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Horizontal Tail Span
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fasilpereira

Joined: 17 Jul 2011
Posts: 86
Location: Brazil

Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:33 pm Post subject: Horizontal Tail Span

I've just noticed that the Kit that I've bought from Ted has the old horizontal tail, with span of 8ft 9in.

Does anybody knows what has drived the increase on the horizontal tail?

For those that have flown both version (if there is anybody that had the opportunity), does it makes any difference?

I'm thinking if it is worth to increase my aircraft tail span, since I'm still on the initial building process....

Thanks,



Fabricio

_________________
Fabricio Pereira
Engineer / Pilot

mantafs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:23 pm Post subject: Horizontal Tail Span

Hello Fabricio,



I think all of the TR-4's have a 8'9" span horizontal tail.  What some people do and I highly recommend is increasing the cord on the elevator.  This is critical on the TR-1 and important on the TR-4.



Mark

--

sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:46 pm Post subject: Horizontal Tail Span

There were two sizes of horizontal tail?    I never heard that there was two sizes of tail.  Maybe you are thinking of the elevator extension on the two seat KIS?



Scott



On Sep 22, 2013, at 11:33 AM, "fasilpereira" <fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I've just noticed that the Kit that I've bought from Ted has the old horizontal tail, with span of 8ft 9in.

 Does anybody knows what has drived the increase on the horizontal tail?

 For those that have flown both version (if there is anybody that had the opportunity), does it makes any difference?

 I'm thinking if it is worth to increase my aircraft tail span, since I'm still on the initial building process....

 Thanks,

 

 Fabricio

 

 --------

 Fabricio Pereira

 Engineer / Pilot

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409005#409005

fasilpereira

Joined: 17 Jul 2011
Posts: 86
Location: Brazil

Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:27 am Post subject: Re: Horizontal Tail Span

I have an old TR-4 specs file from Contact Magazine where the horizontal tail span is listed at 8'9". Galin's Aircraft Manual also has 8'9".



But if you take a look at the KIS TR-4 sales Brochure, the horizontal tail span is 10'3" (see attatched file). On the ZU-BKK aircrafy manual also has the same span for the horizontal tail.



That's what I though that the tail span was increased during the development of the kits.



Best,



Fabricio

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_________________
Fabricio Pereira
Engineer / Pilot

galinhdz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:02 am Post subject: Horizontal Tail Span

I recommend you increase the tail span if possible. The smaller tail runs out of elevator authority just before you land and you can't keep the nose wheel up very long. The landings wind up being a little hard on the nose gear. 



Since I have the smaller tail, I added vortex generators to the bottom of the elevator. Now on approach I don't run out of elevator authority and I can keep the nose wheel off the runway for quite a while after landing. The landings are significantly softer on the nose wheel because of this. 



Galin



On Monday, September 23, 2013, fasilpereira  wrote:

[quote]--> KIS-List message posted by: "fasilpereira" <[url=javascript:;]fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com[/url]>

  

 I have an old TR-4 specs file from Contact Magazine where the horizontal tail span is listed at 8'9". Galin's Aircraft Manual also has 8'9".

 

 But if you take a look at the KIS TR-4 sales Brochure, the horizontal tail span is 10'3" (see attatched file). On the ZU-BKK aircrafy manual also has the same span for the horizontal tail.

 

 That's what I though that the tail span was increased during the development of the kits.

 

 Best,

 

 Fabricio

 

 --------

 Fabricio Pereira

 Engineer / Pilot

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409031#409031

 

 

 

 

 Attachments:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/kis_tr4_sales_brochure_923.jpg

 

 

 

 

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mantafs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:42 am Post subject: Horizontal Tail Span

Hi Galin,



Did your elevator run out of authority while in the air or after touch down?  If it was only after touch down then the problem could be the main gear placement and not the elevator. From my TR-4 time I found the elevator had sufficient authority to stall the wing in any configuration except very far forward CG and light loading.  Even at very far forward CG there was sufficient authority to fly with minimum airspeed and be just mushing along.  Of course not all builds are the same so your aircraft could be different.



What did happen on the factory TR-4 was at touch down the center of "lift" moved aft from the lift center of the wing to the main gear contact.  This creates a strong nose down pitching moment and the stock elevator did not have sufficient authority to keep the nose off the ground.  But instead of increasing the elevator authority to more than is needed in the air why not correct the placement of the main gear that is causing the nose down pitching moment after touchdown.



Another problem the TR-4 has are the control forces.  The ailerons are too heavy and the elevator is too light. Increasing the cord of the elevator helps increase the stick force per G along with adding elevator authority if needed.



When I was doing the engineering for Tri-R and Liaoning Pacific Aviation for certification of the TR-4 in China these 2 changes were part of those required for part 23. The modified TR-4 has a type certificate in China.



Mark



--

mark_trickel

Joined: 13 Dec 2011
Posts: 101
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:46 am Post subject: Re: Horizontal Tail Span

Galin and others,



I designed, set the type, and printed the sales brochures Richard used to market KIS. The information shown in the brochure is not accurate and I apologize for that. The TR-4 specifications shown were given to me by Richard over the phone days before he was to leave for Oshkosh in 1994. I sent proofs to him but he missed many mistakes that were ultimately printed. It is very common in the business. In subsequent additions I originally printed a large amount of the full color covers, then I only printed small quantities of the inside pages in an attempt to catch any mistakes that were previously printed.  Unfortunately organization or lack thereof at KIS headquarters perpetuated typos in the sales brochures (and builders manuals too). There are other mistakes stated, just to name a couple of them - the horizontal stab thickness is 10% not 12% as shown; tail areas shown are probably not accurate;  the wing chord is 56â€ not 49â€. I am sorry to say but if you really want to know the real specifications they would have to be physically measured.



As for the horizontal tail, Rich told me the original TR-4 prototype N93RT had a modified tail from a Lancair IV or the ES (not sure which on it was). As for the kit version he made another set of horizontal tail molds. To the best of my knowledge that was the only horizontal tail, there was no other version. It is 8â€™ 9â€, as is the tail I physically measured on Cody Austinâ€™s TR-4.



Not all TR-4 builders made changes. Bob Andersonâ€™s TR-4 is totally stock and he has no intentions of modifying it. He has learned to fly it as is. I just received an email from Ed Hanson and he has extended the elevator by 2â€, and he also canted the main gear forward (which is noticeable in the pictures in the chapter 104 newsletter link I posted on Robert Reedâ€™s thread).  



Regards,

Mark T.

fasilpereira

Joined: 17 Jul 2011
Posts: 86
Location: Brazil

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Horizontal Tail Span

Mark (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)



If the aircraft runs out of elevator authority after toutchdown, the best solution would be moving the main gear forward as you suggest or maybe canting the gear forward as Mark Trickel said.

One important thing to remember is that having enough elevator authority at altitude does not means that there is enough elevator during landing flare, sice the ground effect reduces the elevator authority.

That's why it important to know (although difficult to notice the difference) if the aircraft runs out of elevator authority right before or after the main gear toutchdown.



Mark Trickel,



I've noticed that there are some not accurate specs on the published documentation and that's why it is nice to have guys like you on the list.

Speaking about the wing airfoil, I've noticed that the wing airfoil on the sales brochure is the Naca 65-415. I have a Contact! paper about the cruiser, signed by Vance, with Naca 63(2)-215. Do you know what is the correct one?



Best,



Fabricio

_________________
Fabricio Pereira
Engineer / Pilot

galinhdz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:17 pm Post subject: Horizontal Tail Span

I ran out of elevator authority in the air even before landing. Once I touched down the nose came down hard. The VGs helped a LOT since I did not want to do surgery and make the elevator bigger,



On Tuesday, September 24, 2013, Mark Kettering  wrote:

 [quote]--> KIS-List message posted by: Mark Kettering <[url=javascript:;]mantafs(at)earthlink.net[/url]>

  

 Hi Galin,

 

 Did your elevator run out of authority while in the air or after touch down?  If it was only after touch down then the problem could be the main gear placement and not the elevator. From my TR-4 time I found the elevator had sufficient authority to stall the wing in any configuration except very far forward CG and light loading.  Even at very far forward CG there was sufficient authority to fly with minimum airspeed and be just mushing along.  Of course not all builds are the same so your aircraft could be different.

  

 What did happen on the factory TR-4 was at touch down the center of "lift" moved aft from the lift center of the wing to the main gear contact.  This creates a strong nose down pitching moment and the stock elevator did not have sufficient authority to keep the nose off the ground.  But instead of increasing the elevator authority to more than is needed in the air why not correct the placement of the main gear that is causing the nose down pitching moment after touchdown.

  

 Another problem the TR-4 has are the control forces.  The ailerons are too heavy and the elevator is too light. Increasing the cord of the elevator helps increase the stick force per G along with adding elevator authority if needed.

  

 When I was doing the engineering for Tri-R and Liaoning Pacific Aviation for certification of the TR-4 in China these 2 changes were part of those required for part 23. The modified TR-4 has a type certificate in China.

  

 Mark

 

 --

fasilpereira

Joined: 17 Jul 2011
Posts: 86
Location: Brazil

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: Horizontal Tail Span

Galin,



So probably there was a combination of both loss of elevator authority and the gear being to far aft.

What was your typical w&cg?

You said that the vortex generator improved your elevator authority. Did you increased your elevator chord too?



Fabricio

_________________
Fabricio Pereira
Engineer / Pilot

galinhdz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:46 pm Post subject: Horizontal Tail Span

Fabricio: I did not change the elevator in any way except add the VG's. The landing gear was moved in 2009 by Rich Trickel while we were in El Salvador so I know it was done right. This did not change the authority issue so that is when I added the VGs. Rich helped me install them and flew the airplane with me to see how they changed the handling. Even he said they did make a difference in the landing flare.

   

I take off often at max gross weight and try to keep the CG more towards the rear when possible. At landing I am normally close to the center of the CG envelope or maybe slightly forward, but not by much.

   

I hope this helps.

 

Galin



On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 6:22 PM, fasilpereira <fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com (fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

  [quote]--> KIS-List message posted by: "fasilpereira" <fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com (fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com)>

   

 Galin,

 

 So probably there was a combination of both loss of elevator authority and the gear being to far aft.

 What was your typical w&cg?

 You said that the vortex generator improved your elevator authority. Did you increased your elevator chord too?

 

 Fabricio

 

 --------

 Fabricio Pereira

 Engineer / Pilot

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409153#409153

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List

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 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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 [b]

mantafs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:15 pm Post subject: Horizontal Tail Span

Hello Galin,



How many degrees of up elevator do you have?  The way it is in the builder's manual you can not achieve the design up elevator (+25) before the push tube contacts the bottom of the horizontal internal in the tail.



Mark



--

galinhdz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:38 am Post subject: Horizontal Tail Span

I will have to check.

On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 9:15 PM, Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:

  [quote]--> KIS-List message posted by: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>

   

 

Hello Galin,

 

 How many degrees of up elevator do you have?  The way it is in the builder's manual you can not achieve the design up elevator (+25) before the push tube contacts the bottom of the horizontal internal in the tail.

   

 Mark

 

 --

mantafs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:18 am Post subject: Horizontal Tail Span

I agree that it is important to know and notice the difference if the aircraft runs out of elevator authority right before or after the main gear touch down.  I do know and it is very hard to miss the difference on a stock to the plans TR-1 and TR-4.  Yes some planes do have reduced elevator authority in ground effect but most of the time this is so small in planes of this type that it is not normally noticeable.  Some even have increased elevator authority.  The studies I have read measured aircraft delta Cm's of about 0.02 due to ground effect. Or about 1.3% to 1.5% of the Cm.  This is so small as to be in the noise in most cases and generally not even bothered with in light aircraft tail sizing calculations. That being said, every aircraft is different and this could still be an issue.



Mark



--

fasilpereira

Joined: 17 Jul 2011
Posts: 86
Location: Brazil

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Horizontal Tail Span

Mark,



I am thinking on running some simulations to have an idea of the elevator authority during flare, with and without ground effect.

Do you know what are the airfoils of the KIS Cruiser's wing and tail? Do you have a scale drawing of the aircraft top and side views?



Fabricio

_________________
Fabricio Pereira
Engineer / Pilot

sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:37 pm Post subject: Horizontal Tail Span

I think the airfoil was most likely intended to be a NACA 65-415.  The ribs and skins I have are not very close to that airfoil though.  The TR-1 airfoil is the 62-215 airfoil that is sometimes shown as the TR-4 airfoil.  Another issue is that the wing airfoil is modified by the triangle section flaps and ailerons which are much different than the airfoil and probably effect Cm significantly.  

 

The basic issue seems to be that the main wheel are too far aft.  The best solution in my mind is to just build it as a taildragger.  Lighter, lower drag, more simple, easy to add tailwheel steering in addition to differential braking, much more rear seat foot room, more firewall space, more fun to fly, but  a little more work to build.  The airplane might be more difficult to sell, but concidering early SR22s are approaching $100K, our airplanes are basically going to sell for the value of the panel/engine/prop in a few years.

 

Scott 

     

   From: fasilpereira <fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com>

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 12:28 PM

 Subject: Re: Horizontal Tail Span

  

 

--> KIS-List message posted by: "fasilpereira" <fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com (fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com)>



Mark,



I am thinking on doing some simulations to have an idea of the elevator authority during flare, with and without ground effect.

Do you know what are the airfoils of the KIS Cruiser wing and tail? Do you have a scale drawing of the aircraft top and side views?



Fabricio



--------

Fabricio Pereira

Engineer / Pilot





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409212#409========================http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List<;  [quote][b]

mantafs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:25 pm Post subject: Horizontal Tail Span

Hi Scott,



I am not sure what the TR-4 airfoil really is but both from memory of talking with Rich and Vance and every one of my documents from when I was working there in 1999 it is a 63(2)-215.  Maybe someone could plot out a template and compare it to the actual wing?



Mark

--

galinhdz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:42 pm Post subject: Horizontal Tail Span

When I was creating my airplane manual in El Salvador, whenever I finished a section Rich would edit the section and make corrections as needed. I specifically remember when he told me the NACA 65-415 (that was stated in the sales brochure and I had in the manual at the time) was wrong. He told me it was a NACA 63(2)-215 and wrote it down as a pen and ink change to that section. So as per Rich himself, this is what I have in my current aircraft manual.

   

When I get a chance I will look in my old paperwork to see if I can find the manual with his pen and ink change in it. I may still have it buried somewhere in my storage unit.



  



On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 9:24 PM, Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:

[quote]  --> KIS-List message posted by: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>

 

 

Hi Scott,

 

 I am not sure what the TR-4 airfoil really is but both from memory of talking with Rich and Vance and every one of my documents from when I was working there in 1999 it is a 63(2)-215.  Maybe someone could plot out a template and compare it to the actual wing?

   

 Mark

 

 

 --

galinhdz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:52 pm Post subject: Horizontal Tail Span

Mark;

 

I haven't been able to measure up elevator degrees (I am traveling) but I do  remember that this was another section of my manual that Rich changed from what was in the brochure (+25 / -16) to +22 / -17. So this is more than likely what I have.

   

Rich made a LOT of corrections to my manual as I was developing it.



On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 9:15 PM, Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:

  [quote]--> KIS-List message posted by: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>

   

 

Hello Galin,

 

 How many degrees of up elevator do you have?  The way it is in the builder's manual you can not achieve the design up elevator (+25) before the push tube contacts the bottom of the horizontal internal in the tail.

   

 Mark

 

 --

mark_trickel

Joined: 13 Dec 2011
Posts: 101
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:43 am Post subject: Re: Horizontal Tail Span

I think I can solve the airfoil thing once and for all. I fond this post in the achieve from Vance:

Date: 	Sep 18, 2002

From: 	Vance Jaqua <vjaqua>

Subject: 	Re: e: Aileron/flap/wingtip alignment

Both the 2plc and the cruiser use the NACA 63 sub 2 215 airfoils, with some of the cusp removed on the aft lower surface, by using flat surfaces on the flap and aileron. The 63 sets the location of the max thickness the sub 2 I think relates to the width of the drag bucket and the 2 in 2i5 establishes the design point lift coefficient and it is 15 percent thick. Use the upper surface for alignment with a template for setting incidence and normal flap and aileron positions, do not use the wing tip as a guide - split the trailing edge if you have to make it align with the settings, In general, set the ailerons at normal in the relaxed condition, and they will fly up a bit in flight for a little Wash out effect.

I really miss Vance, it was really cool hearing him spar with other engineers. I remember observing him grilling a certain young Cal Polly Tech engineer.

I can also confirm this is the airfoil for the TR-1, I plotted it earlier this year and made cradles to support the cantilever wing when I moved my TR-1C to my house. It has straight lines between 75% and 100% from the leading edge. The wing fit the cradles like a kid glove (not OJs).

The cusp was removed to make it easier to assemble the flaps and ailerons, although some builders still had trouble building this keep it simple airplane - I have two different size ailerons with two different contours and my flaps are 1/2 and inch longer in cord with a weird looking trailing edge! I guess the only way to make assembly fail safe would have been to prove builders with control surface spars and ribs!

On the subject of TR-4 elevator movement - That seems to be a development problem that never was really resolved. The metal control horn piece may have been the same one used in the TR-1. You might think that simply extending the length of the control horn would solve the underside of the horizontal stabilizer clearance issue but that might cause other clearance issues with the rudder control or bulkheads.

I forget exactly what Bob Anderson told me but he either changed the position of the idler bell crank aft of the rear seat or he may have added a second idler bell crank to change the angle of the elevator push tube. Either case at full up elevator the push tube still rubs on the bottom surface of the horizontal stabilizer, it is noticeable when you look into the fuselage opening where the elevator passes through. Attached are  pictures of Bob beautiful ship.

Fabricio - I believe the airfoil for the horizontal tail is NACA 0010.

Mark T.

PS - There is no such airfoil, 65 415, in my Abbott and Van Doenhoff book!!!

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