metal. In my case we made new pins from the same material as supplied by Vans. One can make the pins extra long C install them with the doors on the aircraft. Then using a cutoff wheel and sanding disk C one can trim back the pins until the retracted pins just clear the frame; the extended pins will be inserted more than sufficiently into the metal door frames. The standard length pins do not work unless you locate the door mechanism exactly where Vans intended. Given the epoxy process to glue the door halves together and the trimming process C the mechanism can vary enough to make the Vans supplied pins insufficient in length.
Bing™ brings you maps C menus C and reviews organized in one place. Try it now. [quote][b]
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:36 am Post subject: door |
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It is standard aluminum 6061T6 tubing; I believe the OD was 7/16" and the ID 3/8"; 1/16" walls. Measure it to be sure. comes in 6 ft lengths from aircraft spruce or ?. slots can be cut using a dril press and band saw.
Another thing I bought from McMaster Carr is additional Stainless/ Steel pins for the cowl pins. I sharpened the point on one end and placed a couple underneath the baggage area carpeting fore to aft and they extend to the right side of the rear seat. This provides , if a builder uses the cowl pins, backup pins while away from home in case the aircraft is serviced and a cowl pin is bent.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Smith
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 8:04 AM
To: RV 10 list
Subject: RE: door
David,
Where did you get the new material for your extended door pins? I used the Rivethead guides but didn't extend the pins through the fuselage structure and the more I think about it I would like to redo this.
Thanks,
Vern Smith (#40324)
From: dlm46007(at)cox.net
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: door
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:14:47 -0700
concur. The entire circumference of the pin must extend through the metal door frame or other metal. In my case we made new pins from the same material as supplied by Vans. One can make the pins extra long , install them with the doors on the aircraft. Then using a cutoff wheel and sanding disk, one can trim back the pins until the retracted pins just clear the frame; the extended pins will be inserted more than sufficiently into the metal door frames. The standard length pins do not work unless you locate the door mechanism exactly where Vans intended. Given the epoxy process to glue the door halves together and the trimming process , the mechanism can vary enough to make the Vans supplied pins insufficient in length.
Bing™ brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now. [quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
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jchang10
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 227
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:49 am Post subject: door |
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I'll add my 2c to add to this discussion.
After installing my rivethead aero door guides, I realized that my door
pins did not retract enough into the door when latch is open. They stuck
out just enough, less than a 1/4", where they would not clear the guides
to let me close the door. However, I could twist the door slightly and
they would clear the guide. In the locked position, the aluminum door
pin just barely, 1/8" maybe, extends beyond the metal door frame for a
positive engagement. The Al door pins were cut right where the taper began.
Thus, I could shorten the Al door pin but that means I lose the 1/8"
engagement past the door frame.
Then I thought, what I really want is just a longer ratchet travel. IE,
from locked to fully open, I just want that travel to be a bit longer.
That means ordering new CRACK's - the sliding metal with teeth. For
whatever reason, just 1 of them costs $75 from Vans. I need 2 for L and
R doors, so that means $150 for a few inches of metal.
Thus, if I had to do over again, I would cut those CRACK's longer than
plans. You could always drill a hole anywhere along its length to put an
arbitrary stop at any point to make them shorter. What you cannot do is
make them longer again, unless you pay $150 for it.
Jae
40533
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#40533 RV-10
First flight 10/19/2011
Phase 1 Done 11/26/2011 |
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kearney
Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:13 am Post subject: door |
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Jae
There is another solution, if I understand your problem, which is much
simpler & cheaper.
I had a problem in that after I mounted the nylon door blocks on the door
and then glassed them in, there was interference between the Rivet head
blocks & the door pins / nylon blocks on the door. I simply notched out the
fibreglass door frame so the Rivethead blocks now mount directly on the
aluminum frame (and not on the fibreglass)
Problem solved & I still have pins that extend into the door frame.
The advantage of this solution is that the gap between the Rivethead blocks
and the nylon door blocks is quite small so it a) helps ensure good door
alignment in the opening and b) minimizes the unsupported gap for the door
pin between the frame and the door blocks.
Cheers
Les
#40643 - still living in f/g hell
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bwestfall
Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 131
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:22 am Post subject: door |
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Several ways to skin a cat here. Instead of cutting out the fiberglass I
sliced about a 1/4" off the back of the rivethead block on the bandsaw. I
then used the 1/4" thick piece in place of the front rivethead door block.
This allowed me to leave the front door pin much longer.
For the back door pin I sized that so it just clears the rivethead door
block. This gives me a fairly decent amount of the door pin through the
aluminum framing. I don't recall the exact depth it extends. I'll have to
look at it next time I install the doors (they aren't on the fuse at this
time).
I think I'll take a second look at it though at a later date and see if I
can get the rear pins to extend farther through the aluminum. I recall it
being 1/2" or so. That might be a bit slim if the door bows in flight very
much.
-Ben Westfall
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kearney
Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:54 am Post subject: door |
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Hi Ben
I considered the approach you suggested but decided against it for a couple
of reasons. First, Cutting 1/4" off *neatly* would be difficult, at least
for me. Most importantly though is that it would mean reducing the depth
that the rear attach bolts on the Rivethead blocks "grab". I believe that
Steve Deniri's blocks screw in from the front so this wouldn't be a concern
for his blocks.
With notching, it is always easy to repair a mistake with a little flox and
epoxy. It is not so easy to fix poorly cut aluminum.
Cheers
Les
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jchang10
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 227
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:22 pm Post subject: door |
|
|
Hi Les,
Yes, I kept the door guide unmodified and instead shaved the fiberglass
down a bit, too. I didn't shave all the fiberglass out down to the
metal, though, because the fit seemed to work well this way for me. The
delrin blocks on the doors are forced into alignment by the rivethead
blocks when closing. I only shaved enough to create a flat spot for the
rivethead guide to sit on since the back of the rivethead guides are flat.
However, even still, the aluminum door tube was still too long for me. I
think the difference may be that, at the time, I was shooting for having
the aluminum tube extend thu the metal frame, goal #1. IE, if you
removed the rivethead pins, the aluminum tube still extended behind the
metal frame. That was the easy part. The problem was that the TUBE and
PIN would not fully recess into the delrin block on the door, goal #2.
To have goal #1 and goal #2 both, i think requires the longer latch travel.
I know plenty of people who only have the PINS go extend past the metal
door frame, which is probably what i'll end up doing too. I know a
builder who has expoxied his door pins in, which is probably a good idea
too.
I hope that explains it better. For most people, i think you can ignore
everything I have said. I just mentioned it in case someone decides to
shoot for the same goals mentioned above.
Jae
40533
Les Kearney wrote:
| Quote: |
Jae
There is another solution, if I understand your problem, which is much
simpler & cheaper.
I had a problem in that after I mounted the nylon door blocks on the door
and then glassed them in, there was interference between the Rivet head
blocks & the door pins / nylon blocks on the door. I simply notched out the
fibreglass door frame so the Rivethead blocks now mount directly on the
aluminum frame (and not on the fibreglass)
Problem solved & I still have pins that extend into the door frame.
The advantage of this solution is that the gap between the Rivethead blocks
and the nylon door blocks is quite small so it a) helps ensure good door
alignment in the opening and b) minimizes the unsupported gap for the door
pin between the frame and the door blocks.
Cheers
Les
#40643 - still living in f/g hell
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#40533 RV-10
First flight 10/19/2011
Phase 1 Done 11/26/2011 |
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partner14
Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Granbury Texas
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:42 pm Post subject: door |
|
|
IMHO, if you are using the aluminum guide set, why would it be necessary for the pin to protrude into the metal part of the door frame. Certainly the aluminum billet receiver isn't going to give up. Nor are the 2 bolts holding it in place.... that only leaves the original Van's tubing and the aluminum pin.... if those go, it won't matter if it's through the metal door frame or not, you're screwed. Am I missing something here. Why would anyone leave that original Van's setup on their plane. I installed it, and after a few months through the building process, the alum tubing had gorged/cut the receiver to death. I knew that either I was going to make something else, or someone else would. This time, someone else did.
Don McDonald
--- On Tue, 9/29/09, Jae Chang <jc-matronics_rv10(at)jline.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Jae Chang <jc-matronics_rv10(at)jline.com>
Subject: Re: door
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, September 29, 2009, 9:47 AM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Jae Chang <jc-matronics_rv10(at)jline.com (jc-matronics_rv10(at)jline.com)>
I'll add my 2c to add to this discussion.
After installing my rivethead aero door guides, I realized that my door pins did not retract enough into the door when latch is open. They stuck out just enough, less than a 1/4", where they would not clear the guides to let me close the door. However, I could twist the door slightly and they would clear the guide. In the locked position, the aluminum door pin just barely, 1/8" maybe, extends beyond the metal door frame for a positive engagement. The Al door pins were cut right where the taper began.
Thus, I could shorten the Al door pin but that means I lose the 1/8" engagement past the door frame.
Then I thought, what I really want is just a longer ratchet travel. IE, from locked to fully open, I just want that travel to be a bit longer. That means ordering new CRACK's - the sliding metal with teeth. For whatever reason, just 1 of them costs $75 from Vans. I need 2 for L and R doors, so that means $150 for a few inches of metal.
Thus, if I had to do over again, I would cut those CRACK's longer than plans. You could always drill a hole anywhere along its length to put an arbitrary stop at any point to make them shorter. What you cannot do is make them longehotoshare, and much much onics.com/Navigator?RV10-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Nav - MATRONICS WEB -Matt Dralle, Listm/contribution" =======
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[quote][b]
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Don A. McDonald
40636 |
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: door |
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"I just want that travel to be a bit longer.
That means ordering new CRACK's"
Remove the stop rivet from the shorter of the two, then re-rig to give yourself a bit more throw. The remaining stop rivet will limit travel for both racks.
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Bob Turner
RV-10 QB |
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kearney
Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:52 pm Post subject: door |
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Jae
You may find that you have to revisit this *if* you decide to glass in the
nylon blocks that re recessed on the door. I made them flush all the way
round which reduced the clearance to the door mounted blocks.
Cheers
Les
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bwestfall
Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 131
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:31 pm Post subject: door |
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Yes I definitely have less threads making contact in the rivethead block.
It's a balancing act between bottoming out the an bolt in the rivethead
block and adding enough washers on the bolt head side to keep it from
bottoming but still getting enough threads to grab.
I actually was able to free hand the cut on the bandsaw and it came out
pretty good. The cut side is a bit rough but I put that side toward the
fiberglass.
I thought about your method too and what steered me this way is that I was
leery of cutting into the fiberglass at that point as the door posts are
essentially the "roll bar" if you will. Does the load from the door posts
transfer all the way down to the horizontal deck or is it held by the AN
hardware through the aluminum posts above the door blocks? Would that size
hold in the post change the structural integrity? I really don't know.
I have thought about ordering the Deniri blocks to get around the bolt
"grab" issues. I still might...
-Ben
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n212pj(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:58 pm Post subject: door |
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Sad to see that the door issue has come back to the fore. If I recall, this was on my list of issues that got slammed awhile back. Looking forward to a tested solution that involves both a primary and secondary latch, such as autos have. Would the strap be strong enough for secondary? Not sure. I think Tim James has designed such. John Cox, do you remember Tim's solution? Maybe I can get out to his hanger and take some pics.
John J
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 2:50 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: FW: RV10-List: door
It's really essential that everyone have some improved way of keeping the doors closed: our metal door blocks are one way, buy you could also make your own, get Rivetheads, use a strap or something. This is happening a LOT and it's only a matter of time until the results are very bad.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 2:02 PM, David McNeill <dlm46007(at)cox.net (dlm46007(at)cox.net)> wrote:
[quote]
I believe you may be referring to 416EC; I think the number has now been changed and the aircraft sold. I don't rely on a system. I close the doors and check the pins both fore and aft, both sides, when we load and before takeoff.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Danny Riggs
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 12:21 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: RV10-List: door
That kinda sucks! I've been working on the door latches over the weekend and thinking about the last time I saw this happen. The landing was real firm and the front end was twisted up to the firewall.
From: dlm46007(at)cox.net (dlm46007(at)cox.net)
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: door
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:30:43 -0700
IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 78MU Make/Model: EXP Description: RV-10
Date: 09/26/2009 Time: 1827
Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Minor
LOCATION
City: JEFFERSON CITY State: MO Country: US
DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT ON TAKEOFF, PASSENGER DOOR SEPARATED FROM AIRCRAFT, LANDED WITHOUT
INCIDENT, JEFFERSON CITY, MO
INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
WEATHER: SCT029 BKN045 260/08G15 10SM A2995
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. See how.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
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Lew Gallagher
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: door |
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Thanks DLM and David -- either a tapped screw or cotter key is better than what I've got now and I will replace them.
R.e. the bulging door problem, I like the idea of the baggage door type lock in the middle of the doors, rotating into a slot in the bottom sill -- if that can be operated from the inside, that would do double duty.
Later, - Lew
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non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
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