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IO-360 B1E (180 hp)
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teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:51 am Post subject: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

Oh, yea, it's not an rpm restriction, it's a manifold pressure restriction.

From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM>

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wed, September 29, 2010 10:32:16 AM

Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

 Derating the power would be foe the same reason the 160 hp HP pistons for the Cheetah was derated.  Not doing so requires a complete recertification of the airframe and operating manuals.

From: Brock Windsor <n2_narcosis(at)YAHOO.COM>

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wed, September 29, 2010 3:32:13 AM

Subject: Re: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

 Hey Gary,

    Why would you have to derate the power on the 10:1?  What would it be, an RPM resriction?

 Brock

--- On Tue, 9/28/10, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM> wrote:

 [quote]

From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM>

Subject: Re: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, September 28, 2010, 10:42 PM

     I just saw this.  

 "Why isnâ€™t a 200hp version of the IO360 an option?  I thought I heard that someone transplanted an IO360/CS prop out of a Cardinal with good results.  No?

 Don"

 The 200hp, though it sounds sexy as hell, is a terrible choice for the Tiger.  

 1.  It's 60 lbs heavier.

 2. Requires a modified engine mount

 3. Requires all new baffles

 4. Requires a new airbox and inlet.

 5. Is an inch wider

 6. Has a narrower detonation margin 

 7. Wouldn't be able to fit my cowling on it.

 A ported and polished parallel valve engine with 8.5:1 compression ratio will make 200 hp everyday.  

 A stock parallel valve engine with 10:1 compression ratio will make 210 hp.  Derate that to 180 hp and you have 180 hp to 5,000 + feet.

   From: Don Curry <don.curry(at)inbox.com>

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 9:06:11 AM

Subject: RE: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

Why isnâ€™t a 200hp version of the IO360 an option?  I thought I heard that someone transplanted an IO360/CS prop out of a Cardinal with good results.  No?

Don

--

flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:50 am Post subject: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

All valid reasons and much better to derate the MP  rather than RPM.  As I mentioned you then have a very effective high  altitude efficient engine in comparison to the stock one.  Couple that with  more efficiency at lower speed for both the engine AND prop with a CS prop and  you have a good combination.  Don't know why you would want to go to all  the certification expense and hassle without a CS prop.

  

 Cliff

 [quote]   ---

n2_narcosis(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:54 pm Post subject: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

So would it be a little red line overrev rpm restriction that you could ignore, like on a cheetah or a peppy tiger, or since you would have a constant speed prop the governer would limit the rpm?



--- On Wed, 9/29/10, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM> wrote:

 [quote]

From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM>

Subject: Re: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, September 29, 2010, 12:32 PM



     Derating the power would be foe the same reason the 160 hp HP pistons for the Cheetah was derated.  Not doing so requires a complete recertification of the airframe and operating manuals.

 

   From: Brock Windsor <n2_narcosis(at)YAHOO.COM>

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wed, September 29, 2010 3:32:13 AM

Subject: Re: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)



     Hey Gary,

    Why would you have to derate the power on the 10:1?  What would it be, an RPM resriction?

  

 Brock



--- On Tue, 9/28/10, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM> wrote:



 [quote]

From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM>

Subject: Re: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, September 28, 2010, 10:42 PM



     I just saw this.  

 



 "Why isnâ€™t a 200hp version of the IO360 an option?  I thought I heard that someone transplanted an IO360/CS prop out of a Cardinal with good results.  No?

 Don"

 



 The 200hp, though it sounds sexy as hell, is a terrible choice for the Tiger.  

 1.  It's 60 lbs heavier.

 2. Requires a modified engine mount

 3. Requires all new baffles

 4. Requires a new airbox and inlet.

 5. Is an inch wider

 6. Has a narrower detonation margin 

 7. Wouldn't be able to fit my cowling on it.

 



 A ported and polished parallel valve engine with 8.5:1 compression ratio will make 200 hp everyday.  

 



 A stock parallel valve engine with 10:1 compression ratio will make 210 hp.  Derate that to 180 hp and you have 180 hp to 5,000 + feet.

 

   From: Don Curry <don.curry(at)inbox.com>

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 9:06:11 AM

Subject: RE: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)



      

Why isnâ€™t a 200hp version of the IO360 an option?  I thought I heard that someone transplanted an IO360/CS prop out of a Cardinal with good results.  No?



 

Don



 

 



  

--

n2_narcosis(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:54 pm Post subject: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

OK, so like a NASCAR restrictor plate in the carb?



--- On Wed, 9/29/10, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM> wrote:

 [quote]

From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM>

Subject: Re: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, September 29, 2010, 12:46 PM



     Oh, yea, it's not an rpm restriction, it's a manifold pressure restriction.

 

   From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM>

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wed, September 29, 2010 10:32:16 AM

Subject: Re: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)



  Derating the power would be foe the same reason the 160 hp HP pistons for the Cheetah was derated.  Not doing so requires a complete recertification of the airframe and operating manuals.

 

   From: Brock Windsor <n2_narcosis(at)YAHOO.COM>

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wed, September 29, 2010 3:32:13 AM

Subject: Re: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)



     Hey Gary,

    Why would you have to derate the power on the 10:1?  What would it be, an RPM resriction?

  

 Brock



--- On Tue, 9/28/10, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM> wrote:



 [quote]

From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM>

Subject: Re: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, September 28, 2010, 10:42 PM



     I just saw this.  

 



 "Why isnâ€™t a 200hp version of the IO360 an option?  I thought I heard that someone transplanted an IO360/CS prop out of a Cardinal with good results.  No?

 Don"

 



 The 200hp, though it sounds sexy as hell, is a terrible choice for the Tiger.  

 1.  It's 60 lbs heavier.

 2. Requires a modified engine mount

 3. Requires all new baffles

 4. Requires a new airbox and inlet.

 5. Is an inch wider

 6. Has a narrower detonation margin 

 7. Wouldn't be able to fit my cowling on it.

 



 A ported and polished parallel valve engine with 8.5:1 compression ratio will make 200 hp everyday.  

 



 A stock parallel valve engine with 10:1 compression ratio will make 210 hp.  Derate that to 180 hp and you have 180 hp to 5,000 + feet.

 

   From: Don Curry <don.curry(at)inbox.com>

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 9:06:11 AM

Subject: RE: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)



      

Why isnâ€™t a 200hp version of the IO360 an option?  I thought I heard that someone transplanted an IO360/CS prop out of a Cardinal with good results.  No?



 

Don



 

 



  

--

teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:14 pm Post subject: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

Well, actually, yes. But, unlike the restricter plate, which is set for one set of conditions, I.e., sea level, you would be able to go to WOT as you go up. In other words, there would come an altitude at which you cannot get more than, say, 25 inches of pressure at full throttle. 

The redline, as it were, would be a red line on the MAP gauge. Does that make sense?



Sent from my iPhone



On Sep 29, 2010, at 7:51 PM, Brock Windsor <n2_narcosis(at)YAHOO.COM> wrote:



[quote] OK, so like a NASCAR restrictor plate in the carb?

 

 --- On Wed, 9/29/10, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM> wrote:

 

 From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM>

 Subject: Re: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

 To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Wednesday, September 29, 2010, 12:46 PM

 

 Oh, yea, it's not an rpm restriction, it's a manifold pressure restriction

n2_narcosis(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:31 am Post subject: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

Yea, I get it.  How is it enforced?  What, if anything, physically keeps the pilot from opening the throttle wide open at sea level?  Or is it just a rule the pilot must follow? 

  

 --- On Thu, 9/30/10, Gary <teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM> wrote:



 [quote]

From: Gary <teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM>

Subject: Re: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

To: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com>

Date: Thursday, September 30, 2010, 12:11 AM



  Well, actually, yes. But, unlike the restricter plate, which is set for one set of conditions, I.e., sea level, you would be able to go to WOT as you go up. In other words, there would come an altitude at which you cannot get more than, say, 25 inches of pressure at full throttle. 

The redline, as it were, would be a red line on the MAP gauge. Does that make sense?

 

Sent from my iPhone

 

On Sep 29, 2010, at 7:51 PM, Brock Windsor <n2_narcosis(at)YAHOO.COM (n2_narcosis(at)YAHOO.COM)> wrote:

 

 [quote]     OK, so like a NASCAR restrictor plate in the carb?



--- On Wed, 9/29/10, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM (teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM)> wrote:

 [quote]

From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM (teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM)>

Subject: Re: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)

Date: Wednesday, September 29, 2010, 12:46 PM



     Oh, yea, it's not an rpm restriction, it's a manifold pressure restriction.

 

   From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM (teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM)>

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Wed, September 29, 2010 10:32:16 AM

Subject: Re: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)



  Derating the power would be foe the same reason the 160 hp HP pistons for the Cheetah was derated.  Not doing so requires a complete recertification of the airframe and operating manuals.

 

   From: Brock Windsor <n2_narcosis(at)YAHOO.COM (n2_narcosis(at)YAHOO.COM)>

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Wed, September 29, 2010 3:32:13 AM

Subject: Re: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)



     Hey Gary,

    Why would you have to derate the power on the 10:1?  What would it be, an RPM resriction?

  

 Brock



--- On Tue, 9/28/10, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM (teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM)> wrote:



 [quote]

From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM (teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM)>

Subject: Re: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)

Date: Tuesday, September 28, 2010, 10:42 PM



     I just saw this.  

 



 "Why isnâ€™t a 200hp version of the IO360 an option?  I thought I heard that someone transplanted an IO360/CS prop out of a Cardinal with good results.  No?

 Don"

 



 The 200hp, though it sounds sexy as hell, is a terrible choice for the Tiger.  

 1.  It's 60 lbs heavier.

 2. Requires a modified engine mount

 3. Requires all new baffles

 4. Requires a new airbox and inlet.

 5. Is an inch wider

 6. Has a narrower detonation margin 

 7. Wouldn't be able to fit my cowling on it.

 



 A ported and polished parallel valve engine with 8.5:1 compression ratio will make 200 hp everyday.  

 



 A stock parallel valve engine with 10:1 compression ratio will make 210 hp.  Derate that to 180 hp and you have 180 hp to 5,000 + feet.

 

   From: Don Curry <don.curry(at)inbox.com (don.curry(at)inbox.com)>

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 9:06:11 AM

Subject: RE: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)



      

Why isnâ€™t a 200hp version of the IO360 an option?  I thought I heard that someone transplanted an IO360/CS prop out of a Cardinal with good results.  No?

 

Don

 

 



  

--

flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:50 am Post subject: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

It's not enforced, just the desire of the pilot to  limit the MP, the same as with an engine that can exceed redline rpm.  Do  you think you would limit the MP on takeoff from a short strip with trees  at the end to abide by a redline on the gauge?  And it wouldn't hurt the  engine at all to do so.  There are lots of turbocharged engines that have  MP pressure redlines well below what they are capable of or what the pop off  valve is set for.  Let's say the MP is limited to 25" hg as Gary mentioned,  then you would still be able to achieve full "rated" power at 4000 ft msl as  that is where you would still be able to develop the redline MP of 25".  Of  course that assumes you have a CS prop and not a fixed pitch where rpm would be  much lower for takeoff and therefore much less HP.

  

 Cliff

 [quote]   ---

Discover

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429

Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:07 am Post subject: Re: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

Hey Cliff,



Are you aware of Firewall Forwards STC's for 10:1 pistons for Mooneys and Cessna Cardinals? Yes, they had to demonstrate he detonation margins to get the STC approved. And it is the angle valve engine..



Ned



I don't know if the FAA will issue a multiple STC  for an engine with 10:1 CR without a lot of "detonation margin"  testing.  You obviously have a fair amount of experience with 10:1 CR with  apparently no problems with 100LL fuel at least and that will not only increase  HP and BSFC and be especially beneficial at high altitude where the engine  would not be derated by limiting MP.   A 9.0:1 CR might be much easier  to get approved.  The only real practical solution to the replacement of  100LL will be with a fuel that all the engines certified on 100LL fuel will be  able to operate on without any changes, such as G100UL.

 Cliff

flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:42 pm Post subject: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

Ned,



I didn't know that.  Any restrictions on that STC?  I think I recall reading 

that the angle valve engine might be slightly less prone to detonation 

because of the combustion chamber shaft.  But it's probably not more than 

0.2 CR difference.



Heck, I'm going to be running about 9.7 CR on my 356 Porsche on 92 octane 

auto gas.



Cliff

---

Discover

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429

Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:03 pm Post subject: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

Cliff,

 I think there is a manifold pressure  limitation based on OAT

 and Barometric pressure, ie if it's really  cold (dense air) and at sea level then you have to limit MP...this is what the  salesman told me on the telephone some time ago...

  

  

 More info From:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=70358

  

 Two FAA certified examples of 10:1 pistons  

1) The helicopter engine HIO-360-D1A which is rated at 190HP at 3200RPM on  100/100LL with compression ratio of 10.00:1 

2) Firewall Forward has STC'd  10:1 pistons in the Mooney and Cardinal without RPM restrictions according to  their representative spoke with. 

http://firewallforward.com/horsepowerplusstc.pdf 

Admittedly, these are not paraleel valve but are angle  valve engines but they do show that the FAA has approved 10:1 pistons at or  above 2700rpm 

  

 Then you would have to do similar proof  tests just as Firewall Forward did: 



"The airframe and power plant  certification testing involved engine dyno runs to verify and document both H.P.  and torque increases; engine detonation testing performed at sea level  conditions by authorized FAA testing facilities; engine oil cooling tests  performed by the FAA at gross weight, max rate of climb and an ambient  temperature of 100F, engine propeller vibration and increase torque  compatibility testing performed by McCauley Engineers in Dayton, Ohio; effects  of torque increases on both spin entry and recovery in all flight regimes, and  engine out and airstart procedures evaluated for P.O.H.  compliance."

  

 



 [quote]   ---

teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:09 pm Post subject: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

The angle valve engine is actually more prone to detonation due to the large valve pockets cut into the piston crown.  Parallel valve engines with 14.7:1 have been run at Reno on 100LL.

From: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com>

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Fri, October 22, 2010 1:40:16 PM

Subject: Re: Re: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com (flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com)>

Ned,

I didn't know that.  Any restrictions on that STC?  I think I recall reading that the angle valve engine might be slightly less prone to detonation because of the combustion chamber shaft.  But it's probably not more than 0.2 CR difference.

Heck, I'm going to be running about 9.7 CR on my 356 Porsche on 92 octane auto gas.

Cliff

---

flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 6:03 am Post subject: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

Are you sure it was only 100LL?  They sell 130  octane at Reno.

  

 [quote]   ---

teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:25 am Post subject: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)

that's what Ken Tunnell told me.



From: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com>

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sat, October 23, 2010 7:00:25 AM

Subject: Re: Re: IO-360 B1E (180 hp)



     DIV { MARGIN:0px;}      Are you sure it was only 100LL?  They sell 130  octane at Reno.

  

 [quote]   ---

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