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Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.
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erapp57(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:05 pm Post subject: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

Interesting, the AMD web site is down.

 

  

 

 

  --

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

I listened in to some of the chatter after the Monday Zenith forum at Oshkosh.  I don't know which of the Heintz brothers said it but one of them commented that "Interest in the Zodiac seems to be coming back so we may start selling them again in the near future...."  I suspect they took a step back to see what public opinion would be.  After all, why offer an airplane that no one wants to buy?  If the mods do the job I suspect that we will again see the 650 parked next to the booth in Oshkosh.  They have quite an investment in tooling and materials that I'm sure they would like to benefit from.



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

fgantt(at)texaviation.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:58 pm Post subject: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

TimThanks for your input as a builder reading this list I had become concerned with all the negativity of the list this last week. I am about to order the wing kit from Zenith and this should finish my650 B. I was hoping to hear more reports from all who have completed the upgrade and were flying their completed planes. I believe the more positive input we have the more confident people will be in the completion and in new orders for the 650 B. I believe the survival of the Zenith Aircraft Company is in the best interest of all owners. Please those flying with the upgrades please keep posting to the list all your informations as your knowledge and information help us all.

Thanks

From: "Tim Juhl" <juhl(at)avci.net>Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 4:28 PMTo: zenith601-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" <juhl(at)avci.net>I listened in to some of the chatter after the Monday Zenith forum at Oshkosh.  I don't know which of the Heintz brothers said it but one of them commented that "Interest in the Zodiac seems to be coming back so we may start selling them again in the near future...."  I suspect they took a step back to see what public opinion would be.  After all, why offer an airplane that no one wants to buy?  If the mods do the job I suspect that we will again see the 650 parked next to the booth in Oshkosh.  They have quite an investment in tooling and materials that I'm sure they would like to benefit from.Tim--------______________CFIIChamp L16A flyingZodiac XL - Jabiru 3300ATearing wings apart for modificationRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307092#307092

    [quote][b]

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

 	  Sabrina wrote: 	
		  Thank you Ron.   It is great to have the list back to normal. 



Have you find any difference in material thickness in the main spar? 	




Sabrina,



The rest of the materials in both the main and center spar of the Czech airplane were the same as my prints.

_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

mhubel

Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 141

Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:05 pm Post subject: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

I did the update and have the gross at 1320 with the original VNE 

of 160 mph. Derating it to 1200 would not be practical as that would 

make it a single person aircraft.

     I believe it was effectively illegal to continue flying the 

unmodified airframe although this may have been in a gray zone.



     It is still my feeling that all this was unfortunately caused by 

two documentation issues. Nowhere on my drawings did it say anything 

about the tension on cables. Secondly, the 6G number should never be 

published. "ultimate" G ratings have no meaning on in a pilots operation 

manual and it should not be up the the builder to convert ultimate to 

utility. This is not a 15% error but a 50% error and a operation type. A 

6 G plane is the low end of aerobatics. I believe people were treating 

the CH601 as an acrobatic airplane because of this number.



On 7/31/2010 12:30 PM, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thank you.



 Let's see if this list is capable of having a normal discussion among friends.



 How many of you out there are still flying an XL at 1320 without any modifications?



 How many of you would welcome a de-rate to 1200/N/140 if that meant you did not have to modify your airplane?



 Does anyone have a VNE listed on their XL plans other than 180 or 160?





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306960#306960

_________________
Mark Hubelbank
N708HU
CH601XL
Jabiru 3300
Rotec TBI 40-3 carb
Sensenich ground adj prop.
240 hr TAF
Pictures at photo.hubbles.com

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:37 pm Post subject: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

It is illegal to continue flying the unmodified airplane only if it has a SLSA or normal airworthiness certificate. It is still legal to fly the unmodified airplane if it has an Experimental certificate. The FAA has recommended that E-AB and ELSA versions be modified, they have not mandated it. It would be very difficult for them to mandate the upgrade for E-AB airplanes since they would have to do so for each individual aircraft since each one is technically a one of a kind airplane built by an individual. Some of these airplanes don't even have "Zodiac" or "601XL" on the certificate. If I scratch build an airplane I can literally call it anything I want.



There are E-AB airplanes out there flying that are much more dangerous to fly than any version of the CH601 and the FAA hasn't taken any action against them. For instance, as far as I know, the FAA will still issue an airworthiness certificate for a BD-5J even though these airplanes have a much higher accident rate than the 601XL. All the uproar over the 601XL stinks of politics and tort lawyers.



You do have a point about the 6G ultimate load factor. It seems to me that many builders just don't understand that any version of the 601 can not be flown safely at a 6G loading. The Zodiac is not and was never intended to be an aerobatic airplane. Most kit airplanes were either way over-designed or deliberately designed for aerobatic flight. Neither case applies to the Zodiac.



Another factor may be that many people don't understand what maneuvering speed means. A common misconception is that as long as you are flying at an airspeed below Va, it is not possible for the airplane to exceed its structural limits. This is not correct, it is still possible to break an airplane while flying below Va. It is usually safe to make an abrupt control input about one axis at an airspeed below Va, but moving the controls repeatedly from stop to stop or making abrupt control inputs about more than one axis at a time could exceed the structural limits of the airframe.



 I have determined that my airplane is safe to fly as is without further modifications. I have flown a thorough phase 1 flight test program and determined the safe flight envelope for my airplane. I will continue to fly it as is until I have reason to believe that is is no longer safe to do so.



On Aug 1, 2010, at 10:04 PM, Mark Hubelbank wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

    I believe it was effectively illegal to continue flying the unmodified airframe although this may have been in a gray zone.

 

    It is still my feeling that all this was unfortunately caused by two documentation issues. Nowhere on my drawings did it say anything about the tension on cables. Secondly, the 6G number should never be published. "ultimate" G ratings have no meaning on in a pilots operation manual and it should not be up the the builder to convert ultimate to utility. This is not a 15% error but a 50% error and a operation type. A 6 G plane is the low end of aerobatics. I believe people were treating the CH601 as an acrobatic airplane because of this number.


	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus re-drive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

sabrina

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

Do Not Archive

Last edited by sabrina on Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:23 pm Post subject: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

Bryan and Mark,



I believe you both have both interesting and true points.



One thing I find slightly incorrect is the idea that the FAA can't do

anything about Experimental airplanes.  What they actually did was to

declare that ALL Zodiac XLs were NOT AIRWORTHY until modified and any pilot

who flies an un-airworthy plane was in violation of FARs.  I realize this

was not really enforceable, but they really, really, want owners to install

the upgrade or at least do something, like Sabrina did, to acknowledge there

was a problem in this design.



Anyone who thinks they can control the FAA through interpretation of the

FARs should consider the alledged FAA motto:  "We're not happy 'till you're

not happy."



Paul



--

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:42 am Post subject: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

No, what they have done is to "strongly recommend" that owners of E-LSA and E-AB aircraft comply with the safety directive. The FARs state that it is up to the PIC to determine if the airplane is in an airworthy condition. I, as builder, PIC and aerospace engineer, have determined through a thorough phase 1 test program and continuing inspections that my airplane is safe to fly within the stated flight envelope.



On Aug 2, 2010, at 12:22 AM, Paul Mulwitz wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Bryan and Mark,

 

 I believe you both have both interesting and true points.

 

 One thing I find slightly incorrect is the idea that the FAA can't do

 anything about Experimental airplanes.  What they actually did was to

 declare that ALL Zodiac XLs were NOT AIRWORTHY until modified and any pilot

 who flies an un-airworthy plane was in violation of FARs.  I realize this

 was not really enforceable, but they really, really, want owners to install

 the upgrade or at least do something, like Sabrina did, to acknowledge there

 was a problem in this design.

 

 Anyone who thinks they can control the FAA through interpretation of the

 FARs should consider the alledged FAA motto:  "We're not happy 'till you're

 not happy."

 

 Paul

 

 


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus re-drive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:58 pm Post subject: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

Hope soon, Floyd.



Still working on the upgrade, now finishing the upgrade in the fuselage,  the wings will be next...

Gary Gower

601 XL  Jab 3300

--- On Sun, 8/1/10, Floyd Gantt <fgantt(at)texaviation.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Floyd Gantt <fgantt(at)texaviation.com>

Subject: re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Sunday, August 1, 2010, 5:56 PM



TimThanks for your input as a builder reading this list I had become concerned with all the negativity of the list this last week. I am about to  order the wing kit from Zenith and this should finish my650 B. I was hoping to hear more reports from all who have completed the upgrade and were flying their completed planes. I believe the more positive input we have the more confident people will be in the completion and in new orders for the 650 B. I believe the survival of the Zenith Aircraft Company is in the best interest of all owners. Please those flying with the upgrades please keep posting to the list all your informations as your knowledge and information help us all.

Thanks





From: "Tim Juhl" <juhl(at)avci.net>

Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 4:28 PM

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Report from OSH on  601xl update issues.



--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" <juhl(at)avci.net>



I listened in to some of the chatter after the Monday Zenith forum at Oshkosh.  I don't know which of the Heintz brothers said it but one of them commented that "Interest in the Zodiac seems to be coming back so we may start selling them again in the near future...."  I suspect they took a step back to see what public opinion would be.  After all, why offer an airplane that no one wants to buy?  If the mods do the job I suspect that we will again see the 650 parked next to the booth in Oshkosh.  They have quite an investment in tooling and materials that I'm sure they would like to benefit from.



Tim



--------

______________

CFII

Champ L16A flying

Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A

Tearing wings apart for modification





Read this topic online  here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307092#307092



     	  Quote: 	
		  ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronicsfollow" target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forum==========


	


	




         [quote][b]

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