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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:19 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
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Yet there are many thousands of RV-x's flying with regular A/N aluminum rivets holding stainless firewalls to aluminum *and steel* structure. Many of them for several decades.
Aluminum is primed; steel is either primed or powder coated (depending on the age of the kit). Things get bent or cracked occasionally, but I've never seen anyone on any of the user groups complain about rivet or aluminum corrosion in the firewall area.
Charlie
On 03/28/2013 11:47 AM, DeWitt Whittington wrote:
[quote] Yes, Bob, that is the answer. Our Sportsman kit came with a supply of Monel rivets for the thin, stainless firewall.
Dee
On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 10:07 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 01:16 AM 3/28/2013, you wrote:
| Quote: | How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
Bevan
|
I seem to recall some conversations many Many MANY moons
back about monel rivets used on firewall assemblies. Wasn't
my area of interest at the time. It would be interesting to
dig out a Cessna Service Parts catalog of the 1960's and see
what attaching parts are called out for oowl attach brackets.
Bob . . .
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[b]
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dee.whittington(at)gmail.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:26 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
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No, don't remember that. Ours were -3s and yes, and even then they were not easy to drive. Two of us did it holding the firewall horizontal over a bucking bar clamped in a vise.
Dee
On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>
At 11:47 AM 3/28/2013, you wrote:
| Quote: | Yes, Bob, that is the answer. Our Sportsman kit came with a supply of Monel rivets for the thin, stainless firewall.
Dee
|
I think it was in the booth at OSH that
an EAA'er said they were "harder than the
hubs of hell", was that you?
Bob . . .
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DeWitt (Dee) Whittington804-677-4849 iPhone
804-358-4333 Home
www.VirginiaFlyIn.org
Building Glasair Sportsman with 3 partners
[quote][b]
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bicyclop(at)pacbell.net
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| Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:58 pm Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
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With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it should certainly be done at dissimilar metal joints.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote: [quote] How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
Bevan
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware and install it wet.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote: [quote] (at)font-face { font-family: Wingdings; } (at)font-face { font-family: Cambria Math; } (at)font-face { font-family: Calibri; } (at)font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } (at)font-face { font-family: Consolas; } (at)font-face { font-family: 3DȬourier; } (at)page WordSection1 {size: 612.0pt 792.0pt; margin: 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt; } P.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } LI.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } DIV.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } A:visited { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } PRE { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Courier New"; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "HTML Preformatted Char" } SPAN.HTMLPreformattedChar { FONT-FAMILY: Consolas; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "HTML Preformatted"; mso-style-name: "HTML Preformatted Char" } SPAN.EmailStyle19 { FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-style-type: personal-reply } .MsoChpDefault { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-type: export-only } DIV.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1 } OL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0cm } UL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0cm } <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Hello Sacha,
I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die…) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
Johannesburg Jay
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Sacha
Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer.
On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:
[quote]
Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips.
| Quote: | | Raymond JulianKettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine |
On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
[quote]
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> (wschertz(at)comcast.net)
Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
Bill Schertz
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peter(at)sportingaero.com
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:20 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
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Ed,
Drifting somewhat from the theme of this list, but to say that alclad doesn't need priming is a bold statement. In Texas maybe, but in a cool maritime climate it isn't really adequate protection against the dreaded metal worm in the long term.
For grounding studs I have seen bright zinc plated bolts used with the primer removed from the structure they were inserted into. To make it clear what they are the paint finish was restored with a contrasting colour (blue in this case I'm thinking of against puke yellow primer), but leaving the nut holding the stud in unpainted for good electrical connection.
Peter
On 29/03/2013 02:57, Ed Holyoke wrote:
[quote] With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it should certainly be done at dissimilar metal joints.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote: [quote] How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
Bevan
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware and install it wet.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote: [quote] (at)font-face { font-family: Wingdings; } (at)font-face { font-family: Cambria Math; } (at)font-face { font-family: Calibri; } (at)font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } (at)font-face { font-family: Consolas; } (at)font-face { font-family: 3DȬourier; } (at)page WordSection1 {size: 612.0pt 792.0pt; margin: 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt; } P.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } LI.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } DIV.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } A:visited { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } PRE { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Courier New"; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "HTML Preformatted Char" } SPAN.HTMLPreformattedChar { FONT-FAMILY: Consolas; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "HTML Preformatted"; mso-style-name: "HTML Preformatted Char" } SPAN.EmailStyle19 { FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-style-type: personal-reply } .MsoChpDefault { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-type: export-only } DIV.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1 } OL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0cm } UL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0cm } <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Hello Sacha,
I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die…) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
Johannesburg Jay
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Sacha
Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer.
On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:
[quote]
Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips.
| Quote: | | Raymond JulianKettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine |
On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
[quote]
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> (wschertz(at)comcast.net)
Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
Bill Schertz
--
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uuccio(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:19 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
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Will any old primer do or are there products that work better than others on certain materials (I'm thinking Al and Stainless in particular since my Cromoly frame is already primed.
On Mar 29, 2013, at 10:19, Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com (peter(at)sportingaero.com)> wrote:
[quote] Ed,
Drifting somewhat from the theme of this list, but to say that alclad doesn't need priming is a bold statement. In Texas maybe, but in a cool maritime climate it isn't really adequate protection against the dreaded metal worm in the long term.
For grounding studs I have seen bright zinc plated bolts used with the primer removed from the structure they were inserted into. To make it clear what they are the paint finish was restored with a contrasting colour (blue in this case I'm thinking of against puke yellow primer), but leaving the nut holding the stud in unpainted for good electrical connection.
Peter
On 29/03/2013 02:57, Ed Holyoke wrote:
[quote] With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it should certainly be done at dissimilar metal joints.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote: [quote] How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
Bevan
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware and install it wet.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote: [quote] (at)font-face { font-family: Wingdings; } (at)font-face { font-family: Cambria Math; } (at)font-face { font-family: Calibri; } (at)font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } (at)font-face { font-family: Consolas; } (at)font-face { font-family: 3DȬourier; } (at)page WordSection1 {size: 612.0pt 792.0pt; margin: 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt; } P.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } LI.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } DIV.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } A:visited { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } PRE { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Courier New"; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "HTML Preformatted Char" } SPAN.HTMLPreformattedChar { FONT-FAMILY: Consolas; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "HTML Preformatted"; mso-style-name: "HTML Preformatted Char" } SPAN.EmailStyle19 { FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-style-type: personal-reply } .MsoChpDefault { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-type: export-only } DIV.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1 } OL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0cm } UL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0cm } <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Hello Sacha,
I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die…) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
Johannesburg Jay
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Sacha
Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer.
On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:
[quote]
Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips.
| Quote: | | Raymond JulianKettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine |
On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
[quote]
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> (wschertz(at)comcast.net)
Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
Bill Schertz
--
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:19 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
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Good Morning Ed,
Care to comment as to how well Anodizing works?
I Anodize all small parts before painting.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 3/28/2013 10:00:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time, bicyclop(at)pacbell.net writes:
[quote]With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it should certainly be done at dissimilar metal joints.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote: [quote] How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
Bevan
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware and install it wet.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote: [quote] (at)font-face { font-family: Wingdings; } (at)font-face { font-family: Cambria Math; } (at)font-face { font-family: Calibri; } (at)font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } (at)font-face { font-family: Consolas; } (at)font-face { font-family: 3DȬourier; } (at)page WordSection1 {size: 612.0pt 792.0pt; margin: 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt; } P.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } LI.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } DIV.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } A:visited { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } PRE { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Courier New"; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "HTML Preformatted Char" } SPAN.HTMLPreformattedChar { FONT-FAMILY: Consolas; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "HTML Preformatted"; mso-style-name: "HTML Preformatted Char" } SPAN.EmailStyle19 { FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-style-type: personal-reply } .MsoChpDefault { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-type: export-only } DIV.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1 } OL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0cm } UL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0cm }
Hello Sacha,
I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die…) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
Johannesburg Jay
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Sacha
Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer.
On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:
[quote]
Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips.
| Quote: | | Raymond JulianKettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine |
On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
[quote]
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> (wschertz(at)comcast.net)
Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
Bill Schertz
--
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:37 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
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|
Good morning Bob,
I think you are referring to using the chemical chromate Alodine
process. Anodizing I believe requires equipment that most of us don't have.
From Wikipedia "*Anodizing* (also spelled 'Anodising', particularly in
the UK) is an electrolytic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolyte>
passivation <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passivation_%28chemistry%29>
process used to increase the thickness of the natural oxide
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxide> layer on the surface of metal
parts. The process is called "anodizing" because the part to be treated
forms the anode <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anode> electrode of an
electrical circuit <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_circuit>. "
Kelly
On 3/29/2013 6:18 AM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
[quote] Good Morning Ed,
Care to comment as to how well Anodizing works?
I Anodize all small parts before painting.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 3/28/2013 10:00:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
bicyclop(at)pacbell.net writes:
With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet
stock in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need
primer. All extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to
be primed to prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying
surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it should certainly
be done at dissimilar metal joints.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote:
> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets
> to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
> Bevan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf
> Of *Ed Holyoke
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>
> Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum
> will donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The
> cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a
> sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate
> and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for
> new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware
> and install it wet.
>
> Ed Holyoke
>
> On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
>>
>> Hello Sacha,
>>
>> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural
>> parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually
>> stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless
>> steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as
>> far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even
>> understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far
>> easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and
>> M6 nuts. J
>>
>> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they
>> are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a
>> tap or die…) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
>>
>> Johannesburg Jay
>>
>> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf
>> Of *Sacha
>> *Sent:* 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>
>> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is
>> and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere
>> in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary.
>> I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some
>> but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail
>> buyer.
>>
>>
>> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net
>> <mailto:raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be
>> sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering
>> a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten
>> an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it.
>> Definitely preferable to Phillips.
>>
>> Raymond Julian
>>
>> Kettle River, MN.
>>
>>
>>
>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
>>
>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>>
>> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
>>
>>
>> Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net>
>> <mailto:wschertz(at)comcast.net>
>>
>> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx
>> drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
>> Bill Schertz
>>
>> --
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:35 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
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|
The concerns for forestalling environmental effects
on assembled parts and attach hardware are quite
germane to our mission for doing the best we know how
to do . . . so don't feel that this topic has run off
into the weeds.
At the same time, recall that making good electrical
connection between a wire and some surface of the
airframe is dependent on that ring of terminal material
around the hole and the surface to which it comes in
contact. Having the equivalent of hermetic or gas-
tight contact in this critical area is where the
magic happens for getting your electrons from point
A to point B over the lifetime of the airplane.
Gas tightness is a function of FORCE used to mate up
and maintain the terminal's intimate contact with the
airframe. The proper force may be secured with a variety
of materials . . . materials that have to live with their
surroundings too. But you can enjoy excellent electrical
performance even if the screw is crusted with rust . . .
as long as that 'magic donut' of contact is still good.
Where the messiness of silicone grease migration can
be tolerated, doping the mating surfaces of terminal and
airplane with Dow Corning DC4 or equal goes to filling
any voids in the final mate-up to the exclusion of
moisture.
These are separate but related issues, each with their
own recipes for success.
Bob . . .
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peter(at)sportingaero.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:08 pm Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
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|
Bob,
When I worked for Hawkers (that's the real Hawkers of Hurricane, Sea Fury, Hunter and Harrier fame) we anodized every aluminium part that wasn't clad, and then epoxy primed the lot with a 2 pack chromate primer. There is a very slight loss of ductility in the surface layers with anodizing, but most manufacturers take the view that that is a small price to pay for the long term prevention of corrosion.
To answer an earlier question, for AB aircraft (that typically lead a fairly cosseted life) I think that any corrosion preventing primer will be much better than none at all - but I really am not looking to start primer wars here!
Peter
On 29/03/2013 13:18, BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com) wrote:
[quote] Good Morning Ed,
Â
Care to comment as to how well Anodizing works?
Â
I Anodize all small parts before painting.
Â
Happy Skies,
Â
Old Bob
Â
In a message dated 3/28/2013 10:00:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time, bicyclop(at)pacbell.net (bicyclop(at)pacbell.net) writes:
[quote]With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it should certainly be done at dissimilar metal joints.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote: [quote] How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
Â
Bevan
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware and install it wet.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote: [quote] (at)font-face { font-family: Wingdings; } (at)font-face { font-family: Cambria Math; } (at)font-face { font-family: Calibri; } (at)font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } (at)font-face { font-family: Consolas; } (at)font-face { font-family: 3DȬourier; } (at)page WordSection1 {size: 612.0pt 792.0pt; margin: 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt; } P.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } LI.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } DIV.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } A:visited { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } PRE { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Courier New"; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "HTML Preformatted Char" } SPAN.HTMLPreformattedChar { FONT-FAMILY: Consolas; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "HTML Preformatted"; mso-style-name: "HTML Preformatted Char" } SPAN.EmailStyle19 { FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-style-type: personal-reply } .MsoChpDefault { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-type: export-only } DIV.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1 } OL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0cm } UL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0cm }
Hello Sacha,
I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die…) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
Johannesburg Jay
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Sacha
Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some? Â I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer.Â
On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:
[quote]
Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips.
| Quote: | | Raymond JulianKettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine |
On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
[quote]
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> (wschertz(at)comcast.net)
Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
Bill Schertz
--
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:16 pm Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
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Good Afternoon Kelly,
As Usual you are correct. My lack of education is showing again.
Thanks for the correction.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 3/29/2013 9:40:19 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
kellym(at)aviating.com writes:
<kellym(at)aviating.com>
Good morning Bob,
I think you are referring to using the chemical chromate Alodine
process. Anodizing I believe requires equipment that most of us don't have
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bicyclop(at)pacbell.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:18 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
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|
Howdy Peter,
Right you are. Alclad isn't perfect, but for most of us it will be good enough. Here in California and hangared there really isn't a lot of concern about corrosion. This will not be true everywhere and in all conditions. That said, how many of our homebuilt airplanes will be flying in fifty years? For many of us the aircraft will likely outlive us whether or not we prime everything and if we spend so much time obsessing about the future life of the aircraft that it doesn't get finished until our medicals are no longer renewable..... Well, you get the picture. Gotta balance serviceability and utility with getting done in time to fly it.
Another factor is of course weight. Priming everything could add say five pounds, maybe more. Doesn't seem like much but it tends to add up. Folks really like the deep shine of a base/clear coat paint job and those tend to be ten or more pounds heavier than single stage to color. Can't really see the difference from ten feet, let alone a thousand. Some of us pad the whole interior with leather and/or carpet. Looks great and reminds of of a luxury car but doesn't improve the way the airplane flies.
The great thing about homebuilding is that you can choose what you want in a way that certificated aircraft will never do. Maybe you've got grandkids who will keep the airplane flying a long time and would appreciate having everything primed. If you want to load the panel with every possible goodie and don't care about the weight, hey - it's your airplane. I'm looking to keep it light while being maintainable. I doubt that the alclad skins will show any sign of corrosion in my lifetime and then there's always CorrosionX.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/29/2013 2:19 AM, Peter Pengilly wrote: [quote] Ed,
Drifting somewhat from the theme of this list, but to say that alclad doesn't need priming is a bold statement. In Texas maybe, but in a cool maritime climate it isn't really adequate protection against the dreaded metal worm in the long term.
For grounding studs I have seen bright zinc plated bolts used with the primer removed from the structure they were inserted into. To make it clear what they are the paint finish was restored with a contrasting colour (blue in this case I'm thinking of against puke yellow primer), but leaving the nut holding the stud in unpainted for good electrical connection.
Peter
On 29/03/2013 02:57, Ed Holyoke wrote:
[quote] With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it should certainly be done at dissimilar metal joints.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote: [quote] How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
Bevan
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware and install it wet.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote: [quote] (at)font-face { font-family: Wingdings; } (at)font-face { font-family: Cambria Math; } (at)font-face { font-family: Calibri; } (at)font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } (at)font-face { font-family: Consolas; } (at)font-face { font-family: 3DȬourier; } (at)page WordSection1 {size: 612.0pt 792.0pt; margin: 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt; } P.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } LI.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } DIV.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } A:visited { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } PRE { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Courier New"; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "HTML Preformatted Char" } SPAN.HTMLPreformattedChar { FONT-FAMILY: Consolas; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "HTML Preformatted"; mso-style-name: "HTML Preformatted Char" } SPAN.EmailStyle19 { FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-style-type: personal-reply } .MsoChpDefault { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-type: export-only } DIV.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1 } OL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0cm } UL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0cm } <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Hello Sacha,
I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die…) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
Johannesburg Jay
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Sacha
Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer.
On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:
[quote]
Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips.
| Quote: | | Raymond JulianKettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine |
On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
[quote]
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> (wschertz(at)comcast.net)
Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
Bill Schertz
--
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bicyclop(at)pacbell.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:29 am Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
|
|
Epoxy primer is the gold standard. It's also sort of a pain to mix, spray, and clean up after. For long term between dissimilar metals, probably worth doing. For little parts when I don't want to go through all the trouble, I've been using self etching primer in the rattle can. Rustoleum brand is available at Lowe's and HD. It's dark green. Looks a bit like the old zinc chromate only it doesn't clog the nozzle up like that stuff always did.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/29/2013 6:18 AM, Sacha wrote: [quote] Will any old primer do or are there products that work better than others on certain materials (I'm thinking Al and Stainless in particular since my Cromoly frame is already primed.Â
On Mar 29, 2013, at 10:19, Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com (peter(at)sportingaero.com)> wrote:
[quote] Ed,
Drifting somewhat from the theme of this list, but to say that alclad doesn't need priming is a bold statement. In Texas maybe, but in a cool maritime climate it isn't really adequate protection against the dreaded metal worm in the long term.
For grounding studs I have seen bright zinc plated bolts used with the primer removed from the structure they were inserted into. To make it clear what they are the paint finish was restored with a contrasting colour (blue in this case I'm thinking of against puke yellow primer), but leaving the nut holding the stud in unpainted for good electrical connection.
Peter
On 29/03/2013 02:57, Ed Holyoke wrote:
[quote] With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it should certainly be done at dissimilar metal joints.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote: [quote] How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
Â
Bevan
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware and install it wet.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote: [quote] (at)font-face { font-family: Wingdings; } (at)font-face { font-family: Cambria Math; } (at)font-face { font-family: Calibri; } (at)font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } (at)font-face { font-family: Consolas; } (at)font-face { font-family: 3DȬourier; } (at)page WordSection1 {size: 612.0pt 792.0pt; margin: 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt; } P.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } LI.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } DIV.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } A:visited { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } PRE { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Courier New"; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "HTML Preformatted Char" } SPAN.HTMLPreformattedChar { FONT-FAMILY: Consolas; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "HTML Preformatted"; mso-style-name: "HTML Preformatted Char" } SPAN.EmailStyle19 { FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-style-type: personal-reply } .MsoChpDefault { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-type: export-only } DIV.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1 } OL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0cm } UL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0cm } <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Hello Sacha,
I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die…) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
Johannesburg Jay
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Sacha
Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some? Â I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer.Â
On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:
[quote]
Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips.
| Quote: | | Raymond JulianKettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine |
On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
[quote]
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> (wschertz(at)comcast.net)
Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
Bill Schertz
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peter(at)sportingaero.com
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| Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:53 pm Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
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Hi Ed,
I agree with most of what you say. I'm in England, there is nowhere here that is > 50 miles from the sea, and for a lot of the year it is damp and not very warm. Quickbuild RVs suffer corrosion inside their wings here and need to be treated with CorrosionX or ACF50 after painting. There aren't many old C150s or Cherokees either as most of them have rotted away! So priming is definitely required to protect your investment ... It takes quite a bit longer, uses nasty chemicals, weighs more and I hate all the prep and spraying, but there isn't really an option in this climate.
Peter
On 01/04/2013 17:17, Ed Holyoke wrote:
[quote] Howdy Peter,
Right you are. Alclad isn't perfect, but for most of us it will be good enough. Here in California and hangared there really isn't a lot of concern about corrosion. This will not be true everywhere and in all conditions. That said, how many of our homebuilt airplanes will be flying in fifty years? For many of us the aircraft will likely outlive us whether or not we prime everything and if we spend so much time obsessing about the future life of the aircraft that it doesn't get finished until our medicals are no longer renewable..... Well, you get the picture. Gotta balance serviceability and utility with getting done in time to fly it.
Another factor is of course weight. Priming everything could add say five pounds, maybe more. Doesn't seem like much but it tends to add up. Folks really like the deep shine of a base/clear coat paint job and those tend to be ten or more pounds heavier than single stage to color. Can't really see the difference from ten feet, let alone a thousand. Some of us pad the whole interior with leather and/or carpet. Looks great and reminds of of a luxury car but doesn't improve the way the airplane flies.
The great thing about homebuilding is that you can choose what you want in a way that certificated aircraft will never do. Maybe you've got grandkids who will keep the airplane flying a long time and would appreciate having everything primed. If you want to load the panel with every possible goodie and don't care about the weight, hey - it's your airplane. I'm looking to keep it light while being maintainable. I doubt that the alclad skins will show any sign of corrosion in my lifetime and then there's always CorrosionX.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/29/2013 2:19 AM, Peter Pengilly wrote: [quote] Ed,
Drifting somewhat from the theme of this list, but to say that alclad doesn't need priming is a bold statement. In Texas maybe, but in a cool maritime climate it isn't really adequate protection against the dreaded metal worm in the long term.
For grounding studs I have seen bright zinc plated bolts used with the primer removed from the structure they were inserted into. To make it clear what they are the paint finish was restored with a contrasting colour (blue in this case I'm thinking of against puke yellow primer), but leaving the nut holding the stud in unpainted for good electrical connection.
Peter
On 29/03/2013 02:57, Ed Holyoke wrote:
[quote] With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it should certainly be done at dissimilar metal joints.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote: [quote] How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
Bevan
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware and install it wet.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote: [quote] (at)font-face { font-family: Wingdings; } (at)font-face { font-family: Cambria Math; } (at)font-face { font-family: Calibri; } (at)font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } (at)font-face { font-family: Consolas; } (at)font-face { font-family: 3DȬourier; } (at)page WordSection1 {size: 612.0pt 792.0pt; margin: 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt; } P.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } LI.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } DIV.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } A:visited { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } PRE { MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Courier New"; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "HTML Preformatted Char" } SPAN.HTMLPreformattedChar { FONT-FAMILY: Consolas; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "HTML Preformatted"; mso-style-name: "HTML Preformatted Char" } SPAN.EmailStyle19 { FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-style-type: personal-reply } .MsoChpDefault { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-type: export-only } DIV.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1 } OL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0cm } UL { MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0cm } <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Hello Sacha,
I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die…) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
Johannesburg Jay
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Sacha
Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer.
On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:
[quote]
Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips.
| Quote: | | Raymond JulianKettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine |
On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
[quote]
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> (wschertz(at)comcast.net)
Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
Bill Schertz
--
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uuccio(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:03 pm Post subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
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Same here. Sicily is not as damp as England, but my hangar is only 100m from the sea. If I leave a screwdriver out of its’ box it will rust in a couple of weeks!
Thanks Ed for the tips
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Pengilly
Sent: Monday, 01 April, 2013 21:42
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Hi Ed,
I agree with most of what you say. I'm in England, there is nowhere here that is > 50 miles from the sea, and for a lot of the year it is damp and not very warm. Quickbuild RVs suffer corrosion inside their wings here and need to be treated with CorrosionX or ACF50 after painting. There aren't many old C150s or Cherokees either as most of them have rotted away! So priming is definitely required to protect your investment ... It takes quite a bit longer, uses nasty chemicals, weighs more and I hate all the prep and spraying, but there isn't really an option in this climate.
Peter
On 01/04/2013 17:17, Ed Holyoke wrote:
[quote]
Howdy Peter,
Right you are. Alclad isn't perfect, but for most of us it will be good enough. Here in California and hangared there really isn't a lot of concern about corrosion. This will not be true everywhere and in all conditions. That said, how many of our homebuilt airplanes will be flying in fifty years? For many of us the aircraft will likely outlive us whether or not we prime everything and if we spend so much time obsessing about the future life of the aircraft that it doesn't get finished until our medicals are no longer renewable..... Well, you get the picture. Gotta balance serviceability and utility with getting done in time to fly it.
Another factor is of course weight. Priming everything could add say five pounds, maybe more. Doesn't seem like much but it tends to add up. Folks really like the deep shine of a base/clear coat paint job and those tend to be ten or more pounds heavier than single stage to color. Can't really see the difference from ten feet, let alone a thousand. Some of us pad the whole interior with leather and/or carpet. Looks great and reminds of of a luxury car but doesn't improve the way the airplane flies.
The great thing about homebuilding is that you can choose what you want in a way that certificated aircraft will never do. Maybe you've got grandkids who will keep the airplane flying a long time and would appreciate having everything primed. If you want to load the panel with every possible goodie and don't care about the weight, hey - it's your airplane. I'm looking to keep it light while being maintainable. I doubt that the alclad skins will show any sign of corrosion in my lifetime and then there's always CorrosionX.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/29/2013 2:19 AM, Peter Pengilly wrote:
Ed,
Drifting somewhat from the theme of this list, but to say that alclad doesn't need priming is a bold statement. In Texas maybe, but in a cool maritime climate it isn't really adequate protection against the dreaded metal worm in the long term.
For grounding studs I have seen bright zinc plated bolts used with the primer removed from the structure they were inserted into. To make it clear what they are the paint finish was restored with a contrasting colour (blue in this case I'm thinking of against puke yellow primer), but leaving the nut holding the stud in unpainted for good electrical connection.
Peter
On 29/03/2013 02:57, Ed Holyoke wrote:
[quote]
With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it should certainly be done at dissimilar metal joints.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote:
How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
Bevan
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware and install it wet.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
Hello Sacha,
I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die…) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
Johannesburg Jay
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Sacha
Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer.
On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:
[quote]
Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips.
| Quote: | | Raymond JulianKettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine |
On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
[quote]
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> (wschertz(at)comcast.net)
Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
Bill Schertz
--
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