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Closing the fuselage

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mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:25 pm Post subject: Closing the fuselage

Hi Bob

  

 I see in the foto's of your exhaust that you have  closed the fuselage. How far have you progressed on the interior?

  

 I am holding off closing the fusealge till I have  done as much as possible on the interior and I'm busy with the wiring  now,

 would hate to have done it with the fuselage closed  but not closing the fuselage delays other items. Always a difficult  compromise

  

 Good luck

  

 Mike

 [quote]   ---

Robert Reed

Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth

Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:15 pm Post subject: Closing the fuselage

Mike,

 

This is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations.  Most of my interior is in the final, awaiting installation stage with the key exception of the electrical systems.  I had been planning to do all the electrical possible before closing out the top but decided I would be better off to concentrate on completing ALL the glass and epoxy work during the summer and fall while I had warm weather.  Primary reason being that I wanted to be ready to prime and paint as soon as cool wet weather allows it.  A second reason being there is no way I want to be working inside the fuselage when it is 90 to 100 degrees.  I can work the electrical in cool weather a lot easier than  hot.

 

I have installed hard mounting points for most of the interior plumbing and electrical.  The brake lines are all in as well.  I will be mounting the two batteries (Oddessy PC680) on either side of the center console with the master, starter, and crossover relays in the same area under the front seats.  The voltage regulators will also be in the same area.  It makes use of a dead area that can't really be used for anything else since I am using adjustable seats and rails.  

 

Oh, I have also done paper patterns for all of the upholstry and the seats have all been done.

 

Bob

     

   From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca>

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 6:25 PM

 Subject: Closing the fuselage

  

 

 ï»¿         Hi Bob

  

 I see in the foto's of your exhaust that you have  closed the fuselage. How far have you progressed on the interior?

  

 I am holding off closing the fusealge till I have  done as much as possible on the interior and I'm busy with the wiring  now,

 would hate to have done it with the fuselage closed  but not closing the fuselage delays other items. Always a difficult  compromise

  

 Good luck

  

 Mike

 [quote]   ---

mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:15 pm Post subject: Closing the fuselage

Bob,

  

 Thanks for your input, I have exactly the opposite  problem to you, I wanted to get the painting done before the wet and cold set in  but I also wanted to finish the inside of the fuselage as much as possible.  Achieved neither during summer.

  

 Will post foto's of my progress soon.

  

 Keep well

  

 Mike

 [quote]   ---

Robert Reed

Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth

Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:35 am Post subject: Closing the fuselage

Mike,

 

I learned my lesson in May when I tried painting the flaps, elevator and ailerons.  The paint is a water based polymer that was setting up before it had a chance to flow out and resulted in brush marks needing to be sanded.  The recommendation is 70 degrees or less with 60% or more humidity.  The coating is so hard that sanding it is like sanding clear epoxy.  I will have no choice but to use the roll and tip with that paint for the fuselage.  There is no paint shop on the field and we are not allowed to spray in the "T" hangars for some reason.  The ONLY time of the year when those requirements might be met inside my hangar will be between late November and first of March.  I want to have everything ready for the  first cool wet day that will allow me to apply at least a half way decent paint job.  Still hoping that I can get the wings and all other removable parts spray painted by a professional though.

 

Looking forward to seeing those progress photos,  

 

Bob

 

 

 

     

   From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca>

 To:  kis-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 11:15 PM

 Subject: Re: Closing the fuselage

  

 

 ï»¿       Bob,

  

 Thanks for your input, I have exactly the opposite  problem to you, I wanted to get the painting done before the wet and cold set in  but I also wanted to finish the inside of the fuselage as much as possible.  Achieved neither during summer.

  

 Will post foto's of my progress soon.

  

 Keep well

  

 Mike

 [quote]   ---

jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglo
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:55 pm Post subject: Closing the fuselage

Bob,

I had a very bad experience using water based polymer paint. 

The damn paint was running down even in hot and dry Oklahoma. It required to paint surfaces in a close to horizontal arrangement. 

I cant imagine how to use this paint in humid Eastern and South states

I selected it because it was heavily advertised as non toxic specially developed for home builders

Somehow I managed to get it painted.  

The real problem started when   the plane was exposed to the  first rain.  A short light  rain and the  whole surface developed sticking out bubbles filled with water.

I had to grind and peel off the whole paint

I painted the whole thing again with a regular automotive paint with organic isocyanate as a hardener. The spray of this paint is toxic but it has low vapor pressure so you do not have to worry about vapor poisoning. I made a wind tunnel of plastic sheets and a large blower to direct the flow of spray particles out of the painting room. I painted in a gas mask protecting my eyes and lungs.

The automotive paint worked as a charm. No comparison with the troubles caused by the other  crappy stuff.

Do not buy false argument that automotive paint is not good for airplanes! These argument were spread by producers of the useless water based paint.

I forgot the name of the company that sold me that water based paint, they are not worth remembering anyway. 

It was something starting with POLY....   and they specialized in home build plane market, mostly fabric for the wings. 

Jerzy

        From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net>

 To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com" <kis-list(at)matronics.com> 

 Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 11:35 AM

 Subject: Re: Closing the fuselage

  

 

Mike,

 

I learned my lesson in May when I tried painting the flaps, elevator and ailerons.  The paint is a water based polymer that was setting up before it had a chance to flow out and resulted in brush marks needing to be sanded.  The recommendation is 70 degrees or less with  60% or more humidity.  The coating is so hard that sanding it is like sanding clear epoxy.  I will have no choice but to use the roll and tip with that paint for the fuselage.  There is no paint shop on the field and we are not allowed to spray in the "T" hangars for some reason.  The ONLY time of the year when those requirements might be met inside my hangar will be between late November and first of March.  I want to have everything ready for the  first cool wet day that will allow me to apply at least a half way decent paint job.  Still hoping that I can get the wings and all other removable parts spray painted by a professional though.

 

Looking forward to seeing those progress photos,  

 

Bob

 

 

 

     

   From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca>

 To:  kis-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 11:15 PM

 Subject: Re: Closing the fuselage

  

 

 ï»¿       Bob,

  

 Thanks for your input, I have exactly the opposite  problem to you, I wanted to get the painting done before the wet and cold set in  but I also wanted to finish the inside of the fuselage as much as possible.  Achieved neither during summer.

  

 Will post foto's of my progress soon.

  

 Keep well

  

 Mike

 [quote]   ---

Robert Reed

Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth

Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:08 pm Post subject: Closing the fuselage

You are talking about PolyFiber paint and I had researched that paint before.  Everything I could find out about their paint for Fiberglass was indicating problems.  They seem to have a better record for fabric based aircraft.

 

What I am using is the System Three WR-LPU paint that is sold primarily for marine coatings so I am not too concerned about rain.  The problem for me wasn't running but setting up too fast to flow out correctly.  That being said, I would have preferred an auto based coating if I could have done so.  I have contacted three local AUTO paint shops to see if they would do the spraying of the wings and surprise, two of the three are using water based paints for cars.  (Mostly due to environmental  rules.)

 

Bob

     

   From: jerzy krasinski <jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net>

 To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com" <kis-list(at)matronics.com> 

 Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 5:54 PM

 Subject: Re: KIS-List: Closing the fuselage

  

 

 Bob,

I had a very bad experience using water based polymer paint. 

The damn paint was running down even in hot and dry Oklahoma. It required to paint surfaces in a close to horizontal arrangement. 

I cant imagine how to use this paint in humid Eastern and South states

I selected it because it was heavily advertised as non toxic specially developed for home builders

Somehow I managed to get it painted.  

The real problem started when   the plane was exposed to the  first rain.  A short light  rain and the  whole surface developed sticking out bubbles filled with water.

I had to grind and peel off the whole paint

I painted the whole thing again with a regular automotive paint with organic isocyanate as a hardener. The spray of this paint is toxic but it has low vapor pressure so you do not have to worry about vapor poisoning. I made a wind tunnel of plastic sheets and a large blower to direct the flow of spray particles out of the painting room. I painted in a gas mask protecting my eyes and lungs.

The automotive paint worked as a charm. No comparison with the troubles caused by the other  crappy stuff.

Do not buy false argument that automotive paint is not good for airplanes! These argument were spread by producers of the useless water based paint.

I forgot the name of the company that sold me that water based paint, they are not worth remembering anyway. 

It was something starting with POLY....   and they specialized in home build plane market, mostly fabric for the wings. 

Jerzy

     

   From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net>

 To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com" <kis-list(at)matronics.com> 

 Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 11:35 AM

 Subject: Re: Closing the fuselage

  

 

Mike,

 

I learned my lesson in May when I tried painting the flaps, elevator and ailerons.  The paint is a  water based polymer that was setting up before it had a chance to flow out and resulted in brush marks needing to be sanded.  The recommendation is 70 degrees or less with  60% or more humidity.  The coating is so hard that sanding it is like sanding clear epoxy.  I will have no choice but to use the roll and tip with that paint for the fuselage.  There is no paint shop on the field and we are not allowed to spray in the "T" hangars for some reason.  The ONLY time of the year when those requirements might be met inside my hangar will be between late November and first of March.  I want to have everything ready for the  first cool wet day that will allow me to apply at least a half way decent paint job.  Still hoping that I can get the wings and all other removable parts spray painted by a professional though.

 

Looking forward to seeing those progress photos,  

 

Bob

 

 

 

     

   From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca>

 To:  kis-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 11:15 PM

 Subject: Re: Closing the fuselage

  

 

 ï»¿       Bob,

  

 Thanks for your input, I have exactly the opposite  problem to you, I wanted to get the painting done before the wet and cold set in  but I also wanted to finish the inside of the fuselage as much as possible.  Achieved neither during summer.

  

 Will post foto's of my progress soon.

  

 Keep well

  

 Mike

 [quote]   ---

sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:33 pm Post subject: Closing the fuselage

I have to agree.  I started with the poly... water based primer.  Bg waste of time and money.   

I highly recommend going to the local auto body/paint supply store and telling them you need a

high build sandable primer and paint the you can color sand and buff out.  If you are using a roller

throw it away and buy the $15 hvlp spray gun from harbor frieght.   

I primer and painted my airplane in pieces outside.  With the hvlp gun the overspray is pretty minmal.

Primer is easy, just hose it down and block it down.

Dont worry about a little dirt or dust in the paint and dont worry about the initial surface finish.

Spray a thin paint coat, let it cure for 15 minutes then a medium coat, 15 minutes, another medium coat, 

Let it dry for a few days and color sand it with 

1000 grit, then 2000 grit, then buff it with a $40 harbor frieght paint buffer.  Get some buffing pads 

and buffing compound from the auto paint supply place.  

I get compliments on the paint finish of my airplane  all the time.  It is amazing what a little sanding 

and buffing can do.  

 Sorry if this comes off as a little abrasive, but following this advise would have saved me hundreds 

of hours.

Scott



On Sep 23, 2013, at 12:54 PM, jerzy krasinski <jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net (jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:



[quote]Bob,

I had a very bad experience using water based polymer paint. 

The damn paint was running down even in hot and dry Oklahoma. It required to paint surfaces in a close to horizontal arrangement. 

I cant imagine how to use this paint in humid Eastern and South states

I selected it because it was heavily advertised as non toxic specially developed for home builders

Somehow I managed to get it painted.  

The real problem started when   the plane was exposed to the  first rain.  A short light  rain and the  whole surface developed sticking out bubbles filled with water.

I had to grind and peel off the whole paint

I painted the whole thing again with a regular automotive paint with organic isocyanate as a hardener. The spray of this paint is toxic but it has low vapor pressure so you do not have to worry about vapor poisoning. I made a wind tunnel of plastic sheets and a large blower to direct the flow of spray particles out of the painting room. I painted in a gas mask protecting my eyes and lungs.

The automotive paint worked as a charm. No comparison with the troubles caused by the other  crappy stuff.

Do not buy false argument that automotive paint is not good for airplanes! These argument were spread by producers of the useless water based paint.

I forgot the name of the company that sold me that water based paint, they are not worth remembering anyway. 

It was something starting with POLY....   and they specialized in home build plane market, mostly fabric for the wings. 

Jerzy

        From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)>

 To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)" <kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)> 

 Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 11:35 AM

 Subject: Re: Closing the fuselage

  

 

Mike,

 

I learned my lesson in May when I tried painting the flaps, elevator and ailerons.  The paint is a water based polymer that was setting up before it had a chance to flow out and resulted in brush marks needing to be sanded.  The recommendation is 70 degrees or less with  60% or more humidity.  The coating is so hard that sanding it is like sanding clear epoxy.  I will have no choice but to use the roll and tip with that paint for the fuselage.  There is no paint shop on the field and we are not allowed to spray in the "T" hangars for some reason.  The ONLY time of the year when those requirements might be met inside my hangar will be between late November and first of March.  I want to have everything ready for the  first cool wet day that will allow me to apply at least a half way decent paint job.  Still hoping that I can get the wings and all other removable parts spray painted by a professional though.

 

Looking forward to seeing those progress photos,  

 

Bob

 

 

 

     

   From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca (mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca)>

 To:  kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 11:15 PM

 Subject: Re: Closing the fuselage

  

 

 ï»¿       Bob,

  

 Thanks for your input, I have exactly the opposite  problem to you, I wanted to get the painting done before the wet and cold set in  but I also wanted to finish the inside of the fuselage as much as possible.  Achieved neither during summer.

  

 Will post foto's of my progress soon.

  

 Keep well

  

 Mike

 [quote]   ---

Robert Reed

Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:52 am Post subject: Closing the fuselage

Yes Scott, it came off as very abrasive as in Sand, sand, and more sanding abrasive.  That is actually the exact plan that I was following.  The recommended process was three coats of color followed by color sanding with 600 grit and followed by two to three coats of clear coat that depending on desired finish could be sanded with the 1000 and 2000 grit followed with a buff out.  I was able to do the rudder early one morning after leaving the A/C on with a humidifier going and wetting down the floor.  The color coats came out looking pretty darn good and would have only required the 600 grit sanding before clear gloss.  The flaps, ailerons, and elevators were much less successful and you can see definite brush marks that are too pronounce to sand out without another color coat.  I tried  the HVLP spray and didn't have any luck with it.  Could not keep a wet edge and it ended up running.  

 

I may try spraying again after the weather cools some.  Thinking about getting one of those portable garage covers to use and paint outside as you suggested if I can't find a shop to do the spraying for me.

 

One way or the other it will get done.

 

Bob

     

   From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com>

 To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com" <kis-list(at)matronics.com> 

 Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 6:33 PM

 Subject: Re: Closing the fuselage

  

 

 I have to agree.  I started with the poly... water based primer.  Bg waste of time and money.   

I highly recommend going to the local auto body/paint supply store and telling them you need a

high build sandable primer and paint the you can color sand and buff out.  If you are using a roller

throw it away and buy the $15 hvlp spray gun from harbor frieght.   

I primer and painted my airplane in pieces outside.  With the hvlp gun the overspray is pretty minmal.

Primer is easy, just hose it down and block it down.

Dont worry about a little dirt or dust in the paint and dont worry about the initial surface finish.

Spray a thin paint coat, let it cure for 15 minutes then a medium coat, 15 minutes, another medium coat, 

Let it dry for a few  days and color sand it with 

1000 grit, then 2000 grit, then buff it with a $40 harbor frieght paint buffer.  Get some buffing pads 

and buffing compound from the auto paint supply place.  

I get compliments on the paint finish of my airplane  all the time.  It is amazing what a little sanding 

and buffing can do.  

 Sorry if this comes off as a little abrasive, but following this advise would have saved me hundreds 

of hours.

Scott



On Sep 23, 2013, at 12:54 PM, jerzy krasinski <jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net (jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:



[quote]Bob,

I had a very bad experience using water based polymer paint. 

The damn paint was running down even in hot and dry Oklahoma. It required to paint surfaces in a close to horizontal arrangement. 

I cant imagine how to use this  paint in humid Eastern and South states

I selected it because it was heavily advertised as non toxic specially developed for home builders

Somehow I managed to get it painted.  

The real problem started when   the plane was exposed to the  first rain.  A short light  rain and the  whole surface developed sticking out bubbles filled with water.

I had to grind and peel off the whole paint

I painted the whole thing again with a regular automotive paint with organic isocyanate as a hardener. The spray of this paint is toxic but it has low vapor pressure so you do not have to worry about vapor poisoning. I made a wind tunnel of plastic sheets and a large blower to direct the flow of spray particles out of the painting room. I painted in a gas mask protecting my eyes and lungs.

The automotive paint worked as a charm. No comparison with the troubles caused by the other  crappy stuff.

Do not buy false argument that automotive paint is not good for airplanes! These argument were spread by producers of the useless water based paint.

I forgot the name of the company that sold me that water based paint, they are not worth remembering anyway. 

It was something starting with POLY....   and they specialized in home build plane market, mostly fabric for the wings. 

Jerzy

     

   From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)>

 To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)" <kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)> 

 Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 11:35 AM

 Subject: Re: Closing the fuselage

  

 

Mike,

 

I learned my lesson in May when I tried painting the flaps, elevator and ailerons.  The paint is a water based polymer that was setting up before it had a chance to flow out and resulted in brush marks needing to be sanded.  The recommendation is 70 degrees or less with  60% or more humidity.  The coating is so hard that sanding it is like sanding clear epoxy.  I will have no choice but to use the roll and tip with that paint for the fuselage.  There is no paint shop on the field and we are not allowed to spray in the "T" hangars for some reason.  The ONLY time of the year when those requirements might be met inside my hangar will be between late November and first of March.  I want to have everything ready for the  first cool wet day that will allow me to apply at least a half way decent paint job.  Still hoping that I can get the wings and all other removable parts spray painted by a professional though.

 

Looking forward to seeing those progress photos,  

 

Bob

 

 

 

     

   From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca (mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca)>

 To:  kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 11:15 PM

 Subject: Re: Closing the fuselage

  

 

 ï»¿       Bob,

  

 Thanks for your input, I have exactly the opposite  problem to you, I wanted to get the painting done before the wet and cold set in  but I also wanted to finish the inside of the fuselage as much as possible.  Achieved neither during summer.

  

 Will post foto's of my progress soon.

  

 Keep well

  

 Mike

 [quote]   ---

sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:15 am Post subject: Closing the fuselage

I would try the spray gun again.  Dont worry about the surface finish or getting it to flow out.  It will run.  

Do 4-5 think coats and wait 10-15 minutes between coats.

Scott





On Sep 24, 2013, at 4:52 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:



[quote]Yes Scott, it came off as very abrasive as in Sand, sand, and more sanding abrasive.  That is actually the exact plan that I was following.  The recommended process was three coats of color followed by color sanding with 600 grit and followed by two to three coats of clear coat that depending on desired finish could be sanded with the 1000 and 2000 grit followed with a buff out.  I was able to do the rudder early one morning after leaving the A/C on with a humidifier going and wetting down the floor.  The color coats came out looking pretty darn good and would have only required the 600 grit sanding before clear gloss.  The flaps, ailerons, and elevators were much less successful and you can see definite brush marks that are too pronounce to sand out without another color coat.  I tried  the HVLP spray and didn't have any luck with it.  Could not keep a wet edge and it ended up running.  

 

I may try spraying again after the weather cools some.  Thinking about getting one of those portable garage covers to use and paint outside as you suggested if I can't find a shop to do the spraying for me.

 

One way or the other it will get done.

 

Bob

     

   From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com (sstearns2(at)yahoo.com)>

 To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)" <kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)> 

 Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 6:33 PM

 Subject: Re: Closing the fuselage

  

 

 I have to agree.  I started with the poly... water based primer.  Bg waste of time and money.   

I highly recommend going to the local auto body/paint supply store and telling them you need a

high build sandable primer and paint the you can color sand and buff out.  If you are using a roller

throw it away and buy the $15 hvlp spray gun from harbor frieght.   

I primer and painted my airplane in pieces outside.  With the hvlp gun the overspray is pretty minmal.

Primer is easy, just hose it down and block it down.

Dont worry about a little dirt or dust in the paint and dont worry about the initial surface finish.

Spray a thin paint coat, let it cure for 15 minutes then a medium coat, 15 minutes, another medium coat, 

Let it dry for a few  days and color sand it with 

1000 grit, then 2000 grit, then buff it with a $40 harbor frieght paint buffer.  Get some buffing pads 

and buffing compound from the auto paint supply place.  

I get compliments on the paint finish of my airplane  all the time.  It is amazing what a little sanding 

and buffing can do.  

 Sorry if this comes off as a little abrasive, but following this advise would have saved me hundreds 

of hours.

Scott



On Sep 23, 2013, at 12:54 PM, jerzy krasinski <jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net (jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:



[quote]Bob,

I had a very bad experience using water based polymer paint. 

The damn paint was running down even in hot and dry Oklahoma. It required to paint surfaces in a close to horizontal arrangement. 

I cant imagine how to use this  paint in humid Eastern and South states

I selected it because it was heavily advertised as non toxic specially developed for home builders

Somehow I managed to get it painted.  

The real problem started when   the plane was exposed to the  first rain.  A short light  rain and the  whole surface developed sticking out bubbles filled with water.

I had to grind and peel off the whole paint

I painted the whole thing again with a regular automotive paint with organic isocyanate as a hardener. The spray of this paint is toxic but it has low vapor pressure so you do not have to worry about vapor poisoning. I made a wind tunnel of plastic sheets and a large blower to direct the flow of spray particles out of the painting room. I painted in a gas mask protecting my eyes and lungs.

The automotive paint worked as a charm. No comparison with the troubles caused by the other  crappy stuff.

Do not buy false argument that automotive paint is not good for airplanes! These argument were spread by producers of the useless water based paint.

I forgot the name of the company that sold me that water based paint, they are not worth remembering anyway. 

It was something starting with POLY....   and they specialized in home build plane market, mostly fabric for the wings. 

Jerzy

     

   From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)>

 To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)" <kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)> 

 Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 11:35 AM

 Subject: Re: Closing the fuselage

  

 

Mike,

 

I learned my lesson in May when I tried painting the flaps, elevator and ailerons.  The paint is a water based polymer that was setting up before it had a chance to flow out and resulted in brush marks needing to be sanded.  The recommendation is 70 degrees or less with  60% or more humidity.  The coating is so hard that sanding it is like sanding clear epoxy.  I will have no choice but to use the roll and tip with that paint for the fuselage.  There is no paint shop on the field and we are not allowed to spray in the "T" hangars for some reason.  The ONLY time of the year when those requirements might be met inside my hangar will be between late November and first of March.  I want to have everything ready for the  first cool wet day that will allow me to apply at least a half way decent paint job.  Still hoping that I can get the wings and all other removable parts spray painted by a professional though.

 

Looking forward to seeing those progress photos,  

 

Bob

 

 

 

     

   From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca (mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca)>

 To:  kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 11:15 PM

 Subject: Re: Closing the fuselage

  

 

 ï»¿       Bob,

  

 Thanks for your input, I have exactly the opposite  problem to you, I wanted to get the painting done before the wet and cold set in  but I also wanted to finish the inside of the fuselage as much as possible.  Achieved neither during summer.

  

 Will post foto's of my progress soon.

  

 Keep well

  

 Mike

 [quote]   ---

Robert Reed

Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:16 pm Post subject: Closing the fuselage

OK but if it runs down like it did the last time I tried the gun I am going to call on you to help sand it off and start over again.  That's what I did with the wing the last time, sanded it all off, re-primed and sanded again prepping for color coat.  One more time and I may use a chainsaw for the sanding.  <BG>

 

Seriously, I was going to try some small pieces with the sprayer to try and build experience and confidence but of all the things I have done on the plane, all of the redo's, that was probably the worst and most discouraging.  

 

Bob

     

   From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com>

 To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com" <kis-list(at)matronics.com> 

 Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 1:15 PM

 Subject: Re: Closing the fuselage

  

 

I would try the spray gun again.  Dont worry about the surface finish or getting it to flow out.  It will run.  

Do 4-5 think coats and wait 10-15 minutes between  coats.

Scott





On Sep 24, 2013, at 4:52 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:



[quote]Yes Scott, it came off as very abrasive as in Sand, sand, and more sanding abrasive.  That is actually the exact plan that I was following.  The recommended process was three coats of color followed by color sanding with 600 grit and followed by two to three coats of clear coat that depending on desired finish could be sanded with the 1000 and 2000 grit followed with a buff out.  I was able to do the rudder early one morning after leaving the A/C on with a humidifier going and wetting down the  floor.  The color coats came out looking pretty darn good and would have only required the 600 grit sanding before clear gloss.  The flaps, ailerons, and elevators were much less successful and you can see definite brush marks that are too pronounce to sand out without another color coat.  I tried  the HVLP spray and didn't have any luck with it.  Could not keep a wet edge and it ended up running.  

 

I may try spraying again after the weather cools some.  Thinking about getting one of those portable garage covers to use and paint outside as you suggested if I can't find a shop to do the spraying for me.

 

One way or the other it will get done.

 

Bob

     

   From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com (sstearns2(at)yahoo.com)>

 To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)" <kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)> 

 Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 6:33 PM

 Subject: Re: Closing the fuselage

  

 

 I have to agree.  I started with the poly... water based primer.  Bg waste of time and money.   

I highly recommend going to the local auto body/paint supply store and telling them you need a

high build sandable primer and paint the you can color sand and buff out.  If you are using a roller

throw it away and buy the $15 hvlp spray gun from harbor frieght.   

I primer and painted my airplane in pieces outside.  With the hvlp gun the overspray is pretty minmal.

Primer is easy, just hose it down and block it down.

Dont worry about a little dirt or dust in the paint and dont worry about the initial surface finish.

Spray a thin paint coat, let it cure for 15 minutes then a medium coat, 15 minutes, another medium coat, 

Let it dry for a few  days and color sand it with 

1000 grit, then 2000 grit, then buff it with a $40 harbor frieght paint buffer.  Get some buffing pads 

and buffing compound from the auto paint supply place.  

I get compliments on the paint finish of my airplane  all the time.  It is amazing what a little sanding 

and buffing can do.  

 Sorry if this comes off as a little abrasive, but following this advise would have saved me hundreds 

of hours.

Scott



On Sep 23, 2013, at 12:54 PM, jerzy krasinski <jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net (jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:



[quote]Bob,

I had a very bad experience using water based polymer paint. 

The damn paint was running down even in hot and dry Oklahoma. It required to paint surfaces in a close to horizontal arrangement. 

I cant imagine how to use this  paint in humid Eastern and South states

I selected it because it was heavily advertised as non toxic specially developed for home builders

Somehow I managed to get it painted.  

The real problem started when   the plane was exposed to the  first rain.  A short light  rain and the  whole surface developed sticking out bubbles filled with water.

I had to grind and peel off the whole paint

I painted the whole thing again with a regular automotive paint with organic isocyanate as a hardener. The spray of this paint is toxic but it has low vapor pressure so you do not have to worry about vapor poisoning. I made a wind tunnel of plastic sheets and a large blower to direct the flow of spray particles out of the painting room. I painted in a gas mask protecting my eyes and lungs.

The automotive paint worked as a charm. No comparison with the troubles caused by the other  crappy  stuff.

Do not buy false argument that automotive paint is not good for airplanes! These argument were spread by producers of the useless water based paint.

I forgot the name of the company that sold me that water based paint, they are not worth remembering anyway. 

It was something starting with POLY...   and they specialized in home build plane market, mostly fabric for the wings. 

Jerzy

     

   From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)>

 To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)" <kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)> 

 Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 11:35 AM

 Subject: Re: Closing the fuselage

  

 

Mike,

 

I learned my lesson in May when I tried painting the flaps, elevator and ailerons.  The paint is a water based polymer that was setting up before it had a chance to flow out and resulted in brush marks needing to be sanded.  The recommendation is 70 degrees or less with  60% or more humidity.  The coating is so hard that sanding it is like sanding clear epoxy.  I will have no choice but to use the roll and tip with that paint for the fuselage.  There is no paint shop on the field and we are not allowed to spray in the "T" hangars for some reason.  The ONLY time of the year when those requirements might be met inside my hangar will be between late November and first of March.  I want to have everything ready for the  first cool wet day that will allow me to apply at least a half way decent paint job.  Still hoping that I can get the wings and all other removable parts spray painted by a professional though.

 

Looking forward to seeing those progress photos,  

 

Bob

 

 

 

     

   From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca (mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca)>

 To:  kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 11:15 PM

 Subject: Re: Closing the fuselage

  

 

 ï»¿       Bob,

  

 Thanks for your input, I have exactly the opposite  problem to you, I wanted to get the painting done before the wet and cold set in  but I also wanted to finish the inside of the fuselage as much as possible.  Achieved neither during summer.

  

 Will post foto's of my progress soon.

  

 Keep well

  

 Mike

 [quote]   ---

jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglo
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:55 pm Post subject: Closing the fuselage

I was talking with a professional painter and his opinion was that the paint should not be ground/polished.

He claimed that once you cut the polymer chains of the paint and create gazilions of microcracks  in the paint layer, you strongly reduce its resistance to air and weather.

I have seen his painting results and they looked GREAT.

The only problem with his approach is that one needs to have a lot of experience and a steady hand to get it right 



After grinding off the damn POLY......  water based paint I had enough of grinding, so I left the final automotive paint as it was after spraying.

Its not an exhibition quality but it looks ok. I preferred flying rather than  grinding.

Jerzy

        From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net>

 To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com" <kis-list(at)matronics.com> 

 Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 9:52 AM

 Subject: Re: Closing the fuselage

  

 

Yes Scott, it came off as very abrasive as in Sand, sand, and more sanding abrasive.  That is actually the exact plan that I was following.  The recommended process was three coats of color followed by color sanding with 600 grit and followed by two to three coats of clear coat that depending on desired finish could be sanded with the 1000 and 2000 grit followed with a buff out.  I was able to do the rudder early one morning after leaving the A/C on with a humidifier going and wetting down the floor.  The color coats came out looking pretty darn good and would have only required the 600 grit sanding before clear  gloss.  The flaps, ailerons, and elevators were much less successful and you can see definite brush marks that are too pronounce to sand out without another color coat.  I tried  the HVLP spray and didn't have any luck with it.  Could not keep a wet edge and it ended up running.  

 

I may try spraying again after the weather cools some.  Thinking about getting one of those portable garage covers to use and paint outside as you suggested if I can't find a shop to do the spraying for me.

 

One way or the other it will get done.

 

Bob

     

   From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com>

 To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com" <kis-list(at)matronics.com> 

 Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 6:33 PM

 Subject: Re: Closing the fuselage

  

 

 I have to agree.  I started with the poly... water based primer.  Bg waste of time and money.   

I highly recommend going to the local auto body/paint supply store and telling them you need a

high build sandable primer and paint the you can color sand and buff out.  If you are using a roller

throw it away and buy the $15 hvlp spray gun from harbor frieght.   

I primer and painted my airplane in pieces outside.  With the hvlp gun the overspray is pretty minmal.

Primer is easy, just hose it down and block it down.

Dont worry about a little dirt or dust in the paint and dont worry about the initial surface finish.

Spray a thin paint coat, let it cure for 15 minutes then a medium coat, 15 minutes, another medium coat, 

Let it dry for a few  days and color sand it with 

1000 grit, then 2000 grit, then buff it with a $40 harbor frieght paint buffer.  Get some buffing pads 

and buffing compound from the auto paint supply place.  

I get compliments on the paint finish of my airplane  all the time.  It is amazing what a little sanding 

and buffing can do.  

 Sorry if this comes off as a little abrasive, but following this advise would have saved me hundreds 

of hours.

Scott



On Sep 23, 2013, at 12:54 PM, jerzy krasinski <jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net (jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:



[quote]Bob,

I had a very bad experience using water based polymer paint. 

The damn paint was running down even in hot and dry Oklahoma. It required to paint surfaces in a close to horizontal arrangement. 

I cant imagine how to use this  paint in humid Eastern and South states

I selected it because it was heavily advertised as non toxic specially developed for home builders

Somehow I managed to get it painted.  

The real problem started when   the plane was exposed to the  first rain.  A short light  rain and the  whole surface developed sticking out bubbles filled with water.

I had to grind and peel off the whole paint

I painted the whole thing again with a regular automotive paint with organic isocyanate as a hardener. The spray of this paint is toxic but it has low vapor pressure so you do not have to worry about vapor poisoning. I made a wind tunnel of plastic sheets and a large blower to direct the flow of spray particles out of the painting room. I painted in a gas mask protecting my eyes and lungs.

The automotive paint worked as a charm. No comparison with the troubles caused by the other  crappy stuff.

Do not buy false argument that automotive paint is not good for airplanes! These argument were spread by producers of the useless water based paint.

I forgot the name of the company that sold me that water based paint, they are not worth remembering anyway. 

It was something starting with POLY....   and they specialized in home build plane market, mostly fabric for the wings. 

Jerzy

     

   From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)>

 To: "kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)" <kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)> 

 Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 11:35 AM

 Subject: Re: Closing the fuselage

  

 

Mike,

 

I learned my lesson in May when I tried painting the flaps, elevator and ailerons.  The paint is a water based polymer that was setting up before it had a chance to flow out and resulted in brush marks needing to be sanded.  The recommendation is 70 degrees or less with  60% or more humidity.  The coating is so hard that sanding it is like sanding clear epoxy.  I will have no choice but to use the roll and tip with that paint for the fuselage.  There is no paint shop on the field and we are not allowed to spray in the "T" hangars for some reason.  The ONLY time of the year when those requirements might be met inside my hangar will be between late November and first of March.  I want to have everything ready for the  first cool wet day that will allow me to apply at least a half way decent paint job.  Still hoping that I can get the wings and all other removable parts spray painted by a professional though.

 

Looking forward to seeing those progress photos,  

 

Bob

 

 

 

     

   From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca (mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca)>

 To:  kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 11:15 PM

 Subject: Re: Closing the fuselage

  

 

 ï»¿       Bob,

  

 Thanks for your input, I have exactly the opposite  problem to you, I wanted to get the painting done before the wet and cold set in  but I also wanted to finish the inside of the fuselage as much as possible.  Achieved neither during summer.

  

 Will post foto's of my progress soon.

  

 Keep well

  

 Mike

 [quote]   ---

jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglo
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:08 pm Post subject: Closing the fuselage

Bob,

Talking about closing the fuselage, you can save yourself a lot of troubles attaching ~3/4" thin wall plastic ( thin wall  PVC) conduit along the fuselage before closing.

The conduit should start somewhere within your reach behind the rear seat and end  go to  the end of the fuselage, preferably within your reach through the rear  opening.

A side of the fuselage seems to be better than the bottom. This way it would not interfere with the elevator controls.

Having the conduit attached you can close the fuselage.

It is easy to pull a number of necessary wires through the conduit, and you would not have to worry how to attach  wires in hard to reach places.

Jerzy

  

 [quote][b]

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