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William Halverson
Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88
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 Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:00 pm Post subject: Commercial use? |
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OK makes sense now ... thank you!
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tjyak50
Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:27 pm Post subject: Commercial use? |
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Every day of the year pilots are conducting Airshows FOR HIRE in experimental airplanes (including Yaks and Nanchangs).
Several times each and every year our friends kill themselves doing this commercial activity.
Nobody ever bats an eye.
Nobody ever says: Hey, that airshow activity is dangerous and kills people - should we be doing that?
Why is that? I have always wondered.
In the last year we (Yaks / CJS) have lost several of our friends to formation and aerobatic activity.
Flying is risky. There were ten (10) fatalities in my business last year (2 takeoff, 2 formation, 1 acro, 5 weather).
2 more fatalities already this year (2 acro)
I think it is valuable to apply the same passion for friends and aircraft regardless of the activity being conducted.
TJ
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Thomas Johnson, Airpower Insurance, LLC
36 West Ocotillo Road, Phoenix, AZ 85013-1235
Tel: 602-628-2701 or Toll Free: 866-475-9199
E: tomjohnson(at)cox.net (tomjohnson(at)cox.net) or Fax: 623-321-5843
Free Quote: www.airpowerinsurance.com
* Privacy Information
** NO insurance can be started or changed by email until confirmed in writing.
[quote][b]
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tjyak50
Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:29 pm Post subject: Commercial use? |
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That ad for "Incredible Adventures" has been around for years...
The creation date of that ad goes back to 2007.
Dave Riggs is indeed behind all of that.
Dave Riggs is a "household name" in the insurance business (black-balled).
This is an important discussion, however with respect to Incredible Adventures - its nothing new.
The aircraft pictured in the ad should not be confused with the ad.
Tj
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Thomas Johnson, Airpower Insurance, LLC
36 West Ocotillo Road, Phoenix, AZ 85013-1235
Tel: 602-628-2701 or Toll Free: 866-475-9199
E: tomjohnson(at)cox.net (tomjohnson(at)cox.net) or Fax: 623-321-5843
Free Quote: www.airpowerinsurance.com
* Privacy Information
** NO insurance can be started or changed by email until confirmed in writing.
[quote][b]
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N13472(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:52 pm Post subject: Commercial use? |
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Tom, In the case being talked about they are going to be taking / charging people from the general population, adults and children ( note lawyers
love wrongful death suites involving children) for rides/aerobatics/combat in a hazardous environment. All of the activity you refer to involves
owners, crew members. At what official Airshow ( wavered air space) have you seen passengers during a performance?
Tom Elliott
CJ-6A NX63727
702-595-2680
[quote] From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Johnson
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 11:48 AM
To: Yak-List(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Commercial use?
Every day of the year pilots are conducting Airshows FOR HIRE in experimental airplanes (including Yaks and Nanchangs).
Several times each and every year our friends kill themselves doing this commercial activity.
Nobody ever bats an eye.
Nobody ever says: Hey, that airshow activity is dangerous and kills people - should we be doing that?
Why is that? I have always wondered.
In the last year we (Yaks / CJS) have lost several of our friends to formation and aerobatic activity.
Flying is risky. There were ten (10) fatalities in my business last year (2 takeoff, 2 formation, 1 acro, 5 weather).
2 more fatalities already this year (2 acro)
I think it is valuable to apply the same passion for friends and aircraft regardless of the activity being conducted.
TJ
---------------------------
Thomas Johnson, Airpower Insurance, LLC
36 West Ocotillo Road, Phoenix, AZ 85013-1235
Tel: 602-628-2701 or Toll Free: 866-475-9199
E: tomjohnson(at)cox.net (tomjohnson(at)cox.net) or Fax: 623-321-5843
Free Quote: www.airpowerinsurance.com
* Privacy Information
** NO insurance can be started or changed by email until confirmed in writing.
| Quote: |
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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[b]
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:18 pm Post subject: Commercial use? |
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Damned there are to many Tom’s in this thread…I’m getting confused! :^))
Anyway, both are correct. There are no pax during shows in waivered airspace…only safety observers.
As for 10 fatalities last year, why have the results of the AIB’s not been reported. Maybe with a little more knowledge of the circumstances (read series of events) that resulted in the fatalities we as a community just might learn something that will fit in our clue bags. This is not an attempt to be judgmental. It is just an attempt to learn from the mistakes of others before I go out and do something stupid like flying ACM with a bunch of unsuspecting dumb civilians that just want to fighter pilots for a day. Money will get you anything…including dead.
Why do I say that, I, along with some of my fellow Alabama Yakkers, just lost a friend and college yesterday to what apparently sounds like controlled flight into terrain. He and his wife were killed while flying formation off the coast of Destin, Fl. I strongly suspect spatial disorientation as the cause. The day was a clear blue sky and a relatively calm gulf from what friends told me. GLOC could be another cause but we will probably never know for sure.
Evan was a very accomplished pilot and was a proud owner of a P-51 along with a T-6.
Just never know.
Doc
BREAKING NEWS: T-6 FLYER CRASHES INTO THE GULF NEAR TOPSAIL | destin, g
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Elliott
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 2:41 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RE: Commercial use?
Tom, In the case being talked about they are going to be taking / charging people from the general population, adults and children ( note lawyers
love wrongful death suites involving children) for rides/aerobatics/combat in a hazardous environment. All of the activity you refer to involves
owners, crew members. At what official Airshow ( wavered air space) have you seen passengers during a performance?
Tom Elliott
CJ-6A NX63727
702-595-2680
| Quote: |
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Johnson
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 11:48 AM
To: Yak-List(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Commercial use?
Every day of the year pilots are conducting Airshows FOR HIRE in experimental airplanes (including Yaks and Nanchangs).
Several times each and every year our friends kill themselves doing this commercial activity.
Nobody ever bats an eye.
Nobody ever says: Hey, that airshow activity is dangerous and kills people - should we be doing that?
Why is that? I have always wondered.
In the last year we (Yaks / CJS) have lost several of our friends to formation and aerobatic activity.
Flying is risky. There were ten (10) fatalities in my business last year (2 takeoff, 2 formation, 1 acro, 5 weather).
2 more fatalities already this year (2 acro)
I think it is valuable to apply the same passion for friends and aircraft regardless of the activity being conducted.
TJ
---------------------------
Thomas Johnson, Airpower Insurance, LLC
36 West Ocotillo Road, Phoenix, AZ 85013-1235
Tel: 602-628-2701 or Toll Free: 866-475-9199
E: tomjohnson(at)cox.net (tomjohnson(at)cox.net) or Fax: 623-321-5843
Free Quote: www.airpowerinsurance.com
* Privacy Information
** NO insurance can be started or changed by email until confirmed in writing.
| Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c |
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0123456789 | Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
0 | Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
1 | Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
2 | Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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[quote][b]
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vectorwarbirds(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:48 pm Post subject: Commercial use? |
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Dragonman,
I did 12 airshows last year, I saw a passenger in the back of a performing aircraft at every single wavered show. I too wondered, but they are doing it under the needed observer rational. I asked them. All where flying with other aircraft in flybys or formation. The FAA was there as well. I suppose it all goes along until something happens.
Keep on draggin!
TGB
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radiopicture
Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263
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| Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:58 pm Post subject: Commercial use? |
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similar observations
On Mar 8, 2010, at 12:08 PM, vectorwarbirds(at)aol.com (vectorwarbirds(at)aol.com) wrote:
[quote] Dragonman,
I did 12 airshows last year, I saw a passenger in the back of a performing aircraft at every single wavered show. I too wondered, but they are doing it under the needed observer rational. I asked them. All where flying with other aircraft in flybys or formation. The FAA was there as well. I suppose it all goes along until something happens.
Keep on draggin!
TGB
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:13 pm Post subject: Commercial use? |
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Sorry to weigh in on this.
But I see a difference. All that you described... One thing.
Putting total off the street gooners into an aircraft and allowing them
to over-G the aircraft resulting in wings being yanked off .... trying
to be Top Gun wanna-be's, quite another.
Just my 2 cents.
Mark Bitterlich
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cd001633(at)mindspring.co
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:02 pm Post subject: Commercial use? |
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Hi Gary,
Do you know whether the GIBs asked for and received clearance from the FAA to ride in the back (at the Show) or just did it and would have used the "needed Observer" reasoning if questioned?
Sam Sax
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vectorwarbirds(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:09 pm Post subject: Commercial use? |
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Hey Sam,
>From the two guys I talked to it was just "don't ask - don't tell". Don't say nothing until asked. The jet pilot said he has never been questioned but if he was he would pull out the its 'a safety issue' gun. And I can tell you why, every time we ask the FAA anything the answer is NO!
Cheers!
TGB
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KingCJ6(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:34 pm Post subject: Commercial use? |
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I've participated in West coast shows under 3 different FSDO's jurisdiction. In all cases, the Fed's made it crystal clear in the performer's brief that no GIB's would be tolerated ("we will be watching with binoculars"). This was even the case if the a/c was departing the area, during the wavered period, after the performance with a passenger.
Could it be that the East is more liberal than the West??
Dave
In a message dated 3/9/2010 7:10:10 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, vectorwarbirds(at)aol.com writes:
[quote] Hey Sam,
| Quote: | From the two guys I talked to it was just "don't ask - don't tell". Don't say nothing until asked. The jet pilot said he has never been questioned but if he was he would pull out the its 'a safety issue' gun. And I can tell you why, every time we ask the FAA anything the answer is NO!
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Cheers!
TGB
-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Sax <cd001633(at)mindspring.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:01 pm
Subject: Re: RE: Commercial use?
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: Sam Sax <cd001633(at)mindspring.com (cd001633(at)mindspring.com)>
Hi Gary,
Do you know whether the GIBs asked for and received clearance from the FAA to
ride in the back (at the Show) or just did it and would have used the "needed
Observer" reasoning if questioned?
Sam Sax
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vectorwarbirds(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:48 pm Post subject: Commercial use? |
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Well I might add now that I think about it that these shows were all at military bases and multiple aircraft flew at the same time. Who knows?
TGB
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cjpilot710(at)AOL.COM
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:12 pm Post subject: Commercial use? |
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At OSH, S&F and TICO (different FSDOs) it is always the same. NO GIBs- except,
First time PIC in a formation, than a FAST rated GIB can sit there to advise.
Mass lead can have a GIB who also a lead to help manage the flights and extra eyes.
Mass lead may have a GIB who will be checking out as a mass lead of course he is a rated FAST lead..
The airboss is very specific about GIBs during the general briefing, and each and every case is cleared with the FAA observer right there.
You can have GIB if you are departing during wavered airspace but can not participate in the show ie you takeoff and leave. Plus you need to clear that with airboss.
Absolutely no girl friends, pastor, photographer, sponsors, other show pilots, line boys, etc etc.
I have seen the FAA guy OK a active military pilot ride as observer.
The only time GIBs has been allowed in a mass formation, in wavered airspace is at OSH. On 'Warbird Arrival Day" all in bound warbirds arrive at the same time, during wavered airspace, the groups are allowed to have GIBs at that time and no other.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
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