Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - This is for you Ned -CNG in a Grumman

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

This is for you Ned -CNG in a Grumman

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> TeamGrumman-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

n76lima(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:31 am Post subject: This is for you Ned -CNG in a Grumman

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hey Ned,

We should play around with putting a bottle in your 9. Don't know how we could fill it though.

Brock


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Yes Norman even has gas for $1.40 per gallon. It's natural gas and has an octane of around 120. It work very well in my >pickup. Wish my Tiger could use it.


	


Perhaps you could work on pressurizing the spar tube? <G>



With the size and weight of the 12 and 15 GGE tanks that I've seen, you MIGHT be able to install one in the baggage compartment area.  But who wants a "bomb" with 3600 PSI explosive gas right behind you?



And given the fuel consumption of a Tiger, we are talking 1 hour and 1:15 endurance with the 12 and 15 GGE tanks, before being wheels-on-the-pavement!



I've looked at CNG for my pickup, too.  It is $1.25/GGE at the local bus terminal, but that is a 15 mile round trip from my home, and the tank takes up a goodly portion of the 8' bed of the truck, so it just isn't all that practical for me, even if the CNG conversion was free (and its NOT).



I understand that Ned had one of those "Phill" compressors at home and could re-charge the tank overnight off the gas service at his house.  That would help with the inconvenience of travel to fill the tank.  But adds a whole 'nother level of cost to the cost/benefit calculation.  http://www.cngcivic.com/www.cngcivic.html



--Bob Steward

- The Matronics TeamGrumman-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:59 am Post subject: This is for you Ned -CNG in a Grumman

CNG... How compressed is that?  Is that the 3600 PSI?WOW That is as much and more than a SCUBA tank.  

So, why not LCNG... Is there such a thing?  Liquefied Compressed Natural Gas?  That should be at a much lower pressure.  Be very close in weight to AvGas. And the expansion would be way over 50:1

 That could be possible.  ?

Think of the 312 pounds of LCNG with a 50:1 expansion AND the fuel distribution would be equal in all cylinders.  How much would the tanks weigh?

Barry

On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 10:31 AM,  <n76lima(at)mindspring.com (n76lima(at)mindspring.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: n76lima(at)mindspring.com (n76lima(at)mindspring.com)

 >Hey Ned,

 >We should play around with putting a bottle in your 9. Don't know how we could fill it though.

 >Brock

 >Yes Norman even has gas for $1.40 per gallon. It's natural gas and has an octane of around 120. It work very well in my >pickup. Wish my Tiger could use it.

 Perhaps you could work on pressurizing the spar tube? <G>

 With the size and weight of the 12 and 15 GGE tanks that I've seen, you MIGHT be able to install one in the baggage compartment area.  But who wants a "bomb" with 3600 PSI explosive gas right behind you?

 And given the fuel consumption of a Tiger, we are talking 1 hour and 1:15 endurance with the 12 and 15 GGE tanks, before being wheels-on-the-pavement!

 I've looked at CNG for my pickup, too.  It is $1.25/GGE at the local bus terminal, but that is a 15 mile round trip from my home, and the tank takes up a goodly portion of the 8' bed of the truck, so it just isn't all that practical for me, even if the CNG conversion was free (and its NOT).

 I understand that Ned had one of those "Phill" compressors at home and could re-charge the tank overnight off the gas service at his house.  That would help with the inconvenience of travel to fill the tank.  But adds a whole 'nother level of cost to the cost/benefit calculation.  http://www.cngcivic.com/www.cngcivic.html

 --Bob Steward

 ===========

 ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

 ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

 et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 le, List Admin.

 ===========

 List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 [b]

- The Matronics TeamGrumman-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List

n76lima(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:25 am Post subject: This is for you Ned -CNG in a Grumman

It is called LNG, and it is stored in insulated tanks at cryogenic temps. (-260F)

The energy density is ~70% that of gasoline on a per gallon basis.

As Ned mentioned, NG has an "octane" of well over 100.

In addition, a liquid introduced into the induction air would boil to vapor and suck the heat out of the air, lowering the density altitude of the combustion air enough to give a significant performance boost.

Talk about latent heat of vaporization...

--Bob Steward

FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  CNG... How compressed is that?  Is that the 3600 PSI?

WOW That is as much and more than a SCUBA tank.

So, why not LCNG... Is there such a thing?  Liquefied Compressed Natural

Gas?  That should be at a much lower pressure.  Be very close in weight to

AvGas. And the expansion would be way over 50:1

That could be possible.  ?

Think of the 312 pounds of LCNG with a 50:1 expansion AND the

fuel distribution would be equal in all cylinders.  How much would the

tanks weigh?

Barry

On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 10:31 AM, <n76lima(at)mindspring.com> wrote:

> 

>

> >Hey Ned,

> >We should play around with putting a bottle in your 9. Don't know how we

> could fill it though.

> >Brock

>

> >Yes Norman even has gas for $1.40 per gallon. It's natural gas and has an

> octane of around 120. It work very well in my >pickup. Wish my Tiger could

> use it.

>

> Perhaps you could work on pressurizing the spar tube? <G>

>

> With the size and weight of the 12 and 15 GGE tanks that I've seen, you

> MIGHT be able to install one in the baggage compartment area.  But who

> wants a "bomb" with 3600 PSI explosive gas right behind you?

>

> And given the fuel consumption of a Tiger, we are talking 1 hour and 1:15

> endurance with the 12 and 15 GGE tanks, before being wheels-on-the-pavement!

>

> I've looked at CNG for my pickup, too.  It is $1.25/GGE at the local bus

> terminal, but that is a 15 mile round trip from my home, and the tank takes

> up a goodly portion of the 8' bed of the truck, so it just isn't all that

> practical for me, even if the CNG conversion was free (and its NOT).

>

> I understand that Ned had one of those "Phill" compressors at home and

> could re-charge the tank overnight off the gas service at his house.  That

> would help with the inconvenience of travel to fill the tank.  But adds a

> whole 'nother level of cost to the cost/benefit calculation.

> http://www.cngcivic.com/www.cngcivic.html

>

> --Bob Steward

>

- The Matronics TeamGrumman-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List

Discover

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:06 am Post subject: This is for you Ned -CNG in a Grumman

You can get LPG for $1.68 nearby our airport. Older proven technology and heavier than air but its doable......No need for evacuated double walled tanks

http://mobile.altfuelprices.com/address_mobile.php?id=3005&lat=35.1411790&lng=-97.4769773&fuel_type=16&address=Goldsby,%20ok&start=0

On Nov 22, 2012, at 10:48 AM, "n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com (n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com)" <n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com (n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

Well, its just LNG. The problem is its cryogenic. You have to have an evacuated dewar to hold the liquid since room temp is above the critical temp of methane. It's expansion is closer to 400 :1 I believe. That could be for nitrogen I can't remember. Anyway it requires a fairy large double walled tank with a vacuum between the walls. 

From my HTC Sensation 4G on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network

----- Reply message -----

From: "FLYaDIVE" <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)>

To: <teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)>

Subject: Re: This is for you Ned -CNG in a Grumman

Date: Thu, Nov 22, 2012 9:58 am

CNG... How compressed is that?  Is that the 3600 PSI?WOW That is as much and more than a SCUBA tank.  

So, why not LCNG... Is there such a thing?  Liquefied Compressed Natural Gas?  That should be at a much lower pressure.  Be very close in weight to AvGas. And the expansion would be way over 50:1

 That could be possible.  ?

Think of the 312 pounds of LCNG with a 50:1 expansion AND the fuel distribution would be equal in all cylinders.  How much would the tanks weigh?

Barry

On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 10:31 AM,  <n76lima(at)mindspring.com (n76lima(at)mindspring.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: n76lima(at)mindspring.com (n76lima(at)mindspring.com)

 >Hey Ned,

 >We should play around with putting a bottle in your 9. Don't know how we could fill it though.

 >Brock

 >Yes Norman even has gas for $1.40 per gallon. It's natural gas and has an octane of around 120. It work very well in my >pickup. Wish my Tiger could use it.

 Perhaps you could work on pressurizing the spar tube? <G>

 With the size and weight of the 12 and 15 GGE tanks that I've seen, you MIGHT be able to install one in the baggage compartment area.  But who wants a "bomb" with 3600 PSI explosive gas right behind you?

 And given the fuel consumption of a Tiger, we are talking 1 hour and 1:15 endurance with the 12 and 15 GGE tanks, before being wheels-on-the-pavement!

 I've looked at CNG for my pickup, too.  It is $1.25/GGE at the local bus terminal, but that is a 15 mile round trip from my home, and the tank takes up a goodly portion of the 8' bed of the truck, so it just isn't all that practical for me, even if the CNG conversion was free (and its NOT).

 I understand that Ned had one of those "Phill" compressors at home and could re-charge the tank overnight off the gas service at his house.  That would help with the inconvenience of travel to fill the tank.  But adds a whole 'nother level of cost to the cost/benefit calculation.  http://www.cngcivic.com/www.cngcivic.html

 --Bob Steward

 ===========

 ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

 ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

 et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 le, List Admin.

 ===========

 List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

===================================

ctric.com

 	  Quote: 	
		  www.buildersbooks.com

uilthelp.com

matronics.com/contribution

===================================

t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List

===================================

cs.com

===================================

 kyï¿½ï¿½ï¿½"ï¿½íœ¢Z+ï¿½M4ï¿½Gï¿½qï¿½(ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½wï¿½rï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Ï•ï¿½y+ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½bï¿½ï¿½.+-ï¿½8bï¿½ï¿½'ï¿½'tgï¿½Jï¿½ï¿½a8ï¿½DAï¿½ï¿½l6ï¿½Þ™ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ax	ç¹©Kï¿½ï¿½Eï¿½wQj+ï¿½)brJ'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½{kï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½yzZ0ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½.ï¿½j+yï¿½ï¿½ï¿½aï¿½Ìžjï¿½zï¿½ï¿½~'ï¿½çˆÇ§ï¿½+ï¿½'ï¿½ï¿½'^uï¿½ï¿½zï¿½ï¿½ï¿½-ï¿½'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½iï¿½ï¿½0ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½^rï¿½ï¿½qï¿½&ï¿½zï¿½ï¿½ï¿½-ï¿½'ï¿½oï¿½Nï¿½ï¿½)]zï¿½ï¿½ï¿½,ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½jï¿½~mï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½W^ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Kï¿½l0ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½×«ï¿½ï¿½(ï¿½ï¿½(ï¿½ï¿½gï¿½ï¿½)mBï¿½jï¿½~mï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½hï¿½ï¿½ï¿½[azZ\ï¿½l0ï¿½&yï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½^ï¿½ï¿½(ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Bï¿½{kï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½yï¿½ï¿½ï¿½æ¡ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½0ï¿½ï¿½kï¿½xï¿½ï¿½ï¿½&ï¿½ï¿½'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Ø¨ï¿½mï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½	ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½oÜ¢{kï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½i8Zï¿½Lï¿½ï¿½ï¿½+Ê‹ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Þ®ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½iï¿½ï¿½Ljï¿½Cï¿½ï¿½exï¿½ï¿½ï¿½fï¿½tï¿½y7ï¿½ï¿½jï¿½fï¿½.+-fï¿½ï¿½Z+ï¿½e,zï¿½^1ï¿½kï¿½xï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Wï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Þ°Ö¯ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½hnï¿½0ï¿½ï¿½azfï¿½È¸ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½bï¿½+bzï¿½.rï¿½.+-RÒ¹ï¿½ï¿½*mï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½bï¿½ï¿½jï¿½!ï¿½'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½6ï¿½ï¿½0ï¿½ï¿½jï¿½(at)(at)ï¿½hï¿½ï¿½!jï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Ù®rï¿½rï¿½ï¿½æ¡ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½0ï¿½ï¿½kï¿½xï¿½ï¿½ï¿½&ï¿½Ö¯ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½jaï¿½ï¿½iï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½mï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½	ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½oï¿½jï¿½jï¿½+Mï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ËŠï¿½hï¿½Dï¿½H	%ï¿½Sï¿½PÄ’jgï¿½ï¿½ï¿½rï¿½ï¿½z{Zï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½iï¿½^ï¿½&ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½lZ+ï¿½kï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½iï¿½ï¿½ï¿½é¬™ï¿½kï¿½xï¿½ï¿½ï¿½&ï¿½ï¿½iï¿½ï¿½ï¿½é¬™ï¿½kï¿½xï¿½ï¿½ï¿½&ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½'ï¿½ï¿½k{ï¿½ï¿½w/ï¿½i

 [quote][b]

- The Matronics TeamGrumman-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> TeamGrumman-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum