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wschertz(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:21 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer 

for avoiding stripouts like phillips

Bill Schertz



--

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:31 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

You understood what I was saying correctly.  Problem             was, what I was saying was INCORRECT. The details of                     my mea culpa are in an earlier                       email.  Thanks for taking the time                         to point out my error.

        	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN.



"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	
       On 03/26/2013 06:47 AM, Jared Yates wrote:

     

     [quote]        	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> (email(at)jaredyates.com)



I think I just realized the source of my confusion. When I read "hex head" I visualized the head of an AN bolt. Maybe instead we are talking about socket heads?



On Mar 26, 2013, at 6:41, Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> (glastar(at)gmx.net) wrote:



          	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> (glastar(at)gmx.net)



Ray checkout http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm



I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws



Cheers Werner



On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:

            	  Quote: 	
		  Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I

prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.

	
         



	
       



	
     [b]

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:42 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

Looks           like a great source for fasteners.  I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a                         big assortment of small AN screws.  If I could have                                 gotten an stuff with 6                                   lobe recess, I would have prefered it.  Definitely preferable to Phillips. 

        	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN.



"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	
       On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:

     

     [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William       Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> (wschertz(at)comcast.net)       

       

       Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive,       much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips       

       Bill Schertz       

       

       --

uuccio(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:58 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some?  I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer. 



On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

[quote]                   Looks           like a great source for fasteners.  I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a                         big assortment of small AN screws.  If I could have                                 gotten an stuff with 6                                   lobe recess, I would have prefered it.  Definitely preferable to Phillips. 

        	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN.



"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	
       On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:

     

     [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William       Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> (wschertz(at)comcast.net)       

       

       Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive,       much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips       

       Bill Schertz       

       

       --

jay(at)horriblehyde.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:25 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

Hello Sacha,

 

I have the same problem in South Africa.Â  For non structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion.Â  Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see.Â  I have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts.Â  J

 

For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or dieâ€¦) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.

 

Johannesburg Jay

 

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha

Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

 

Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some?  I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer. 

On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

[quote]

Looks like a great source for fasteners.  I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN screws.  If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it.  Definitely preferable to Phillips. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond JulianKettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	


On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:

[quote]

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> (wschertz(at)comcast.net) 



Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips 

Bill Schertz 



--

uuccio(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:59 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

Echo that... It's a shame that our US friends (and hence much of the aviation world) is still stuck using that antiquated system... Metric seems so much more coherent. 

Anyway at the moment I'm presented with a situation which requires me to use metric which is why I'm asking the question.  I've also been doing what you do (stainless for non structural, AN for the structural parts) but I am now presented with the following dilemma:

For some reason the previous owner has drilled some 8mm holes and appears to have been using 8mm stainless bolts to fasten the wings of the Kitfox I'm rebuilding. The original design calls for 5/16" diameter holes and AN5 bolts. But now I'm reluctant to use them because an AN5 bolt will be a bit loose (5/16" = 7.93mm) in an 8mm hole. On the other hand an M8 regular stainless bolt is not really strong enough. 

The best I've found so far is A4-80 a.k.a "strong stainless" which has a shear strength of 800MPa (vs the 700MPa of regular stainless). Plugging in the numbers gives a shear capacity of an M8 bolt as 800*8*8*pi/4= 40kN which is approx 9000 lb.  This is still approx 20% below that of an AN5 bolt (11500lb). Hence my search for metric "aircraft grade" fasteners...

Ok sorry for the rant and for straying OT. I thought I would try to use the vast knowledge base if this group since I'm getting nowhere with Google... (just mentioning this in for you Eric...

Sacha 

On Mar 26, 2013, at 15:25, "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com (jay(at)horriblehyde.com)> wrote:

[quote]  <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->

Hello Sacha,

 

I have the same problem in South Africa.  For non structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion.  Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see.  I have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts.  J

 

For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or dieâ€¦) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.

 

Johannesburg Jay

 

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Sacha

Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

 

Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some?  I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer. 

On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

[quote]

Looks like a great source for fasteners.  I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN screws.  If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it.  Definitely preferable to Phillips. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond JulianKettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	


On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:

[quote]

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> (wschertz(at)comcast.net) 



Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips 

Bill Schertz 



--

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:27 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

Sacha,

         

         The only suggestions I can think of are possibly sail               boat hardware suppliers,                   or high performance motor sports                     suppliers.

                     

                     Good luck on your search.

                           

               	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN.



"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	
       On 03/26/2013 10:53 AM, Sacha wrote:

     

     [quote]              

                         Echo that... It's a shame that our US friends (and hence           much of the aviation world) is still stuck using that           antiquated system... Metric seems so much more coherent. 

         

         

         Anyway at the moment I'm presented with a situation which           requires me to use metric which is why I'm asking the           question.  I've also been doing what you do (stainless for non           structural, AN for the structural parts) but I am now           presented with the following dilemma:

         

         

         For some reason the previous owner has drilled some 8mm           holes and appears to have been using 8mm stainless bolts to           fasten the wings of the Kitfox I'm rebuilding. The original           design calls for 5/16" diameter holes and AN5 bolts. But now           I'm reluctant to use them because an AN5 bolt will be a bit           loose (5/16" = 7.93mm) in an 8mm hole. On the other hand an M8           regular stainless bolt is not really strong enough. 

         

         

         The best I've found so far is A4-80 a.k.a "strong           stainless" which has a shear strength of 800MPa (vs the 700MPa           of regular stainless). Plugging in the numbers gives a shear           capacity of an M8 bolt as 800*8*8*pi/4= 40kN which is approx           9000 lb.  This is still approx 20% below that of an AN5 bolt           (11500lb). Hence my search for metric "aircraft grade"           fasteners...

         

         

         Ok sorry for the rant and for straying OT. I thought I           would try to use the vast knowledge base if this group since           I'm getting nowhere with Google... (just mentioning this in           for you Eric...

         

         

         Sacha 

         

         

         On Mar 26, 2013, at 15:25, "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com (jay(at)horriblehyde.com)>           wrote:

           

         

         [quote]                                                    <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->                            

Hello                   Sacha,               

                

I                   have the same problem in South Africa.  For non                   structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and                   nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect against                   corrosion.  Stainless steel and aluminium have                   relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can                   see.  I have given up trying to source, or even                   understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread                   system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and                   ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts.  J               

                

For                   structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and                   they are not too difficult to understand (unless you                   need to order a tap or die…) ; I order them directly                   from Aircraft Spruce in the US.               

                

Johannesburg                   Jay               

                

                                                    

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)                       [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)]                       On Behalf Of Sacha

                       Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM

                       To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

                       Subject: Re: Blind                       riveting ground to airframe?                 

               

               

                                 

Does                   anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN                   fastener is and where I can buy some?  I'm in Italy,                   so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing                   to order from the US if necessary. I've been going                   nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can                   only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail                   buyer.                

                                



                   On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)>                   wrote:               

               [quote]                                                         

Looks like a great                         source for fasteners.  I wanted to be sure the                         ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up                         ordering a big assortment of small AN screws.                          If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe                         recess, I would have prefered it.  Definitely                         preferable to Phillips. 

                         

                                               	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond JulianKettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	
                     

On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM,                         William Schertz wrote:                   

                   [quote]                     

-->                       AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William                       Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> (wschertz(at)comcast.net)                       

                       

                       Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head                       with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts                       like phillips 

                       Bill Schertz 

                       

                       --

gerry.vandyk(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:38 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

Sacha, have a look at Unbrako products.  http://unbrako.com/  They're primarily socket head cap screws, both imperial and metric, all with rolled threads and I believe they're the highest quality fasteners for industrial use.  You can download they're engineering guide to research how they compare to AN for strength and ductility, hopefully they're up to par on corrosion resistance as well.  They're European base is in Ireland, I imagine their products should be available at industrial suppliers. 

  

Gerry



 

   From: "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com>

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:53:55 AM

Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?



 

  Echo that... It's a shame that our US friends (and hence much of the aviation world) is still stuck using that antiquated system... Metric seems so much more coherent. 

 



 Anyway at the moment I'm presented with a situation which requires me to use metric which is why I'm asking the question.  I've also been doing what you do (stainless for non structural, AN for the structural parts) but I am now presented with the following dilemma:

 



 For some reason the previous owner has drilled some 8mm holes and appears to have been using 8mm stainless bolts to fasten the wings of the Kitfox I'm rebuilding. The original design calls for 5/16" diameter holes and AN5 bolts. But now I'm reluctant to use them because an AN5 bolt will be a bit loose (5/16" = 7.93mm) in an 8mm hole. On the other hand an M8 regular stainless bolt is not really strong enough. 

 



 The best I've found so far is A4-80 a.k.a "strong stainless" which has a shear strength of 800MPa (vs the 700MPa of regular stainless). Plugging in the numbers gives a shear capacity of an M8 bolt as 800*8*8*pi/4= 40kN which is approx 9000 lb.  This is still approx 20% below that of an AN5 bolt (11500lb). Hence my search for metric "aircraft grade" fasteners...

 



 Ok sorry for the rant and for straying OT. I thought I would try to use the vast knowledge base if this group since I'm getting nowhere with Google... (just mentioning this in for you Eric...

 



 Sacha 

 



 On Mar 26, 2013, at 15:25, "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com (jay(at)horriblehyde.com)> wrote:

 [quote]     

Hello Sacha, 

  

I have the same problem in South Africa.  For non structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion.  Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see.  I have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts.  J 

  

For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or dieâ€¦) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US. 

  

Johannesburg Jay 

  

    

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Sacha

Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?



 

   

Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some?  I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer. 

  



On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

 [quote]   

Looks like a great source for fasteners.  I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN screws.  If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it.  Definitely preferable to Phillips. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond JulianKettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	
 

On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:

 [quote] 

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> (wschertz(at)comcast.net) 



Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips 

Bill Schertz 



--

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:57 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

Sacha,



Normally, I'd suggest that you simply go up one size to AN6 hardware.  Cost a tiny bit in weight but is easy to do and the hardware is readily available through Spruce and other suppliers.

If you feel you must stay with metric hardware, you can try McMaster-Carr ( mcmaster.com ) for high-strength steel metric bolts.  They have class 10.9 bolts with a structural rating of 150,000 psi or greater.  They are even available partially threaded with a Zinc-Chromate finish just like good AN hardware.  Go to their web site, select fasteners then select screws.  Next, from the left hand column you can select metric and the size, M8.  

You will have to decide if these are strong enough to meet your needs.

Good luck.



 Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)



 

 

On Mar 26, 2013, at 10:53 AM, Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com (uuccio(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



Echo that... It's a shame that our US friends (and hence much of the aviation world) is still stuck using that antiquated system... Metric seems so much more coherent. 

Anyway at the moment I'm presented with a situation which requires me to use metric which is why I'm asking the question.  I've also been doing what you do (stainless for non structural, AN for the structural parts) but I am now presented with the following dilemma:

For some reason the previous owner has drilled some 8mm holes and appears to have been using 8mm stainless bolts to fasten the wings of the Kitfox I'm rebuilding. The original design calls for 5/16" diameter holes and AN5 bolts. But now I'm reluctant to use them because an AN5 bolt will be a bit loose (5/16" = 7.93mm) in an 8mm hole. On the other hand an M8 regular stainless bolt is not really strong enough. 

The best I've found so far is A4-80 a.k.a "strong stainless" which has a shear strength of 800MPa (vs the 700MPa of regular stainless). Plugging in the numbers gives a shear capacity of an M8 bolt as 800*8*8*pi/4= 40kN which is approx 9000 lb.  This is still approx 20% below that of an AN5 bolt (11500lb). Hence my search for metric "aircraft grade" fasteners...

Ok sorry for the rant and for straying OT. I thought I would try to use the vast knowledge base if this group since I'm getting nowhere with Google... (just mentioning this in for you Eric...

Sacha 





 [quote][b]

LynnCole(at)foxvalley.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:05 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

Sacha,The approved method for using ANx bolts for critical items like wing and strut or horizontal stab attachments is to drill the holes undersized and use an adjustable reamer to ream the holes to a tight fit for the bolts.  The reamed hole will be undersized by 0.001-0.003 inches compared to the nominal size of the bolt.

 -----

Lynn Cole

LynnCole(at)foxvalley.net (LynnCole(at)foxvalley.net)



 

 

On Mar 26, 2013, at 10:53 AM, Sacha wrote:

[quote]

Echo that... It's a shame that our US friends (and hence much of the aviation world) is still stuck using that antiquated system... Metric seems so much more coherent. 

Anyway at the moment I'm presented with a situation which requires me to use metric which is why I'm asking the question.  I've also been doing what you do (stainless for non structural, AN for the structural parts) but I am now presented with the following dilemma:

For some reason the previous owner has drilled some 8mm holes and appears to have been using 8mm stainless bolts to fasten the wings of the Kitfox I'm rebuilding. The original design calls for 5/16" diameter holes and AN5 bolts. But now I'm reluctant to use them because an AN5 bolt will be a bit loose (5/16" = 7.93mm) in an 8mm hole. On the other hand an M8 regular stainless bolt is not really strong enough. 

The best I've found so far is A4-80 a.k.a "strong stainless" which has a shear strength of 800MPa (vs the 700MPa of regular stainless). Plugging in the numbers gives a shear capacity of an M8 bolt as 800*8*8*pi/4= 40kN which is approx 9000 lb.  This is still approx 20% below that of an AN5 bolt (11500lb). Hence my search for metric "aircraft grade" fasteners...

Ok sorry for the rant and for straying OT. I thought I would try to use the vast knowledge base if this group since I'm getting nowhere with Google... (just mentioning this in for you Eric...

Sacha 

On Mar 26, 2013, at 15:25, "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com (jay(at)horriblehyde.com)> wrote:

[quote]  <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->

Hello Sacha,

 

I have the same problem in South Africa.  For non structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion.  Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see.  I have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts.  J

 

For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or dieâ€¦) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.

 

Johannesburg Jay

 

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Sacha

Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

 

Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some?  I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer. 

On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

[quote]

Looks like a great source for fasteners.  I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN screws.  If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it.  Definitely preferable to Phillips. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond JulianKettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	


On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:

[quote]

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> (wschertz(at)comcast.net) 



Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips 

Bill Schertz 



--

bob.verwey(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:30 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

Robert, agree with you. Lets not loose sight of the fact that an AN bolt has "grip" and a relatively short thread. This is by far the most convenient feature, because with other fasteners you will end up cutting off excess thread, and you will have to go and measure for yourself what the grip is. Hardware is a fraction of the weight or cost of the project. Straying from aircraft hardware will cost you lots of time. 

Also, aircraft bolts are "tough", and will bend long before they break. And they are corrosion protected with no danger of hydrogen embrittlement, and ....the list goes on.....

 



Bob Verwey

Bonanza ZU-DLW

Safari     ZU-AJF



On 26 March 2013 18:57, Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)> wrote:

 [quote]Sacha,



Normally, I'd suggest that you simply go up one size to AN6 hardware.  Cost a tiny bit in weight but is easy to do and the hardware is readily available through Spruce and other suppliers.

 



If you feel you must stay with metric hardware, you can try McMaster-Carr ( mcmaster.com ) for high-strength steel metric bolts.  They have class 10.9 bolts with a structural rating of 150,000 psi or greater.  They are even available partially threaded with a Zinc-Chromate finish just like good AN hardware.  Go to their web site, select fasteners then select screws.  Next, from the left hand column you can select metric and the size, M8.  

 



You will have to decide if these are strong enough to meet your needs.

Good luck.



  Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

 3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: [url=tel:817-992-1117]817-992-1117[/url]

rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)



 

 

On Mar 26, 2013, at 10:53 AM, Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com (uuccio(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Echo that... It's a shame that our US friends (and hence much of the aviation world) is still stuck using that antiquated system... Metric seems so much more coherent. 

 



Anyway at the moment I'm presented with a situation which requires me to use metric which is why I'm asking the question.  I've also been doing what you do (stainless for non structural, AN for the structural parts) but I am now presented with the following dilemma:

 



For some reason the previous owner has drilled some 8mm holes and appears to have been using 8mm stainless bolts to fasten the wings of the Kitfox I'm rebuilding. The original design calls for 5/16" diameter holes and AN5 bolts. But now I'm reluctant to use them because an AN5 bolt will be a bit loose (5/16" = 7.93mm) in an 8mm hole. On the other hand an M8 regular stainless bolt is not really strong enough. 

 



The best I've found so far is A4-80 a.k.a "strong stainless" which has a shear strength of 800MPa (vs the 700MPa of regular stainless). Plugging in the numbers gives a shear capacity of an M8 bolt as 800*8*8*pi/4= 40kN which is approx 9000 lb.  This is still approx 20% below that of an AN5 bolt (11500lb). Hence my search for metric "aircraft grade" fasteners...

 



Ok sorry for the rant and for straying OT. I thought I would try to use the vast knowledge base if this group since I'm getting nowhere with Google... (just mentioning this in for you Eric...

 



Sacha 





  	  Quote: 	
		  



ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

rv8iator(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:41 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

Hello Sacha...

The quick answer is there are no AN metric fasteners... Â The US military never adopted the metric system so all are US ANSI standard sizes. Â That said acceptable metricÂ equivalentsÂ can be found.

 



Stainless Steel

Stainless steel is a family of iron-based alloys that must contain at least 10.5% chromium. The presence of

chromium creates an invisible surface film that resists oxidation and makes the material â€œpassiveâ€ or

 corrosion resistant. Other elements, such as nickel or molybdenum are added to increase corrosion

resistance, strength or heat resistance.

Stainless steels can be simply and logically divided into three classes on the basis of their microstructure;

 austenitic, martensitic or ferritic. Each of these classes has specific properties and basic grade or â€œtype.â€

Also, further alloy modifications can be made to alter the chemical composition to meet the needs of

 different corrosion conditions, temperature ranges, strength requirements, or to improve weldability,

machinability, work hardening and formability.

Austenitic stainless steels contain higher amounts of chromium and nickel than the other types. They are

 not hardenable by heat treatment and offer a high degree of corrosion resistance. Primarily, they are nonmagnetic;

however, some parts may become slightly magnetic after cold working. The tensile strength of

 austenitic stainless steel varies from 75,000 to 105,000 psi.

18-8 Stainless steel is a type of austenitic stainless steel that contains approximately 18% chromium and

8% nickel. Grades of stainless steel in the 18-8 series include, but not limited to; 302, 303, 304 and XM7.

 

Alloy Steels

Carbon steel can be classified as an alloy steel when the manganese content exceeds 1.65%, when silicon

or copper exceeds 0.60% or when chromium is less then 4%. Carbon steel can also be classified as an

 alloy if a specified minimum content of aluminum, titanium, vanadium, nickel or any other element has

been added to achieve specific results. Additions of chromium, nickel and molybdenum improve the

 capacity of the alloys to be heat treated, giving rise to a wide variety of strength to ductility combinations.





SAE J429 Grade 8, ASTM A354 Grade BD, ASTM A490, ASTM A193 B7 are all common examples of

 alloy steel fasteners.



ASTM A193 B7

â€¢ Tensile Strength: 125,000 PSI minimum (2-1/2-inch and under)

â€¢ Yield Strength: 105,000 PSI minimum (2-1/2-inch and under)

â€¢ Hardness: HRC 35 Maximum

 



SAE J429 Grade 8

â€¢ Tensile Strength: 150,000 PSI minimum

â€¢ Proof Strength: 120,000 PSI

â€¢ Yield Strength: 130,000 PSI minimum

â€¢ Hardness: HRC 33-39

ASTM A574 Socket Head Cap Screw

 â€¢ Tensile Strength: 180,000 PSI minimum (through Â½â€), 170,000 PSI minimum (above Â½â€)

â€¢ Proof Strength: 140,000 PSI (through Â½â€), 135,000 PSI (above Â½â€)

â€¢ Yield Strength: 153,000 PSI minimum

 â€¢ Hardness: HRC 39-45 (through Â½â€), HRC 37-45 (above Â½â€)



Metric Grade 8 hardware:

http://metric-threaded.com/items.aspx?category=Inch%20Hex%20Head%20Bolt%20Grade%208%20Zinc%20Yellow&id=7306 



Chris Stone

RV-8

Newberg, OR

On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 8:53 AM, Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com (uuccio(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]

Echo that... It's a shame that our US friends (and hence much of the aviation world) is still stuck using that antiquated system... Metric seems so much more coherent.Â 

 



Anyway at the moment I'm presented with a situation which requires me to use metric which is why I'm asking the question. Â I've also been doing what you do (stainless for non structural, AN for the structural parts) but I am now presented with the following dilemma:

 



For some reason the previous owner has drilled some 8mm holes and appears to have been using 8mm stainless bolts to fasten the wings of the Kitfox I'm rebuilding. The original design calls for 5/16" diameter holes and AN5 bolts. But now I'm reluctant to use them because an AN5 bolt will be a bit loose (5/16" = 7.93mm) in an 8mm hole. On the other hand an M8 regular stainless bolt is not really strong enough.Â 

 



The best I've found so far is A4-80 a.k.a "strong stainless" which has a shear strength of 800MPa (vs the 700MPa of regular stainless). Plugging in the numbers gives a shear capacity of an M8 bolt as 800*8*8*pi/4= 40kN which is approx 9000 lb. Â This is still approx 20% below that of an AN5 bolt (11500lb). Hence my search for metric "aircraft grade" fasteners...

 



Ok sorry for the rant and for straying OT. I thought I would try to use the vast knowledge base if this group since I'm getting nowhere with Google... (just mentioning this in for you Eric...

 



SachaÂ 

On Mar 26, 2013, at 15:25, "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com (jay(at)horriblehyde.com)> wrote:

[quote] 

Hello Sacha,

Â  

I have the same problem in South Africa.Â  For non structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion.Â  Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see.Â  I have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts.Â  J 

Â 

For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or dieâ€¦) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US. 

Â 

Johannesburg Jay 

Â 

Â  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Sacha

 Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? 

Â 

Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some? Â I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer.Â  

On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote: 

[quote]

Looks like a great source for fasteners.Â  I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN screws.Â  If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it.Â  Definitely preferable to Phillips. 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond JulianKettle River, MN.Â 

"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	


 On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:

[quote]

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> (wschertz(at)comcast.net) 

 

Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips 

Bill Schertz 



--

peter(at)sportingaero.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:04 pm Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

Sacha,

     

     There is no metric equivalent to AN fasteners, different     manufacturers seem to use different standards of hardware. Find your     local Piper or Cessna supply house - or the mechanic at your local     airfield - as they will surely have a good supply of AN hardware. In     the UK LAS Aerospace have a good supply, but shipping is expensive     to continental Europe. Alternatively you could try A/C Spruce as     they have a reasonable network of suppliers throughout Europe. 

     

     Peter 

     

     On 26/03/2013 13:57, Sacha wrote:

     

     [quote]              Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener         is and where I can buy some? Â I'm in Italy, so preferably         somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if         necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look         for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the         retail buyer.Â 

       

         On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)>         wrote:

         

       

       [quote]                               Looks like a great source for fasteners.Â  I wanted                       to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I                             ended up ordering a big                               assortment of small AN screws.Â  If I could have                                       gotten an stuff with                                         6 lobe recess, I                                           would have prefered it.Â  Definitely preferable                                                   to Phillips. 

                                                	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN.



"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	
                                               On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM,                                               William Schertz wrote:

                                             

           [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by:             "William Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> (wschertz(at)comcast.net)             

             

             Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx             drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips 

             Bill Schertz 

             

             --

uuccio(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:55 pm Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

All,



Thank you very much for all the excellent avenues to explore re metric hardware, I learnt a lot in just one evening!



I am leaning towards the solution involving the next AN size up (AN6 bolts, but will have to check whether the fittings will allow it), and will try to do it as per Lynn's instructions. 



Sacha

Bob McC

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Toronto, ON

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:06 pm Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

Sacha;  

   

The “proper” solution to your dilemma is to ream the holes to accept AN-6 hardware of the correct length and not substitute alternative materials of unknown provenance in this critical application. The only remaining proviso is to check edge distances etc carefully for adequate strength. It’s unlikely that the difference between -5 and -6 hardware will compromise the structural integrity of the mount especially since your holes are already 8mm. Your new larger holes will only be about 30 thousandths of an inch closer to the edge. Not enough to make much difference, but still critical to check.  

   

Good luck  

   

Bob McC   

           

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha

 Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 11:54 AM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?  

  

       

Echo that... It's a shame that our US friends (and hence much of the aviation world) is still stuck using that antiquated system... Metric seems so much more coherent.   

    

   

    

Anyway at the moment I'm presented with a situation which requires me to use metric which is why I'm asking the question.  I've also been doing what you do (stainless for non structural, AN for the structural parts) but I am now presented with the following dilemma:  

    

   

    

For some reason the previous owner has drilled some 8mm holes and appears to have been using 8mm stainless bolts to fasten the wings of the Kitfox I'm rebuilding. The original design calls for 5/16" diameter holes and AN5 bolts. But now I'm reluctant to use them because an AN5 bolt will be a bit loose (5/16" = 7.93mm) in an 8mm hole. On the other hand an M8 regular stainless bolt is not really strong enough.   

    

   

    

The best I've found so far is A4-80 a.k.a "strong stainless" which has a shear strength of 800MPa (vs the 700MPa of regular stainless). Plugging in the numbers gives a shear capacity of an M8 bolt as 800*8*8*pi/4= 40kN which is approx 9000 lb.  This is still approx 20% below that of an AN5 bolt (11500lb). Hence my search for metric "aircraft grade" fasteners...  

    

   

    

Ok sorry for the rant and for straying OT. I thought I would try to use the vast knowledge base if this group since I'm getting nowhere with Google... (just mentioning this in for you Eric...  

    

   

    

Sacha   

    

   

    

On Mar 26, 2013, at 15:25, "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com (jay(at)horriblehyde.com)> wrote:  

  [quote]     <![endif]-->        <![endif]-->  

Hello Sacha,  

   

I have the same problem in South Africa.  For non structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion.  Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see.  I have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts.  J    

   

For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die…) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.  

   

Johannesburg Jay  

   

       

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Sacha

 Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?  

  

  

     

Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some?  I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer.   

    



 On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:  

  [quote]      

Looks like a great source for fasteners.  I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN screws.  If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it.  Definitely preferable to Phillips. 

 

 

    	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond JulianKettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	
  

On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:  

  [quote]  

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> (wschertz(at)comcast.net) 

 

 Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips 

 Bill Schertz 

 

 --

_________________
Bob McC
Falco #908
(just starting)

bicyclop(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:36 pm Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will     donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium     is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier.     Eventually, it has no more ions to donate and loses it's value as a     corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware. Another approach     would be to prime your hardware and install it wet.

     

     Ed Holyoke

     

     On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:     [quote]                       <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->                

Hello Sacha,         

Â          

I have the same problem in South Africa.Â  For non             structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts;             usually stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion.Â              Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic             potentials as far as I can see.Â  I have given up trying to             source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt             thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and             ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts.Â  J         

Â          

For structural parts you must however use AN             fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand             (unless you need to order a tap or dieâ€¦) ; I order them             directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.         

Â          

Johannesburg Jay         

Â          

Â                                  

From:                 owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)                 [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On                   Behalf Of Sacha

                 Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM

                 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

                 Subject: Re: Blind riveting                 ground to airframe?           

         

         

Â                     

Does anyone             know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and             where I can buy some? Â I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere             in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if             necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to             look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing             for the retail buyer.Â          

                    



             On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)>             wrote:         

         [quote]                                       

Looks like a great source                   for fasteners.Â  I wanted to be sure the ones I chose                   were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment                   of small AN screws.Â  If I could have gotten an stuff                   with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it.Â                    Definitely preferable to Phillips. 

                   

                                   	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond JulianKettle River, MN.Â "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	
               

On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM,                   William Schertz wrote:             

             [quote]               

-->                 AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> (wschertz(at)comcast.net)                 

                 

                 Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx                 drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips 

                 Bill Schertz 

                 

                 --

fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:19 pm Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum  rivets to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?

  

 Bevan



   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed  Holyoke

Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Blind  riveting ground to airframe?

 

Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will  donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium is more  anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has  no more ions to donate and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time  then for new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware and  install it wet.



Ed Holyoke



On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:   	  Quote: 	
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Hello    Sacha,   

   

I    have the same problem in South Africa.  For non structural parts I simply    use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect    against corrosion.  Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close    galvanic potentials as far as I can see.  I have given up trying to    source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its    far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6    nuts.  J   

   

For    structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too    difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die…) ; I order    them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.   

   

Johannesburg    Jay   

   

         

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)    [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)]    On Behalf Of Sacha

Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM

To:    aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject:    Re: Blind riveting ground to    airframe?



   

      

Does anyone know what the METRIC    equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some?  I'm in Italy,    so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if    necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but    can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail    buyer. 

      



On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)>    wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		                 

Looks like a great source for fasteners.  I      wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a      big assortment of small AN screws.  If I could have gotten an stuff      with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it.  Definitely preferable to      Phillips. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond JulianKettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	
     

On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz      wrote:

      	  Quote: 	
		         

--> AeroElectric-List        message posted by: "William Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> (wschertz(at)comcast.net) 



Also note        that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for        avoiding stripouts like phillips 

Bill Schertz 



-----Original        Message----- From: Werner Schneider 

Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41        AM 

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com) 

Subject:        Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? 



-->        AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> (glastar(at)gmx.net) 



Ray checkout http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm        



I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws        



Cheers Werner 



On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:        



       

Agreed. I was looking for        some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I 

prefer a hex head over        slotted or phillips screw heads.        






	
     

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:09 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

At 01:16 AM 3/28/2013, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?

  

 Bevan

 	


    I seem to recall some conversations many Many MANY moons

    back about monel rivets used on firewall assemblies. Wasn't

    my area of interest at the time. It would be interesting to

    dig out a Cessna Service Parts catalog of the 1960's and see

    what attaching parts are called out for oowl attach brackets.



 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

dee.whittington(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:49 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

Yes, Bob, that is the answer. Our Sportsman kit came with a supply of Monel rivets for the thin, stainless firewall. 



Dee



 On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 10:07 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     At 01:16 AM 3/28/2013, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?

  

 Bevan

 	




    I seem to recall some conversations many Many MANY moons

    back about monel rivets used on firewall assemblies. Wasn't

    my area of interest at the time. It would be interesting to

    dig out a Cessna Service Parts catalog of the 1960's and see

    what attaching parts are called out for oowl attach brackets.



 

   Bob . . .     	  Quote: 	
		  



ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	




-- 

DeWitt (Dee) Whittington804-677-4849 iPhone

804-358-4333 Home

www.VirginiaFlyIn.org

 Building Glasair Sportsman with 3 partners



 

  [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:03 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?

At 11:47 AM 3/28/2013, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Yes, Bob, that is the answer. Our Sportsman kit came with a supply 

of Monel rivets for the thin, stainless firewall.



Dee


	


    I think it was in the booth at OSH that

    an EAA'er said they were "harder than the

    hubs of hell", was that you?



   Bob . . .

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